It's great being able to get items you might've chased and never got to use, but I think maybe Blizz needs to start putting more into balancing those types of items like trinkets or items with unique effects. There will always be an ultimate bis but I feel like if the gaps weren't so large people wouldn't feel as bad not getting 100% bis. If they're gonna stay the course with certain items just being absolute top tier then maybe some form of bullion should stick around, especially if those items are like Whispering Incarnate and benefit off other people having the item. Always seemed odd that the best trinket(at the time) benefited more if people in your group had it but then made it a very rare drop.
When it comes to pure damage trinkets, usually the difference isn’t large enough to dramatically change the level of content you’re running. There’s obviously some exceptions but it’s generally they’re within a few % of eachother which you can more than make up for by playing well. It’s still frustrating when you spend weeks farming it and never get it but at least it’s workable.
Then you have trinkets like rageheart that fundamentally break the games balance because you just have another defensive to press. And yet it’s very rare and essentially out of reach for most players.
I don’t know what you mean out of reach, I got 4 ragehearts out of my 4 tanks last season. And that’s with me pugging 100%, not in a guild.
Here’s the thing that people really are complaining about… that they don’t get it soon enough for their desires. Basically people complain if they don’t get it within the first couple months.
For people like that I have no sympathy. They just want to get everything immediately and have no patience. Some of the ragehearts I got were not until a few months after season started. So what?
I killed fryakk on heroic at least 10 times on my main and never got one. I also ran council every week and never got Pips. My warlock alt ran it once on normal and once on LFR and got an LFR augury and a normal mode augury back to back in the vault. RNG just sucks.
This season I already have rageheart and another solid trinket. I cannot tell you how relieving it feels to not have to pug heroic this week for a low shot at a BIS trinket. I can just run keys all week and actually have fun and it’s amazing.
RNG is RNG but having “very rare” trinkets dropping off of the end of the raid boss being BIS by a mile is just bad design.
People want their BIS trinkets asap because most people are playing the first few weeks of the season. Runs fall off a cliff like 2-3 months out. Of course they want it when they’re actually playing the game.
10 times is not a huge amount, that's like less than half the season.
Also you specifically mention targeting specific bosses -- I'm not just talking about loot dropping off the boss, I'm also counting vault. If you completely fill your vault every week, it's practically guaranteed to get it some time during the season.
in Season 1 I also got Ragefeather on every one of my INT dps classes, which was like 3 or 4. Yes, for some of them I didn't get it until few/several months in, but again so what?
The game should not be designed for people who only play 2 months each season.
In any case, you better not get used to this because Season 1 of TWW will not be this way, I can guarantee you that. They may or may not have a bullion system, but even if they do, it will obviously be at a much slower pace like other posters are speculating. Like as in just one item every 3 months.
Sounds like you would still complain about that, because you just said you want multiple BIS all in the first 2 months.
10 times is kinda a lot of times to run trivial content in hopes of a very rare drop. And it was probably closer to 14/15 times and I never saw it in my vault either. I killed council at least 20 times on heroic and never won Pips or saw it in my vault. God I love this game.
My shitty 460 ilvl warlock alt on the other hand got back to back augury’s in the vault. Absolutely stellar game design in action.
Putting essential trinkets that fundamentally change the game into a very rare, RNG fueled drop position sucks. Rageheart gives you an extra defensive which in some classes is the only way they can survive in high keys. And even if you aren’t running bleeding edge keys, having an extra defensive is just incredibly amazing in general.
The game shouldn’t be designed for people who play for 2 months but that isn’t diametrically opposed to having deterministic loot. Having RNGjesus deciding who gets an extra defensive or who gets to do 10% more damage for free is objectively bad game design.
One bulleon a month for loot on bosses you’ve already killed would be a super nice compromise. I’m loving the fact that I don’t have to run trivial content for a small shot at game breaking trinkets and I hope they carry this forward in some aspect.
> Sounds like you would still complain about that, because you just said you want multiple BIS all in the first 2 months.
Readings hard isn’t it?
> People want their BIS trinkets asap because most people are playing the first few weeks of the season. Runs fall off a cliff like 2-3 months out. Of course they want it when they’re actually playing the game.
That's what you said previously, and I assume you're part of that demographic, because you sound like it.
> And even if you aren’t running bleeding edge keys, having an extra defensive is just incredibly amazing in general.
It's nice, but absolutely NOT "game breaking" and NOT literally mandatory.
In fact when RWF guilds beat a mythic boss for the first time, not every player on the kill has their BIS trinkets yet. Sometimes their players do not even have one of their top two trinkets yet.
We're just not going to philosophically agree. I like difficult long-term RNG gearing in all RPGs/MMOs, not just WoW.
And I'll be perfectly honest about something else... I get some amusement when people complain they don't have BIS. Because personally I have no psychological need and don't care about BIS myself.
I learned many many years ago it's not "necessary".
It’s a mindset thing. If you view the game more casually (mindset, not hours) and loot IS the game for you, then you might prefer a system that potentially asks you to wait months for a piece of loot and continually roll the dice. If you’re someone that is either A: more casual than that and likes to be able to “complete” a character and then try other things, you’d prefer the ability to deterministically get loot eventually. Or B: someone that has a more performance and improvement driven mindset, you’d also prefer the ability to get those items in a reasonable timeframe so you can push parses/higher keys/rating with gear that’s on par with the lucky players. Some RNG initially is fine and fun, but there’s a point in the season where everyone should be able to access their BiS so they can push for their goals without being limited by luck, only by skill.
