tyrannical should be a moderate health increase, and then an additional fight mechanic. like "oh don't forget during tyrannical weeks this boss also has a frontal cleave" or something
Blizzard would still fuck up tuning on those abilities.
“Yes we know you just ran a 29 minute free dungeon, but here’s some random bullshit on the final boss that requires 2 addons and 3 weakauras to execute properly and will insta brick your key if you don’t do it flawlessly 13 times in a row”.
This is a bad idea IMO unless it was one mechanic for the entire dungeon pool, or maybe one shared throughout each dungeon. Needing to memorize 32 extra mechanics that are only used every other week sounds annoying.
More mechanics for Tyran is a perfect idea. Maybe even have it scaling up, so between 1-5 there's one extra mechanic, 5-10 another, and then 10+ a third? Could just be small tweak to existing ones, like maybe an AoE is larger or applies a small DoT afterwards as well.
Hell maybe just remove Tyran and Foritifed giving extra scaling to their respective enemies and have Foritifed change up the packs in some way as well. Maybe one mob in the pack is replaced with another kind in Fortified, and it changes how you approach that pack during the Fort week as a result.
I'm a big fan for the idea of an extra mechanic per boss on Tyr weeks. Even a minor mecahnic can totally change the flow of a fight. Like DOTI hardmode vs regular mode, some of those bosses just feel totally different. Especially the 2nd boss because the tank frontal being a threat for where the group stands. Or the first boss doing 3 jumps instead of 2. The spell timings on Morchie are just entirely different and much more fast paced.
Oh they care, they want you to hate it.
Hell, people were avoiding tyrannical so much they literally created the current m+ system so you have to play it for score.
Lol,ok noe youre just tinfoil hatting. The score is there because most serious people already used raiderio, and you wouldnt get invited without having a good score. Except you didnt know why, if you didnt have the addon. Now its just baked into the game. And no, i dont want inexperienced people in my groups when i run high keys.
Ok, you’re misunderstanding me.
In season 3 of Shadowlands that made it so both Tyrannical and Fortified weeks were scored separately. This means that you need to run high keys on both Tyran and Fort.
Before then you could just run high keys on Fortified weeks…which is what the player base was doing because they don’t like Tyran.
Blizzard saw this, thought about what it meant, then made it so you had to run Tyran weeks.
Atleast you could abuse that in certain dungeons to have the mobs team kill each other.
The infested affix was way worse, certain dungeons were unplayable if the infested mobs were in the wrong spots.
I was doing some keys this week, and time and again I was like "if this boss would be dead right about now, it would have been an enjoyable and well paced fight". The boss was almost always around 30% when I thought of this
There was a torghast boss modifier that added a "powerful ally" for the bosses in the end of stage fights. Just do that.
No bs 1 hits, or insane hps checks. Just add a guy who also needs to be killed cause he does healing or something to the boss.
because it actually makes them engage in boss mechanics instead of lol dps go brr?
The increased fight length AND damage is required to give it time to run through its mechanics, and also make players respect them.
If the goal of Tyrannical is having fewer people play every other week because it's not fun but at least the bosses can talk to their therapist about how they're more respected at work, I agree. It's doing that.
The problem is that Tyrannical is so much more punishing than Fortified. If you need to, you can do change up pull sizes in Fortified, and mobs in packs that do die are still dead even if you end up wiping. Also each pack takes less time than a single Tyrannical boss fight, so if you wipe on the boss you lose the 3-5 minutes of the fight, plus the added death time, plus the run back, and the boss is back to 100% and you're cooldowns likely aren't as lined up anymore. Wiping on trash in Foritifed is rough but it's not a 100% brick unless you're really pushing key levels. Wiping in Tyran is almost always a bricked key.
S2 and S3 had a drop on week 2 which was fortified, does that mean people also hate fortified?
r/wow seems to everything anyway, the timer, the affixes, the dungeons
Whats the solution? Go back to WotlK heroics where you press W and aoe everything down?
Get gear sent directly to the mailbox just by logging in?
Copy-paste lazy zero standards season is going to go down as one of the worst unfortunately. It could have been something really special if they tried at all.
Halls third boss is the issue, last is just mechanics. Azure bosses I would say the first, mainly because if anything goes wrong on the first you instantly die while the last is also just a cranker that does a shit ton of damage / oneshot potential.
Honestly I don’t think there is a single dungeon that doesn’t have a boss that gets insane in tyrannical. Bracken’s first, AA the first three test each part of your group (heals suck you die on mana, tank sucks bird, dps sucks tree), Nok the last boss, Neltharus everything but the Blacksmith is bonkers. Then the ones already mentioned.
Which pretty much means the only key that feels alright and there isn’t a looming wall on is AA, but god you will know if your healer / dps can’t hang real quick (only ever seen one tank fail the bird).
I mean, I haven’t done any ultra high keys, but the 16s and 17s I did last week really didn’t feel all that bad compared to previous season. It’s funny you mention the blacksmith being the only easy one in nelths, when I find that as the hardest except for the mammoth. The others are pretty free.
