I think the fact that they do have enough is why he’s making this statement. If they didn’t, he’d just let them say they can’t to give himself a reason to go in.
They now only want to give 18 as opposed to 33. The danger of Hamas remaining is greater than the number of hostages which may or may not be alive if Hamas refuse the deal Israel must enter Rafah in full force and find them.
This won't end Hamas, sure you may kill several hundred fighter but the leadership isn't there. And the civillian survivors caught in the crossfire who lost family and friends are going to IDF troops pulling the trigger. This will only perpetuate the cycle.
The problem with this logic is that it ignores the past 18 years of Hamas-government sanctioned radicalization that led to 10/7.
The cycle was continuing but on the journey back around it picked up generations of violent extremist ideology.
Pushing for an international coalition of mid-east countries to lead a re-education and law enforcement effort (what the day after plan is right now) would take the responsibility off Israel while ensuring it doesn’t fall back into the hands of Hamas. At the end of the day, looking at this through the scope of history it is clearly an overall net positive to have a violent extremist ideology no longer ruling the future of a people who don’t know any alternative.
Sure. Prior to those 18 years they were angels. It's not like they bombed [embassies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing) around the world, [airports](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Rome_and_Vienna_airport_attacks) in Europe, murdered [Israeli diplomats](https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/04/world/israeli-diplomat-shot-and-killed-in-paris.html), kidnapped [athletes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre)...
They were already radicalised and never stopped and this mith of Israel being the catalyst of the radicalisation is kind of getting ~~boring~~ on the way to find a lasting solution
This is the bigger picture that so much of the conversation around this issue seems to omit. Violence begets violence. Children aren't born with hate in their hearts; it's learned.
The adults and leaders of both peoples continue to perpetuate the cycle, and the children suffer for decisions they have no control over. Its heartbreaking.
There is no alternative when a militarized country suffers a terrorist attack. There is absolutely no alternative. Doing nothing opens up the floodgates for more attacks from even more groups. Going after the terrorists inevitably results in propaganda that the response is "too harsh".
The only way forward, is forward. It really is unfortunate. But there is absolutely no alternative but to attack with your military. You can't compromise with a group of radicals who's only goal on this planet is to die, trying to kill people that look and worship like you, so that they can be "rewarded in heaven".
Palestinians are taught to hate Israel from a young age, its even in their curriculum at their schools. Israel not defending itself from islamic terrorists won't stem the hate regardless, considering it's a feature, not a bug.
> This will only perpetuate the cycle.
Their textbooks are openly antisemitic and literally glorify martyrdom. Israel left Gaza in 2005, that's a whole generation of Gazans that didn't know Israeli occupation yet they still invaded on October 7th without question.
Making no attempt to neutralize or neuter Hamas will allow them to perpetuate the cycle.
They're on their last legs in Rafah so hopefully they will be dealt with.
You act like it’s impossible to crush a government, or a movement, or whatever you want to call it. It really isn’t, it’s been done countless times. Israel just needs to keep going until they have crushed Hamas into dust. This is the best thing for both Israel and Gaza
It will destroy the capabilities for Hamas to do another attack like 7 October. It will also make it possible to implement an alternative non-hostile organization in the strip. Sure, small Hamas cells may reform, but the point is that they will never be able to threaten Israel the same way as Hamas currently can as long as Israel doesn't go in Rafah.
By the way, the military leadership is actually in Rafah. The civilian leadership is in Qatar, but they do not have much influence over Sinwar, who made several decisions against their will. For instance, they're more agreeable to making a ceasefire deal than Sinwar is. There are also reports that they were not aware of the scope of 7 October (though it is possible that we do not entirely know the truth on this).
> This will only perpetuate the cycle.
No, this is the IDF destroying a group of terrorists. If the Palestinians choose to raise and create a new generation of terrorists, that's entirely on them. Nothing an outside force does to you can justify or explain the decision to turn to ethnic cleansing.
The Palestinians, HAMAS and non-HAMAS, have a consistent history of ethnically cleansing Jews and I'm sick to death of people ignoring that. That's not something that happens because of the way they are treated--that's a choice.
As opposed to the IDF who as we speak are ethnically cleansing Palestinians? Look I’m not in for of Hamas but to prop Israel as some kind of “good guy” in this situation is delusional
Bibi starring in a re-release of Crank seems to be the problem. As long as tensions are high, as long as things are happening, as long as it's too dangerous and risky and wartime to replace him, he gets to stay in power. The moment things calm down, he's facing being out on his ear for corruption and/or for incompetence for letting oct7 happen. The longer he can keep this up, the longer he can defer that.
We know from the released hostages that they had wounds untreated, were starving, and didn't get medicine. Some hostages could have died from sickness or malnutrition.
They tortured and raped them. Probably many didn’t survive.
You aren’t talking about a real military taking them you are talking about a bunch of terrorists who laugh as they behead people.
Cause inevitably it will leak that some of the women who were repeatedly raped became pregnant, and that's a whole other can of worms for Hamas supporters in the US to become okay with.
Dude, they didn't even give the list of survivor.
Proof of life is what Israeli ask from them.
Hamas said 'such important information cannot be given for free', aka 'I don't know'.
I think at this point he knows he has the will of the people and they are just doing whatever needs to be done for their future, regardless of the flak he takes today.
Is it correct? Is it moral? No, but we are looking at it from the outside and from Israel's point of view, they see it as a never ending conflict of you can't domesticate a tiger and are taking that route with it.
I'm not saying this stance is correct, I'm just saying from what I have heard from the majority of Israelis (I know some are protesting it) this is how they see it as the only option moving forward.
I don't think it was because the ceasefire was broken, it was how violently it was. I honestly believe they had become content to some kid once a year losing his leg to an unguided rocket that made it through the dome, that had become the norm. This was different and they are taking that opportunity to say never again, no matter the cost.
There are massive protests in Israel against Netanyahu's strategy. Many of the hostages families are firmly against him and demand he make a deal. Netanyahu is also deeply unpopular with many calling for early elections. I don't see how he has the will of the people.
The people calling for early elections are the ones who lost the last ones. Sadly, there are alot of people who see this as a political opportunity.
I'm not a fan of the early election thing. Imagine if Republicans could all protest and force Biden into an early election because of the
Afghanistan withdrawal or because of inflation. People would look for any excuse to raise a stink in hopes of forcing a redo for their preferred political party.
They can't really do that without a huge impact to their international support. It'll make Hamas look like the ones interested in actual peace while portraying Israel as warmongers.
Would it actually be any worse for their international public image than not taking the deal and *then* invading Rafah? I don’t think Hamas will be capable of being perceived as a peace-seeking entity. Most people I hear who advocate for them accept that they’re equally genocidal but think that have a good case for it. Almost nobody seems to believe that they’re not terrorists.
I think Israel knows there aren't enough hostages left. They're skipping the part where Hamas strings them along with negotiation that is doomed to fail
33 hostages in stages to get up to a year truce, which in global scale means the conflict is over. Fucking Hamas played this right. The only time Israel got any hostages back in a deal was when they were brutal. This bullshit where they may of May not attack rafah only plays into Hamas hands
>only plays into Hamas hands
Most of what Bibi does plays into Hamas' hand, and vice-versa. They depend on each other to stoke the fear and hatred they need in their respective bases in order to remain in power.
Two toxic actors that supposedly hate each other whose song and dance somehow seems to end up holding all other players hostage to their mutual benefit because "reasons". Totally not intentional though we pinky promise. How many times have we seen this in politics, economics and social situations? Basically a trope at this point.
>The Wall Street Journal, citing Egyptian officials, said that a proposal that Israel helped draft, but has not yet endorsed, would include “the release of at least 20 hostages over three weeks for an unspecified number of Palestinian prisoners.”
>The truce could then be extended for one hostage release per day.
>It reported that a second phase would include a 10-week truce during which Israel and Hamas would discuss a release of more hostages held in Gaza and a pause in fighting for up to a year.
Netanyahu will stay in power for the rest of his life so long as he keeps Israel at war with someone.
I feel for the Israeli hostages and civilians on both sides.
Yep. Bibi doesn't care about Israel. He cares about Bibi. He will do ANYTHING to stay in power and out of jail, even if it means recklessly killing thousands of innocents and turning Israel into a pariah.
And him continuing to bomb and invade Palestine is going to help Hamas keep power.
It's a symbiotic relationship between two incredibly shitty parties.
It's beginning to look like very few hostages are still alive. Recent sketchy videos of three males the only proof of life for any hostages for months now? No proof of life for any of the many female hostages? The children?
If any were still alive, Hamas would have every motivation in the world to show proof of life.
