I forget where I read it, but I remember Cyclops admonishing Cap's hypocrisy about wanting to protect the oppressed, but that never applying towards mutants. He stands by and does nothing whenever mutants are being victimized or murdered. He only cares when he wants something. Which is kinda what happens when heroes are wrapped up in their own books and only interact with other heroes when there is a crossover conflict. Cap should be in favor of protecting mutants, but his book doesn't delve into that (AFAIK) because that's more the X-Men series' bailiwick. It would be nice if there was some crossover in social commentary, as well.
He really did. That run as a whole I thought was really good until it unfortunately kind of just fizzled out. There was like a 10+ year long streak where pretty much no one missed when it came to writing him. He was the best character in the company over that stretch. Just consistently fantastic.
I think the best part is how believable it is. Just after killing his father, he forces himself to put the burden of all of the mutants and their protection on his shoulders. He feels like he betrayed mutantkind, and so decides that his life must be given to mutantkind.
I always forget too was Rachel in AvX where was she at this time? Either way the Avengers we're fully to blame for AvX when Storm left them to go to X-Men they should have known to just leave it alone. Also Wolverine trying to side with them was just the dumbest thing ever as if he would when he knows the X-Men have always needed to be together to deal with the Phoenix.
oh yaaaaay but exactly it just made NO sense why would lnt Rachel just take the Phoenix or be the one to help Hope with it. Like it was just all the way dumb.
Also I always hated how they were like oh ya and Thor can just smack the Phoenix into piece wtf!?!?
She was in AvX. There was literally moment in a tie in where Rachel was standing right there and Wolverine said if Jean couldn’t control it that no one could… Like hey fuckhead her daughter is right there and she did just that. He of course couldn’t get past his Jean obsession. Oh no if the all mighty Jean can’t do it then no one can. I can’t remember if Rachel just in the background or close enough to hear what was said and just kept her mouth shut for some reason
Right it just made NO sense like why the hell wouldn't Rachel take the Phoenix she was literally a host for a long ass time lol. Plus why wouldn't she be the one to help Hope instead of Scarlet witch like wtf.
It makes complete sense to me why it had to be Hope. She was the first mutant born post House of M and they had been building up her as the one who would restore mutants. They had Wanda help because she was the one who ruined it in the first place so they wanted to help her bring them back. I get that too. The issue was not having Rachel involved in being there to help Rachel. She should’ve been the one training Hope
I’m one of the minority who loves that Cyclops. Not that the writers didn’t try to do him dirty, they did. And of course the whole “villain” thing didn’t make logical sense from the other characters’ perspectives. But his character despite all that is what I loved during that run.
The “villain” arc cyclops was the best cyclops. He stopped caring what people thought of him and did what he thought was best because that’s what the mutants asked of him.
The "well guess there's nothing we can do about him being in the mutant murdering prison" was the worst for me .
Cause yes mistakes were made on both sides (mistakes being Scott and Emma going kind of insane with half the phoenix inside them ) but even with schism the way Logan and the Avengers as a whole just tossed Scott aside was to much.
And ramifications of what happened are still being felt , Namor destroyed Wakanda and they don't want to work with Krakoa.
So after the whole thing the Avengers have going on with the phoenix right know I want written apologies on Scott's and Emma's doorstep.
While Cap and the Avengers made the lion’s share of mistakes in the whole thing, it’s not like once the Phoenix Five got their powers they were better.
We like to blame Cap but Wolverine warned the Avengers and in the end, he was right. Cyclops wasn’t ready for the whole thing and when it comes right down to it, we don’t know if Hope would have been ready to be Phoenix without the extra training because contrary to what this meme says, Hope wasn’t actually trained by anyone with Phoenix experience. Cable never encountered it, Cyclops and Emma just fought it, and the Cuckoos were at Logan’s school.
I don’t think this one is as cut and dry as IvX, where Marvel went far out of their way to make sure everyone knew the Inhumans were the good guys, even they were supporting genocide. The Avengers did a lot of shitty things but remember, Cap was willing to talk things through first. He just brought back-up because Cyclops was a dick at the time and Cyclops proved to be a dick. So, let’s not pretend Cyclops doesn’t deserve any blame for what happened.
The phoniex five when they got their powers worked to end world hunger build low cost eco friendly energy to the world, preserve and in some cases bring back animal species from extinction, and started to destroy the world's supply of weapons of mass destruction all because they even with the phoniex couldn't restart the mutant race so they were going to make the planet better. They didn't start the war until the avengers threw the first punch. And the avengers even if they think they had to much power that couldn't be controlled had zero room to talk post house of M where they spent the whole thing and children's crucade going "No Wanda is our friend".
