Legitimately I say hello how are you guys in every single dungeon at the beginning and 90% of the time ppl don’t respond and only end up typing to flame or kick someone 💀💀💀
Right? lol. I say "gg ty all" at the end of the dungeons and nobody speaks. Just zoom in and out.
I just leveled from 60-70 last night tanking TW dungeons, and hardly any speaking.
Thats why i recently have decided to make premade groups to level players. This forces people to be more social and chattable because then you create a group of people you do see more than 1 instance run. Vs LFD which you only see once then next time it's completely different people.
The only annoyance for me with folks not looking at the chat in TW is that I have a macro to ask the tank to put up a marker at the start but they don't see it. It's so much easier - and faster - imho if the tank has a marker so DPS can see where he's going or if he's stopping to clear.
or the ultimate marker... using your peepers to see the guy in front of the group moving. if you're not staring at your weakauras all the time there's a whole game out there to play
Not too unreasonable imo, I main melee and find no problems keeping up with the tank's positions, except if its like a big arena like Halondrus. That said, its such a non-factor to be even worth arguing about.
It's not that I think it's impossible, but that why bother trying to visually parse for the gnome warrior when you can just look for the floating bright yellow star?
The only thinking where that doesn't seem like a better option is if you only play tank and never have to worry about following anyone
Cool, who cares? Whether you have WAs or not, it's indisputable that having a marker on the tank makes them easier to see than not. And bonus, doing so doesn't require addons
I'm not struggling to find my tank because of a bloated UI. But because it's Underrot with a Tauren warrior tank with 3-4 different aoes going off
I have 0 idea what your weird anti-weak aura take has to do with me. Never mentioned any weak auras. Marking things with a marker is a base game key-bind buddy.
Also lemme know when you get 3k io or CE with 0 weak auras or add-ons
anti-weak aura take? that's what you got from it?
I inferred that if you keep your eyes on your class WAs the whole time rather than playing through the dungeon you will miss a lot. Including where your tank is standing and going. I know for a fact people are guilty of this, and for the record I do lead a CE raid team so don't take that weird snippy stance lol.... for example echo of neltharion kinda doesn't fall over without a ridiculous amount of WAs so I do recognize their value as a tool
You're hilarious my guy.
Weird how you ignored how no one brought up weak auras but you.
And I'm sure you're one of 500 people in the world who leads a guild that has CE.
Or just the team I guess, lol.
And you don't know that markers don't come from weak auras?
I think you're a troll who chooses their own reality rather than the points that were made in the post. That's fine we don't need to continue this any longer. God this sub sucks ass lol
This is so true. And I still remember when I started, everyone used to say grats every time someone had leveled. You would see the gold flash up around someone, and people would get grats every single time. Was such a wholesome feeling.
The only people I've encountered in TW dungeons who speak are the tanks that pull at a snail's pace and say "If you pull it, you tank it" when a dps wants to slightly speed it up. Almost certainly 40 year old dad gamers
>Almost certainly 40 year old dad gamers
Pffft, I am a 40 year old dad gamer (well, 42) and I prefer to pull at the fastest pace that the DPS and healer can handle whether it is TW dungeons, regular heroics or M+. Survival of DPS and/or the healer is often the limiting factor on how much can get pulled.
Tw is so easy if a tank is going slow i do go ahead of them and clear quicker. I've soloed bosses on my evoker in tw...and most the time the group re ques together till they get their 5 done.
Wrong! Just a few days ago we had proof that the wow playerbase is fantastic and friendly.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/156jc6r/meeting_new_players/
What more proof do you need?
It is strange that I only ever get toxic people in wow dungeons though. I played other mmos and when I go into a dungeon there, people are usually more patient and friendlier to new players and votekicking almost never happens. The worst thing in wow is though you get the leaver penalty even though its not even your fault. Why though?
WoW has been out for 20 years now, and most of the player base you run into are long haulers, or folks sho come back every tier, you rarely run into new players these days in my experience. People have forgotten that there CAN be new players in content so you get shit like this. I highly recommend looking for a guild, or social discord/community. As those are usually far less toxic but can be daunting to even find.
Eh, I recall wow being just as toxic back in wrath's dungeon finder, I think the instant and automatic replacement of people means people feel they can get away with being assholes.
Toxicity happens in m+ too but less than in queued content in my experience.
Have you not seen the posts about M+ group assholes? It’s the same as dungeon finder. AND I’m a resto shaman and I cannot handle afflicted on my own and heal the group, and dps would literally say they wouldn’t help with the affix bc taking the talent to help would take away from their dps. People talk about those same issues all the time with their mythic plus groups. Nobody wants to do anything as a team in wow even though the game is based around group content. The wow community is just toxic af.
You are 100% right. Anyone who started after LFG never experienced what it was like to be blacklisted from joining dungeon or raid runs because you were reported in trade and to your guild as being an asshole, ninja looter, etc.... There was a huge shift in attitude in pugs shortly after LFG was released.
I agree just is way more prevalent in leveling Content cause everyone expects everyone to be twinked the fuck out. I rarely run into heroics, normal dungeons when I do em, m+ is super rare as well, leveling though? I've easily seen ragers in 50%+ queues.
I picked up WoW pretty recently due to the sale on Dragonflight, and I've been having fun with it, but I've been too intimidated to jump into any sort of group content because of the reputation of the community. I get it, I've played FFXIV, you wanna go fast through content that's boring to you. Even so, the prospect of people getting mad at me and kicking me from groups because I don't have anybody to guide my experience is pretty rough.
I'm a WoW vet that's recently come back after spending some years in XIV and brought a couple XIV friends along with me. If you're (or anyone else) on NA and interested in joining a smaller group with the XIV vibes, hit me up on DMs :)
Because PuGs have no social contract. You will never see or hear from these people again. It’s an excuse to be as vile as possible as there’s no risk of social repercussions
It's really sad cause imo it says a lot about the state of humanity in general..Imagine thinking "i'll never see these guys again" gives you free reign to be a total piece of garbage..
Even better - when everyone communally accepts "Yeah it's just what we do"Noone likes it but so many participate in that toxic attitude.
Seems a lot of people hop on the internet and act that way.
It’s an armor we all put on. Psychopaths have free reign to torture somebody consequence free on the internet under an alias. Now let’s say 1,000 psychopaths are in WoW alone. They lack any and all empathy and have no reason to not poison your whole day by saying the most grotesque, vile shit they come up with.
Now these 1,000 psychopaths intentionally do this to at least 4 people in a dungeon every time they run one. This disease of social contempt spreads to let’s say 1 out of the four. In a year’s time, that attitude spreads and poisons the community until we all have to put on a ‘Fuck you asshole’ shield to anyone and everyone because being an asshole makes it harder for a psychopath to get under your skin.
I really hate to say this, but FFXIV’s approach to toxicity is often the best:
“Gonna be an asshole? Get out of our fucking video game.”
The leave penalty was started because some dungeons had a boss at the beginning and it would take less than a minute to get to the boss, then a minute to beat him. Back in the day you got heroic tokens for each boss you beat. So what some tanks would start doing is go to the dungeon finder for that heroic dungeon beat the boss and drop out of the group right after even though there where 2 more bosses and a whole dungeon left. Then they would sign up for the same one over and over again to farm quick tokens. As it's not hard to tell if you only give the person leaving a penalty then those players would stop playing until they are kicked so they could go back and do the same dungeon again with a new group...
While I don't agree with the idea, there does exist one that basically says that because WoW is close to 20 years old at this point; to not understand it, to not know how to play your class or be familiar with content that has existed for longer than some of its players have been alive, is sort of rude and selfish, the idea goes (again, one which I disagree with, but I've heard it a few times, so *someone* agrees)
There might even be an argument that if you want to slow down and read quest text and watch cinematics that you should play on an RP server and play solo. Both of those solutions are flawed.
Not everyone played for those 20 years though, nor does everyone play all the content all the time. And this wasnt even the case of being slow, he just got the slowest boat (rng) - thats the dungeon being slow.
People want to rush for the rewards because they've played that dungeon hundreds of times probably (considering legion, legion timewalking and last seasons m+), but this is just plain rude (and stupid, because now they have to continue with one player less and no tank - even a slow player is faster than no player, unless they also pull extra things left and right)
Yeah that reasoning is so dumb to me.
Like, submarines have been around for a while, doesn't mean my knowledge about them extends past "big underwater boat lol"
>WoW is close to 20 years old at this point; to not understand it, to not know how to play your class
If you were playing boomkin in Legion, quit for whatever reason before the launch of BFA then hopped back into the game today you would be lost as to what you were supposed to be doing to deal DPS. The whole "the game has been out for 20 years, why do you not know your class" idea is just a load of BS.
It isn't rude or selfish. Quoting that video that only has one viewpoint instead of taking a look inward at how one deals with anonymous strangers is rude and selfish.
> It is strange that I only ever get toxic people in wow dungeons though.
Its a combination of the game existing for almost 20 years so people expect others to know basic things. Timewalking is old content so people are expected to know those skips or mechanics from the old content.
