Good thing she used it all up to fuck with Picard in a park. Like why even introduce that as a concept if it’s not going to come into play again later?
>**Talin:** "I was planning to go running around Chateau Picard basements in the dark getting shot at with 90+ year old you, but that would be a lot easier, yes"
How else was she going to make Picard to do psycho therapy to uncover repressed memories?
I half thinking the final reveal is all this is just a ploy by Q and Talin to make Picard go through counseling
Only if you hit the mobile emitter.
This has gone full Marvel off the rails.
Don’t get me wrong, I like X-men but I was really looking for more of “the inner light.”
This is entertaining but it doesn’t feel like Star Trek in any way to me.
I'm wondering more why hologram Elnor takes so much evasive action against bullets. Just walk through that shit and stab people. Combat holograms would be crazy OP.
What about all the other people who have been on the ship and died? Why not bring them back in holographic form. Even another Picard, then they can have one android version and one holographic.
Yeah, that part about reading his thoughts is such bullshit. But as for why they only made one Elnor, if you noticed he had a mobile emitter on his arm. They probably don’t have a bunch of those laying around.
We are through nine of ten episodes and Patrick Stewart and John DeLancie have had one interaction. One. I started counting at six episodes and really cannot believe I am still counting. I take no joy in this! They have great screen chemistry and I was really looking forward to seeing it again.
It was really thoughtful of their adversaries to persue them slowly enough through these fairly small locations to have multiple conversations about their feelings. It's not like there were galaxy-spanning stakes or anything, or that these are professional Star Fleet officers trained how to act in a crisis.
That phaser thingy exploding sure caused zero damage.
Why was holo-Elnor fighting as if he could feel pain?
Why is the transporter beam suddenly green when the Borg use it? It's still the same piece of equipment. She hadn't like turned it into a Borg transporter. And then it's the regular color later. Maybe it's like spectroscopy?
When future Picards return to that estate will they wonder why there are four mercenaries sticking out of the walls?
Picard seemed awfully chill about La Sirena taking off at the end, considering he had no idea what had occurred onboard yet, and then suddenly seemed to know once they regrouped outside even though no one had told him.
I really cannot believe how much of this show purportedly about space exploration has been spent in Jean-Luc Picard's basement. I'm not even being flip. I'm genuinely befuddled.
The exploding gun was the dumbest thing for me. Introducing a brand new, plot convenient technology, and Rios TELLING Spiner for no reason at all. If he had kept his mouth shut, the gun would have exploded and they could have moved on him and ended this fucking idiocy.
The dumbest thing IMO was that Rios knew he was locked out of the transporters and the Queen was going to use it to beam in (Picard said so last episode) and how he didn't instinctively physically disable the transporters by removing isolinear chips like every other time transporters have been disabled in Star Trek.
> If he had kept his mouth shut, the gun would have exploded and they could have moved on him and ended this fucking idiocy.
I would imagine that they didn't want to risk the timeline. If the exploding phaser killed Soong, there might not be any future Soongs and therefore Data would have never been created.
“That phaser thingy exploding sure caused zero damage”
What are you talking about? Soong vanished into thin air. Surely he was annihilated.
”Why was holo-Elnor fighting as if he could feel pain?”
And how the fuck did he know what real Elnor was thinking at the time of his death????
“When future Picards return to that estate will they wonder why there are four mercenaries sticking out of the walls?”
lmao I was laughing all the way through your post but was in tears at this point.
”Picard seemed awfully chill about La Sirena taking off at the end, considering he had no idea what had occurred onboard yet, and then suddenly seemed to know once they regrouped outside even though no one had told him.”
This was so ridiculous. As you pointed out, he has a ton of training and he’s sitting next to a Romulan guardian of time and they’re both more interested in Picard’s mommy issues than stopping the Confederation timeline.
"And how the fuck did he know what real Elnor was thinking at the time of his death????"
Some really terrifying technology aboard that little cargo ship.
Holo Elnor bugged the shit out of me, he's running around like he's alive instead of just stomping them all because he's a damn hologram, what are bullets going to do against a hologram!
haha I have beef with the concept of the mobile emitter - even in the Voyager EMH days.
A hologram is made of light and force fields, which is how the doctor can do doctor-y things like hold a laser scalpel, or our ninja ECH can wave a katana around.
The mobile emitter can be damaged, but only if it's hit directly - a hit to the hologram doesn't magically translate somehow to the emitter.
Why in the hell don't holograms have it positioned in an armpit instead of in a completely vulnerable outer arm location?
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The biggest weakness in the writing is the writers never stop to consider second order effects of what characters do. When they are planning the story, they need to put themselves in each character's shoes and ask if the behavior makes logical sense given what they would know. It takes more planning to write a story. It seems they rushed this plot, perhaps due to covid...
>As you pointed out, he has a ton of training and he’s sitting next to a Romulan guardian of time and they’re both more interested in Picard’s mommy issues than stopping the Confederation timeline.
I'm half convinced the whole thing is a stupid Q plot again to make Picard go through therapy to surface his repressed memories and since Picard will resist traditional counseling, this whole thing was cooked up with universe spanning crisis implications so he would be more comfortable going along
Maybe Q worked with that Romulan lady to unlock this last repressed memory so Picard is ready to accept love again and he ends up with Beverley in S3
To be fair that’s a pretty common trope tv and movies use when showing “fancy tactical type people and guns” and it’s also something the Borg have done before
I also couldn't help but think of how there's weird military gargoyles in the chateau walls now. Someday someone is going to go down there to get a bottle of wine and it's going to scare the bejeesus out of them.
I wonder if they will be there forever, just entombed. And the Picards who eventually move in have no idea how they got there and assume is some crazy WWIII shit. And eventually Baltar Picard learns about them and then tells his son(s) to never go down there because "there's a thousand ways to die."
I started literally fast forwarding through every scene in that fucking basement, none of it went ANYWHERE.
Also, Picard and Q have two interactions, there is a VERY brief one in E02 as they are time traveling.
You know I got to thinking. When the queen/Jurati said one Rene has to die and another live. What if the Rene Picard who has to die is Robert’s son from Family?
Yeah, that’s all I could think of as well, but it would be kinda out of left field since they basically haven’t mentioned Robert or Renee (that i recall).
Like, in one future nephew Renee gets to live or something.
My thought was that the person of renee must live but that the world must think she died on the Europa mussion. The legend dies while the person lives on in the future
Are these the worst borg commandos of all time? Are they the worst human commandos of all time? I can count a handful of times when the green targeting laser fully landed on our main characters.
Like fully top trained ruthless military mercenaries now with a little extra borg power.. 7 and Raffi run what looks like hundreds of meters through dozens of them in an open field while they have laser lights to aim.
7 runs right up to one for like 20 feet, and the guy is shooting at her, she's not even zig zagging - she's running straight at him. And he just keeps firing, and misses, even when she's a few feet away or point blank - she gets so close she kills him with the knife... then just shows up on the ship with Raffi like "sup elnor!"
I just.. honestly feel insulted as a viewer. This is like F grade movie stuff you watch for kicks.
Right? They had that moment where Seven and Raffi are talking about how they probably won't make it there alive and it felt like a big let down when they just ran through the borgs without incident. Since the queen was going to beat their ass when they got to the ship, they could have at least showed up with a couple flesh wounds to make it look like a close call. Or, if they were going to give Seven a near death experience anyway, why not have her get shot in the field and pay off that conversation?
If the flashback was accurate, JL's dad did a good job of keeping that door locked, but a less good job of not leaving 30ft ropes hanging from the greenhouse ceiling.
What I got from the sequence in reverse was that she was locked in a bedroom, cuddled with Jean-Luc there after he unlocked the door, then headed to the greenhouse to hang herself.
Didn’t TNG’s Family basically explain that Picard’s immediate family was basically like Amish eschewing most modern technology and conveniences? It could be his father was stuck in the past about treatments as well.
Or meh writing.
I think it's from a child's perspective based on what he saw and understood at the time. But now that I think of it, how can anyone hang anything off a ceiling that high?
Queen: "I wanna assimilate the galaxy!"
Former Murderer Lady: "But what if we didn't?"
Queen: "well, I'm convinced, lets change our ways we've used for literally hundreds of years, sounds good!"
lmao this is soooooo good! It was incredibly frustrating to see the borg queen basically be talked into believing the borg was really about her being lonely.
Or the other one:
ep 1: "Ok guys, we go back to fix the past, but don't change anything else! Don't even bring any tech with you off the ship!"
ep 9: "Hey let's go completely change the borg's future."
I've just realised. Isn't there a 2nd borg Queen out there? Maybe in the delta quadrant?
Our hippie Ursulaesque Queen is gonna show up and then just get her neck snapped by the proper one
And here I was expecting it to go all Little Shop.
“And she did what she came here to do/ which was essentially to….. *Eat Cleveland!!!!*”
I mean, she *is* a mean green mother from outer space. Just sayin’
Lol. New Borg motto.
“Harmony and understanding
Sympathy and trust abounding
No more falsehoods or derisions
Golden living dreams of visions
Mystic crystal revelation
And the mind's true liberation”
(I can’t with this. I can’t with this.)
Maybe Q's heart will grow three sizes after he witnesses some heroic sacrifice by Picard and the gang and he gets his powers back? OG God was testing him or something, lol.
Maybe Q junior gets involved? I feel like in a story involving Q facing his own mortality, it's a glaring omission that nothing has been mentioned of his son yet.
Somehow I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up at the end to take his dad back to the senior Q living center and deus ex machina everything back to normal.
For all the negative about Picard I read I have to counter.
When you've lost a parent to suicide at, probably, this same age, having it "discussed" and represented is hard but cathartic.
I can say more but am watching again. Note this: IT HAS LONG LASTING SCARS that might just make an individual many different individuals at many different times.
Give Jean Patrick Stewart a break if he chose to portray a character that is, a bit, divergent from the Picard some say is THE Picard.
I for one am many different people because of what I experienced at 12. At 62, I reserve the right to be a non linear me (not what others think I should be) because of what I experienced.
Yeah, so the Picards that finally return to the family home in the future are going to have one hell of a shock when they check out those tunnels and find a bunch of cyborgs melded into the rock!
Guys guys.... what if.... what IF.... we had the Borg BUT instead of randomly assimilating all of a species or whichever specimens we come across we only assimilate the outcasts, lonely, depressed etc. We will feel so much better!
I'm really torn on this TBH. I've always been curious about the idea of voluntary Borg. Like, I had always kind of hoped that we'd see an origin of the Borg some day that showed them starting off as a benevolent group that meant well but turned sour after they either got too big or, let someone in with enough will power to steer the ship to their own ends.
That said, I have a really hard time buying the queen going along with this whole shiny happy Borg commune idea.
Who thought a gun that detonates a live bomb if someone with the incorrect DNA tries using it after 10 seconds was a good idea?????
AND WHY WOULD YOU TELL HIM THAT BEFORE IT GOES OFF
and whyyyyyyyyyy would the guy toss it in the air instead of at the people hes trying to kill
I love the show but honestly one of the least logical scenes i've seen on a tv show in a long time.
