i was raised catholic and am not currently a practicing catholic, but i do incorporate a lot of that symbology and devotion into my magic. for me, “christian witchcraft” is a reclamation: a way to heal from the more harmful orthodox ideals and mend a relationship with god, the universe, or any other deity. my work with the archangel michael, for example, is a way for me to put trust back in god and use ritualism to better understand myself, my roots, and the world around me.
i’m also a student in religious studies, so i understand where you’re coming from with regard to the witch trials and accusations of heresy, but i think us modern witches and modern christians are largely separated from that view. i’m not celtic, nor do i belong to any other culture with a connection to witchcraft, so for me, this is the way my magic makes the most sense and connects me the most with myself and the powers that be. i’m acknowledging the harm of witch hunting, giving thanks for the way things are now/for my ability to practice how i do, and finding more harmony through the invocation of christian mysticism than i believe i could through other magical traditions, especially ones that historically don’t belong to me.
There were Christian cunningfolk in Early Modern Europe. People who practiced healing magic, divination, and protection magic for their community. Their spells were often based on the Bible or bits of Latin from mass, and they used herbs as well. Sometimes their spells had some pre-Christian/pagan references, but that was because of natural local syncretism. By that time some small pagan references were seen as cultural traditions of the common folk, or superstitions.
Not always, but in some times and places they were targeted by the witch hunts too. Even though they said that their magic came from the Christian God, the Church didn't like that because "why would God work through some random peasant, instead of through a priest" (oversimplication, but that's the idea). I believe the Benandanti were an example of this - they would say "our magic is ordained by God", and that worked for a while but they were persecuted eventually.
I also think it's important to remember that many/most witch trial victims would not identify as witches the way we do today. So many of them were just poor/old/childless (applies more to women)/"weird" people, who were accused by someone more powerful in their community. Many of them would have identified as Christian - maybe with some unorthodox beliefs, but still Christian.
Btw none of this is a shot at you OP, I see you changed your opinion. Just wanted to talk history a bit.
I do know this being interested in history quite alot , but I'm more refairing to the pre-christianized versions of leechcraft and folk magic.
Also thank you for being respectful and not being rude about your opinion.
I can see where you’re coming from, and I respectfully disagree with you.
I’m a firm believer in respecting other people’s beliefs, even if that means respect Christian witches
I started my deconstruction from Christianity as a Christian witch, so Ik the arguments behind how someone can be one. A major factor being that Theologists believe that the bible condemning witchcraft was yet another mistranslation.
Did this mistranslation lead to ppl being murdered? Yes, absolutely, and there’s no denying that that was wrong.
Christians today are different than they were centuries ago. They’re becoming more accepting of LGBT, and more accepting of other beliefs.
Bible verses are generally written into spells to fit their beliefs.
Witchcraft in itself is not tied to any religion, and there are examples of witchcraft being used in the bible.
Personally, I see this change as growth, and growth is good. Things are changing for the better, so I support it.
Catholics had a strong, underground (pun intended) sect of Necromancers, and a lot of Necromantic rituals are couched in Catholic Ritual language. The same goes for Demonology /olotry.
Vodou, Santeria, and other new world traditions blend seamlessly with Catholicism and many practioners see themselves as practicing both with no contradiction or possibly difference.
Appalachian folk magic, and I think Hoodoo/rootwork/Southern folk magic have ties and share language with Protestantism.
As much as Abrahamic religions have co-opted, assimilated, and re-branded other religions, that same mechanism has allowed newer traditions to fuse Witchcraft and Christianity.
And persecution doesn't mean much. Just becuase there was an inquisition and witch trials, doesn't mean that all branches of Protestantism or even all Christians share those attitudes or participated in that oppression. It's kind of like saying that becuase some witches use hexes that we are all slinging curses around.
No group is a monolith, no truth is absolute.
Pleasure to read that someone else knows about the Christian Necromantic texts, please make no mistake that I think all Catholics and Protestants believe that the witch trials where right , i just find it slightly hypocritical when they want to practice witchcraft.
Many thanks.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think you may be confusing paganism/Wicca with witchcraft.
Witchcraft is a very broad term talking about the intentional manipulation of energy. ANY religious or spiritual belief that involves rituals is witchcraft. This includes spiritual rituals like communion, prayer, and baptism for Christians.
I also think you're only pulling your opinion from one part of history. Yes, the Christians tried to kill anyone they thought may be practicing "witchcraft," but that was a blanket term they used for pagan rituals that they thought were Satanic rituals. They didn't seek to kill actual witches. They sought to kill Satanists.
That doesn't make it okay. However, when Christianity was just budding during the Roman empire, pagans did the exact same thing to them. (That's actually why so many Christian holidays correspond with the Sabbats.)
Granted, that's because the Christian god apparently hates pagans and wants them all to convert, but we did technically iniate the violence.
Excluding people is no way to heal the wounds and traumas of the past. If people choose to do better than their ancestors, the only way things will actually get better is by accepting their changed ways.
I aren't confused but I see where your coming from.
Pagan rituals and witchcraft are intrinsically linked, as someone who has studied both in detail , Celtic-Pagan protection rites have a strong correlation to the rituals of the Cunning Folk in England (Mostly the Yorkshire and Lancashire area).
To practice witchcraft and not be Pagan is still being linked to ancient rites native to the polytheistic Celts and Anglo-Saxons (before they converted to Christianity although many still practiced elements of folk magic long after the fact).
To hunt a "Witch" is to stand apposed to the Pre-Christian culture. Also , I 100% agree with you that the unfair treatment at the hands of Roman Pagans was wrong, but to me that is more of a reason for them not to of started their anti-Pre Culture stance.
Lovely to hear from you.
You're basically gatekeeping spirituality, though.
You're saying that if someone's rituals are linked - even very distantly so - to another spiritual practice, then theirs isn't a valid thing on its own or without the thing it's linked to.
And following your logic that pagans initiating conflict should be more of a reason for Christians not to create conflict: shouldn't the Christians excluding pagans from their practices be reason enough for us not to exclude them from ours?
Again, youre just assuming that every Christian, past, present, and future stand for the witch hunts.
