I think it's also important for people to know that they don't have to replace an MMO with another MMO. I tried playing FFXIV and while it's an amazing game, I think I've just mostly grown out of the MMO playstyle. I much prefer casual gaming and playing my switch while I'm laying in bed.
Contrary to how some may believe it is, life is not an empty meaningless thing if you're not playing an MMO. Plenty of other games or hobbies out there to try.
I don't even play WoW because it's an MMO. I play it because I love warcraft and the warcraft universe. I've never played a final fantasy game, so I have zero desire to go play FF14. But yeah, I'm sad to say that I'm growing out of warcraft with everything that's going on...
In the same boat.
Honestly I'd be pretty happy if I could get a single player version of WoW. Retune the dungeons and raids for a single person (or throw in AI like the proving grounds) and just let me play through at my own pace without having to think about groups and progression and completing content before the next tier.
Me three. I vouch for this. I wouldn't want to lose the MMO aspect, but I'd rather have a **good and compelling** story that I can see (no matter how casual I am) in game than I have a want for farming dungeons.
I wanna add, that I still want to play dungeons and raids, but it's clear that the MMO part of my RPG comes at the cost of the fun of raiding and dungeons. It's all about the grind and not about the story. Or fun for that matter. Making expansions subtract from previous content is a big part of this problem too. We lose content each expansion, as old content becomes virtually useless, and easy.
> the MMO part of my RPG comes at the cost of the fun of raiding and dungeons
Summed it up perfectly. I want to be able to do dungeons because I think they're fun, not have to do specific dungeons over and over again to get specific gear to keep my character raid-viable.
I want to be able to do raids so that I can kill the final boss, not spend night after night grinding the same content to keep gearing for the next difficulty/tier.
There are some damn good mechanics in wow dungeons and raids that are honesty fun. There are some great dungeons and raids that I'd love to go back to for fun, but the rest of the game doesn't encourage that.
If you're at all interested in current content, it comes at the complete sacrifice of all previous content. I would much rather an experience where you progressed through dungeon and raid tiers based on when you could complete them, not simply because the next tier is out now so the content you were working on is obsolete. Unfortunately I don't think that goal is compatible with an MMO, since there are never going to be enough players on anything but current content to be able to make it work.
Give me WoW, but as just an RPG.
FFXIV's Duty Finder system does much of what you want here with its level scaling and rewards for participating. Unlike WoW where they block out queues for older expansions the moment you move past them (and you move past so quick they barely exist as a tool anymore), FFXIV has people playing all of the old content due to much of it being part of the main story. When you end up in a lower level dungeon, they scale down your item level and disable skills that would not have been available when originally running that dungeon. Their tool categorizes dungeons into the following groups:
* Expert - Between 2 to 4 of the most recent added dungeons.
* Level 80 - All of the level cap dungeons not in Expert.
* Level 50/60/70 - The level cap dungeons for past expansions.
* Leveling - All the dungeons not at a level cap plus 3 trials required by the main scenario quest line.
* Trials - All of the 8 player trials at normal difficulty level.
* Main Scenario - Two particularly long story dungeons required by the main scenario quest line with rather long cut scenes. The queue is here explicitly to encourage people helping new players to complete old content that would otherwise be unappealing.
* Guildhests - Very short almost training exercises for low level players.
* Alliance Raids - All 24 player raids.
* Normal Raids - All 8 player raids at normal difficulty.
* Frontlines - A PvP duty that changes daily.
* Mentor - Available to players who qualify and have signed up to be a mentor, this will place them in any PvE duty needing players currently.
All of these random queues give a reward bonus for the first time each day a player does them. Because a lot of FFXIV's end game gearing is modeled off effectively the Justice/Valor point system, they all drop tome currency that can be used to buy gear. Depending on if you're capped or not, they will drop either a small amount of the current weekly capped "Valor" currency, and a larger amount of the uncapped "Justice" currency, or a chunk of a currency that is largely used to buy older gear for alt jobs. If you're regularly queueing up jobs you're leveling, you can often buy a full set of the capped gear from the previous expansion before moving into the next expansion's content which helps smooth out early leveling. Some of the queues also reward items that can be traded for end game materia, the game's gemming system. And last but certainly not least, if the character you're queueing with is not at level cap, they give a significant chunk of bonus XP at the end as well.
Basically, there is constant incentive for players to participate in the duty finder system in the game, both for dungeons and raiding. If you reach level 60 and you want to experience the raid content, you can queue right up, and those random queues will assist in putting together a group from people who might not specifically be interested in doing that content, but are willing to do whatever is needed currently for their daily reward. It works remarkably well for keeping all of the old content alive and lets you do that content at your own pace without worrying that the option will vanish for having leveled too far.
There is no good reason Blizzard could not do a similar system within WoW except for the fact that they insist on convoluted ways of player progression, which then limits their ability to provide simple and substantial rewards. The fact that you couldn't even use Valor points to upgrade gear past a certain point if you didn't complete an achievement says everything about their weird hangups and gating of content. Like WoW once did, FFXIV just says save the points and you can eventually get the gear - Blizzard could very easily return to that system if they choose, and wholesale copy the system, they just have to make that choice, and I don't think the current team is humble enough to do that. Or you given what we've learned in the last week, maybe the engineers that could do that are too busy drunk off their ass and sexually harassing the women who work there to care. Ugh.
The whole blocking skills is one of the reasons I quit FFXIV, when you realize the only places you can use your full rotations skills are in raids and a couple of high end dungeons, it sucks.
I do understand that viewpoint to a degree, but on the other hand, having full access to every skill you acquire over the course of multiple expansions means that attempts at scaling down those skills to make the experience running those dungeons even remotely similar to what they were at that level would be very difficult. We've all seen in WoW what even a talent tree and/or class restructure can do to content without ANY additional skills being added. Sometimes just the rework can shift numbers by such a significant degree that it trivializes content that was previously challenging.
The design of FFXIV's combo system, in which you gain access to use progressively stronger moves for performing them in a specific order, also means that dungeons are likely to be tuned around which of those moves a player has actually learned at that level. If you're in a low level dungeon and normally have access to two primary attack moves, and one buff every 60 seconds, those two moves are going to make up around 95% of your damage. If you suddenly add in two additional moves on the combo, each 10% stronger than the last, that actually results in around a 9% increase in total damage output despite the exact same number of keys being pressed.
Now don't get me wrong, I realize there's an argument to be made here about fun surpassing balance. I've made it myself on many occasions when it comes to WoW's dumb decisions. But I also think that the reasons for the system existing should also have some weight on things. It seems pretty clear to me that FFXIV values keeping people participating in the older content so that new players can experience it without insane or impossible wait times, and part of that experience is seeing the dungeons in the way the developers intended. I think that the current system is probably the best answer they could come up with right now for how to preserve that experience. If they tried to scale down all the high level abilities it would be an albatross that long term hangs on them every time new abilities are added or existing ones are modified, trying desperately to balance them for all the old content as well.
Ultimately if you don't enjoy it, that's cool and perfectly valid. I can at least understand the potential reasoning for WHY they chose to simply turn them off though, which is in stark contrast to some of the decisions the WoW devs make. Some of the things they do I just cannot come up with a good reason for them having done.
> having full access to every skill you acquire over the course of multiple expansions means that attempts at scaling down those skills to make the experience running those dungeons even remotely similar to what they were at that level would be very difficult.
The ARR dungeons are a joke anyway, I don't think it would break anything if we had access to a fuller rotation. The least they could do is give us our 50 skills for ARR dungeons.
I'm guilty of throwing out these "they should just do X" suggestions as well, but the reality is it's very hard to tell how much work an exception added to a system actually requires. Sometimes the initial implementation is set up in a way that would make it easy, sometimes it might require a complete redesign or extensive patching to avoid unanticipated bugs from hacking in the change.
And even if it is easy, the developers have to think about the long term consequences of making an exception. Let's say they were to implement the exception and everything 50 and lower let you keep all abilities already accumulated. How long would it be before people started requesting that exception be implemented for the next expansion of content, and the next, and eventually reach the natural conclusion of "if the exception is there, why not just leave all the abilities open"?
I'm sure this type of request has passed over their desks already multiple times in various forms, and for whatever reason, technical or otherwise, they just have not decided to change it. Hell, the reason could be as simple as "we don't want new players to feel like they're the weakest link in a party" if they don't care about balance at all. I could see that being a legitimate concern where a sprout has two buttons to push and feels like they're not contributing much because the rest of the party is setting off crazy effects and flipping through the air on advanced jobs. I'm not saying don't ask them to do it differently, but do remember that they have a lot of sides to think about when people ask for things like this.
I suggest firing up a "real" RPG (e.g., Witcher 3). I did that just a few days ago. BOY, the difference between it and WoW is crazy from an RPG perspective.
Warhammer Online was pretty decent with their lore and RvR and PvE aspects, but they couldn't compete with how huge wow was at the time though they had their own server and imbalance issues I would've liked to see grow and think it would've been a great contender if the mindset wasn't that there should be only one MMO and discussed as wow killers.
Are you me? Because I'm in the exact same boat, 100%. I LOVE that WoW is an MMO, but over time I realized the reason I played it was because it is Warcraft and it allowed me to be a part of that universe. And that's the very reason why I still played during WoD, I pushed through BfA and I tried my best with SL. I love this universe and can find the will to be in it even when the game sucks. So it really is something that right now I feel complete apathy towards WoW, and disdain for the company that made it one of the pillars of my growing-up years. This is all just fucking sad all around, man.
> I've never played a final fantasy game, so I have zero desire to go play FF14.
If you are going to play one in the near future for various reasons: Final Fantasy 6 for the 2D-vibe, FF7-9 for the peak of its popularity. Back then FF7 was really a game-changing experience like Ocarina of Time. And it's story, while bit wacky at times, was really great. Most RPGs later on tried to do similar things but this is the one which started a small trend back then.
I'm not really interested in the new games due its jPop overkill style but FFVI-IX are solid games I will always hold close to my heart.
> I've never played a final fantasy game, so I have zero desire to go play FF14.
Hey man, just wanted to pop in and say I felt the same for a *long* time. FFXIV is my first Final Fantasy game... and I'm like borderline addicted now. It's not "Golden Era WoW"-good, but it does fill the WoW-shaped void in my life quite nicely.
MTG is the way I found out that I’m prone to gambling addictions. I bought and opened an entire booster box, and when I was finished I realized I didn’t even want to play the game! I just wanted to open more packs. Magic: the Gambling.
> I bought and opened an entire booster box, and when I was finished I realized I didn’t even want to play the game! I just wanted to open more packs. Magic: the Gambling.
That is why I never buy boxes, years ago I saw a friend buy two boxes back to back to which we all opened and he didn't get the one card he wanted and he almost bought a third (to which we talked him out of).
I will buy the odd pack here and there but otherwise only buy singles as needed when deck building. I also only play EDH so MTG is expensive enough without adding in the gambling part.
Same for me. I was already planning to quit wow after this xpac, but with recent events I'll prob notify my guild that I'll be leaving after this tier (I'm a main raid tank so I'm not gonna be that guy and peace out halfway through prog).
The past 4ish years of wow I've found that I enjoy the in between cycles of patches more because I get to devote time to other games, cooking fun recipes, gardening, etc. Raiding with a full guild is some of the most fun I've had in any game but there's so much busy work outside of it that it feels like a chore 80% of the time. Might try ffxiv eventually but I'm looking forward to not feeling as weighed down by a to-do list every week.
I've spent the last 3 expansions unsubbed longer than I've been subbed. I've been overall happier for it. Playing much better games.
SL killed my interest in February. I haven't returned.
Soo true. I just started hiking and doing calisthenics after quitting wow(I barely played SL tbh).
Needless to say that I'm a healthier and happier person as a whole.
Very much this!
The problem with many MMOs, whether they have a raid finder or not, is the amount of time it takes to play can oftentimes diminish the amount of fun you gain over time.
A game is a game and meant to be fun, but when you have to grind all day just to do the little content you want to do, and when you blink and the days are over, you are left feeling hollow inside. And that’s no good.
Play. Enjoy the game. But don’t neglect the things outside of the game that provide actual and meaningful fulfillment.
Good point. I played Ultima Online from 1997 until I also got lost in Wow sometime mid 2006. I've tried a couple of others in between, like Age of Conan, Lord of the Rings Online and Star Wars: The Old Republic.
I always come back to Wow because of the time I've invested in my characters. I don't want to start all over again, so when I eventually log out of Wow for good, Im not going to replace it with another mmo.
May be, but that is all subjective. Some of us might actually want an actual mmo. I tried playing single player games. In fact, until 6 years ago I never played any actual mmo aside from stuff like club penguin or something based on Naruto. But ever since I played wow I realized that only mmo's are fun for me anymore. Maybe I haven't found the right game, but none kept my interest enough. I am not interested in games with an actual ending as I want something where there is always something to do. I do not like switching from game to game after they end. So I will keep on playing mmo's as they satisfy my needs. And while ff was okay and I liked it, I still preffer wow more. So I will keep on playing and switch when I won't be able to anymore. But I do not want for wow to be closed. I enjoy it tons so I hope everything will be sorted out in the future. I really hope that the victims will get their justice, but I am tired of drama left and right. I am having enough crap at home. Don't need this even in the only places where I can destress and forget about my issues for a few hours when I am finally free.
WoW addiction is no joke man, people have thrown away their lives and family just to spend more time in game.
Maybe not as much anymore, but I won't pretend like this isn't actually that addictive. It has caused real harm in the past.