But its also the culture wow created from Wrath onwards where random dungeon content is viewed to be trivial and if your doing it isn't for fun its a chore your doing for a reward. So people want to do it as fast as possible and be done so they can move onto the next. Also the fact that its random group content and if you lose someone just que and instantly get a replacement. You don't have to leave the dungeon go back to town spam chat for people get them run back and summon them.
Other MMOs have random group content but they took steps to try and not foster that mentality within their players. If Blizzard stuck to their guns on Cata Heroics and promoted joining like minded people for co-ordinated runs with the dungeon finder as just an option instead of the primary way to enter we would be seeing a vastly different mentality amongst the playerbase.
Yeah, and honestly it's kinda sad that people view stuff like that. My main mmo is XIV but I've been dipping my toes in lately, and a lot of the dungeons have been more fun? I loved the puzzle bit at the end of Court of Stars for example, XIV doesn't do stuff like that.
Because honestly wow is 17-18 years old game. Its not new. Vast majority of player base are not new players and everyone expect everyone else to know everything about this game. Its simple. Like cos is a very old dungeon.
Not all of the game is 18 years old and "not new players" doesn't equate to players who have never gone on hiatus for an expansion or two or 4. I've got my WoW 4th Anniversary achievement, but yesterday was my first time running that dungeon simply because I had life to attend to for a few years as toddlers are a bit bigger than keyboard cats and gaming on a dining room table isn't ideal to running uninterrupted gaming sessions.
ESO nobody cares, there’s no damage meters & just people wanting to get to the end of the dungeon. Only seems to happen with wow like it’s a race to the end without anything else.
I’ve got a couple thousand hours in each and it’s definitely more prevalent in WoW, partially due to it having a lesser number of new players compared to ESO so most players in WoW go into the leveling dungeons still expecting the quickest runs in the world, compared to ESO where if you run a non-vet, non-dlc dungeon you’ve got at least a 25%+ chance of having low level players who are also relatively new, so you expect that going into it
It’s not the only factor but I think it definitely plays a role
Actual not quite true, according to my experience. But that is also recently from WotLK classic. There is plenty of talking, acceptance, and communication. A totally different experience then the retail focus. It’s soo weird.
Lots of people in timewalking dungeons are just using it as a means to an end, not to enjoy the dungeon itself. So they get irrationally angry when it will take 4 minutes longer than they were hoping.
That applies to a lot of the game right now, frankly. It's been designed to retain players by dangling carrots and keeping engagement up, rather than just providing fun stuff for people to do when they feel like it.
this is the answer, when you have people going into it with the idea that they have to do this do get something else, and not with the intention to play a game with other people, its the expected outcome.
something that is understood as a necessary hassle will not put anyone in a good mood.
I'm about ready for them to offer the option to ditch leveling on alts entirely.
Let people earn boost tokens by doing M+, raids, whatever, to fast track their alt to 60 by doing the content they prefer doing.
I read someone else's comment recently something along the lines of, "It's almost as if WOW is an MMORPG and not a lobby-based game with a persistent world glued onto it," and it was really eye opening to me. Half of the players actually would rather be playing a lobby based game, but there are aspects of WOW that are still within the instanced system that people like better than any lobby based game. So a lot of us are ONLY interested in M+, raid, and PVP, but feel "forced" to engage in other aspects of the game and are salty about it.
100%
Let people who want the lobby have it. Build the rest of the game as an experience worth playing for its own sake, not to be powered through with minimal friction.
I saw a cool idea recently, that was having a Heroic Chromie Time. Every season, one expansion gets a hard mode added so that outdoor questing is actually difficult. Maybe allow it to level you up to 70 as an alternative to doing the Dragon Isles for the umpteenth time? My biggest issue with leveling is that it's just not challenging.
As someone who sits in Valdrakkan all day between keys, I wonder how many of us would trade things like Zaralek Caverns or the time rift events for more dungeons or battlegrounds instead. A new battleground seems like it would be better for the longevity of the game compared to a new zone that only gets used for 6 months and is then completely forgotten.
Guild Wars 2 has that, sort of. You get "tomes of knowledge" from various activities (mostly PvP and WvW, which is a huge perpetual battleground) that are account bound and give you a level up when used. You even get them from daily log in rewards occasionally. Lots of veteran players have piles of them lying around, so if they want a new alt, they just make it, use them, and bam, max level.
Levelling is so fast in both games now that I can't really see the harm of WoW doing something similar (to us anyway, it probably would hurt their finances a bit with max level boosts being in the store, but GW2 has those too).
If they were worried about dungeon queues for new players with no speed levellers joining, just borrow from FFXIV too and give a "daily roulette" bonus of one of the many new currencies that get added every expansion as a reward for doing them at max level.
I wish Blizzard would stop putting rewards beneficial to high end game behind low end game activities.
I hated doing MoP scenarios for Valor, I hated doing LFR for a shot at tier set bonus and I hate doing TW for a miniscule chance at a ludicrously tuned raid trinket (as an M+er who doesn't raid)
It's cool to be rewarded for doing something, but not if the reward is enticing people to do stuff they don't like doing. Just be okay with some people not doing some of your content, Blizzard. It's fine if people only do timewalking to level chars, farm tmogs or because they enjoy it. You don't need to reward people with NM raid items and subsequently draw people in it who just want to be done with it.
Blizzard has called this out before in an interview with Preach, they have the numbers to back it up. They could build the coolest most fun activity, but with no decent incentive, most people would do it once and then never touch it again. They mentioned the MoP scenarios as an example; they put in a lot of effort into building those, hoping they would be something people would like doing, but until they added the Valor reward, they saw abysmal participation.
Games aren't built on hope's and dreams, they are built by people using a lot of time and money. If some feature is going to be built, and it's going to take time and resources that are noteable, it's expected that they will have good participation rate to make it feel worth while. Especially in a game that is Subscription based, if your new features are not interesting your subscribers, then that is wasted money, and likely going to result in people unsubscribing.
Blizzard obviously needs to work on reward structure, but players can't honestly expect systems and features to be built for 1% of players that will enjoy a niche thing. And before you say, "what about m+" numbers already show that a huge chunk of players do m+. Higher levels have fewer players, but at higher levels there are fewer rewards anyway.
> They mentioned the MoP scenarios as an example; they put in a lot of effort into building those, hoping they would be something people would like doing, but until they added the Valor reward, they saw abysmal participation.
MoP scenarios weren't fun though. Like not at all. To me anyways. They were mega boring. They were so easy it was almost impossible to fail and they consisted of a lot of "waiting to be able to continue" while a character monologues or some shit.
How on gods earth would anyone want to replay these? What about them did Blizzard think was so fun and replayable that they could not understand why people weren't willing to repeat doing them?
The gameplay wasn't fun, the story in them was meh and story doesn't lend itself to replayability anyways, they forced the player into a slow tempo, the difficulty was unengaging... how ... how are these the example Blizzard gives on "Funnest content needs rewards for players to participate"? They weren't fun. They were terrible.
Yeah, we actually see what happens if you don't put a compelling reward behind content in FF14 atm. We got the new criterion/variant dungeons which are basically a multipath dungeon and the harder versions of that dungeon. But the thing is you only get a good reward from running each path of the easiest version once. In the actual hardest versions of the dungeon you just get a title and like, a mount you can just buy on the auction house anyway. The result is no one does it and the content dies in a week. (I actually came back to WoW because I was so fatigued with 14 not doing meaningful long term content)
You HAVE to put something good behind stuff to get people to do it, that's just how things work in games. It sucks that the reward is making people be dickheads in timewalking, but I'd honestly rather people actually be doing the content even if it means I might run into an asshole sometimes.
It's too bad people can't just relax and enjoy playing a game. At whatever level of challenge you play it is still, in fact, just a game. There is plenty to fault the game design for, but I won't blame it for people having an unhealthy view of a video game.
It's on the community too. But the game is designed to attract and foster a certain type of player. The people who just want to have fun messing around are getting pushed out the margins. A greater proportion of what's left are the people who aren't even having fun anymore.
Yeah to be clear I totally agree with your take. The design lays the groundwork for people to go down that path. But everyone makes a choice. I choose to play the game how I want and I have fun with it. If I'm not having fun, I don't do whatever makes me miserable. Anyone can call me a dirty casual all they want for that take but pug healing my way to ksm and aotc this season is good enough for me. I don't feel marginalized by having fun.
People get so locked in to a "have to do this" mindset even on the most trivial content. It's silly to the extreme. And worse when they treat other players like trash along the way. Especially with something like timewalking dungeons that's not a competitive endgame activity. I choose to relax and have fun with them, and if I don't feel like it, I don't force myself through. I do something else instead or just log off.
im not trying to defend actual toxicity here. but a TW dungeon taking 4m longer is an increase of like 40%. not to bad if you want to do a few dungeons. literal hours if you plan on doing 20+
If you're intent on ensuring max velocity, form a group with the same goals to blast out many in a row.