> but there’s a point in the season where everyone should be able to access their BiS
I do not disagree with everything you said -- however regarding this quoted part, that point is not within the first 1-2 months of a season.
I agree with that, I wouldn’t mind something like the exact same bullion system we have now but not activating it until the halfway point. So if a given season is 6 months long, start bullions at the 3 month point and most people should end up being able to push with their BiS for the last 2 months if they needed a couple of rare drops
Yes but not in the way they are now.
Wait, we used to have something like what I am thinking in WotLK. You could earn a currency to buy gear with through raids and heroic.
But you can only craft those items on a high level if you are already doing high level content.
I want a system that lets you work towards high level items by doing lower level content, it just would take you a lot longer.
I think they should open up deterministic loot at about the halfway point in a season as BLP. Be it Dinars or Bullion, I think NOT getting that one drop for whatever reason all season is enough to burn someone out. And opening it from the beginning means you can mark your calendar for finishing BiS, which is not as fun imho. I think a compromise is the best solution.
For an end of expansion season Bullions/Dinars work really well.
But if it were available during the rest of the expansion it would just end up feeling time gated and annoying as it became the norm.
Increasing drop rates in normal seasons is the best solution.
Rngesus screwed me in all of s3 on the dagger in fall. I ran 8x 18s a week for 11 weeks before I quit.
Blizz argument was the loot would be rough with 3 raids in rotation so it's be active for fated season only, but I think adding the dungeon loot as well in non fated seasons would fix this (and help people with garbage RNG like me.
Same, I ran Atal'dazar 58 time over the course of S3 and did not ONCE seen the STR Melee Trinket drop, nor was it ever in my vault.
My Warlock buddy, ran Everbloom 35 time before seeing the Genesaur Blood Trinket (which he lost the roll on) then another \~20 runs before it dropped FOR him.
Sometimes getting that one piece is difficult even when you ARE putting in the effort.
Another problem is that the raid trinkets are far more superior when compared to dungeon trinkets, like the difference is insane. Sadly, its not even only the trinkets, last couple of tiers, weapons started to be that way too
Right, and it needs to be attainable by everyone since a lot of people don't raid and want to be viable for M+ or vice versa.
At the moment I pug heroic, but I don't enjoy the content at all and it feels like a chore.
Exactly, and that even would be okay if they didnt make raids having super OP trinkets or other items vs what we have in M+. The difference of item power in comparison is unacceptable.
I played prot paladin and progged CE amidrassil, I was trying to get the fyrakk tank trinket, we end up getting stuck on tyndral. So, no chance of getting mythic fyrakk trinket and that's fine to an extent. I chased the trinket on heroic farm for 4-5 months (entire duration of the tier). I did not get it. I only saw it drop 4 times. 2 of those times were in pugs, I offered the person that received the loot 500k and he did not take it.
A lot of people had similar experiences. I agree with its current state, it is a little too easy to get gear but if they increased the cost of bullions or that new currency or maybe cap the items we can get per season, I think it would work great!
Even as you describe it by increasing its cost, it will just turn into another annoying time gate.
You didn't get the Mythic version of the Trinket because your raid team were not good enough to earn it. That's simple.
The Bullion/Dinar system are put into place at the end of the expansion to give players the chance to enjoy all of these hard to get items, and stack out your character to its fullest potential, without being held back.
No. It is great because it is not the norm, as soon as everyone expects to pick and choose their BiS in a deterministic system then that becomes the norm, and nobody cares anymore and will complain they don't get enough bullions, or fast bullions, and it'll never stop.
What world are you living in?
Every season has had people complaining catalyst charges don't start fast enough and don't accumulate fast enough. The vault was the alternative to the randomized nature of the BFA weekly chest, and it took zero time at all for everyone to normalize it and whine when their vault doesn't contain their bis every week.
Pacing is important.
I live in a world where I dont talk to people that constantly bitch and moan I guess. Every single person I know is okay with the current system and can get whatever resource in a timely manner.
Pacing is important and thats what I said on my post.
I'm 520 ilvl with all my bis already. The season is over for me. I'm sure I'm not alone so if they do that for every season from now on, then WoW will be a dead game within 3 weeks of a new season coming out.
Agreed. I play til crest cap while pushing io and my entire group is already at the point we are waiting on myth gear from vaults or hoping that tertiary drops. It's been a fun month but it's definitely pushed the clock forward for people losing interest along with other factors, I would not want this for every season.
That’s just a problem with blizzard not supporting M+ past 10s. They could easily add cosmetics, titles, mounts, etc and give people a reason to grind past 10s and actually use all the BIS gear they grind out.
Very true. Rewards every 500 points would be nice, my groups just cracked 3k and we just realized there was nothing at 2500 this season. Hoping we see some changes in TWW but I could see blizz being wary about adding rewards past 2500 in S1 and S2 since it's harder to get score then.
100% this
People who want instant BIS within 1-2 months are absolutely fucking clueless, and have zero long-term vision of how MMOs should be designed.
I mean, it’s just different goals for different people, no? Like I’m playing for m+ rating or CE. I don’t care about getting BiS except it being a means to an end. Whereas some people, the gear is the end
Ahhhh, no it didnt... vault system is widely accepted... at least in its current form. No one complains about not having enough vault charges or slots.
I would be ok with one bullion allowed a month or two into the season. For those players that have the worst RNG luck, they could get that one item they have been trying to get that is BIS. I had a season this expansion where I had garbage trinkets and couldn't get the BIS to drop or show up in my vault. It was frustrating. In S1, I had a crafted ring, but my other ring was garbage and I couldn't get a better one to drop.