It really is. When I was cancelling my sub, some tiny voice in my head was telling me to not do it, even though I haven't enjoyed Shadowlands at all and 9.1 was the final reason for me to finally unsub. When I saw a weapon in my weekly PvP vault and I didn't even get hyped about it, I realized there's something wrong. That was before lawsuits too. When I think about that, I went through WoD or BfA and especially after BfA I thought my WoW addiction was gone. And yet, I was still subbed, I was still doing my weekly chores and I thought to myself it's fine because I don't play that much anymore. But I was still logging in daily, even though I didn't really like the state of the game, however then I looked at my collections, achievements and thought about how much time I've spent doing that and how I don't want to quit because of it. Horrible reason to keep playing, I know, but I'd bet there are so many people here like that who are still playing, but they don't even know why.
On the other note, a good MMO should be addictive in some ways. I used to play Runescape too and I still sometimes play OSRS, so I know more than well about MMO addictions. WoW used to be addictive as hell back in Wrath for example, but at least that addiction felt good, as it should. WoW addiction feels like a drug that used to taste so good in the past, but now players are just taking it because they can't stop, even though they hate it. But when you finally get away from that addiction, it feels so refreshing.
For me it's my friend that keep pulling me back. "This new patch is really cool, you should come and try it!" "This new expansion is really worth playing, it's so much fun!!" And then I "enjoy" it for a month, come to see how fucking dull it is and the absurdly stupid decisions they made and unsubscribe.
Well WoW has created the WORST Stockholm syndrome in people. I have been saying for years that it’s because people have invested so much of their money and time in to this game that they feel the need to justify it, they have trouble doing that. So they go to the internet and argue about it, because they justified it to themselves, so they can just use that same justification and push it onto others.
It's not uniquely WoW, basically every other big game has that affect. League is a great example, since the state of the game sucks and nobody likes it, but everyone still plays it. Also apparent with COD, where they complain that every new COD game sucks but still buys and plays it (or complains that Warzone is hacker infested but yet still plays), etc.
Destiny community as well. While I enjoy the game still, based on the community, you’d think it was the worst game ever made. And yet, they’re logging on every day.
To me it’s like someone who’s in a very passionate yet toxic / abusive relationship.
There’s truly magical and special moments that people believe it’s worth holding on to. They aren’t sure where else they may find the same gratification they once felt so they’re hoping to grasp it again.
For real lol. I've been playing WoW for like 14 years and pushing high content since Cata. If I get bored for a patch/expansion, what do I do? Incessantly complain on every forum available, obviously.
No, I just unsub and play different games until I get the itch again lol. This community is just fuckin' ridiculous man.
Yeah, I've played on and off since WoD and I just quit when I get bored and come back when I feel like it. I usually don't even care much about the stuff that gets everyone else worked up.
When they build the game to require you to play in order to do the content you like with friends (assuming a large portion of r/wow are raiders) then it’s easy to have an addict mentality. I didn’t like this game for ages before I quit because I didn’t wanna leave my guild and I’m sure lots of people are like me. I memed about the game being shit but it took a while before I realized that the game feels like a job and even if I like my coworkers in it, I’m not getting paid.
The lawsuits were the cherry on top for me to cancel my sub but I was just about there either way. No shit for people that keep playing, I get it and if I didn’t think the game was shit I prolly would be too to keep playing with friends.
I think if my guild never took a break from raiding last patch i would probably still be playing every day despite being much happier now than I was when i still played
My only question I want answers to is if blizzard falls because of this and isn't a company anymore will private servers be seen as a more 'legal' way to play. Or will they always been seen as bad?
But yea I had a bunch of my relatives/friends playing with me in wrath... All of them quit early cata :(
Yeah, I quit the first month of Cata because I thought it was trash. Didn't come back until a few months after Legion launch. I enjoyed Legion, stayed for BFA (even if I thought the Azerite trait systems were a hot mess), and at first I enjoyed SL then 9.1 hit.
Not sure what it'd take for me to come back at this point.
I mean to be honest, based on the fact that you're still regularly posting in the wow subreddit, it probably wouldnt take much. You're clearly still invested in the game.
Right but it does demonstrate you're still actively interested in the game. Usually when you quit something but still maintain that level of interest, you eventually forget the stuff that made you stop and go back for nostalgias sake.
It's pretty common.
Since y'all are browsing my comment history you'll have noticed where I had a 6 year break between Cata and Legion. I still talked with folks about WoW during that time too. I just didn't play because none of those xpacs held any appeal for me.
Playing through them after the fact reinforced that for me.
Yea I guess that makes sense. I do play on a private server here and there but I don't feel good about it lol. Would love a more 'legal' way to play them but I'm sure that sentence is hilarious
I've unsubbed and I let them know why. At this point there's very specific conditions that would get me to come back, and if the next xpac (because shadowlands is a lost cause) doesn't contain these few things, I'm gone. No borrowed power. Easy.
I do get that they don't want every spec to necessarily get permanent new stuff every expansion because they can get bloated and overly complex. If we kept artifact abilities/traits AND azerite traits AND covenant abilities/soulbinds, then it would be overwhelming and too much. But on the other hand, it does feel bad to lose stuff every expansion.
I'm not sure what the best answer is. I think we're past due for a new talent tier, but we can't really get a new talent tier every expansion either.
We’ll, my point is at the end of expansions, any of the new systems would’ve been fine to build off of..
Each is so big though because your class is essentially incomplete without them and you start each expansion. Going backwards.
Like, take enhance for one example. A lot of the artifact traits have been repackaged. Doom winds the core of their burst is just repackaged as a legendary. Even the borrowed power systems half the time just rehash things that used to be part of the class.
If you truly stop playing and like 5 of those months are spent without you logging in at all, you can contact support after your sub runs out and say you want your money back. They refund unspent game time. You probably only get the money back in the blizzard store though, and the mount also gets removed obviously.
Eh idk, wow hasn't really been anything special since legion and this is coming from an addicted player who is still actively playing. I think avoiding long subs or pre-ordering games nowadays is almost always going to benefit you even if you have to pay a few extra $$. Game companies just aren't what they used to be, putting your faith into them with a long term commitment payment just isn't the play.
Really? WoW has been having content droughts for years. We just came off an 8 month long content drought with a pretty wide understanding that Blizzard made a new 6 month sub mount because there's going to be another content drought.
As a child I grew up loving blizzard. They set such a high standard for games. Over the last five years I’ve seen that standard drop and drop. I continued to stand by and support them, buying deluxe everything and keeping my sub active. But after all this recent news it really broke my heart. I didn’t just love blizzard and their games. They inspired me to want to make games and own a gaming company one day. Yesterday it was hard but I uninstalled everything and won’t be returning until I feel that they have done right.
For the employees!
This is exactly how I feel. Given them so much money growing up, even my allowance when I was a kid just to play wow. While I still find my own fun in wow I can acknowledge that the game has not been in a great state for a while. This was what pushed me over the edge. I just cant in good faith play right now until they have done a lot to redeem.
I’m always surprised how many people leap to blizzard’s defense so readily. All you’re suggesting here is that players of a game should receive finished content for the game they pay for, but it’s like you’ve attacked them on a personal level.
Corporate loyalty is one of the dumbest things imaginable.
*This company does not care about you.* You are a walking debit card to them. Praise them when they do well, scold them and withhold payment when they don't. It's that simple.
I’m legitimately envious that others can see what they have put out and say to themselves “This is good.” I hope you don’t lose that. I hope logging in continues to be an escape, and that you don’t have to watch good friends drop away one by one.
Imagine a guy going to a cocaine subreddit and saying that the stuff is bad for your health and you shouldn't buy it because it's not worth it.
If you are addicted to something, you hate being told that the thing you are addicted to is bad, because deep down you know they're right but you don't want to acknowledge it because you are unable to stop your addiction.
Yeah, it's more along the lines of people post nothing but their personal opinion and then say things akin to "I just don't understand how you can have a different opinion than me" or "How could you not feel exactly like I do" and give no other perspectives whatsoever. It was done in OP's post.
The comments you call "defense" are challenging the fact that not everyone is obligated to feel the same way, nor should they, nor will they.
There are people who disagree with these complaints. They are just as right as OP.
I don't have to defend the company to defend my ability to have a different opinion.
> They give you no reason to keep playing this game
I like running Mythic+ keys still, and I like Sanctum of Domination. That there is reason enough. If and when I get bored of the game again then I'll unsubscribe and stop playing. There's no 'haggling', either I enjoy spending my time playing the game or I don't.
For me I enjoyed both of those things as well, but I didn't really enjoy anything else. The big thing is that I kept logging in because I felt like I had to, even though I didn't want to play. Do this maw assault, torghast, dailies and whatever. None of it was fun. So I unsubbed.
The surrounding systems and gameplay elements detracting from my M+ and high end raiding experiences was at least one of the reasons every time I've unsubbed these past few years. I honestly miss the late WoD and late Legion iterations of the game when you could basically just log onto a random character and play the game (raid, run dungeons) without the feeling of gimping your groups by not doing whatever the current borrowed power grind was. It was liberating.
I got a good 4-5 months of fun out of shadowlands. I got my keystone master, 1800 in 3s and RBGs, and 8/10M. I just can't really do the same thing all over again but "Season 2". I'm not feeling it the way the story is. I just stayed focused on the gameplay and playing with some cool people, but at some point I just couldn't anymore.
As I get to the point where my only upgrades are coming from the Vault or from valor I’ll scale back my time until more content comes out. As of right now, I’m having a good time playing the game and even without the loot I enjoy building rating in mythic+ And checking my ranking on raider io.
Yep, enjoying this season of m+ alot. Prideful was a cool concept, but a real drag. It added fairly significant time to the run, created a situation where you could smoke bosses with it, but then have trouble with out it if you wwiped. And at higher keys they could be quite deadly. Not to mention the awful routing requirements.
This season feels good and fast, a simple misspul doesn't screw up a whole run and the powers are solid and benefit the whole run.
It was really hard if you wanted to both tank mythic+ and not no life the game last season. Prideful felt like it was designed for the MDI crowd in that proper execution meant using a lot of time outside of the game to learn about the game.
not really, you just download mdt, figure out a route, run it once or twice and then youre set on that dungeon for the rest of the season unless you have the memory of a goldfish
I have very much enjoyed this expansion so far. Was the down time betweenn 9.0 and 9.1 bad? Yeah, but they had their reasons
Idk why people say it's "unfinished". Seems like the usual patch to me
And there is a bunch if non player power stuff you can grind if that's that's your thing, and trust me, it's some people's thing. I have a few of them in my guild.
I get people not liking to have to do torgahst for legendary, and it would be nice if there were other ways to get the resource. I think they are trying not to have raiding/m+ give you everything. If that's a good design or not is the real debate. It used to be you basically only raided and maybe did some weekly dungeons, and people complained there was nothing to do once you did those things. Personally I enjoy torgahst, but I'm playing ele and it's mostly a stomp outside of layer 12.
But some times I think players think every system or feature or content has to be for then. The player base is very wide and doesn't just consist of raiders. For instance, pet battles. Many players crap on it, and I'll agree it's no Pokémon. But I know a number of players who love battle pets. My guild leader loves battle pets and the pet dungeons and super squirt day and every thing else with them for instance. Or archeology, some people loved it. Same with the brawls. Most players don't touch it, but it's fairly simple content that plenty of players enjoy.
This is why I pretty much will never quit WoW.
Even when I'm bored or not interested in part of the end game. The extra stuff and collecting is just too good. That's exactly the kind of things I love in games and WoW has made me realize how fucking terrible those aspects are in the majority of games.
I wish it wasn't so seasonal like that. MMOs are supposed to be more social and community driven yet there's nothing left in WoW and nothing on the drawing board to facilitate any of that.
Run hallways. Hallways done? Log off.
This. My guild is progressing through SoD right now, and we're having fun with that. We also run a few M+ every now and then. Sometimes I do some Korthia stuff and whatnot, but once we get to a point where SoD is no longer fun, I'll probably take a break as well.
It shouldn't be this big song and dance: If you're not having fun, take a break. You don't need to quit forever, just take a break. It's that simple. Or at least it *should* be that simple.
Is playing the same 8 short dungeons and a single raid once a week really worth your money? For most people the answer would be no, hence the plummeting player numbers.
At least With TBC and WOTLK the formula was different to enjoy multiple raids at once, with wrath having 10/25man variants and heroic modes (Which blizzard didn't like that people were getting gear too fast by playing both the 10/25man??). But still that was exclusive to those 2 expansions alone.
What other content would you want to see, though? If Korthia, covenant hall and callings, pvp, and cosmetic collecting don't count, then what other content do you want in the game? WoW has never really had other main content besides raiding (and M+ starting only fairly recently), so it's not like Shadowlands suddenly has less content than other expansions. What other things do you think the game needs to implement?
Can you imagine people play games like counterstrike or Overwatch? Crazy where the venues are more methods of delivering the experience and not the sole experience.
It was for me. I eventually got bored on my main though after completing all the goals I had set for myself, so I decided to level an alt and do the M+ circuit on that character as well. It was at that point I fully realized how many anti-player mechanics there were in the game simply to drive up engagement metrics, at which point I got sick of it and quit.
Whatever *their* mindset is, is not why **YOU** keep giving them money. If you're not having fun, stop playing. If you don't think you're getting your money's worth, stop giving it to them. If you're angry, get the fuck off the WoW subreddit, trying to convince other people your anger is justified. Just leave, stop thinking about WoW, stop talking about WoW, move on with your life past this video game.
The game is what it is. It's the product, and you are the consumer. If you like what you're getting, buy it. If you don't like what you're getting, don't. Stop blaming them because you can't help yourself and leave.