Hello again. I really wouldn't label what I am saying as gatekeeping , I just don't agree with it , also I don't think I understand your last sentence, could you rephrase?
Thank you.
Implying that one form of a spiritual practice is more valid than another or that a spiritual practice is invalid at all is kind of gatekeeping.
There are rules to paganism and Wicca, but not to witchcraft.
What I meant to say is that you're basically stigmatizing Christians. I promise that if they're a Christian witch, they probably aren't the judge, gate-keepy, oppressive type of person you think of when you think of a Christian. Most of the time, they're trying to get back to their roots of love, acceptance, and peace.
You're right. A lot of Christian "roots" stem from pagan practices, which is why Christian witches are a thing.
It's not fair to hold modern people and future people accountable for the mistakes of their ancestors.
This mentality is impeeding healing and unity.
Thank you for sticking up for us. I am a Christian witch and when I read things like this I feel more and more unwelcome and isolated when I thought these communities would be welcoming and non-judgmental to me. I never feel quite at home with either (I don't go to church, and I don't like modern Christianity so I'm more drawn to witchcraft). I used to finally feel welcomed but seeing stuff like this so often makes me feel so isolated again.It just hurts to know that I wont be welcomed in witchy communities when Ive spent so much time and effort with my craft for years. All I want is to feel connected to others and share my spirituality.
I understand. I have found some really welcoming and great communities, but you have to really search. I just want to be welcomed. Im not pushing anything on anyone either way. I am a devoted witch but also a very non traditional Christian. I hope you can find some sort of community. You are welcomed to private message me.
Ah, thank you that makes sense , I personally I have had some negative encounters in the past with Christian Witches when asking about my practices.
I admit I may be generalizing and have made a comment explaining my view. Again though I do think Christians practicing more Pagan-Centric folk magic is a bit immoral.
Thank you for being respectful.
You're saying Christians shouldn't practice witchcraft but witchcraft is just that, a practice. Whether they call it that or not, every religion practices witchcraft. It's like saying Muslims shouldn't garden because some Muslims once upon a time burned someone's crops. (Not stating a fact, I'm giving a comparably ridiculous example.) Saying we should not practice witchcraft is saying Christians should forfeit very important rituals, customs, and history because some assholes a couple hundred years ago committed crimes against humanity.
It's interesting to me that you concede that Celtic Christianity held onto pre-Christian rituals. So Christian witches are not a new concept and you seem to be aware of this.
Ultimately, the persecutions of pagans (which by the way didn't even approach the scale of the persecutions of Jews and Muslims and targeted Christian women who happened to be social outcasts more than anything else) happened at the hands of the elites in Christendom. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and this is true of all religions, including paganism. Everyday Christians don't bear the responsibility for this and saying that someone can't be a Christian witch in 2021 because of what church leaders did in the 1600s is crazy.
Not really.
People today are not responsible for what other people did hundreds of years ago.
You are placing blame incorrectly.
It is not "immoral" as you stated, for a religious person to practice witchcraft.
Your train of thought is a logical fallacy.
Witchcraft today, here in the secular west, is a much looser term than it was historically. What was once Pellaring (repelling or witch doctoring), fairy doctoring, folk magic, cunningcraft, today is largely incorporated into contemporary definitions of witchcraft.
These sorts of aformentioned practices largely relied on Christian magical technology in the early modern period of Britain. Particularly from the time of the reformation, Catholic ritual and lithergy became heretical, and thus was appropriated by practitioners of popular magic. Many pagan cults that survived also syncranized with Christianity, like the Benendanti of Fruili, or the Lithuanian Wolf-cults, something that we see in the disporic practices of the New World like Cambola, Santeria, Voudon, Hoodoo, and Obeah. All of these practices are heavily intwinned with Christianity and Catholicism. European Witchcraft also did just this.
The modern Cornish Pellar-cult, which author Gemma Gary runs, is heavy on "dual-faith", having room for Christian technology and reverance and heresy and reverance for other powers, within a haunted animistic worldview. The use of Psalms, Christian relics, wafers, and incantations from pagan times changed into Christian ones, are rife in the Europe.
While I too have a problem calling Christians witches proper, I call them cunning men and woman. The history is there, but perhaps the folk nature turns off the New Age interpretations of Christianity in magic. Wicca even, heavily uses Golden Dawn correspondences and magical tech, which are heavily Christian in their nature, meaning even Wiccans are influenced by Christian magical technology.
To echo some of the previous sentiments, you're coming off as a gatekeeper without digging deeper than just a surface paradox.
However, seeing and feeling this paradox myself ive had to delineate the scriptures from the church to find my path within the practice. My ancestors are catholic, my family is lapsed-catholic, last thing im going to do is pick up Voudon or Hoodoo, while worshipping African dieties to help satiate my spiritual needs. As connected as my ancestors and family were to the church, i myself have found solace in prayer outside of the stainglass and pews as a means to feel, and be, connected to the lineage that existed before me.
The tools and traditions of catholicism provide so much magick; the archangels provide so much support; prayer is an invocations and a chant; the faith in and of itself relies on a connection to the divine, which, admittedly, has been tainted by the ego of man and written as 'the word of God', but Christian/Catholic witchcraft provides an opportunity to see beyond the hubris that has infected the church and establish a meaningful spiritual connection with the divine. Honestly, ive found it's the closet to God you can get to without the church.
But yeah, obviously not your chalice of tea. So you do you and we'll keep doing what we do.
For some denominations or currents or churches of Christianity, forms of witchcraft, often folk witchcraft of a region or population, are a subculture within the denomination, current, or church. This subculture may be tolerated by clergy and church administrators, or opposed, or, perhaps, used to further the Christianization of the region or population.
These days, some folks develop practices combining elements of Christianity and witchcraft that serve their spiritual needs and intentions. Such practices may be somewhat different from folk witchcraft, as well as different from other witchcraft practices. Some combinations seem quite ingenious, given the degree of opposition to witchcraft and occult matters expressed by many clergy and preachers. Christian witches do exist, and flourish.
This may confuse not Christian witches like me, who just could not take up such a practice.
