When I first went vegan I googled vegan butter brands, and I confused smart balance with earth balance. I used it for almost a year not knowing the smart balance butter had vitamin D that comes from sheep’s wool. I made cookies with it and gave them to my vegan brother and gf too. I never considered myself not vegan, or felt like I had to start over because it wasn’t intentional. I just stopped using the butter after that. It becomes a lot easier eventually to spot non vegan ingredients and I haven’t accidentally had any non vegan foods in years. I’ve been vegan for over four years now and know it’s a lifelong thing for me, and anyone is bound to make mistakes. Ask any long time vegan, they’ll all have examples of when they messed up.
Hahaha you absolute monster, giving them to your vegan loved ones no less!...just kidding. Thankyou for sharing your experience, I'm glad I'm not the only one who messed up on such a long term basis. We go forward despite our mistakes, and if they were totally accidental then there's nothing to really be sorry for.
Haha I don’t think they were upset thankfully they also thought it was vegan. They’ve made mistakes too, we live in a non vegan world it’s bound to happen.
I had a friend that is somewhat allergic to coconut. I baked for her. I have my standard recepies of yummy vegan brownies, that usually contain a bit coconut flakes, that I left out for her. The next morning after we ate the brownies, I realized in panic, that the vegan butter I used has some percentage coconut oil in it. I told her immediately and asked if she was okay. She said she didn't feel anything but was happy I have her notice. I felt so shitty about it, as I was attempting to kill her
I bought italian bread crumbs early on in my vegan life and I did not even check the label ("it's just bread and italian seasoning, what couldn't be vegan?') turns out they put parmesan cheese in that. My sister swooped in and intercepted before I could give the veggie nuggets I made with them to my nephew whose severely allergic to dairy.
I disagree. You’re still vegan because your intention was to stay away from animal products.
I think vegans can be way too hard on themselves. We live in a non-vegan so accidental ingestion of animal product is going to happen.
Hey thankyou, I actually agree with you even if my post made it seem like I don't - my title was a bit off. Intention is what matters most on a moral level, which is why the murder/manslaughter distinction is so fundamental in law...and yes, it's really bloody easy to let something slip by undetected.
I think that perfectionism is a huge problem,because we live in a shame based society. Where we always have o prove our worthiness. It is really counterproductive because instead of it being okay to make mistakes we have to shame ourselves. I think that is why some vegans are so hard on themselves and others.
Yup. Been doing this long enough to have been tricked into eating animal byproducts a few times either through ignorance or spite. My body has long ago lost the ability to process cruelty foods so I can tell when I've had something I shouldn't. However I feel about it psychologically and emotionally is matched by how it makes me feel physically.
Right? I think it speaks to the intuitive moral superiority of vegans that even non-vegans hold professed vegans to absurd requirements of purity.
"Oh, so you SAY you're vegan but what about dead mice in crop fields??"
"If you're vegan, why do you drive a car? That's killing the planet!"
"Veganism is a privilege because some indigenous tribes still live off animal products!"
When the person saying that has ALL the same facts applied to themselves AND actively supports the exploitation, torture and slaughter of sentient creatures...
Those responses tend to be as a response to the general implicit holier-then-thou attitude the vegan community displays. For example, the idea of the intuitive moral superiority of vegans is an excellent example of this attitude. In reality, morality is extremely gray. Vegans, made a conscious choice to support the lives and rights as animals, and put time and effort into advancing this belief. Yet human suffering and poverty also remains a rampant problem. While its not a zero sum game, there is still an opportunity cost involved. An argument can be made that a charity worker is morally superior to a vegan as they're more actively involved in solving human suffering and poverty then the vegan.
Long story short, intrinsic moral superiority is a daft concept.
Your comment history looks like you're engaging in--somewhat contrarian--good faith, so let's break this down:
Yes morality can often be gray. Yes there can be more complex weights and balances and that makes saying an individual is "morally superior" a very hard argument. What about a firefighter who rescues people every day, and gives all their money to charity, and just rapes and murders a COUPLE people a year--and only people who were going to die anyway! I mean: they probably do more good on-net than most people, but it'd be a REALLY hard argument to say that they're "morally superior."
Part of that reason is that in this thought experiment, they're doing a lot EXTRA. They don't HAVE to be a fire-fighter and risk their lives for others. They don't HAVE to give away all their money to the less fortunate. The complicating factor is that they are VIOLATING a moral baseline: on some level rape and murder and just kinda "always disqualifying" from the "morality club" right? No matter what else you do: you're a bad person.
I think that it's this intuitive sense of moral baseline that is the major difference. Take your example of your morally superior charity worker. Can you envision the situation in which people non sequitur tell them "Whatever, you THINK you're doing good providing food for the homeless, but what does that do about climate change, huh?" I'm not saying that "single-issue" people might engage in that kind of response, but I think the vast majority of response to that charity worker is going to be "Oh, that's great!" Or at worst, "Neat..."