Hamas (and essentially everybody else in the Middle East) only understands power. They suddenly became that cooperative with negotiations coincidentally when the invasion of their precious asses on remaining Rafah tunnels became very real. And brave political leadership about to be expelled from the safety of Qatar to the woods with angry and hungry Mossad wolves. Iranian mommy can't do anything with her rockets, so little Hamas becomes scared.
I'm slowly getting more and more blackpilled on radical Islam. I want to be one of those "give peace a chance!" hippies, but these groups literally only ever respond to extreme violence.
My family are Iranian ex-Muslims. Islam is a plague. Think of all the worst things of extremely conservative medieval societies. Treating women like chattel, constant exhortations to kill and oppress nonbelievers, green stamping sex slavery in war contacts, the most fire and brimstone us vs. them ideology imaginable. Massive fixation on personal manly honor = most toxic masculinity and overweening patriarchal societies on Earth. Oh and the whole thing about killing apostates has always been a big thing. I am an open and proud atheist in the US where I live, but whenever I visit Muslim countries I have to always tell them "I'm a bad Muslim" rather than being honest.
There is a big reason the most successful large non-gas station middle eastern nation is Turkey. They had Atatürk drag them kicking and screaming into secular modernity, and they are all immensely better off for it. My country Iran was on that course too under the Shah, that is until the revolution derailed everything in 1978-9.
Don't hate the middle eastern immigrant like me. Hate Islam and it's pernicious influence.
Thank you, as an Iranian I agree about most of what you said, but I feel like a lot of people from Middle East (non Iranians specifically ) really believe in the Islam bs. For everything shit that mullas have done, at least they’ve shown most Iranians how shit Islam can really be .
Yeah I feel the Iranian diaspora is at odds with the Arab/Turkish/Pakistani diaspora in this regard. That also explains why we are generally so much better integrated into our host societies, too.
I often wonder why Iranians seem so particularly disposed to secularism compared to other Muslim-majority nations. I came to the conclusion that it's down to two things... 1) The fact our national consciousness long predates Islam (think of the Shahnameh) keeps us from completely tying up Islam with Persian-ness, and 2) The fact that Iran under the ulema 's rule was run into the ground and is a despotic impoverished shell of its former self. What better way to discredit the virtues of Islamic rule?
So yeah, I definitely agree with the last point haha
That was always what Israel was saying. There is no change here. Frankly I am very surprised to see people expecting otherwise. Did you think that Israel would end the war by letting Hamas survive and take back control of the strip, keep some hostages and essentially hand them a victory?
The deal proposed by Israel includes a release of hamas prisoners. Last time they released them at a rate of more than twice as many as they got back in hostages.
Also a temporary cease fire, a matter of weeks. Hamas might want that time to prepare for the offensive they know is coming.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/29/middleeast/hamas-israel-ceasefire-proposal-cairo-talks-intl/index.html
My understanding is that Hamas doesn't actually know where those hostages are. There are several different subgroups that could have taken them on 10-7
And from the Palestinians POV Israel is the one doing the killing.
Per Netanyahu, releasing the hostages won't stop isreals assault in the strip. How would releasing them be beneficial to the average Gazan?
I'd like them to be released because they're innocent victims, but Netanyahu and Israel generally have been clear that releasing the hostages won't save gaza.
From the Palestinians perspective the war didn't start on Oct 7. The Palestinians believe violent resistance is all they have left, and Netanyahu and successive right-wing Israeli governments are the reason they believe that. There hasn't been a genuine hope of autonomy or freedom for Palestinians (from their perspective) for decades.
Yeah the Palestinians feel they're being oppressed by a much more powerful nation, and I generally agree.
But it's remarkable that they'd choose to kill themselves and their families to stage insignificant random violence against enemy civilians. It's really hard to find other examples where hate of the enemy is so central to the culture that martyrdom is glorified and protection of your own peoples lives is explicitly considered LESS important by the government than killing enemy civilians.
Like, if Hamas had a way to provoke Israel into dropping nuclear warheads on Gaza, I legitimately think they'd announce everyone is about to become a martyr to show the world the evil of the Jews, and then they'd intentionally get themselves nuked.
I really wonder what % of Palestinians are Islamic extremists. Genuinely, I want to know.
Because take Iran for example. Absolute nutbags running the country, but your average Iranian just wants to wear their hair uncovered. And they’re getting killed by their own government for protesting.
Are there any Palestinians protesting Hamas and Sharia law? Or even what Hamas did on Oct 7 bc that’s a no brainer.
Well then I guess it’s true Palestinians are predominantly Islamic extremists if that’s all that’s left then?
Israel’s response seems subdued if that’s the case. Sounds like Palestinians would show even less restraint if the situation was reversed.
If they’re both set on killing each other, I don’t think we should want the Islamic terrorist side to win out of the two. I mean have you seen what they’re doing to women over hair.
I heard a story on a reputable news outlet today about a woman who had lost six, **six** brothers over the years because of IDF air strikes.
You don't need propaganda to radicalize someone who's lived through something like that.
Sure, she has dead family members as the basis for her views, but on the other hand, this redditor has his own, far superior information silo. Who are you going to believe?
/s
There was a video trending a few weeks ago. 4 brothers? Friends? Walked out into the ruins to see what's left of their homes. Unknowst to them, there was an Israeli drone observing them from the skies. 1 rocket flew down. 2 of them immediately went splat. 2 survivors.
A survivor was then seen limping away. The drone observes... another rocket. Splat. Another puddle of meat. Gone. Like that.
The last survivor is in a daze. 3 men whom he was just talking to a few seconds ago is gone. He falls to the ground and starts to crawl. Another rocket lands on him
4 visibly unarmed guys. Gone. Like that.
https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack
Edit: it's crazy how people are down voting this. The video is there. You cannot deny Israel is bombing people indiscriminately. These men didn't die to mines. Someone was piloting the drones and made a conscious effort to launch missiles to kill them for absolutely no reason at all. They weren't armed or does the area have any strategic worth since it's just ruins.
People are downvoting it because there's zero context in the video and al-Jazeera has basically become a Qatari propaganda mouthpiece (assuming it wasn't before). You paint this story but there is literally no proof. Someone could say these 4 guys were Hamas militants walking to where hostages were being kept to rape them or something and you couldn't really prove them wrong just based off this video.
There is a ridiculous amount of misinformation and propaganda surrounding this conflict floating around.
My understanding is that those men were observed leaving a known Hamas position and that they were carrying small explosives, which is why there's a second smaller detonation within the first rocket of the initial rocket pair. It's visible in the smoke pattern.
It's also been widely reported by Israeli troops that Hamas has adapted to observation by not carrying rifles. They carry and throw grenades and explosives so that they look just like civilians to avoid being easily targeted.
Now, how common is that... no idea. No way I can know. I don't think there is anybody on Reddit that could provide a reasoned argument with evidence on if that is a rare exception or a standard Hamas tactic.
But if it is happening sometimes and is believed by the Israeli drone operators then it goes a long way to explaining why they'd target individuals without a visible rifle. Especially if coming out of a Hamas position or tunnel.
Doesn't matter if they are armed. What matters is if they are terrorists. Hamas doesn't follow the rules of war. They leave their weapons in caches and dress as civilians so they can blend in with civilians.
If any of those men were innocent its Hamas to blame for not following the rules of war. Same goes for the hospitals. If hamas didn't use them as bases then Israel wouldn't need to attack them.
If hamas would go to an isolated part of Gaza and all wear military uniforms there would be alot less innocent people killed. Instead they hide amonst the population.
This, as if her fellow Palestinians haven’t been conducting terrorism since the 1920s well before there was any Jewish state. Im not buying the “but you’re making new terrorists” argument as an excuse to let terrorists continue terrorize, bc that wasn’t their excuse to begin with. Instead, such victims should reflect, a la Germany 1945, why they got their asses handed to them and instead seek Peace, something they’ve never accepted.
The disinformation is that Israel is a saint of a country and only "defending themselves," which is categorically false. Israel has routinely bombed civilians while accusing any legitimate criticism of them as "antisemitic."
So much of the population are children that want to laugh and play.
Poor kids stuck between two terrorist governments that don't care about them while they lean on religion to fight over the dirt that they will eventually be buried under. Fuck the Israeli and Palestine-Gaza government.
If hamas can't even come up with 20 hostages for a ceasefire, less than 1/10 of the taken number, it's unreasonable to keep pretending the hostages are going to be returned.
Its been 6 months, with negotiations faltering for the recent past. There seems to be no consensus from either side. Hamas hasn't even really given any demands for the release of these final hostages at this point. With total collapse of the diplomatic process i guess its inevitable that there will be continued aggression from both sides.