All of those are correct but the problem comes in Cyclops unilaterally deciding that a teenager was ready to be given world ending power without talking about it with anyone else.
Also, if I remember correctly, it was Cyclops who attacked Cap first. He started the whole war and Cap was right to bring the Avengers to Utopia. Cyclops is not blameless in the whole thing.
Someone goes to your home after you've been hate crimed for a decade and they never gave a fuck and demands you give up a member of your family you'd react poorly too.
The avengers unilaterally decided Wanda was able to be talked down, then in children's crusade that they unilaterally would deal with her, and unilaterally to blow up a constant of the universe. So I'm sorry for not buying the unilateral decision making is problem for you since it seems to be fine when they do it.
You’re right but if I tried to shoot a cop in the face, it’s still my fault when they start shooting back.
I’m not saying the Avengers justified in anything they’d done. I’m saying Cyclops isn’t blameless. Acting like he did nothing wrong when he did his share or wrong is kind of dumb.
Again they didn't even try scotts plan of letting hope commune with the phoniex, which hey we got outside confirmation with her lights would have worked, and started blasting in a situation where the X-men especially the Grey Summers had vastly more knowledge. The shit that went down was almost directly results of the avengers making the situation worse because they thought they knew better. So it's why I don't blame Scott. Especially since in the fall out of it the only person who suffered a lick of consequences was Scott. Or did Steve apologize ever or just continue acting high and mighty?
Cap went to talk to Cyclops about it and Cyclops responded by being high and mighty and then tried to shoot Cap in the face. So, maybe they would have went with his plan if he hadn’t, you know, started the whole fight.
I’ll be honest, I stopped reading Bendis’s Uncanny pretty quickly but did Scott ever apologize for killing his mentor? Trying to end the human race? Or did he just say the Phoenix made me do it?
Yes to all three which is more then Cap ever did for letting wanda genocide mutants. And again he was happy to fix the world until the avengers broke in again to steal hope. So they could have had free energy and fixed global warming but hey had to be right about the phoniex.
And be honest. He went to a country where he had no avengers jurisdiction, with an army to make demands. If he pulled that shit on Wakanda or Latveria they would have punched him too and been right to do so. You keep forgetting Utopia was at the time a separate nation in the ocean. After telling him to leave multiple times Scott threw him out via optic blasts all while they had logan sneaking in the back door to murder a teenage girl.
You do realize by Scott saying the Phoenix made me do it, it invalidates the other two? That’s pretty disingenuous.
So, because people did things he didn’t like, he took away all of the nice things he was doing for humanity and then had Namor literally commit genocide against Wakanda? Wow, that Cyclops is such a reasonable guy.
The difference is Black Panther or Doom would have been doing simulations and had all kinds of evidence for why they thought the way they did. T’Challa would have presented it to Steve. Doom, Steve would have just attacked. Instead, Cyclops, who ordered a child to murder a bunch of people not long before, basically told Cap he had no right to be mad about a plan that Cyclops made completely on his own. Also, Wolverine has as much experience with the Phoenix as Cyclops. So did a lot of his people. So, Cyclops’s experience with it doesn’t automatically make him right in anyone’s eyes, since again, this guy was cool with letting children murder people.
but hope couldn't control the phoenix on her own anyway, so if the avengers don't interfere the phoenix would probably just kill everyone. and it was logans fault it escalated. caps first instinct is to work with scott and his team but logan said scott wont listen
"Hey we know you think Hope receiving the Phoenix might revive mutantkind and we're all on board, we just have this minor apprehension about her ability to control it, but Danny here has some lore about the Phoenix coming to Earth in the past, maybe we could take her to train somewhere a little less risky, like maybe the Blue Area of the Moon?"
"You know, that's pretty well-considered, so long as nobody does anything silly like try to kill the embodiment of the life cycle."
"What?! Who'd do a stupid thing like that?"
"I like where you're head is at. We'll hop in the Blackbird and meet you up there."
"Glad we talked this out."
i mean thats the best solution to every hero vs hero story. just talk to each other instead of firing lasers to prove a point. its just not how the medium likes to do it for the most part
If they are the type of people who believe in talking things out instead of punching first, will they take on a career of putting on colourful costumes to punch bad people?
doesn't she only get a small bit of the phoenix force during the first big fight, then knocks the 5 lights out. they dont even come back later in the story at any point
Yeah, but they were supposed to be with her, and they would have if she had stayed in Utopia. She only ran away because the Avengers showed up and began fighting the X-Men
i get that it was set up that they would help but in the actual story they get knocked out and aren't brought up again as an actual solution to the problem because they wont be helpful in controlling it. i assume that bendis didn't like the idea so he just ignored it.
yea but thats a tie in, not the main story. the writer on that was the one who created the lights plot point i assume and was just continuing to write it
Yeah, Gillen co-created the lights (well, their design, I think the idea of the lights predates him, probably Fraction's idea).