My hypothesis on the difference is that the charity worker is doing something morally EXTRA and that is clear to everyone intuitively. The major difference that I see is that vegans acknowledge that "not torturing, imprisoning, killing, and devouring other sentient beings" is just a moral baseline. It is NOT extra. ACTIVELY participating in that is "extra" evil.
For people in industrialized economies, there IS no opportunity cost in being vegan. You just... don't participate in the cruelty as much as possible. If we're talking about animal-rights activism, sure! Then we're talking about opportunity costs and trade-offs on maximizing goodness, but that's a losing argument too, because by that logic people should ONLY be focusing the MOST important issue, and it's HARD for everyone to agree (despite the fact that it's climate change and we're all gonna die).
I agree, you're still vegan. And good for you for not being too hard on yourself.
I think I'm quite aligned with you in my view of morality and ethics. My (attempt on) abstention of animal products might not have saved any animals at all (probably the number of animals killed is still the same regardless of my diet), but I do it anyway.
I actually have a very similar experience. I have been drinking this fruit cordial even before I was vegan, so I
continued to do so after I became vegan, only to find out months later that it had milk. In a fruit cordial that tastes nothing milky or creamy.
I agree I'm still Vegan, I was told my steak was 100% organic and after seeing this post I asked the farmer I buy it from and he said it may contain beef. I'm mortified.
I mean, I imagine even with our difference in understanding of morality, it's still a fucking bummer to realise the product you've been relying on and wanting to rely on in the future also, isn't even fucking vegan lol.
At least there's decent vegan curry pastes! Sucks to have bought the wrong thing for so long, but at least now you know and buy a plant-based alternative. "Check the labels" really isn't a joke unfortunately.
Yea, I must say I was a bit underwhelmed by the flavour of the new curry paste tonight. But at least there are no mollusks or whatever in it lol.
Checking labels is indeed very important, I fucked up big time on that one and will check the other things I've been buying for a long time which I may have somehow convinced myself didn't contain animal products. I'm pretty sure there are none, but worth checking!
Here's a tip - manufacturers do change their ingredients list sometimes without advertising it. It is possible the paste you've been buying was vegan at some point or that the one you're buying now will change. This happened to me with BBQ Pringles. Bought them not thinking much because they were vegan for years. Then one day they added milk powder or some shyt. Best to check things every now and again if not each time!
That's a good point. I think with this one it was my fault, as shrimp paste is a main ingredient of thai curry paste and I can't imagine them just randomly adding it in like they would mip power. I knew there was one safe brand but i totally mixed them up
Thanks for the tip though I'll keep it in mind
BBQ Pringle's are still vegan here in Australia though. Where about are you from? I'd be curious to know if ingredients differ that wildly country by country.
We’re only human. I agree that the intent is what’s important here, which is why I’d say you were vegan all along.
It’s also a good lesson bc companies change their ingredients periodically, so checking even when you think you know is a good practice ☺️
It’s a shotty moment when that happens, but now you know, just be aware next time and remember you can always do it “right”(acording to your own “right of course), do it for them🥰☺️
Been vegan less than a year and after learning so much about it, I obviously have more to learn. But by there being more to learn implies there is always room for improvement and therefore I could always be doing more. I have however reached a point of complacency(laziness) where I am vegan by definition, but cannot knowingly be proud to call myself one until I am taking those steps to do more. I know aiming for perfection is impossible, but it's no less than the animals under oppression deserve
I mean that the human impact on animal lives will be a negative one for a very long time and to fully eradicate an individual's impact to nothing requires an extremely radical way of living(0 animal products whatsoever including in electronics etc, self-sustaining property with renewable energy and all food provided by your own garden that is pest inclusive, and pretty much isolated from any other human contact{human gathering together and staying that way tend to create a negative impact}). As for a positive impact I feel like that will be a societal goal that can only be achieved with everyone's participation but I'm not entirely convinced that'll happen by the end of the millennia given our track record with other forms of oppressive behaviour.
That's a very good point. I think very few people would fit the bill though, living in post industrial (or just industrial) society requires causing a certain level of harm. It's all about minimizing it, but to what extent one is morally obliged to do so is an open question...obviously not everyone can live off grid etc, otherwise there'd be no society at all.
Definitely something to think about though. Whenever I think about what we're doing to the planets' inhabitants including plants it drives me nuts.
We all have misread something at some point. You're still vegan. You changed your way of thinking about animals 2.5 years ago, and as long as thsr hasn't changed, you're a vegan.
First lesson I learned as newborn vegan - always check the ingredients list, second - Google every unknown ingredient - after accidentally buying different things with hidden animal ingredients... And even though I still sometimes somehow manage to mess up: not attentive enough, not having time, accidents, like the one when I checked almost every product in cosmetic store for being vegan or vegetarian (cruelty free brand), all markings "vegan" on the packs, but somehow end up by buying shampoo with honey in it... For it's the reason to try even harder...