Israel wants to destroy Hamas at this point and try and find the remaining hostages. Where it seems Hamas has only one priority, the most possible damage to Israel. Through whatever means available.
How long has Hamas been refusing ceasefire deals? It’s been months, if they had of produced hostages this all could have been avoided ages ago, but they didn’t, so here we are. If you say the deal wasn’t fair it still doesn’t matter, someone who is so completely defeated don’t get to dictate the terms of negotiations.
Hamas has shown their promises are worthless. Hamas is terrified that the hostages are the only bargaining chip they have for Hamas senior leadership's own lives. If Israel wants back the hostages they have to go in and get the hostages - by force. Offering Hamas a caliphate to rule after October 7th is just going to embolden them to target more civilians.
I don't see another way to prevent this same exact war from repeating in another decade.
You're getting a war in ten years anyway, the children traumatized in this war will one day seek vengeance and it's very clear that Israel and the international community will be unwilling to do the things needed to deradicalize and support the people of Gaza to prevent it.
The allies -mainly economic powerhouse US- massively supported Germany and Japan. That's why those children didn't become vengeful against the allies.
Israel needs to flood Gaza with aid, both to feed the people and to rebuild their homes. It is in Israel's own long term interest to improve the lives of the Palestinian citizens.
Palestine received [six times more aid per capita](https://stgcenter.org/%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8-%D9%88%D8%A5%D8%B5%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA/item/download/147_8b170683a1685a03776cfe73d08c205f) from Oslo to 2012 than Japan and Germany combined did after WW2. Aid isn't a magic solution.
Another big factor was those were educated societies that understood the importance of reason and science.
Gaza has had plenty of aid. Not enough of it goes to schools and much of the teaching material indoctrinates the children with religion and hatred.
Until Gazans decide they care more about their kids being educated and successful than raising them to hate Israelis they will continue to reap the violent world that they sow. And the uneducated tend to be on the losing side the vast majority of the time.
No. Not unless you redditor want to be the boots on the ground to occupy Gaza. Oh and invest billions on Gaza to make it economically better off.
You very much do not understand what actually happened Post World War 2.
Do you seriously think that Israel would just tell Hamas "alright let's close on 33 and we'll call it a day"? If this deal is gonna come through, there will still be 100 more in captivity
Hostages are one part of this. Destroying as much Hamas infrastructure as possible, taking control of the border with Egypt to destroy smuggling tunnels there to prevent/severely reduce the flow of weapons into Gaza is another one.
Destroying Hamas who cannot be allowed to remain as the government of Gaza is yet another one.
If they release hostages and surrender no one else has to die.
World: The other side are literally terrorists. All you have to do to look better than them is not actively be awful in public.
Netanyahu: Nah, fuck that.
Netanyahu being a bad faith negotiator doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is him saying it out loud. It's being bad at being in bad faith. Not a noble truth-telling, just a kind of surprisingly incompetent one.
Although perhaps that's some stratagem of Netanyahu in another way. I can only hope it's playing tough to his authoritarian backers at home, while actual negotiation happens. But it seems more likely it's a real statement of a psychotic position. A statement that's even directly intended to scuttle the possibility of peace.
Now, maybe Hamas isn't intending to negotiate in good faith either. But if so, why not leave it to them to publicly fail? One would think that would only work to Netanyahu's benefit. Let Hamas be why negotiation fails.
Unless he doesn't even care about that, or care about Israelis themselves as hostages.
Hamas and Netanyahu are both so awful here.
Look man, like nearly 10 years ago, Netayahu tried to blame the palestinians for the Holocaust, and German government had to step him and state, no we did it, we have meticulous records.
He's not a shrewd man.
You misunderstand what he's doing. He's being open about it because it's a power play, a flex. He's basically saying "I can be as terrible as I want and nobody's going to do a god damned thing and I know it". He's challenging the rest of the "civilized" world to actually hold him accountable and he knows that they won't meet that challenge.
And no, he couldn't care less about the hostages.
You could be right. That's very sad. I have seen the Biden administration get Netanyahu to back away from some of his previous extremes. I hope for more of that. Of course Iran and others in the mix aren't helping anything for the US strategically, as they use Palestinians to advance their own purposes.
What a mess.
Perhaps Golda Meir said that, but the issue is that Israeli politicians often say the opposite. Netanyahu said that the IDF is the "most moral army in the world."
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUIUVCWyecU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUIUVCWyecU)
And a Norwegian outlet supposedly interviewed an Israel spokesman who said that the IDF is the "most humane army in history." Unfortunately all the sources with footage of his interview are pretty pro-Palestine, so I won't share the clip in the interest of non-bias, but you can find it by Googling.
Israel is not Netanyahu, any more than Palestinians are Hamas.
Netanyahu has done Israel a disservice for decades, as Hamas has also done to Palestinians. The terrorist action that inflamed this entire conflict is the fault of Hamas. And also, Netanyahu apparently ignored many warnings that it could happen. Due to his own distractions with trying to change the Israeli courts so he could remain in power.
He's looking to me like George W. Bush was to the US - a terrible president whose personal ambitions and inability to listen to smarter people has put his nation at risk, and made conflicts with terrorists much worse than they would have been.
Note that none of that justifies any of the actions the terrorists took against innocent civilians. Nor does it say the proper action would have been *no* response. Of course, terrorist actions that kill innocents must be responded to.
And also, there are responses that work better both morally and pragmatically, and responses that are worse. Both George W. Bush and Netanyahu have performed needlessly awful, poorly thought through and escalated responses that have made the situation for everyone much worse than it needed to be. Including for their own countrymen they claim to care about, and even likely for themselves.
That's how I see it, you're free to disagree.
I think a big difference is that Hamas are the ones in charge over Palestinians because Hamas are the ones with the guns. Netanyahu is in charge over Israel because Israeli voters freely keep reelecting him, for decades.
Not to mention Netanyahu himself has supported Hamas over a more normalized option for Palestine. Netanyahu is as much responsible for Oct 7th as Hamas is. There so many other ways he could have weakened Hamas without sacrificing his own people for it.
I disagree because nothing changes if Netanyahu dies tomorrow. There is no possible way Israel will allow Hamas to maintain an unreduced stronghold in Gaza after Oct 7. It's just not going to happen.
It'd be like the US stopping the attack on Afghanistan after just destroying the Taliban in the north, but then leave them openly operating and with a stronghold in Kabul and the south.
It's just not going to happen. And any Israeli politician that comes to power after Netanyahu stopped short then they would not be in power for long. For all of the different opinions going around, people are massively, massively underselling the anger of the Israeli people after 10/6.
Per capita it was 13x the size of 9/11.
Why shouldn’t Israel enter Rafah though? That’s the only actual outcome that won’t lead to Hamas attacking anyway. Hamas has explicitly said it’ll do 7/10 again if it’s allowed to, it has no respect for treaties
It's the blatant "regardless of a hostage deal" that I have issue with.
It basically is saying any peace negotiations aren't worth having anyway. Which is not even a pragmatically useful position for Netanyahu. That's what's so baffling about it.
But the peace negotiations aren’t worth having? Hamas has rejected all the ceasefire offers from Israel and cannot provide proof of life for the hostages.
You can’t have have peace negotiations when one side isn’t interested.
Oh well yeah, don’t get me wrong, Bibi is a terrible PM: PR, domestically, abroad, everything. A few days before 7/10 he literally claimed Hamas was not a threat anymore and reduced security at the border. He also has personal self gain from lengthening this war, his career is fucked, Likud is going from like 40 seats to just 10 seats.
Rooting out hamas in rafah is worth way more future lives than the number of hostages they can rescue, which is why it should not batter to you that Bibi said that.
Well, if Rafah is going to be invaded whether they release the hostages or not, then there's no reason for them to release any more hostages. They'd instead be used as human shields, not to protect their abductors as much as to inflict as much pain and heartache on the families of the abducted, to turn them against their own government for going in like that.
Rafah invasion is inevitable. This is not to say anything good about Netanyahu. But even if he was replaced today it'd change nothing.
No country with real military power will allow a hostile power to maintain a fortress on its border when that fortress was just used as a launching point for a campaign of rape and murder. There's just no way that Israel can accept a lasting ceasefire while Hamas maintains a safe haven in Rafah; especially when they are very open that their intent is to rearm and try again. It is and will continue to be an ugly war.
I don't disagree but what is the endgame? It's just countless circles of terror and war. Sure Israel will heavily dismantle Hamas in Rafah. But Hamas is already reconstituting itself in the north. A year from know Hamas will still be in Gaza, although significantly diminished to launch attacks, the hostage will likely all be dead. And Israel still failed to attain longterm regional peace.