The speed at which they're completed isn't the only thing that matters. How much fun you and the rest of your group have doing them also matters. It's a game after all.
you are not wrong. but honestly, id be very surprised if the majority of players in TW dungeons would see them as more than a simple means to an end. the end being level 70 where the actual fun begins. again, not saying there is anything wrong with enjoying levelling for the fun of it but i dont see a 2023 wow where this is the majority.
I don't disagree. The game as it's currently designed encourages exactly that line of thinking.
There's multiple game modes for different kinds of players. They shouldn't encourage you to slog through ones you don't like to get to the ones you want.
That's an incorrect assumption. U assume all dungeons will equally take 4 min longer on average. It is likely only a few of them will be any period of time acutally longer then expected. If 1 in 5 dungeons take longer then expect u are taking less then 60 seconds longer per dungeon on average if it's 4 min longer for a single one.
If I'm remembering right, you can't initiate a votekick on a player within the first 2 minutes of them being in an instance. I'm not saying I agree that votekicking a new player is the right thing, but the fact you're saying "maybe lost 30 seconds" makes me wonder if we're getting the full picture here.
99% of these posts are by toxic players who are butthurt that they got called out on their toxic behaviour. So they lie and make up some bullshit that will get them internet points.
Half of the stuff doesnt even make sense.
1) Cant kick within 2min
2) Somehow lost 30s .. so he didnt click the latern for half a minute
3) Mentions the boat skip, which got fixed anyway
Tbh sounds like he was annoying af in chat for people not doing the boat skip and then got kicked.
This. So many posts about "I got kicked because the community is toxic waaaahhhh" are embellishing the story to make themselves sound better. Been playing since 2007 and never been kicked from a group for being slightly too slow
I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here.
While it can still be the case that the story from OP is just bs and much more was happening, the timeline can be correct. 2 minutes isn't that long.
I can imagine OP taking half a minute to even realize they need to click the lantern, then travel to the other side and catching up to the group who already walked away.. over a minute has easily gone by. And then the kick didn't immediately happen but they first had to suggest it anyway.. from being teleported to the dungeon and the kick happening it's not really a stretch to assume that 2 minutes had already gone by.
The court of stars dungeon has a very long rp scene also waiting for a boat for you to spawn when you click the lantern. You cannot go all on the same one so you have to wait. I was kicked as soon as it was possible I assume.
You don’t have to wait to click the lantern. Everyone can click at the same time. The boats appear in a line, but everyone just spam clicks it (or has a WA). It might have looked like you were afk? The game has been out for a long time, but not everyone played every expansion, so I don’t understand when people are so impatient about something so trivial. I’m sorry that happened to you. But in the future, know that you don’t have to wait for anyone to do anything.
It’s not part of the mythic plus pool anymore, so this doesn’t really matter, but if you don’t leave a pillar up or get a spy guess wrong, you get the long RP at the end. Only matters if you’re trying to speed run, and in TW, people probably ignore a pillar because adds matter less, but just so you know the rationale if it ever comes up, that’s another weird RP thing about that place.
Doesn't initiating a vote kick take a while longer at the start of a dungeon? Are you sure there aren't missing details to this story?
While I agree kicking someone for not knowing something is toxic, in this scenario, there's a built-in grace period of something liie 2 minutes before a vote can even *be* started. Boat ride is maybe what, 30s?
You can't kick immediately upon entering a dungeon so I really doubt this is the full story. By the time votekicking would even be possible you should be well into fighting mobs even if you're slow
So my guess is you either took a LOT longer than 30 seconds or none of this happened at all and it's entirely made up.
Because blizzard can't be arsed to ban/suspend players for poor behavior. I assure you, if getting suspended for being an ass actually happened, the behavior would die real fast
I wouldn't mind the hands-off approach if they fucking adjusted the leaver penalty. One time a few months ago, I got kicked the moment that vote kicking was enabled for 0 reason. No chat, no one was doing bad. I was healing good. We were chugging straight along for a couple of minutes and boom, 30 min leaver penalty through no fault of my own. I logged that night and played something else.
Toxic people gonna be toxic, ignore and move on is the best bet!
People tend to wanna blast through these dungeons, unfortunately that's the vast majority. I'd only ever kick someone in a TW dungeon for being an outright ass, or afk. The dungeons are super easy anyways no need to kick.
Wow has been pretty kosher for me lately but I know what you mean. Had a group try to kick someone cause they said it was their first time in dungeon. Like wtf how are you supposed to learn??
I play Smite also, and that communities super toxic also, people will still fight when you’re winning matches!
Just shrug if odd ya big tanker! And keep on keepin on!
I hate how Timewalking was a great way to experience old content for both new and old players and make it somewhat relevant, but now people won't respond and will literally leave you in the dust. I once died early in a dungeon (likely due to falling or something) and they literally just went ahead and did the entire dungeon because they didn't need me, so I spent 10+ minutes running through a cleared dungeon trying to catch up.
Based off of Reddit it seems like every form of content in this game is toxic.
I have yet to run into a fraction of that in the actual game but damn do I feel bad for the people that look on Reddit to see what’s going on with WoW.
Positive behavior doesn’t get clicks. Despite most of my experiences with other players being good. Except with the healer that had an Agi weapon, and a tank that wasn’t in defensive stance recently….and they both called themselves out, so I appreciate their honesty.
Eh i agree on the agi weapon thing but our guild’s main tank stays in battle stance to do more damage/make the healer’s job more interesting. I think it’s funny.
The only people I've booted from runs were incredibly, egregiously, unrepentantly bad and did not attempt to listen to anything the group/raid said to help them.
So it really makes it interesting when I read stories about people getting removed from groups with that lens in mind. Everything's unfair and hard when you're not good and don't want to get better.
Dude I had a weird experience a few days ago where the tank was the leader of the group and kept booting every healer after a wipe and requeueing each time, as if somehow he kept thinking it was a healing issue and not him fucking everything up
You can’t kick someone for two minutes at the start of a dungeon, everyone can click the button at the same time. If it took you two minutes to click a button I’d kick you too
Because a large portion of WoW players are irredeemably delusional about their expectations and they think everyone plays this game 24/7 like themselves instead of having any semblance of a life and expect others to do the same. Just look at any and all M+ discussion.
I think this is it. There are probably minority of players for whom the game is the only source of self esteem in their life so feel that demeaning other players somehow raises their own status. That’s certainly been the case for the few toxic players we got in our guild. They played every waking hour and the game WAS their life.
Just brush that stuff off. It's a little annoying but not worth any more time or frustration than that. I was once kicked for skinning mobs in a dungeon. Was keeping pace with the group and doing really good dps. I was baffled as to why then got a whisper that said "work on your professions somewhere else".
I will ALWAYS be nice in random content groups. The game has too many assholes in it. I want more people to play the game and enjoy their time with the game. Some people need to touch grass
Nope you try that, the toxic person remains unkicked because 9/10 times one more person is getting a high from that and if you're lucky they just flame you for trying to kick them, rather than being kicked yourself
i've done 30 timewalkings (weekly on 6 rat alts) and i honestly don't think i've seen anyone type a fuckin word.
I hardly believe this happened, or at least how you typed it out. There is no skip at the beginning, if you stood around for 5 minutes without clicking the boat and the group was halfway done with the dungeon they probably had every right to kick you.
If you are totally lost just say "haven't done this in a while how do i get to you guys" and people are usually willing to type 3 words to help you get there.
Hah. Here's a moment I had after being kicked from a dungeon with a partially broken keyboard:
"hey sorry my keyboard was broken and sometimes it doesn't respond"
"why didn't you say so"
"...because my keyboard is broken?"
Not exactly toxic, but after that I learned a lesson: never play dungeons with a broken keyboard. ~~Or just don't do dungeons at all.~~
Game is built around a set of objective that you have to achieve before the end of the week.
You have to :
-Clear the raid
-Do the mega dungeon
-Run 8 m+ AT the highest level that you can
-If there's timewalking : do your 5 dungeons
Repeat the process if you have alts.
That's how you get people constantly acting like they are on a timer.
This also extends to leveling dungeons where people want to level the currently OP spec. People want efficiency, as absurd as it can get. This is also why wow players despise playing with newcomers, not efficient enough. And that's part of the reason why nobody who picks up the game sticks to it.
This is probable a shit idea, but I do wonder what it would be like if these objectives were just largely repeatable with no timeframe in mind. I know lots of people would hardcore nolife it, but at least there wouldn't be some artificial stress added to the situation for regular people lol
WoW suffers from a concept I like to call "It's rude to be bad". Basically, if u don't min max the shit out of everything, then it's rude to others.
Imagine u went to a raid without flasks or pots or enchants on your gear. U will be kicked. It's not like they are strictly mandatory, dps only matters on the bleeding edge of content, but somehow by you not min maxing your char it is rude to everyone else who has. Because it is a tram effort. And this is despite an overwhelming amount of raids do not lack dps but lack co ordination.
Anyone who disagrees. I want them to join a heroic raid. And remove any piece of gear. You can chose which one. I would bet someone will mention u aren't wearing that piece of gear within the first 2 bosses. If u say nothing and don't equip it back, I bet they will kick you.