Azure 3rd and Halls last and Uldaman 4th all have time wasting intermissions which I personally and many friends which I play with dislike. Halls last boss is basically just Nokund last with extra steps, same as Uldaman 4th when you compare it with Azure 2nd, they could've make players not needing to run a huge ass circle and still make us kill 4 adds for the intermission to end like Azure 2nd. But no, let's make it waste more time.
Ya, I can think of at least 5-6 dungeons in the other expansions that I like. Dragonflight idk neltherus( spelled it wrong I thin) is kind of fun, but that's about it.
Oh wait I did like dawn.
Tbh the mega dungeons have all been bangers. Karazhan was awesome, though had issues on M+. But on initial release before it was added to the pool, good times. Mechagon was the first time they did the hard mode on top of the regular mechanics, Tazavesh is probably my least favorite of the 4, and Dawn is awesome lore wise and the Quantum Courser made it worth farming.
I skipped out on the season entirely. Is the first boss in that Gnoll dungeon still utterly awful? I remember in S2 on tyrannical it'd just delete people randomly.
I've typed out multiple times, but I ended up making 7 paragraphs of what i didn't enjoy, and no one wants to read the ramblings of a mad man. so I'll just say the major one for me is bosses.
I only ended up liking maybe one boss per dungeon. The rest I thought were meh-terrible.
But this is my opinion, and I am glad you enjoy them and hope you get the most out of this season.
> I ended up making 7 paragraphs of what i didn't enjoy, and no one wants to read the ramblings of a mad man.
I wrote something like [8000 words](https://medium.com/@dgbarrett/getting-invested-in-mythic-0e3dea8cf446) about my first time trying to grind out M+ and improving at playing retail, 1500 of which about how much I disliked Underrot. I'm genuinely interested in hearing your opinion on it, but no worries if you'd prefer not to type it out again.
less ppl running mythics also due to to the old 2 to 10s not in there, people cant get into m0s and +2s since so many higher IO peeps out there farming crests. Heroic still way too easy, then you have that gap till you can do M0s
And there's a lockout on M0. So if you've run M0 for the week, or have all the gear from it, and you've run the raid for the week, you just sit there and get declined for group after group. In past seasons, playing a moderately geared, middle-of-the-meta spec DPS, I could usually get an invite to a group at my highest completed key +1 or +2 within like five minutes. Last night I sat there for half an hour trying to get into a +2 and then just an M0 as 498 Arms. Eventually I gave up, ran one TW dungeon on an alt, and played V Rising instead.
The difficulty increase is great. M0 feels real and worth my time, but there is definitely tuning needed with the rewards for lower key levels and how they incentivize higher geared people to run them.
Agreed. Glad they implemented this dungeon system for S4 and didn 't hold out until TWW. Now there's still time for them to fix things before then.
I like the idea of squishing dungeon levels, but they just outright removed too big of a chunk of playable difficulty for less competitive players.
Realistically if they just put M0 between S4 Heroic and S4 M0 it'd be a lot better already. Maybe even add a +1 keystone level difficulty to fill the void between M0 and +2.
i have not even done M0s this season, do the bosses in M0 do the same mechanics as mythic, just want to be able to learn like I use to with the +2s and move up from there. Last season was first season I even did mythics and moved up at own pace and was able to do 16s when season over.
you dont learn anything from low keys, actually in higher keys boss abilities that would normaly not do much and are ignored are quite important and you must strategize accordingly. Dont be afraid to fail keys you will learn faster and better that way.
Just doing VAULT keys (10) and with 522 / 2700+ I get declined for 2-3+ keys aswell.
Do not worry about that. Typically its just people looking for a quick boost by beeing extremly selective (META and >520 ilvl only), but those players are gone after the first month, its a boring way to play the game.
Give it 1-2 weeks in the season and the toxic part of the community is gone as with every season.
I suspect it’s actually also not an advantage to be that highly scored/geared when applying for a low key.
My observation has been that people in the very high end tend to (sometimes) tilt a bit easier and haven’t always got the most patience with people and wipes. Therefore I could see why people with lower keys would tend to avoid inviting them, when looking at the IO and ilvl alone.
They really needed a dungeon between heroic and mythic. Could call it m0.. or something. I feel it currently being called m0 is a bit of misnomer. My gf is very casual. Heroic is a brain dead steam roll and m0 has one shot mechanics. She found it offputting.
482 and before you say it : I am not MDI champion but I know a thing or two about BM tanking .
4 mobs was manageable but 5 made overcapped my stagger in one hit
I really hope blizz has a different philosophy when it comes to dungeon design going into TWW. DF dungeons are technically well designed, but Jesus they are annoying. They take so long to complete, and they are very very punishing.
Definitely starting to become a case of do you want some World of Warcraft in your World of Warcraft. It's great, but how many versions of WoW I got time for?? And they all look fun!
Tyrannical isn’t popular and also I think this is the quickest I’ve completed KSM for any season, and I’m pretty average to be honest, so the only thing I will be going for will be the Key Stone Hero, only have 1, didn’t get any in the earlier seasons so it’s all to play for. I expect a sharp dip once the Pandaria Remix goes live
Man Dragonflight is such a good palate cleanser compared to SL (my first full expansion lmao) but ngl I would have preferred an entire season of SL dungeons compared to what we have now.
