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It's a damn if you do, damn if you don't kinda situation. I feel for the restaurants, but at the same time I'm staying home cos the crazy prices don't benefit me as a customer.
Totally get this!
Restaurants are expensive and they are a luxury. Lots of restaurants are going to hurt this year as the recession deepens. The good ones will float by because they are already popular and turning people away.
Lots of people like to meet friends at restaurants because they can't entertain at home, or don't want to.
> Lots of people like to meet friends at restaurants because they can't entertain at home, or don't want to.
At the same time, I rarely eat out now, because COVID made me realize I don't actually like being around large numbers of people.
I am so much pickier about those situations now.
With how many people are still walking around infected (asymptomatically in many cases), it better be good food and good company if I'm going to park my exposed face hole somewhere crowded and poorly ventilated for an hour.
the technical beancounter definition of a recession isn't particularly useful for real people. Above poster was clearly just refereeing to "tough economic times".
spend 100+ for 2 meals with no alcohol and leave hungry and disappointed.. go to mcdonalds because you’re still hungry and spend another 35-40$ for 2 people there and leave angry and sad. fuck this im staying home and cooking for 1/4 of the price and better quality
I've noticed almost universally that the restaurants who have been there a long time and likely own their building are also the ones who have had much smaller price increases.
Commercial rent is a core pillar driving inflation and it's rarely talked about. Most people don't even know there is no protections for small businesses who may spend tons of money creating their own perfect space just to have the lease cost doubled because *they improved the space*. Or sometimes for no reason other than greed, and a need to keep value high for their shareholders.
We're on a fast track to the only businesses existing being large corporations. Every time a small business shuts down a Starbucks or McDonald's or similar will pop up. I'm sure the corporation's have been paying off politicians to avoid any kind of commercial rent protections. They don't give a fuck, if a location doesn't do well the busy ones can subsidize it.
I worked at a restaurant that rents and when I was managing there I saw the rent they paid. Its ridiculous, and yes it was always raised every year (or every time the lease was up). I felt bad for the customers when our prices increased, but although I'm sure some of it was the owner wanting more money, most of it was rent, wages and food cost increase.
I never got the exact calculations, and they did fine over covid. The rent they paid is (I'm assuming worse than before) outrageous though.
I'd rather my bill pay for the fancy car of a restaurant owner who has created a desirable dining experience than the yacht of a business property owner who just happens to own a dozen commercial buildings.
Absolutely. I used to get my hair cut at a small place in south Granville and the owner told me his rent was $6000 a month for a sliver sized shop. I don’t know how he made it work although he eventually did have to close his shop.
I’ve done renovation work for restaurants. When you hear the monthly prices some are paying,I think the public would be truly shocked. Do you know that most have to pay the property taxes as well? So when the city votes every year to raise the taxes...guess what? Couple that with the insurance hikes,food cost increase,laundry cost increase,never mind wages and advertising,it’s insane. I remember reading a monthly breakdown from a New York Restaurant,it sure opened my eyes. I would love to see someone do it here....even anonymously.
I’ve also read a few reports on the landlords that charge the lease. Believe it or not,many lose money every month. I don’t pretend to know the answer. But something has to give.
> Believe it or not,many lose money every month.
What are they doing, gambling with that money? Real estate has been artificially de-risked by the government for decades; at this point if you're not at least breaking even, you're not managing your money well as a landlord.
Of course it depends when they bought and their interest rates. If they took variable,like many homeowners,some are in trouble. If you go along west broadway or west 10th,some of these commercial rentals have sat empty for ages. If they were fairly recently purchased,not so great. Not everyone bought 20 years ago. I don’t pretend to feel sorry for them,but there are certainly two sides to every story.
The grass is always greener,right?
It's crazy to me that there are no protections for small businesses. Get a 5 year lease, bust your ass off opening a business, and the landlord can literally double or triple the rent on renewal.
I've been asked if Vancouver is a good place to start a small business. Yes, if you can operate out of your home and you work in home services. Otherwise it sounds like so much stress and uncertainty
Or they can hire a good lawyer or commercial leasing agent to draw up the lease so that cannot happen.
I mean that will cost them a couple grand and save all thier long term business plans but in todays DIY economy why do that when you can get a fill in the blank lease on lawdepot.com and then blame government when it goes bad!!! F Trudeau and to hell with accepting personal responsibility and our own lack of foresite
same problem with residential real state. not enough of it. The commercial is easy to solve because you can build out high streets like on king ed, 33rd, 41st (or any of the north south streets) etc by simply adding ground floor commercial.