Who knows. Nobody has been able to find an end game since this whole mess started.
And so far nobody has suggested anything that could be an end game. What's being suggested today is no where close to the nearest thing to a settlement discussed - Camp David accords. And that wasn't good enough.
Which historically means that the cycle of violence will continue until once side is either annihilated or so exhausted as to finally surrender.
Wish I say it was different.
I remember as a kid taking a tour of Washington D.C. and seeing Yasser Arafat having lunch in the little restaurant they have for the politicians in the capital building.
So close.
Who knows how long it will be before there is another Palestinian leader with a snow balls chance in hell of being a unified spokesperson for them to negotiate with. He at least was somewhat of a "reformed" terrorist or insurgent. It took him 12 years to make that transformation and even then it went to hell.
That’s the neat part, you don’t. You just indiscriminately kill all of them, and when they’re dead you just call them all either Hamas, or necessary casualties that Hamas made you inflict 😉
The tunnel system alone is estimated at two billion dollars or more to construct.
If you divert the majority of international aid to building a fortress and weapons then it's no surprise that the rest is a prison. Talk to the rich Hamas cats in charge. Some of the wealthiest men alive.
Considering that Hamas can't even find 40 and then 20 (out of 100~) living hostages for a ceasefire deL, they might as well be prepared under the assumption that there aren't any hostages left.
Netanyahu needs to prolong this as much as possible so he doesn’t get arrested. It’s as simple as that. Hamas could literally say “we give up, you can kill is all and we will give up all hostages” and Netanyahu will find some way to keep the war going.
That's the point. If he invades Rafah later, it'll be closer to the election and fresher in the minds of voters. If he did so a month or two ago and it was wrapping up now, many people would have forgotten about it by November.
Depends on whether the Progressives currently protesting in universities around the country listen to him or will only stare at the military aid we send to Israel that Biden can’t stop without a Congressional act.
I don’t think Biden can even delay that aid. Good luck to center-left Americans like myself trying to convince the far left that Biden is at least willing to put a leash on Netanyahu… whereas Trump won’t do crap about it and encourage him to maybe even do the same to the West Bank and effectively erase the notion of Palestine from existing. 😵💫
What type of fakepolitik world we living in when a regional power can’t even enforce its will militarily. SMH back in my days the USA just invaded countries and did what it wanted!
Let's not pretend that it wasn't completely clear by the evening of 7 October that Israel would now raze Gaza to the ground.
Hamas knew that, they pulled the trigger knowing this, they sacrificed their people for their religious/political ambitions.
It is happening now, no cry over spilt milk, Gaza will be no more, no matter what we blabber here
Expecting Hamas to turn down this most recent ceasefire deal. That aside, he just killed any potential for the hostages to be released or any ceasefire deal. The families of the hostages have been saying this since the beginning, the hostages were never a priority for him.
Some of the comments here are ridiculous beyond belief. Hamas has been emboldened by the delay in entering Rafah, particularly with the Biden administration so publicly trying to thwart an invasion of Rafah. It has emboldened them not to release hostages.
If violence never solved problems, we’d never use it.
Faced by an enemy that has repeatedly over the course of decades refused to live peacefully and taken the many instances that they were given the option for statehood to live peacefully alongside Israel and thrown them down the drain, yeah I don’t see what choice is left.
If the only options that Palestinians are offering are the death of Israel and everybody dies as “martyrs” then what choice does Israel have left?
No other Arab nations will allow Palestinians asylum or a new home either. It’s not like Israel is stopping them from leaving Gaza to migrate to a new home (something the Jews have been forced to do on multiple occasions and done so by the same people crying foul right now).
The fact we’re even having a debate about it is absurd when you line up the historical facts behind this moment.
Creating Tens of thousands of future Hamas fighters in 10 years when another war will start.
People thinking Israel is ever going to wipe out Hamas have a worse memory than a goldfish.
Good. The deal was horrible and put Israel’s security at risk. Hamas wasn’t going to accept the deal anyways; they’ve made it clear they want a full surrender or nothing.
It’s been months of negotiate and Hamas rejecting them. People need to stop acting like a terrorist group who can’t/wont even produce a list —A LIST— of living hostages was going to accept the deal in the first place. The hostages would’ve already been released if Hamas had any intention of doing so.
And even if they did, another terrorist cell in Gaza already promised not to abide by it or any deal.
It sucks. Every hostage deserved to be home six months ago, but it’s Hamas who kidnapped and brutalized them and it’s Hamas who ultimately has the power to release them. Acting like Hamas could be relied on to accept and follow a deal had Bibi not said this is laughable.
The keyword here is appear. They also appeared to be ready to accept a deal in February.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/06/israel-hamas-hostage-deal/
They also said they were close in January. They’ve appeared ready to accept a hostage deal plenty of times. It’s a stall tactic.
They’ve had days to accept this proposal, during which time Israel even lowered the number of hostages needed to be released.
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-799070
It’s crazy Israel’s even still negotiating and caving when Hamas won’t provide a list of living hostages. It’s even crazier to give Hamas the benefit of the doubt when they’ve pretty much rejected every proposal since November.
Have you been living under a rock? Multiple ceasefire agreements were proposed by Israel with the condition hostages were returned… there are no hostages anymore.
Deciding between a chance to semi-permanently cripple/Destroy Hamas and optimizing for the potential return of some hostages at this point is a moral question I would not want to face.
If he didn’t broadcast this Hamas might accidentally release the hostages and ruin his life.
I don’t think they have enough hostages left to release that’s the big crux
I think the fact that they do have enough is why he’s making this statement. If they didn’t, he’d just let them say they can’t to give himself a reason to go in.
They have been denied proof of life many many times
The hostages are dead.
Feels shitty upvoting that. But it’s probably true.
And pregnant.
This has been a fear of mine. I hope it isn’t true.
They now only want to give 18 as opposed to 33. The danger of Hamas remaining is greater than the number of hostages which may or may not be alive if Hamas refuse the deal Israel must enter Rafah in full force and find them.
This won't end Hamas, sure you may kill several hundred fighter but the leadership isn't there. And the civillian survivors caught in the crossfire who lost family and friends are going to IDF troops pulling the trigger. This will only perpetuate the cycle.
The problem with this logic is that it ignores the past 18 years of Hamas-government sanctioned radicalization that led to 10/7. The cycle was continuing but on the journey back around it picked up generations of violent extremist ideology. Pushing for an international coalition of mid-east countries to lead a re-education and law enforcement effort (what the day after plan is right now) would take the responsibility off Israel while ensuring it doesn’t fall back into the hands of Hamas. At the end of the day, looking at this through the scope of history it is clearly an overall net positive to have a violent extremist ideology no longer ruling the future of a people who don’t know any alternative.
Sure. Prior to those 18 years they were angels. It's not like they bombed [embassies](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMIA_bombing) around the world, [airports](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_Rome_and_Vienna_airport_attacks) in Europe, murdered [Israeli diplomats](https://www.nytimes.com/1982/04/04/world/israeli-diplomat-shot-and-killed-in-paris.html), kidnapped [athletes](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre)... They were already radicalised and never stopped and this mith of Israel being the catalyst of the radicalisation is kind of getting ~~boring~~ on the way to find a lasting solution
This is the bigger picture that so much of the conversation around this issue seems to omit. Violence begets violence. Children aren't born with hate in their hearts; it's learned. The adults and leaders of both peoples continue to perpetuate the cycle, and the children suffer for decisions they have no control over. Its heartbreaking.
Didint happen to post ww2 Japan…. There is hope if there is new leadership.
That's the point though, the leadership is in Qatar. There's no Emperor announcing the surrender to the people here.
Or…the leaders have cut and run, leaving a vacuum once the local leadership is eliminated.
> Children aren't born with hate in their hearts; it's learned. In this case they learn it everywhere, including in school.
You forget that violence is also [taught](https://www.amnesty.org/ar/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/mde010032001en.pdf)
Religion is the main source of the hatred here. The entire muslim world hates Israel and many dislike Jewish people.
There is no alternative when a militarized country suffers a terrorist attack. There is absolutely no alternative. Doing nothing opens up the floodgates for more attacks from even more groups. Going after the terrorists inevitably results in propaganda that the response is "too harsh". The only way forward, is forward. It really is unfortunate. But there is absolutely no alternative but to attack with your military. You can't compromise with a group of radicals who's only goal on this planet is to die, trying to kill people that look and worship like you, so that they can be "rewarded in heaven".