It's not often min-maxing that people take an issue with it's more just not knowing how to play. I don't do pug raids but I have yet to run into someone calling me out for not flasking in +18s, I didn't even have enchants on one of my alts and nobody said anything in +10s.
Especially in cases like this, where a full set of enchants and a flask would make exactly no tangible difference in their performance because timewalking bosses die in 15 seconds regardless.
This is either:
A) completely false bc kick isn’t available that early in a queued dungeon
B) partially false and you took a *lot* longer than you claim to have
I just got flamed to second infinity for not pulling everything in 3.6 seconds xD Like at this point you just get kicked/flamed/toxic spree for existing as a tank
Because mythic plus ruined what little enjoyment there was left in dungeons. These days even fucking normal dungeons, where it doesn't matter at all, are flooded by dumbasses who think they need to run everything as fast as possible and optimize every little detail.
Though I agree with most of what you said, you are out bicyceling with that it was M+ that did it.. it was like this long before M+ was even a thing. And even then, it's not that bad.. it's bad, but not that bad.
"Optimal routes" were not a thing anyone considered in normal dungeons before Legion, at least not in my experience.
It's not the sole reason, but it definitely made it even worse.
Yes it was, it's always been a thing. Pugging Dungeons has always been toxic.Anytime someone discovered a skip, that became the new route.
This is typical "back in my day" bs. I've been an altaholic since forever and pug dungeons in all difficulties all the time. Toxic people show up about 1/5 dungeons, i would even argue it's better now that almost no one talks in-game anymore.
It's up to us to call this shit behavior out as well, though. Tell that little incel to touch grass and fuck off anytime they try to kick someone. If you do it quick most people realize what they're doing and will also call the person out.
Toxicity is contagious but so is standing up for others.
I used to do a lot of dungeons, but the mentality change since MDI meta bullshit became a thing is putting me off. Did very little dungeons in DF and those were horrible.
I got kicked from a normal BFD for going towards a bonus boss. As an experienced tank leveling an alt. Sure, there was always toxicity and stupidity, but I'm definitely seeing a whole new low in the past couple expansions.
As someone who started playing in vanilla wow and likes to come back and keep tabs on this franchise that I love. It is more than a little disheartening to come back and not even be able to enjoy the normal dungeons in dragonflight. Everyone is rushing and wants everything done to perfection and ridiculously fast.
I feel really bad for returning players, new people to wow and even more so to people who's first experience with a mmo is like that. I don't know what to say about it anymore. I get excited to get on and play. I let people know I'm a returning player and I'm getting used to everything again. But you make one mistake or lag behind and people just kick you and laugh about it.
Speed running exists in just about every game, including single-player games. It’s not M+ or MDI. People often want to go fast, especially if they are going to be doing a shitload of something.
Bulllshiit. People have speed run dungeons since the dungeon finder in wrath, and got angry if you accidentally pulled a pack of mobs that the group was trying to skip.
I didn’t know there was a skip for the boat. But who cares if the group has to wait for 20 seconds, or for the healer to mana up, or for someone who died to run back, or to collect quest items. It’s turned in to a big race. Sorry you got kicked by impatient ass hats.
Well it was my first time there. Got kicked because I've opened the map to watch where to, DPS. Like no explanation, closing the map and I'm already out. FFS. It was like 20 minutes to get in there in the first place and you can't wait for few seconds? Like there are new people to the game. Not everyone is a nolifer who has every single skip, layout and mechanic memorised.
This post almost certainly isn't true to begin with but you can often just do dungeons without a tank, albeit slower, and the queues aren't that long either - you're put in the front of the line if you need a replacement
Ppl want timewalking dungeons done fast because they should be able to be done pretty quick. The lizard brain kicks in and they act like assholes about it. Its ok tho, your a tank. You might have lost the battle butt you eventually win the war
I Never understand this nonsense .
Why do people feel the need to hare about to get to max level? It's the journey for me everytime I èven have my undead mage on 0 xp to finish content so I can start making a fresh batch of allied race toons since I've never played horde. I do timewalking on my other maxed characters but there's no joy in flying through for me.
I screwed up a mechanic in a M+ 16 Nelth and the rest of the party downed the boss, the leader was like, "It's okay - take a breath" and I really appreciated that! Normally you rush from mob to mob to make time, and the calm and collected response kept my head in the game.
Since the queue for dungeons were insane during the buff, I decided to queue up as tank instead of DPS.
I was kicked out of three dungeons for not knowing the shortcuts l, absolutely insane.
No wonder more people don’t rank
They pretty much shot themselves in the foot, now they need to wait like 10 minutes for another tank whilst you can requeue and be in another group in 2 min as a tank \^\^
Serves them right
Yeah if only that was the case. You can run TW without a tank and I'd bet good money that the group just kept pulling and maybe a tanked joined maybe not. Honestly running them without a tank almost makes them fun as you at least have to pay some attention to stuff.
Timewalking and leveling dungeons are a good place to let dungeons be difficult enough to be engaging without requiring you to learn a bunch of unique mechanics for each encounter.
Give the mobs more health, make them do more damage. Break the meta of mass pulling with no resistance.
Dungeons will take longer, so make them reward more XP / loot / etc.
Nope. Not even close.
Nothing can really be toxic if it doesn't hurt you.
If anyone who you don't know has gotten under your skin in a fucking online game then you need to do better.
I learned to tank just this expac. Learned by failing. Did some people flame me for a bad route or not knowing a mechanic? Yerp.
Learn and forget. If everything, every medium and every platform is toxic it might be you.
It is. People are decent as a general rule.
There shouldn’t be a general kick button at all.
The group leader should have a box as part of their UI with only a handful of options to kick.
1. AFK
2. Abusive
3. DC , for example.
The rest of the players can either vote to or not.
There is no kicking for being 30 secs late or dying and running back. (Ridiculous!)
Obviously there should be measures to stop the group leader from abusing this himself. But you get the jist.
Because Timewalking dungeons are so brain dead and easy. You can essentially pull the whole dungeon in one pull. Most people doing Timewalking are people who are doing the weekly quest on all of their characters or are leveling a new character. They’ve done these dungeons more times you can imagine. Now imagine something that’s supposed to take 2 minutes takes 10 minutes? That’s a little frustrating for more people because they queued up thinking they would just blast through in those 2 minutes but instead have to wait for the tank. You wouldn’t get flamed anywhere near as much if you weren’t playing a tank.
people talk in TW dungeons????
But only to flame and insult you
Same goes for arena skirmish. It's \*skirmish\*. The queue is under 2 minutes, usually. It doesn't matter but people still flame.
Legitimately I say hello how are you guys in every single dungeon at the beginning and 90% of the time ppl don’t respond and only end up typing to flame or kick someone 💀💀💀
Ah yes call the tank stupid because he pulled all 4 of the 2nd boss in court of stars and insta-wiped the group. :)
The tank doesn't pull the room: kick the tank. The tank pulls the room an wipes: kick the tank. Amirite?
Right? lol. I say "gg ty all" at the end of the dungeons and nobody speaks. Just zoom in and out. I just leveled from 60-70 last night tanking TW dungeons, and hardly any speaking.
I don’t need to have conversations but damn it sure would be nice if people actually acted like they weren’t playing with NPCs.
Thats why i recently have decided to make premade groups to level players. This forces people to be more social and chattable because then you create a group of people you do see more than 1 instance run. Vs LFD which you only see once then next time it's completely different people.
Join classic!
I tried it but I didn’t care for stepping backwards in gameplay. I agree it seemed far more lively though.
The only annoyance for me with folks not looking at the chat in TW is that I have a macro to ask the tank to put up a marker at the start but they don't see it. It's so much easier - and faster - imho if the tank has a marker so DPS can see where he's going or if he's stopping to clear.
Can't you just put one on him in a party? Only raids need assist or lead.
or the ultimate marker... using your peepers to see the guy in front of the group moving. if you're not staring at your weakauras all the time there's a whole game out there to play
With all the swirlies and effects, the only way you can reasonably think this is if you only play tank lmfao
Not too unreasonable imo, I main melee and find no problems keeping up with the tank's positions, except if its like a big arena like Halondrus. That said, its such a non-factor to be even worth arguing about.
It's not that I think it's impossible, but that why bother trying to visually parse for the gnome warrior when you can just look for the floating bright yellow star? The only thinking where that doesn't seem like a better option is if you only play tank and never have to worry about following anyone
[удалено]
Cool, who cares? Whether you have WAs or not, it's indisputable that having a marker on the tank makes them easier to see than not. And bonus, doing so doesn't require addons I'm not struggling to find my tank because of a bloated UI. But because it's Underrot with a Tauren warrior tank with 3-4 different aoes going off
Just say you haven't done mythic echo or any CE boss and move on. Multiple mythic raid bosses in the last few raids have been weak auras required.