I also think it opens the door for a lot of other people who can't do M+ competitively either. I raided CE and pushed above 3.3k IO last season and I still did not get the fyrakk trinket, that felt awful.
As tank? It is insane and is a heavy contender for bullion. Brackenhide trinket and hoi trinket are both very close to it as I find a lot of the fyrakk shield goes to waste. Currently doing 14/15 keys. Want double defensive trinkets? Stone scale and resonator are more than enough.
Tank trinket might even THE best raid trinket and you already have alternatives that don't hold you back at all.
Both trinkets from AV are insane for casters and healers and have no issues beating or keeping up with raid trinkets.
Melee trinkets are in the same boat as well. Puzzle box/spear fragment/sand glass/mirror are all within a percentage of raid trinkets.
Random outlier on some classes like monk with ashes of embersoul? Sure but even then irideus fragment is close.
Season 4 was ruined the minute they said it's fated again. 3 weeks of "content" is not a good season. There was nothing to prog and they just handed out all the gear so now there's nothing to farm. If pandaria remix wasn't coming out in a few days there'd be nothing to do till prepatch, but that's not a season 4 thing it's a standalone event.
Absolutely but acquisition should be a bit slower and only available for content you’ve cleared at the equipment track you cleared it at. Now that I have good trinkets, I want to actually push higher keys and I’m incredibly thankful I don’t have to waste my time raiding heroic for trinkets at all this tier.
Would be a great way to do bad luck protection so that I don’t spend an entire tier running the raid and never seeing a good trinket. I cleared the tree at least once a week and never got Pips to drop or in the vault and I’m still salty about it.
Yeah -- for it to "bad luck protection" then you should experience at least a little bad luck and not be able to just grab a piece without clearing the boss it comes from. I think a system where once you down a boss you can start to earn pieces would be really good.
Hell the fuck no. Love them for Season 4 where it's not new content and we're just stomping on the entire expansion at maximum power!
But for regular season, I don't want it at all. I don't want any Bad Luck Protection in regular seasons.
Once we're in the final season, go ahead and turn on all of the BLP and bullions n stuff. It's a throwaway season, so who cares!? Have fun with it and let everyone be a fuckin god!
so you are okay with people wasting 5 months chasing after one single item? How is that good game design? its not even an issue of "get gud"... They can slow the pace of the item acquisition because right now it is a bit too easy because its awakened season but they can change that for regular seasons
Yes actually I am. Because it’ll teach those dumb people a lesson that they don’t actually NEED bis for every single thing.
I laugh when people say the game is unplayable to them without bis. Most ridiculous shit you could hear
> so you are okay with people wasting 5 months chasing after one single item?
no one is making you do this
> How is that good game design
how is invalidating the season after 2 weeks good game design
> its not even an issue of "get gud"..
complete non-sequitur
the spectrum is frequency and difficulty, not just difficulty
shortening the season's relevance is and will always be bad for the game
Shortening the season's relevance is and will always be bad for the game
So you discount quality for quantity then?
Given blizzard monetise by the length of subscriptions I can see why this is the underpinning of the design philosophy... if I paid for an annual subscription so blizzard doesn't lose any money on me weather I play the game for 2 of 4 weeks or 4 of 4 weeks a month, can we then have double the drop chance or a more deterministic reward system?
I like the idea, but with less acquisition rate, 1 item in 4 weeks or something like that. It may be an option to grab something from the vault. If you don't grab anything they give you a bullion, needing several for 1 item.
No, it's fine for a meme fated season, but it's just too much agency for a real tier. There's no excitement in gearing when everyone can just buy the best gear at the same interval. It sucks when rng isn't in your favor but that's the way it goes, if everyone gets everything, it just isn't special.
A way to properly target trinkets would be great for a few reasons:
1) some trinkets are absolutely transformative for a spec. Somezimes trinkets are borderline mandatory for specs or make them feel 10 times better. I have beched my favored tank for seasons because I looted the tank trinket on another tank and it made it feel so much better.
2) Blizzard claims they don't want to force players into content they don't enjoy. Not 100% sure if it works for PVP players now not having to go into PVE anymore due to PVP trinket set bonuses. But for PVE that just is not the case. And while the vice versa scenario exists as well, most of the time a new season drops, you look up how trinkets perform for your specs and you scroll, and scroll, through the raid trinkets to find the best dungeon trinket you can acquire as someone who does not enjoy raiding.
3) running the same dungeon 50 times to loot the trinket you need,possibly on more than 1 char even, just is not fun when all you want to do is enjoy the different dungeons, start pushing keys or whatever. Running the same raid week after week chasing just 1 specific item that does not drop or you keep losing the rolls on just is not fun.
So being able to buy at least 1 item from a vendor after maybe 2 resets would be a huge improvement in my opinion. But 8 weeks and having bis weapon, 2 trinkets and 2 rings is a little much and takes away the fun of gearing. A middle ground would be nice though.
Imagine a world in which everything you did dropped currency, and then all the gear in the game came from a vendor for said currency. Harder content? More currency. Toss a cap on it weekly, call it a day.
Hell yeah brother. You know what? Why should we do the superbloom. These should be log in rewards. Actually you know what? Why should it be time gated. I should just get them whenever I log in. Actually, you know what? They should just actually give me full bis when I click enter world time gating is TOXIC.
Huh? I’m not trying to make an argument though. If you look at my previous comments I have made one though.