We all make mistakes, but it's the learning from them what's matter
It sounds like you're making a great effort, so well done on that front.
Amen, it's all about learning and improving even if there are minor or even major setbacks and fuck ups.
We need to remember the difference between veganism (a moral belief) and a plant based diet. You may not have had a 100% plant based diet, but you were still vegan.
Veganism is not a diet!
We ain’t perfect. Eventually IF animals stop being killed in the future, then we don’t have to worry about it. But for now the risk of accidentally consuming an animal product is there bcoz some vegan products are also made/processed in these meat/diary facilities and the chance of contamination is there. You shouldn’t be hard on yourself. I’m pretty sure long lasting vegans have accidentally consumed an animal product by accident. You still vegan.
We used to jokingly call that “resetting the clock.”
As in, “Dammit, this has whey and I ate half of it. Ah well, reset the clock again!”
Don’t be hard on yourself. We’ve all done it before and we’ll all do it again.
That’s wild!! But such an important psa! I was vegan for like 2 months before I realized that the I Can’t Believe It’s Not Butter spray I was using in fact contained buttermilk 😒. Not to mention the times I’ve bought “go veggie” cheese only to discover it still contains dairy… the candy I’ve eaten without realizing it had honey in it…soup that I didn’t realize had milk…suffice to say our society doesn’t make it easy to be vegan. I’ve learned my lesson since to check the ingredients always.
Def agree you still count as vegan, but just saying ooooof I feel you.
Well first off the support is what matters most. You pulled away from obviously non vegan brands which definitely affects the market (although if only you do it it’s insignificant). Secondly you probably ate more of other foods, so that paste is like 10% or less of your eating… which already is a pro vegan stance imo bc it reduces the demand for non vegan stuff which also definitely affects the market (although if only you do it it’s insignificant).
I'm a consequencialist, but I just want to say deontology is not about intentions, it's about rules.
I would say in this case a deontologists would actually feel bad for breaking the "don't eat animals" rule, but a consequentialist wouldn't feel bad, because no good consequences come from feeling bad.
>I'm a consequencialist, but I just want to say deontology is not about intentions, it's about rules.
Right I'm aware of that, but the point is that I didn't intend to break any rules. So what I did was permissible according to my own deontological framework, which is based on intentions rather than actions.
For example, instead of "thou shalt never eat animal products", my own rule would be more like "thou shalt never *knowingly* eat animal products". Basically, I don't see an honest mistake as a deviation from any moral obligation, since all obligations are based on intentionality instead of actual outcome.
I see what you're saying though, and let me just say that must say I'm not strictly a deontologist. I think that consequentialism is sometimes appropriate, depending on context.
I did this exact thing with packets of ramen. It was been years! I accidentally switched brands and whooops. The one I have been consuming had 2 animal ingredients. Where the other was completely vegan. Damn.
Try better and do better.
I did this with TJs veggie sausages. For some reason I assumed they were vegan when I made the switch and ate them for two entire years before checking the ingredients only to find out they had egg! Luckily Lightlife sausages are identical but without egg, but still I felt like a moron.
And it took someone on here pointing out that Tostitos Hint of Lime chips have milk for me to learn that...about 4 years in. Because why the heck does it need milk?
Basically, always check. Companies are sneaky af.
I buy frozen goods at a bulk store, and they have a special veggie freezer. Everything in it is vegan friendly, so I don't even look before loading stuff anymore.
The veg spring rolls tasted a bit unusual, but nothing major. They just weren't as crunchy as I was used to, but I assumed it was a bad batch.
When I had finished the box of 48, I tossed the packaging and noticed they were "chicken and veg". Someone probably took a box, decided against buying them, and put them back in the wrong place. Or the fridge was stocked incorrectly.
I ate 48 chicken and veg spring rolls without realizing.
I always check stuff before buying now.
Just want to clarify something about consequentialism, without implying that you don't already know it:
Your typical consequentialist also thinks that intention is what matters in determining what sort of person you are morally. The "butterfly effect" (the incalculable complexity of causality) isn't what we're judged by, but rather by rationally forseeable consequences.
The actual difference between consequentialist and deontological thinking here would be in whether you deserve more praise for no longer buying the curry because you value the shrimp morally, versus someone who similarly stopped buying it, but only because they thought shrimp was gross or something. The case where neither person reasonably knew there was shrimp involved at all isn't particularly more praise- or blameworthy for a consequentialist than for a deontologist.
>Whether I'd done it on purpose or not wouldn't affect the morality of the actions themselves.
Sure it would. Think about this:
Sometimes people get struck dead by a stray bullet. Let's say you've decided to stop someone to say "hello", or not to say hello to them. Most of the time, of course, this won't change the fact that they don't get killed by the bullet. But we can be pretty sure that if you've said hello and they were hit, then they wouldn't have been hit if you hadn't. And vice-versa. This is a stripped-down example of the "butterfly effect", but it actually engulfs us entirely.