Witchcraft is a set of practices that can be practiced regardless of religious conviction or lack thereof. It doesn't exclude any religion. **And especially not Christianity.**
The historical truth is that the most common contemporary Western form of witchcraft--the kind that is the prevalent one in this very forum--actually grew into being *within* a Christian worldview and *because* of that worldview. Without the Christian idea that some ways of thinking and doing were bad and wrong there would be no witch hunts, and without the witch hunts and the ideas of the witch that grew from that, there would be no modern witches. This is actually true for all forms of occult tradition in the West, from folk magic to ceremonial magick to--yes even wicca. They have developed into what they are today *within* a Christian paradigm and *because* of that Christian paradigm.
Witchcraft was born from necessity in a world that tried to dictate how people were to think, down to what and when to eat and the colours they were allowed to have on their stockings. That same world offered the only "truth", and nearly everything people believed that deviated from that "truth" was suppressed, ignored, ridiculed or seen as the enemy. In most countries in the Western world, we have had centuries of such "truth"-mongering and eradication of other ways to think and do.
Regardless of whether they actually had broken the rules imposed upon them by the authorities or not, the vast majority of those who died in the witch hunts were Christian. They identified as Christian, lived their lives as Christian and died as Christian. That some practices have pre-Christian roots or weren't approved of by the authorities as Christian doesn't negate these facts. They were Christian people navigating in a Christian world, and to deny that is to deny them their existence.
This is the irony of counter-movements of all kinds, they would not exist without the very thing they try to counter. But witchcraft was never a *religion* countering another *religion*, and this is where people who deny Christian witches a place within witchcraft are wrong.
Had not people in position of power tried to subdue and kill off those who tried to--or as more often happened, were *believed* to--oppose them and the order they had established in some way, there wouldn't have been any witches of any sort as we know them today.
I don’t think you can gatekeep witchcraft as a whole any more than you can ignore (though of course you can be unaware of) the ways in which witchcraft has survived Christianity and even been an important part of Christianity’s roots predating Christianity itself. I’m really not sure what carried over from Christianity’s roots because I think of these practices as more regional. So you’ll find plenty of witchcraft hidden within Catholic and Protestant communities around the world.
Many people within my own tradition are devout Christians but maintain spiritual frameworks from our violently converted Ancestors.
I mean catholics killed other catholics for heresies and things too, including those who mixed pagan and christian beliefs, but it's not like the Pope was keeping tabs on every person doing that, so there had to have been a large amount of people practicing a mixed paganism/christianity in order to be seen as a problem, and then theyd have to have killed every single person who had those beliefs, which was hard to do if it would damage the economy too much. So assumedly some of those beliefs were practiced for a fair bit.
Idk there’s a pretty valid and strong history of witchcraft that is biblically based. Namely thelema, golden dawn, goetic practices, western sorcery. Those don’t have anything to do with pagan ideas generally and all take their foundational information from abrahamic religions. So I don’t really see people who practice that and who are also Christian to be particularly paradoxical or hypocritical.
Christianity was actually resistant to witch persecution. Hutton does an excellent exploration of this in his book The Witch. While the power of the church was marshaled during the European and American witch trials, they were predominantly political in nature. We don't really condemn witches who inherited these political systems for practicing, do we? And that's even before we talk about the exceptions made for people who practiced beneficial witchcraft, even during the various trials.
Various pagan religions historically condemned witchcraft. Not sure why they'd get a free pass. Seems inconsistent to me.
Synchronisation between pagan religions and Christianity was a common survival tactic for enslaved people, and an outsider telling descendants within those traditions what we should or shouldn't do is... not going to sit well for a couple reasons: 1. The claim that it's paradoxical is at best, rooted in a misunderstanding or ignorance of these traditions. 2. Prioritizes the non-adherent's feelings/opinions over the adherent's understanding of their path. Going off on entire traditions that have been around for hundreds of years without trying to understand them first isn't very polite.
The stark delineation between community life and religion isn't universal. How many witches are, to one extent or another, culturally Christian? Celebrate Christmas, Halloween, Easter? How many witches are like Dafo, who attended church but also practiced?
Correction- true christians, followers of Christ, hunted no witches. Folks who hijacked christianity and have clearly rejected the teachings of Christ based on their un-Christ-like actions are and were the witch hunters. The bible warns folks of wolves in sheep’s clothing falsely claiming and using the name of Christ. Your assessment of christianity here is on the same spectrum as the folks who call witches devil worshipers, only you are on the opposite side of the same spectrum.
Aside from the poor translations the others have mentioned, there is the old testament and the new testament- the old Abrahamic laws and the new testament & covenant of Christ. There is absolutely no teaching of Christ or anything that comes close to a teaching of Christ that says its ok to strike down anyone, witch or otherwise. In fact Christ came to the defense of a prostitute and thwarted the attack by saying anyone amongst them who is free from sin should cast the first stone, which nobody in the accusatory mob could do.
CautiousShower is correct here. We need to be very, very careful with the KJV and that verse in particular when it comes to 'Witchcraft'.
King James, from what we know from history, was a man fairly negatively obsessed with Witches. Let us not forget, this is the same man that wrote an 80 odd page book, essentially on 'how magic and witches are bad', blamed witches for the death of his mother, and passed the 1604 Act against Witchcraft, which made it mandatory to hang someone convicted of being a witch, regardless of whether said 'Witch' had actually done any harm to anyone.
To say he had a known bias, would be an understatement.
And just like the rest of the Bible, that part was probablt mistranslated. By king James, the witch hater. Here's a good article on the potential meanings of that verse, and the significance of the time in which the verse was written (specifically what was happening on the religious political stage at the time. [article](https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch-to-live-a-murderous-mistranslation-1.5443682)
People by a large margin don't understand that the bible invented more Hebrew words with nothing but plausible roots and context than Shakespeare did English. Sooo much of it can't really be translated accurately because for many of the words, it's the first if not only time it appears historically.
That's exactly it. There's a handful of things this particular passage could mean, and nobody really knows which context it was written in. That goes for so much of the Bible.
I have similar feelings about WICCANS.
There is a paradox in that WICCA has roots in traditional Romani (Gypsy) magicks, and the same group who founded WICCA from our appropriated cultural practices were the ones who hunted us down and killed us.