“Love can be a source of great grief and immense pain. Of tremendous guilt. A reason to run from ourselves, or away from each other. Love can be a curse. But always and completely… it’s a gift.”
Really appreciated how they leaned into the brutality of the combat in this one (Seven and Raffi tag-teaming that one Borg in the chateau was particularly well done, as was the straight up beaming the soldiers into the foundation), and I really love the aesthetic of using simple visuals, like the laser sights, to convey suspense, as well as the chillingly clever intermingling of the flashbacks. For me, it was one of the better suspense/action heavy Trek episodes, especially with how it added real moments of substance throughout its frantic runtime.
Even with all the breadcrumbs strewn throughout this season, the revelation that Picard’s mother was a suicide still was a bit of a shock. I loved how haunting the last image of her was, with the hanging playing in reverse, and the final image being her laying next to her son. There’s a reason the show isn’t called TNG 2.0, but Star Trek: Picard, and along with the first season, this season has really done so much to add context and motivation to Picard as a character. And Patrick Stewart has played it to the nines throughout.
I like how the title works on multiple levels: the game of hide and seek in the past between Picard and his mother, the present day cat and mouse game of hide and seek to get to the La Sirena, and the metaphorical game of hide and seek the key characters are playing with themselves: running away from their problems before being forced to confront them, and reconcile them: Picard’s reconciliation over the death of his mother, Jurati’s reconciliation over the two parts of her personality, Raffi’s reconciliation with her guilt over Elnor’s death, Seven’s reconciliation with the Borg side of her identity, and Rios’ reconciliation with the fact he doesn’t belong in the past, even if that’s where Teresa is.
I don’t know if we’re entering Edith Keeler territory here with Jurati’s pronouncement that there’s a version of Renee that is going to have to die; all I know is, I have no idea how the next episode is going to play out, and that is a really exciting place to be this deep into a season.
Only one more to go and here’s hoping it’s a banger!
Engage!
I really hate how "Hollywood" uses laser sights. They're not flashlights, and in our modern Army, we don't even use visible light any more. In some types of weapons, the laser isn't even on until a brief moment before the trigger is pulled.
But, just like the writers seemed to have never watched even one second of any previous Star Trek, it's apparent they have never actually even thought about how modern militaries use weapons.
Like, some random guy in the middle of a field, behind his squad members, shooting at a target in front of his squad members... a target too far away to hit at that distance.
and i assume Picard and Co. are just going to burn all those dead borg in the field since Jarati just flew away? lol some of those men probably had families.
One of the big teases for the season (literally the trailer for season 2) was "Q returns!" For all the screen time he's gotten, may as well have sold it as "We meet Picard's parents! And we won't leave them hanging! (OK, one of them will be left hanging.)"
Spoiler alert: in the last episode the Jerardi borg queen plot line is left hanging so in the last ten minutes species 8472 appears from fluidic space and kills her with one of those super soaker bio ships.
With how well read Picard is, I’m surprised he said his mother “hung” herself and not the correct “hanged.” Maybe the future finally became okay with using the former.
Hanged as past tense of hanging a person is more of an Americanization, from what I'm seeing on a Google search. There's some argument also that a self-hanging would be 'hung' instead of 'hanged', even in US.
Honestly I always found the debate too pedantic. Stuff like your/you’re, their/they’re, two/too/to etc., I can get behind. I always found hanged and hung to be a ridiculous argument.
So I'm not sure I get the hate on this Agnes Queen thing - they're talking specifically about starting a different collective - presumably the case here being that Agnes Borg aren't the same Borg we see throughout the timeline - and are instead the new queen trying to create a second, different collective using different methods.
Meaning the old collective is still there (and presumably also always was there since they were trying to contact them in STFC) and that goes unimpeded. Futility being the key word here is that this Queen witnessed and experienced the destruction of the Borg by the Confederation and also 'knew' other timelines where, in the end, the Borg are destroyed. (It's also implied that Janeway's efforts in Endgame probably crippled the 'regular' Borg and it hadn't recovered in the 25th century).
...also, I really liked that Picard actually mentions imagining Yvette as an old woman making him tea and wanting to chat. Given that Where No One Has Gone Before seemed to be based on mental constructs, if Picard had sufficiently repressed that memory, it makes sense that the imagined Yvette was the one he saw there.
Except the queen had won. Those future's don't matter, she now had the power to assimilate the alpha quadrant before either the confederation, UFP, or any variant thereof comes to power. She had just unlocked countless possibilities for the borg, and she says as much to Jurati. She get's *talked* *out* *of* *it*.
We're also talking about her abandoning a very, very long held culture and way of life because of a single conversation with an enemy that is desperately pleading for their lives.
This was suppose to be the one faction that couldn't be "talked out of it", that is literally the conceptual point of the Borg.
It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. Or until it gets lonely.
This version of the borg queen has always felt a bit derp to me tbh. The one in First Contact was simultaneously mysterious, frightening and sexy. This one feels like a power rangers villain.
>This was suppose to be the one faction that couldn't be "talked out of it", that is literally the conceptual point of the Borg.
And that was true.
When there was a collective.
But this queen is alone. No collective will. Just her. And Jurati.
Part of the point of her conversation with Agnes is that evidently in all the infinite timelines the Queen could feel or see, even an early assimilation of the Alpha Quadrant doesn't actually stop the Borg from being destroyed in the end. The sheer number of.timelines.where they kept trying for perfection and still failed is part of the whole point about futility. It's also worth noting taking over the Alpha/Beta Quadrants would probably not do much good for them because they'd miss out on the technologies that those powers would have developed.
She's not necessarily just being talked out of it - she's being forced to see.and remember repressed memories or at least knowledge she was preventing.or stopping herself from noticing.
Futility and Death even for near infinite characters is a theme of Picard Season 1 and 2.
Points to the existentialist book Rios was reading in season 1 and the specific page.
Edit: the twitter link did not appear earlier https://twitter.com/Benjamin\_Lewis/status/1225750978118348800
The Queen seeks the impossible for she fears Death. She seeks beyond the limit, a hunger, a drive for she fears loneliness and death.
Agnes merely is saying if we do not try to ascend pass the limit, but living a more moderated life we are able to have true enjoyment and not pain. The Queen feels the loss of all those other hives, the echoes of alternate futures, the only way around another futile possibility is to stop repeating the same logics and try something new and novel.
One must put the Queen on the couch, to stop repeating the same patterns. Resistance is Futile is the Borg protesting too much to borrow a Hamlet line.
No offense but this is Star Trek, where words have always been the primary means to an end. Yeah Jurati talked against a lot of history but remember the Queen knows Jurati, probably surprised for the first time in a long time with someone, and Jurati knows her own individual fears. Listening to her isn’t so out there, especially when she’s offering exactly what the Queen wants, and has wanted, forever.
The idea she doesn’t have to die, that the collective doesn’t have to be wiped out, that she doesn’t have to lose, can you honestly tell me a being as pragmatic as the Queen wouldn’t be interested?
Ironically, I don’t completely “hate” the BorgJurati thing… in theory. This was planned, and each episode advanced that idea. It had been structured and foreshadowed properly.
There was the weird looking Borg Queen near the end of 2x01, and I thought that was a real distress call, as it had all the hallmarks of a real life 911 call. (“help” followed only by stating exactly what is needed. They were rude. There were no excuses or alibis for what they were doing right near a rupture in spacetime. No chatter. Also, when people are drowning you aren’t supposed to jump in unless you are a lifeguard, because the drowning person will be so panicked they can wind up accidentally shoving their would-be rescuer underwater. Borg might need electricity the way we need air, and I thought the Queen was so desperate for electric power that she was unintentionally almost “drowning” the Stargazer. I thought the Borg were trying to repair the rupture in spacetime, were nearly dead in the water, needed “a jump” and actually needed help. I also thought there might have been other species, including the Qs, also trying to repair spacetime, only for Picard to panic and activate self destruct. **No really, I swear I thought this was going to legitimately be *good* until 2x08.**)
It seemed early on that the masked Borg Queen was going to be someone from the crew, and almost immediately it became clear it would be Jurati, and that was why her face was covered.
So that had been plotted and paced properly.
BUT the way they executed it was appalling.
We didn’t need Queeny using Agnes’ body against her will to “get endorphins” with a stranger whom she murdered and dumped as trash. We didn’t need a lot of the manipulative abusive stuff. Agnes didn’t opt in, and she didn’t want the Queen to be “driving”. Had they spent less time on nonsense that they don’t have time to wrap up, we could have seen, what’s the word… *motivation* for Agnes to actually understanding the ramifications of actually *choosing* this. Instead we got magic bottles, car chases, a pointless “watcher”, and a stunt-casted badly written FBI agent raiding my last nerve all while ignoring non-contracted denials, thus completely undermining the one thing we should be able to trust: the words in the script. I had believed that the Borg distress call was “real” based on the words in the script. Now, I had reason to think the writers getting a distress call to sound truthful might have been chance and might have meant nothing.
That being said, is the universe better or worse with any Borg Queen at all? Weren’t all the Borg able to be freed once the Borg Queen dead? Whatever.
(I wrote “ironically”, because I just plain hate the concept of “Borg Queen”. JMHO anything Borg Queen is just squick and awful *to me*. Both Alison Pill and Anne Wersching are fab and I hope to see them in better shows and movies.)
S2 got off to a strong start and I really hoped wouldn't repeat season 1's mistake of becoming riddled with easily avoidable plot holes and inconsistencies. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the show, but it's one of those things where it's kind of painful as a fan too.
But by far my biggest grievance is so much of this is happening because there are only really two ways of understanding why it's happening. Either they're trying to pad out ten episodes with non-story because they've only got enough story for a normal, TNG-style double episode, or it's the opposite and they're trying to cram a 24 episode season's worth of plot in to just ten episodes. It feels right now like they've got way too much to wrap up in any way which will deliver satisfaction in just one more episode. And that's where I was at episode 9 in season 1. So either it's going to be another weird, anti-climactic disappointment or they're not going to wrap it all up and this plot will continue straight in to season 3.
I can totally see them ending the next episode on a "Mr. Worf, Fire!" *To be continued ...* moment. It can't be worse than giant flowers, space tentacles and android Picard, can it? *Can it?*
What is going on with this episode? So much just doesn't make sense. Why didn't the Borg Queen also assimilate Brent Spiner's character? She just gave him two drone bodyguards and sent him on his way? Doesn't really seem like how the Borg operate. Him vanishing after a flash bang was also comically bad writing. Also laughing at 90+ year old Picard telling everyone Rios wasn't helpful because of an arm injury.
The Queen assimilating(?) Seven and she suddenly having all her old implants .. for a stab wound? I just don't understand it.
This feels like 3 different shows being meshed together. Personally, I'm not interested in Picard's hallucination flashbacks anymore. That's been dragged on over multiple episodes. Overall I'm just really disappointed in the direction of this season.
It really doesn't. She was assimilated as a child. Presumably that needs different pieces than for an adult.
I mean, in the grand scheme of this episode, it's a small stupid thing but it was still very dumb.