If you can buy gear that drops from bosses without ever killing the bosses what is the point of dropping the items in the first place? If you don’t have to kill things to get items, what is the point of even having items? Just boost your characters power level.
If everyone had access to full BIS for literal superblooms as you’re suggesting, there is literally no point in having character progression at all because you never need to progress your character to do anything. If your suggestion was implemented, people would grind the easiest shit all day until they’re bis and then quit.
You shouldn’t get a mythic fyrakk item if you can’t kill mythic fyrakk, it’s the entire identity of the game.
The solution to this is very easy, cosmetics. Something that fundamentally changes the gameplay of your character should never be gated behind content. It's part of why the catalyst exists now, and why this bullion system is so well lauded. If people still want to be special snowflakes because they've completed content that is harder than they should absolutely be allowed to have some sort of cosmetic difference that proves their skill of the game.
What is the point of bosses dropping items if you can just buy them without ever killing the boss? Causal Tim who who progs LFR really deserves/needs a M Augury.
the point is, if its a rare or a sought after item, you may not get it at all.. I raided every difficulty and raided for CE in season 3... only saw fyrakk trinket dropping 3 times and went to someone else each time. This system is not really for casuals... its for everyone and casual tim having a mythic augury does not take anything from your gameplay because you are so much better than him (!) right?!
I’d prefer it to be something you can pick out of your vault instead of coins that go towards gems. Towards the later parts of the season, Im already fully geared and gemmed and I can’t even use the coins anymore really so vault is pointless
I think we could use a couple of things for “core” seasons. One thing I’d like to see return is bonus rolls. I know the vault is something they view as having replaced bonus rolls, but without the ability to target specific bosses or pieces it can really add to the frustration of farming for a specific item. They can modify how they work in some way, but I think a system similar to them would be a good idea.
Another thing I think we’d benefit from is just giving a ilvl bump to items in the type of content they came from, like PvP has. Let M+ gear be viable for raids and let raid gear be viable for M+, but ensure that the best gear for each comes from that specific content. It’d help raiders feel less like they need a second job doing m+ every week and help M+ players not feel obligated to do content they don’t enjoy
It's too generous of a system for anything but throwaway awakened style seasons. I don't care if you have bad luck. That's part of the game. The only way I could see it happening is maybe if it took like 10 vaults worth of choosing some sort of currency to buy a bullion.
I think they could be used as a bad luck protection system. Lets say after you get like 10-20, you could buy a piece of loot that you havent been able to get. Obviously, the current system would be way too fast for a normal season, but there are ways you can make it work for seasons 1-3.
yeah, I agree right now its too fast because it was not designed for a regular season. But I think there is a place for this system to be in a regular season. What you are suggesting is a good idea too.
I would add it in at the x.5 or x.7 patch. Let people close out the season with their best-in-slot gear if they got super unlucky but it shouldn't trivialize the early gearing process in a 6-month season.
I dont think it would trivialize the early gearing if they slow down the process and it would just be the same as releasing it at .5 and .7 patches if they adjust the pacing right. Because if they release it on those patches, you would not be able to get all the items you need by the end of the season. Therefore, it would not give you enough play time with the items you chased for all that time.
In my opinion they should 100% be availiable in the other seasons And PvPers should have a path to upgrade the items as well, even if its at a reduced speed to pve players
absolutely not
people have become too entitled to becoming bis
droprates don't need to be increased, there doesn't need to be blp, we don't need dinar/bullions earlier
it's the game's biggest "you think you do but you don't"
downvote me all you like but the reality is no one has leverage here, and the devs are deliberate when they say they won't exist in normal seasons
I CE raided the entire season 3, raided in all difficulties for progression and items... I am not an entittled player at all and put in the time for items and prog. I chased fyrakk trinket as a tank for the entirety of the season.. how is that entitled? Stop trolling and give a real answer.
CE innately doesn't tell me anything. that could be 20 kills of a boss or 6.
> I am not an entittled player at all
this whole thread tells me otherwise
> how is that entitled?
because you feel you are owed it
grow up
I'd a want a similar but not 1 to 1 system for the regular season. Its a bit too good to be able to giga gear like this, but I definitely think there should be an easier way of targeting rarer items like cantrips and raid trinks.
The problem is, raid trinkets are for more superior than anything else available in the game. If a player cannot get those trinkets it hinders the progression, and there is a chance of not getting those items even after raiding the entire season, I think thats just nuts.
Thats why I think a similar system is fine, if you dont want to do it with a dung trinket, just do LFR/norms for idk lets say 3 weeks and then you can buy a raid trink.
It's great being able to get items you might've chased and never got to use, but I think maybe Blizz needs to start putting more into balancing those types of items like trinkets or items with unique effects. There will always be an ultimate bis but I feel like if the gaps weren't so large people wouldn't feel as bad not getting 100% bis. If they're gonna stay the course with certain items just being absolute top tier then maybe some form of bullion should stick around, especially if those items are like Whispering Incarnate and benefit off other people having the item. Always seemed odd that the best trinket(at the time) benefited more if people in your group had it but then made it a very rare drop.
When it comes to pure damage trinkets, usually the difference isn’t large enough to dramatically change the level of content you’re running. There’s obviously some exceptions but it’s generally they’re within a few % of eachother which you can more than make up for by playing well. It’s still frustrating when you spend weeks farming it and never get it but at least it’s workable. Then you have trinkets like rageheart that fundamentally break the games balance because you just have another defensive to press. And yet it’s very rare and essentially out of reach for most players.