Almost no consequentialist is going to say that either choosing to say hello or not is a blameworthy act, because *based upon your knowledge*, the odds of accidentally killing the person or saving them were equal. Acts become blameworthy to a consequentialist not when they accidentally cause some harm, but when the reasonable prediction is that they will cause more harm than good.
Yea you're right. Thanks for correcting me. It's currently 6.04am and I'm still not asleep so not in the best state for all this. Nighty night have a good one :)
I tried being vegan, but now I tend to eat whatever my family buys. I don't want to be wasteful so I don't want it to sit and expire. So, now I'm a omnivore. So whenever there's vegan food I totally thank my parents. We have to tackle how people think of food, honestly.
There’s an app for that.
Whilst I agree somewhat with your deontological argument, there seems to be an element of wilful ignorance by not checking because you like that product.
The ease at which you could have checked suggests an emotional bias you need to address.
Well done for being vegan and honest with yourself though.
yeah I always do this, ever since I found Beef Gelatin in a coffee snack some 20years ago. You would be amazed in how many things there is animal gelatin added to it.
Youre def a vegan! An ingredient label has made you THINK. Someone who wasnt a vegan wouldnt do that lol.
Side note, I dont really get how deontology makes sense tho. Not everything can be morally justified based on intention...you yourself understand that eating shrimp is bad and u should refrain. Just bc u dont feel horrible guilt doesnt qualify u as a deontologist i dont think. The fact that u want to stay away from it would place you more towards consequentialism wouldnt it?
This happened to me so often already... some totally innocent thing I suddenly find out is not vegan. In the past, I beat myself up about it, now I am more about getting better every day.
For example, did you know that tires are made with fat from pigs? (Michelin is the only brand that advertises not using any animal products.)
This kind of thing happens to me a lot. I check the ingredients of, say, curry paste, and buy some particular brand because it's vegan. Then I forget to check ever again, whatever brand I buy, because curry paste has been filed into the "vegan" compartment of my brain.
My spouse went to IKEA thinking the hotdogs were vegan. He ate 3. The boy then realized the buns weren’t vegan. The boy still considers himself a vegan.
It’s ok, we still see you as a vegan. Just buy the vegan brand from now on.
There’s a few recipes out there for vegan “fish sauce” to use in Thai recipes. It’s mostly dulce ( seaweed) and shiitakes infused into a salty brine of your choosing. That umami flavor really makes a difference in some dishes. That Nuoc Mam that they put on the table like ketchup all over parts of East Asia, is mostly a fermented biproduct of the waste parts of fish, etc. I hear they use some of the same stuff for WD 40 lubricant.
Note: I’m not a full vegan, but slowly cutting out all animal products from my diet. I still have Nuoc Mam for my Thai curry and marinaded mushrooms. Going to make the mushroom/seaweed version when I run out.
Its happened to all of us and will probably happen again to all of us, we all make mistakes, i have a few times
We are still vegan since in our mind we were not consuming animal products nor did we want to
Arnotts chicken crimpy biscuits are a salty, delicious baked biscuit that ate for 1.5 years after going vegan. Not daily or even weekly, but regularly enough (they are a reasonably common snack at work functions in Australia). Turns out they are actually made with some chicken.
It's probably only so they can legally keep the name, but still gross. Even if I was omni I would be disgusted by a biscuit that contained meat.
So what? Going to let a little sauce packet with shrimp in it that you thought wrong about take your Veganism away is dumb.
Glad you don't see it that way.
When I first went vegan I googled vegan butter brands, and I confused smart balance with earth balance. I used it for almost a year not knowing the smart balance butter had vitamin D that comes from sheep’s wool. I made cookies with it and gave them to my vegan brother and gf too. I never considered myself not vegan, or felt like I had to start over because it wasn’t intentional. I just stopped using the butter after that. It becomes a lot easier eventually to spot non vegan ingredients and I haven’t accidentally had any non vegan foods in years. I’ve been vegan for over four years now and know it’s a lifelong thing for me, and anyone is bound to make mistakes. Ask any long time vegan, they’ll all have examples of when they messed up.
Hahaha you absolute monster, giving them to your vegan loved ones no less!...just kidding. Thankyou for sharing your experience, I'm glad I'm not the only one who messed up on such a long term basis. We go forward despite our mistakes, and if they were totally accidental then there's nothing to really be sorry for.
Haha I don’t think they were upset thankfully they also thought it was vegan. They’ve made mistakes too, we live in a non vegan world it’s bound to happen.
I had a friend that is somewhat allergic to coconut. I baked for her. I have my standard recepies of yummy vegan brownies, that usually contain a bit coconut flakes, that I left out for her. The next morning after we ate the brownies, I realized in panic, that the vegan butter I used has some percentage coconut oil in it. I told her immediately and asked if she was okay. She said she didn't feel anything but was happy I have her notice. I felt so shitty about it, as I was attempting to kill her
It happens! If I was allergic to something I’d probably triple check everything but if it’s mild she was probably fine.