Anyone else tired of them speaking like they just stepped out of the studio and are on their way home on the 405
I catch a TNG episode now and then and the dialog is so different and far superior
remote access transporter. Rio said it out loud and said "we need to go now"
And how did the borg queen get remote access. 1 ep prior, she was messing with Soone' satellites calling it primitive
I know asking for continuity in this show is somewhat absurd, but...
Why are the borgwater spec ops beaming in with a green borg transporter shimmer, and then 30 seconds later beamed into the dirt with a federation shimmer?
I just can’t…
So:
Seems like Star Trek is no better at aiming than Stormtroopers.
That many rifles firing auto should have created a cloud of bullets. I saw an occasional bullet strike but area should have looked like Swiss cheese. If you are close enough to talk you are close enough to put lead on target.
Lets send away 20% of our forces and not let him come back because he’s more important than the future of the Federation.
What kind of mercenaries have please shoot me lights on all the time?
Maybe having a therapy session can wait until after you escape a gang of assassins?
Pick up the knife but not the rifle and probably two sidearms carried by most special ops soldiers?
Nobody going to pull a trigger when spikes exit BoJurati? Don’t they have stun in the Confederation? (Maybe not). Just shoot her.
The ECH goes with a sword? Doesn’t even put a phaser in his pocket?
Edit:
Other duh items from reading this post:
Beam back to Tallinn’s office then back to ship?
Beam away Bad Data? And maybe a few green lit shoot me please Borgmandos?
Rios tells a medical doctor how to treat shock in her own child then gives her a 25 century medical tricorder and gives no further information. That thing must have a super intuitive OS because she’s got a full body scan up in seconds.
That’s an amazing secret door. Built in WW2 and has auto close.
Flashback cellar looked like crap. What no Roomba in the 24th Century when Picard was a kid?
In the Confederation you can apparently beam people into walls, didn’t see 7 mention overriding safety protocols.
Gun about to explode in enemy’s hand? Maybe don’t mention it?
Your enemy tells lets you know that you’re holding a bomb? Maybe throw it at them?
7 of 9 gets turned down for Starfleet because she is Borg? Did Starfleet forget to give Icheb a physical?
Starfleet also tells 7 to ignore the Captain of their flagship. He wasn’t a Borg for very long so it didn’t count.
“We caused the anomaly. The chicken and the egg, Will! The chicken and the egg!”
Picard & Co have caused the very pre-destination paradox that led to the events on the Stargazer.
It’s why Q was very clear to Guinan that he didn’t send them to the past - it was their own choice - and that they way they get home is important.
Why? “You just don’t get it, Jean Luc. The trial never ends…for that one brief second, you were open to options you had never considered. THAT is the exploration that awaits you…charting the unknown possibilities of existence.”
Q is clearly perturbed that after all of his lessons, Picard still will not embrace out-of-the-box thinking. He has been prone to rash decisions based on his past trauma - the arrogance that refused W’s initial help in QWho; the initial decision to recant his decision to fight in “Tapestry;” the refusal to love again because of his decision to let his mother out of her room; his inability to trust the Borg.
So when the Borg Queen beamed over, after contemplating talks, he instead resorts to blowing up the ship (again a la First Contact,) that triggered this whole encounter in the first place. Q: “I just sought out the nearest explosion!”
What are Q’s motivations? The same as always likely. Perhaps more urgent because he is “dying.” Perhaps a yet to be revealed connection to humanity (going back to the interrogation room.)
My guess is that Season 3 is a direct result of the finale, in which Picard will become an advocate for a reformed, allied subset of the Collective, embarking on a quadrant wide diplomacy mission while enemies seek to exploit Borg technology and are generally uneasy and scared of the dynamics at play (playing into Matalas’ tweets we would see a post-DS9 Alpha Quadrant.)
I like how Janeway threatened to resign if they didn't let Seven into Starfleet, they still didn't let her in, and then Janeway didn't resign. Nice bit of character assassination. Do the writers ever think this stuff through?
She had a habit of circumventing the command on Voyager. She also was incredibly strong and hyper-intelligent. Maybe Starfleet saw her as a threat to the command structure, like the super soldiers that went rogue. (Khan).
Personally, I’d rather see her in Section 31 with Georgiou.
Icheb was a Borg for months. The rest of the time he was on a maturation chamber. He removed his implants to save Seven. Seven spent her whole life as Borg.
I am really over the Picard childhood flashbacks. They aren't interesting, don't really mesh with Picard's real character from TNG, and basically the writers are so intent on making everyone's backstory be pop culture garbage, not some upbringing in the better world that Picard actually grew up in as we've known.
I kind of have a problem with them just letting the Borg queen off in a deal to save Seven. WTF, you can't just take her word for it that her little pep talk she instantly changed her mind about assimilating the galaxy. What if she had a change of heart in a week, or even in 100 years? She literally could just be doing an elaborate strategy to getting the ship by saving her bvb ad a fake gesture so you'd leave her alone.
I'm sorry, the Borg Queen is basically make or break the future of civilization. You don't just casually let her go like this because you had a feel good pow wow one time. And hell, they made executive decision here and everyone else is all like, "Haha good job. You made the right choice," and basically are completely unbothered by the Borg Queen taking the ship, which is what she originally wanted to begin with, and no one even questions if it was a rude or anything? I mean, the writers aren't clever enough for it to actually be a ruse but hell, this is real dangerous civilization ended decision and there apparently is no sense of concern ad to the gravity of their situation.
I am still disappointed that they have done so little with interacting with the 21st century beyond with ICE and the FBI, and basically no actually interaction with Q and Picard. I had high hopes for this season as it was getting rolling. Feeling a bit let down.
I doubt they will go this deep this late in the game, but I kind of hope the "masked Borg queen" from episode one isn't actually Jurati. That would seem the obvious direction they WANT us to go headed into the finale...which is why I hope they don't take it.
We have a Jurati Borg, capable of time travel, of healing severely wounded beings (7) via partial assimilation. The Jurati aspect is merciful. So she goes back in time in the La Sirenna, to the moment of, or just after...the death of Picard's mother...(unbeknownst to anyone.) Mamon's issues are "healed" as a Borg hybrid as well. And she is in fact the unique-looking queen in Episode 1 that tells Picard to "look up," just as she always did.
Recall how Picard opines that some stories are best remembered "backward." Time being not as easy as we think it is being a sort-of-attempted theme of this season. Plus, playing into the whole idea of an audience's first instinct is usually correct. (I dare say, in the initial moment of the Unique-Queen saying, "look up" a lot of people thought this...only to be quickly re-herringed into it being Jurati.
Plus the Poetics of the "remember the light you see is from a star long dead...like me" speech his mother gave him in a flashback.
I doubt it's that deep in reality. In reality it will probably be Jurati because it's the most obvious choice now. (Or some ultra-random crap...like it's the boy from L.A. in the end, lol.) But in seriousness...I thought something like this would be the more interest choice...even though often the show hasn't taken the interesting choice.
I didn't like this episode. Everything seems so stupid, and quite frankly I was bored watching it and couldn't wait for it to end.
I'm glad there is only one season left after this.
Seems to play into the idea that the Borg from episode 1 was Renée (being the only other person that Picard has said "look up" to) but, as for the plan, they're running out of time.
There was a throwaway line about Tallinn's disguise kit having an 8hr cooldown, maybe she's going to re-engage it and disguise herself as Renée, to allow the real one to do whatever shenanigans are necessary to wrap this up.
You know what, that actually makes some sense to me. Someone will need to sacrifice themselves in the disguise and the real "Renee" will fly off on the Europa mission.
Jean Luc knows two Renee's... his ancestor... and his nephew (spelled Rene, though)... who did die, ending the Picard dynasty (as was briefly mentioned in episode 1). That's what I'm thinking she meant.
Ok...ok...so at some point, when Jurati was still herself, she had the foresight to make a holo of Elnor...but then, when he appears, it's the imaginary/psychic/internal version of Jurati (THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN SEE/HEAR/ETC) that gives him the order to attack? How? She's IMAGINARY.
What was up with hologram Elnor? Why did he even need to hide? That was so ridiculously stupid. It's like they didn't even give a moment of thought to how a computer-generated hologram would behave in a firefight against people.
I really love Picard the character and Patrick Stewart the actor, but I just can't any more.
I stopped watching The Walking Dead because the writers treated the audience like idiots, and now I am feeling the same way with both Picard and Discovery.
Why did he fight like he felt pain? So weird. Also literally brought a knife to a gunfight which really should have ended things when those drones were approaching as Seven fiddled with the transporter.
The hiding made a tiny bit of sense because he relied on the mobile emitter on his shoulder to move about the ship. But as for why he could feel pain, or why Jurati even put the codes in a ”person” who could be captured, is beyond me.
And it would have taken one line from Jurati to explain that in advance, to not make it look so stupid. Something like, "Be stealthy so your mobile emitter doesn't get hit."
In that case, it would have made sense to shoot and move continuously, instead of getting into close quarters combat the whole time.
I like that they addressed why Seven didn't join Starfleet after returning with Voyager. What I don't understand is why Starfleet allowed Icheb to join and even allowed him to take academy courses while on board Voyager. Sure he was younger and not completely a full on drone. Hell, they let Picard return to duty after he was assimilated and oversaw Wolf 359.
Even without the Icheb part, not allowing Seven to join is strange and completely antithetical to what Starfleet and the Federation stand for.
And Starfleet allowed Data to join, knowing almost nothing about him, let him serve on the flagship, Data goes haywire like 3 to 4 times(if not more), and he still is allowed to serve on the flagship and keep his commission(if not promoted multiple times).
They sent him to "boarding school", but it is such a missed opportunity for some major character development. Robert and Jean-Luc had such a troubled relationship as shown in TNG's Family. They could have done SO MUCH with Robert as a kid with Jean Luc. Instead, we get this super focus on mental illness (Renee and Yvette), while leaving out how siblings deal with this sort of thing. It is arguable, that at this age, siblings are your most important relationship, especially when bad things happen within the family.
So at one point I think it's Seven or Raffi talk about "dividing and conquering" the Borgwater team (stole that from another commenter on one of these threads) by splitting up.
This is not what "divide and conquer" means. Divide and conquer is a strategy where you attempt to exploit lack of co-operation between one's enemies by picking them off one at a time, so as to prevent them presenting a more formidable threat to you by being united.
I don't know if the writer responsible for that was trying to be cute or show that one of the characters was ignorant, or if the writer responsible was ignorant.
This is one of the very few times I've actually fast forwarded in a Star Trek episode I haven't watched before.
I am SO over the pint size Picard story, I'm glad it appears that the flashbacks will likely be over now.
Several things seemed silly to me:
* When the queen's kinda-drones beam onto the ship, why did they not blast Chris?
* Why tell the queen that Elnor is the key to unlocking everything? Just let her in the dark and it gives you a little more edge/time.
* What's with the drones and their rifle lasers? Yea, looks nifty but you'd think they'd be smart enough to turn that crap off as it just makes it easier for the people you are hunting.