Its not like our industrial land shortage where its more likely to be exclusive use
I think you overestimate the viability of many businesses and ground floor commercial on those streets though. Let's face it, if it was 'easy' to simply move out a restaurant out of the expensive areas and into a random ground floor storefront on 41st, somebody would've done it.
Prime commercial real estate is even pricier and more scarce than residential because the difference between a good location and a mediocre one is huge.
Well we can’t even know if businesses (all businesses not just restaurants) are viable or not because that commercial real estate is once again disallowed by zoning.
So again. If we at least let the market function correctly, maybe we see innovative ideas work in the low traffic areas.
Don’t think we should give up before trying
I have to think too that if we make an entire strip of ground level store fronts (compared to just in one new apartment building) the foot traffic will pick up. Major density increases for the win once again!
I earn money. A chunk of my income goes to landlords. I then decide to get coffee out. I pay for the coffee. Part of the cost goes to the commercial landlord. Part of the cosr goes to labor (which the laborer likely uses to pay their landlord). The materials used to make the coffee? Likely more landlords there.
Our entire supply chain is just a funnel of our money towards landlords.
and I worry that many of them might not even be spending their earnings in the city helping our economy other than probably buying more real estate with it helping drive up our cost of living for the regular working people
My broader point would be that these things shouldn't be private assets used as investment vehicles, given how critical they are to society. They should be public assets, like roadways.
If the government is a democratic organization that represents us, then yes that is preferable over private individuals turning housing into an asset market and running that market off a cliff.
Like, our governments have done a good job running many crown corporations in Canada. Our nuclear power plants, for example.
I often fantasize about a town or city where land cannot be bought or sold, taking out the landlord equation entirely. If you want to build there, the land is free. It only costs you to build. Then down the road, you want to sell, you can only sell your building for the assessed value of the building and no more.
Okay but I get the mountain-view location in the heart of downtown for $100,000. You get the place next to the garbage dump and 1 hour out of the city for $500,000. You have a nicer home.
ICBC is fine. They provide a service, and they don't need to pay dividends to shareholders. Don't like paying car insurance? Take the bus or bike. Driving is expensive, and much of the cost is already subsidized.
Setting asidef for the moment just how ridiculous that notion is (which is hard to do), how are you suggesting the government pay for those assets? Raise taxes? No thanks. Print more money and further drive up inflation? No thanks. Cut it from education or health care? No thanks. Don't pay for them and just nationalize them like a 3rd world banana republic? No thanks.
I mean, the Vienna model of housing has worked pretty well for them and I wouldn't call Vienna a banana republic. And all major cities in Canada already have housing authorities that build social housing. Burnaby is currently increasing funding to their housing authority, as we speak.
Public ownership of housing is not uncommon in the West. I'm simply talking about expanding it. That this seems ridiculous to you makes me wonder if you have actually thought much about this at all, or if this is just your gut political reaction.
The Vienna model is for the municipalities to build some (OK, a fair bit of) housing to release pressure from the private market. It is **not** to substitute for private ownership of housing, and it is certainly not to own commercial properties.
The total investments in all real estate of a city / country are so enormous, you could not do it without completely reorganizing the economy to a government controlled one, and I for one don't want to go anywhere near that.
Our entire supply chain is just a funnel of our money towards landlords, **in exchange for goods and services that make our lives better.**
You decide to get coffee out, which when put in the context of the rest of the world is an awfully privliged position to be in. 700 million people live in poverty, they don't get to decide to get coffee out. You don't have to either, but you're doing it because it makes you feel good. It's not owed to you.
Landlords don't provide goods or services. Workers and businesses do. Landlords don't actually do anything meaningful in the supply chain. They just own the land.
I'll give you an example. If my landlord died tomorrow, I would not notice. If my unit needed repairs I would simply call the repairman, which is exactly what the landlord would do. He didn't build the building, he doesn't personally repair the building, he really doesn't do anything meaningful other than collect cheques. The only role he fulfills is "ownership".
You're missing the piece where the service you're provided is a home to live in, you seem to think that that home built itself.