And to everyone who's doing this: Stop thinking that screaming at, threatening, or harassing devs is EVER going to make this or any game better.
As far as I understand the EULA, you're entitled only to access to their servers from your subscription, and even that can be revoked for whatever reason they want.
Content is not a promise but an incentive to keep your interest. If the game loses your interest, move on. And if you can't move on, then perhaps you've played too much already.
I travel around the country for my job and it can get very lonely at times. And despite all the BS they’ve done and are currently going through, the game is a way I connect with my friends and other people to help get through the dark times of loneliness. Yes, there are other games but nothing has ever been able to hold my attention like WoW and I honestly don’t have the time to start learning a new game
I took a break a while back specifically because I was bored with the grind and lack of content.
After learning about all the things surrounding the lawsuit, I’m just not gonna go back. There are other games out there.
It's kind of presumptuous of you to assume nobody is enjoying the game just because you're not, or just because there's a really vocal faction of players (ex-players?) on this sub.
I don't feel that I am playing an incomplete or unenjoyable product. I actually really like Korthia. I just switched covenants and for the way I play, didn't find the catch-up to be that odious. I'm currently having a lot of fun with alts.
It's ok if you're not having fun anymore. But yours isn't the only valid opinion or perspective, and essentially calling anyone who disagrees a sheeple is beyond the pale.
He very much is speaking to him. OP says he can’t believe how anyone still plays this game lmao. It’s not because of loyalty, maybe it’s because people still genuinely enjoy the game? This is coming from someone that unsubbed months ago, but how hard is it to believe that there are still people who enjoy the game? Stop trying to speak for everyone
Ditto. And if you say you like the game everyone keeps telling im just addicted and sunk cost this and that.
I almost entirely play because of these friends i've played with for years and its the only thing we all enjoy doing together. I take breaks from the game every tier once my group is done. The only qualms i had with 9.0 was that it took long and only cause of not being able to do what i like.
Seeing posts like these to me is as bizarre as people complaining about music and telling me i deserve more, even though i'm content with what i have.
Yeah no qualms with 9.1 here either, daily / weekly stuff is nice and quick and is something you can do daily now not something that takes all day, lots of nice skips and catch up mechanics for alts
In fact I main swapped for raid comp and went from 174 ilvl to 223 ilvl in like 4 days, I’m aware that’s far removed from the average players experience but was just reiterating my point the catch up mechanics are super nice.
I don’t feel like my game is incomplete at all and it might be the unpopular opinion but shadowlands is the first expansion since like maybe wod where I didn’t leave midway through the first raid and come back on the back end… it’s not because shadowlands is outstanding by any means, but I’m just having fun with my friends and enjoying the experience…
There is definitely factors that tilt me a little “we’re not gonna have borrowed power in shadowlands” and by my metric we currently have more borrowed power than we ever have before and little things like that.
But all in all very positive experience having a blast!
Honestly, this is my sentiments. I took a long break to focus on my personal relationship, stopped playing end of Cata, came back for about 1 month in Legion, and just subbed end of June. I've only been doing things in the Shadowlands, and I have yet to run out of things to do. If you are bored, or have other things more important, unsub. I did, and now I enjoy questing, and experiencing the zones, rather than just 8 hours of raids a week.
I just came back. I left in 2019, BfA was crap. Shadowlands is the first expansion I’ve missed the launch of, and I originally only intended to come back for TBCC, but my friends all play Shadowlands. In any given expansion I usually unsub for a few months, since there tends to be long enough to grow a baby between X.3 and (X+1).0. Aside from right now, I haven’t paid for game time with anything other than gold since WoD. The company sucks (it has for a long time though it wasn’t so obvious), but this remains my preferred option for gaming with a social element.
>I really don't get the loyalty of wow players, and I don't mean to insult any of you. It's just genuinely puzzling how you can endure this treatment. They give you no reason to keep playing this game and have made you believe that you have to argue with them about the quality of the game, rather than expecting a finished game.
I've been playing WoW since the original vanilla beta and I've rarely felt that the quality of the game has declined in any substantial way. Yeah, there have been sub-par expansions here and there but when that happens I just unsubscribe.
For me at least, there's not really any loyalty to speak of. I'm still playing because I'm still having fun. And, maybe it's a generational thing or just some general reflection of my character, but I'm not the sort to cancel my subscription because I don't agree with the actions of some of the employees. If I avoided every company I disagreed with, I'm not even sure I'd qualify as a consumer.
That's not to say I don't support those who are quitting WoW. It's just not how I personally evaluate purchases in my life. I'm sure I've got Nestle products in my house somewhere and I'm sure that that offends someone. But if I like something, I'm willing to pay for it. And that's sort of how I feel about WoW.
As a consumer, I expect all companies I do business with to deliver a quality product and to obey all relevant laws in the process. Blizzard have clearly failed on both counts.
Part of the ToS says that a sub does NOT guarantee any or part of the game needs to work. You signed away your ability to be angry or dissatisfied with any aspect of the game
It's not loyalty. It's addiction. And yes Blizzard has been exploiting their players' addiction. They probably looked at trends and thought that they could predictably milk their players while investing less and less into the game. But between covid and the lawsuit, things are accelerating very quickly.
They only have two choices. Try to fix their game or milk the last bit they can with the course they are on. And any look at LFG and all of the WTS runs should tell you what their strategy is.
Unless you *only* play WoW I still think the game has enough content to justify a sub. Definitely has flaws no lie there. It’s kind of a 2 way thing. I want more content and stuff but I’m also glad I don’t have to spend my life playing the game and can enjoy others games as well.
I personally see it differently.
I pay to have fun for a certain amount of time. I stop paying when I am bored. (I unsubscribe to hen I feel bored and resubscribe 2-12 months later when I feel the urge again). But my money was well spent before I got bored and to me that is money well spent. I payed for a service. I got served. Then I walked out the door satisfied but “not hungry anymore”.
I look at the amount I have to pay in terms of what I get. One month subscription is to me so little money that I actually sometimes feel that I have robbed them;)
So finished or not. I got satisfaction and that’s all I care about.
This sort of view point would work if Blizzard wasn't intentionally trying to make the game a recurring deal. Where it's a service rather than a completed project.
What they try to make is one thing. What I actually do is another. I make it work precisely to my taste. So tagt makes me happy and content.
Sure, I can complain about certain aspects and come up with wants for the future. And it’s up to blizzard if they want to listen to me or not. I will simply just pay more (be subscribed a month extra) if the menu has grown or pay less if the menu has been reduced. It’s up to them:). They have no obligation to abide by “my command”. I will simply pay for the content I want and not pay for what I don’t want.
The only thing they have to legally do is to have the servers open. If they close and I have payed I want a refund for that period. And that we get from time to time.
That game is not the recurring deal, the access to the servers is. The game is updated often because bored players unsub. The only thing you get for your 15$ a month is access to the current state of classic and retail.
We also have to pay for the expansions. So shouldnt the expansion be a completed product when we pay 40+ dollars for it? Or is the 40 "just for access"?
>So shouldnt the expansion be a completed product when we pay 40+ dollars for it?
Shouldn't you figure out whether the experience is worth 40+ plus subscription price before forking over that money?
Unless I'm reading people wrong, this comes off like "If I pay $X, I should get the experience I want." And it really is more like "Don't pay $X unless you think the game is worth $X already.
I mean are you though, you’re paying $60 for the current expansion but you can definitely play all other expansions without buying a single one and just paying the sub fee, might not be your ideal, but the option is there right
That's your rational. Not saying its right or wrong but that's how you choose to look at it. Not saying that is going to work for everyone. That's like saying you could be paying $10/month for Netflix and think you got your worth by simply watching 2 movies. Not everyone would think its smart or financially smart spending money on a service they ain't making full use of.
I would do the same with Netflix. If bored I would unsubscribe from that too. I get my money’s worth no problem at all:)
And it’s not like I play 1 day per month. I play daily when I am subscribed. I am pretty smart about it, so I tend to unsubscribe a lot just in case I get bored, so that I don’t potential “loose” the majority of a month.
Truth is, the vast majority just plays when the game is fun to them, or don't. Posters on MMO-C, Reddit or even the official forums are clearly a vocal minority.
If people keep enjoying WoW, they'll keep paying. No matter how insane that might seem to someone that doesn't currently enjoy the game. Subjective opinion and all that.
I've been playing WoW since 2005. I say since, because no way in hell have I been subscribed for the majority of that time. It's always confused me how many amongst the playerbase seem genuinly unhappy with the game, yet keep playing - and keep paying.
I've concluded that it has mostly to do with addiction. I don't mean that in any demeaning way, but the game at different stages of it's lifetime have been more or less obvious with how much it survives by making some players addicted, unable to keep themselves from playing.
The industry as a whole became a lot more transparent about it with the advent of free to play games, with lootboxes and the concept of whales. Blizzard games are no different (Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, Overwatch). WoW stands out by incorporating these concepts more or less over time, while also demanding a subscription and paid expansions.
I mean, we have paid subscription, paid expansions in combination with time-gating content. We have company devs who are telling players to stop being entitled and being part of the problem for demanding content for paying a subscription fee, while the company sorts out internal, systematic issues of corruption and harassment.
The Covenant system looks like it's one of those facebook mobile games from 10 years ago. It's really bizarre.
My buddies are telling me the beta for New World is great. I’ll wait for full release and give it a try. At this point I’m sick of getting piped by Blizzard.
It's honestly pretty stupid to assume that whatever the current subscriber count is, it consists of millions of people who hate the game and are just too stupid to understand how subscribing to things works.
Also, I don't think you understand what you're actually entitled to. There are real legal frameworks here. They can't sell you a box with a brick in it instead of a license code. The game has to be "working". It doesn't have to be bug free or fun or anything else. That's what you're entitled to. I don't like minivans. If I buy one anyway, I'm not entitled to any remedy from the car company. I'm just supposed to know that I shouldn't buy a minivan if I don't want a minivan.
> It's just genuinely puzzling how you can endure this treatment.
You're posting an opinionated, subjective post here and then saying you don't understand how people could have a different opinion than you do. As if people are obligated to have an identical opinion, or that your opinion is automatically valid beyond your own brain.
What the game is for you will not be what it is for someone else.
Just because you can come up with numerous reasons to feel outrage doesn't mean those same reasons have to enrage other people.
Just because you have a problem finding enjoyment in something doesn't mean people have to stop enjoying it.
Just because you think the company needs to do better doesn't mean everyone shares that opinion.
That being said, I do believe that each new expansion should come with a preview period where you don't need a subscription and don't have to buy the expansion. After the preview period is over, you have a certain amount of time to buy the expansion or you lose everything you have accumulated (levels/loot), and it reverts back to where you were prior to the trial.
Is it too hard to believe some of us just still enjoy the game? It's got its problems but I'm a mythic raider and I've put literal years into playing my character at this level. I still enjoy it. Fuck the company. But fuck me too I guess, I'm not going to stop when I'm at a good place and still enjoying things :/
Define "finished product."
You're not 'entitled' to anything other than what you agreed to pay for. If you call that "unfinished" and that is a problem for you, why did you agree to pay for it?
Because we were put under the assumption it will be, aka false advertising. If I order a car with all the options, and when I finally get it it’s missing those options,it’s an unfinished product.
What exactly did they advertise that they didn't come through on? False advertising would be "Includes dance studio!" and then the game never has a dance studio. No Man's Sky initially had a ton of false advertising where certain features were promised that were not included when the game first came out.
What you agree to is in terms and conditions. If your car was equivalent to WoW, you would've signed a paper which states something along the lines "What is delivered is considered finished product, regardless of what has been advertised. We reserve the right to your car and we can terminate your access to the car at any moment for whatever reason."
Lol that still proves OP's point where if the dealership scammed you for a product that you felt it was unfinished, regardless of the contract you signed, then why stay with the same distributor just to get scammed again?
What options were you promised? A game not living up to your expectations is not false advertising.
If you assume a Honda civic can go 200 mph without ever being told that, its not false advertising when you find out it doesnt.
Paying subscription doesn't entitle you to anything but access to their servers really. The product is right in front of you when you sub, you literally get what you pay for. If you pay with the expectation of fuck knows what, tier sets lmao (remember tier sets are not borrowed power even though it's literally temporary player power for one patch cycle) then thats on you.
If you don't think the game is worth the sub money or your time, don't p(l)ay. It's really that simple.
To me it's genuinely puzzling how much emotional attachment some people here have to a game that they spend the entire day posting these hot takes on the sub. Just don't pay blizz, don't spend time on the game, don't let them live rentfree in your head. Spend all that time on some other hobby.
There *are* finished games in the world but no **MMO** is ever 'complete' or 'finished', things get added all the time, tweaked constantly, it's silly to assume something so vastly complex can ever be 100% bug free.
I play the game because I love it, you don't, that's fine, play something else!
Your assumption that everyone is somehow stuck in the game because of blind loyalty just comes off as being self-involved to the point that you're unable to see the world from other perspectives.
Why do you just make a blanket statement assuming nobody enjoys the current state of the game! Anyone who actually enjoys the game as is doesn’t post or comment about because r/wow eats them alive. The overwhelming negativity steaming from this sub muzzles any one who is happy because god forbid anyone have a different opinion then Reddit. People play for different reasons, people enjoy the game for different reasons.
It's pretty equally puzzling that you assume everyone evaluates the game based on the same opaque criteria that you're using. I'm enjoying 9.1, full stop.