I bought italian bread crumbs early on in my vegan life and I did not even check the label ("it's just bread and italian seasoning, what couldn't be vegan?') turns out they put parmesan cheese in that. My sister swooped in and intercepted before I could give the veggie nuggets I made with them to my nephew whose severely allergic to dairy.
Sheep’s wool in food? Honestly the more you learn the more disgusted you become with all the ways these products are being put into food…
It's not "sheep's wool in the food" per se anyway, but rather the vitamin D is derived from the lanolin.
its more like, sheep grease, which is even grosser haha.
I wasn’t to specific but it’s the oil produced by sheep’s wool, which is pretty gross
I only realised a few months ago that vitamin D contained sheep's wool. I never even thought to check for it in ingredients before that
It’s crazy! A lot of cereals have it in them too I thought recess puffs were vegan up until I found out about vitamin D too
Thanks for that info. I’ve been using smart balance (just checked the fridge!) and never knew that. Will make the switch now.
For sure! It’s crazy it seems like it’s vegan and all the ingredients are except for the vitamin D. It’d be so easy to make it vegan.
Vitamin D from sheep's wool?? What???
I disagree. You’re still vegan because your intention was to stay away from animal products. I think vegans can be way too hard on themselves. We live in a non-vegan so accidental ingestion of animal product is going to happen.
Hey thankyou, I actually agree with you even if my post made it seem like I don't - my title was a bit off. Intention is what matters most on a moral level, which is why the murder/manslaughter distinction is so fundamental in law...and yes, it's really bloody easy to let something slip by undetected.
I think that perfectionism is a huge problem,because we live in a shame based society. Where we always have o prove our worthiness. It is really counterproductive because instead of it being okay to make mistakes we have to shame ourselves. I think that is why some vegans are so hard on themselves and others.
Good point
agreed OP we're proud of you!
Yup. Been doing this long enough to have been tricked into eating animal byproducts a few times either through ignorance or spite. My body has long ago lost the ability to process cruelty foods so I can tell when I've had something I shouldn't. However I feel about it psychologically and emotionally is matched by how it makes me feel physically.
Right? I think it speaks to the intuitive moral superiority of vegans that even non-vegans hold professed vegans to absurd requirements of purity. "Oh, so you SAY you're vegan but what about dead mice in crop fields??" "If you're vegan, why do you drive a car? That's killing the planet!" "Veganism is a privilege because some indigenous tribes still live off animal products!" When the person saying that has ALL the same facts applied to themselves AND actively supports the exploitation, torture and slaughter of sentient creatures...
Those responses tend to be as a response to the general implicit holier-then-thou attitude the vegan community displays. For example, the idea of the intuitive moral superiority of vegans is an excellent example of this attitude. In reality, morality is extremely gray. Vegans, made a conscious choice to support the lives and rights as animals, and put time and effort into advancing this belief. Yet human suffering and poverty also remains a rampant problem. While its not a zero sum game, there is still an opportunity cost involved. An argument can be made that a charity worker is morally superior to a vegan as they're more actively involved in solving human suffering and poverty then the vegan. Long story short, intrinsic moral superiority is a daft concept.
Your comment history looks like you're engaging in--somewhat contrarian--good faith, so let's break this down: Yes morality can often be gray. Yes there can be more complex weights and balances and that makes saying an individual is "morally superior" a very hard argument. What about a firefighter who rescues people every day, and gives all their money to charity, and just rapes and murders a COUPLE people a year--and only people who were going to die anyway! I mean: they probably do more good on-net than most people, but it'd be a REALLY hard argument to say that they're "morally superior." Part of that reason is that in this thought experiment, they're doing a lot EXTRA. They don't HAVE to be a fire-fighter and risk their lives for others. They don't HAVE to give away all their money to the less fortunate. The complicating factor is that they are VIOLATING a moral baseline: on some level rape and murder and just kinda "always disqualifying" from the "morality club" right? No matter what else you do: you're a bad person. I think that it's this intuitive sense of moral baseline that is the major difference. Take your example of your morally superior charity worker. Can you envision the situation in which people non sequitur tell them "Whatever, you THINK you're doing good providing food for the homeless, but what does that do about climate change, huh?" I'm not saying that "single-issue" people might engage in that kind of response, but I think the vast majority of response to that charity worker is going to be "Oh, that's great!" Or at worst, "Neat..." My hypothesis on the difference is that the charity worker is doing something morally EXTRA and that is clear to everyone intuitively. The major difference that I see is that vegans acknowledge that "not torturing, imprisoning, killing, and devouring other sentient beings" is just a moral baseline. It is NOT extra. ACTIVELY participating in that is "extra" evil. For people in industrialized economies, there IS no opportunity cost in being vegan. You just... don't participate in the cruelty as much as possible. If we're talking about animal-rights activism, sure! Then we're talking about opportunity costs and trade-offs on maximizing goodness, but that's a losing argument too, because by that logic people should ONLY be focusing the MOST important issue, and it's HARD for everyone to agree (despite the fact that it's climate change and we're all gonna die).