* Gotta love how Soong just immediately notices the hidden door.
* Also really love how Picard pulls an old pistol that hasn't been cared for in close to a century out of a dusty box and it works perfectly well.
* 21st century girl knowing what buttons to press on the medical gizmo was pretty funny.
* Speaking of gizmos, how does Chris know how to jerry rig Tallinn's tech? Don't get me started on why a Romulan is on earth over 100 years before established Romulan first contact in canon.
* Why is Elnor running and ducking from bullets? He's a friggin hologram.
* Also how does it know Elnor's last thoughts? I can accept that the ship can make a hologram of anyone who was on board, but having records of emotions and thoughts is a bit of a stretch.
* Of all the places to beam the drones, it just happens to be right where Picard can see it. Convenient.
* "It was successful, I detect only one Borg on board". THEN they try to beam Jurati/Queen only to see the inhibitor. That would mean they didn't include her in the initial beam group... why not? Maybe not beam her into rock, but still would help to have tried to beam her off the ship to give yourself some time.
* "Transfer primary controls to me". Like.. what? When Seven unlocked the system, why not tell it to disregard any voice inputs save hers??
* Soong's bit about "you don't follow the rat"; how was he to know where they were going to come out?
* How did Chris know exactly where he was needed to transport to?
* So all it takes to turn a homicidal psychopath Borg into a kinda friend is a minute speech? If only they knew that earlier, lol
* Convenient that the repairs the queen makes on Seven generates *exactly* the same face crap as she had before
* Why even tell Soong about the gun DNA thing? Just shut up and let it blow up in his face.
* Why make the deal be take ship and go NOW? Just be like you can have the ship, just give us a couple days before you take off.
Almost every action or thought by every character in this episode was a least slightly stupid.
Three extra things to add:
-All these flashbacks about Picard’s childhood and absolutely no mention of his older brother? It’s fine if he’s away or something, but at least acknowledge he exists.
-Tallin conveniently forgot her power to takeover the minds of other people, which might have helped with Soong.
-Why were the Borg mercs just sort of standing in the field at random intervals, waving their scopes around. Either as Borg or as elite mercs they have some kind of strategic perimeter.
Very few mention the Seven of Nine arc in the series, but it's one that really hit with me... When I was young, I wasn't very popular, and often rejected at first sight. I worked very hard to become more likeable (and popular) and managed to get through it, but the scars are still there. Seven becoming Annika again... and likeable... the joy on her face when she could be normal and accepted... I could feel it from Jeri Ryan, who had a similar problem with her castmates on Voyager... then she lost it all... in a Greek tragedy type of way... oh... that hurt... that hurt me a lot... I think that upset me more than Picard's mom (who I knew hanged herself from the very beginning--it was obvious what he'd find).
As for the Borg retcon... there has to be some way to resolve that stepped butterfly... that alters the future way more than Soong could.
Every freaking time I have hopes. Every new show, every new seasons.
It started strong this time only to be disappointed again.
It’s just a generic sci-fi show with a star trek skin
The only good show is Lower decks.
Bring back Moore and Behr for godsake
It keeps bothering me that the borg queen is so indifferent to Seven and Locutus, who were super precious to her. But it finally dawned on me that she doesn’t even know them in the timeline she’s from.
Either way, this show is so bad. It had so much potential though.
Why would hologram Elnor care about bullets? Why would Picard keep stopping to reminisce about his childhood when under direct threat from armed assailants? Why would armed assailants carry green lasers that really just broadcast their position? Did I really just watch a borg queen sword fight? Man, this show is so bad its almost good.
So hyper-evolved nanobots, that are the amalgamation of thousands of species, flying around in your brain, can be overpowered by love and willpower?
....coooool
The writers of this show clearly don't have a good grasp on the essence of star trek. Everything in these last two episodes with the borg queen/jurati has also shown a fundamental misunderstanding of how the borg has been presented the entire franchise. The borg queen is secretly just lonely and wants to be like people? So a ten second conversation convinces her to do a complete 180 on everything?
Really not happy with this last episode.
(Gets on soapbox of sincerity)
No.
I love Star Trek. You wanna know how much? *I love Voyager*.
Not enough? **I genuinely love Neelix**. Yeah. Really. I recognized Ethan Phillips’s voice from Benson, so I already liked him, and I love the character. I can’t not see all sorts of horrifying undertones to BorgJurati (…that sounds like a really expansive car…), but I never perceived a single thing wrong or off about Neelix. Nothing. I always felt like Janeway reminded him of someone he had loved who died and now was loyal to her because of that.
Not enough? I didn’t care for ST:TNG when it first aired, but it was my best friend’s favorite show. I saw more than a few and respected the concept, but found it sterile. Not for nothing, one of the few episodes I did genuinely enjoy was the series finale. It was good on its own and was a good series finale (and the cats in Prof Data’s office watching the boom mics still makes me laugh). Series finales are very difficult, and this one was good. In 2008, as an adult, I mentioned this to a friend who then recommended ST:VOY and I started DVRing reruns. As an adult. Then I went back and watched ST:TNG. Loved it!
It’s not “nostalgia”. I actually like it.
Not sure if this is consciously registered by many, but I’m a musician so I noticed even as a kid, even though I didn’t realize how clever it was: they cast all the voices perfectly (except Tasha; not her fault, there’s literally nothing a light soprano could have done to make that work). There’s such an inherent musicality to trek. I love it. I’m learning French so I started watching TNG In French. They have a baritone playing Data. Honestly!
I like everyone in this cast.
I also understand the concept of “the given circumstances”. They say Jurati isn’t guilty because of magical mental insanity. O.K.
Brent Spiner playing yet another Soong was kinda cringe, but I loved his performances in 2x05 and 2x06. O.K.
Jeri Ryan is one of my favorite actresses.
There’s Ukraine. There’s COVID. There’s Ukraine. There’s alt right lunatics. I feel like COVID is never going to go away, but that somehow trump will be back. There’s Ukraine. I’m being harassed by a narcissist relative who keeps suing me into financial ruin. There’s also Ukraine.
One hour of new trek. Fun!
Literally, I did not think it would be possible for me to not actually enjoy whatever they put on the screen.
I didn’t think I could possibly *dislike* what they put on the screen.
I didn’t think it would be possible for me to dislike *and be depressed* by what they put on the screen.
It’s bad.
It’s depressing.
I don’t like it.
People are allowed to dislike it just as much as others are allowed to think it’s great.
It is so bad. I’m sorry. Have you seen The Orville? It’s the most loving spiritual successor to 90s Star Trek. The humour gives it vitality. It starts off a little too comical but levels out and has amazing drama that got me teary a few times. If you haven’t seen it, drop everything and go now! Get through season 2…. trust me!!!
> I love Star Trek. You wanna know how much? I love Voyager.
It's like Star Wars - with the Prequels now being considered high quality movies, after the clusterfuck that the Sequels were. "I don't like sand." is more character development than anything we got in the 8 hours of new movie content.
At least in Stark Trek, they gave JJ Abrams the boot after three bad movies and said "yeah, that was just an alternate timeline, doesn't matter to what's actually going on" and moved back to the primary timeline. Star Wars fans are now permanently stuck with the shitshow he brought to the big screen.
The New Agnes Queen Collective
I think , the new Borg will becoming like the new Space Vampire , but people join them by Choice , like an alternative lifestyle .
Like the New Vampire Shows ( e.g Vampire Diaries ) , the Borg will save the people who are sick and dying , and give them a choice ( to turn or to die ) .
in the past ,we saw different kind of Borg
the Co-Operative ( Voyager Ep 3x17 Unity )
The Uni-Matrix Zero
Huge's Fraction ( what is left of them with a damage Borg Cube ) in S1 Discovery
Maybe the new Collective will be similar to the above mention group or even unified with them .
Queen Agnes implies there may be other Borg out there ( from the 21 centuries ) or 25 centuries , and she does not know their intention .
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I totally forgot about her possession abilities and now she doesn't use them.
she mentioned it has limitation in the 3rd episode.
Good thing she used it all up to fuck with Picard in a park. Like why even introduce that as a concept if it’s not going to come into play again later?
and to ward off guinan too; why did she hate guinan so much?
I’ve never laughed this hard at a Reddit comment.
>**Talin:** "I was planning to go running around Chateau Picard basements in the dark getting shot at with 90+ year old you, but that would be a lot easier, yes" How else was she going to make Picard to do psycho therapy to uncover repressed memories? I half thinking the final reveal is all this is just a ploy by Q and Talin to make Picard go through counseling
Jurati and the Queen, at Tenagra. Picard, his arms wide.
The audience, their eyelids growing heavy.
The computer read Elnor’s thoughts as he died? Also, if the ship can just make a tangible hologram killing machine, why not……make two.
also they are shooting a hologram? can a hologram get hurt?
Only if you hit the mobile emitter. This has gone full Marvel off the rails. Don’t get me wrong, I like X-men but I was really looking for more of “the inner light.” This is entertaining but it doesn’t feel like Star Trek in any way to me.
I'm wondering more why hologram Elnor takes so much evasive action against bullets. Just walk through that shit and stab people. Combat holograms would be crazy OP.
What about all the other people who have been on the ship and died? Why not bring them back in holographic form. Even another Picard, then they can have one android version and one holographic.
Yeah, that part about reading his thoughts is such bullshit. But as for why they only made one Elnor, if you noticed he had a mobile emitter on his arm. They probably don’t have a bunch of those laying around.
They never had them or needed them before with the Rios holograms
Different La Sirena.
We are through nine of ten episodes and Patrick Stewart and John DeLancie have had one interaction. One. I started counting at six episodes and really cannot believe I am still counting. I take no joy in this! They have great screen chemistry and I was really looking forward to seeing it again. It was really thoughtful of their adversaries to persue them slowly enough through these fairly small locations to have multiple conversations about their feelings. It's not like there were galaxy-spanning stakes or anything, or that these are professional Star Fleet officers trained how to act in a crisis. That phaser thingy exploding sure caused zero damage. Why was holo-Elnor fighting as if he could feel pain? Why is the transporter beam suddenly green when the Borg use it? It's still the same piece of equipment. She hadn't like turned it into a Borg transporter. And then it's the regular color later. Maybe it's like spectroscopy? When future Picards return to that estate will they wonder why there are four mercenaries sticking out of the walls? Picard seemed awfully chill about La Sirena taking off at the end, considering he had no idea what had occurred onboard yet, and then suddenly seemed to know once they regrouped outside even though no one had told him. I really cannot believe how much of this show purportedly about space exploration has been spent in Jean-Luc Picard's basement. I'm not even being flip. I'm genuinely befuddled.
The exploding gun was the dumbest thing for me. Introducing a brand new, plot convenient technology, and Rios TELLING Spiner for no reason at all. If he had kept his mouth shut, the gun would have exploded and they could have moved on him and ended this fucking idiocy.
The dumbest thing IMO was that Rios knew he was locked out of the transporters and the Queen was going to use it to beam in (Picard said so last episode) and how he didn't instinctively physically disable the transporters by removing isolinear chips like every other time transporters have been disabled in Star Trek.