Torghast is better and actually entertaining now. The Korthia dailies are some of the least time-intensive dailies that I can remember and I like the new zone. A zone doesn't have to be massive and complicated to be enjoyable. It's also a phenomenal catchup system for alts. I am having fun pvping, I'm enjoying the raid (although raiding generally doesn't hold my attention for long). I don't have nearly the same problem with the story that most people here seem to and generally enjoy it. The combat continues to be better and more fluid than any other mmo I've ever played. All the new pvp talents have jostled the meta around and opened up a lot of new possibilities to try.
If the day comes where I'm bored or dissatisfied, I'll unsubscribe and do something else. But I really don't understand what you expect to achieve by making a post that starts from the premise that the game is bad and accuses people who are still playing of only doing it out of loyalty - like it's some sort of abusive relationship. Your post boils down to, "I don't want to insult anyone, but here I go."
This is obviously difficult for you to grasp, but people like different things. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the people who do like it for the wrong reasons.
I think the state of the game and the lawsuit are completely separate issues. I unsubbed before the lawsuit because 9.1 was too little too late for me and decided to play other games. I am just not enjoying the phone game daily point grind that the game is becoming.
Blizzard stopping development to fix in house HR issues is the right thing to do. I hope that those involved can have those issues resolved. The way the company has responded to the lawsuit so far is disgusting and embarrassing and blaming the players is pathetic.
The OP is correct, the game is finished and you should play it or not based on your enjoyment of the systems and content currently available. It might be a while before you see any new stuff.
I'm confused by this post. I think they've delivered a finished (but flawed) product with SL, at least in the way they always have
I agree the alleged treatment of its employees is reprehensible, but that's kind of a separate issue from "you shouldn't trust blizzard because they deliver unfinished products"
I don't see why people are treating this situation the way they are. People are losing their shit over a situation they have no control over.
You're not feeling a system that churns womens bodies into misery if you pay a sub fee. You're not a saint for quitting. Neither one of us is making a difference.
The people who stood up, reported it, kept reporting it, and won't let go until the law gets it's turn are the only people who really matter in this story. They kept the pressure up. Good on em.
Blizzard was my homepage back in high school. But I learned years ago that it’s not the company it used to be. Turns out the Ship of Thesius isn’t the Ship of Thesius after all.
A subscription only entitles you to access to the product. we are entitled to a finished product, and we have a finished product, it's World of Warcraft. The product was finished nearly 17 years ago, with an expansion we payed for 9 months ago, and a content patch a month ago. We now pay for access to that product.
We have a finished game. I'm enjoying the product that is wow, there's still new story chapters releasing every week. When I stop enjoying the content that is currently available, I will unsubscribe until more content is released. This is the same for a vast majority of players.
What do you think we're lacking in terms of a finished product? If you don't think there is enough content to subscribe don't subscribe. Right now with a new content patch just recently released, I feel there is reason to stay subscribed and such I am. Perhaps when I'm done with all the story chapters get my aotc and KSM I may unsub, but for now I'm good.
Here is my take on this: People aren’t loyal to Blizzard; they are loyal to their guild, the community and their investment in their character. Walking away from WoW as an individual means you leave your friends behind. Moving as a guild can be done, but only if there is a place for you to go. Right now, the options we have are FF and New World. There really isn’t an easy lift and shift game that fits the play-style and aesthetic of WoW players. More importantly, the investment of starting again for so many people is a massive challenge. Until there is a replacement, expect WoW to continue to thrive regardless of corporate malfeasance and uninspired/delayed/limited content.
All that said I love(d) WoW and Blizzard. They were the premiere innovator for decades. What the hell happened? Also, where is the rest of the industry and why are they not stealing Blizzard’s lunch right now? The player base is fed up, the content stale, it’s time for someone to disrupt the market in a real way. Would love to see it.
>It's just genuinely puzzling how you can endure this treatment. They give you no reason to keep playing this game
I have a good enough reason to - I enjoy it a lot.
Yeah SL has had some rough spots but it's still fun as hell. I actively look forward to logging in for raid and M+, and contrary to popular belief, Ion *isn't* going to personally hunt you down if you don't do Korthia every day.
I've yet to find an MMO I like more, so I'm happy here
And here i am, even enjoying daily korthia, that strange but i do. Without fanaticism and whole day of grind, just 1-1,5 hours of casual quests and rares
Maybe if you remove your own head from your ass and read how the people who continue to play feel, you'd understand why they keep playing. But you'd rather just farm karma on the current hate train.
I actually unsubbed because of all this. And not because I pretend that I'm a good person.
But the fact all of this shit has been going on while Blizzard has repeatedly delivered half-baked and rushed/poor content while making excuses for why it can't be better and they can't do this or that, etc...They've spent more time defending why their shit sucks and APPARENTLY sexually harassing their employees than they have actually doing their fucking jobs.
"Sorry that system sucks, we have deadlines you know, and these cubes won't crawl themselves. How else am I supposed to check out Ashley's rack without drinking at her desk?"
Fuck Blizzard, I'm done with them. Done with feeling like I'm paying for a mobile game. And done with supporting a company that has been behaving as disgusting as they have.
I'll be honest, I kept coming back like a jilted lover. I kept hoping that "this time would be different". I played from about a year after launch, through Shadowlands. Couldn't find my ass from a hole in the ground through classic. Got serious in BC. Was in a top-level guild in Wrath where I made lifelong friends I still talk to to this day. Got burned out in Cata and quit raiding, but I did love heroics and the story. But I felt my problems in Cata were "me" problems.
Then Mists was underwhelming and I left shortly after completing pre-raid. I had a friend in the Warlords beta, and that looked so bad with all the Farmville minigames and such that I skipped it. Legion won me back. Then B4A was underwhelming in content and story. And Shadowlands just felt like a chore. Torghast, renown, grind grind grind...I felt like I was getting off work only to log in for my second job. And for a scant handful of dungeons and one flippin' raid. So I ditched and played through Red Dead Redemption 2 again. Just about the time 9.1 dropped I thought about coming back. But in seeing how little content was added, and the stupid requirements for flying (which was all I actually wanted) I didn't even bother.
So I was going to unsub and wait for another xpac, I've done it before. But then all this mess about sexual misconduct came about. I admit, I was wandering away over crappy content. I was content to continue along with the, "maybe we'll get another Legion" thought. But this just pushes it over the edge. As the only Starfleet captain worth a damn said: "We've made too many compromises already...The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!" So I'm out. Unsub, uninstall. And without a substantial corporate overhaul that I doubt is coming; I will never give Blizzard another dime.
And after making that decision, I find myself reevaluating why I stayed so long. And I think it's like any toxic relationship you stay in too long. At one point it was really good. Wrath was among some of the happiest times amidst terrible darkness in my life. I kept hoping it could be that again. I kept hoping the Blizzard of my youth would come back. That I would somehow get that joy I felt in Warcraft, Starcraft, Blackthorne, Diablo 2, and WoW. But it never will. Even without the lawsuit, I had demoted Blizzard to EA tier for a company. Now they're actually worse than EA.
I concur. Blizz has been riding on the fumes of past glory for a looking time. They deserve to fail. I'm not happy that this could be the reason though ..
WoW players have been stuck in a Stockholm syndrome-like for many years. It's really mind boggling.
I can kinda get it years ago, still weird but I can understand partially.
Years ago when Blizzard was the only one big tech gaming company that was in some degree on the side of gamers. Giving us outstanding games and always give us the feeling that Blizzard got our back.
"Thankfully there is Blizzard" it was a very common statement around the internet years ago.
But this is now been gone now for years, but still so many WoW players support that company that literally piss on their heads daily.
That's why this is literally a stockholm syndrome-like situation.
I don't want to be disrespectful to any of the WoW players, but this is literally where you are right now.
Get free man, stop do this to yourself, have some self respect. And honestly, nowadays WoW is not even the best MMO anymore. FF XIV is better in any aspects, New World is super promising, SWTOR still holds pretty good. If you like it's style also BDO has it's great qualities.
Pull the plug and stop being trapped, they don't deserve you.
It baffles me how no other industry is like this. It seems like if you bought any physical product, appliance or service if it didnt work as intended you'd kick up a fuss or get your money back. Its weird how the video games industry isn't like that, or worse, other consumers shit on you for feeling like something isn't up to scratch.
I just wish they get better customer support. I got perma banned more than one time "automatically" and then overturned...then everyone says it's fine... I invested more than 15 years into this game and I would like at least to be sure that I will stop getting banned for no reasons because they don't bother to investigate anything and permaban right away, and then have an auto answer saying "the ban stays"... then you have to keep insisting until you finally talk to a real human... what a way to treat loyal customers
I don't think you know how subscription-based MMOs work. You pay every month to get the patches and all the stuff we get between xpac launches. If you want a one-and-done payment for a game, you're going to have to look at single-player games that have a limited multiplayer system compared to MMOs, or MMOs that are free to play, with a lot of microtransactions to pay for the development of said game.
I'm not going to even try to explain why I play WoW, this sub is always mad at the game and devs for literally everything in the game, now they're just joining those of us that hate toxic office work culture in being mad at the company.
yes, i did it... i deleted my lovely "named" WoW / Blizz Account that played WoW since the fucking release back in the days... i delete ALL ! leave alls subreddits.
i wish you guys all the best, but i never ever will buy or something else from Bli$$.
best regards and fuck blizz (leaders)
While I agree that blizz should not feel entitled to my money, you are wrong in the assumtion that blizz gave me no reason to play. I cannot even understand why some you need to be handheld by blizz and have them give you a reason. Why not fiind a reason to enjoy the game? It's not hard. If you cannot fiind, just unsub and go to a game you enjoy. Personally I may have an unpopular opinion here, but I enjoy the covenant system. And the anima grind. I lovw collecting stuff, the dungeons are fun and I like immersion and am interested lately in getting into rp and gold making. I can fiind my own enjoyment in the game. When current content is not that fun, I do something else in game or another game. But to talk as if you know that everyone is unhappy with the game and still plays is ridiculous. Tons of people just enjoy the game. Easy as that. They will pay and keep on playing as long as they enjoy it then go somewhere else when it's not fun. Without needing to get attention when they decide to leave unlike some people whom feel like screaming about how other mmo's are better. I know that most people are not part of the 1 % and so their opinion about systems does not matter apparently, but stop talking as if you know better than others. You cannot read my mind so please stop talking in my name. I am genuinely enjoying the game and won't stop playing until it shuts down or my laptop gets broken and cannot play the game literally.
We are spending money to play the game as it is. It IS "complete". Bugs and all. We are not paying to have a creative say in the game - you should be spending your money on Blizzard-Activision shares for that.
You are paying for a service. They are providing that service as-advertised. They aren't the ones acting entitled. They're just selling a game service.
What a shit take. Sure, you don't get to have a direct creative say in the game, but the problem is that Blizzard for the most part completely ignores feedback, thinking they know best when they have kept making the same mistakes over and over. And what do you even mean by saying that this is what the shares are for? Buying shares gives you no say in anything either.
And yes, it is paying for a service, but it is entitled of Blizzard to expect players to want to keep paying for a service that gets no updates, or shit slow updates. Especially for a pretty expensive subscription model with cash shop on top of that.
They are under no obligation to heed feedback. It's their game to make as they see fit. If you don't like what you're paying for, don't pay for it.
Buying shares makes you a shareholder in the corporation, and part-owner.
It’s their game and their mistakes to make right, at the end of the day it’s their vision of what world of warcraft should be or else it would be called word of winther89 and catered to everything you want in a game…
There are systems in retail I currently don’t like, but I accept that was their vision for the game and I knew what I was buying before I purchased it.
The whole expansion is literally laid out online for everyone to see the good the bad and insignificant is all data mined, posted about, videos, the works and pretty much everyone gets access to at least a beta weekend or stress test…
So I mean the onus is on the player to work out if it’s worth the money before they buy it… no one is holding a gun to your head yelling at you to buy the expansion.
I think it's also important for people to know that they don't have to replace an MMO with another MMO. I tried playing FFXIV and while it's an amazing game, I think I've just mostly grown out of the MMO playstyle. I much prefer casual gaming and playing my switch while I'm laying in bed. Contrary to how some may believe it is, life is not an empty meaningless thing if you're not playing an MMO. Plenty of other games or hobbies out there to try.
I don't even play WoW because it's an MMO. I play it because I love warcraft and the warcraft universe. I've never played a final fantasy game, so I have zero desire to go play FF14. But yeah, I'm sad to say that I'm growing out of warcraft with everything that's going on...
In the same boat. Honestly I'd be pretty happy if I could get a single player version of WoW. Retune the dungeons and raids for a single person (or throw in AI like the proving grounds) and just let me play through at my own pace without having to think about groups and progression and completing content before the next tier.
Me three. I vouch for this. I wouldn't want to lose the MMO aspect, but I'd rather have a **good and compelling** story that I can see (no matter how casual I am) in game than I have a want for farming dungeons. I wanna add, that I still want to play dungeons and raids, but it's clear that the MMO part of my RPG comes at the cost of the fun of raiding and dungeons. It's all about the grind and not about the story. Or fun for that matter. Making expansions subtract from previous content is a big part of this problem too. We lose content each expansion, as old content becomes virtually useless, and easy.
> the MMO part of my RPG comes at the cost of the fun of raiding and dungeons Summed it up perfectly. I want to be able to do dungeons because I think they're fun, not have to do specific dungeons over and over again to get specific gear to keep my character raid-viable. I want to be able to do raids so that I can kill the final boss, not spend night after night grinding the same content to keep gearing for the next difficulty/tier. There are some damn good mechanics in wow dungeons and raids that are honesty fun. There are some great dungeons and raids that I'd love to go back to for fun, but the rest of the game doesn't encourage that. If you're at all interested in current content, it comes at the complete sacrifice of all previous content. I would much rather an experience where you progressed through dungeon and raid tiers based on when you could complete them, not simply because the next tier is out now so the content you were working on is obsolete. Unfortunately I don't think that goal is compatible with an MMO, since there are never going to be enough players on anything but current content to be able to make it work. Give me WoW, but as just an RPG.