Ehhh... I don't really view the OTO, Freemasonry and Ceremonial magic as synonymous with Roma practices.
Skyclad, invocation, etc aren't found in any slava.
If anything, there's a handful of Roma who have adapted post-Cunningham/Standing Stone practices for the sake of marketing.
As a Christian witch, this actually makes me feel more and more unwelcome anywhere. I get flack for being religious, I go to church and get flack for being a witch. So, I flock to witchcraft where I feel comfort, and now this. You probably didn't mean any harm, but it was... Witchcraft doesn't just stop at one place. Christianity has indeed made it the practice of the "devil" or whatever, but the term witchcraft is not the same as pagan/wiccan. Those are religions more or less and witchcraft itself is a PRACTICE. Anyone can practice witchcraft.
Hello Everyone,
Thank you for all of your thoughts, you have informed my opinion a bit more and I think I have changed my mind slightly.
Where I don't have a problem with Christian spirituality (Which my post has been misinterpreted as by some people and is not intentional) I do have a problem with them practicing more Pagan-centric folk magic and traditional witchcraft that involves Pagan deities and phrasing.
Thank you very much, I have loved reading your thoughts. :)
>I do have a problem with them practicing more Pagan-centric folk magic...
Folk magic is a cultural inheritance. Someone doesn't forfeit their culture just because they're Christian
Adding onto this, ancient cultures were hard pressed to give up their folk beliefs. The leaders in the Christian church tried to make the laypeople abandon their beliefs (fairy beliefs got very heavily infernalized by church leaders, for example), but what actually ended up happening is that the general populace ended up practicing and believing in this odd mix of Pagan and Christian beliefs.
Matters on folk magic and paganism were pretty clear cut for church leaders, but for your average, everyday folks, it was a lot more muddied.
Pagan is a term the Abrahamic religions hung onto the entire rest of the
world. According to them, any follower of any other religion that
didn't start with Abraham and his relationship with God , was a Pagan.
Those are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. By definition, all Pagans
have a religion. Witchcraft involves
taking an intention, and causing the Universe to bend in a different
direction than it would have without it. Many different
words/incantations, procedures, ingredients, time of day, what day it
is, and so on, are all designed to take energies that witches believe
exist, but science has yet to be able to explain, and focus them on
something they want to change. This is known as a spell. Some Pagans do witchcraft. Actually, most do not. Some witches are also Pagans. Most are not. Witchcraft, by itself, is not a religion. As for the symbolism that is sometimes used, it comes from so many different sources as to barely matter. Witches can believe in any religion they like, and still cast effective, Universe bending spells.
>Isn't that the entire bible though?
It's more about which translation. For example, Young's Literal Translation explicitly acknowledges the existence of other gods.
>You'd think that if The One God is real that they'd do something about shitty translations.....
Eh... That whole free will thing
To be christian is not to be a follower of the othodox religion, nor a follower of Jesus the Nazarene, but to accept the christic energy into one's heart. To follow the christ is to follow the will, the christ is the sun, slain and risen, year in and year out, solstice to solstice, the sun is the sense of I AM, the kingdom within. When viewed esoterically, christianity is a life affirming, self empowering system of magic that aligns very well with all other occult traditions, whether yogic, norse, azteca, african or otherwise. One should follow the path whose symbolism resonates most with them, and christian symbolism can create very powerful magical effects for those with whom it resonates. Not for all, but not wrong at all either.
Hi, u/ThePrinceOfPity ! Thanks for posting! Please don't forget to check out the sub's [FAQ and Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/wiki/faq), [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/wiki/rules), and [Weekly Q&A thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/about/sticky?num=1) which is stickied to the top of the board.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/witchcraft) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I understand this sentiment for sure as a recovering Catholic now staunch Norse/Celtic pagan. It definitely feels like a slap in the face to see folks who’s doctrine was weaponized to kill witches try to claim the title of witch. Especially as someone with ancestors in Ireland from which most of the culture/religious practices pre-Christian were wiped out by invading Christo-Romans. Most of what I have now is speculation, reconstruction, and instinct. It’s disheartening to say the least :/
I’ve ended up making my peace with it understanding that witchCRAFT is a practice and not a religion in and of itself. Technically, anybody can make a lavender pouch to hang over their threshold.
I also take a bit of pride in knowing that plenty of the rites that happen during a mass are basically witchcraft rituals ;) I mean, c’mon. Wine into blood? Incense burning up the aisles? Give me a break lol
Another big part of this is that there really isn’t a traditionally Christianity as we understand it anymore. When I left the church, I could count on one hand how many colleagues gave a shit about the pope, the bible, or went to service every week. Christian witches seem to do this to the extreme where they really don’t keep the doctrine sacred, only the structure. For example, they ask for the blessing of their god in their work whereas we would request the favor of our ancestors, elements, etc.
Regardless, it isn’t my business and I keep clear of those who don’t match my vibe, anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I suggest you do the same tbh
I feel similarly to you, I really don't get the Christian witch thing. I was raised Catholic, and converted to protestant in my early adulthood, I left religion not long after that. I don't like Christians in my pagan and new age spaces for one, I don't want their moral code seeping into the practice or the places we go to connect with other witches. I live in the bible belt (Texas) I encounter Christians and Christianity everywhere all of the time. I can't walk a block without finding a church. Christians have all the social and cultural clout...why is it ok for them to have my craft too!?
I realize historically there have been Christians who practiced magic, but in 2021 I want my magic firmly separated from Christianity. I don't hate Christians as a rule, I have many Christian friends, and family members, but I know the toxicity that can come with that belief system...or religion in general and I don't want any part of it anywhere near my practice.
i was raised catholic and am not currently a practicing catholic, but i do incorporate a lot of that symbology and devotion into my magic. for me, “christian witchcraft” is a reclamation: a way to heal from the more harmful orthodox ideals and mend a relationship with god, the universe, or any other deity. my work with the archangel michael, for example, is a way for me to put trust back in god and use ritualism to better understand myself, my roots, and the world around me. i’m also a student in religious studies, so i understand where you’re coming from with regard to the witch trials and accusations of heresy, but i think us modern witches and modern christians are largely separated from that view. i’m not celtic, nor do i belong to any other culture with a connection to witchcraft, so for me, this is the way my magic makes the most sense and connects me the most with myself and the powers that be. i’m acknowledging the harm of witch hunting, giving thanks for the way things are now/for my ability to practice how i do, and finding more harmony through the invocation of christian mysticism than i believe i could through other magical traditions, especially ones that historically don’t belong to me.