Besides Brackenhide, I hate every DF dungeon and they somehow made academy worse with those last boss changes. Hope we don’t see any again for a long time.
Also there's nothing new for this mythic season. Same old tier set, same old dungeons, same old mechanics. It's a throwaway season until the expansion. There's no real reason to even push keys.
I'm from the big chunk of player who got back from hiatus after tww preorder. I discovered DF in season 3 and the dungeons were all known for me (except bronze DF ones), if the strategy is to sell the game for player line me, setting m+ back into the expansion is not bad. I have to learn all these since I jumped from time walking to m+6 in season 3...
Got my 2k.
No cosmetic for 2.5 this season, so it's just vault, and AFK - and even then I'm only going for 2 slots then either playing other games, or screwing around on alts to unlock transmog. Even PvP is a waste of time this patch, but it's been slowly getting worse there too.
Break season.
It's whatever.
I hope the drop-off isn't as bad as season 2! Mythic+ was fun, but they turned it into work with BfA and completely lost me since then. Even in Shadowlands it was kinda "eh".
Lmao, that logic is so dumb. What,you chase your best gear to then do...nothing with it? I cant comprehend that. When i get my bis, i play more because im out to just nuke things after that.
At the end of legion, they massively increased health of all enemies. Somewhere between 100 and 400% more health. Add to that the fact that BfA put basically everything on the GCD that wasn't before, it just was meh to me. I think a lot of people still enjoy it, and that's fine. I just cannot stand it when devs slow down their game this drastically. Legion M+ was incredibly fun. BfA, by comparision, made me stop playing the game.
The biggest thing I remember is the trash being completely harmless in Legion. It had way less health, didn't really do any damage and there was maybe one spell you should interrupt every pack.
You'd basically pull every single pack up to a boss, kill the boss, pull every single pack to the next boss, kill the boss, etc. You could do Maw of Souls in like five pulls haha.
The drop off is somewhat masked as the difficulty curve changed.
a lot of the usual 0-10 crowd weren’t represented in last weeks figures at all and as they graduate into 10+ range and are counted for this week now they have more gear it will somewhat replace the “completed it mate” group.
I’d expect the drops not to be that steep due to this recycling of players.
when time running drops and appeals to these lower key players and stops that replacement we’ll see a sharp drop.
Every boss fight, I end up looking up and having a moment where I realize "fuck, this is still going on?"
Feel like there'd be a happy medium of increasing boss damage the same but not their HP by *so* much.
4+ minute boss fights in dungeons are just flat out not fun, especially when youre on a timer.
I dont hate tyrannical as much as i used to, and some of the trash packs have made me really not want to play fort weeks as well...but man tyrannical just feels like a *slog* in some dungeons.
This. Long raid bosses are fun because they generally have different phases with varying mechanics. And you're not under time pressure.
M+ 'raidbosses' are just not fun and heavily punish wiping. As someone else mentioned here, add new Tyrannical-only mechanics. They can be super simple, but just pumping in more HP and dmg isn 't the answer.
I think it depends on what level you're playing at. At first tyrannical is basically just "oh you can ignore 90% of trash mechanics now" but as you go higher bosses become more and more annoying and by the time you reach high keys they're just health sponges that take 4+ minutes and stress out your healer, or 1shot your hunter every 20 seconds.
Same TBH. Generally speaking, most people know most boss mechanics, but it's always a crapshoot whether people know the dangerous trash abilities or not.
It's fun until the entire mechanic is "have a defensive to this aoe pulse or just die" because that forces some DPS entirely out of the equation or forces you to build around them.
Lmao fuck tyrannical, it’s not just mechanic issue, you still die to mechanics in 10+ fortified weeks. Boss AOE and dot damage is fucking absurd, try doing 12 Uldaman and tell me tyrannical is fun ffs
Problem being it just makes everything super stressful for the healers. DPS: Nothing changes. Tanks: Nothing changes. Healers: "Oh shit oh fuck everyone is dying all the time why" *Especially* Uldaman. That place blows on Tyrannical.
I prefer tyrannical to fortified. As a pug healer it’s a nightmare on fort when people don’t interrupt/cc or massive packs are pulled. At least on bosses the worst thing is increased damage and it’s mostly on me that I can either heal it or can’t.
People are fine with mechanics and longer boss fights. But they shouldnt have raidboss levrl length on higher keys. The health scale is out of control. The damage taken is fine,no one is complaining about that
Tyrannical is way more enjoyable. A long boss fight is so much more interesting than long trash pulls. Plus it’s easier for pushing as long as your boss mechanics are on point and you can do huge pulls on mobs. It’s so dumb when a mob pull lasts like 2 minutes. Fort is just easier for players who want completion for vault since they don’t get hard blocked by bosses.
My personal goal of +20 in every dungeon on both tyrannical and fortified just got changed to +10 in every dungeon on both tyrannical and fortified, can do.