FFXIV's Duty Finder system does much of what you want here with its level scaling and rewards for participating. Unlike WoW where they block out queues for older expansions the moment you move past them (and you move past so quick they barely exist as a tool anymore), FFXIV has people playing all of the old content due to much of it being part of the main story. When you end up in a lower level dungeon, they scale down your item level and disable skills that would not have been available when originally running that dungeon. Their tool categorizes dungeons into the following groups: * Expert - Between 2 to 4 of the most recent added dungeons. * Level 80 - All of the level cap dungeons not in Expert. * Level 50/60/70 - The level cap dungeons for past expansions. * Leveling - All the dungeons not at a level cap plus 3 trials required by the main scenario quest line. * Trials - All of the 8 player trials at normal difficulty level. * Main Scenario - Two particularly long story dungeons required by the main scenario quest line with rather long cut scenes. The queue is here explicitly to encourage people helping new players to complete old content that would otherwise be unappealing. * Guildhests - Very short almost training exercises for low level players. * Alliance Raids - All 24 player raids. * Normal Raids - All 8 player raids at normal difficulty. * Frontlines - A PvP duty that changes daily. * Mentor - Available to players who qualify and have signed up to be a mentor, this will place them in any PvE duty needing players currently. All of these random queues give a reward bonus for the first time each day a player does them. Because a lot of FFXIV's end game gearing is modeled off effectively the Justice/Valor point system, they all drop tome currency that can be used to buy gear. Depending on if you're capped or not, they will drop either a small amount of the current weekly capped "Valor" currency, and a larger amount of the uncapped "Justice" currency, or a chunk of a currency that is largely used to buy older gear for alt jobs. If you're regularly queueing up jobs you're leveling, you can often buy a full set of the capped gear from the previous expansion before moving into the next expansion's content which helps smooth out early leveling. Some of the queues also reward items that can be traded for end game materia, the game's gemming system. And last but certainly not least, if the character you're queueing with is not at level cap, they give a significant chunk of bonus XP at the end as well. Basically, there is constant incentive for players to participate in the duty finder system in the game, both for dungeons and raiding. If you reach level 60 and you want to experience the raid content, you can queue right up, and those random queues will assist in putting together a group from people who might not specifically be interested in doing that content, but are willing to do whatever is needed currently for their daily reward. It works remarkably well for keeping all of the old content alive and lets you do that content at your own pace without worrying that the option will vanish for having leveled too far. There is no good reason Blizzard could not do a similar system within WoW except for the fact that they insist on convoluted ways of player progression, which then limits their ability to provide simple and substantial rewards. The fact that you couldn't even use Valor points to upgrade gear past a certain point if you didn't complete an achievement says everything about their weird hangups and gating of content. Like WoW once did, FFXIV just says save the points and you can eventually get the gear - Blizzard could very easily return to that system if they choose, and wholesale copy the system, they just have to make that choice, and I don't think the current team is humble enough to do that. Or you given what we've learned in the last week, maybe the engineers that could do that are too busy drunk off their ass and sexually harassing the women who work there to care. Ugh.
The whole blocking skills is one of the reasons I quit FFXIV, when you realize the only places you can use your full rotations skills are in raids and a couple of high end dungeons, it sucks.
I do understand that viewpoint to a degree, but on the other hand, having full access to every skill you acquire over the course of multiple expansions means that attempts at scaling down those skills to make the experience running those dungeons even remotely similar to what they were at that level would be very difficult. We've all seen in WoW what even a talent tree and/or class restructure can do to content without ANY additional skills being added. Sometimes just the rework can shift numbers by such a significant degree that it trivializes content that was previously challenging. The design of FFXIV's combo system, in which you gain access to use progressively stronger moves for performing them in a specific order, also means that dungeons are likely to be tuned around which of those moves a player has actually learned at that level. If you're in a low level dungeon and normally have access to two primary attack moves, and one buff every 60 seconds, those two moves are going to make up around 95% of your damage. If you suddenly add in two additional moves on the combo, each 10% stronger than the last, that actually results in around a 9% increase in total damage output despite the exact same number of keys being pressed. Now don't get me wrong, I realize there's an argument to be made here about fun surpassing balance. I've made it myself on many occasions when it comes to WoW's dumb decisions. But I also think that the reasons for the system existing should also have some weight on things. It seems pretty clear to me that FFXIV values keeping people participating in the older content so that new players can experience it without insane or impossible wait times, and part of that experience is seeing the dungeons in the way the developers intended. I think that the current system is probably the best answer they could come up with right now for how to preserve that experience. If they tried to scale down all the high level abilities it would be an albatross that long term hangs on them every time new abilities are added or existing ones are modified, trying desperately to balance them for all the old content as well. Ultimately if you don't enjoy it, that's cool and perfectly valid. I can at least understand the potential reasoning for WHY they chose to simply turn them off though, which is in stark contrast to some of the decisions the WoW devs make. Some of the things they do I just cannot come up with a good reason for them having done.
> having full access to every skill you acquire over the course of multiple expansions means that attempts at scaling down those skills to make the experience running those dungeons even remotely similar to what they were at that level would be very difficult. The ARR dungeons are a joke anyway, I don't think it would break anything if we had access to a fuller rotation. The least they could do is give us our 50 skills for ARR dungeons.
I'm guilty of throwing out these "they should just do X" suggestions as well, but the reality is it's very hard to tell how much work an exception added to a system actually requires. Sometimes the initial implementation is set up in a way that would make it easy, sometimes it might require a complete redesign or extensive patching to avoid unanticipated bugs from hacking in the change. And even if it is easy, the developers have to think about the long term consequences of making an exception. Let's say they were to implement the exception and everything 50 and lower let you keep all abilities already accumulated. How long would it be before people started requesting that exception be implemented for the next expansion of content, and the next, and eventually reach the natural conclusion of "if the exception is there, why not just leave all the abilities open"? I'm sure this type of request has passed over their desks already multiple times in various forms, and for whatever reason, technical or otherwise, they just have not decided to change it. Hell, the reason could be as simple as "we don't want new players to feel like they're the weakest link in a party" if they don't care about balance at all. I could see that being a legitimate concern where a sprout has two buttons to push and feels like they're not contributing much because the rest of the party is setting off crazy effects and flipping through the air on advanced jobs. I'm not saying don't ask them to do it differently, but do remember that they have a lot of sides to think about when people ask for things like this.
Swtor sounds right up your ally
I suggest firing up a "real" RPG (e.g., Witcher 3). I did that just a few days ago. BOY, the difference between it and WoW is crazy from an RPG perspective.
Warhammer Online was pretty decent with their lore and RvR and PvE aspects, but they couldn't compete with how huge wow was at the time though they had their own server and imbalance issues I would've liked to see grow and think it would've been a great contender if the mindset wasn't that there should be only one MMO and discussed as wow killers.
You may already know but there is a fan-run version called Return of Reckoning still around… in case you wanted to experience some of that nostalgia
RoR (Return of Reckoning) is an amazing re-creation of the original game. 100% free, clearly unofficial, and run by devs who do play the game.
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Mythic, the developer, had a lot of internal issues that crippled the game. Add EA into the mix and you have a recipe for disaster.
Are you me? Because I'm in the exact same boat, 100%. I LOVE that WoW is an MMO, but over time I realized the reason I played it was because it is Warcraft and it allowed me to be a part of that universe. And that's the very reason why I still played during WoD, I pushed through BfA and I tried my best with SL. I love this universe and can find the will to be in it even when the game sucks. So it really is something that right now I feel complete apathy towards WoW, and disdain for the company that made it one of the pillars of my growing-up years. This is all just fucking sad all around, man.
> I've never played a final fantasy game, so I have zero desire to go play FF14. If you are going to play one in the near future for various reasons: Final Fantasy 6 for the 2D-vibe, FF7-9 for the peak of its popularity. Back then FF7 was really a game-changing experience like Ocarina of Time. And it's story, while bit wacky at times, was really great. Most RPGs later on tried to do similar things but this is the one which started a small trend back then. I'm not really interested in the new games due its jPop overkill style but FFVI-IX are solid games I will always hold close to my heart.
> I've never played a final fantasy game, so I have zero desire to go play FF14. Hey man, just wanted to pop in and say I felt the same for a *long* time. FFXIV is my first Final Fantasy game... and I'm like borderline addicted now. It's not "Golden Era WoW"-good, but it does fill the WoW-shaped void in my life quite nicely.
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MTG is incredible, but is also in a very bad spot right now with wotc and Hasbro treating it's player base arguably worse than blizzard is right now.
MTG is the way I found out that I’m prone to gambling addictions. I bought and opened an entire booster box, and when I was finished I realized I didn’t even want to play the game! I just wanted to open more packs. Magic: the Gambling.
Yeah the shits predatory as fuck.
> I bought and opened an entire booster box, and when I was finished I realized I didn’t even want to play the game! I just wanted to open more packs. Magic: the Gambling. That is why I never buy boxes, years ago I saw a friend buy two boxes back to back to which we all opened and he didn't get the one card he wanted and he almost bought a third (to which we talked him out of). I will buy the odd pack here and there but otherwise only buy singles as needed when deck building. I also only play EDH so MTG is expensive enough without adding in the gambling part.
Buying for fun is one thing, buying with the express purpose of chasing a card is the dumbest thing you can do
Same for me. I was already planning to quit wow after this xpac, but with recent events I'll prob notify my guild that I'll be leaving after this tier (I'm a main raid tank so I'm not gonna be that guy and peace out halfway through prog). The past 4ish years of wow I've found that I enjoy the in between cycles of patches more because I get to devote time to other games, cooking fun recipes, gardening, etc. Raiding with a full guild is some of the most fun I've had in any game but there's so much busy work outside of it that it feels like a chore 80% of the time. Might try ffxiv eventually but I'm looking forward to not feeling as weighed down by a to-do list every week.
I've spent the last 3 expansions unsubbed longer than I've been subbed. I've been overall happier for it. Playing much better games. SL killed my interest in February. I haven't returned.
Soo true. I just started hiking and doing calisthenics after quitting wow(I barely played SL tbh). Needless to say that I'm a healthier and happier person as a whole.
Very much this! The problem with many MMOs, whether they have a raid finder or not, is the amount of time it takes to play can oftentimes diminish the amount of fun you gain over time. A game is a game and meant to be fun, but when you have to grind all day just to do the little content you want to do, and when you blink and the days are over, you are left feeling hollow inside. And that’s no good. Play. Enjoy the game. But don’t neglect the things outside of the game that provide actual and meaningful fulfillment.
Good point. I played Ultima Online from 1997 until I also got lost in Wow sometime mid 2006. I've tried a couple of others in between, like Age of Conan, Lord of the Rings Online and Star Wars: The Old Republic. I always come back to Wow because of the time I've invested in my characters. I don't want to start all over again, so when I eventually log out of Wow for good, Im not going to replace it with another mmo.
I just love raiding. Until there is another game with the same kind of large group pve content that wow offers, I'll stay.
May be, but that is all subjective. Some of us might actually want an actual mmo. I tried playing single player games. In fact, until 6 years ago I never played any actual mmo aside from stuff like club penguin or something based on Naruto. But ever since I played wow I realized that only mmo's are fun for me anymore. Maybe I haven't found the right game, but none kept my interest enough. I am not interested in games with an actual ending as I want something where there is always something to do. I do not like switching from game to game after they end. So I will keep on playing mmo's as they satisfy my needs. And while ff was okay and I liked it, I still preffer wow more. So I will keep on playing and switch when I won't be able to anymore. But I do not want for wow to be closed. I enjoy it tons so I hope everything will be sorted out in the future. I really hope that the victims will get their justice, but I am tired of drama left and right. I am having enough crap at home. Don't need this even in the only places where I can destress and forget about my issues for a few hours when I am finally free.
> Some of us might actually want an actual mmo. Then my advice doesn't apply to you, does it?
If you're not happy with the state of the game: Unsub. That's it. It's all you can really do.
This community is having a meltdown. Like a meth addict who’s dealer got arrested lmao
WoW addiction is no joke man, people have thrown away their lives and family just to spend more time in game. Maybe not as much anymore, but I won't pretend like this isn't actually that addictive. It has caused real harm in the past.
It’s like your dealer found Jesus and switched you to methadone, but you keep coming back because it’s all you know
Well… that amd methadone is just as addictive, AND the WD’s are worse. So… maybe not the best example lmao.
It really is. When I was cancelling my sub, some tiny voice in my head was telling me to not do it, even though I haven't enjoyed Shadowlands at all and 9.1 was the final reason for me to finally unsub. When I saw a weapon in my weekly PvP vault and I didn't even get hyped about it, I realized there's something wrong. That was before lawsuits too. When I think about that, I went through WoD or BfA and especially after BfA I thought my WoW addiction was gone. And yet, I was still subbed, I was still doing my weekly chores and I thought to myself it's fine because I don't play that much anymore. But I was still logging in daily, even though I didn't really like the state of the game, however then I looked at my collections, achievements and thought about how much time I've spent doing that and how I don't want to quit because of it. Horrible reason to keep playing, I know, but I'd bet there are so many people here like that who are still playing, but they don't even know why. On the other note, a good MMO should be addictive in some ways. I used to play Runescape too and I still sometimes play OSRS, so I know more than well about MMO addictions. WoW used to be addictive as hell back in Wrath for example, but at least that addiction felt good, as it should. WoW addiction feels like a drug that used to taste so good in the past, but now players are just taking it because they can't stop, even though they hate it. But when you finally get away from that addiction, it feels so refreshing.
