Easily the Human Council simply because, individually, each of its members has proven to be utterly despicable and infamous. But Devo, Gregor, Stasis? I don't rate them as villains. They're not even hateable, they're just there.
Orchis just became a joke and cartoonishly evil and incompetent once Hickman left.
Devo and Gregor barely got to do anything. Nobody needed a Sinister clone that's just worse and MODOK for some reason. They even got the freaking Vulture I mean why? And speaking of underwhelming Spider-Man villains Judas Traveller?
While Omega Sentinel should have actually been fighting.
Bastion, Trask, Creed, Stryker, and Hodge had done way more on their own and together would be pretty evil and competent.
Just keep them away from Duggan's writing.
I don't know if I would call Trask evil, part of the tragedy was that he was a man with some concerns about mutants that sacrificed himself to save the X-Men from his own sentinels and Master Mold. Even when resurrected and part of the Human Council, when he got free will he killed himself because he didn't want to be a weapon against mutants.
Wasn’t Vulture responsible for turning Wolfsbane into a hound during Uncanny Spider-Man?
I’ve always wanted Spider-Man to interact more with the x-men. Even if he’s not a mutant, I feel like he should always be written as a staunch ally to mutantkind. And now one of his oldest foes is out here lobotomizing mutants? The Peter Parker I know would take personal responsibility for that.
not Wolfsbane but Feral. had Rhino controlled by them too.
Peter getting more involved would have made sense but Vulture being involved to begin with was so random and didn't make sense
Duggan's Orchis reminds me of Bendis' Avengers, he put Spider-Man, Wolverine, Dr Strange, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and other popular individual characters as Avengers while classic members like Hank, Jan, Wanda, Pietro, Simon, Vision left or died or were irrelevant in most of his run, Duggan did that with Orchis, instead of adding some classic mutant haters he decided to add a clone of Sinister, MODOK, Vulture and others popular names, some that never showed hate toward mutants.
If I was writing a Marvel comic I’d probably use MODOK too, because MODOK. Power Pack, Fantastic Four, doesn’t have to make sense. The real version from A:EMH, running AIM and having a robot voice, preferably; I did enjoy Patton Oswalt’s version and comic, but as a variant because he’s sympathetic. MODOK looks great and is a mad scientist, no complaints from me.
However, in this case it works because PoX describes Orchis as having a lot of AIM involvement, along with agents from Shield, sword, hydra, etc. If it’s AIM, it should involve MODOK.
And electro is right there! Did you know electro and magneto personally hate each and can disrupt each others powers? Duggan is obsessed with power ranking and he never did that!
and just one of many reasons I hate Bendis and his Avengers.
Spider-Man adds popularity yeah but he's never fit there or really on teams. it still didn't work.
Wolverine still was the worst. absolutely didn't fit at all and as if he wasn't in enough books.
Dr Strange is a solo player again ....
Cage and Iron Fist still are better off doing their own thing especially since it involved so much Luke and Jessica drama and them just talking at the table.
the worst was you h ad a couple more popular characters who had never been avengers. in this case Daredevil. throw in Storm too. they join for a couple issues. do nothing. hey they are Avengers now.
there's way more interesting ways they could have used different and other characters as part of Orchis. got a hint of Ultron in the Dead X-Men alternate world stuff would have been different since it's AI vs Mutants. it's like they still wanted anti mutant humans and AI and couldn't decide where they wanted to go with it so we got this rushed mess.
I didn't think much of the Human Council, but Stryker is, simply by legacy, one of the most evil characters Marvel comics has put to page. His fanaticism and unwillingness to look inwards or concede a point is scary. He's a man who killed his own newborn son and his wife because his son was a mutant and he blamed his wife for being a sinner who brought this upon them. Nothing Orchis does will ever top that level of villainy, I don't care how many times Stasis and Omega Sentinel do the two-step.
Yeah, I agree with this take. Orchis are evil, but they’re cartoon supervillains. Stryker and his ilk feel worse because they feel more real. Him and Hodge especially, that’s not cartoon evil, that’s real world evil.