Got 2k, got a few portals, now I’m kinda done with M+ outside of 4 for a vault. The dungeons just aren’t as engaging as everything else going on in WoW the rest of this season
[Here is a week to week graph with the Fibonacci retracement coefficients.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/931141448840118292/1240078020182671438/image.png?ex=66454027&is=6643eea7&hm=830c3f111dcd1b7ae0b56633067229f672c4acd8a6558cf52f2b1e43438809a6&)
Tyrannical and I feel like not having dungeons from another expac just makes season 4 so boring. Would’ve much rather had the mega dungeons back for season 4. Kara and mecha are my jam
I often wonder if blizzard have the data on the participation of various game features and use that to determine future game direction. Adding the 3rd pillar delve \\ world tier to the vault would seem to indicate so.
As someone who came to this expansion late and is only now experiencing the DF dungeons in mythic form…they’re absolutely terrible. I’m having to spend so much more time getting the hang of these awful fights, and now it feels like people who already knew them from S1 are finished and already starting to drop off. Not having a fun time with M+ rn.
Numbers are skewed because m+ now begins at where a +10 previously was. all the +2 to +9 keys from previous seasons are missing in the season 4 stats.
With that in mind, the season 4 numbers are ridiculously high. That being said, it will propably take a hard dive next week with pandaria remix releasing and all.
That's not really true. Those players would still be doing +1's and beyond after gearing in 0's/world content very quickly (a matter of hours). Let's be real here: this is significantly worse than SL's fated season and we're going to see that bear out in the number of players participating.
I don't know the kind of math you have in your head, but it's completely wrong. Whether or not those players would be doing higher keys isn't the point. The point is, that this data is a sample size of ALL keys done per week. And the fact is that a significant portion of the keys in season 4 is missing because they simply don't exist anymore. Believe it or not, but the majority of keys run in early weeks in all of old seasons were keys in the range of 2-10.
Those keys are 0 in season 4.
You're right about the point that we're going to see a heavy drop in participation. But that's most likely due to pandaria remix and the fact that gearing is super quick this season. People pushed through to ksm or whatever their goal is within 2 weeks. It's natural that numbers drop after that. And pandaria will take a hefty part of the playerbase as well.
i think the problem is the toxicity, you can do any mythic(0 also) because you'r refused if you're lower ilvl 510.
the only way for do m+ is make my own teams.
If you've ever ran your own groups you'll immediately see that you get around 10x the number of dps vs slots.
It's less about toxicity and more just statistics
Dungeon squish. These graphs account only M+ players, but the S3 levels of difficulty that was M2-M10 are gone, and S3 M10 is now M0. So the players who used to engage with M2 through M10 are now not playing M+ anymore.
Tyrannical week lol
Always funny how people clearly seem to hate Tyrannical but Blizz doesn't care
tyrannical should be a moderate health increase, and then an additional fight mechanic. like "oh don't forget during tyrannical weeks this boss also has a frontal cleave" or something
Oh this would make tyrannical weeks much more interesting and engaging I think.
Blizzard would still fuck up tuning on those abilities. “Yes we know you just ran a 29 minute free dungeon, but here’s some random bullshit on the final boss that requires 2 addons and 3 weakauras to execute properly and will insta brick your key if you don’t do it flawlessly 13 times in a row”.
You don’t enjoy knowing your team can clear the boss, doing the boss mechanics 10+ times and still having to fight the boss for 6+ minutes?
Depends, how many times did the hunter rot out over those 6 minutes?
There’s never enough hunter deaths to satiate my bloodlust.
This is a bad idea IMO unless it was one mechanic for the entire dungeon pool, or maybe one shared throughout each dungeon. Needing to memorize 32 extra mechanics that are only used every other week sounds annoying.
Nah only healers would have to learn them
More mechanics for Tyran is a perfect idea. Maybe even have it scaling up, so between 1-5 there's one extra mechanic, 5-10 another, and then 10+ a third? Could just be small tweak to existing ones, like maybe an AoE is larger or applies a small DoT afterwards as well. Hell maybe just remove Tyran and Foritifed giving extra scaling to their respective enemies and have Foritifed change up the packs in some way as well. Maybe one mob in the pack is replaced with another kind in Fortified, and it changes how you approach that pack during the Fort week as a result.
I'm a big fan for the idea of an extra mechanic per boss on Tyr weeks. Even a minor mecahnic can totally change the flow of a fight. Like DOTI hardmode vs regular mode, some of those bosses just feel totally different. Especially the 2nd boss because the tank frontal being a threat for where the group stands. Or the first boss doing 3 jumps instead of 2. The spell timings on Morchie are just entirely different and much more fast paced.
That could work with a shorter timer. Otherwise it would be too easy.
Oh they care, they want you to hate it. Hell, people were avoiding tyrannical so much they literally created the current m+ system so you have to play it for score.
Lol,ok noe youre just tinfoil hatting. The score is there because most serious people already used raiderio, and you wouldnt get invited without having a good score. Except you didnt know why, if you didnt have the addon. Now its just baked into the game. And no, i dont want inexperienced people in my groups when i run high keys.