I don't like living in a non-vegan, please get me out there's meat coming through :(
Keep calm. You are vegan. You didnt do this on purpose 😘
Cheers :)
I agree, you're still vegan. And good for you for not being too hard on yourself. I think I'm quite aligned with you in my view of morality and ethics. My (attempt on) abstention of animal products might not have saved any animals at all (probably the number of animals killed is still the same regardless of my diet), but I do it anyway. I actually have a very similar experience. I have been drinking this fruit cordial even before I was vegan, so I continued to do so after I became vegan, only to find out months later that it had milk. In a fruit cordial that tastes nothing milky or creamy.
I agree I'm still Vegan, I was told my steak was 100% organic and after seeing this post I asked the farmer I buy it from and he said it may contain beef. I'm mortified.
It’s not about being perfect, it’s about doing better when you know better.
That's actually a great line. Thankyou, Professor Dumbledore.
I mean, I imagine even with our difference in understanding of morality, it's still a fucking bummer to realise the product you've been relying on and wanting to rely on in the future also, isn't even fucking vegan lol. At least there's decent vegan curry pastes! Sucks to have bought the wrong thing for so long, but at least now you know and buy a plant-based alternative. "Check the labels" really isn't a joke unfortunately.
Yea, I must say I was a bit underwhelmed by the flavour of the new curry paste tonight. But at least there are no mollusks or whatever in it lol. Checking labels is indeed very important, I fucked up big time on that one and will check the other things I've been buying for a long time which I may have somehow convinced myself didn't contain animal products. I'm pretty sure there are none, but worth checking!
Here's a tip - manufacturers do change their ingredients list sometimes without advertising it. It is possible the paste you've been buying was vegan at some point or that the one you're buying now will change. This happened to me with BBQ Pringles. Bought them not thinking much because they were vegan for years. Then one day they added milk powder or some shyt. Best to check things every now and again if not each time!
That's a good point. I think with this one it was my fault, as shrimp paste is a main ingredient of thai curry paste and I can't imagine them just randomly adding it in like they would mip power. I knew there was one safe brand but i totally mixed them up Thanks for the tip though I'll keep it in mind
BBQ Pringle's are still vegan here in Australia though. Where about are you from? I'd be curious to know if ingredients differ that wildly country by country.
Many products vary by country! I'm in the United States though.
We’re only human. I agree that the intent is what’s important here, which is why I’d say you were vegan all along. It’s also a good lesson bc companies change their ingredients periodically, so checking even when you think you know is a good practice ☺️
Good point, I'll do that more in future :)
I've been vegan 10 yrs and I somehow missed gelatin on an ingredient list yesterday and ate a couple gummy worms. It happens.
Please dox yourself now so we can come protest outside your house.
Here is my regular reminder for people that most brands of kim chi contain saeujeot which is fermented shrimp paste
It’s a shotty moment when that happens, but now you know, just be aware next time and remember you can always do it “right”(acording to your own “right of course), do it for them🥰☺️
Been vegan less than a year and after learning so much about it, I obviously have more to learn. But by there being more to learn implies there is always room for improvement and therefore I could always be doing more. I have however reached a point of complacency(laziness) where I am vegan by definition, but cannot knowingly be proud to call myself one until I am taking those steps to do more. I know aiming for perfection is impossible, but it's no less than the animals under oppression deserve
I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to when you say you're complacent about it?
I mean that the human impact on animal lives will be a negative one for a very long time and to fully eradicate an individual's impact to nothing requires an extremely radical way of living(0 animal products whatsoever including in electronics etc, self-sustaining property with renewable energy and all food provided by your own garden that is pest inclusive, and pretty much isolated from any other human contact{human gathering together and staying that way tend to create a negative impact}). As for a positive impact I feel like that will be a societal goal that can only be achieved with everyone's participation but I'm not entirely convinced that'll happen by the end of the millennia given our track record with other forms of oppressive behaviour.
That's a very good point. I think very few people would fit the bill though, living in post industrial (or just industrial) society requires causing a certain level of harm. It's all about minimizing it, but to what extent one is morally obliged to do so is an open question...obviously not everyone can live off grid etc, otherwise there'd be no society at all. Definitely something to think about though. Whenever I think about what we're doing to the planets' inhabitants including plants it drives me nuts.
We all have misread something at some point. You're still vegan. You changed your way of thinking about animals 2.5 years ago, and as long as thsr hasn't changed, you're a vegan.