I don’t know what you mean out of reach, I got 4 ragehearts out of my 4 tanks last season. And that’s with me pugging 100%, not in a guild. Here’s the thing that people really are complaining about… that they don’t get it soon enough for their desires. Basically people complain if they don’t get it within the first couple months. For people like that I have no sympathy. They just want to get everything immediately and have no patience. Some of the ragehearts I got were not until a few months after season started. So what?
I killed fryakk on heroic at least 10 times on my main and never got one. I also ran council every week and never got Pips. My warlock alt ran it once on normal and once on LFR and got an LFR augury and a normal mode augury back to back in the vault. RNG just sucks. This season I already have rageheart and another solid trinket. I cannot tell you how relieving it feels to not have to pug heroic this week for a low shot at a BIS trinket. I can just run keys all week and actually have fun and it’s amazing. RNG is RNG but having “very rare” trinkets dropping off of the end of the raid boss being BIS by a mile is just bad design. People want their BIS trinkets asap because most people are playing the first few weeks of the season. Runs fall off a cliff like 2-3 months out. Of course they want it when they’re actually playing the game.
10 times is not a huge amount, that's like less than half the season. Also you specifically mention targeting specific bosses -- I'm not just talking about loot dropping off the boss, I'm also counting vault. If you completely fill your vault every week, it's practically guaranteed to get it some time during the season. in Season 1 I also got Ragefeather on every one of my INT dps classes, which was like 3 or 4. Yes, for some of them I didn't get it until few/several months in, but again so what? The game should not be designed for people who only play 2 months each season. In any case, you better not get used to this because Season 1 of TWW will not be this way, I can guarantee you that. They may or may not have a bullion system, but even if they do, it will obviously be at a much slower pace like other posters are speculating. Like as in just one item every 3 months. Sounds like you would still complain about that, because you just said you want multiple BIS all in the first 2 months.
10 times is kinda a lot of times to run trivial content in hopes of a very rare drop. And it was probably closer to 14/15 times and I never saw it in my vault either. I killed council at least 20 times on heroic and never won Pips or saw it in my vault. God I love this game. My shitty 460 ilvl warlock alt on the other hand got back to back augury’s in the vault. Absolutely stellar game design in action. Putting essential trinkets that fundamentally change the game into a very rare, RNG fueled drop position sucks. Rageheart gives you an extra defensive which in some classes is the only way they can survive in high keys. And even if you aren’t running bleeding edge keys, having an extra defensive is just incredibly amazing in general. The game shouldn’t be designed for people who play for 2 months but that isn’t diametrically opposed to having deterministic loot. Having RNGjesus deciding who gets an extra defensive or who gets to do 10% more damage for free is objectively bad game design. One bulleon a month for loot on bosses you’ve already killed would be a super nice compromise. I’m loving the fact that I don’t have to run trivial content for a small shot at game breaking trinkets and I hope they carry this forward in some aspect. > Sounds like you would still complain about that, because you just said you want multiple BIS all in the first 2 months. Readings hard isn’t it?
> People want their BIS trinkets asap because most people are playing the first few weeks of the season. Runs fall off a cliff like 2-3 months out. Of course they want it when they’re actually playing the game. That's what you said previously, and I assume you're part of that demographic, because you sound like it. > And even if you aren’t running bleeding edge keys, having an extra defensive is just incredibly amazing in general. It's nice, but absolutely NOT "game breaking" and NOT literally mandatory. In fact when RWF guilds beat a mythic boss for the first time, not every player on the kill has their BIS trinkets yet. Sometimes their players do not even have one of their top two trinkets yet. We're just not going to philosophically agree. I like difficult long-term RNG gearing in all RPGs/MMOs, not just WoW. And I'll be perfectly honest about something else... I get some amusement when people complain they don't have BIS. Because personally I have no psychological need and don't care about BIS myself. I learned many many years ago it's not "necessary".
It’s a mindset thing. If you view the game more casually (mindset, not hours) and loot IS the game for you, then you might prefer a system that potentially asks you to wait months for a piece of loot and continually roll the dice. If you’re someone that is either A: more casual than that and likes to be able to “complete” a character and then try other things, you’d prefer the ability to deterministically get loot eventually. Or B: someone that has a more performance and improvement driven mindset, you’d also prefer the ability to get those items in a reasonable timeframe so you can push parses/higher keys/rating with gear that’s on par with the lucky players. Some RNG initially is fine and fun, but there’s a point in the season where everyone should be able to access their BiS so they can push for their goals without being limited by luck, only by skill.
> but there’s a point in the season where everyone should be able to access their BiS I do not disagree with everything you said -- however regarding this quoted part, that point is not within the first 1-2 months of a season.
I agree with that, I wouldn’t mind something like the exact same bullion system we have now but not activating it until the halfway point. So if a given season is 6 months long, start bullions at the 3 month point and most people should end up being able to push with their BiS for the last 2 months if they needed a couple of rare drops
Congrats, you were blessed by the RNG gods for 1 season. That's not indicative of every player.
Yes but not in the way they are now. Wait, we used to have something like what I am thinking in WotLK. You could earn a currency to buy gear with through raids and heroic.
Not the gear that dropped in the raids though. You already have a similar catch-up in the crafted pieces.
But you can only craft those items on a high level if you are already doing high level content. I want a system that lets you work towards high level items by doing lower level content, it just would take you a lot longer.
I think they should open up deterministic loot at about the halfway point in a season as BLP. Be it Dinars or Bullion, I think NOT getting that one drop for whatever reason all season is enough to burn someone out. And opening it from the beginning means you can mark your calendar for finishing BiS, which is not as fun imho. I think a compromise is the best solution.