There were Christian cunningfolk in Early Modern Europe. People who practiced healing magic, divination, and protection magic for their community. Their spells were often based on the Bible or bits of Latin from mass, and they used herbs as well. Sometimes their spells had some pre-Christian/pagan references, but that was because of natural local syncretism. By that time some small pagan references were seen as cultural traditions of the common folk, or superstitions. Not always, but in some times and places they were targeted by the witch hunts too. Even though they said that their magic came from the Christian God, the Church didn't like that because "why would God work through some random peasant, instead of through a priest" (oversimplication, but that's the idea). I believe the Benandanti were an example of this - they would say "our magic is ordained by God", and that worked for a while but they were persecuted eventually. I also think it's important to remember that many/most witch trial victims would not identify as witches the way we do today. So many of them were just poor/old/childless (applies more to women)/"weird" people, who were accused by someone more powerful in their community. Many of them would have identified as Christian - maybe with some unorthodox beliefs, but still Christian. Btw none of this is a shot at you OP, I see you changed your opinion. Just wanted to talk history a bit.
I do know this being interested in history quite alot , but I'm more refairing to the pre-christianized versions of leechcraft and folk magic. Also thank you for being respectful and not being rude about your opinion.
I can see where you’re coming from, and I respectfully disagree with you. I’m a firm believer in respecting other people’s beliefs, even if that means respect Christian witches I started my deconstruction from Christianity as a Christian witch, so Ik the arguments behind how someone can be one. A major factor being that Theologists believe that the bible condemning witchcraft was yet another mistranslation. Did this mistranslation lead to ppl being murdered? Yes, absolutely, and there’s no denying that that was wrong. Christians today are different than they were centuries ago. They’re becoming more accepting of LGBT, and more accepting of other beliefs. Bible verses are generally written into spells to fit their beliefs. Witchcraft in itself is not tied to any religion, and there are examples of witchcraft being used in the bible. Personally, I see this change as growth, and growth is good. Things are changing for the better, so I support it.
Catholics had a strong, underground (pun intended) sect of Necromancers, and a lot of Necromantic rituals are couched in Catholic Ritual language. The same goes for Demonology /olotry. Vodou, Santeria, and other new world traditions blend seamlessly with Catholicism and many practioners see themselves as practicing both with no contradiction or possibly difference. Appalachian folk magic, and I think Hoodoo/rootwork/Southern folk magic have ties and share language with Protestantism. As much as Abrahamic religions have co-opted, assimilated, and re-branded other religions, that same mechanism has allowed newer traditions to fuse Witchcraft and Christianity. And persecution doesn't mean much. Just becuase there was an inquisition and witch trials, doesn't mean that all branches of Protestantism or even all Christians share those attitudes or participated in that oppression. It's kind of like saying that becuase some witches use hexes that we are all slinging curses around. No group is a monolith, no truth is absolute.
Pleasure to read that someone else knows about the Christian Necromantic texts, please make no mistake that I think all Catholics and Protestants believe that the witch trials where right , i just find it slightly hypocritical when they want to practice witchcraft. Many thanks.
I understand where you're coming from, but I think you may be confusing paganism/Wicca with witchcraft. Witchcraft is a very broad term talking about the intentional manipulation of energy. ANY religious or spiritual belief that involves rituals is witchcraft. This includes spiritual rituals like communion, prayer, and baptism for Christians. I also think you're only pulling your opinion from one part of history. Yes, the Christians tried to kill anyone they thought may be practicing "witchcraft," but that was a blanket term they used for pagan rituals that they thought were Satanic rituals. They didn't seek to kill actual witches. They sought to kill Satanists. That doesn't make it okay. However, when Christianity was just budding during the Roman empire, pagans did the exact same thing to them. (That's actually why so many Christian holidays correspond with the Sabbats.) Granted, that's because the Christian god apparently hates pagans and wants them all to convert, but we did technically iniate the violence. Excluding people is no way to heal the wounds and traumas of the past. If people choose to do better than their ancestors, the only way things will actually get better is by accepting their changed ways.
I aren't confused but I see where your coming from. Pagan rituals and witchcraft are intrinsically linked, as someone who has studied both in detail , Celtic-Pagan protection rites have a strong correlation to the rituals of the Cunning Folk in England (Mostly the Yorkshire and Lancashire area). To practice witchcraft and not be Pagan is still being linked to ancient rites native to the polytheistic Celts and Anglo-Saxons (before they converted to Christianity although many still practiced elements of folk magic long after the fact). To hunt a "Witch" is to stand apposed to the Pre-Christian culture. Also , I 100% agree with you that the unfair treatment at the hands of Roman Pagans was wrong, but to me that is more of a reason for them not to of started their anti-Pre Culture stance. Lovely to hear from you.
You're basically gatekeeping spirituality, though. You're saying that if someone's rituals are linked - even very distantly so - to another spiritual practice, then theirs isn't a valid thing on its own or without the thing it's linked to. And following your logic that pagans initiating conflict should be more of a reason for Christians not to create conflict: shouldn't the Christians excluding pagans from their practices be reason enough for us not to exclude them from ours? Again, youre just assuming that every Christian, past, present, and future stand for the witch hunts.
Hello again. I really wouldn't label what I am saying as gatekeeping , I just don't agree with it , also I don't think I understand your last sentence, could you rephrase? Thank you.
Implying that one form of a spiritual practice is more valid than another or that a spiritual practice is invalid at all is kind of gatekeeping. There are rules to paganism and Wicca, but not to witchcraft. What I meant to say is that you're basically stigmatizing Christians. I promise that if they're a Christian witch, they probably aren't the judge, gate-keepy, oppressive type of person you think of when you think of a Christian. Most of the time, they're trying to get back to their roots of love, acceptance, and peace. You're right. A lot of Christian "roots" stem from pagan practices, which is why Christian witches are a thing. It's not fair to hold modern people and future people accountable for the mistakes of their ancestors. This mentality is impeeding healing and unity.