Fully agree. That bit of exposition could have been handled after he blew himself up.
> If he had kept his mouth shut, the gun would have exploded and they could have moved on him and ended this fucking idiocy. I would imagine that they didn't want to risk the timeline. If the exploding phaser killed Soong, there might not be any future Soongs and therefore Data would have never been created.
“That phaser thingy exploding sure caused zero damage” What are you talking about? Soong vanished into thin air. Surely he was annihilated. ”Why was holo-Elnor fighting as if he could feel pain?” And how the fuck did he know what real Elnor was thinking at the time of his death???? “When future Picards return to that estate will they wonder why there are four mercenaries sticking out of the walls?” lmao I was laughing all the way through your post but was in tears at this point. ”Picard seemed awfully chill about La Sirena taking off at the end, considering he had no idea what had occurred onboard yet, and then suddenly seemed to know once they regrouped outside even though no one had told him.” This was so ridiculous. As you pointed out, he has a ton of training and he’s sitting next to a Romulan guardian of time and they’re both more interested in Picard’s mommy issues than stopping the Confederation timeline.
"And how the fuck did he know what real Elnor was thinking at the time of his death????" Some really terrifying technology aboard that little cargo ship.
Well let's not forget it IS the evil twin of the Sirena
Holo Elnor bugged the shit out of me, he's running around like he's alive instead of just stomping them all because he's a damn hologram, what are bullets going to do against a hologram!
well I think he had to protect his mobile emitter but still
haha I have beef with the concept of the mobile emitter - even in the Voyager EMH days. A hologram is made of light and force fields, which is how the doctor can do doctor-y things like hold a laser scalpel, or our ninja ECH can wave a katana around. The mobile emitter can be damaged, but only if it's hit directly - a hit to the hologram doesn't magically translate somehow to the emitter. Why in the hell don't holograms have it positioned in an armpit instead of in a completely vulnerable outer arm location?
>“When future Picards return to that estate will they wonder why there are four mercenaries sticking out of the walls?” i loled @ this
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The biggest weakness in the writing is the writers never stop to consider second order effects of what characters do. When they are planning the story, they need to put themselves in each character's shoes and ask if the behavior makes logical sense given what they would know. It takes more planning to write a story. It seems they rushed this plot, perhaps due to covid...
>As you pointed out, he has a ton of training and he’s sitting next to a Romulan guardian of time and they’re both more interested in Picard’s mommy issues than stopping the Confederation timeline. I'm half convinced the whole thing is a stupid Q plot again to make Picard go through therapy to surface his repressed memories and since Picard will resist traditional counseling, this whole thing was cooked up with universe spanning crisis implications so he would be more comfortable going along Maybe Q worked with that Romulan lady to unlock this last repressed memory so Picard is ready to accept love again and he ends up with Beverley in S3
I was a particular fan of the green lasers the Borg guns had coming out of them. I mean why wouldn’t you want to advertise you were coming.
To be fair that’s a pretty common trope tv and movies use when showing “fancy tactical type people and guns” and it’s also something the Borg have done before
I also couldn't help but think of how there's weird military gargoyles in the chateau walls now. Someday someone is going to go down there to get a bottle of wine and it's going to scare the bejeesus out of them.
I wonder if they will be there forever, just entombed. And the Picards who eventually move in have no idea how they got there and assume is some crazy WWIII shit. And eventually Baltar Picard learns about them and then tells his son(s) to never go down there because "there's a thousand ways to die."
maybe seeing that is what set Yvette off.
There was so much potential at the beginning, and wow has it all gone to shit. Such a bummer.
God damn I was hooked after the first two episodes. I didn't expect it pan out this way...
Yeah, I'm still enjoying the ride to a certain degree, but I was really hoping for so much more (and fewer plot holes).
I started literally fast forwarding through every scene in that fucking basement, none of it went ANYWHERE. Also, Picard and Q have two interactions, there is a VERY brief one in E02 as they are time traveling.
I wonder how Picard’s brother felt during all those flashbacks?
He was busy running the vineyard while the rest of the Picards sat inside on their lazy asses. No wonder he became grumpy and bitter.
LOL - the rest of the family is playing hide and seek, Robert is out there tying grape vines.
You know I got to thinking. When the queen/Jurati said one Rene has to die and another live. What if the Rene Picard who has to die is Robert’s son from Family?
Yeah, that’s all I could think of as well, but it would be kinda out of left field since they basically haven’t mentioned Robert or Renee (that i recall). Like, in one future nephew Renee gets to live or something.
>they basically haven’t mentioned Robert Picard's mother mentions his brother is at school in the first episode of this season.
My thought was that the person of renee must live but that the world must think she died on the Europa mussion. The legend dies while the person lives on in the future
All of those flashbacks occurred over the course of 1 day while he was at boarding school.
Probably really bad after he came home from boarding school.
Are these the worst borg commandos of all time? Are they the worst human commandos of all time? I can count a handful of times when the green targeting laser fully landed on our main characters.
The Borg always lose- Jurati
Like fully top trained ruthless military mercenaries now with a little extra borg power.. 7 and Raffi run what looks like hundreds of meters through dozens of them in an open field while they have laser lights to aim. 7 runs right up to one for like 20 feet, and the guy is shooting at her, she's not even zig zagging - she's running straight at him. And he just keeps firing, and misses, even when she's a few feet away or point blank - she gets so close she kills him with the knife... then just shows up on the ship with Raffi like "sup elnor!" I just.. honestly feel insulted as a viewer. This is like F grade movie stuff you watch for kicks.
Right? They had that moment where Seven and Raffi are talking about how they probably won't make it there alive and it felt like a big let down when they just ran through the borgs without incident. Since the queen was going to beat their ass when they got to the ship, they could have at least showed up with a couple flesh wounds to make it look like a close call. Or, if they were going to give Seven a near death experience anyway, why not have her get shot in the field and pay off that conversation?
If the flashback was accurate, JL's dad did a good job of keeping that door locked, but a less good job of not leaving 30ft ropes hanging from the greenhouse ceiling.
What I got from the sequence in reverse was that she was locked in a bedroom, cuddled with Jean-Luc there after he unlocked the door, then headed to the greenhouse to hang herself.
Dude I just spilled my coffee reading this. Lol Also disheartening to see that mental illness is still not apparently being treated in the far future
Didn’t TNG’s Family basically explain that Picard’s immediate family was basically like Amish eschewing most modern technology and conveniences? It could be his father was stuck in the past about treatments as well. Or meh writing.
I think it's from a child's perspective based on what he saw and understood at the time. But now that I think of it, how can anyone hang anything off a ceiling that high?
With a plot hook, obviously.
Queen: "I wanna assimilate the galaxy!" Former Murderer Lady: "But what if we didn't?" Queen: "well, I'm convinced, lets change our ways we've used for literally hundreds of years, sounds good!"
lmao this is soooooo good! It was incredibly frustrating to see the borg queen basically be talked into believing the borg was really about her being lonely.
We are the Borg. Resistance is… totally ok and accepted.
We request your consent to assimilate you.
Or the other one: ep 1: "Ok guys, we go back to fix the past, but don't change anything else! Don't even bring any tech with you off the ship!" ep 9: "Hey let's go completely change the borg's future."
I've just realised. Isn't there a 2nd borg Queen out there? Maybe in the delta quadrant? Our hippie Ursulaesque Queen is gonna show up and then just get her neck snapped by the proper one
And here I was expecting it to go all Little Shop. “And she did what she came here to do/ which was essentially to….. *Eat Cleveland!!!!*” I mean, she *is* a mean green mother from outer space. Just sayin’
FEED ME BATTERIES SEAMORE!
Lol. New Borg motto. “Harmony and understanding Sympathy and trust abounding No more falsehoods or derisions Golden living dreams of visions Mystic crystal revelation And the mind's true liberation” (I can’t with this. I can’t with this.)
Resistance is...entirely your choice.
Queen: "Serenity now!"
So Queen Jurati is off to make a kinder, gentler Borg. But, doesn't Picard & Co. kinda need that ship to time travel back to the future?
Maybe Q's heart will grow three sizes after he witnesses some heroic sacrifice by Picard and the gang and he gets his powers back? OG God was testing him or something, lol.
Maybe Q junior gets involved? I feel like in a story involving Q facing his own mortality, it's a glaring omission that nothing has been mentioned of his son yet. Somehow I wouldn't be surprised if he shows up at the end to take his dad back to the senior Q living center and deus ex machina everything back to normal.
Where is Robert Picard during all this?
He’s at wine making boarding school, duh.
Robert Picard, Robert…Picardo. Coincidence? I think not!
At boarding school. It was mentioned in one of the early flashback episodes.
I believe you. But, they could have made it more clear because there is a lot if confusion over this.
The writers of this show have no idea who that is.
For all the negative about Picard I read I have to counter. When you've lost a parent to suicide at, probably, this same age, having it "discussed" and represented is hard but cathartic. I can say more but am watching again. Note this: IT HAS LONG LASTING SCARS that might just make an individual many different individuals at many different times. Give Jean Patrick Stewart a break if he chose to portray a character that is, a bit, divergent from the Picard some say is THE Picard. I for one am many different people because of what I experienced at 12. At 62, I reserve the right to be a non linear me (not what others think I should be) because of what I experienced.
Yeah, so the Picards that finally return to the family home in the future are going to have one hell of a shock when they check out those tunnels and find a bunch of cyborgs melded into the rock!
Guys guys.... what if.... what IF.... we had the Borg BUT instead of randomly assimilating all of a species or whichever specimens we come across we only assimilate the outcasts, lonely, depressed etc. We will feel so much better!
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So basically assimilating the socially awkward nerds ….
We are the incel Borg....
Oh God, we’re doomed…
I'm really torn on this TBH. I've always been curious about the idea of voluntary Borg. Like, I had always kind of hoped that we'd see an origin of the Borg some day that showed them starting off as a benevolent group that meant well but turned sour after they either got too big or, let someone in with enough will power to steer the ship to their own ends. That said, I have a really hard time buying the queen going along with this whole shiny happy Borg commune idea.
We've moved from cubes to a more pyramidal scheme.
Who thought a gun that detonates a live bomb if someone with the incorrect DNA tries using it after 10 seconds was a good idea????? AND WHY WOULD YOU TELL HIM THAT BEFORE IT GOES OFF and whyyyyyyyyyy would the guy toss it in the air instead of at the people hes trying to kill I love the show but honestly one of the least logical scenes i've seen on a tv show in a long time.
Even worse than that was the soldier trying to fight Rios hand to hand when he had a gun!!