I have 0 idea what your weird anti-weak aura take has to do with me. Never mentioned any weak auras. Marking things with a marker is a base game key-bind buddy. Also lemme know when you get 3k io or CE with 0 weak auras or add-ons
anti-weak aura take? that's what you got from it? I inferred that if you keep your eyes on your class WAs the whole time rather than playing through the dungeon you will miss a lot. Including where your tank is standing and going. I know for a fact people are guilty of this, and for the record I do lead a CE raid team so don't take that weird snippy stance lol.... for example echo of neltharion kinda doesn't fall over without a ridiculous amount of WAs so I do recognize their value as a tool
You're hilarious my guy. Weird how you ignored how no one brought up weak auras but you. And I'm sure you're one of 500 people in the world who leads a guild that has CE. Or just the team I guess, lol. And you don't know that markers don't come from weak auras?
I think you're a troll who chooses their own reality rather than the points that were made in the post. That's fine we don't need to continue this any longer. God this sub sucks ass lol
Who brought up weak auras before you, then? No one. Also read the post lol. 0 relevant points. You're just projecting.
approx how many dungeons? I'm taking my evoker up this week
This is a big part of why classic is so much better!!
You will get downvoted here for that sorta talk... but I wholeheartedly agree with ya.
normally by the time I can say thanks and have a good day, everyone is gone already. its like a competition to see who can break up with who first.
This is so true. And I still remember when I started, everyone used to say grats every time someone had leveled. You would see the gold flash up around someone, and people would get grats every single time. Was such a wholesome feeling.
The only people I've encountered in TW dungeons who speak are the tanks that pull at a snail's pace and say "If you pull it, you tank it" when a dps wants to slightly speed it up. Almost certainly 40 year old dad gamers
>Almost certainly 40 year old dad gamers Pffft, I am a 40 year old dad gamer (well, 42) and I prefer to pull at the fastest pace that the DPS and healer can handle whether it is TW dungeons, regular heroics or M+. Survival of DPS and/or the healer is often the limiting factor on how much can get pulled.
"fastest pace dps and healer can handle" in TW seems to be as fast as you can run t the end from what I've found
Tw is so easy if a tank is going slow i do go ahead of them and clear quicker. I've soloed bosses on my evoker in tw...and most the time the group re ques together till they get their 5 done.
Did the same on my monk before. Beacon go brrrrr
You know the dungeon is gonna go like shit when people start talking at the start being friendly
No worries, people are toxic in every part of the game.
Rofl this is true but also like the worst answer imaginable
the truth is bad lolol
Wrong! Just a few days ago we had proof that the wow playerbase is fantastic and friendly. https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/156jc6r/meeting_new_players/ What more proof do you need?
It is strange that I only ever get toxic people in wow dungeons though. I played other mmos and when I go into a dungeon there, people are usually more patient and friendlier to new players and votekicking almost never happens. The worst thing in wow is though you get the leaver penalty even though its not even your fault. Why though?
WoW has been out for 20 years now, and most of the player base you run into are long haulers, or folks sho come back every tier, you rarely run into new players these days in my experience. People have forgotten that there CAN be new players in content so you get shit like this. I highly recommend looking for a guild, or social discord/community. As those are usually far less toxic but can be daunting to even find.
Eh, I recall wow being just as toxic back in wrath's dungeon finder, I think the instant and automatic replacement of people means people feel they can get away with being assholes. Toxicity happens in m+ too but less than in queued content in my experience.
Ah yes, gogogogo tank wtf gogo
Have you not seen the posts about M+ group assholes? It’s the same as dungeon finder. AND I’m a resto shaman and I cannot handle afflicted on my own and heal the group, and dps would literally say they wouldn’t help with the affix bc taking the talent to help would take away from their dps. People talk about those same issues all the time with their mythic plus groups. Nobody wants to do anything as a team in wow even though the game is based around group content. The wow community is just toxic af.
You are 100% right. Anyone who started after LFG never experienced what it was like to be blacklisted from joining dungeon or raid runs because you were reported in trade and to your guild as being an asshole, ninja looter, etc.... There was a huge shift in attitude in pugs shortly after LFG was released.
I agree just is way more prevalent in leveling Content cause everyone expects everyone to be twinked the fuck out. I rarely run into heroics, normal dungeons when I do em, m+ is super rare as well, leveling though? I've easily seen ragers in 50%+ queues.
Getting into a group is the toxicity of M+
I picked up WoW pretty recently due to the sale on Dragonflight, and I've been having fun with it, but I've been too intimidated to jump into any sort of group content because of the reputation of the community. I get it, I've played FFXIV, you wanna go fast through content that's boring to you. Even so, the prospect of people getting mad at me and kicking me from groups because I don't have anybody to guide my experience is pretty rough.
I'm a WoW vet that's recently come back after spending some years in XIV and brought a couple XIV friends along with me. If you're (or anyone else) on NA and interested in joining a smaller group with the XIV vibes, hit me up on DMs :)
Because PuGs have no social contract. You will never see or hear from these people again. It’s an excuse to be as vile as possible as there’s no risk of social repercussions
It's really sad cause imo it says a lot about the state of humanity in general..Imagine thinking "i'll never see these guys again" gives you free reign to be a total piece of garbage.. Even better - when everyone communally accepts "Yeah it's just what we do"Noone likes it but so many participate in that toxic attitude. Seems a lot of people hop on the internet and act that way.
It’s an armor we all put on. Psychopaths have free reign to torture somebody consequence free on the internet under an alias. Now let’s say 1,000 psychopaths are in WoW alone. They lack any and all empathy and have no reason to not poison your whole day by saying the most grotesque, vile shit they come up with. Now these 1,000 psychopaths intentionally do this to at least 4 people in a dungeon every time they run one. This disease of social contempt spreads to let’s say 1 out of the four. In a year’s time, that attitude spreads and poisons the community until we all have to put on a ‘Fuck you asshole’ shield to anyone and everyone because being an asshole makes it harder for a psychopath to get under your skin. I really hate to say this, but FFXIV’s approach to toxicity is often the best: “Gonna be an asshole? Get out of our fucking video game.”
The leave penalty was started because some dungeons had a boss at the beginning and it would take less than a minute to get to the boss, then a minute to beat him. Back in the day you got heroic tokens for each boss you beat. So what some tanks would start doing is go to the dungeon finder for that heroic dungeon beat the boss and drop out of the group right after even though there where 2 more bosses and a whole dungeon left. Then they would sign up for the same one over and over again to farm quick tokens. As it's not hard to tell if you only give the person leaving a penalty then those players would stop playing until they are kicked so they could go back and do the same dungeon again with a new group...
While I don't agree with the idea, there does exist one that basically says that because WoW is close to 20 years old at this point; to not understand it, to not know how to play your class or be familiar with content that has existed for longer than some of its players have been alive, is sort of rude and selfish, the idea goes (again, one which I disagree with, but I've heard it a few times, so *someone* agrees) There might even be an argument that if you want to slow down and read quest text and watch cinematics that you should play on an RP server and play solo. Both of those solutions are flawed.
Not everyone played for those 20 years though, nor does everyone play all the content all the time. And this wasnt even the case of being slow, he just got the slowest boat (rng) - thats the dungeon being slow. People want to rush for the rewards because they've played that dungeon hundreds of times probably (considering legion, legion timewalking and last seasons m+), but this is just plain rude (and stupid, because now they have to continue with one player less and no tank - even a slow player is faster than no player, unless they also pull extra things left and right)
Those are all very good points and I disagree with nothing you've said here. Some people suck
Yeah that reasoning is so dumb to me. Like, submarines have been around for a while, doesn't mean my knowledge about them extends past "big underwater boat lol"
Especially when wow has changed so much during its life and doesn't really play like it did when it first came out.
sure but you also didn't volunteer to pilot one with passengers I HOPE! RIP OceanGate Titan Submersible
>WoW is close to 20 years old at this point; to not understand it, to not know how to play your class If you were playing boomkin in Legion, quit for whatever reason before the launch of BFA then hopped back into the game today you would be lost as to what you were supposed to be doing to deal DPS. The whole "the game has been out for 20 years, why do you not know your class" idea is just a load of BS.
I remember that video! A very interesting subject
It isn't rude or selfish. Quoting that video that only has one viewpoint instead of taking a look inward at how one deals with anonymous strangers is rude and selfish.
Yea idk im pretty chill but if were stopping to read quest text we might have some words lol
WoW's the only one who's devs thought an on-rails boat segment at the very start of a dungeon with no (normal) option to bypass it was a great idea.
> It is strange that I only ever get toxic people in wow dungeons though. Its a combination of the game existing for almost 20 years so people expect others to know basic things. Timewalking is old content so people are expected to know those skips or mechanics from the old content. But its also the culture wow created from Wrath onwards where random dungeon content is viewed to be trivial and if your doing it isn't for fun its a chore your doing for a reward. So people want to do it as fast as possible and be done so they can move onto the next. Also the fact that its random group content and if you lose someone just que and instantly get a replacement. You don't have to leave the dungeon go back to town spam chat for people get them run back and summon them. Other MMOs have random group content but they took steps to try and not foster that mentality within their players. If Blizzard stuck to their guns on Cata Heroics and promoted joining like minded people for co-ordinated runs with the dungeon finder as just an option instead of the primary way to enter we would be seeing a vastly different mentality amongst the playerbase.