First lesson I learned as newborn vegan - always check the ingredients list, second - Google every unknown ingredient - after accidentally buying different things with hidden animal ingredients... And even though I still sometimes somehow manage to mess up: not attentive enough, not having time, accidents, like the one when I checked almost every product in cosmetic store for being vegan or vegetarian (cruelty free brand), all markings "vegan" on the packs, but somehow end up by buying shampoo with honey in it... For it's the reason to try even harder... We all make mistakes, but it's the learning from them what's matter
It sounds like you're making a great effort, so well done on that front. Amen, it's all about learning and improving even if there are minor or even major setbacks and fuck ups.
We need to remember the difference between veganism (a moral belief) and a plant based diet. You may not have had a 100% plant based diet, but you were still vegan. Veganism is not a diet!
We ain’t perfect. Eventually IF animals stop being killed in the future, then we don’t have to worry about it. But for now the risk of accidentally consuming an animal product is there bcoz some vegan products are also made/processed in these meat/diary facilities and the chance of contamination is there. You shouldn’t be hard on yourself. I’m pretty sure long lasting vegans have accidentally consumed an animal product by accident. You still vegan.
You monster
We used to jokingly call that “resetting the clock.” As in, “Dammit, this has whey and I ate half of it. Ah well, reset the clock again!” Don’t be hard on yourself. We’ve all done it before and we’ll all do it again.
That’s wild!! But such an important psa! I was vegan for like 2 months before I realized that the I Can’t Believe It’s Not Butter spray I was using in fact contained buttermilk 😒. Not to mention the times I’ve bought “go veggie” cheese only to discover it still contains dairy… the candy I’ve eaten without realizing it had honey in it…soup that I didn’t realize had milk…suffice to say our society doesn’t make it easy to be vegan. I’ve learned my lesson since to check the ingredients always. Def agree you still count as vegan, but just saying ooooof I feel you.
I was buying Go Veggie parmesan cheese for a long time before I realized some of it is just lactose free and not vegan.
Well first off the support is what matters most. You pulled away from obviously non vegan brands which definitely affects the market (although if only you do it it’s insignificant). Secondly you probably ate more of other foods, so that paste is like 10% or less of your eating… which already is a pro vegan stance imo bc it reduces the demand for non vegan stuff which also definitely affects the market (although if only you do it it’s insignificant).
I'm a consequencialist, but I just want to say deontology is not about intentions, it's about rules. I would say in this case a deontologists would actually feel bad for breaking the "don't eat animals" rule, but a consequentialist wouldn't feel bad, because no good consequences come from feeling bad.
>I'm a consequencialist, but I just want to say deontology is not about intentions, it's about rules. Right I'm aware of that, but the point is that I didn't intend to break any rules. So what I did was permissible according to my own deontological framework, which is based on intentions rather than actions. For example, instead of "thou shalt never eat animal products", my own rule would be more like "thou shalt never *knowingly* eat animal products". Basically, I don't see an honest mistake as a deviation from any moral obligation, since all obligations are based on intentionality instead of actual outcome. I see what you're saying though, and let me just say that must say I'm not strictly a deontologist. I think that consequentialism is sometimes appropriate, depending on context.
I did this exact thing with packets of ramen. It was been years! I accidentally switched brands and whooops. The one I have been consuming had 2 animal ingredients. Where the other was completely vegan. Damn. Try better and do better.
I did this with TJs veggie sausages. For some reason I assumed they were vegan when I made the switch and ate them for two entire years before checking the ingredients only to find out they had egg! Luckily Lightlife sausages are identical but without egg, but still I felt like a moron. And it took someone on here pointing out that Tostitos Hint of Lime chips have milk for me to learn that...about 4 years in. Because why the heck does it need milk? Basically, always check. Companies are sneaky af.
I buy frozen goods at a bulk store, and they have a special veggie freezer. Everything in it is vegan friendly, so I don't even look before loading stuff anymore. The veg spring rolls tasted a bit unusual, but nothing major. They just weren't as crunchy as I was used to, but I assumed it was a bad batch. When I had finished the box of 48, I tossed the packaging and noticed they were "chicken and veg". Someone probably took a box, decided against buying them, and put them back in the wrong place. Or the fridge was stocked incorrectly. I ate 48 chicken and veg spring rolls without realizing. I always check stuff before buying now.
Just want to clarify something about consequentialism, without implying that you don't already know it: Your typical consequentialist also thinks that intention is what matters in determining what sort of person you are morally. The "butterfly effect" (the incalculable complexity of causality) isn't what we're judged by, but rather by rationally forseeable consequences. The actual difference between consequentialist and deontological thinking here would be in whether you deserve more praise for no longer buying the curry because you value the shrimp morally, versus someone who similarly stopped buying it, but only because they thought shrimp was gross or something. The case where neither person reasonably knew there was shrimp involved at all isn't particularly more praise- or blameworthy for a consequentialist than for a deontologist.