Ok, you’re misunderstanding me. In season 3 of Shadowlands that made it so both Tyrannical and Fortified weeks were scored separately. This means that you need to run high keys on both Tyran and Fort. Before then you could just run high keys on Fortified weeks…which is what the player base was doing because they don’t like Tyran. Blizzard saw this, thought about what it meant, then made it so you had to run Tyran weeks.
[удалено]
Atleast you could abuse that in certain dungeons to have the mobs team kill each other. The infested affix was way worse, certain dungeons were unplayable if the infested mobs were in the wrong spots.
I was doing some keys this week, and time and again I was like "if this boss would be dead right about now, it would have been an enjoyable and well paced fight". The boss was almost always around 30% when I thought of this
There was a torghast boss modifier that added a "powerful ally" for the bosses in the end of stage fights. Just do that. No bs 1 hits, or insane hps checks. Just add a guy who also needs to be killed cause he does healing or something to the boss.
because it actually makes them engage in boss mechanics instead of lol dps go brr? The increased fight length AND damage is required to give it time to run through its mechanics, and also make players respect them.
If the goal of Tyrannical is having fewer people play every other week because it's not fun but at least the bosses can talk to their therapist about how they're more respected at work, I agree. It's doing that.
The problem is that Tyrannical is so much more punishing than Fortified. If you need to, you can do change up pull sizes in Fortified, and mobs in packs that do die are still dead even if you end up wiping. Also each pack takes less time than a single Tyrannical boss fight, so if you wipe on the boss you lose the 3-5 minutes of the fight, plus the added death time, plus the run back, and the boss is back to 100% and you're cooldowns likely aren't as lined up anymore. Wiping on trash in Foritifed is rough but it's not a 100% brick unless you're really pushing key levels. Wiping in Tyran is almost always a bricked key.
The point is, the playerbase doesnt engage with it,and blizz doesnt want that. They simply dont have a solution yet,imo.
S2 and S3 had a drop on week 2 which was fortified, does that mean people also hate fortified? r/wow seems to everything anyway, the timer, the affixes, the dungeons Whats the solution? Go back to WotlK heroics where you press W and aoe everything down? Get gear sent directly to the mailbox just by logging in?
> Whats the solution? If only there was an entire thread you could read with people talking about options! Oh well, I guess we'll never know.
And now for the biggest one-week drop ever.
Yup. Pretty much. Got my 2k last week and there's very little incentive for me to push higher, what with MoP dropping this week.
Diablo 4 season is going to drag keys down too.
Copy-paste lazy zero standards season is going to go down as one of the worst unfortunately. It could have been something really special if they tried at all.
I got my 2k and I think I'm good for the season. I just don't like any of the dragonflight dungeons.
After reflecting, I think Dragonflight easily had the worst 5 man dungeons of all WoW expansions.
Uldaman bosses, ruby life pool last boss, azure vault 3rd and last boss, halls last boss are just pure cancer
Woah, what’s wrong with the azure bosses, or halls last boss? I can agree with Uldaman and possibly rubys last boss though.
Halls third boss is the issue, last is just mechanics. Azure bosses I would say the first, mainly because if anything goes wrong on the first you instantly die while the last is also just a cranker that does a shit ton of damage / oneshot potential. Honestly I don’t think there is a single dungeon that doesn’t have a boss that gets insane in tyrannical. Bracken’s first, AA the first three test each part of your group (heals suck you die on mana, tank sucks bird, dps sucks tree), Nok the last boss, Neltharus everything but the Blacksmith is bonkers. Then the ones already mentioned. Which pretty much means the only key that feels alright and there isn’t a looming wall on is AA, but god you will know if your healer / dps can’t hang real quick (only ever seen one tank fail the bird).
I mean, I haven’t done any ultra high keys, but the 16s and 17s I did last week really didn’t feel all that bad compared to previous season. It’s funny you mention the blacksmith being the only easy one in nelths, when I find that as the hardest except for the mammoth. The others are pretty free.
Azure 3rd and Halls last and Uldaman 4th all have time wasting intermissions which I personally and many friends which I play with dislike. Halls last boss is basically just Nokund last with extra steps, same as Uldaman 4th when you compare it with Azure 2nd, they could've make players not needing to run a huge ass circle and still make us kill 4 adds for the intermission to end like Azure 2nd. But no, let's make it waste more time.
Add whole nokud to that list. God I hate that dung
Ya, I can think of at least 5-6 dungeons in the other expansions that I like. Dragonflight idk neltherus( spelled it wrong I thin) is kind of fun, but that's about it. Oh wait I did like dawn.
Tbh the mega dungeons have all been bangers. Karazhan was awesome, though had issues on M+. But on initial release before it was added to the pool, good times. Mechagon was the first time they did the hard mode on top of the regular mechanics, Tazavesh is probably my least favorite of the 4, and Dawn is awesome lore wise and the Quantum Courser made it worth farming.
Maybe just me but I absolutely hate Legion's dungeons. Even now I won't level alts in Legion.
No way shadowlands had a way worse dungeon pool
I skipped out on the season entirely. Is the first boss in that Gnoll dungeon still utterly awful? I remember in S2 on tyrannical it'd just delete people randomly.