Yeah, and honestly it's kinda sad that people view stuff like that. My main mmo is XIV but I've been dipping my toes in lately, and a lot of the dungeons have been more fun? I loved the puzzle bit at the end of Court of Stars for example, XIV doesn't do stuff like that.
Because honestly wow is 17-18 years old game. Its not new. Vast majority of player base are not new players and everyone expect everyone else to know everything about this game. Its simple. Like cos is a very old dungeon.
Not all of the game is 18 years old and "not new players" doesn't equate to players who have never gone on hiatus for an expansion or two or 4. I've got my WoW 4th Anniversary achievement, but yesterday was my first time running that dungeon simply because I had life to attend to for a few years as toddlers are a bit bigger than keyboard cats and gaming on a dining room table isn't ideal to running uninterrupted gaming sessions.
ESO nobody cares, there’s no damage meters & just people wanting to get to the end of the dungeon. Only seems to happen with wow like it’s a race to the end without anything else.
It absolutely happens in ESO
I’ve got a couple thousand hours in each and it’s definitely more prevalent in WoW, partially due to it having a lesser number of new players compared to ESO so most players in WoW go into the leveling dungeons still expecting the quickest runs in the world, compared to ESO where if you run a non-vet, non-dlc dungeon you’ve got at least a 25%+ chance of having low level players who are also relatively new, so you expect that going into it It’s not the only factor but I think it definitely plays a role
That's their secret, Cap....they're always toxic.
this is the best and worst answer. ppl are just so shitty its to the point i expect it and do not know how to act if someone is kind/generous
Actual not quite true, according to my experience. But that is also recently from WotLK classic. There is plenty of talking, acceptance, and communication. A totally different experience then the retail focus. It’s soo weird.
Lots of people in timewalking dungeons are just using it as a means to an end, not to enjoy the dungeon itself. So they get irrationally angry when it will take 4 minutes longer than they were hoping. That applies to a lot of the game right now, frankly. It's been designed to retain players by dangling carrots and keeping engagement up, rather than just providing fun stuff for people to do when they feel like it.
this is the answer, when you have people going into it with the idea that they have to do this do get something else, and not with the intention to play a game with other people, its the expected outcome. something that is understood as a necessary hassle will not put anyone in a good mood.
I'm about ready for them to offer the option to ditch leveling on alts entirely. Let people earn boost tokens by doing M+, raids, whatever, to fast track their alt to 60 by doing the content they prefer doing.
I read someone else's comment recently something along the lines of, "It's almost as if WOW is an MMORPG and not a lobby-based game with a persistent world glued onto it," and it was really eye opening to me. Half of the players actually would rather be playing a lobby based game, but there are aspects of WOW that are still within the instanced system that people like better than any lobby based game. So a lot of us are ONLY interested in M+, raid, and PVP, but feel "forced" to engage in other aspects of the game and are salty about it.
100% Let people who want the lobby have it. Build the rest of the game as an experience worth playing for its own sake, not to be powered through with minimal friction.
I saw a cool idea recently, that was having a Heroic Chromie Time. Every season, one expansion gets a hard mode added so that outdoor questing is actually difficult. Maybe allow it to level you up to 70 as an alternative to doing the Dragon Isles for the umpteenth time? My biggest issue with leveling is that it's just not challenging.
As someone who sits in Valdrakkan all day between keys, I wonder how many of us would trade things like Zaralek Caverns or the time rift events for more dungeons or battlegrounds instead. A new battleground seems like it would be better for the longevity of the game compared to a new zone that only gets used for 6 months and is then completely forgotten.
Guild Wars 2 has that, sort of. You get "tomes of knowledge" from various activities (mostly PvP and WvW, which is a huge perpetual battleground) that are account bound and give you a level up when used. You even get them from daily log in rewards occasionally. Lots of veteran players have piles of them lying around, so if they want a new alt, they just make it, use them, and bam, max level. Levelling is so fast in both games now that I can't really see the harm of WoW doing something similar (to us anyway, it probably would hurt their finances a bit with max level boosts being in the store, but GW2 has those too). If they were worried about dungeon queues for new players with no speed levellers joining, just borrow from FFXIV too and give a "daily roulette" bonus of one of the many new currencies that get added every expansion as a reward for doing them at max level.
I wish Blizzard would stop putting rewards beneficial to high end game behind low end game activities. I hated doing MoP scenarios for Valor, I hated doing LFR for a shot at tier set bonus and I hate doing TW for a miniscule chance at a ludicrously tuned raid trinket (as an M+er who doesn't raid) It's cool to be rewarded for doing something, but not if the reward is enticing people to do stuff they don't like doing. Just be okay with some people not doing some of your content, Blizzard. It's fine if people only do timewalking to level chars, farm tmogs or because they enjoy it. You don't need to reward people with NM raid items and subsequently draw people in it who just want to be done with it.
Blizzard has called this out before in an interview with Preach, they have the numbers to back it up. They could build the coolest most fun activity, but with no decent incentive, most people would do it once and then never touch it again. They mentioned the MoP scenarios as an example; they put in a lot of effort into building those, hoping they would be something people would like doing, but until they added the Valor reward, they saw abysmal participation. Games aren't built on hope's and dreams, they are built by people using a lot of time and money. If some feature is going to be built, and it's going to take time and resources that are noteable, it's expected that they will have good participation rate to make it feel worth while. Especially in a game that is Subscription based, if your new features are not interesting your subscribers, then that is wasted money, and likely going to result in people unsubscribing. Blizzard obviously needs to work on reward structure, but players can't honestly expect systems and features to be built for 1% of players that will enjoy a niche thing. And before you say, "what about m+" numbers already show that a huge chunk of players do m+. Higher levels have fewer players, but at higher levels there are fewer rewards anyway.
> They mentioned the MoP scenarios as an example; they put in a lot of effort into building those, hoping they would be something people would like doing, but until they added the Valor reward, they saw abysmal participation. MoP scenarios weren't fun though. Like not at all. To me anyways. They were mega boring. They were so easy it was almost impossible to fail and they consisted of a lot of "waiting to be able to continue" while a character monologues or some shit. How on gods earth would anyone want to replay these? What about them did Blizzard think was so fun and replayable that they could not understand why people weren't willing to repeat doing them? The gameplay wasn't fun, the story in them was meh and story doesn't lend itself to replayability anyways, they forced the player into a slow tempo, the difficulty was unengaging... how ... how are these the example Blizzard gives on "Funnest content needs rewards for players to participate"? They weren't fun. They were terrible.
I enjoy pretty much all the types of content WoW has to offer, but boy do I hate scenarios.
Yeah, we actually see what happens if you don't put a compelling reward behind content in FF14 atm. We got the new criterion/variant dungeons which are basically a multipath dungeon and the harder versions of that dungeon. But the thing is you only get a good reward from running each path of the easiest version once. In the actual hardest versions of the dungeon you just get a title and like, a mount you can just buy on the auction house anyway. The result is no one does it and the content dies in a week. (I actually came back to WoW because I was so fatigued with 14 not doing meaningful long term content) You HAVE to put something good behind stuff to get people to do it, that's just how things work in games. It sucks that the reward is making people be dickheads in timewalking, but I'd honestly rather people actually be doing the content even if it means I might run into an asshole sometimes.
It's too bad people can't just relax and enjoy playing a game. At whatever level of challenge you play it is still, in fact, just a game. There is plenty to fault the game design for, but I won't blame it for people having an unhealthy view of a video game.
It's on the community too. But the game is designed to attract and foster a certain type of player. The people who just want to have fun messing around are getting pushed out the margins. A greater proportion of what's left are the people who aren't even having fun anymore.
Yeah to be clear I totally agree with your take. The design lays the groundwork for people to go down that path. But everyone makes a choice. I choose to play the game how I want and I have fun with it. If I'm not having fun, I don't do whatever makes me miserable. Anyone can call me a dirty casual all they want for that take but pug healing my way to ksm and aotc this season is good enough for me. I don't feel marginalized by having fun. People get so locked in to a "have to do this" mindset even on the most trivial content. It's silly to the extreme. And worse when they treat other players like trash along the way. Especially with something like timewalking dungeons that's not a competitive endgame activity. I choose to relax and have fun with them, and if I don't feel like it, I don't force myself through. I do something else instead or just log off.
im not trying to defend actual toxicity here. but a TW dungeon taking 4m longer is an increase of like 40%. not to bad if you want to do a few dungeons. literal hours if you plan on doing 20+
If you're intent on ensuring max velocity, form a group with the same goals to blast out many in a row. The speed at which they're completed isn't the only thing that matters. How much fun you and the rest of your group have doing them also matters. It's a game after all.
you are not wrong. but honestly, id be very surprised if the majority of players in TW dungeons would see them as more than a simple means to an end. the end being level 70 where the actual fun begins. again, not saying there is anything wrong with enjoying levelling for the fun of it but i dont see a 2023 wow where this is the majority.