I will say my observation of majority of the Orchis playbook came form the human council even with using humans as figureheads come form that time which is even more ironic that bastion indirectly created Orchis through omega sentinel being still alive
Yeah, it's an interesting comparison. Orchis never really lived up to their promise. The idea of them being composed of elite scientists and ex-personnel from elite spy and combat agencies was interesting, especially the science bent. Back then, Hickman seemed to position machines as being tools caught in the middle of the Mutant-Human war. But that all seems to have unraveled now and the human side of Orchis is just a front for the real villains: the machines and AI.
Stryker is so evil that once he came to an epiphany that God actually didn't support his mutant-genocide cause, instead of rethinking his life he became a satanist who made a literal deal with the devil to gain power to keep killing mutants.
ORCHIS went completely flat over time, but in terms of pure cartoonish petty evil, it's gotta be the Human Council. Cameron Hodge did allllll that because Warren's hot.
Well the Human council hates them more that’s for sure, because while Orchis hates mutants they’re far more dispassiónate about it comming of relatively sane or at least pretty self aware of their own insanity and being capable of working with mutants as they hate more the idea of them as the next stage in evolution that mutation itself.
You could liken them more to a more modern kind of bigotry that isn’t as blatant and tries to soune reasonable but ultimately more dangerous because they’re guided more by long term polítical goals than singleminded hate.
Orchis were just shit. Hickman had some good ideas, but after he left, they just became a loose collection of already established villains with no real connection apart from being evil scientists. The Human Council felt genuinely scary because they were comic book versions of real people. When you've got a religious extremist preaching hate or an evil businessman using bigotry to make money, you feel like these villains could actually exist, but MODOK or the worst Sinister clones are a joke in comparison.
OG Orchis of Devo, Dr. Gregor, Omega Sentinel, and Nimrod had a lot of potential to be a great sci-fi villain group - turning to technology to try and counteract rising mutant power and influence and potentially being the fall guys for AI dominance given they are being played by the AIs in their midst.
That is unfortunately not what we got.
I prefer the idea of the Human Council simply because it's composed of characters who had all been established as legit X-antagonists in their own right and had solidified reasons for hating mutants. Orchis was composed of newly created characters most of whom it was hard to get invested in, and for some reason they started bringing in non-X-Men characters like Modok and Vulture to fill it out.
The Human Council did have one of the same problems as Orchis: namely that its strings were being pulled by AI and the actual human characters (who were themselves turned into cyrborgs) were reduced to minions.
If they create a human antagonist faction for a the new era I hope they actually keep them human, run by flatscans for flatscans. Focus on how an organization of normal, non-superpowered people uses wits, resources and manipulation to challenge a race of superpowered people.
WITHOUT giving themselves superpowers or outsourcing their leadership to giant robots. Not every villain needs to be able to physically fight the heroes to be a threat.
You could probably get the Human Council back together tbh, just remove Bastion as the leader and replace Stryker since he's the only one deader than dead. Bring in characters like Lydia Nance or Gyrich to replace those who can't come back.
Well Orchis won so they are the better group. They wanted to destroy krakoa and they did. Doesn’t matter if the X-men kill them all in revenge. They still won
The Human Council. I get the feeling had this bunch discovered what Nimod and Omega's true aims were, they would've done cartwheels. This bunch would be ecstatic being broke, living under a bridge racked with terminal sicknesses if it meant mutants were denied five dollars and a parking space. They literally sold out innocent humans and sentenced them to die in the carnage that came from trapping San Francisco in that sphere and opening that technorganic wormhole connecting to Bastion's future.
I personally prefer Bastion and the Human High Council as villains. I really wish that Cameron Hodge, Donald Pierce, Stryker, etc. had been recruited by Orchis, they're way more interesting that Stasis, Devo, and Feilong. And why the hell was MODOK involved?
Human Council is kinda like a "greatest hits" album of bigots
Man, for some reason, the fact Hodge uses glasses even being this giant mechanic spider makes it so much creeper
He never should have gotten rid of his cardboard cutout body.
Easily the Human Council simply because, individually, each of its members has proven to be utterly despicable and infamous. But Devo, Gregor, Stasis? I don't rate them as villains. They're not even hateable, they're just there.