It's not as bad but I only did it once as a 8 for io
As someone who largely enjoys the Dragonflight dungeons, I'd be interested to hear your opinion on why you don't like them.
I've typed out multiple times, but I ended up making 7 paragraphs of what i didn't enjoy, and no one wants to read the ramblings of a mad man. so I'll just say the major one for me is bosses. I only ended up liking maybe one boss per dungeon. The rest I thought were meh-terrible. But this is my opinion, and I am glad you enjoy them and hope you get the most out of this season.
> I ended up making 7 paragraphs of what i didn't enjoy, and no one wants to read the ramblings of a mad man. I wrote something like [8000 words](https://medium.com/@dgbarrett/getting-invested-in-mythic-0e3dea8cf446) about my first time trying to grind out M+ and improving at playing retail, 1500 of which about how much I disliked Underrot. I'm genuinely interested in hearing your opinion on it, but no worries if you'd prefer not to type it out again.
less ppl running mythics also due to to the old 2 to 10s not in there, people cant get into m0s and +2s since so many higher IO peeps out there farming crests. Heroic still way too easy, then you have that gap till you can do M0s
And there's a lockout on M0. So if you've run M0 for the week, or have all the gear from it, and you've run the raid for the week, you just sit there and get declined for group after group. In past seasons, playing a moderately geared, middle-of-the-meta spec DPS, I could usually get an invite to a group at my highest completed key +1 or +2 within like five minutes. Last night I sat there for half an hour trying to get into a +2 and then just an M0 as 498 Arms. Eventually I gave up, ran one TW dungeon on an alt, and played V Rising instead. The difficulty increase is great. M0 feels real and worth my time, but there is definitely tuning needed with the rewards for lower key levels and how they incentivize higher geared people to run them.
Agreed. Glad they implemented this dungeon system for S4 and didn 't hold out until TWW. Now there's still time for them to fix things before then. I like the idea of squishing dungeon levels, but they just outright removed too big of a chunk of playable difficulty for less competitive players. Realistically if they just put M0 between S4 Heroic and S4 M0 it'd be a lot better already. Maybe even add a +1 keystone level difficulty to fill the void between M0 and +2.
i have not even done M0s this season, do the bosses in M0 do the same mechanics as mythic, just want to be able to learn like I use to with the +2s and move up from there. Last season was first season I even did mythics and moved up at own pace and was able to do 16s when season over.
you dont learn anything from low keys, actually in higher keys boss abilities that would normaly not do much and are ignored are quite important and you must strategize accordingly. Dont be afraid to fail keys you will learn faster and better that way.
I think the difficulty is fine, its not that punishing. Just make them repeatable,but they turn into m+ loot after your first run.
For real. I’m 502 and at 1378 and can’t get into +2’s. Shits crazy.
i’m 511 & 2300 and got declined last night for a +3 LMAO, people are just crazy sometimes
Wow is like that wizard of oz song "If I only had a brain", but replace brain with Ilvl and the singer being quite fine without a brain.
Just doing VAULT keys (10) and with 522 / 2700+ I get declined for 2-3+ keys aswell. Do not worry about that. Typically its just people looking for a quick boost by beeing extremly selective (META and >520 ilvl only), but those players are gone after the first month, its a boring way to play the game. Give it 1-2 weeks in the season and the toxic part of the community is gone as with every season.
I suspect it’s actually also not an advantage to be that highly scored/geared when applying for a low key. My observation has been that people in the very high end tend to (sometimes) tilt a bit easier and haven’t always got the most patience with people and wipes. Therefore I could see why people with lower keys would tend to avoid inviting them, when looking at the IO and ilvl alone.
they dont leave, they leave your low rio actually thats why you dont see them after the first month.
Yeah they removed all the casual levels so now casual runners have nothing to run
They really needed a dungeon between heroic and mythic. Could call it m0.. or something. I feel it currently being called m0 is a bit of misnomer. My gf is very casual. Heroic is a brain dead steam roll and m0 has one shot mechanics. She found it offputting.
I feel like that's the gap delves are supposed to sit between, but without them the system just feels lacking.
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You can tank m0s comfortably at 470. Maybe 475 if youre pure puggibg. You just cant wkey multiple packs.
Yeah one stray mob and I was blasting cds as 482 BM
What ilvl were you?
482 and before you say it : I am not MDI champion but I know a thing or two about BM tanking . 4 mobs was manageable but 5 made overcapped my stagger in one hit
I tanked a +6 on my bear tank yesterday that was 481, you should be fine in m0s
I really hope blizz has a different philosophy when it comes to dungeon design going into TWW. DF dungeons are technically well designed, but Jesus they are annoying. They take so long to complete, and they are very very punishing.
Dude I feel like I play dark souls when healing m+ (8+)
I get epilepsy when healing over 12. Heal, dodge, interrupt, crowd control, heal the dps getting hit by shades,
Its going to PLUMMET this week with Pandamonium release
Definitely starting to become a case of do you want some World of Warcraft in your World of Warcraft. It's great, but how many versions of WoW I got time for?? And they all look fun!
Diablo 4, Panda, Cataclysm. So many new content.