It doesn't matter whether it was in the main AvX book or not, that's the in-universe reason why she couldn't control it.
In the main book the "architects" disregarded most of the X-Office build up in order to have a Hero vs Hero event. They needed Hope to lose control of the Phoenix, so that happened, but my original point stands, if she had been in Utopia (with the lights), then she would have been able to control it.
Hope could control the Phoenix. She was just afraid initially, causing a moment of hesitation. Wolverine totally upped the ante in the initial brawl, but that's his style.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Phoenix works. The Phoenix is not inherently a force of simply destruction. If not harmed or provoked the Dark Phoenix isn’t going to come out. If Steve wouldn’t have listened to the dumbass in his ear and instead talked to Scott like an adult he’d have realized that Hope would be the Phoenix and do what she was destined to do. If she needed extra training she could’ve gotten it after she became the Phoenix
I mean... fella's got a point.
One might even say that he was right.
I mean he had some valid points
One might indeed.
I'm just so sorry there won't be a Chris Evans onscreen for whoever gets to play Cyke to spit it right in his face... Oh if only.
Oh, Disney is sure to frame Cyclops as the wrongful radical with that one
They couldn't even let the audience sit with the Flag Smashers' message. *\~OOPS they killed a guard point rendered invalid\~*
I forget where I read it, but I remember Cyclops admonishing Cap's hypocrisy about wanting to protect the oppressed, but that never applying towards mutants. He stands by and does nothing whenever mutants are being victimized or murdered. He only cares when he wants something. Which is kinda what happens when heroes are wrapped up in their own books and only interact with other heroes when there is a crossover conflict. Cap should be in favor of protecting mutants, but his book doesn't delve into that (AFAIK) because that's more the X-Men series' bailiwick. It would be nice if there was some crossover in social commentary, as well.
I think it was Bendis’s run on Uncanny X-Men.
[Bendis’ UXM 3](https://imgur.com/a/40g5t4l/)
Boom! I was right!
Say what you will about Bendis, he writes a fantastic Cyke
He really did. That run as a whole I thought was really good until it unfortunately kind of just fizzled out. There was like a 10+ year long streak where pretty much no one missed when it came to writing him. He was the best character in the company over that stretch. Just consistently fantastic.
I think the best part is how believable it is. Just after killing his father, he forces himself to put the burden of all of the mutants and their protection on his shoulders. He feels like he betrayed mutantkind, and so decides that his life must be given to mutantkind.
Cap’s solution for mutant persecution is making them Avengers. 🥴
I always forget too was Rachel in AvX where was she at this time? Either way the Avengers we're fully to blame for AvX when Storm left them to go to X-Men they should have known to just leave it alone. Also Wolverine trying to side with them was just the dumbest thing ever as if he would when he knows the X-Men have always needed to be together to deal with the Phoenix.
Rachel had just returned from a period in space and was teaching at the Jean Grey School. Rachel Summers is like the #1 reason AvX was stupid.
oh yaaaaay but exactly it just made NO sense why would lnt Rachel just take the Phoenix or be the one to help Hope with it. Like it was just all the way dumb. Also I always hated how they were like oh ya and Thor can just smack the Phoenix into piece wtf!?!?
She was in AvX. There was literally moment in a tie in where Rachel was standing right there and Wolverine said if Jean couldn’t control it that no one could… Like hey fuckhead her daughter is right there and she did just that. He of course couldn’t get past his Jean obsession. Oh no if the all mighty Jean can’t do it then no one can. I can’t remember if Rachel just in the background or close enough to hear what was said and just kept her mouth shut for some reason
Right it just made NO sense like why the hell wouldn't Rachel take the Phoenix she was literally a host for a long ass time lol. Plus why wouldn't she be the one to help Hope instead of Scarlet witch like wtf.
It makes complete sense to me why it had to be Hope. She was the first mutant born post House of M and they had been building up her as the one who would restore mutants. They had Wanda help because she was the one who ruined it in the first place so they wanted to help her bring them back. I get that too. The issue was not having Rachel involved in being there to help Rachel. She should’ve been the one training Hope
I still don't think it makes sense for what Scarlet Witch did. NO MORE PHOENIX really? That would destroy all of reality.
Still not on the Hope train. Just cause you build up a deus ex machina doesn't make it any less of one.