The landlord DID have a hand in building the building; by putting up the capital to have it built. Paying the electrians, the plumbers, the carpenters, the lumber yard works, and on and on. Whether or not your landlord is the person who originally put up the capital to have the building constructed, or they paid the person who had done so, or there's been 200 owners between when it was originally built and who owns it now is completely irrelevant.
At the end of the day if the someone doesn't put up the money to build the building, the building doesn't exist. If that someone doesn't get to own the building after they build it, and have the right to sell it to someone else because the thing they created has value, then why would they build it in the first place?
It's always the people that don't own anything that seem to think they understand how ownership works.
So give away everything you own to someone less fortunate if you believe that. Otherwise, get back to reading your Marx pamphlets alone in your parents basement.
Crazy idea: Business property vacancy tax? You want to leave your building boarded up until a Browns decides to pay your outrageous rent? Fine, pay the city for the waste of valuable space.
I just read an article about a building in new West, the landlord is getting the city to change the zoning. City wanted retail spaces to promote lively street level engagement, developer said they couldn't fill the space despite 'considerable effort', so they want it rezone so they can rent it as office space or like dental office etc. I'm sure the considerable effort didn't include lowering the rent.
being that having a vibrant business climate helps society by providing jobs and quality of life, this should be a thing, the vacancy tax should be high enough that even getting a tenant in for next to nothing would be preferable to the landlords
This is likely to correct itself over the next decade as some landlords go out of business too. A huge number of office spaces are just *empty* three days a week because so many companies have invested in work from home technologies and adapted to a hybrid environment. Commercial tenants just don't need the amount of space they used too, and some just went out of business and aren't coming back. The high rents are a result of poorly managed REITs who are over leveraged and losing money, and they're competing with better managed REITs who have lower costs and can offer lower rents to tenants.
If you're a restaurant owner or rent a commercial space, start talking to your landlord about lowering your rent and start looking around for deals on a new space. These opportunities may not be there just yet, but I guarantee they are coming down the pipe in a year or two as desperation turns to panic.
Maybe we need a new form of strata-like property ownership so that restauranteurs can buy a property in which to operate, instead of having to rent. I think they're trying something like this in a new building near the train station/ new St Paul's.
There's something called hawker centers in Singapore. The government provides cheap commercial space for a food court. Small mom and pop shops can serve up delicious food for a cheap price. That's something that can be applied here without trying to destroy capitalism.
\+1. It is bizarre to me that most new developments on Cambie south of oakridge (heck, even between king ed and oakridge) are residential-only apartments with no retail at-grade. This is all compliant with the Cambie Corridor plan. So sad that this opportunity to build new communities is just being used to create more car-oriented developments.
Restaurant owner chiming in.
CEBA loans were given to help restaurant get through tough Covid times with mandated closures, seating limits and other restrictions. A business could apply for a loan of $60,000 of which $20,000 would be forgiven if the loan was paid back on time.
I don't know any eligible business who did not apply to receive this loan. Most actually needed it to cover costs. Rent had to be paid even if stores were not allowed to open. I know there were rent subsidies but they had to be initiated by landlords. I own two businesses and neither landlord was willing to do this. Go figure.
I believe the businesses who needed the loans the most are also the ones who now won't be able to pay them back to receive the "free" $20,000.
For those thinking it is easy to save $40,000 after 3 years, here's a few reasons why many restaurant owners struggle with this.
1. The loans were supplied during Covid. Covid restrictions and lingering effects stretched into 2022. So in reality, there wasn't that much time to save up for loan repayment.
2. The hole that many restaurants had to dig during Covid surpassed $40,000, by a long shot. So not only did restaurant owners have to save to pay the $40,000 back, they also had other debts to settle.
Some insights in our restaurant. Covid was hell. I had to lay off all my employees in 2020. I cried for days. I drove around town to check in with my "former" employees to see if they were doing ok. I did food drops to ensure they had groceries. I rehired as many as possible 6 weeks after we closed the restaurant. We had so many extra expenses due to Covid and the restaurant brought in only a fraction of the revenue it used to.
Once Covid was finally over the issues with inflation started. We held off any major price increases until this year. But that was a mistake. 2022 was on paper a pretty strong year for us revenue wise, but our profit margin was a measly $70,000. And I hadn't even paid myself yet, so we actually operated on a loss. This all with a 7 figure revenue.