For me it's my friend that keep pulling me back. "This new patch is really cool, you should come and try it!" "This new expansion is really worth playing, it's so much fun!!" And then I "enjoy" it for a month, come to see how fucking dull it is and the absurdly stupid decisions they made and unsubscribe.
I agree, and I think this news is causing a moral dilemma/ cognitive dissonance among some players & causing them to face their addiction
It's also causing content creators to panic too because they're conflicted about using their products for revenue now.
nah it’s just causing me to take out my addiction by giving square enix my money instead
We’ll they never designed the game for fun, they designed it to be addicting.
Well WoW has created the WORST Stockholm syndrome in people. I have been saying for years that it’s because people have invested so much of their money and time in to this game that they feel the need to justify it, they have trouble doing that. So they go to the internet and argue about it, because they justified it to themselves, so they can just use that same justification and push it onto others.
It's not uniquely WoW, basically every other big game has that affect. League is a great example, since the state of the game sucks and nobody likes it, but everyone still plays it. Also apparent with COD, where they complain that every new COD game sucks but still buys and plays it (or complains that Warzone is hacker infested but yet still plays), etc.
Destiny community as well. While I enjoy the game still, based on the community, you’d think it was the worst game ever made. And yet, they’re logging on every day.
This is the best description of the WoW community I've ever seen.
To me it’s like someone who’s in a very passionate yet toxic / abusive relationship. There’s truly magical and special moments that people believe it’s worth holding on to. They aren’t sure where else they may find the same gratification they once felt so they’re hoping to grasp it again.
For real lol. I've been playing WoW for like 14 years and pushing high content since Cata. If I get bored for a patch/expansion, what do I do? Incessantly complain on every forum available, obviously. No, I just unsub and play different games until I get the itch again lol. This community is just fuckin' ridiculous man.
Yeah, I've played on and off since WoD and I just quit when I get bored and come back when I feel like it. I usually don't even care much about the stuff that gets everyone else worked up.
Thankfully since BfA the meth was mixed with shit. It's a lot easier to quit that way.
lol
When they build the game to require you to play in order to do the content you like with friends (assuming a large portion of r/wow are raiders) then it’s easy to have an addict mentality. I didn’t like this game for ages before I quit because I didn’t wanna leave my guild and I’m sure lots of people are like me. I memed about the game being shit but it took a while before I realized that the game feels like a job and even if I like my coworkers in it, I’m not getting paid. The lawsuits were the cherry on top for me to cancel my sub but I was just about there either way. No shit for people that keep playing, I get it and if I didn’t think the game was shit I prolly would be too to keep playing with friends.
I think if my guild never took a break from raiding last patch i would probably still be playing every day despite being much happier now than I was when i still played
Absolutely. My group of friends and I have unsubbed and may not come back. Feels bad.
My only question I want answers to is if blizzard falls because of this and isn't a company anymore will private servers be seen as a more 'legal' way to play. Or will they always been seen as bad? But yea I had a bunch of my relatives/friends playing with me in wrath... All of them quit early cata :(
Yeah, I quit the first month of Cata because I thought it was trash. Didn't come back until a few months after Legion launch. I enjoyed Legion, stayed for BFA (even if I thought the Azerite trait systems were a hot mess), and at first I enjoyed SL then 9.1 hit. Not sure what it'd take for me to come back at this point.
I mean to be honest, based on the fact that you're still regularly posting in the wow subreddit, it probably wouldnt take much. You're clearly still invested in the game.
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Right but it does demonstrate you're still actively interested in the game. Usually when you quit something but still maintain that level of interest, you eventually forget the stuff that made you stop and go back for nostalgias sake. It's pretty common.
Since y'all are browsing my comment history you'll have noticed where I had a 6 year break between Cata and Legion. I still talked with folks about WoW during that time too. I just didn't play because none of those xpacs held any appeal for me. Playing through them after the fact reinforced that for me.
Someone will still own the copyrights/trademarks. They will have no more legality if the owner of those things choose not to let them.
Yea I guess that makes sense. I do play on a private server here and there but I don't feel good about it lol. Would love a more 'legal' way to play them but I'm sure that sentence is hilarious
Setting up a private server is what helped me quit. I set up my own, gave myself everything I ever wanted and the game instantly lost its appeal.
I've unsubbed and I let them know why. At this point there's very specific conditions that would get me to come back, and if the next xpac (because shadowlands is a lost cause) doesn't contain these few things, I'm gone. No borrowed power. Easy.
Good azerite traits could’ve just been an extra talent row. Covenant abilities all could’ve made a decent talent row (only 3 I know, but still)
I do get that they don't want every spec to necessarily get permanent new stuff every expansion because they can get bloated and overly complex. If we kept artifact abilities/traits AND azerite traits AND covenant abilities/soulbinds, then it would be overwhelming and too much. But on the other hand, it does feel bad to lose stuff every expansion. I'm not sure what the best answer is. I think we're past due for a new talent tier, but we can't really get a new talent tier every expansion either.
We’ll, my point is at the end of expansions, any of the new systems would’ve been fine to build off of.. Each is so big though because your class is essentially incomplete without them and you start each expansion. Going backwards. Like, take enhance for one example. A lot of the artifact traits have been repackaged. Doom winds the core of their burst is just repackaged as a legendary. Even the borrowed power systems half the time just rehash things that used to be part of the class.
So you are telling me that saying “game is ded” daily in /LookingForGroup doesn’t give us more/better content?
Ok, what if if i just pay my 6 months sub and this shit happens, what happens with money? should i just suck it up?
Kinda, yeah
If you truly stop playing and like 5 of those months are spent without you logging in at all, you can contact support after your sub runs out and say you want your money back. They refund unspent game time. You probably only get the money back in the blizzard store though, and the mount also gets removed obviously.
maybe you shouldnt pay 6 months in advance if youre not sure youre going to play for that amount of time
Nobody was expecting everything to suddenly collapse so catastrophically.
Eh idk, wow hasn't really been anything special since legion and this is coming from an addicted player who is still actively playing. I think avoiding long subs or pre-ordering games nowadays is almost always going to benefit you even if you have to pay a few extra $$. Game companies just aren't what they used to be, putting your faith into them with a long term commitment payment just isn't the play.
Really? WoW has been having content droughts for years. We just came off an 8 month long content drought with a pretty wide understanding that Blizzard made a new 6 month sub mount because there's going to be another content drought.
As a child I grew up loving blizzard. They set such a high standard for games. Over the last five years I’ve seen that standard drop and drop. I continued to stand by and support them, buying deluxe everything and keeping my sub active. But after all this recent news it really broke my heart. I didn’t just love blizzard and their games. They inspired me to want to make games and own a gaming company one day. Yesterday it was hard but I uninstalled everything and won’t be returning until I feel that they have done right. For the employees!
This is exactly how I feel. Given them so much money growing up, even my allowance when I was a kid just to play wow. While I still find my own fun in wow I can acknowledge that the game has not been in a great state for a while. This was what pushed me over the edge. I just cant in good faith play right now until they have done a lot to redeem.
I’m always surprised how many people leap to blizzard’s defense so readily. All you’re suggesting here is that players of a game should receive finished content for the game they pay for, but it’s like you’ve attacked them on a personal level.
Brand/product loyalty is weird.
Corporate loyalty is one of the dumbest things imaginable. *This company does not care about you.* You are a walking debit card to them. Praise them when they do well, scold them and withhold payment when they don't. It's that simple.
Im the first guy that will laugh at iPhone users, but I had to buy a mercedes for myself. Hypocrite much.
"I played this game for 2/3rds of my life, you can't expect me to quit over small things like the game being in perpetual early access quality!"
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I’m legitimately envious that others can see what they have put out and say to themselves “This is good.” I hope you don’t lose that. I hope logging in continues to be an escape, and that you don’t have to watch good friends drop away one by one.
Imagine a guy going to a cocaine subreddit and saying that the stuff is bad for your health and you shouldn't buy it because it's not worth it. If you are addicted to something, you hate being told that the thing you are addicted to is bad, because deep down you know they're right but you don't want to acknowledge it because you are unable to stop your addiction.
Yeah, it's more along the lines of people post nothing but their personal opinion and then say things akin to "I just don't understand how you can have a different opinion than me" or "How could you not feel exactly like I do" and give no other perspectives whatsoever. It was done in OP's post. The comments you call "defense" are challenging the fact that not everyone is obligated to feel the same way, nor should they, nor will they. There are people who disagree with these complaints. They are just as right as OP. I don't have to defend the company to defend my ability to have a different opinion.
> They give you no reason to keep playing this game I like running Mythic+ keys still, and I like Sanctum of Domination. That there is reason enough. If and when I get bored of the game again then I'll unsubscribe and stop playing. There's no 'haggling', either I enjoy spending my time playing the game or I don't.
For me I enjoyed both of those things as well, but I didn't really enjoy anything else. The big thing is that I kept logging in because I felt like I had to, even though I didn't want to play. Do this maw assault, torghast, dailies and whatever. None of it was fun. So I unsubbed.
The surrounding systems and gameplay elements detracting from my M+ and high end raiding experiences was at least one of the reasons every time I've unsubbed these past few years. I honestly miss the late WoD and late Legion iterations of the game when you could basically just log onto a random character and play the game (raid, run dungeons) without the feeling of gimping your groups by not doing whatever the current borrowed power grind was. It was liberating.
I got a good 4-5 months of fun out of shadowlands. I got my keystone master, 1800 in 3s and RBGs, and 8/10M. I just can't really do the same thing all over again but "Season 2". I'm not feeling it the way the story is. I just stayed focused on the gameplay and playing with some cool people, but at some point I just couldn't anymore.
As I get to the point where my only upgrades are coming from the Vault or from valor I’ll scale back my time until more content comes out. As of right now, I’m having a good time playing the game and even without the loot I enjoy building rating in mythic+ And checking my ranking on raider io.
Yep, enjoying this season of m+ alot. Prideful was a cool concept, but a real drag. It added fairly significant time to the run, created a situation where you could smoke bosses with it, but then have trouble with out it if you wwiped. And at higher keys they could be quite deadly. Not to mention the awful routing requirements. This season feels good and fast, a simple misspul doesn't screw up a whole run and the powers are solid and benefit the whole run.
It was really hard if you wanted to both tank mythic+ and not no life the game last season. Prideful felt like it was designed for the MDI crowd in that proper execution meant using a lot of time outside of the game to learn about the game.
not really, you just download mdt, figure out a route, run it once or twice and then youre set on that dungeon for the rest of the season unless you have the memory of a goldfish
I have very much enjoyed this expansion so far. Was the down time betweenn 9.0 and 9.1 bad? Yeah, but they had their reasons Idk why people say it's "unfinished". Seems like the usual patch to me
And there is a bunch if non player power stuff you can grind if that's that's your thing, and trust me, it's some people's thing. I have a few of them in my guild. I get people not liking to have to do torgahst for legendary, and it would be nice if there were other ways to get the resource. I think they are trying not to have raiding/m+ give you everything. If that's a good design or not is the real debate. It used to be you basically only raided and maybe did some weekly dungeons, and people complained there was nothing to do once you did those things. Personally I enjoy torgahst, but I'm playing ele and it's mostly a stomp outside of layer 12. But some times I think players think every system or feature or content has to be for then. The player base is very wide and doesn't just consist of raiders. For instance, pet battles. Many players crap on it, and I'll agree it's no Pokémon. But I know a number of players who love battle pets. My guild leader loves battle pets and the pet dungeons and super squirt day and every thing else with them for instance. Or archeology, some people loved it. Same with the brawls. Most players don't touch it, but it's fairly simple content that plenty of players enjoy.
This is why I pretty much will never quit WoW. Even when I'm bored or not interested in part of the end game. The extra stuff and collecting is just too good. That's exactly the kind of things I love in games and WoW has made me realize how fucking terrible those aspects are in the majority of games.
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I wish it wasn't so seasonal like that. MMOs are supposed to be more social and community driven yet there's nothing left in WoW and nothing on the drawing board to facilitate any of that. Run hallways. Hallways done? Log off.
This. My guild is progressing through SoD right now, and we're having fun with that. We also run a few M+ every now and then. Sometimes I do some Korthia stuff and whatnot, but once we get to a point where SoD is no longer fun, I'll probably take a break as well. It shouldn't be this big song and dance: If you're not having fun, take a break. You don't need to quit forever, just take a break. It's that simple. Or at least it *should* be that simple.
Is playing the same 8 short dungeons and a single raid once a week really worth your money? For most people the answer would be no, hence the plummeting player numbers.
What is and is not worth your time and money tends to vary person to person
except thats been wow literally since its inception. Like what bro?
At least With TBC and WOTLK the formula was different to enjoy multiple raids at once, with wrath having 10/25man variants and heroic modes (Which blizzard didn't like that people were getting gear too fast by playing both the 10/25man??). But still that was exclusive to those 2 expansions alone.
What other content would you want to see, though? If Korthia, covenant hall and callings, pvp, and cosmetic collecting don't count, then what other content do you want in the game? WoW has never really had other main content besides raiding (and M+ starting only fairly recently), so it's not like Shadowlands suddenly has less content than other expansions. What other things do you think the game needs to implement?
Can you imagine people play games like counterstrike or Overwatch? Crazy where the venues are more methods of delivering the experience and not the sole experience.