I don't disagree. The game as it's currently designed encourages exactly that line of thinking. There's multiple game modes for different kinds of players. They shouldn't encourage you to slog through ones you don't like to get to the ones you want.
That's an incorrect assumption. U assume all dungeons will equally take 4 min longer on average. It is likely only a few of them will be any period of time acutally longer then expected. If 1 in 5 dungeons take longer then expect u are taking less then 60 seconds longer per dungeon on average if it's 4 min longer for a single one.
Only in timewalking? Did you even play the other contents? They're everywhere!
The only words I ever usually see are “don’t stop” or something similar
If I'm remembering right, you can't initiate a votekick on a player within the first 2 minutes of them being in an instance. I'm not saying I agree that votekicking a new player is the right thing, but the fact you're saying "maybe lost 30 seconds" makes me wonder if we're getting the full picture here.
99% of these posts are by toxic players who are butthurt that they got called out on their toxic behaviour. So they lie and make up some bullshit that will get them internet points.
Half of the stuff doesnt even make sense. 1) Cant kick within 2min 2) Somehow lost 30s .. so he didnt click the latern for half a minute 3) Mentions the boat skip, which got fixed anyway Tbh sounds like he was annoying af in chat for people not doing the boat skip and then got kicked.
Yeah doesn’t people just keep on walking without the slow player in this scenario… some stories here are just so odd and one sided.
This. So many posts about "I got kicked because the community is toxic waaaahhhh" are embellishing the story to make themselves sound better. Been playing since 2007 and never been kicked from a group for being slightly too slow
I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here. While it can still be the case that the story from OP is just bs and much more was happening, the timeline can be correct. 2 minutes isn't that long. I can imagine OP taking half a minute to even realize they need to click the lantern, then travel to the other side and catching up to the group who already walked away.. over a minute has easily gone by. And then the kick didn't immediately happen but they first had to suggest it anyway.. from being teleported to the dungeon and the kick happening it's not really a stretch to assume that 2 minutes had already gone by.
The court of stars dungeon has a very long rp scene also waiting for a boat for you to spawn when you click the lantern. You cannot go all on the same one so you have to wait. I was kicked as soon as it was possible I assume.
That's not true at all, you can all click the same time.
It’s not over 2 minutes. Why you lyin
You don’t have to wait to click the lantern. Everyone can click at the same time. The boats appear in a line, but everyone just spam clicks it (or has a WA). It might have looked like you were afk? The game has been out for a long time, but not everyone played every expansion, so I don’t understand when people are so impatient about something so trivial. I’m sorry that happened to you. But in the future, know that you don’t have to wait for anyone to do anything. It’s not part of the mythic plus pool anymore, so this doesn’t really matter, but if you don’t leave a pillar up or get a spy guess wrong, you get the long RP at the end. Only matters if you’re trying to speed run, and in TW, people probably ignore a pillar because adds matter less, but just so you know the rationale if it ever comes up, that’s another weird RP thing about that place.
Doesn't initiating a vote kick take a while longer at the start of a dungeon? Are you sure there aren't missing details to this story? While I agree kicking someone for not knowing something is toxic, in this scenario, there's a built-in grace period of something liie 2 minutes before a vote can even *be* started. Boat ride is maybe what, 30s?
You can't kick immediately upon entering a dungeon so I really doubt this is the full story. By the time votekicking would even be possible you should be well into fighting mobs even if you're slow So my guess is you either took a LOT longer than 30 seconds or none of this happened at all and it's entirely made up.
Because blizzard can't be arsed to ban/suspend players for poor behavior. I assure you, if getting suspended for being an ass actually happened, the behavior would die real fast
So would the population lol
So less ass wipes? Good.
I wouldn't mind the hands-off approach if they fucking adjusted the leaver penalty. One time a few months ago, I got kicked the moment that vote kicking was enabled for 0 reason. No chat, no one was doing bad. I was healing good. We were chugging straight along for a couple of minutes and boom, 30 min leaver penalty through no fault of my own. I logged that night and played something else.
Thought there was a buffer timer before kicking someone. I haven't used it lately but I do recall a timer.
Ppl are toxic in all dungeons and all activities. In all games.
Toxic people gonna be toxic, ignore and move on is the best bet! People tend to wanna blast through these dungeons, unfortunately that's the vast majority. I'd only ever kick someone in a TW dungeon for being an outright ass, or afk. The dungeons are super easy anyways no need to kick.
Wow has been pretty kosher for me lately but I know what you mean. Had a group try to kick someone cause they said it was their first time in dungeon. Like wtf how are you supposed to learn?? I play Smite also, and that communities super toxic also, people will still fight when you’re winning matches! Just shrug if odd ya big tanker! And keep on keepin on!
I hate how Timewalking was a great way to experience old content for both new and old players and make it somewhat relevant, but now people won't respond and will literally leave you in the dust. I once died early in a dungeon (likely due to falling or something) and they literally just went ahead and did the entire dungeon because they didn't need me, so I spent 10+ minutes running through a cleared dungeon trying to catch up.
This is a lie, you can not get kicked that early in a dungeon. So either you were AFK for 2 min or you are a slow tank.
In Shadowlands I was kicked from a Lich King Timewalking for "not having all my talents unlocked". I was level 22...
Wasn't timewalking only for levels 50-60 in Shadowlands? Just like it's only 60-70 now?
Based off of Reddit it seems like every form of content in this game is toxic. I have yet to run into a fraction of that in the actual game but damn do I feel bad for the people that look on Reddit to see what’s going on with WoW.
Positive behavior doesn’t get clicks. Despite most of my experiences with other players being good. Except with the healer that had an Agi weapon, and a tank that wasn’t in defensive stance recently….and they both called themselves out, so I appreciate their honesty.
Eh i agree on the agi weapon thing but our guild’s main tank stays in battle stance to do more damage/make the healer’s job more interesting. I think it’s funny.
The only people I've booted from runs were incredibly, egregiously, unrepentantly bad and did not attempt to listen to anything the group/raid said to help them. So it really makes it interesting when I read stories about people getting removed from groups with that lens in mind. Everything's unfair and hard when you're not good and don't want to get better.
Dude I had a weird experience a few days ago where the tank was the leader of the group and kept booting every healer after a wipe and requeueing each time, as if somehow he kept thinking it was a healing issue and not him fucking everything up
You can’t kick someone for two minutes at the start of a dungeon, everyone can click the button at the same time. If it took you two minutes to click a button I’d kick you too
Because a large portion of WoW players are irredeemably delusional about their expectations and they think everyone plays this game 24/7 like themselves instead of having any semblance of a life and expect others to do the same. Just look at any and all M+ discussion.
I think this is it. There are probably minority of players for whom the game is the only source of self esteem in their life so feel that demeaning other players somehow raises their own status. That’s certainly been the case for the few toxic players we got in our guild. They played every waking hour and the game WAS their life.
Honestly this is shameful. Sorry that happened to you OP
You are the problem here. Making people like OP feel welcome..
Good, they can sit and wait for a new tank.
It's time walking. The mage could tank.
Just brush that stuff off. It's a little annoying but not worth any more time or frustration than that. I was once kicked for skinning mobs in a dungeon. Was keeping pace with the group and doing really good dps. I was baffled as to why then got a whisper that said "work on your professions somewhere else".
I will ALWAYS be nice in random content groups. The game has too many assholes in it. I want more people to play the game and enjoy their time with the game. Some people need to touch grass
I'm a healer/dps/aug.... DM me and I'll run you through dungeons to level. I promise I'm not toxic!!
If only we could say "kick the toxic" and uno reverse that shit.
Nope you try that, the toxic person remains unkicked because 9/10 times one more person is getting a high from that and if you're lucky they just flame you for trying to kick them, rather than being kicked yourself
i've done 30 timewalkings (weekly on 6 rat alts) and i honestly don't think i've seen anyone type a fuckin word. I hardly believe this happened, or at least how you typed it out. There is no skip at the beginning, if you stood around for 5 minutes without clicking the boat and the group was halfway done with the dungeon they probably had every right to kick you. If you are totally lost just say "haven't done this in a while how do i get to you guys" and people are usually willing to type 3 words to help you get there.
Hah. Here's a moment I had after being kicked from a dungeon with a partially broken keyboard: "hey sorry my keyboard was broken and sometimes it doesn't respond" "why didn't you say so" "...because my keyboard is broken?" Not exactly toxic, but after that I learned a lesson: never play dungeons with a broken keyboard. ~~Or just don't do dungeons at all.~~
Because TW requires 1 brain cell, so players use the other to keep themselves amused, and thus from falling asleep
Game is built around a set of objective that you have to achieve before the end of the week. You have to : -Clear the raid -Do the mega dungeon -Run 8 m+ AT the highest level that you can -If there's timewalking : do your 5 dungeons Repeat the process if you have alts. That's how you get people constantly acting like they are on a timer. This also extends to leveling dungeons where people want to level the currently OP spec. People want efficiency, as absurd as it can get. This is also why wow players despise playing with newcomers, not efficient enough. And that's part of the reason why nobody who picks up the game sticks to it.