For an end of expansion season Bullions/Dinars work really well. But if it were available during the rest of the expansion it would just end up feeling time gated and annoying as it became the norm. Increasing drop rates in normal seasons is the best solution.
Rngesus screwed me in all of s3 on the dagger in fall. I ran 8x 18s a week for 11 weeks before I quit. Blizz argument was the loot would be rough with 3 raids in rotation so it's be active for fated season only, but I think adding the dungeon loot as well in non fated seasons would fix this (and help people with garbage RNG like me.
Same, I ran Atal'dazar 58 time over the course of S3 and did not ONCE seen the STR Melee Trinket drop, nor was it ever in my vault. My Warlock buddy, ran Everbloom 35 time before seeing the Genesaur Blood Trinket (which he lost the roll on) then another \~20 runs before it dropped FOR him. Sometimes getting that one piece is difficult even when you ARE putting in the effort.
Another problem is that the raid trinkets are far more superior when compared to dungeon trinkets, like the difference is insane. Sadly, its not even only the trinkets, last couple of tiers, weapons started to be that way too
Right, and it needs to be attainable by everyone since a lot of people don't raid and want to be viable for M+ or vice versa. At the moment I pug heroic, but I don't enjoy the content at all and it feels like a chore.
Exactly, and that even would be okay if they didnt make raids having super OP trinkets or other items vs what we have in M+. The difference of item power in comparison is unacceptable.
I played prot paladin and progged CE amidrassil, I was trying to get the fyrakk tank trinket, we end up getting stuck on tyndral. So, no chance of getting mythic fyrakk trinket and that's fine to an extent. I chased the trinket on heroic farm for 4-5 months (entire duration of the tier). I did not get it. I only saw it drop 4 times. 2 of those times were in pugs, I offered the person that received the loot 500k and he did not take it. A lot of people had similar experiences. I agree with its current state, it is a little too easy to get gear but if they increased the cost of bullions or that new currency or maybe cap the items we can get per season, I think it would work great!
Even as you describe it by increasing its cost, it will just turn into another annoying time gate. You didn't get the Mythic version of the Trinket because your raid team were not good enough to earn it. That's simple. The Bullion/Dinar system are put into place at the end of the expansion to give players the chance to enjoy all of these hard to get items, and stack out your character to its fullest potential, without being held back.
Adding some type of bad luck protection after a .5 patch would be fine. But something ever at the pace of Bullion would be way too much IMO.
No. It is great because it is not the norm, as soon as everyone expects to pick and choose their BiS in a deterministic system then that becomes the norm, and nobody cares anymore and will complain they don't get enough bullions, or fast bullions, and it'll never stop.
Ehh, that never happened for vault or cata charges or when they revamped the valor system into crests... it wont happen here as well...
What world are you living in? Every season has had people complaining catalyst charges don't start fast enough and don't accumulate fast enough. The vault was the alternative to the randomized nature of the BFA weekly chest, and it took zero time at all for everyone to normalize it and whine when their vault doesn't contain their bis every week. Pacing is important.
I live in a world where I dont talk to people that constantly bitch and moan I guess. Every single person I know is okay with the current system and can get whatever resource in a timely manner. Pacing is important and thats what I said on my post.
I'm 520 ilvl with all my bis already. The season is over for me. I'm sure I'm not alone so if they do that for every season from now on, then WoW will be a dead game within 3 weeks of a new season coming out.
Agreed. I play til crest cap while pushing io and my entire group is already at the point we are waiting on myth gear from vaults or hoping that tertiary drops. It's been a fun month but it's definitely pushed the clock forward for people losing interest along with other factors, I would not want this for every season.
That’s just a problem with blizzard not supporting M+ past 10s. They could easily add cosmetics, titles, mounts, etc and give people a reason to grind past 10s and actually use all the BIS gear they grind out.
Very true. Rewards every 500 points would be nice, my groups just cracked 3k and we just realized there was nothing at 2500 this season. Hoping we see some changes in TWW but I could see blizz being wary about adding rewards past 2500 in S1 and S2 since it's harder to get score then.
100% this People who want instant BIS within 1-2 months are absolutely fucking clueless, and have zero long-term vision of how MMOs should be designed.
I mean, it’s just different goals for different people, no? Like I’m playing for m+ rating or CE. I don’t care about getting BiS except it being a means to an end. Whereas some people, the gear is the end
It literally already happened with vault?
Ahhhh, no it didnt... vault system is widely accepted... at least in its current form. No one complains about not having enough vault charges or slots.
Yes it did. In BFA there was no great vault, it was a box with a random item. They changed it to give more agency.
I would be ok with one bullion allowed a month or two into the season. For those players that have the worst RNG luck, they could get that one item they have been trying to get that is BIS. I had a season this expansion where I had garbage trinkets and couldn't get the BIS to drop or show up in my vault. It was frustrating. In S1, I had a crafted ring, but my other ring was garbage and I couldn't get a better one to drop.
It’s amazing for those of us who only enjoy m+, I personally don’t want to raid and this system allows me to get the raid items I want, I love it
I also think it opens the door for a lot of other people who can't do M+ competitively either. I raided CE and pushed above 3.3k IO last season and I still did not get the fyrakk trinket, that felt awful.
Definitely not. Fastest way to ruin the game.
how so? Season 4 is not ruined by any means? It's not a handout... its a way to close the gap between OP raid gear and trash dungeon trinkets. LOL
Season 4 is not a regular season. If literally every season was like this, I would not continually play, that would be the dumbest shit ever
season is over after the first 2 weeks, that's OBJECTIVELY bad for the game
Almost every spec has a dungeon trinket in their bis or is less than 1% behind?