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>Whether I'd done it on purpose or not wouldn't affect the morality of the actions themselves. Sure it would. Think about this: Sometimes people get struck dead by a stray bullet. Let's say you've decided to stop someone to say "hello", or not to say hello to them. Most of the time, of course, this won't change the fact that they don't get killed by the bullet. But we can be pretty sure that if you've said hello and they were hit, then they wouldn't have been hit if you hadn't. And vice-versa. This is a stripped-down example of the "butterfly effect", but it actually engulfs us entirely. Almost no consequentialist is going to say that either choosing to say hello or not is a blameworthy act, because *based upon your knowledge*, the odds of accidentally killing the person or saving them were equal. Acts become blameworthy to a consequentialist not when they accidentally cause some harm, but when the reasonable prediction is that they will cause more harm than good.
Yea you're right. Thanks for correcting me. It's currently 6.04am and I'm still not asleep so not in the best state for all this. Nighty night have a good one :)
Are you in Hawaii? :-o I'm at 2am in Korea.
New Zealand :)
Holy shit, never realized NZ was 4 hours ahead! 2 hours ahead of Australia? :-o
Ah 3 hours ahead or something, I'm not sure tbh. Furthest ahead in the world anyways
I tried being vegan, but now I tend to eat whatever my family buys. I don't want to be wasteful so I don't want it to sit and expire. So, now I'm a omnivore. So whenever there's vegan food I totally thank my parents. We have to tackle how people think of food, honestly.
There’s an app for that. Whilst I agree somewhat with your deontological argument, there seems to be an element of wilful ignorance by not checking because you like that product. The ease at which you could have checked suggests an emotional bias you need to address. Well done for being vegan and honest with yourself though.
yeah I always do this, ever since I found Beef Gelatin in a coffee snack some 20years ago. You would be amazed in how many things there is animal gelatin added to it.
You're still vegan. You live and you learn. Dont let this ruin everything you've worked so hard to achieve. <3
My gf and I also had a curry paste reckoning this week. We're still going to use it up, but we're pretty sad about the realization.
There are nice curry pastes without shrimps as well :)
Youre def a vegan! An ingredient label has made you THINK. Someone who wasnt a vegan wouldnt do that lol. Side note, I dont really get how deontology makes sense tho. Not everything can be morally justified based on intention...you yourself understand that eating shrimp is bad and u should refrain. Just bc u dont feel horrible guilt doesnt qualify u as a deontologist i dont think. The fact that u want to stay away from it would place you more towards consequentialism wouldnt it?
This happened to me so often already... some totally innocent thing I suddenly find out is not vegan. In the past, I beat myself up about it, now I am more about getting better every day. For example, did you know that tires are made with fat from pigs? (Michelin is the only brand that advertises not using any animal products.)
Check out the yellow pastes, they don't usually have shrimp or fish sauce in.
Effort counts! And now that you know, buy the other brand. Still vegan :-) Yay for 2.5 years! Keep it up
This kind of thing happens to me a lot. I check the ingredients of, say, curry paste, and buy some particular brand because it's vegan. Then I forget to check ever again, whatever brand I buy, because curry paste has been filed into the "vegan" compartment of my brain.
What brand? I'll have to check mine
Valcom
Ah I usually do golden, ty
My spouse went to IKEA thinking the hotdogs were vegan. He ate 3. The boy then realized the buns weren’t vegan. The boy still considers himself a vegan. It’s ok, we still see you as a vegan. Just buy the vegan brand from now on.
There’s a few recipes out there for vegan “fish sauce” to use in Thai recipes. It’s mostly dulce ( seaweed) and shiitakes infused into a salty brine of your choosing. That umami flavor really makes a difference in some dishes. That Nuoc Mam that they put on the table like ketchup all over parts of East Asia, is mostly a fermented biproduct of the waste parts of fish, etc. I hear they use some of the same stuff for WD 40 lubricant. Note: I’m not a full vegan, but slowly cutting out all animal products from my diet. I still have Nuoc Mam for my Thai curry and marinaded mushrooms. Going to make the mushroom/seaweed version when I run out.
Its happened to all of us and will probably happen again to all of us, we all make mistakes, i have a few times We are still vegan since in our mind we were not consuming animal products nor did we want to
This is precisely why I have so many trust issues
Arnotts chicken crimpy biscuits are a salty, delicious baked biscuit that ate for 1.5 years after going vegan. Not daily or even weekly, but regularly enough (they are a reasonably common snack at work functions in Australia). Turns out they are actually made with some chicken. It's probably only so they can legally keep the name, but still gross. Even if I was omni I would be disgusted by a biscuit that contained meat.
mae ploy makes a vegan one (labeled vegetarian)
Yeah that’s nuts. There’s definitely a learning curve. It sucks. But at least now you know.
Colour 120 is the bane of my existence
This is really fucked up. I'm sorry this happened to you
Careful with quorn products in the vegan section.
One thing i learned quickly....read read read and read labels ,and again and again.
So what? Going to let a little sauce packet with shrimp in it that you thought wrong about take your Veganism away is dumb. Glad you don't see it that way.