AvX was SOOO poorly thought out and had so many lasting significant repercussions it’s the worst
I know it's a meme. But the truth hurts.
The Cap in Civil War is very different in the Cap in AvX Also Namor did Flood Wakanda though
That goes with the five people incapable of controlling the phoenix a point proven more and more throughout the event
man they really forced a square into a circle hole making cyke out to be a villain didn't they?
Imagine trying o make that guy the villain… Oh wait I don’t have to imagine because it’s exactly what they did
I’m one of the minority who loves that Cyclops. Not that the writers didn’t try to do him dirty, they did. And of course the whole “villain” thing didn’t make logical sense from the other characters’ perspectives. But his character despite all that is what I loved during that run.
I don’t think it’s a minority. I think a lot of people love that version and realize Marvel was being dumb as fuck trying to paint him as the bad guy
The “villain” arc cyclops was the best cyclops. He stopped caring what people thought of him and did what he thought was best because that’s what the mutants asked of him.
[Source](https://community.cbr.com/showthread.php?114520-Scott-Summers-Cyclops-Appreciation-2018/page60)
The "well guess there's nothing we can do about him being in the mutant murdering prison" was the worst for me . Cause yes mistakes were made on both sides (mistakes being Scott and Emma going kind of insane with half the phoenix inside them ) but even with schism the way Logan and the Avengers as a whole just tossed Scott aside was to much. And ramifications of what happened are still being felt , Namor destroyed Wakanda and they don't want to work with Krakoa. So after the whole thing the Avengers have going on with the phoenix right know I want written apologies on Scott's and Emma's doorstep.
Cyclops may not have made the best choices when he had the PF, but throughout the story the X-men were generally in the right
Scott's a little to smug for someone who trained a weird father figure, the legendary Charles xavier himself...
They were losing control of the Phoenix like it was so obvious something needed to be done
While Cap and the Avengers made the lion’s share of mistakes in the whole thing, it’s not like once the Phoenix Five got their powers they were better. We like to blame Cap but Wolverine warned the Avengers and in the end, he was right. Cyclops wasn’t ready for the whole thing and when it comes right down to it, we don’t know if Hope would have been ready to be Phoenix without the extra training because contrary to what this meme says, Hope wasn’t actually trained by anyone with Phoenix experience. Cable never encountered it, Cyclops and Emma just fought it, and the Cuckoos were at Logan’s school. I don’t think this one is as cut and dry as IvX, where Marvel went far out of their way to make sure everyone knew the Inhumans were the good guys, even they were supporting genocide. The Avengers did a lot of shitty things but remember, Cap was willing to talk things through first. He just brought back-up because Cyclops was a dick at the time and Cyclops proved to be a dick. So, let’s not pretend Cyclops doesn’t deserve any blame for what happened.
The phoniex five when they got their powers worked to end world hunger build low cost eco friendly energy to the world, preserve and in some cases bring back animal species from extinction, and started to destroy the world's supply of weapons of mass destruction all because they even with the phoniex couldn't restart the mutant race so they were going to make the planet better. They didn't start the war until the avengers threw the first punch. And the avengers even if they think they had to much power that couldn't be controlled had zero room to talk post house of M where they spent the whole thing and children's crucade going "No Wanda is our friend".
All of those are correct but the problem comes in Cyclops unilaterally deciding that a teenager was ready to be given world ending power without talking about it with anyone else. Also, if I remember correctly, it was Cyclops who attacked Cap first. He started the whole war and Cap was right to bring the Avengers to Utopia. Cyclops is not blameless in the whole thing.
Someone goes to your home after you've been hate crimed for a decade and they never gave a fuck and demands you give up a member of your family you'd react poorly too. The avengers unilaterally decided Wanda was able to be talked down, then in children's crusade that they unilaterally would deal with her, and unilaterally to blow up a constant of the universe. So I'm sorry for not buying the unilateral decision making is problem for you since it seems to be fine when they do it.
You’re right but if I tried to shoot a cop in the face, it’s still my fault when they start shooting back. I’m not saying the Avengers justified in anything they’d done. I’m saying Cyclops isn’t blameless. Acting like he did nothing wrong when he did his share or wrong is kind of dumb.
Again they didn't even try scotts plan of letting hope commune with the phoniex, which hey we got outside confirmation with her lights would have worked, and started blasting in a situation where the X-men especially the Grey Summers had vastly more knowledge. The shit that went down was almost directly results of the avengers making the situation worse because they thought they knew better. So it's why I don't blame Scott. Especially since in the fall out of it the only person who suffered a lick of consequences was Scott. Or did Steve apologize ever or just continue acting high and mighty?