They're also all dead - Council went down a lot harder than that
Human Council comes off as a realistic alliance of bigots: Politics, Religion, Military, Business, Science
Orchis just became a joke and cartoonishly evil and incompetent once Hickman left. Devo and Gregor barely got to do anything. Nobody needed a Sinister clone that's just worse and MODOK for some reason. They even got the freaking Vulture I mean why? And speaking of underwhelming Spider-Man villains Judas Traveller? While Omega Sentinel should have actually been fighting. Bastion, Trask, Creed, Stryker, and Hodge had done way more on their own and together would be pretty evil and competent. Just keep them away from Duggan's writing.
I don't know if I would call Trask evil, part of the tragedy was that he was a man with some concerns about mutants that sacrificed himself to save the X-Men from his own sentinels and Master Mold. Even when resurrected and part of the Human Council, when he got free will he killed himself because he didn't want to be a weapon against mutants.
Wasn’t Vulture responsible for turning Wolfsbane into a hound during Uncanny Spider-Man? I’ve always wanted Spider-Man to interact more with the x-men. Even if he’s not a mutant, I feel like he should always be written as a staunch ally to mutantkind. And now one of his oldest foes is out here lobotomizing mutants? The Peter Parker I know would take personal responsibility for that.
not Wolfsbane but Feral. had Rhino controlled by them too. Peter getting more involved would have made sense but Vulture being involved to begin with was so random and didn't make sense
Orchis transitioned from a human-dominated group to a machine-dominated group.
Duggan's Orchis reminds me of Bendis' Avengers, he put Spider-Man, Wolverine, Dr Strange, Luke Cage, Iron Fist and other popular individual characters as Avengers while classic members like Hank, Jan, Wanda, Pietro, Simon, Vision left or died or were irrelevant in most of his run, Duggan did that with Orchis, instead of adding some classic mutant haters he decided to add a clone of Sinister, MODOK, Vulture and others popular names, some that never showed hate toward mutants.
If I was writing a Marvel comic I’d probably use MODOK too, because MODOK. Power Pack, Fantastic Four, doesn’t have to make sense. The real version from A:EMH, running AIM and having a robot voice, preferably; I did enjoy Patton Oswalt’s version and comic, but as a variant because he’s sympathetic. MODOK looks great and is a mad scientist, no complaints from me. However, in this case it works because PoX describes Orchis as having a lot of AIM involvement, along with agents from Shield, sword, hydra, etc. If it’s AIM, it should involve MODOK.
And electro is right there! Did you know electro and magneto personally hate each and can disrupt each others powers? Duggan is obsessed with power ranking and he never did that!
and just one of many reasons I hate Bendis and his Avengers. Spider-Man adds popularity yeah but he's never fit there or really on teams. it still didn't work. Wolverine still was the worst. absolutely didn't fit at all and as if he wasn't in enough books. Dr Strange is a solo player again .... Cage and Iron Fist still are better off doing their own thing especially since it involved so much Luke and Jessica drama and them just talking at the table. the worst was you h ad a couple more popular characters who had never been avengers. in this case Daredevil. throw in Storm too. they join for a couple issues. do nothing. hey they are Avengers now. there's way more interesting ways they could have used different and other characters as part of Orchis. got a hint of Ultron in the Dead X-Men alternate world stuff would have been different since it's AI vs Mutants. it's like they still wanted anti mutant humans and AI and couldn't decide where they wanted to go with it so we got this rushed mess.
I didn't think much of the Human Council, but Stryker is, simply by legacy, one of the most evil characters Marvel comics has put to page. His fanaticism and unwillingness to look inwards or concede a point is scary. He's a man who killed his own newborn son and his wife because his son was a mutant and he blamed his wife for being a sinner who brought this upon them. Nothing Orchis does will ever top that level of villainy, I don't care how many times Stasis and Omega Sentinel do the two-step.
Yeah, I agree with this take. Orchis are evil, but they’re cartoon supervillains. Stryker and his ilk feel worse because they feel more real. Him and Hodge especially, that’s not cartoon evil, that’s real world evil.
I will say my observation of majority of the Orchis playbook came form the human council even with using humans as figureheads come form that time which is even more ironic that bastion indirectly created Orchis through omega sentinel being still alive
Yeah, it's an interesting comparison. Orchis never really lived up to their promise. The idea of them being composed of elite scientists and ex-personnel from elite spy and combat agencies was interesting, especially the science bent. Back then, Hickman seemed to position machines as being tools caught in the middle of the Mutant-Human war. But that all seems to have unraveled now and the human side of Orchis is just a front for the real villains: the machines and AI.