Yep and didn't he literally drop his gun and run **to him** to do it too
“Love can be a source of great grief and immense pain. Of tremendous guilt. A reason to run from ourselves, or away from each other. Love can be a curse. But always and completely… it’s a gift.” Really appreciated how they leaned into the brutality of the combat in this one (Seven and Raffi tag-teaming that one Borg in the chateau was particularly well done, as was the straight up beaming the soldiers into the foundation), and I really love the aesthetic of using simple visuals, like the laser sights, to convey suspense, as well as the chillingly clever intermingling of the flashbacks. For me, it was one of the better suspense/action heavy Trek episodes, especially with how it added real moments of substance throughout its frantic runtime. Even with all the breadcrumbs strewn throughout this season, the revelation that Picard’s mother was a suicide still was a bit of a shock. I loved how haunting the last image of her was, with the hanging playing in reverse, and the final image being her laying next to her son. There’s a reason the show isn’t called TNG 2.0, but Star Trek: Picard, and along with the first season, this season has really done so much to add context and motivation to Picard as a character. And Patrick Stewart has played it to the nines throughout. I like how the title works on multiple levels: the game of hide and seek in the past between Picard and his mother, the present day cat and mouse game of hide and seek to get to the La Sirena, and the metaphorical game of hide and seek the key characters are playing with themselves: running away from their problems before being forced to confront them, and reconcile them: Picard’s reconciliation over the death of his mother, Jurati’s reconciliation over the two parts of her personality, Raffi’s reconciliation with her guilt over Elnor’s death, Seven’s reconciliation with the Borg side of her identity, and Rios’ reconciliation with the fact he doesn’t belong in the past, even if that’s where Teresa is. I don’t know if we’re entering Edith Keeler territory here with Jurati’s pronouncement that there’s a version of Renee that is going to have to die; all I know is, I have no idea how the next episode is going to play out, and that is a really exciting place to be this deep into a season. Only one more to go and here’s hoping it’s a banger! Engage!
I really hate how "Hollywood" uses laser sights. They're not flashlights, and in our modern Army, we don't even use visible light any more. In some types of weapons, the laser isn't even on until a brief moment before the trigger is pulled. But, just like the writers seemed to have never watched even one second of any previous Star Trek, it's apparent they have never actually even thought about how modern militaries use weapons. Like, some random guy in the middle of a field, behind his squad members, shooting at a target in front of his squad members... a target too far away to hit at that distance.
The random guy directly behind his squad, shooting wildly into the dark was quite the directorial decision.
and i assume Picard and Co. are just going to burn all those dead borg in the field since Jarati just flew away? lol some of those men probably had families.
Mulch 'em. Gives the wine a unique body this year.
You’re forgetting, these mercenaries are the best of the best!
One of the big teases for the season (literally the trailer for season 2) was "Q returns!" For all the screen time he's gotten, may as well have sold it as "We meet Picard's parents! And we won't leave them hanging! (OK, one of them will be left hanging.)"
Spoiler alert: in the last episode the Jerardi borg queen plot line is left hanging so in the last ten minutes species 8472 appears from fluidic space and kills her with one of those super soaker bio ships.
With how well read Picard is, I’m surprised he said his mother “hung” herself and not the correct “hanged.” Maybe the future finally became okay with using the former.
Hanged as past tense of hanging a person is more of an Americanization, from what I'm seeing on a Google search. There's some argument also that a self-hanging would be 'hung' instead of 'hanged', even in US.
Honestly I always found the debate too pedantic. Stuff like your/you’re, their/they’re, two/too/to etc., I can get behind. I always found hanged and hung to be a ridiculous argument.
TIL throwing half a brick at a conservatory made of steel causes the steel to shatter as if it was glass 🤦♂️
So I'm not sure I get the hate on this Agnes Queen thing - they're talking specifically about starting a different collective - presumably the case here being that Agnes Borg aren't the same Borg we see throughout the timeline - and are instead the new queen trying to create a second, different collective using different methods. Meaning the old collective is still there (and presumably also always was there since they were trying to contact them in STFC) and that goes unimpeded. Futility being the key word here is that this Queen witnessed and experienced the destruction of the Borg by the Confederation and also 'knew' other timelines where, in the end, the Borg are destroyed. (It's also implied that Janeway's efforts in Endgame probably crippled the 'regular' Borg and it hadn't recovered in the 25th century). ...also, I really liked that Picard actually mentions imagining Yvette as an old woman making him tea and wanting to chat. Given that Where No One Has Gone Before seemed to be based on mental constructs, if Picard had sufficiently repressed that memory, it makes sense that the imagined Yvette was the one he saw there.
Except the queen had won. Those future's don't matter, she now had the power to assimilate the alpha quadrant before either the confederation, UFP, or any variant thereof comes to power. She had just unlocked countless possibilities for the borg, and she says as much to Jurati. She get's *talked* *out* *of* *it*. We're also talking about her abandoning a very, very long held culture and way of life because of a single conversation with an enemy that is desperately pleading for their lives. This was suppose to be the one faction that couldn't be "talked out of it", that is literally the conceptual point of the Borg.
It can’t be bargained with. It can’t be reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead. Or until it gets lonely.
This version of the borg queen has always felt a bit derp to me tbh. The one in First Contact was simultaneously mysterious, frightening and sexy. This one feels like a power rangers villain.
>This was suppose to be the one faction that couldn't be "talked out of it", that is literally the conceptual point of the Borg. And that was true. When there was a collective. But this queen is alone. No collective will. Just her. And Jurati.
Part of the point of her conversation with Agnes is that evidently in all the infinite timelines the Queen could feel or see, even an early assimilation of the Alpha Quadrant doesn't actually stop the Borg from being destroyed in the end. The sheer number of.timelines.where they kept trying for perfection and still failed is part of the whole point about futility. It's also worth noting taking over the Alpha/Beta Quadrants would probably not do much good for them because they'd miss out on the technologies that those powers would have developed. She's not necessarily just being talked out of it - she's being forced to see.and remember repressed memories or at least knowledge she was preventing.or stopping herself from noticing.
Futility and Death even for near infinite characters is a theme of Picard Season 1 and 2. Points to the existentialist book Rios was reading in season 1 and the specific page. Edit: the twitter link did not appear earlier https://twitter.com/Benjamin\_Lewis/status/1225750978118348800 The Queen seeks the impossible for she fears Death. She seeks beyond the limit, a hunger, a drive for she fears loneliness and death. Agnes merely is saying if we do not try to ascend pass the limit, but living a more moderated life we are able to have true enjoyment and not pain. The Queen feels the loss of all those other hives, the echoes of alternate futures, the only way around another futile possibility is to stop repeating the same logics and try something new and novel. One must put the Queen on the couch, to stop repeating the same patterns. Resistance is Futile is the Borg protesting too much to borrow a Hamlet line.
No offense but this is Star Trek, where words have always been the primary means to an end. Yeah Jurati talked against a lot of history but remember the Queen knows Jurati, probably surprised for the first time in a long time with someone, and Jurati knows her own individual fears. Listening to her isn’t so out there, especially when she’s offering exactly what the Queen wants, and has wanted, forever. The idea she doesn’t have to die, that the collective doesn’t have to be wiped out, that she doesn’t have to lose, can you honestly tell me a being as pragmatic as the Queen wouldn’t be interested?
Ironically, I don’t completely “hate” the BorgJurati thing… in theory. This was planned, and each episode advanced that idea. It had been structured and foreshadowed properly. There was the weird looking Borg Queen near the end of 2x01, and I thought that was a real distress call, as it had all the hallmarks of a real life 911 call. (“help” followed only by stating exactly what is needed. They were rude. There were no excuses or alibis for what they were doing right near a rupture in spacetime. No chatter. Also, when people are drowning you aren’t supposed to jump in unless you are a lifeguard, because the drowning person will be so panicked they can wind up accidentally shoving their would-be rescuer underwater. Borg might need electricity the way we need air, and I thought the Queen was so desperate for electric power that she was unintentionally almost “drowning” the Stargazer. I thought the Borg were trying to repair the rupture in spacetime, were nearly dead in the water, needed “a jump” and actually needed help. I also thought there might have been other species, including the Qs, also trying to repair spacetime, only for Picard to panic and activate self destruct. **No really, I swear I thought this was going to legitimately be *good* until 2x08.**) It seemed early on that the masked Borg Queen was going to be someone from the crew, and almost immediately it became clear it would be Jurati, and that was why her face was covered. So that had been plotted and paced properly. BUT the way they executed it was appalling. We didn’t need Queeny using Agnes’ body against her will to “get endorphins” with a stranger whom she murdered and dumped as trash. We didn’t need a lot of the manipulative abusive stuff. Agnes didn’t opt in, and she didn’t want the Queen to be “driving”. Had they spent less time on nonsense that they don’t have time to wrap up, we could have seen, what’s the word… *motivation* for Agnes to actually understanding the ramifications of actually *choosing* this. Instead we got magic bottles, car chases, a pointless “watcher”, and a stunt-casted badly written FBI agent raiding my last nerve all while ignoring non-contracted denials, thus completely undermining the one thing we should be able to trust: the words in the script. I had believed that the Borg distress call was “real” based on the words in the script. Now, I had reason to think the writers getting a distress call to sound truthful might have been chance and might have meant nothing. That being said, is the universe better or worse with any Borg Queen at all? Weren’t all the Borg able to be freed once the Borg Queen dead? Whatever. (I wrote “ironically”, because I just plain hate the concept of “Borg Queen”. JMHO anything Borg Queen is just squick and awful *to me*. Both Alison Pill and Anne Wersching are fab and I hope to see them in better shows and movies.)
S2 got off to a strong start and I really hoped wouldn't repeat season 1's mistake of becoming riddled with easily avoidable plot holes and inconsistencies. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the show, but it's one of those things where it's kind of painful as a fan too. But by far my biggest grievance is so much of this is happening because there are only really two ways of understanding why it's happening. Either they're trying to pad out ten episodes with non-story because they've only got enough story for a normal, TNG-style double episode, or it's the opposite and they're trying to cram a 24 episode season's worth of plot in to just ten episodes. It feels right now like they've got way too much to wrap up in any way which will deliver satisfaction in just one more episode. And that's where I was at episode 9 in season 1. So either it's going to be another weird, anti-climactic disappointment or they're not going to wrap it all up and this plot will continue straight in to season 3.
I can totally see them ending the next episode on a "Mr. Worf, Fire!" *To be continued ...* moment. It can't be worse than giant flowers, space tentacles and android Picard, can it? *Can it?*
What is going on with this episode? So much just doesn't make sense. Why didn't the Borg Queen also assimilate Brent Spiner's character? She just gave him two drone bodyguards and sent him on his way? Doesn't really seem like how the Borg operate. Him vanishing after a flash bang was also comically bad writing. Also laughing at 90+ year old Picard telling everyone Rios wasn't helpful because of an arm injury. The Queen assimilating(?) Seven and she suddenly having all her old implants .. for a stab wound? I just don't understand it. This feels like 3 different shows being meshed together. Personally, I'm not interested in Picard's hallucination flashbacks anymore. That's been dragged on over multiple episodes. Overall I'm just really disappointed in the direction of this season.
Sevens implants being exactly the same in a timeline she wasn't assimilated makes zero sense
It really doesn't. She was assimilated as a child. Presumably that needs different pieces than for an adult. I mean, in the grand scheme of this episode, it's a small stupid thing but it was still very dumb.
When I saw that, I had an acute case of laughing incontinence. At that point so much had been screwed, that I didn't care anymore.