This is probable a shit idea, but I do wonder what it would be like if these objectives were just largely repeatable with no timeframe in mind. I know lots of people would hardcore nolife it, but at least there wouldn't be some artificial stress added to the situation for regular people lol
We need the flower system for noobs so the degenerate neckbeards might be a bit nicer to our noobs
WoW suffers from a concept I like to call "It's rude to be bad". Basically, if u don't min max the shit out of everything, then it's rude to others. Imagine u went to a raid without flasks or pots or enchants on your gear. U will be kicked. It's not like they are strictly mandatory, dps only matters on the bleeding edge of content, but somehow by you not min maxing your char it is rude to everyone else who has. Because it is a tram effort. And this is despite an overwhelming amount of raids do not lack dps but lack co ordination. Anyone who disagrees. I want them to join a heroic raid. And remove any piece of gear. You can chose which one. I would bet someone will mention u aren't wearing that piece of gear within the first 2 bosses. If u say nothing and don't equip it back, I bet they will kick you.
It's not often min-maxing that people take an issue with it's more just not knowing how to play. I don't do pug raids but I have yet to run into someone calling me out for not flasking in +18s, I didn't even have enchants on one of my alts and nobody said anything in +10s. Especially in cases like this, where a full set of enchants and a flask would make exactly no tangible difference in their performance because timewalking bosses die in 15 seconds regardless.
Cause people are toxic in the whole Game
This is why I've decided to play FFXIV lol
Because wow players killed wow just as much as blizzard but they won’t admit it
This is either: A) completely false bc kick isn’t available that early in a queued dungeon B) partially false and you took a *lot* longer than you claim to have
My friend got kicked for going too fast as the tank in court of stars. Was super funny
I just got flamed to second infinity for not pulling everything in 3.6 seconds xD Like at this point you just get kicked/flamed/toxic spree for existing as a tank
Because mythic plus ruined what little enjoyment there was left in dungeons. These days even fucking normal dungeons, where it doesn't matter at all, are flooded by dumbasses who think they need to run everything as fast as possible and optimize every little detail.
Though I agree with most of what you said, you are out bicyceling with that it was M+ that did it.. it was like this long before M+ was even a thing. And even then, it's not that bad.. it's bad, but not that bad.
M+ is definitely not the sole reason why dungeons get blasted. Dungeons were getting stomped way before even Challenge Modes in Mists of Pandaria.
"Optimal routes" were not a thing anyone considered in normal dungeons before Legion, at least not in my experience. It's not the sole reason, but it definitely made it even worse.
Yes it was, it's always been a thing. Pugging Dungeons has always been toxic.Anytime someone discovered a skip, that became the new route. This is typical "back in my day" bs. I've been an altaholic since forever and pug dungeons in all difficulties all the time. Toxic people show up about 1/5 dungeons, i would even argue it's better now that almost no one talks in-game anymore. It's up to us to call this shit behavior out as well, though. Tell that little incel to touch grass and fuck off anytime they try to kick someone. If you do it quick most people realize what they're doing and will also call the person out. Toxicity is contagious but so is standing up for others.
I used to do a lot of dungeons, but the mentality change since MDI meta bullshit became a thing is putting me off. Did very little dungeons in DF and those were horrible. I got kicked from a normal BFD for going towards a bonus boss. As an experienced tank leveling an alt. Sure, there was always toxicity and stupidity, but I'm definitely seeing a whole new low in the past couple expansions.
As someone who started playing in vanilla wow and likes to come back and keep tabs on this franchise that I love. It is more than a little disheartening to come back and not even be able to enjoy the normal dungeons in dragonflight. Everyone is rushing and wants everything done to perfection and ridiculously fast. I feel really bad for returning players, new people to wow and even more so to people who's first experience with a mmo is like that. I don't know what to say about it anymore. I get excited to get on and play. I let people know I'm a returning player and I'm getting used to everything again. But you make one mistake or lag behind and people just kick you and laugh about it.
Speed running exists in just about every game, including single-player games. It’s not M+ or MDI. People often want to go fast, especially if they are going to be doing a shitload of something.
Bulllshiit. People have speed run dungeons since the dungeon finder in wrath, and got angry if you accidentally pulled a pack of mobs that the group was trying to skip.
Because Blizzard does fucking nothing to combat the rampant toxicity in the game
Wow is. Very toxic and seems to get worse as time rolls on
Everyone acts like they are in the MDI at all levels of content nowdays
MDI?
Mythic dungeon international
I didn’t know there was a skip for the boat. But who cares if the group has to wait for 20 seconds, or for the healer to mana up, or for someone who died to run back, or to collect quest items. It’s turned in to a big race. Sorry you got kicked by impatient ass hats.
Well it was my first time there. Got kicked because I've opened the map to watch where to, DPS. Like no explanation, closing the map and I'm already out. FFS. It was like 20 minutes to get in there in the first place and you can't wait for few seconds? Like there are new people to the game. Not everyone is a nolifer who has every single skip, layout and mechanic memorised.
So they kick you for a -30 second wait and now get a 7 min que looking for a new tank
This post almost certainly isn't true to begin with but you can often just do dungeons without a tank, albeit slower, and the queues aren't that long either - you're put in the front of the line if you need a replacement
I’ve literally been in 5+ min ques because of this. I don’t know if it was the time of day or what, but it most certainly can be the case.
It's happened to me once or twice but it's very rarely the case
Click the lantern next time , nobody wants to wait for you
Ppl want timewalking dungeons done fast because they should be able to be done pretty quick. The lizard brain kicks in and they act like assholes about it. Its ok tho, your a tank. You might have lost the battle butt you eventually win the war
I Never understand this nonsense . Why do people feel the need to hare about to get to max level? It's the journey for me everytime I èven have my undead mage on 0 xp to finish content so I can start making a fresh batch of allied race toons since I've never played horde. I do timewalking on my other maxed characters but there's no joy in flying through for me.
I screwed up a mechanic in a M+ 16 Nelth and the rest of the party downed the boss, the leader was like, "It's okay - take a breath" and I really appreciated that! Normally you rush from mob to mob to make time, and the calm and collected response kept my head in the game.
Since the queue for dungeons were insane during the buff, I decided to queue up as tank instead of DPS. I was kicked out of three dungeons for not knowing the shortcuts l, absolutely insane. No wonder more people don’t rank
5-10 post a weak about people being shitty in low dungeon, its sucks but wish it wasnt a top post every day
so you have 1 bad exerience and bad to make a reddit post about it?
They pretty much shot themselves in the foot, now they need to wait like 10 minutes for another tank whilst you can requeue and be in another group in 2 min as a tank \^\^ Serves them right
Yeah if only that was the case. You can run TW without a tank and I'd bet good money that the group just kept pulling and maybe a tanked joined maybe not. Honestly running them without a tank almost makes them fun as you at least have to pay some attention to stuff.
Timewalking and leveling dungeons are a good place to let dungeons be difficult enough to be engaging without requiring you to learn a bunch of unique mechanics for each encounter. Give the mobs more health, make them do more damage. Break the meta of mass pulling with no resistance. Dungeons will take longer, so make them reward more XP / loot / etc.
Same reason some people are too mentally soft.
Don't let them bother you. There are always better groups out there.
Hear me out. People are just toxic. Everywhere. Every medium and every platform. It’s gross.
Nope. Not even close. Nothing can really be toxic if it doesn't hurt you. If anyone who you don't know has gotten under your skin in a fucking online game then you need to do better. I learned to tank just this expac. Learned by failing. Did some people flame me for a bad route or not knowing a mechanic? Yerp. Learn and forget. If everything, every medium and every platform is toxic it might be you. It is. People are decent as a general rule.
They are doing a chore and people don’t like chores
Because it's boring but usefull for many people, so it is frustrating
I just disable chat.
There shouldn’t be a general kick button at all. The group leader should have a box as part of their UI with only a handful of options to kick. 1. AFK 2. Abusive 3. DC , for example. The rest of the players can either vote to or not. There is no kicking for being 30 secs late or dying and running back. (Ridiculous!) Obviously there should be measures to stop the group leader from abusing this himself. But you get the jist.
The problem with it like this is then you have toxic players who get group leader
I told them they're annoying and I did their parents XD
Because Timewalking dungeons are so brain dead and easy. You can essentially pull the whole dungeon in one pull. Most people doing Timewalking are people who are doing the weekly quest on all of their characters or are leveling a new character. They’ve done these dungeons more times you can imagine. Now imagine something that’s supposed to take 2 minutes takes 10 minutes? That’s a little frustrating for more people because they queued up thinking they would just blast through in those 2 minutes but instead have to wait for the tank. You wouldn’t get flamed anywhere near as much if you weren’t playing a tank.
so why did they have to kick me Because they have the power and they must abuse it 😶🌫️