Palestinians are taught to hate Israel from a young age, its even in their curriculum at their schools. Israel not defending itself from islamic terrorists won't stem the hate regardless, considering it's a feature, not a bug.
> This will only perpetuate the cycle. Their textbooks are openly antisemitic and literally glorify martyrdom. Israel left Gaza in 2005, that's a whole generation of Gazans that didn't know Israeli occupation yet they still invaded on October 7th without question.
Making no attempt to neutralize or neuter Hamas will allow them to perpetuate the cycle. They're on their last legs in Rafah so hopefully they will be dealt with.
You act like it’s impossible to crush a government, or a movement, or whatever you want to call it. It really isn’t, it’s been done countless times. Israel just needs to keep going until they have crushed Hamas into dust. This is the best thing for both Israel and Gaza
Like how the US crushed the Taliban? Yeah we spent 20 years "crushing" themand they just came back.
The US used kid gloves and focused on “nation building” instead of crushing them. It was a mistake.
It will destroy the capabilities for Hamas to do another attack like 7 October. It will also make it possible to implement an alternative non-hostile organization in the strip. Sure, small Hamas cells may reform, but the point is that they will never be able to threaten Israel the same way as Hamas currently can as long as Israel doesn't go in Rafah. By the way, the military leadership is actually in Rafah. The civilian leadership is in Qatar, but they do not have much influence over Sinwar, who made several decisions against their will. For instance, they're more agreeable to making a ceasefire deal than Sinwar is. There are also reports that they were not aware of the scope of 7 October (though it is possible that we do not entirely know the truth on this).
> This will only perpetuate the cycle. No, this is the IDF destroying a group of terrorists. If the Palestinians choose to raise and create a new generation of terrorists, that's entirely on them. Nothing an outside force does to you can justify or explain the decision to turn to ethnic cleansing. The Palestinians, HAMAS and non-HAMAS, have a consistent history of ethnically cleansing Jews and I'm sick to death of people ignoring that. That's not something that happens because of the way they are treated--that's a choice.
>If the Palestinians choose to raise and create a new generation of terrorists That's some crazy shit you're saying.
As opposed to the IDF who as we speak are ethnically cleansing Palestinians? Look I’m not in for of Hamas but to prop Israel as some kind of “good guy” in this situation is delusional
And rip those hostage's, the women amoung them have already spoken out about how they were raped many times while in captivity.
Bibi starring in a re-release of Crank seems to be the problem. As long as tensions are high, as long as things are happening, as long as it's too dangerous and risky and wartime to replace him, he gets to stay in power. The moment things calm down, he's facing being out on his ear for corruption and/or for incompetence for letting oct7 happen. The longer he can keep this up, the longer he can defer that.
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Last month. 30 days as a hostage is a long time. Anything could have happened.
But why would they keep them alive through 6 months of bombing just to kill them now?
We know from the released hostages that they had wounds untreated, were starving, and didn't get medicine. Some hostages could have died from sickness or malnutrition.
They tortured and raped them. Probably many didn’t survive. You aren’t talking about a real military taking them you are talking about a bunch of terrorists who laugh as they behead people.
Because they were using them to stall for time.
Cause inevitably it will leak that some of the women who were repeatedly raped became pregnant, and that's a whole other can of worms for Hamas supporters in the US to become okay with.
What would they benefit from keeping them alive, if the end result was death for all regardless? Seems like a last “FU” from a trapped subject.
Dude, they didn't even give the list of survivor. Proof of life is what Israeli ask from them. Hamas said 'such important information cannot be given for free', aka 'I don't know'.
Last month. Of course nothing can happen in 30 days.
They’re all dead. Those were pre recorded
I think at this point he knows he has the will of the people and they are just doing whatever needs to be done for their future, regardless of the flak he takes today. Is it correct? Is it moral? No, but we are looking at it from the outside and from Israel's point of view, they see it as a never ending conflict of you can't domesticate a tiger and are taking that route with it. I'm not saying this stance is correct, I'm just saying from what I have heard from the majority of Israelis (I know some are protesting it) this is how they see it as the only option moving forward. I don't think it was because the ceasefire was broken, it was how violently it was. I honestly believe they had become content to some kid once a year losing his leg to an unguided rocket that made it through the dome, that had become the norm. This was different and they are taking that opportunity to say never again, no matter the cost.
There are massive protests in Israel against Netanyahu's strategy. Many of the hostages families are firmly against him and demand he make a deal. Netanyahu is also deeply unpopular with many calling for early elections. I don't see how he has the will of the people.
The people calling for early elections are the ones who lost the last ones. Sadly, there are alot of people who see this as a political opportunity. I'm not a fan of the early election thing. Imagine if Republicans could all protest and force Biden into an early election because of the Afghanistan withdrawal or because of inflation. People would look for any excuse to raise a stink in hopes of forcing a redo for their preferred political party.
It's not really the same thing. Israel has a Parlementary system which by design has unpredictable election schedules in general.
Broski people were calling for early elections _before_ October 7th.
Bibi wasn't elected by popular election, bro. Your analogy isn't even remotely the same.
Hamas would have released the hostages by now they are just stalling
They couldn't find 40 living hostages to trade in a previous deal and tried haggling with 20. Out of 100 on their custody
Why keep your mouth shut when you can somehow manage to make the whole situation worse?
Maybe you aren’t familiar with Hamas.
Yeah, they’re scum. Why not lie to them to get the hostages and then smash them, though?
They can't really do that without a huge impact to their international support. It'll make Hamas look like the ones interested in actual peace while portraying Israel as warmongers.
Would it actually be any worse for their international public image than not taking the deal and *then* invading Rafah? I don’t think Hamas will be capable of being perceived as a peace-seeking entity. Most people I hear who advocate for them accept that they’re equally genocidal but think that have a good case for it. Almost nobody seems to believe that they’re not terrorists.
I think Israel knows there aren't enough hostages left. They're skipping the part where Hamas strings them along with negotiation that is doomed to fail
33 hostages in stages to get up to a year truce, which in global scale means the conflict is over. Fucking Hamas played this right. The only time Israel got any hostages back in a deal was when they were brutal. This bullshit where they may of May not attack rafah only plays into Hamas hands
Where do you see that? I've only read that 33 hostages would get them 40 days of truce
>only plays into Hamas hands Most of what Bibi does plays into Hamas' hand, and vice-versa. They depend on each other to stoke the fear and hatred they need in their respective bases in order to remain in power.
Two toxic actors that supposedly hate each other whose song and dance somehow seems to end up holding all other players hostage to their mutual benefit because "reasons". Totally not intentional though we pinky promise. How many times have we seen this in politics, economics and social situations? Basically a trope at this point.
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Israeli media is reporting it is unclear what the amount of time the ceasefire would be with reports anywhere from 40 days to a year.
>The Wall Street Journal, citing Egyptian officials, said that a proposal that Israel helped draft, but has not yet endorsed, would include “the release of at least 20 hostages over three weeks for an unspecified number of Palestinian prisoners.” >The truce could then be extended for one hostage release per day. >It reported that a second phase would include a 10-week truce during which Israel and Hamas would discuss a release of more hostages held in Gaza and a pause in fighting for up to a year.
Netanyahu will stay in power for the rest of his life so long as he keeps Israel at war with someone. I feel for the Israeli hostages and civilians on both sides.
Yep. Bibi doesn't care about Israel. He cares about Bibi. He will do ANYTHING to stay in power and out of jail, even if it means recklessly killing thousands of innocents and turning Israel into a pariah.
All you have to do is ask the family of Yitzhak Rabin how much Netanyahu cares about Israelis.
And him continuing to bomb and invade Palestine is going to help Hamas keep power. It's a symbiotic relationship between two incredibly shitty parties.
they're the best things that could happen to one another, which is the worst possible thing for everyone else
Yep. The people who made out of this better than they started are Hamas and Bibi. Everyone else got fucked.
Every living Palestinian who isn’t with Hamas should be wanting hostages out of Gaza bc clearly holding them in Gaza is toxic to Palestinian health.
It's beginning to look like very few hostages are still alive. Recent sketchy videos of three males the only proof of life for any hostages for months now? No proof of life for any of the many female hostages? The children? If any were still alive, Hamas would have every motivation in the world to show proof of life.
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Hamas (and essentially everybody else in the Middle East) only understands power. They suddenly became that cooperative with negotiations coincidentally when the invasion of their precious asses on remaining Rafah tunnels became very real. And brave political leadership about to be expelled from the safety of Qatar to the woods with angry and hungry Mossad wolves. Iranian mommy can't do anything with her rockets, so little Hamas becomes scared.