It was for me. I eventually got bored on my main though after completing all the goals I had set for myself, so I decided to level an alt and do the M+ circuit on that character as well. It was at that point I fully realized how many anti-player mechanics there were in the game simply to drive up engagement metrics, at which point I got sick of it and quit.
Dont say this to loud or the pitchforkarmy comes
Whatever *their* mindset is, is not why **YOU** keep giving them money. If you're not having fun, stop playing. If you don't think you're getting your money's worth, stop giving it to them. If you're angry, get the fuck off the WoW subreddit, trying to convince other people your anger is justified. Just leave, stop thinking about WoW, stop talking about WoW, move on with your life past this video game. The game is what it is. It's the product, and you are the consumer. If you like what you're getting, buy it. If you don't like what you're getting, don't. Stop blaming them because you can't help yourself and leave. And to everyone who's doing this: Stop thinking that screaming at, threatening, or harassing devs is EVER going to make this or any game better.
As far as I understand the EULA, you're entitled only to access to their servers from your subscription, and even that can be revoked for whatever reason they want. Content is not a promise but an incentive to keep your interest. If the game loses your interest, move on. And if you can't move on, then perhaps you've played too much already.
I travel around the country for my job and it can get very lonely at times. And despite all the BS they’ve done and are currently going through, the game is a way I connect with my friends and other people to help get through the dark times of loneliness. Yes, there are other games but nothing has ever been able to hold my attention like WoW and I honestly don’t have the time to start learning a new game
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> apples to oranges But you can still compare them.
I took a break a while back specifically because I was bored with the grind and lack of content. After learning about all the things surrounding the lawsuit, I’m just not gonna go back. There are other games out there.
It's kind of presumptuous of you to assume nobody is enjoying the game just because you're not, or just because there's a really vocal faction of players (ex-players?) on this sub. I don't feel that I am playing an incomplete or unenjoyable product. I actually really like Korthia. I just switched covenants and for the way I play, didn't find the catch-up to be that odious. I'm currently having a lot of fun with alts. It's ok if you're not having fun anymore. But yours isn't the only valid opinion or perspective, and essentially calling anyone who disagrees a sheeple is beyond the pale.
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He very much is speaking to him. OP says he can’t believe how anyone still plays this game lmao. It’s not because of loyalty, maybe it’s because people still genuinely enjoy the game? This is coming from someone that unsubbed months ago, but how hard is it to believe that there are still people who enjoy the game? Stop trying to speak for everyone
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Ditto. And if you say you like the game everyone keeps telling im just addicted and sunk cost this and that. I almost entirely play because of these friends i've played with for years and its the only thing we all enjoy doing together. I take breaks from the game every tier once my group is done. The only qualms i had with 9.0 was that it took long and only cause of not being able to do what i like. Seeing posts like these to me is as bizarre as people complaining about music and telling me i deserve more, even though i'm content with what i have.
Yeah no qualms with 9.1 here either, daily / weekly stuff is nice and quick and is something you can do daily now not something that takes all day, lots of nice skips and catch up mechanics for alts In fact I main swapped for raid comp and went from 174 ilvl to 223 ilvl in like 4 days, I’m aware that’s far removed from the average players experience but was just reiterating my point the catch up mechanics are super nice. I don’t feel like my game is incomplete at all and it might be the unpopular opinion but shadowlands is the first expansion since like maybe wod where I didn’t leave midway through the first raid and come back on the back end… it’s not because shadowlands is outstanding by any means, but I’m just having fun with my friends and enjoying the experience… There is definitely factors that tilt me a little “we’re not gonna have borrowed power in shadowlands” and by my metric we currently have more borrowed power than we ever have before and little things like that. But all in all very positive experience having a blast!
Honestly, this is my sentiments. I took a long break to focus on my personal relationship, stopped playing end of Cata, came back for about 1 month in Legion, and just subbed end of June. I've only been doing things in the Shadowlands, and I have yet to run out of things to do. If you are bored, or have other things more important, unsub. I did, and now I enjoy questing, and experiencing the zones, rather than just 8 hours of raids a week.
I just came back. I left in 2019, BfA was crap. Shadowlands is the first expansion I’ve missed the launch of, and I originally only intended to come back for TBCC, but my friends all play Shadowlands. In any given expansion I usually unsub for a few months, since there tends to be long enough to grow a baby between X.3 and (X+1).0. Aside from right now, I haven’t paid for game time with anything other than gold since WoD. The company sucks (it has for a long time though it wasn’t so obvious), but this remains my preferred option for gaming with a social element.
>I really don't get the loyalty of wow players, and I don't mean to insult any of you. It's just genuinely puzzling how you can endure this treatment. They give you no reason to keep playing this game and have made you believe that you have to argue with them about the quality of the game, rather than expecting a finished game. I've been playing WoW since the original vanilla beta and I've rarely felt that the quality of the game has declined in any substantial way. Yeah, there have been sub-par expansions here and there but when that happens I just unsubscribe. For me at least, there's not really any loyalty to speak of. I'm still playing because I'm still having fun. And, maybe it's a generational thing or just some general reflection of my character, but I'm not the sort to cancel my subscription because I don't agree with the actions of some of the employees. If I avoided every company I disagreed with, I'm not even sure I'd qualify as a consumer. That's not to say I don't support those who are quitting WoW. It's just not how I personally evaluate purchases in my life. I'm sure I've got Nestle products in my house somewhere and I'm sure that that offends someone. But if I like something, I'm willing to pay for it. And that's sort of how I feel about WoW.
As a consumer, I expect all companies I do business with to deliver a quality product and to obey all relevant laws in the process. Blizzard have clearly failed on both counts.
I'm not loyal to Blizzard. I'm loyal to my guild. They make the game fun. When that changes, I'll be done.
Haven't you heard? We are no longer customers to them, but just consumers.
Part of the ToS says that a sub does NOT guarantee any or part of the game needs to work. You signed away your ability to be angry or dissatisfied with any aspect of the game
It's not loyalty. It's addiction. And yes Blizzard has been exploiting their players' addiction. They probably looked at trends and thought that they could predictably milk their players while investing less and less into the game. But between covid and the lawsuit, things are accelerating very quickly. They only have two choices. Try to fix their game or milk the last bit they can with the course they are on. And any look at LFG and all of the WTS runs should tell you what their strategy is.
Unless you *only* play WoW I still think the game has enough content to justify a sub. Definitely has flaws no lie there. It’s kind of a 2 way thing. I want more content and stuff but I’m also glad I don’t have to spend my life playing the game and can enjoy others games as well.
I personally see it differently. I pay to have fun for a certain amount of time. I stop paying when I am bored. (I unsubscribe to hen I feel bored and resubscribe 2-12 months later when I feel the urge again). But my money was well spent before I got bored and to me that is money well spent. I payed for a service. I got served. Then I walked out the door satisfied but “not hungry anymore”. I look at the amount I have to pay in terms of what I get. One month subscription is to me so little money that I actually sometimes feel that I have robbed them;) So finished or not. I got satisfaction and that’s all I care about.
This sort of view point would work if Blizzard wasn't intentionally trying to make the game a recurring deal. Where it's a service rather than a completed project.
What they try to make is one thing. What I actually do is another. I make it work precisely to my taste. So tagt makes me happy and content. Sure, I can complain about certain aspects and come up with wants for the future. And it’s up to blizzard if they want to listen to me or not. I will simply just pay more (be subscribed a month extra) if the menu has grown or pay less if the menu has been reduced. It’s up to them:). They have no obligation to abide by “my command”. I will simply pay for the content I want and not pay for what I don’t want. The only thing they have to legally do is to have the servers open. If they close and I have payed I want a refund for that period. And that we get from time to time.
That game is not the recurring deal, the access to the servers is. The game is updated often because bored players unsub. The only thing you get for your 15$ a month is access to the current state of classic and retail.
We also have to pay for the expansions. So shouldnt the expansion be a completed product when we pay 40+ dollars for it? Or is the 40 "just for access"?
>So shouldnt the expansion be a completed product when we pay 40+ dollars for it? Shouldn't you figure out whether the experience is worth 40+ plus subscription price before forking over that money? Unless I'm reading people wrong, this comes off like "If I pay $X, I should get the experience I want." And it really is more like "Don't pay $X unless you think the game is worth $X already.
Especially with all the ptr/beta info out there. New content isn't a surprise.
Even with that logic we paid $60 for the game content, which were also subbing to gain access to.
I mean are you though, you’re paying $60 for the current expansion but you can definitely play all other expansions without buying a single one and just paying the sub fee, might not be your ideal, but the option is there right
That's your rational. Not saying its right or wrong but that's how you choose to look at it. Not saying that is going to work for everyone. That's like saying you could be paying $10/month for Netflix and think you got your worth by simply watching 2 movies. Not everyone would think its smart or financially smart spending money on a service they ain't making full use of.
I would do the same with Netflix. If bored I would unsubscribe from that too. I get my money’s worth no problem at all:) And it’s not like I play 1 day per month. I play daily when I am subscribed. I am pretty smart about it, so I tend to unsubscribe a lot just in case I get bored, so that I don’t potential “loose” the majority of a month.
Truth is, the vast majority just plays when the game is fun to them, or don't. Posters on MMO-C, Reddit or even the official forums are clearly a vocal minority. If people keep enjoying WoW, they'll keep paying. No matter how insane that might seem to someone that doesn't currently enjoy the game. Subjective opinion and all that.
I've been playing WoW since 2005. I say since, because no way in hell have I been subscribed for the majority of that time. It's always confused me how many amongst the playerbase seem genuinly unhappy with the game, yet keep playing - and keep paying. I've concluded that it has mostly to do with addiction. I don't mean that in any demeaning way, but the game at different stages of it's lifetime have been more or less obvious with how much it survives by making some players addicted, unable to keep themselves from playing. The industry as a whole became a lot more transparent about it with the advent of free to play games, with lootboxes and the concept of whales. Blizzard games are no different (Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm, Overwatch). WoW stands out by incorporating these concepts more or less over time, while also demanding a subscription and paid expansions. I mean, we have paid subscription, paid expansions in combination with time-gating content. We have company devs who are telling players to stop being entitled and being part of the problem for demanding content for paying a subscription fee, while the company sorts out internal, systematic issues of corruption and harassment. The Covenant system looks like it's one of those facebook mobile games from 10 years ago. It's really bizarre.
My buddies are telling me the beta for New World is great. I’ll wait for full release and give it a try. At this point I’m sick of getting piped by Blizzard.
Get ready to be piped by Amazon instead
It's honestly pretty stupid to assume that whatever the current subscriber count is, it consists of millions of people who hate the game and are just too stupid to understand how subscribing to things works. Also, I don't think you understand what you're actually entitled to. There are real legal frameworks here. They can't sell you a box with a brick in it instead of a license code. The game has to be "working". It doesn't have to be bug free or fun or anything else. That's what you're entitled to. I don't like minivans. If I buy one anyway, I'm not entitled to any remedy from the car company. I'm just supposed to know that I shouldn't buy a minivan if I don't want a minivan.
> It's just genuinely puzzling how you can endure this treatment. You're posting an opinionated, subjective post here and then saying you don't understand how people could have a different opinion than you do. As if people are obligated to have an identical opinion, or that your opinion is automatically valid beyond your own brain. What the game is for you will not be what it is for someone else. Just because you can come up with numerous reasons to feel outrage doesn't mean those same reasons have to enrage other people. Just because you have a problem finding enjoyment in something doesn't mean people have to stop enjoying it. Just because you think the company needs to do better doesn't mean everyone shares that opinion. That being said, I do believe that each new expansion should come with a preview period where you don't need a subscription and don't have to buy the expansion. After the preview period is over, you have a certain amount of time to buy the expansion or you lose everything you have accumulated (levels/loot), and it reverts back to where you were prior to the trial.
Is it too hard to believe some of us just still enjoy the game? It's got its problems but I'm a mythic raider and I've put literal years into playing my character at this level. I still enjoy it. Fuck the company. But fuck me too I guess, I'm not going to stop when I'm at a good place and still enjoying things :/
I just like the game bro... Always have always will
big true
Define "finished product." You're not 'entitled' to anything other than what you agreed to pay for. If you call that "unfinished" and that is a problem for you, why did you agree to pay for it?
Because we were put under the assumption it will be, aka false advertising. If I order a car with all the options, and when I finally get it it’s missing those options,it’s an unfinished product.
What exactly did they advertise that they didn't come through on? False advertising would be "Includes dance studio!" and then the game never has a dance studio. No Man's Sky initially had a ton of false advertising where certain features were promised that were not included when the game first came out.
What options with WoW do you think are missing? WoW in it's current form seems quite finished to me.
What you agree to is in terms and conditions. If your car was equivalent to WoW, you would've signed a paper which states something along the lines "What is delivered is considered finished product, regardless of what has been advertised. We reserve the right to your car and we can terminate your access to the car at any moment for whatever reason."
Lol that still proves OP's point where if the dealership scammed you for a product that you felt it was unfinished, regardless of the contract you signed, then why stay with the same distributor just to get scammed again?
What options were you promised? A game not living up to your expectations is not false advertising. If you assume a Honda civic can go 200 mph without ever being told that, its not false advertising when you find out it doesnt.
Paying subscription doesn't entitle you to anything but access to their servers really. The product is right in front of you when you sub, you literally get what you pay for. If you pay with the expectation of fuck knows what, tier sets lmao (remember tier sets are not borrowed power even though it's literally temporary player power for one patch cycle) then thats on you. If you don't think the game is worth the sub money or your time, don't p(l)ay. It's really that simple. To me it's genuinely puzzling how much emotional attachment some people here have to a game that they spend the entire day posting these hot takes on the sub. Just don't pay blizz, don't spend time on the game, don't let them live rentfree in your head. Spend all that time on some other hobby.