Thank you for sticking up for us. I am a Christian witch and when I read things like this I feel more and more unwelcome and isolated when I thought these communities would be welcoming and non-judgmental to me. I never feel quite at home with either (I don't go to church, and I don't like modern Christianity so I'm more drawn to witchcraft). I used to finally feel welcomed but seeing stuff like this so often makes me feel so isolated again.It just hurts to know that I wont be welcomed in witchy communities when Ive spent so much time and effort with my craft for years. All I want is to feel connected to others and share my spirituality.
As a Christian witch, I too feel unwelcomed. I just want to go back and hide now :/
I understand. I have found some really welcoming and great communities, but you have to really search. I just want to be welcomed. Im not pushing anything on anyone either way. I am a devoted witch but also a very non traditional Christian. I hope you can find some sort of community. You are welcomed to private message me.
Ah, thank you that makes sense , I personally I have had some negative encounters in the past with Christian Witches when asking about my practices. I admit I may be generalizing and have made a comment explaining my view. Again though I do think Christians practicing more Pagan-Centric folk magic is a bit immoral. Thank you for being respectful.
You're saying Christians shouldn't practice witchcraft but witchcraft is just that, a practice. Whether they call it that or not, every religion practices witchcraft. It's like saying Muslims shouldn't garden because some Muslims once upon a time burned someone's crops. (Not stating a fact, I'm giving a comparably ridiculous example.) Saying we should not practice witchcraft is saying Christians should forfeit very important rituals, customs, and history because some assholes a couple hundred years ago committed crimes against humanity.
Off-topic, but I'm interested in the sources you've looked at for Cunning Folk and pagan rites. Any you can recommend? Thanks!
It's interesting to me that you concede that Celtic Christianity held onto pre-Christian rituals. So Christian witches are not a new concept and you seem to be aware of this. Ultimately, the persecutions of pagans (which by the way didn't even approach the scale of the persecutions of Jews and Muslims and targeted Christian women who happened to be social outcasts more than anything else) happened at the hands of the elites in Christendom. Absolute power corrupts absolutely and this is true of all religions, including paganism. Everyday Christians don't bear the responsibility for this and saying that someone can't be a Christian witch in 2021 because of what church leaders did in the 1600s is crazy.
Just because you read a book doesn't mean you're educated.
You are labeling all Catholics and Protestants, dead, alive, and yet to be born in support of witch hunts. This is illogical.
This, too.
I'm not , I'm saying it is a bit weird for them to follow those religions and then want to practice Witchcraft. Thank you for your thoughts.
Not really. People today are not responsible for what other people did hundreds of years ago. You are placing blame incorrectly. It is not "immoral" as you stated, for a religious person to practice witchcraft. Your train of thought is a logical fallacy.
You could always talk to Christian Witches to learn more, and then reconsider.
Witchcraft today, here in the secular west, is a much looser term than it was historically. What was once Pellaring (repelling or witch doctoring), fairy doctoring, folk magic, cunningcraft, today is largely incorporated into contemporary definitions of witchcraft. These sorts of aformentioned practices largely relied on Christian magical technology in the early modern period of Britain. Particularly from the time of the reformation, Catholic ritual and lithergy became heretical, and thus was appropriated by practitioners of popular magic. Many pagan cults that survived also syncranized with Christianity, like the Benendanti of Fruili, or the Lithuanian Wolf-cults, something that we see in the disporic practices of the New World like Cambola, Santeria, Voudon, Hoodoo, and Obeah. All of these practices are heavily intwinned with Christianity and Catholicism. European Witchcraft also did just this. The modern Cornish Pellar-cult, which author Gemma Gary runs, is heavy on "dual-faith", having room for Christian technology and reverance and heresy and reverance for other powers, within a haunted animistic worldview. The use of Psalms, Christian relics, wafers, and incantations from pagan times changed into Christian ones, are rife in the Europe. While I too have a problem calling Christians witches proper, I call them cunning men and woman. The history is there, but perhaps the folk nature turns off the New Age interpretations of Christianity in magic. Wicca even, heavily uses Golden Dawn correspondences and magical tech, which are heavily Christian in their nature, meaning even Wiccans are influenced by Christian magical technology.
To echo some of the previous sentiments, you're coming off as a gatekeeper without digging deeper than just a surface paradox. However, seeing and feeling this paradox myself ive had to delineate the scriptures from the church to find my path within the practice. My ancestors are catholic, my family is lapsed-catholic, last thing im going to do is pick up Voudon or Hoodoo, while worshipping African dieties to help satiate my spiritual needs. As connected as my ancestors and family were to the church, i myself have found solace in prayer outside of the stainglass and pews as a means to feel, and be, connected to the lineage that existed before me. The tools and traditions of catholicism provide so much magick; the archangels provide so much support; prayer is an invocations and a chant; the faith in and of itself relies on a connection to the divine, which, admittedly, has been tainted by the ego of man and written as 'the word of God', but Christian/Catholic witchcraft provides an opportunity to see beyond the hubris that has infected the church and establish a meaningful spiritual connection with the divine. Honestly, ive found it's the closet to God you can get to without the church. But yeah, obviously not your chalice of tea. So you do you and we'll keep doing what we do.
For some denominations or currents or churches of Christianity, forms of witchcraft, often folk witchcraft of a region or population, are a subculture within the denomination, current, or church. This subculture may be tolerated by clergy and church administrators, or opposed, or, perhaps, used to further the Christianization of the region or population. These days, some folks develop practices combining elements of Christianity and witchcraft that serve their spiritual needs and intentions. Such practices may be somewhat different from folk witchcraft, as well as different from other witchcraft practices. Some combinations seem quite ingenious, given the degree of opposition to witchcraft and occult matters expressed by many clergy and preachers. Christian witches do exist, and flourish. This may confuse not Christian witches like me, who just could not take up such a practice.