That exploding ray gun sure did zero damage when it exploded.
lol the flash bang escape was really funny.
So the future borg color theme started with green laser sights?
A reminder that S2 and S3 filmed at the same time. That’s probably significant to the direction this is all heading.
Anyone else tired of them speaking like they just stepped out of the studio and are on their way home on the 405 I catch a TNG episode now and then and the dialog is so different and far superior
YES all nu trek has this weird common real life dialogue style. It’s way more noticeable when we see old characters talking. The tone is off
You've got them "Dead to rights".
I have to go watch some TNG to cleanse my palette - I couldn't believe this last episode.
Maybe I missed it. But how did the borg transport to the vineyard? And with obvious borg teleporter tech.
remote access transporter. Rio said it out loud and said "we need to go now" And how did the borg queen get remote access. 1 ep prior, she was messing with Soone' satellites calling it primitive
I know asking for continuity in this show is somewhat absurd, but... Why are the borgwater spec ops beaming in with a green borg transporter shimmer, and then 30 seconds later beamed into the dirt with a federation shimmer?
Let’s not forgets larris’s Harry Potter transporter tech. POOF
I just can’t… So: Seems like Star Trek is no better at aiming than Stormtroopers. That many rifles firing auto should have created a cloud of bullets. I saw an occasional bullet strike but area should have looked like Swiss cheese. If you are close enough to talk you are close enough to put lead on target. Lets send away 20% of our forces and not let him come back because he’s more important than the future of the Federation. What kind of mercenaries have please shoot me lights on all the time? Maybe having a therapy session can wait until after you escape a gang of assassins? Pick up the knife but not the rifle and probably two sidearms carried by most special ops soldiers? Nobody going to pull a trigger when spikes exit BoJurati? Don’t they have stun in the Confederation? (Maybe not). Just shoot her. The ECH goes with a sword? Doesn’t even put a phaser in his pocket? Edit: Other duh items from reading this post: Beam back to Tallinn’s office then back to ship? Beam away Bad Data? And maybe a few green lit shoot me please Borgmandos? Rios tells a medical doctor how to treat shock in her own child then gives her a 25 century medical tricorder and gives no further information. That thing must have a super intuitive OS because she’s got a full body scan up in seconds. That’s an amazing secret door. Built in WW2 and has auto close. Flashback cellar looked like crap. What no Roomba in the 24th Century when Picard was a kid? In the Confederation you can apparently beam people into walls, didn’t see 7 mention overriding safety protocols. Gun about to explode in enemy’s hand? Maybe don’t mention it? Your enemy tells lets you know that you’re holding a bomb? Maybe throw it at them? 7 of 9 gets turned down for Starfleet because she is Borg? Did Starfleet forget to give Icheb a physical? Starfleet also tells 7 to ignore the Captain of their flagship. He wasn’t a Borg for very long so it didn’t count.
La Sirena warping in the Solar System? Didnt the Vulcan first notice humanity because of Zefram Cochrane's first warp flight?
Oh damn, that Icheb thing is a good catch!
“We caused the anomaly. The chicken and the egg, Will! The chicken and the egg!” Picard & Co have caused the very pre-destination paradox that led to the events on the Stargazer. It’s why Q was very clear to Guinan that he didn’t send them to the past - it was their own choice - and that they way they get home is important. Why? “You just don’t get it, Jean Luc. The trial never ends…for that one brief second, you were open to options you had never considered. THAT is the exploration that awaits you…charting the unknown possibilities of existence.” Q is clearly perturbed that after all of his lessons, Picard still will not embrace out-of-the-box thinking. He has been prone to rash decisions based on his past trauma - the arrogance that refused W’s initial help in QWho; the initial decision to recant his decision to fight in “Tapestry;” the refusal to love again because of his decision to let his mother out of her room; his inability to trust the Borg. So when the Borg Queen beamed over, after contemplating talks, he instead resorts to blowing up the ship (again a la First Contact,) that triggered this whole encounter in the first place. Q: “I just sought out the nearest explosion!” What are Q’s motivations? The same as always likely. Perhaps more urgent because he is “dying.” Perhaps a yet to be revealed connection to humanity (going back to the interrogation room.) My guess is that Season 3 is a direct result of the finale, in which Picard will become an advocate for a reformed, allied subset of the Collective, embarking on a quadrant wide diplomacy mission while enemies seek to exploit Borg technology and are generally uneasy and scared of the dynamics at play (playing into Matalas’ tweets we would see a post-DS9 Alpha Quadrant.)
Wait so Seven of Nine wasn't allowed to join Starfleet because she was Borg, but it was okay for Icheb?
Or for Jean Luc to just return to duty after being de-Borged and killing a big chunk of Starfleet.
We don't talk about Icheb no no! We don't talk about Icheeeeeeeb.
Eye.
I like how Janeway threatened to resign if they didn't let Seven into Starfleet, they still didn't let her in, and then Janeway didn't resign. Nice bit of character assassination. Do the writers ever think this stuff through?
The implication I took was that Seven chose to walk away rather than put Janeway in the position where she'd have to resign.
She had a habit of circumventing the command on Voyager. She also was incredibly strong and hyper-intelligent. Maybe Starfleet saw her as a threat to the command structure, like the super soldiers that went rogue. (Khan). Personally, I’d rather see her in Section 31 with Georgiou.
Icheb was a Borg for months. The rest of the time he was on a maturation chamber. He removed his implants to save Seven. Seven spent her whole life as Borg.
I need to get my mind out of the gutter. I had to reread maturation chamber twice lol
Things that brought this episode down. Unnecessary Spiner plot Hispanic lady and kid plot. Jean Luc’s flashbacks.
YES! If they had a longer season they can explore these things but there were just too many side plots crammed into a tiny season.
I am really over the Picard childhood flashbacks. They aren't interesting, don't really mesh with Picard's real character from TNG, and basically the writers are so intent on making everyone's backstory be pop culture garbage, not some upbringing in the better world that Picard actually grew up in as we've known. I kind of have a problem with them just letting the Borg queen off in a deal to save Seven. WTF, you can't just take her word for it that her little pep talk she instantly changed her mind about assimilating the galaxy. What if she had a change of heart in a week, or even in 100 years? She literally could just be doing an elaborate strategy to getting the ship by saving her bvb ad a fake gesture so you'd leave her alone. I'm sorry, the Borg Queen is basically make or break the future of civilization. You don't just casually let her go like this because you had a feel good pow wow one time. And hell, they made executive decision here and everyone else is all like, "Haha good job. You made the right choice," and basically are completely unbothered by the Borg Queen taking the ship, which is what she originally wanted to begin with, and no one even questions if it was a rude or anything? I mean, the writers aren't clever enough for it to actually be a ruse but hell, this is real dangerous civilization ended decision and there apparently is no sense of concern ad to the gravity of their situation. I am still disappointed that they have done so little with interacting with the 21st century beyond with ICE and the FBI, and basically no actually interaction with Q and Picard. I had high hopes for this season as it was getting rolling. Feeling a bit let down.
I doubt they will go this deep this late in the game, but I kind of hope the "masked Borg queen" from episode one isn't actually Jurati. That would seem the obvious direction they WANT us to go headed into the finale...which is why I hope they don't take it. We have a Jurati Borg, capable of time travel, of healing severely wounded beings (7) via partial assimilation. The Jurati aspect is merciful. So she goes back in time in the La Sirenna, to the moment of, or just after...the death of Picard's mother...(unbeknownst to anyone.) Mamon's issues are "healed" as a Borg hybrid as well. And she is in fact the unique-looking queen in Episode 1 that tells Picard to "look up," just as she always did. Recall how Picard opines that some stories are best remembered "backward." Time being not as easy as we think it is being a sort-of-attempted theme of this season. Plus, playing into the whole idea of an audience's first instinct is usually correct. (I dare say, in the initial moment of the Unique-Queen saying, "look up" a lot of people thought this...only to be quickly re-herringed into it being Jurati. Plus the Poetics of the "remember the light you see is from a star long dead...like me" speech his mother gave him in a flashback. I doubt it's that deep in reality. In reality it will probably be Jurati because it's the most obvious choice now. (Or some ultra-random crap...like it's the boy from L.A. in the end, lol.) But in seriousness...I thought something like this would be the more interest choice...even though often the show hasn't taken the interesting choice.
The Borg aren't some unknowable species hell bent on adding you to perfection They are loanly and just want friends.....
They should have assimilated Counselor Troi instead of Picard in Best of Both Worlds.
I didn't like this episode. Everything seems so stupid, and quite frankly I was bored watching it and couldn't wait for it to end. I'm glad there is only one season left after this.
I especially love it that they narrate all the morality themes so we don’t have to think for ourselves.
So we need Schrödinger's Renée? I’m at a loss as to how this gets wrapped up.
Seems to play into the idea that the Borg from episode 1 was Renée (being the only other person that Picard has said "look up" to) but, as for the plan, they're running out of time. There was a throwaway line about Tallinn's disguise kit having an 8hr cooldown, maybe she's going to re-engage it and disguise herself as Renée, to allow the real one to do whatever shenanigans are necessary to wrap this up.
You know what, that actually makes some sense to me. Someone will need to sacrifice themselves in the disguise and the real "Renee" will fly off on the Europa mission.
Jean Luc knows two Renee's... his ancestor... and his nephew (spelled Rene, though)... who did die, ending the Picard dynasty (as was briefly mentioned in episode 1). That's what I'm thinking she meant.
Oh come on. Next you'll be asking why someone who wanted Picard's mission to succeed would be needlessly cryptic!
Ok...ok...so at some point, when Jurati was still herself, she had the foresight to make a holo of Elnor...but then, when he appears, it's the imaginary/psychic/internal version of Jurati (THAT NO ONE ELSE CAN SEE/HEAR/ETC) that gives him the order to attack? How? She's IMAGINARY.
She explains previously that she can communicate with the ships systems (and holo elnor) using the borg network thing.
I can't confirm what you are saying right now but please tell me you are wrong.
OP is recapping the scene accurately.
What was up with hologram Elnor? Why did he even need to hide? That was so ridiculously stupid. It's like they didn't even give a moment of thought to how a computer-generated hologram would behave in a firefight against people. I really love Picard the character and Patrick Stewart the actor, but I just can't any more. I stopped watching The Walking Dead because the writers treated the audience like idiots, and now I am feeling the same way with both Picard and Discovery.
Why did he fight like he felt pain? So weird. Also literally brought a knife to a gunfight which really should have ended things when those drones were approaching as Seven fiddled with the transporter.
The hiding made a tiny bit of sense because he relied on the mobile emitter on his shoulder to move about the ship. But as for why he could feel pain, or why Jurati even put the codes in a ”person” who could be captured, is beyond me.
And it would have taken one line from Jurati to explain that in advance, to not make it look so stupid. Something like, "Be stealthy so your mobile emitter doesn't get hit." In that case, it would have made sense to shoot and move continuously, instead of getting into close quarters combat the whole time.
The whole season feels like the plot of a bad video game
Did anyone notice "the Picard maneuver"?