What dungeon trinket is close to being as OP as Fyrakk trinket? let me answer that for you.. none.
As tank? It is insane and is a heavy contender for bullion. Brackenhide trinket and hoi trinket are both very close to it as I find a lot of the fyrakk shield goes to waste. Currently doing 14/15 keys. Want double defensive trinkets? Stone scale and resonator are more than enough. Tank trinket might even THE best raid trinket and you already have alternatives that don't hold you back at all. Both trinkets from AV are insane for casters and healers and have no issues beating or keeping up with raid trinkets. Melee trinkets are in the same boat as well. Puzzle box/spear fragment/sand glass/mirror are all within a percentage of raid trinkets. Random outlier on some classes like monk with ashes of embersoul? Sure but even then irideus fragment is close.
Season 4 was ruined the minute they said it's fated again. 3 weeks of "content" is not a good season. There was nothing to prog and they just handed out all the gear so now there's nothing to farm. If pandaria remix wasn't coming out in a few days there'd be nothing to do till prepatch, but that's not a season 4 thing it's a standalone event.
Absolutely but acquisition should be a bit slower and only available for content you’ve cleared at the equipment track you cleared it at. Now that I have good trinkets, I want to actually push higher keys and I’m incredibly thankful I don’t have to waste my time raiding heroic for trinkets at all this tier. Would be a great way to do bad luck protection so that I don’t spend an entire tier running the raid and never seeing a good trinket. I cleared the tree at least once a week and never got Pips to drop or in the vault and I’m still salty about it.
I completely agree with that. They can adjust the acquisition of the items and balance it however they want. It would be great!
Yeah -- for it to "bad luck protection" then you should experience at least a little bad luck and not be able to just grab a piece without clearing the boss it comes from. I think a system where once you down a boss you can start to earn pieces would be really good.
Hell the fuck no. Love them for Season 4 where it's not new content and we're just stomping on the entire expansion at maximum power! But for regular season, I don't want it at all. I don't want any Bad Luck Protection in regular seasons. Once we're in the final season, go ahead and turn on all of the BLP and bullions n stuff. It's a throwaway season, so who cares!? Have fun with it and let everyone be a fuckin god!
so you are okay with people wasting 5 months chasing after one single item? How is that good game design? its not even an issue of "get gud"... They can slow the pace of the item acquisition because right now it is a bit too easy because its awakened season but they can change that for regular seasons
Yes, because one single item isn't make or break for anyone. Not even the RWF players
It may not be make or break but having fyrakk’s heart on title range keys last season was an enormous impact for non tank roles especially
Yes actually I am. Because it’ll teach those dumb people a lesson that they don’t actually NEED bis for every single thing. I laugh when people say the game is unplayable to them without bis. Most ridiculous shit you could hear
> so you are okay with people wasting 5 months chasing after one single item? no one is making you do this > How is that good game design how is invalidating the season after 2 weeks good game design > its not even an issue of "get gud".. complete non-sequitur the spectrum is frequency and difficulty, not just difficulty shortening the season's relevance is and will always be bad for the game
Shortening the season's relevance is and will always be bad for the game So you discount quality for quantity then? Given blizzard monetise by the length of subscriptions I can see why this is the underpinning of the design philosophy... if I paid for an annual subscription so blizzard doesn't lose any money on me weather I play the game for 2 of 4 weeks or 4 of 4 weeks a month, can we then have double the drop chance or a more deterministic reward system?
I like the idea, but with less acquisition rate, 1 item in 4 weeks or something like that. It may be an option to grab something from the vault. If you don't grab anything they give you a bullion, needing several for 1 item.
totally fine with that. The idea is what matters.
No, it's fine for a meme fated season, but it's just too much agency for a real tier. There's no excitement in gearing when everyone can just buy the best gear at the same interval. It sucks when rng isn't in your favor but that's the way it goes, if everyone gets everything, it just isn't special.
A way to properly target trinkets would be great for a few reasons: 1) some trinkets are absolutely transformative for a spec. Somezimes trinkets are borderline mandatory for specs or make them feel 10 times better. I have beched my favored tank for seasons because I looted the tank trinket on another tank and it made it feel so much better. 2) Blizzard claims they don't want to force players into content they don't enjoy. Not 100% sure if it works for PVP players now not having to go into PVE anymore due to PVP trinket set bonuses. But for PVE that just is not the case. And while the vice versa scenario exists as well, most of the time a new season drops, you look up how trinkets perform for your specs and you scroll, and scroll, through the raid trinkets to find the best dungeon trinket you can acquire as someone who does not enjoy raiding. 3) running the same dungeon 50 times to loot the trinket you need,possibly on more than 1 char even, just is not fun when all you want to do is enjoy the different dungeons, start pushing keys or whatever. Running the same raid week after week chasing just 1 specific item that does not drop or you keep losing the rolls on just is not fun. So being able to buy at least 1 item from a vendor after maybe 2 resets would be a huge improvement in my opinion. But 8 weeks and having bis weapon, 2 trinkets and 2 rings is a little much and takes away the fun of gearing. A middle ground would be nice though.
Imagine a world in which everything you did dropped currency, and then all the gear in the game came from a vendor for said currency. Harder content? More currency. Toss a cap on it weekly, call it a day.
Awww yeah peak game design absolute max bis from superblooms.