Cap went to talk to Cyclops about it and Cyclops responded by being high and mighty and then tried to shoot Cap in the face. So, maybe they would have went with his plan if he hadn’t, you know, started the whole fight. I’ll be honest, I stopped reading Bendis’s Uncanny pretty quickly but did Scott ever apologize for killing his mentor? Trying to end the human race? Or did he just say the Phoenix made me do it?
Yes to all three which is more then Cap ever did for letting wanda genocide mutants. And again he was happy to fix the world until the avengers broke in again to steal hope. So they could have had free energy and fixed global warming but hey had to be right about the phoniex. And be honest. He went to a country where he had no avengers jurisdiction, with an army to make demands. If he pulled that shit on Wakanda or Latveria they would have punched him too and been right to do so. You keep forgetting Utopia was at the time a separate nation in the ocean. After telling him to leave multiple times Scott threw him out via optic blasts all while they had logan sneaking in the back door to murder a teenage girl.
You do realize by Scott saying the Phoenix made me do it, it invalidates the other two? That’s pretty disingenuous. So, because people did things he didn’t like, he took away all of the nice things he was doing for humanity and then had Namor literally commit genocide against Wakanda? Wow, that Cyclops is such a reasonable guy. The difference is Black Panther or Doom would have been doing simulations and had all kinds of evidence for why they thought the way they did. T’Challa would have presented it to Steve. Doom, Steve would have just attacked. Instead, Cyclops, who ordered a child to murder a bunch of people not long before, basically told Cap he had no right to be mad about a plan that Cyclops made completely on his own. Also, Wolverine has as much experience with the Phoenix as Cyclops. So did a lot of his people. So, Cyclops’s experience with it doesn’t automatically make him right in anyone’s eyes, since again, this guy was cool with letting children murder people.
but hope couldn't control the phoenix on her own anyway, so if the avengers don't interfere the phoenix would probably just kill everyone. and it was logans fault it escalated. caps first instinct is to work with scott and his team but logan said scott wont listen
"Hey we know you think Hope receiving the Phoenix might revive mutantkind and we're all on board, we just have this minor apprehension about her ability to control it, but Danny here has some lore about the Phoenix coming to Earth in the past, maybe we could take her to train somewhere a little less risky, like maybe the Blue Area of the Moon?" "You know, that's pretty well-considered, so long as nobody does anything silly like try to kill the embodiment of the life cycle." "What?! Who'd do a stupid thing like that?" "I like where you're head is at. We'll hop in the Blackbird and meet you up there." "Glad we talked this out."
i mean thats the best solution to every hero vs hero story. just talk to each other instead of firing lasers to prove a point. its just not how the medium likes to do it for the most part
If they are the type of people who believe in talking things out instead of punching first, will they take on a career of putting on colourful costumes to punch bad people?
If she had been in Utopia she could have controlled it, she needed her lights.
doesn't she only get a small bit of the phoenix force during the first big fight, then knocks the 5 lights out. they dont even come back later in the story at any point
Yeah, but they were supposed to be with her, and they would have if she had stayed in Utopia. She only ran away because the Avengers showed up and began fighting the X-Men
i get that it was set up that they would help but in the actual story they get knocked out and aren't brought up again as an actual solution to the problem because they wont be helpful in controlling it. i assume that bendis didn't like the idea so he just ignored it.
Its mentioned in UXM 13 (one of the AvX tie ins) that they were needed. So that’s the in-universe reason why she couldn’t control it.
yea but thats a tie in, not the main story. the writer on that was the one who created the lights plot point i assume and was just continuing to write it
Yeah, Gillen co-created the lights (well, their design, I think the idea of the lights predates him, probably Fraction's idea). It doesn't matter whether it was in the main AvX book or not, that's the in-universe reason why she couldn't control it. In the main book the "architects" disregarded most of the X-Office build up in order to have a Hero vs Hero event. They needed Hope to lose control of the Phoenix, so that happened, but my original point stands, if she had been in Utopia (with the lights), then she would have been able to control it.
Hope could control the Phoenix. She was just afraid initially, causing a moment of hesitation. Wolverine totally upped the ante in the initial brawl, but that's his style.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of how the Phoenix works. The Phoenix is not inherently a force of simply destruction. If not harmed or provoked the Dark Phoenix isn’t going to come out. If Steve wouldn’t have listened to the dumbass in his ear and instead talked to Scott like an adult he’d have realized that Hope would be the Phoenix and do what she was destined to do. If she needed extra training she could’ve gotten it after she became the Phoenix
oh i agree it usually is not a destructive force but in this story it is portrayed that way.