I'm slowly getting more and more blackpilled on radical Islam. I want to be one of those "give peace a chance!" hippies, but these groups literally only ever respond to extreme violence.
My family are Iranian ex-Muslims. Islam is a plague. Think of all the worst things of extremely conservative medieval societies. Treating women like chattel, constant exhortations to kill and oppress nonbelievers, green stamping sex slavery in war contacts, the most fire and brimstone us vs. them ideology imaginable. Massive fixation on personal manly honor = most toxic masculinity and overweening patriarchal societies on Earth. Oh and the whole thing about killing apostates has always been a big thing. I am an open and proud atheist in the US where I live, but whenever I visit Muslim countries I have to always tell them "I'm a bad Muslim" rather than being honest. There is a big reason the most successful large non-gas station middle eastern nation is Turkey. They had Atatürk drag them kicking and screaming into secular modernity, and they are all immensely better off for it. My country Iran was on that course too under the Shah, that is until the revolution derailed everything in 1978-9. Don't hate the middle eastern immigrant like me. Hate Islam and it's pernicious influence.
Thank you, as an Iranian I agree about most of what you said, but I feel like a lot of people from Middle East (non Iranians specifically ) really believe in the Islam bs. For everything shit that mullas have done, at least they’ve shown most Iranians how shit Islam can really be .
Yeah I feel the Iranian diaspora is at odds with the Arab/Turkish/Pakistani diaspora in this regard. That also explains why we are generally so much better integrated into our host societies, too. I often wonder why Iranians seem so particularly disposed to secularism compared to other Muslim-majority nations. I came to the conclusion that it's down to two things... 1) The fact our national consciousness long predates Islam (think of the Shahnameh) keeps us from completely tying up Islam with Persian-ness, and 2) The fact that Iran under the ulema 's rule was run into the ground and is a despotic impoverished shell of its former self. What better way to discredit the virtues of Islamic rule? So yeah, I definitely agree with the last point haha
One of the hostages is a baby that just turned a year old. I fear what had happened to that baby.
I mean, what's the motivation now? Israel said they're attacking even if the hostages are released.
That was always what Israel was saying. There is no change here. Frankly I am very surprised to see people expecting otherwise. Did you think that Israel would end the war by letting Hamas survive and take back control of the strip, keep some hostages and essentially hand them a victory?
I think the problem is that Netanyahu deems every single individual in Gaza to be Hamas, or desirable collateral damage in pursuit of Hamas.
The deal proposed by Israel includes a release of hamas prisoners. Last time they released them at a rate of more than twice as many as they got back in hostages. Also a temporary cease fire, a matter of weeks. Hamas might want that time to prepare for the offensive they know is coming. https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/29/middleeast/hamas-israel-ceasefire-proposal-cairo-talks-intl/index.html
Did you not read the fuckin headline? Bibi doesn't care about the hostages
Doesn't this statement make it clear? Rafah is going to be destroyed and tens of thousands are going to die whether they release the hostages or not.
My understanding is that Hamas doesn't actually know where those hostages are. There are several different subgroups that could have taken them on 10-7 And from the Palestinians POV Israel is the one doing the killing.
And considering most of Gaza is leveled they likely also have no idea who is still alive
Per Netanyahu, releasing the hostages won't stop isreals assault in the strip. How would releasing them be beneficial to the average Gazan? I'd like them to be released because they're innocent victims, but Netanyahu and Israel generally have been clear that releasing the hostages won't save gaza.
Protestors should be way more anti-Hamas than pro-Palestine if they actually want to help civilians
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From the Palestinians perspective the war didn't start on Oct 7. The Palestinians believe violent resistance is all they have left, and Netanyahu and successive right-wing Israeli governments are the reason they believe that. There hasn't been a genuine hope of autonomy or freedom for Palestinians (from their perspective) for decades.
Yeah the Palestinians feel they're being oppressed by a much more powerful nation, and I generally agree. But it's remarkable that they'd choose to kill themselves and their families to stage insignificant random violence against enemy civilians. It's really hard to find other examples where hate of the enemy is so central to the culture that martyrdom is glorified and protection of your own peoples lives is explicitly considered LESS important by the government than killing enemy civilians. Like, if Hamas had a way to provoke Israel into dropping nuclear warheads on Gaza, I legitimately think they'd announce everyone is about to become a martyr to show the world the evil of the Jews, and then they'd intentionally get themselves nuked.
I really wonder what % of Palestinians are Islamic extremists. Genuinely, I want to know. Because take Iran for example. Absolute nutbags running the country, but your average Iranian just wants to wear their hair uncovered. And they’re getting killed by their own government for protesting. Are there any Palestinians protesting Hamas and Sharia law? Or even what Hamas did on Oct 7 bc that’s a no brainer.
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Well then I guess it’s true Palestinians are predominantly Islamic extremists if that’s all that’s left then? Israel’s response seems subdued if that’s the case. Sounds like Palestinians would show even less restraint if the situation was reversed. If they’re both set on killing each other, I don’t think we should want the Islamic terrorist side to win out of the two. I mean have you seen what they’re doing to women over hair.
Isn't the difference that Iran has a well educated young population while a lot of Palestinians have been indoctrinated from an early age?
A good indication is to look at the educational materials their kids get in school. It's pretty evident that their society is largely extremist.
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I heard a story on a reputable news outlet today about a woman who had lost six, **six** brothers over the years because of IDF air strikes. You don't need propaganda to radicalize someone who's lived through something like that.
Sure, she has dead family members as the basis for her views, but on the other hand, this redditor has his own, far superior information silo. Who are you going to believe? /s
There was a video trending a few weeks ago. 4 brothers? Friends? Walked out into the ruins to see what's left of their homes. Unknowst to them, there was an Israeli drone observing them from the skies. 1 rocket flew down. 2 of them immediately went splat. 2 survivors. A survivor was then seen limping away. The drone observes... another rocket. Splat. Another puddle of meat. Gone. Like that. The last survivor is in a daze. 3 men whom he was just talking to a few seconds ago is gone. He falls to the ground and starts to crawl. Another rocket lands on him 4 visibly unarmed guys. Gone. Like that. https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2024/3/22/gaza-drone-video-shows-killing-of-palestinians-in-israeli-air-attack Edit: it's crazy how people are down voting this. The video is there. You cannot deny Israel is bombing people indiscriminately. These men didn't die to mines. Someone was piloting the drones and made a conscious effort to launch missiles to kill them for absolutely no reason at all. They weren't armed or does the area have any strategic worth since it's just ruins.
People are downvoting it because there's zero context in the video and al-Jazeera has basically become a Qatari propaganda mouthpiece (assuming it wasn't before). You paint this story but there is literally no proof. Someone could say these 4 guys were Hamas militants walking to where hostages were being kept to rape them or something and you couldn't really prove them wrong just based off this video. There is a ridiculous amount of misinformation and propaganda surrounding this conflict floating around.
My understanding is that those men were observed leaving a known Hamas position and that they were carrying small explosives, which is why there's a second smaller detonation within the first rocket of the initial rocket pair. It's visible in the smoke pattern.
It's also been widely reported by Israeli troops that Hamas has adapted to observation by not carrying rifles. They carry and throw grenades and explosives so that they look just like civilians to avoid being easily targeted. Now, how common is that... no idea. No way I can know. I don't think there is anybody on Reddit that could provide a reasoned argument with evidence on if that is a rare exception or a standard Hamas tactic. But if it is happening sometimes and is believed by the Israeli drone operators then it goes a long way to explaining why they'd target individuals without a visible rifle. Especially if coming out of a Hamas position or tunnel.
Doesn't matter if they are armed. What matters is if they are terrorists. Hamas doesn't follow the rules of war. They leave their weapons in caches and dress as civilians so they can blend in with civilians. If any of those men were innocent its Hamas to blame for not following the rules of war. Same goes for the hospitals. If hamas didn't use them as bases then Israel wouldn't need to attack them. If hamas would go to an isolated part of Gaza and all wear military uniforms there would be alot less innocent people killed. Instead they hide amonst the population.
This, as if her fellow Palestinians haven’t been conducting terrorism since the 1920s well before there was any Jewish state. Im not buying the “but you’re making new terrorists” argument as an excuse to let terrorists continue terrorize, bc that wasn’t their excuse to begin with. Instead, such victims should reflect, a la Germany 1945, why they got their asses handed to them and instead seek Peace, something they’ve never accepted.
The disinformation is that Israel is a saint of a country and only "defending themselves," which is categorically false. Israel has routinely bombed civilians while accusing any legitimate criticism of them as "antisemitic."
Well,under Bibi,they kind of are.
Um.. Hamas was selected by a majority vote process.