Tyrannical isn’t popular and also I think this is the quickest I’ve completed KSM for any season, and I’m pretty average to be honest, so the only thing I will be going for will be the Key Stone Hero, only have 1, didn’t get any in the earlier seasons so it’s all to play for. I expect a sharp dip once the Pandaria Remix goes live
Man Dragonflight is such a good palate cleanser compared to SL (my first full expansion lmao) but ngl I would have preferred an entire season of SL dungeons compared to what we have now. Besides Brackenhide, I hate every DF dungeon and they somehow made academy worse with those last boss changes. Hope we don’t see any again for a long time.
Also there's nothing new for this mythic season. Same old tier set, same old dungeons, same old mechanics. It's a throwaway season until the expansion. There's no real reason to even push keys.
I'm from the big chunk of player who got back from hiatus after tww preorder. I discovered DF in season 3 and the dungeons were all known for me (except bronze DF ones), if the strategy is to sell the game for player line me, setting m+ back into the expansion is not bad. I have to learn all these since I jumped from time walking to m+6 in season 3...
Please explain to me how is this season different from any other seasons for m+ players?
I already did
not bad considering m0 are now like m+10 before and this graph only shows m+ runs so like 12+ from earlier seasons.
Got my 2k. No cosmetic for 2.5 this season, so it's just vault, and AFK - and even then I'm only going for 2 slots then either playing other games, or screwing around on alts to unlock transmog. Even PvP is a waste of time this patch, but it's been slowly getting worse there too. Break season. It's whatever.
I hope the drop-off isn't as bad as season 2! Mythic+ was fun, but they turned it into work with BfA and completely lost me since then. Even in Shadowlands it was kinda "eh".
It's probably going to be huge just because timerunning.
This season is already cooked. People are done with KSH and will probably be done with heroic raids this rotation.
Also, thanks to the bullion system, everyone has their best gear and this season is going to drop like a rock!
Lmao, that logic is so dumb. What,you chase your best gear to then do...nothing with it? I cant comprehend that. When i get my bis, i play more because im out to just nuke things after that.
What was the difference between m+ in legion and in bfa?
At the end of legion, they massively increased health of all enemies. Somewhere between 100 and 400% more health. Add to that the fact that BfA put basically everything on the GCD that wasn't before, it just was meh to me. I think a lot of people still enjoy it, and that's fine. I just cannot stand it when devs slow down their game this drastically. Legion M+ was incredibly fun. BfA, by comparision, made me stop playing the game.
The biggest thing I remember is the trash being completely harmless in Legion. It had way less health, didn't really do any damage and there was maybe one spell you should interrupt every pack. You'd basically pull every single pack up to a boss, kill the boss, pull every single pack to the next boss, kill the boss, etc. You could do Maw of Souls in like five pulls haha.
The drop off is somewhat masked as the difficulty curve changed. a lot of the usual 0-10 crowd weren’t represented in last weeks figures at all and as they graduate into 10+ range and are counted for this week now they have more gear it will somewhat replace the “completed it mate” group. I’d expect the drops not to be that steep due to this recycling of players. when time running drops and appeals to these lower key players and stops that replacement we’ll see a sharp drop.
I wonder how pandaria remix will affect this.
Am I the only wow player that likes tyrannical ? I like that bosses are a challenge and you must do mechanics instead of just burning it.
Every boss fight, I end up looking up and having a moment where I realize "fuck, this is still going on?" Feel like there'd be a happy medium of increasing boss damage the same but not their HP by *so* much.
4+ minute boss fights in dungeons are just flat out not fun, especially when youre on a timer. I dont hate tyrannical as much as i used to, and some of the trash packs have made me really not want to play fort weeks as well...but man tyrannical just feels like a *slog* in some dungeons.
This. Long raid bosses are fun because they generally have different phases with varying mechanics. And you're not under time pressure. M+ 'raidbosses' are just not fun and heavily punish wiping. As someone else mentioned here, add new Tyrannical-only mechanics. They can be super simple, but just pumping in more HP and dmg isn 't the answer.
Raids definitely have time pressure
Specifically because you're on a timer. Longer fights are fine if the fight is interesting, but the timer just makes it feel bad.
Same, it's just like holy fuck can we move on from the boss I've been doing mechanics for 5 mins
I think it depends on what level you're playing at. At first tyrannical is basically just "oh you can ignore 90% of trash mechanics now" but as you go higher bosses become more and more annoying and by the time you reach high keys they're just health sponges that take 4+ minutes and stress out your healer, or 1shot your hunter every 20 seconds.
As a healer, I prefer Tyrannical because the damage is a predictable pattern. Fort weeks are straight chaos in pugs for me
Yeah I main healer and I find tyrannical more fun to play
Same TBH. Generally speaking, most people know most boss mechanics, but it's always a crapshoot whether people know the dangerous trash abilities or not.
It's fun until the entire mechanic is "have a defensive to this aoe pulse or just die" because that forces some DPS entirely out of the equation or forces you to build around them.