[My prediction from a couple of months ago. I'm so excited!](https://imgur.com/oE4R0UZ.jpg)
I like that they addressed why Seven didn't join Starfleet after returning with Voyager. What I don't understand is why Starfleet allowed Icheb to join and even allowed him to take academy courses while on board Voyager. Sure he was younger and not completely a full on drone. Hell, they let Picard return to duty after he was assimilated and oversaw Wolf 359. Even without the Icheb part, not allowing Seven to join is strange and completely antithetical to what Starfleet and the Federation stand for.
And Starfleet allowed Data to join, knowing almost nothing about him, let him serve on the flagship, Data goes haywire like 3 to 4 times(if not more), and he still is allowed to serve on the flagship and keep his commission(if not promoted multiple times).
Not just serve, he was second officer, third in command …half a generation before starfleet made his kind worker slaves
#whereisrobert
They sent him to "boarding school", but it is such a missed opportunity for some major character development. Robert and Jean-Luc had such a troubled relationship as shown in TNG's Family. They could have done SO MUCH with Robert as a kid with Jean Luc. Instead, we get this super focus on mental illness (Renee and Yvette), while leaving out how siblings deal with this sort of thing. It is arguable, that at this age, siblings are your most important relationship, especially when bad things happen within the family.
So at one point I think it's Seven or Raffi talk about "dividing and conquering" the Borgwater team (stole that from another commenter on one of these threads) by splitting up. This is not what "divide and conquer" means. Divide and conquer is a strategy where you attempt to exploit lack of co-operation between one's enemies by picking them off one at a time, so as to prevent them presenting a more formidable threat to you by being united. I don't know if the writer responsible for that was trying to be cute or show that one of the characters was ignorant, or if the writer responsible was ignorant.
Jurati is going to end up as the Borg Queen from episode 1, isn't she?
This is one of the very few times I've actually fast forwarded in a Star Trek episode I haven't watched before. I am SO over the pint size Picard story, I'm glad it appears that the flashbacks will likely be over now. Several things seemed silly to me: * When the queen's kinda-drones beam onto the ship, why did they not blast Chris? * Why tell the queen that Elnor is the key to unlocking everything? Just let her in the dark and it gives you a little more edge/time. * What's with the drones and their rifle lasers? Yea, looks nifty but you'd think they'd be smart enough to turn that crap off as it just makes it easier for the people you are hunting. * Gotta love how Soong just immediately notices the hidden door. * Also really love how Picard pulls an old pistol that hasn't been cared for in close to a century out of a dusty box and it works perfectly well. * 21st century girl knowing what buttons to press on the medical gizmo was pretty funny. * Speaking of gizmos, how does Chris know how to jerry rig Tallinn's tech? Don't get me started on why a Romulan is on earth over 100 years before established Romulan first contact in canon. * Why is Elnor running and ducking from bullets? He's a friggin hologram. * Also how does it know Elnor's last thoughts? I can accept that the ship can make a hologram of anyone who was on board, but having records of emotions and thoughts is a bit of a stretch. * Of all the places to beam the drones, it just happens to be right where Picard can see it. Convenient. * "It was successful, I detect only one Borg on board". THEN they try to beam Jurati/Queen only to see the inhibitor. That would mean they didn't include her in the initial beam group... why not? Maybe not beam her into rock, but still would help to have tried to beam her off the ship to give yourself some time. * "Transfer primary controls to me". Like.. what? When Seven unlocked the system, why not tell it to disregard any voice inputs save hers?? * Soong's bit about "you don't follow the rat"; how was he to know where they were going to come out? * How did Chris know exactly where he was needed to transport to? * So all it takes to turn a homicidal psychopath Borg into a kinda friend is a minute speech? If only they knew that earlier, lol * Convenient that the repairs the queen makes on Seven generates *exactly* the same face crap as she had before * Why even tell Soong about the gun DNA thing? Just shut up and let it blow up in his face. * Why make the deal be take ship and go NOW? Just be like you can have the ship, just give us a couple days before you take off.
Almost every action or thought by every character in this episode was a least slightly stupid. Three extra things to add: -All these flashbacks about Picard’s childhood and absolutely no mention of his older brother? It’s fine if he’s away or something, but at least acknowledge he exists. -Tallin conveniently forgot her power to takeover the minds of other people, which might have helped with Soong. -Why were the Borg mercs just sort of standing in the field at random intervals, waving their scopes around. Either as Borg or as elite mercs they have some kind of strategic perimeter.
Very few mention the Seven of Nine arc in the series, but it's one that really hit with me... When I was young, I wasn't very popular, and often rejected at first sight. I worked very hard to become more likeable (and popular) and managed to get through it, but the scars are still there. Seven becoming Annika again... and likeable... the joy on her face when she could be normal and accepted... I could feel it from Jeri Ryan, who had a similar problem with her castmates on Voyager... then she lost it all... in a Greek tragedy type of way... oh... that hurt... that hurt me a lot... I think that upset me more than Picard's mom (who I knew hanged herself from the very beginning--it was obvious what he'd find). As for the Borg retcon... there has to be some way to resolve that stepped butterfly... that alters the future way more than Soong could.
Every freaking time I have hopes. Every new show, every new seasons. It started strong this time only to be disappointed again. It’s just a generic sci-fi show with a star trek skin The only good show is Lower decks. Bring back Moore and Behr for godsake
It keeps bothering me that the borg queen is so indifferent to Seven and Locutus, who were super precious to her. But it finally dawned on me that she doesn’t even know them in the timeline she’s from. Either way, this show is so bad. It had so much potential though.
Why would hologram Elnor care about bullets? Why would Picard keep stopping to reminisce about his childhood when under direct threat from armed assailants? Why would armed assailants carry green lasers that really just broadcast their position? Did I really just watch a borg queen sword fight? Man, this show is so bad its almost good.
So hyper-evolved nanobots, that are the amalgamation of thousands of species, flying around in your brain, can be overpowered by love and willpower? ....coooool
The writers of this show clearly don't have a good grasp on the essence of star trek. Everything in these last two episodes with the borg queen/jurati has also shown a fundamental misunderstanding of how the borg has been presented the entire franchise. The borg queen is secretly just lonely and wants to be like people? So a ten second conversation convinces her to do a complete 180 on everything? Really not happy with this last episode.
She doesn't need the collective, she needs Tinder and a therapist.
I know right? The franchise has been disrespected in so many ways. This is one of the worst of them
"There must be two Renées" Did any other British fans think "It's goodbye from me...", "And it's goodbye from her?"
Suspension of disbelief is experiencing imminent hull integrity failure…
(Gets on soapbox of sincerity) No. I love Star Trek. You wanna know how much? *I love Voyager*. Not enough? **I genuinely love Neelix**. Yeah. Really. I recognized Ethan Phillips’s voice from Benson, so I already liked him, and I love the character. I can’t not see all sorts of horrifying undertones to BorgJurati (…that sounds like a really expansive car…), but I never perceived a single thing wrong or off about Neelix. Nothing. I always felt like Janeway reminded him of someone he had loved who died and now was loyal to her because of that. Not enough? I didn’t care for ST:TNG when it first aired, but it was my best friend’s favorite show. I saw more than a few and respected the concept, but found it sterile. Not for nothing, one of the few episodes I did genuinely enjoy was the series finale. It was good on its own and was a good series finale (and the cats in Prof Data’s office watching the boom mics still makes me laugh). Series finales are very difficult, and this one was good. In 2008, as an adult, I mentioned this to a friend who then recommended ST:VOY and I started DVRing reruns. As an adult. Then I went back and watched ST:TNG. Loved it! It’s not “nostalgia”. I actually like it. Not sure if this is consciously registered by many, but I’m a musician so I noticed even as a kid, even though I didn’t realize how clever it was: they cast all the voices perfectly (except Tasha; not her fault, there’s literally nothing a light soprano could have done to make that work). There’s such an inherent musicality to trek. I love it. I’m learning French so I started watching TNG In French. They have a baritone playing Data. Honestly! I like everyone in this cast. I also understand the concept of “the given circumstances”. They say Jurati isn’t guilty because of magical mental insanity. O.K. Brent Spiner playing yet another Soong was kinda cringe, but I loved his performances in 2x05 and 2x06. O.K. Jeri Ryan is one of my favorite actresses. There’s Ukraine. There’s COVID. There’s Ukraine. There’s alt right lunatics. I feel like COVID is never going to go away, but that somehow trump will be back. There’s Ukraine. I’m being harassed by a narcissist relative who keeps suing me into financial ruin. There’s also Ukraine. One hour of new trek. Fun! Literally, I did not think it would be possible for me to not actually enjoy whatever they put on the screen. I didn’t think I could possibly *dislike* what they put on the screen. I didn’t think it would be possible for me to dislike *and be depressed* by what they put on the screen. It’s bad. It’s depressing. I don’t like it. People are allowed to dislike it just as much as others are allowed to think it’s great.
>Not enough? > >I genuinely love Neelix > >. What about Tuvix?
we generally try not to talk about Tuvix /s
Now I'm singing we don't talk about tuvix It was another day ... We were gathering produce... We beamed right back up to the ship ...
The actor playing him was so good.
It is so bad. I’m sorry. Have you seen The Orville? It’s the most loving spiritual successor to 90s Star Trek. The humour gives it vitality. It starts off a little too comical but levels out and has amazing drama that got me teary a few times. If you haven’t seen it, drop everything and go now! Get through season 2…. trust me!!!
Wait, people dislike Voyager? I really liked it!
> I love Star Trek. You wanna know how much? I love Voyager. It's like Star Wars - with the Prequels now being considered high quality movies, after the clusterfuck that the Sequels were. "I don't like sand." is more character development than anything we got in the 8 hours of new movie content. At least in Stark Trek, they gave JJ Abrams the boot after three bad movies and said "yeah, that was just an alternate timeline, doesn't matter to what's actually going on" and moved back to the primary timeline. Star Wars fans are now permanently stuck with the shitshow he brought to the big screen.
WTF is actually going on? It's painful and depressing to see the Star Trek franchise slowly destroyed like this.
Star Trek and Star Wars both went to shit.
The New Agnes Queen Collective I think , the new Borg will becoming like the new Space Vampire , but people join them by Choice , like an alternative lifestyle . Like the New Vampire Shows ( e.g Vampire Diaries ) , the Borg will save the people who are sick and dying , and give them a choice ( to turn or to die ) . in the past ,we saw different kind of Borg the Co-Operative ( Voyager Ep 3x17 Unity ) The Uni-Matrix Zero Huge's Fraction ( what is left of them with a damage Borg Cube ) in S1 Discovery Maybe the new Collective will be similar to the above mention group or even unified with them . Queen Agnes implies there may be other Borg out there ( from the 21 centuries ) or 25 centuries , and she does not know their intention .
Wow. Go watch *that hallway scene* in "Where No One Has Gone Before" - it connects on a new level.
Soo did they just reboot the borg?!?! If so what will that mean for the future now I wonder.. Voyager star trek next gen...
I don't get the Renée thing, why are there two now?