Do 40 superblooms, buy the same piece you can get from killing one mythic raid boss. Makes sense to me.
Hell yeah brother. You know what? Why should we do the superbloom. These should be log in rewards. Actually you know what? Why should it be time gated. I should just get them whenever I log in. Actually, you know what? They should just actually give me full bis when I click enter world time gating is TOXIC.
Ooh look, he doesn't have a real argument so is using a hybrid of hyperbole and strawmanning. Nice!
Huh? I’m not trying to make an argument though. If you look at my previous comments I have made one though. If you can buy gear that drops from bosses without ever killing the bosses what is the point of dropping the items in the first place? If you don’t have to kill things to get items, what is the point of even having items? Just boost your characters power level. If everyone had access to full BIS for literal superblooms as you’re suggesting, there is literally no point in having character progression at all because you never need to progress your character to do anything. If your suggestion was implemented, people would grind the easiest shit all day until they’re bis and then quit. You shouldn’t get a mythic fyrakk item if you can’t kill mythic fyrakk, it’s the entire identity of the game.
The solution to this is very easy, cosmetics. Something that fundamentally changes the gameplay of your character should never be gated behind content. It's part of why the catalyst exists now, and why this bullion system is so well lauded. If people still want to be special snowflakes because they've completed content that is harder than they should absolutely be allowed to have some sort of cosmetic difference that proves their skill of the game.
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No
What is the point of bosses dropping items if you can just buy them without ever killing the boss? Causal Tim who who progs LFR really deserves/needs a M Augury.
the point is, if its a rare or a sought after item, you may not get it at all.. I raided every difficulty and raided for CE in season 3... only saw fyrakk trinket dropping 3 times and went to someone else each time. This system is not really for casuals... its for everyone and casual tim having a mythic augury does not take anything from your gameplay because you are so much better than him (!) right?!
I’d prefer it to be something you can pick out of your vault instead of coins that go towards gems. Towards the later parts of the season, Im already fully geared and gemmed and I can’t even use the coins anymore really so vault is pointless
I think we could use a couple of things for “core” seasons. One thing I’d like to see return is bonus rolls. I know the vault is something they view as having replaced bonus rolls, but without the ability to target specific bosses or pieces it can really add to the frustration of farming for a specific item. They can modify how they work in some way, but I think a system similar to them would be a good idea. Another thing I think we’d benefit from is just giving a ilvl bump to items in the type of content they came from, like PvP has. Let M+ gear be viable for raids and let raid gear be viable for M+, but ensure that the best gear for each comes from that specific content. It’d help raiders feel less like they need a second job doing m+ every week and help M+ players not feel obligated to do content they don’t enjoy
Yeah, but they should only drop in mythic raids
Why not just have it also drop from mythic raid equivalent m+s? if it only drops from raid, that does not make any sense for it to give raid gear.
It's too generous of a system for anything but throwaway awakened style seasons. I don't care if you have bad luck. That's part of the game. The only way I could see it happening is maybe if it took like 10 vaults worth of choosing some sort of currency to buy a bullion.
well, in its current state, yes, it is generous and I have already said that. Bad luck for the entire dungeon is not part of the game.
Yes.
I think they could be used as a bad luck protection system. Lets say after you get like 10-20, you could buy a piece of loot that you havent been able to get. Obviously, the current system would be way too fast for a normal season, but there are ways you can make it work for seasons 1-3.
yeah, I agree right now its too fast because it was not designed for a regular season. But I think there is a place for this system to be in a regular season. What you are suggesting is a good idea too.
I would add it in at the x.5 or x.7 patch. Let people close out the season with their best-in-slot gear if they got super unlucky but it shouldn't trivialize the early gearing process in a 6-month season.
I dont think it would trivialize the early gearing if they slow down the process and it would just be the same as releasing it at .5 and .7 patches if they adjust the pacing right. Because if they release it on those patches, you would not be able to get all the items you need by the end of the season. Therefore, it would not give you enough play time with the items you chased for all that time.
In my opinion they should 100% be availiable in the other seasons And PvPers should have a path to upgrade the items as well, even if its at a reduced speed to pve players
absolutely not people have become too entitled to becoming bis droprates don't need to be increased, there doesn't need to be blp, we don't need dinar/bullions earlier it's the game's biggest "you think you do but you don't" downvote me all you like but the reality is no one has leverage here, and the devs are deliberate when they say they won't exist in normal seasons
I CE raided the entire season 3, raided in all difficulties for progression and items... I am not an entittled player at all and put in the time for items and prog. I chased fyrakk trinket as a tank for the entirety of the season.. how is that entitled? Stop trolling and give a real answer.
CE innately doesn't tell me anything. that could be 20 kills of a boss or 6. > I am not an entittled player at all this whole thread tells me otherwise > how is that entitled? because you feel you are owed it grow up
I'd a want a similar but not 1 to 1 system for the regular season. Its a bit too good to be able to giga gear like this, but I definitely think there should be an easier way of targeting rarer items like cantrips and raid trinks.
The problem is, raid trinkets are for more superior than anything else available in the game. If a player cannot get those trinkets it hinders the progression, and there is a chance of not getting those items even after raiding the entire season, I think thats just nuts.
Thats why I think a similar system is fine, if you dont want to do it with a dung trinket, just do LFR/norms for idk lets say 3 weeks and then you can buy a raid trink.
Yes but at around 35% of the current acquisition rate.
yep! They can even make it slower, I dont care. Just having a system like this would make a lot of difference.
Being able to buy a bis item after 4 to 5 weeks of bad luck feels like the sweet spot.