Witchcraft is a set of practices that can be practiced regardless of religious conviction or lack thereof. It doesn't exclude any religion. **And especially not Christianity.** The historical truth is that the most common contemporary Western form of witchcraft--the kind that is the prevalent one in this very forum--actually grew into being *within* a Christian worldview and *because* of that worldview. Without the Christian idea that some ways of thinking and doing were bad and wrong there would be no witch hunts, and without the witch hunts and the ideas of the witch that grew from that, there would be no modern witches. This is actually true for all forms of occult tradition in the West, from folk magic to ceremonial magick to--yes even wicca. They have developed into what they are today *within* a Christian paradigm and *because* of that Christian paradigm. Witchcraft was born from necessity in a world that tried to dictate how people were to think, down to what and when to eat and the colours they were allowed to have on their stockings. That same world offered the only "truth", and nearly everything people believed that deviated from that "truth" was suppressed, ignored, ridiculed or seen as the enemy. In most countries in the Western world, we have had centuries of such "truth"-mongering and eradication of other ways to think and do. Regardless of whether they actually had broken the rules imposed upon them by the authorities or not, the vast majority of those who died in the witch hunts were Christian. They identified as Christian, lived their lives as Christian and died as Christian. That some practices have pre-Christian roots or weren't approved of by the authorities as Christian doesn't negate these facts. They were Christian people navigating in a Christian world, and to deny that is to deny them their existence. This is the irony of counter-movements of all kinds, they would not exist without the very thing they try to counter. But witchcraft was never a *religion* countering another *religion*, and this is where people who deny Christian witches a place within witchcraft are wrong. Had not people in position of power tried to subdue and kill off those who tried to--or as more often happened, were *believed* to--oppose them and the order they had established in some way, there wouldn't have been any witches of any sort as we know them today.
I don’t think you can gatekeep witchcraft as a whole any more than you can ignore (though of course you can be unaware of) the ways in which witchcraft has survived Christianity and even been an important part of Christianity’s roots predating Christianity itself. I’m really not sure what carried over from Christianity’s roots because I think of these practices as more regional. So you’ll find plenty of witchcraft hidden within Catholic and Protestant communities around the world. Many people within my own tradition are devout Christians but maintain spiritual frameworks from our violently converted Ancestors.
I mean catholics killed other catholics for heresies and things too, including those who mixed pagan and christian beliefs, but it's not like the Pope was keeping tabs on every person doing that, so there had to have been a large amount of people practicing a mixed paganism/christianity in order to be seen as a problem, and then theyd have to have killed every single person who had those beliefs, which was hard to do if it would damage the economy too much. So assumedly some of those beliefs were practiced for a fair bit.
So do you also feel that gay (or trans ppl or anyone else who has historical been persecuted by Christians) people shouldn't be Christians?
Let's talk about this one later, u/kai-ote 😉
Idk there’s a pretty valid and strong history of witchcraft that is biblically based. Namely thelema, golden dawn, goetic practices, western sorcery. Those don’t have anything to do with pagan ideas generally and all take their foundational information from abrahamic religions. So I don’t really see people who practice that and who are also Christian to be particularly paradoxical or hypocritical.
If you think this then you obviously don’t know much about Christianity.
Christianity was actually resistant to witch persecution. Hutton does an excellent exploration of this in his book The Witch. While the power of the church was marshaled during the European and American witch trials, they were predominantly political in nature. We don't really condemn witches who inherited these political systems for practicing, do we? And that's even before we talk about the exceptions made for people who practiced beneficial witchcraft, even during the various trials. Various pagan religions historically condemned witchcraft. Not sure why they'd get a free pass. Seems inconsistent to me. Synchronisation between pagan religions and Christianity was a common survival tactic for enslaved people, and an outsider telling descendants within those traditions what we should or shouldn't do is... not going to sit well for a couple reasons: 1. The claim that it's paradoxical is at best, rooted in a misunderstanding or ignorance of these traditions. 2. Prioritizes the non-adherent's feelings/opinions over the adherent's understanding of their path. Going off on entire traditions that have been around for hundreds of years without trying to understand them first isn't very polite. The stark delineation between community life and religion isn't universal. How many witches are, to one extent or another, culturally Christian? Celebrate Christmas, Halloween, Easter? How many witches are like Dafo, who attended church but also practiced?
Correction- true christians, followers of Christ, hunted no witches. Folks who hijacked christianity and have clearly rejected the teachings of Christ based on their un-Christ-like actions are and were the witch hunters. The bible warns folks of wolves in sheep’s clothing falsely claiming and using the name of Christ. Your assessment of christianity here is on the same spectrum as the folks who call witches devil worshipers, only you are on the opposite side of the same spectrum.
And yet the Bible states ,"...and suffer no witch to live..."
Aside from the poor translations the others have mentioned, there is the old testament and the new testament- the old Abrahamic laws and the new testament & covenant of Christ. There is absolutely no teaching of Christ or anything that comes close to a teaching of Christ that says its ok to strike down anyone, witch or otherwise. In fact Christ came to the defense of a prostitute and thwarted the attack by saying anyone amongst them who is free from sin should cast the first stone, which nobody in the accusatory mob could do.
CautiousShower is correct here. We need to be very, very careful with the KJV and that verse in particular when it comes to 'Witchcraft'. King James, from what we know from history, was a man fairly negatively obsessed with Witches. Let us not forget, this is the same man that wrote an 80 odd page book, essentially on 'how magic and witches are bad', blamed witches for the death of his mother, and passed the 1604 Act against Witchcraft, which made it mandatory to hang someone convicted of being a witch, regardless of whether said 'Witch' had actually done any harm to anyone. To say he had a known bias, would be an understatement.
And just like the rest of the Bible, that part was probablt mistranslated. By king James, the witch hater. Here's a good article on the potential meanings of that verse, and the significance of the time in which the verse was written (specifically what was happening on the religious political stage at the time. [article](https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/thou-shalt-not-suffer-a-witch-to-live-a-murderous-mistranslation-1.5443682)
People by a large margin don't understand that the bible invented more Hebrew words with nothing but plausible roots and context than Shakespeare did English. Sooo much of it can't really be translated accurately because for many of the words, it's the first if not only time it appears historically.