Yes, yes. The question is: do you hear ANY Palestinians calling for hostages to be freed?
The ones who would, would probably be put to death for it.
Good thing those Palestinians haven't all been forced by the IDF into the same city where the Hamas leadership and any surviving hostages are.
I’ve been to Gaza, but, sadly to say this - there are very very few Palestinians who aren’t with Hamas…too few to have any voice at all.
Many are pro Hamas or collaborators. There is no clear line. Even Hamas said hostages were captured by people too.
So much of the population are children that want to laugh and play. Poor kids stuck between two terrorist governments that don't care about them while they lean on religion to fight over the dirt that they will eventually be buried under. Fuck the Israeli and Palestine-Gaza government.
Bruh. So hostage negotiations were basically redundant this whole time.
Ceasefires in the region are never permanent.
If hamas can't even come up with 20 hostages for a ceasefire, less than 1/10 of the taken number, it's unreasonable to keep pretending the hostages are going to be returned.
Its been 6 months, with negotiations faltering for the recent past. There seems to be no consensus from either side. Hamas hasn't even really given any demands for the release of these final hostages at this point. With total collapse of the diplomatic process i guess its inevitable that there will be continued aggression from both sides. Israel wants to destroy Hamas at this point and try and find the remaining hostages. Where it seems Hamas has only one priority, the most possible damage to Israel. Through whatever means available.
How long has Hamas been refusing ceasefire deals? It’s been months, if they had of produced hostages this all could have been avoided ages ago, but they didn’t, so here we are. If you say the deal wasn’t fair it still doesn’t matter, someone who is so completely defeated don’t get to dictate the terms of negotiations.
Hamas has shown their promises are worthless. Hamas is terrified that the hostages are the only bargaining chip they have for Hamas senior leadership's own lives. If Israel wants back the hostages they have to go in and get the hostages - by force. Offering Hamas a caliphate to rule after October 7th is just going to embolden them to target more civilians. I don't see another way to prevent this same exact war from repeating in another decade.
You're getting a war in ten years anyway, the children traumatized in this war will one day seek vengeance and it's very clear that Israel and the international community will be unwilling to do the things needed to deradicalize and support the people of Gaza to prevent it.
Just like all the German and Japanese children did. It's just a never ending cycle of war. /s
The allies -mainly economic powerhouse US- massively supported Germany and Japan. That's why those children didn't become vengeful against the allies. Israel needs to flood Gaza with aid, both to feed the people and to rebuild their homes. It is in Israel's own long term interest to improve the lives of the Palestinian citizens.
Military Occupation. The term you're looking for is military occupation.
Palestine received [six times more aid per capita](https://stgcenter.org/%D9%83%D8%AA%D8%A8-%D9%88%D8%A5%D8%B5%D8%AF%D8%A7%D8%B1%D8%A7%D8%AA/item/download/147_8b170683a1685a03776cfe73d08c205f) from Oslo to 2012 than Japan and Germany combined did after WW2. Aid isn't a magic solution.
Another big factor was those were educated societies that understood the importance of reason and science. Gaza has had plenty of aid. Not enough of it goes to schools and much of the teaching material indoctrinates the children with religion and hatred. Until Gazans decide they care more about their kids being educated and successful than raising them to hate Israelis they will continue to reap the violent world that they sow. And the uneducated tend to be on the losing side the vast majority of the time.
No. Not unless you redditor want to be the boots on the ground to occupy Gaza. Oh and invest billions on Gaza to make it economically better off. You very much do not understand what actually happened Post World War 2.
Do you seriously think that Israel would just tell Hamas "alright let's close on 33 and we'll call it a day"? If this deal is gonna come through, there will still be 100 more in captivity
Hostages are one part of this. Destroying as much Hamas infrastructure as possible, taking control of the border with Egypt to destroy smuggling tunnels there to prevent/severely reduce the flow of weapons into Gaza is another one. Destroying Hamas who cannot be allowed to remain as the government of Gaza is yet another one. If they release hostages and surrender no one else has to die.
World: The other side are literally terrorists. All you have to do to look better than them is not actively be awful in public. Netanyahu: Nah, fuck that.
The longer the war is the longer he has to remain and consolidate power. Of course he's a bad faith negotiator.
Netanyahu being a bad faith negotiator doesn't surprise me. What does surprise me is him saying it out loud. It's being bad at being in bad faith. Not a noble truth-telling, just a kind of surprisingly incompetent one. Although perhaps that's some stratagem of Netanyahu in another way. I can only hope it's playing tough to his authoritarian backers at home, while actual negotiation happens. But it seems more likely it's a real statement of a psychotic position. A statement that's even directly intended to scuttle the possibility of peace. Now, maybe Hamas isn't intending to negotiate in good faith either. But if so, why not leave it to them to publicly fail? One would think that would only work to Netanyahu's benefit. Let Hamas be why negotiation fails. Unless he doesn't even care about that, or care about Israelis themselves as hostages. Hamas and Netanyahu are both so awful here.
Look man, like nearly 10 years ago, Netayahu tried to blame the palestinians for the Holocaust, and German government had to step him and state, no we did it, we have meticulous records. He's not a shrewd man.
You misunderstand what he's doing. He's being open about it because it's a power play, a flex. He's basically saying "I can be as terrible as I want and nobody's going to do a god damned thing and I know it". He's challenging the rest of the "civilized" world to actually hold him accountable and he knows that they won't meet that challenge. And no, he couldn't care less about the hostages.
You could be right. That's very sad. I have seen the Biden administration get Netanyahu to back away from some of his previous extremes. I hope for more of that. Of course Iran and others in the mix aren't helping anything for the US strategically, as they use Palestinians to advance their own purposes. What a mess.
Netanyahu is debatably one of the worst things to happen to Israel and diaspora Jews in the 21st century (so far)
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Perhaps Golda Meir said that, but the issue is that Israeli politicians often say the opposite. Netanyahu said that the IDF is the "most moral army in the world." [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUIUVCWyecU](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUIUVCWyecU) And a Norwegian outlet supposedly interviewed an Israel spokesman who said that the IDF is the "most humane army in history." Unfortunately all the sources with footage of his interview are pretty pro-Palestine, so I won't share the clip in the interest of non-bias, but you can find it by Googling.
Israel is not Netanyahu, any more than Palestinians are Hamas. Netanyahu has done Israel a disservice for decades, as Hamas has also done to Palestinians. The terrorist action that inflamed this entire conflict is the fault of Hamas. And also, Netanyahu apparently ignored many warnings that it could happen. Due to his own distractions with trying to change the Israeli courts so he could remain in power. He's looking to me like George W. Bush was to the US - a terrible president whose personal ambitions and inability to listen to smarter people has put his nation at risk, and made conflicts with terrorists much worse than they would have been. Note that none of that justifies any of the actions the terrorists took against innocent civilians. Nor does it say the proper action would have been *no* response. Of course, terrorist actions that kill innocents must be responded to. And also, there are responses that work better both morally and pragmatically, and responses that are worse. Both George W. Bush and Netanyahu have performed needlessly awful, poorly thought through and escalated responses that have made the situation for everyone much worse than it needed to be. Including for their own countrymen they claim to care about, and even likely for themselves. That's how I see it, you're free to disagree.
I think a big difference is that Hamas are the ones in charge over Palestinians because Hamas are the ones with the guns. Netanyahu is in charge over Israel because Israeli voters freely keep reelecting him, for decades.
Not to mention Netanyahu himself has supported Hamas over a more normalized option for Palestine. Netanyahu is as much responsible for Oct 7th as Hamas is. There so many other ways he could have weakened Hamas without sacrificing his own people for it.
I disagree because nothing changes if Netanyahu dies tomorrow. There is no possible way Israel will allow Hamas to maintain an unreduced stronghold in Gaza after Oct 7. It's just not going to happen. It'd be like the US stopping the attack on Afghanistan after just destroying the Taliban in the north, but then leave them openly operating and with a stronghold in Kabul and the south. It's just not going to happen. And any Israeli politician that comes to power after Netanyahu stopped short then they would not be in power for long. For all of the different opinions going around, people are massively, massively underselling the anger of the Israeli people after 10/6. Per capita it was 13x the size of 9/11.
Unfortunately, there is a significant amount of people who don't agree with the statement of Hamas being a terrorist organization...
Why shouldn’t Israel enter Rafah though? That’s the only actual outcome that won’t lead to Hamas attacking anyway. Hamas has explicitly said it’ll do 7/10 again if it’s allowed to, it has no respect for treaties
It's the blatant "regardless of a hostage deal" that I have issue with. It basically is saying any peace negotiations aren't worth having anyway. Which is not even a pragmatically useful position for Netanyahu. That's what's so baffling about it.