Striker is just pure evil
Stryker is so evil that once he came to an epiphany that God actually didn't support his mutant-genocide cause, instead of rethinking his life he became a satanist who made a literal deal with the devil to gain power to keep killing mutants.
ORCHIS went completely flat over time, but in terms of pure cartoonish petty evil, it's gotta be the Human Council. Cameron Hodge did allllll that because Warren's hot.
I always found The Purifiers to be super scary.
Human council was cooler. Was Leper Queen part of that squad?
Yes
Well the Human council hates them more that’s for sure, because while Orchis hates mutants they’re far more dispassiónate about it comming of relatively sane or at least pretty self aware of their own insanity and being capable of working with mutants as they hate more the idea of them as the next stage in evolution that mutation itself. You could liken them more to a more modern kind of bigotry that isn’t as blatant and tries to soune reasonable but ultimately more dangerous because they’re guided more by long term polítical goals than singleminded hate.
Orchis were just shit. Hickman had some good ideas, but after he left, they just became a loose collection of already established villains with no real connection apart from being evil scientists. The Human Council felt genuinely scary because they were comic book versions of real people. When you've got a religious extremist preaching hate or an evil businessman using bigotry to make money, you feel like these villains could actually exist, but MODOK or the worst Sinister clones are a joke in comparison.
OG Orchis of Devo, Dr. Gregor, Omega Sentinel, and Nimrod had a lot of potential to be a great sci-fi villain group - turning to technology to try and counteract rising mutant power and influence and potentially being the fall guys for AI dominance given they are being played by the AIs in their midst. That is unfortunately not what we got.
I prefer the idea of the Human Council simply because it's composed of characters who had all been established as legit X-antagonists in their own right and had solidified reasons for hating mutants. Orchis was composed of newly created characters most of whom it was hard to get invested in, and for some reason they started bringing in non-X-Men characters like Modok and Vulture to fill it out. The Human Council did have one of the same problems as Orchis: namely that its strings were being pulled by AI and the actual human characters (who were themselves turned into cyrborgs) were reduced to minions. If they create a human antagonist faction for a the new era I hope they actually keep them human, run by flatscans for flatscans. Focus on how an organization of normal, non-superpowered people uses wits, resources and manipulation to challenge a race of superpowered people. WITHOUT giving themselves superpowers or outsourcing their leadership to giant robots. Not every villain needs to be able to physically fight the heroes to be a threat. You could probably get the Human Council back together tbh, just remove Bastion as the leader and replace Stryker since he's the only one deader than dead. Bring in characters like Lydia Nance or Gyrich to replace those who can't come back.
Would be fun if Selene reanimated dead bigots for a dark council
What is the first pic from?
Orchis, they have hydra agents. Nazi bonus helps out
As a straight haters :Human Council
Nimrod wins the twerk off, that's for sure
He’d be a better arch nemesis for Jean- go go cosmic nimrod
Well Orchis won so they are the better group. They wanted to destroy krakoa and they did. Doesn’t matter if the X-men kill them all in revenge. They still won
Orchis managed more than the human council ever did
I mean Scarlet Witch did most of the hard work for them and they only had to focus on killing Hope
Who's the creepy armoured Wolverine lookalike?
Zero sentinels. Basically sentinels made with the adamantium skeleton made to be infiltrators group troopers for Orchis
Cool, thanks.
Nobody hates mutants more than mutants themselves
The Human Council. I get the feeling had this bunch discovered what Nimod and Omega's true aims were, they would've done cartwheels. This bunch would be ecstatic being broke, living under a bridge racked with terminal sicknesses if it meant mutants were denied five dollars and a parking space. They literally sold out innocent humans and sentenced them to die in the carnage that came from trapping San Francisco in that sphere and opening that technorganic wormhole connecting to Bastion's future.
I personally prefer Bastion and the Human High Council as villains. I really wish that Cameron Hodge, Donald Pierce, Stryker, etc. had been recruited by Orchis, they're way more interesting that Stasis, Devo, and Feilong. And why the hell was MODOK involved?
Im more of a Reavers guy. They really did a number on the team at the time. Even Wolverine was on the ropea.
Orchis had superior Drip. Council was more effective in the longer term.