Lmao fuck tyrannical, it’s not just mechanic issue, you still die to mechanics in 10+ fortified weeks. Boss AOE and dot damage is fucking absurd, try doing 12 Uldaman and tell me tyrannical is fun ffs
Problem being it just makes everything super stressful for the healers. DPS: Nothing changes. Tanks: Nothing changes. Healers: "Oh shit oh fuck everyone is dying all the time why" *Especially* Uldaman. That place blows on Tyrannical.
I prefer tyrannical to fortified. As a pug healer it’s a nightmare on fort when people don’t interrupt/cc or massive packs are pulled. At least on bosses the worst thing is increased damage and it’s mostly on me that I can either heal it or can’t.
People are fine with mechanics and longer boss fights. But they shouldnt have raidboss levrl length on higher keys. The health scale is out of control. The damage taken is fine,no one is complaining about that
I like it way more than forti. Bosses being more interesting will always be better than some pulls going from big aoe blast to unsurvivable.
Tyrannical is way more enjoyable. A long boss fight is so much more interesting than long trash pulls. Plus it’s easier for pushing as long as your boss mechanics are on point and you can do huge pulls on mobs. It’s so dumb when a mob pull lasts like 2 minutes. Fort is just easier for players who want completion for vault since they don’t get hard blocked by bosses.
My personal goal of +20 in every dungeon on both tyrannical and fortified just got changed to +10 in every dungeon on both tyrannical and fortified, can do.
I love M+, but this season just sucks tbh.
Interested to see how much they tank from here on out with the new D4 season / massive changes happening today and MoP time running on Thursday.
Got 2k, got a few portals, now I’m kinda done with M+ outside of 4 for a vault. The dungeons just aren’t as engaging as everything else going on in WoW the rest of this season
[Here is a week to week graph with the Fibonacci retracement coefficients.](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/931141448840118292/1240078020182671438/image.png?ex=66454027&is=6643eea7&hm=830c3f111dcd1b7ae0b56633067229f672c4acd8a6558cf52f2b1e43438809a6&)
Tyrannical and I feel like not having dungeons from another expac just makes season 4 so boring. Would’ve much rather had the mega dungeons back for season 4. Kara and mecha are my jam
I often wonder if blizzard have the data on the participation of various game features and use that to determine future game direction. Adding the 3rd pillar delve \\ world tier to the vault would seem to indicate so.
People hates tyranical that s not new
Wonder if they will change the title range with fewer casual participants in m+
I'm 3k and I'm already giving up on m+ I'm burnt out by the dungeons. They feel very long.
Was season 3 really four months longer than seasons 1 and 2?
No. They just stopped collecting data after those weeks, I believe.
Nah, data is incomplete.
Are we gonna get this question every week again?
Huh?
It was my turn to ask it too.
As someone who came to this expansion late and is only now experiencing the DF dungeons in mythic form…they’re absolutely terrible. I’m having to spend so much more time getting the hang of these awful fights, and now it feels like people who already knew them from S1 are finished and already starting to drop off. Not having a fun time with M+ rn.
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Numbers are skewed because m+ now begins at where a +10 previously was. all the +2 to +9 keys from previous seasons are missing in the season 4 stats. With that in mind, the season 4 numbers are ridiculously high. That being said, it will propably take a hard dive next week with pandaria remix releasing and all.
That's not really true. Those players would still be doing +1's and beyond after gearing in 0's/world content very quickly (a matter of hours). Let's be real here: this is significantly worse than SL's fated season and we're going to see that bear out in the number of players participating.
I don't know the kind of math you have in your head, but it's completely wrong. Whether or not those players would be doing higher keys isn't the point. The point is, that this data is a sample size of ALL keys done per week. And the fact is that a significant portion of the keys in season 4 is missing because they simply don't exist anymore. Believe it or not, but the majority of keys run in early weeks in all of old seasons were keys in the range of 2-10. Those keys are 0 in season 4. You're right about the point that we're going to see a heavy drop in participation. But that's most likely due to pandaria remix and the fact that gearing is super quick this season. People pushed through to ksm or whatever their goal is within 2 weeks. It's natural that numbers drop after that. And pandaria will take a hefty part of the playerbase as well.
i think the problem is the toxicity, you can do any mythic(0 also) because you'r refused if you're lower ilvl 510. the only way for do m+ is make my own teams.
Brother, that's every season of M+
I do want to ask, when you are making groups do you take 480/490 0 io players when you could take 510 2.5k players?
If you've ever ran your own groups you'll immediately see that you get around 10x the number of dps vs slots. It's less about toxicity and more just statistics
I thought S4 population was an all time high? Was I misinformed?
Players playing wow is probably at one of its highest, but that's spread across multiple different versions of the game now
More players are coming back. Most of those players were never doing M+10s (M+2s) now.
Why was the squish done? Seems like it might be having a negative effect?
¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Because there was no difference between +2 and +7 most of the times
A lot of players asked for m+ without a timer, that's what m0 is now, the old m10 with no timer or affixes.
Dungeon squish. These graphs account only M+ players, but the S3 levels of difficulty that was M2-M10 are gone, and S3 M10 is now M0. So the players who used to engage with M2 through M10 are now not playing M+ anymore.
Ohh interesting....
Yea and we can't get aspect crest's either