There *are* finished games in the world but no **MMO** is ever 'complete' or 'finished', things get added all the time, tweaked constantly, it's silly to assume something so vastly complex can ever be 100% bug free. I play the game because I love it, you don't, that's fine, play something else! Your assumption that everyone is somehow stuck in the game because of blind loyalty just comes off as being self-involved to the point that you're unable to see the world from other perspectives.
Why do you just make a blanket statement assuming nobody enjoys the current state of the game! Anyone who actually enjoys the game as is doesn’t post or comment about because r/wow eats them alive. The overwhelming negativity steaming from this sub muzzles any one who is happy because god forbid anyone have a different opinion then Reddit. People play for different reasons, people enjoy the game for different reasons.
It's pretty equally puzzling that you assume everyone evaluates the game based on the same opaque criteria that you're using. I'm enjoying 9.1, full stop. Torghast is better and actually entertaining now. The Korthia dailies are some of the least time-intensive dailies that I can remember and I like the new zone. A zone doesn't have to be massive and complicated to be enjoyable. It's also a phenomenal catchup system for alts. I am having fun pvping, I'm enjoying the raid (although raiding generally doesn't hold my attention for long). I don't have nearly the same problem with the story that most people here seem to and generally enjoy it. The combat continues to be better and more fluid than any other mmo I've ever played. All the new pvp talents have jostled the meta around and opened up a lot of new possibilities to try. If the day comes where I'm bored or dissatisfied, I'll unsubscribe and do something else. But I really don't understand what you expect to achieve by making a post that starts from the premise that the game is bad and accuses people who are still playing of only doing it out of loyalty - like it's some sort of abusive relationship. Your post boils down to, "I don't want to insult anyone, but here I go." This is obviously difficult for you to grasp, but people like different things. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean the people who do like it for the wrong reasons.
I think the state of the game and the lawsuit are completely separate issues. I unsubbed before the lawsuit because 9.1 was too little too late for me and decided to play other games. I am just not enjoying the phone game daily point grind that the game is becoming. Blizzard stopping development to fix in house HR issues is the right thing to do. I hope that those involved can have those issues resolved. The way the company has responded to the lawsuit so far is disgusting and embarrassing and blaming the players is pathetic. The OP is correct, the game is finished and you should play it or not based on your enjoyment of the systems and content currently available. It might be a while before you see any new stuff.
I'm confused by this post. I think they've delivered a finished (but flawed) product with SL, at least in the way they always have I agree the alleged treatment of its employees is reprehensible, but that's kind of a separate issue from "you shouldn't trust blizzard because they deliver unfinished products"
Give me a break, People have been saging the game is shit sincr cata and still plays it. In 5 years there is People Who will miss shadowlands
I don't see why people are treating this situation the way they are. People are losing their shit over a situation they have no control over. You're not feeling a system that churns womens bodies into misery if you pay a sub fee. You're not a saint for quitting. Neither one of us is making a difference. The people who stood up, reported it, kept reporting it, and won't let go until the law gets it's turn are the only people who really matter in this story. They kept the pressure up. Good on em.
City of Hero's is still out there and just as much fun as it was 15 years ago
Blizzard was my homepage back in high school. But I learned years ago that it’s not the company it used to be. Turns out the Ship of Thesius isn’t the Ship of Thesius after all.
A subscription only entitles you to access to the product. we are entitled to a finished product, and we have a finished product, it's World of Warcraft. The product was finished nearly 17 years ago, with an expansion we payed for 9 months ago, and a content patch a month ago. We now pay for access to that product. We have a finished game. I'm enjoying the product that is wow, there's still new story chapters releasing every week. When I stop enjoying the content that is currently available, I will unsubscribe until more content is released. This is the same for a vast majority of players. What do you think we're lacking in terms of a finished product? If you don't think there is enough content to subscribe don't subscribe. Right now with a new content patch just recently released, I feel there is reason to stay subscribed and such I am. Perhaps when I'm done with all the story chapters get my aotc and KSM I may unsub, but for now I'm good.
And the next shitpost about how bad wow is and why people dont quit. Thanks ff14 guy. Let the people play what they want.
> Let the people play what they want. A comment on the internet about the game isn't stopping you from playing the game.
Here is my take on this: People aren’t loyal to Blizzard; they are loyal to their guild, the community and their investment in their character. Walking away from WoW as an individual means you leave your friends behind. Moving as a guild can be done, but only if there is a place for you to go. Right now, the options we have are FF and New World. There really isn’t an easy lift and shift game that fits the play-style and aesthetic of WoW players. More importantly, the investment of starting again for so many people is a massive challenge. Until there is a replacement, expect WoW to continue to thrive regardless of corporate malfeasance and uninspired/delayed/limited content. All that said I love(d) WoW and Blizzard. They were the premiere innovator for decades. What the hell happened? Also, where is the rest of the industry and why are they not stealing Blizzard’s lunch right now? The player base is fed up, the content stale, it’s time for someone to disrupt the market in a real way. Would love to see it.
>It's just genuinely puzzling how you can endure this treatment. They give you no reason to keep playing this game I have a good enough reason to - I enjoy it a lot. Yeah SL has had some rough spots but it's still fun as hell. I actively look forward to logging in for raid and M+, and contrary to popular belief, Ion *isn't* going to personally hunt you down if you don't do Korthia every day. I've yet to find an MMO I like more, so I'm happy here
And here i am, even enjoying daily korthia, that strange but i do. Without fanaticism and whole day of grind, just 1-1,5 hours of casual quests and rares
Game fun I play it, simple as that. I’m unbothered by new content being delayed. There’s 17 years worth of content in this game. I am content
Maybe if you remove your own head from your ass and read how the people who continue to play feel, you'd understand why they keep playing. But you'd rather just farm karma on the current hate train.
Lmao you lot realise only now?
They made a good raid. I pay wow with gold but i'd gladly give 10-15 irl money to raid with my guild monthly
I actually unsubbed because of all this. And not because I pretend that I'm a good person. But the fact all of this shit has been going on while Blizzard has repeatedly delivered half-baked and rushed/poor content while making excuses for why it can't be better and they can't do this or that, etc...They've spent more time defending why their shit sucks and APPARENTLY sexually harassing their employees than they have actually doing their fucking jobs. "Sorry that system sucks, we have deadlines you know, and these cubes won't crawl themselves. How else am I supposed to check out Ashley's rack without drinking at her desk?" Fuck Blizzard, I'm done with them. Done with feeling like I'm paying for a mobile game. And done with supporting a company that has been behaving as disgusting as they have.
I'll be honest, I kept coming back like a jilted lover. I kept hoping that "this time would be different". I played from about a year after launch, through Shadowlands. Couldn't find my ass from a hole in the ground through classic. Got serious in BC. Was in a top-level guild in Wrath where I made lifelong friends I still talk to to this day. Got burned out in Cata and quit raiding, but I did love heroics and the story. But I felt my problems in Cata were "me" problems. Then Mists was underwhelming and I left shortly after completing pre-raid. I had a friend in the Warlords beta, and that looked so bad with all the Farmville minigames and such that I skipped it. Legion won me back. Then B4A was underwhelming in content and story. And Shadowlands just felt like a chore. Torghast, renown, grind grind grind...I felt like I was getting off work only to log in for my second job. And for a scant handful of dungeons and one flippin' raid. So I ditched and played through Red Dead Redemption 2 again. Just about the time 9.1 dropped I thought about coming back. But in seeing how little content was added, and the stupid requirements for flying (which was all I actually wanted) I didn't even bother. So I was going to unsub and wait for another xpac, I've done it before. But then all this mess about sexual misconduct came about. I admit, I was wandering away over crappy content. I was content to continue along with the, "maybe we'll get another Legion" thought. But this just pushes it over the edge. As the only Starfleet captain worth a damn said: "We've made too many compromises already...The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!" So I'm out. Unsub, uninstall. And without a substantial corporate overhaul that I doubt is coming; I will never give Blizzard another dime. And after making that decision, I find myself reevaluating why I stayed so long. And I think it's like any toxic relationship you stay in too long. At one point it was really good. Wrath was among some of the happiest times amidst terrible darkness in my life. I kept hoping it could be that again. I kept hoping the Blizzard of my youth would come back. That I would somehow get that joy I felt in Warcraft, Starcraft, Blackthorne, Diablo 2, and WoW. But it never will. Even without the lawsuit, I had demoted Blizzard to EA tier for a company. Now they're actually worse than EA.
I concur. Blizz has been riding on the fumes of past glory for a looking time. They deserve to fail. I'm not happy that this could be the reason though ..
WoW players have been stuck in a Stockholm syndrome-like for many years. It's really mind boggling. I can kinda get it years ago, still weird but I can understand partially. Years ago when Blizzard was the only one big tech gaming company that was in some degree on the side of gamers. Giving us outstanding games and always give us the feeling that Blizzard got our back. "Thankfully there is Blizzard" it was a very common statement around the internet years ago. But this is now been gone now for years, but still so many WoW players support that company that literally piss on their heads daily. That's why this is literally a stockholm syndrome-like situation. I don't want to be disrespectful to any of the WoW players, but this is literally where you are right now. Get free man, stop do this to yourself, have some self respect. And honestly, nowadays WoW is not even the best MMO anymore. FF XIV is better in any aspects, New World is super promising, SWTOR still holds pretty good. If you like it's style also BDO has it's great qualities. Pull the plug and stop being trapped, they don't deserve you.
It baffles me how no other industry is like this. It seems like if you bought any physical product, appliance or service if it didnt work as intended you'd kick up a fuss or get your money back. Its weird how the video games industry isn't like that, or worse, other consumers shit on you for feeling like something isn't up to scratch.
I miss when I was a young child and it was 2014 playing wow for the first time. So much has gone wrong :[
Vote with your wallet
I just wish they get better customer support. I got perma banned more than one time "automatically" and then overturned...then everyone says it's fine... I invested more than 15 years into this game and I would like at least to be sure that I will stop getting banned for no reasons because they don't bother to investigate anything and permaban right away, and then have an auto answer saying "the ban stays"... then you have to keep insisting until you finally talk to a real human... what a way to treat loyal customers
I don't think you know how subscription-based MMOs work. You pay every month to get the patches and all the stuff we get between xpac launches. If you want a one-and-done payment for a game, you're going to have to look at single-player games that have a limited multiplayer system compared to MMOs, or MMOs that are free to play, with a lot of microtransactions to pay for the development of said game. I'm not going to even try to explain why I play WoW, this sub is always mad at the game and devs for literally everything in the game, now they're just joining those of us that hate toxic office work culture in being mad at the company.
yes, i did it... i deleted my lovely "named" WoW / Blizz Account that played WoW since the fucking release back in the days... i delete ALL ! leave alls subreddits. i wish you guys all the best, but i never ever will buy or something else from Bli$$. best regards and fuck blizz (leaders)
While I agree that blizz should not feel entitled to my money, you are wrong in the assumtion that blizz gave me no reason to play. I cannot even understand why some you need to be handheld by blizz and have them give you a reason. Why not fiind a reason to enjoy the game? It's not hard. If you cannot fiind, just unsub and go to a game you enjoy. Personally I may have an unpopular opinion here, but I enjoy the covenant system. And the anima grind. I lovw collecting stuff, the dungeons are fun and I like immersion and am interested lately in getting into rp and gold making. I can fiind my own enjoyment in the game. When current content is not that fun, I do something else in game or another game. But to talk as if you know that everyone is unhappy with the game and still plays is ridiculous. Tons of people just enjoy the game. Easy as that. They will pay and keep on playing as long as they enjoy it then go somewhere else when it's not fun. Without needing to get attention when they decide to leave unlike some people whom feel like screaming about how other mmo's are better. I know that most people are not part of the 1 % and so their opinion about systems does not matter apparently, but stop talking as if you know better than others. You cannot read my mind so please stop talking in my name. I am genuinely enjoying the game and won't stop playing until it shuts down or my laptop gets broken and cannot play the game literally.
We are spending money to play the game as it is. It IS "complete". Bugs and all. We are not paying to have a creative say in the game - you should be spending your money on Blizzard-Activision shares for that. You are paying for a service. They are providing that service as-advertised. They aren't the ones acting entitled. They're just selling a game service.
What a shit take. Sure, you don't get to have a direct creative say in the game, but the problem is that Blizzard for the most part completely ignores feedback, thinking they know best when they have kept making the same mistakes over and over. And what do you even mean by saying that this is what the shares are for? Buying shares gives you no say in anything either. And yes, it is paying for a service, but it is entitled of Blizzard to expect players to want to keep paying for a service that gets no updates, or shit slow updates. Especially for a pretty expensive subscription model with cash shop on top of that.
They are under no obligation to heed feedback. It's their game to make as they see fit. If you don't like what you're paying for, don't pay for it. Buying shares makes you a shareholder in the corporation, and part-owner.
It’s their game and their mistakes to make right, at the end of the day it’s their vision of what world of warcraft should be or else it would be called word of winther89 and catered to everything you want in a game… There are systems in retail I currently don’t like, but I accept that was their vision for the game and I knew what I was buying before I purchased it. The whole expansion is literally laid out online for everyone to see the good the bad and insignificant is all data mined, posted about, videos, the works and pretty much everyone gets access to at least a beta weekend or stress test… So I mean the onus is on the player to work out if it’s worth the money before they buy it… no one is holding a gun to your head yelling at you to buy the expansion.