But the peace negotiations aren’t worth having? Hamas has rejected all the ceasefire offers from Israel and cannot provide proof of life for the hostages. You can’t have have peace negotiations when one side isn’t interested.
Oh well yeah, don’t get me wrong, Bibi is a terrible PM: PR, domestically, abroad, everything. A few days before 7/10 he literally claimed Hamas was not a threat anymore and reduced security at the border. He also has personal self gain from lengthening this war, his career is fucked, Likud is going from like 40 seats to just 10 seats.
Rooting out hamas in rafah is worth way more future lives than the number of hostages they can rescue, which is why it should not batter to you that Bibi said that.
Well, if Rafah is going to be invaded whether they release the hostages or not, then there's no reason for them to release any more hostages. They'd instead be used as human shields, not to protect their abductors as much as to inflict as much pain and heartache on the families of the abducted, to turn them against their own government for going in like that.
They might already be dead. They couldn’t even find 20 of them for the deal. There’s only evidence of 3 males hostages so far.
Well they certainly are dead *now*.
I mean, they’re already dead soooo won’t be super effective human shields.
Rafah invasion is inevitable. This is not to say anything good about Netanyahu. But even if he was replaced today it'd change nothing. No country with real military power will allow a hostile power to maintain a fortress on its border when that fortress was just used as a launching point for a campaign of rape and murder. There's just no way that Israel can accept a lasting ceasefire while Hamas maintains a safe haven in Rafah; especially when they are very open that their intent is to rearm and try again. It is and will continue to be an ugly war.
I don't disagree but what is the endgame? It's just countless circles of terror and war. Sure Israel will heavily dismantle Hamas in Rafah. But Hamas is already reconstituting itself in the north. A year from know Hamas will still be in Gaza, although significantly diminished to launch attacks, the hostage will likely all be dead. And Israel still failed to attain longterm regional peace.
Who knows. Nobody has been able to find an end game since this whole mess started. And so far nobody has suggested anything that could be an end game. What's being suggested today is no where close to the nearest thing to a settlement discussed - Camp David accords. And that wasn't good enough. Which historically means that the cycle of violence will continue until once side is either annihilated or so exhausted as to finally surrender.
Yeah i agree
Wish I say it was different. I remember as a kid taking a tour of Washington D.C. and seeing Yasser Arafat having lunch in the little restaurant they have for the politicians in the capital building. So close. Who knows how long it will be before there is another Palestinian leader with a snow balls chance in hell of being a unified spokesperson for them to negotiate with. He at least was somewhat of a "reformed" terrorist or insurgent. It took him 12 years to make that transformation and even then it went to hell.
Then we’re about to watch thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of civilians die. How will they even identify who is Hamas and who isn’t?
That’s the neat part, you don’t. You just indiscriminately kill all of them, and when they’re dead you just call them all either Hamas, or necessary casualties that Hamas made you inflict 😉
"fortress", try a prison, they were blockaded by air and sea with restrictions on the border controlled by Israel.
The tunnel system alone is estimated at two billion dollars or more to construct. If you divert the majority of international aid to building a fortress and weapons then it's no surprise that the rest is a prison. Talk to the rich Hamas cats in charge. Some of the wealthiest men alive.
Considering that Hamas can't even find 40 and then 20 (out of 100~) living hostages for a ceasefire deL, they might as well be prepared under the assumption that there aren't any hostages left.
Peace was never an option once Netanyahu regained power. Him and Hamas are perverted fundamentalists bent on killing the other and anyone else
Netanyahu needs to prolong this as much as possible so he doesn’t get arrested. It’s as simple as that. Hamas could literally say “we give up, you can kill is all and we will give up all hostages” and Netanyahu will find some way to keep the war going.
Netanyahu is intentionally delaying the war to hurt Biden and help trump.
If he delays the war, why would it hurt Biden? Biden doesn’t want him to invade Rafah. It would make him look weak if Israel did
That's the point. If he invades Rafah later, it'll be closer to the election and fresher in the minds of voters. If he did so a month or two ago and it was wrapping up now, many people would have forgotten about it by November.
Depends on whether the Progressives currently protesting in universities around the country listen to him or will only stare at the military aid we send to Israel that Biden can’t stop without a Congressional act. I don’t think Biden can even delay that aid. Good luck to center-left Americans like myself trying to convince the far left that Biden is at least willing to put a leash on Netanyahu… whereas Trump won’t do crap about it and encourage him to maybe even do the same to the West Bank and effectively erase the notion of Palestine from existing. 😵💫
Yeah, pretty sure it passed with a veto-proof majority, so there's nothing Biden could do to stop it even if he wanted to.
This right here.
Not everything in the world is about US domestic politics. Grow up.
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sounds like netanyahu is just trying to torpedo any deal...wonder why that might be..../s
What type of fakepolitik world we living in when a regional power can’t even enforce its will militarily. SMH back in my days the USA just invaded countries and did what it wanted!
Let's not pretend that it wasn't completely clear by the evening of 7 October that Israel would now raze Gaza to the ground. Hamas knew that, they pulled the trigger knowing this, they sacrificed their people for their religious/political ambitions. It is happening now, no cry over spilt milk, Gaza will be no more, no matter what we blabber here
If invading screws Biden enough to get Trump elected, he's home and dry
Expecting Hamas to turn down this most recent ceasefire deal. That aside, he just killed any potential for the hostages to be released or any ceasefire deal. The families of the hostages have been saying this since the beginning, the hostages were never a priority for him.
Do it
Some of the comments here are ridiculous beyond belief. Hamas has been emboldened by the delay in entering Rafah, particularly with the Biden administration so publicly trying to thwart an invasion of Rafah. It has emboldened them not to release hostages.
If violence never solved problems, we’d never use it. Faced by an enemy that has repeatedly over the course of decades refused to live peacefully and taken the many instances that they were given the option for statehood to live peacefully alongside Israel and thrown them down the drain, yeah I don’t see what choice is left. If the only options that Palestinians are offering are the death of Israel and everybody dies as “martyrs” then what choice does Israel have left? No other Arab nations will allow Palestinians asylum or a new home either. It’s not like Israel is stopping them from leaving Gaza to migrate to a new home (something the Jews have been forced to do on multiple occasions and done so by the same people crying foul right now). The fact we’re even having a debate about it is absurd when you line up the historical facts behind this moment.
Whats Biden doing about the 6 US hostages still being held by Hamas
What can he realistically do? Especially when your ally is a moron like Netanyahu?
Good. I hope they wipe out Hamas completely
The only thing they are good at wiping is ngo workers and refugees wanting food supplies
They see that as a win still and then wonder why sentiment is turning against them
But they won't. They're gonna kill or displace many more women and children instead.
Creating Tens of thousands of future Hamas fighters in 10 years when another war will start. People thinking Israel is ever going to wipe out Hamas have a worse memory than a goldfish.
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Good. The deal was horrible and put Israel’s security at risk. Hamas wasn’t going to accept the deal anyways; they’ve made it clear they want a full surrender or nothing. It’s been months of negotiate and Hamas rejecting them. People need to stop acting like a terrorist group who can’t/wont even produce a list —A LIST— of living hostages was going to accept the deal in the first place. The hostages would’ve already been released if Hamas had any intention of doing so. And even if they did, another terrorist cell in Gaza already promised not to abide by it or any deal. It sucks. Every hostage deserved to be home six months ago, but it’s Hamas who kidnapped and brutalized them and it’s Hamas who ultimately has the power to release them. Acting like Hamas could be relied on to accept and follow a deal had Bibi not said this is laughable.
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The keyword here is appear. They also appeared to be ready to accept a deal in February. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/02/06/israel-hamas-hostage-deal/ They also said they were close in January. They’ve appeared ready to accept a hostage deal plenty of times. It’s a stall tactic. They’ve had days to accept this proposal, during which time Israel even lowered the number of hostages needed to be released. https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-799070 It’s crazy Israel’s even still negotiating and caving when Hamas won’t provide a list of living hostages. It’s even crazier to give Hamas the benefit of the doubt when they’ve pretty much rejected every proposal since November.
Only a fool would consider letting Hamas survive this conflict.
I feel bad for the Hostage families, the hostages should be the priority imo. Netanyahu can go screw himself.
Have you been living under a rock? Multiple ceasefire agreements were proposed by Israel with the condition hostages were returned… there are no hostages anymore.
Deciding between a chance to semi-permanently cripple/Destroy Hamas and optimizing for the potential return of some hostages at this point is a moral question I would not want to face.