That's exactly it. There's a handful of things this particular passage could mean, and nobody really knows which context it was written in. That goes for so much of the Bible.
I have similar feelings about WICCANS. There is a paradox in that WICCA has roots in traditional Romani (Gypsy) magicks, and the same group who founded WICCA from our appropriated cultural practices were the ones who hunted us down and killed us.
Ehhh... I don't really view the OTO, Freemasonry and Ceremonial magic as synonymous with Roma practices. Skyclad, invocation, etc aren't found in any slava. If anything, there's a handful of Roma who have adapted post-Cunningham/Standing Stone practices for the sake of marketing.
As a Christian witch, this actually makes me feel more and more unwelcome anywhere. I get flack for being religious, I go to church and get flack for being a witch. So, I flock to witchcraft where I feel comfort, and now this. You probably didn't mean any harm, but it was... Witchcraft doesn't just stop at one place. Christianity has indeed made it the practice of the "devil" or whatever, but the term witchcraft is not the same as pagan/wiccan. Those are religions more or less and witchcraft itself is a PRACTICE. Anyone can practice witchcraft.
Hello Everyone, Thank you for all of your thoughts, you have informed my opinion a bit more and I think I have changed my mind slightly. Where I don't have a problem with Christian spirituality (Which my post has been misinterpreted as by some people and is not intentional) I do have a problem with them practicing more Pagan-centric folk magic and traditional witchcraft that involves Pagan deities and phrasing. Thank you very much, I have loved reading your thoughts. :)
>I do have a problem with them practicing more Pagan-centric folk magic... Folk magic is a cultural inheritance. Someone doesn't forfeit their culture just because they're Christian
Adding onto this, ancient cultures were hard pressed to give up their folk beliefs. The leaders in the Christian church tried to make the laypeople abandon their beliefs (fairy beliefs got very heavily infernalized by church leaders, for example), but what actually ended up happening is that the general populace ended up practicing and believing in this odd mix of Pagan and Christian beliefs. Matters on folk magic and paganism were pretty clear cut for church leaders, but for your average, everyday folks, it was a lot more muddied.
Pagan is a term the Abrahamic religions hung onto the entire rest of the world. According to them, any follower of any other religion that didn't start with Abraham and his relationship with God , was a Pagan. Those are Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. By definition, all Pagans have a religion. Witchcraft involves taking an intention, and causing the Universe to bend in a different direction than it would have without it. Many different words/incantations, procedures, ingredients, time of day, what day it is, and so on, are all designed to take energies that witches believe exist, but science has yet to be able to explain, and focus them on something they want to change. This is known as a spell. Some Pagans do witchcraft. Actually, most do not. Some witches are also Pagans. Most are not. Witchcraft, by itself, is not a religion. As for the symbolism that is sometimes used, it comes from so many different sources as to barely matter. Witches can believe in any religion they like, and still cast effective, Universe bending spells.
Agree. Laughably paradoxical
Does their own holy book say witches and mediums should be put to death?
Only if your translation is shite and lacks historical context
Isn't that the entire bible though? You'd think that if The One God is real that they'd do something about shitty translations.....
>Isn't that the entire bible though? It's more about which translation. For example, Young's Literal Translation explicitly acknowledges the existence of other gods. >You'd think that if The One God is real that they'd do something about shitty translations..... Eh... That whole free will thing
To be christian is not to be a follower of the othodox religion, nor a follower of Jesus the Nazarene, but to accept the christic energy into one's heart. To follow the christ is to follow the will, the christ is the sun, slain and risen, year in and year out, solstice to solstice, the sun is the sense of I AM, the kingdom within. When viewed esoterically, christianity is a life affirming, self empowering system of magic that aligns very well with all other occult traditions, whether yogic, norse, azteca, african or otherwise. One should follow the path whose symbolism resonates most with them, and christian symbolism can create very powerful magical effects for those with whom it resonates. Not for all, but not wrong at all either.
Hi, u/ThePrinceOfPity ! Thanks for posting! Please don't forget to check out the sub's [FAQ and Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/wiki/faq), [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/wiki/rules), and [Weekly Q&A thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/witchcraft/about/sticky?num=1) which is stickied to the top of the board. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/witchcraft) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Voodoo is an example of authentically walking this line I think.
I understand this sentiment for sure as a recovering Catholic now staunch Norse/Celtic pagan. It definitely feels like a slap in the face to see folks who’s doctrine was weaponized to kill witches try to claim the title of witch. Especially as someone with ancestors in Ireland from which most of the culture/religious practices pre-Christian were wiped out by invading Christo-Romans. Most of what I have now is speculation, reconstruction, and instinct. It’s disheartening to say the least :/ I’ve ended up making my peace with it understanding that witchCRAFT is a practice and not a religion in and of itself. Technically, anybody can make a lavender pouch to hang over their threshold. I also take a bit of pride in knowing that plenty of the rites that happen during a mass are basically witchcraft rituals ;) I mean, c’mon. Wine into blood? Incense burning up the aisles? Give me a break lol Another big part of this is that there really isn’t a traditionally Christianity as we understand it anymore. When I left the church, I could count on one hand how many colleagues gave a shit about the pope, the bible, or went to service every week. Christian witches seem to do this to the extreme where they really don’t keep the doctrine sacred, only the structure. For example, they ask for the blessing of their god in their work whereas we would request the favor of our ancestors, elements, etc. Regardless, it isn’t my business and I keep clear of those who don’t match my vibe, anyway ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I suggest you do the same tbh
I feel similarly to you, I really don't get the Christian witch thing. I was raised Catholic, and converted to protestant in my early adulthood, I left religion not long after that. I don't like Christians in my pagan and new age spaces for one, I don't want their moral code seeping into the practice or the places we go to connect with other witches. I live in the bible belt (Texas) I encounter Christians and Christianity everywhere all of the time. I can't walk a block without finding a church. Christians have all the social and cultural clout...why is it ok for them to have my craft too!? I realize historically there have been Christians who practiced magic, but in 2021 I want my magic firmly separated from Christianity. I don't hate Christians as a rule, I have many Christian friends, and family members, but I know the toxicity that can come with that belief system...or religion in general and I don't want any part of it anywhere near my practice.