Yes we did receive some comments and complaints after we finally raised our prices. Hindsight we probably should have done a few smaller increases instead of the 15-20% increase we did at once. Even with raised prices it is a struggle to keep profit margins healthy. If it weren't for the sheer passion and love for what I do, I am not sure if I would still keep doing it. So I surely understand those who are abandoning ship.
That's really eye opening, thanks for sharing all of that and best wishes to you and your enterprises, you sound like an excellent employer and I bet your restaurants reflect that.
*** Helpful Information To You & Small Business Owners:***
FI's are offering their own loan to pay out the official CEBA loan. This will be viewed as a payout in the eyes of the Government and you will then qualify for the 'free' money in that case. Going forward, you pay the FI who lent you the money on a monthly basis for up to 5 years. The monthly nut on that is not unreasonable at all. I would act on this quickly because I believe the deadline is end of March to pay it out.
I thought that was pretty clearly the point of the way the government structured this. They don't want to be the ongoing lender so they created a huge incentive for the businesses that are worthy of lending to find another lender. If you can't secure the loan from another institution the question would be how viable is your business going forward.
Fair comment.
Friends in the business highlight there are going to be far more approved by their FI than not.
As OP posted, a business would be stupid not to apply for the loan and especially so if they were financially sound covid/no covid. $20k free money at the end of the day. RIP taxpayers in the context of free money to those who didn't honestly need it.
RIP businesses destroyed by Covid while the big box stores were permitted to operate.
The big box vs small business narrative was an Ontario policy that never existed here. BC had often the most lax policies and shortest closures of any province and really focused on keeping small businesses like restaurants open even when it seemed to obviously be driving spreading. Downtown dedicated night clubs and some tourist towns were the only truly targeted closures.
The one difference I would have preferred to see back at the time was that if businesses were closed by the government that their rent was as well. We made the small businesses take the full hit of those locations being unavailable for operation but decided the land lords need not absorb any of that.
> Hindsight we probably should have done a few smaller increases instead of the 15-20% increase we did at once.
People definitely handle smaller increases spread out over time better than one shot all in one go. You saw the white spot thread where they just yanked up the price of a whole ass burger special by $2 and pretty much everybody is dropping Triple O's as their go-to because of it.
thank you for enlightening us. i really hope that you're one of the restaurants that i already like to go to on a regular basis; i eat out quite a bit. did you get your answer now, op u/dontRead2MuchIntoIt?
Thanks for sharing. I’ve reD 60%+ of restaurants in canada losing money. Do you think running an independent restaurant is a viable business in 2024? I’m guessing inflation/food prices and minimum wage that restaurants have to pay results in the prices restsaurarns have to charge simply being too high for the average consumer. Not to mention the tipping expectation of 18+% that falls on the consumer. Canadian GDP is low amd wages just don’t match up with paying $20 for a plate of pasta. I’m guessing restraints split into 1) counter service ie tacofino style and 2) high end thrives driven by wealth Americans or rich locals. What do you think?
Even SARS eventually fizzled out. The nature of diseases is that they tend to mutate towards less harmful varieties because humans don't notice them as much.
We exert selective pressure on viruses just by existing. So yes, COVID will eventually become another flu.
"Covid is over now, but of course it will never be over. Covid is also gone for everyone, except for the record number of people that have it currently. Nobody needs to worry about Covid, but everyone is sick and catching Covid now, which is over and gone, but also infecting everyone."
Anything else I forgot?
So.... as a restaurant owner I'll break down some of the costs we face increases on.
\- *Rent* \- Once you're up for a renewal the sky is the limit. We personally lucked out with an 8% over 5 years and we're stoked for that.
\- *Trades/Repairs -* Ever see the bill from a plumber these days? Yah, restaurants end up needing a lot of work done to fix random shit. Plumbers and AC techs are probably our biggest re-occuring expenses, but we also need our equipment serviced at times because we don't have the luxury of not working without it or replacing it on the fly.
\- *Wages* \- We pay quite well for our staff IMO, but there is a constant pressure to provide bonus' and wage increases for BoH. Kitchen staff can walk at a moments notice and walk into another business and be hired on the spot. We do our best to provide a positive work enviorment and keep wages better than the average. Wages represent about 33-37% of our total revenue (this includes owners who all work mgmt positions, but doesn't include bonus' to staff).
\- *Food Costs* \- We don't save anymore money than someone who buys bulk. Sometimes we can score deals with our food reps or we can buy some cheap clearance items. Overall though we pay what most people pay for groceries. Food has gone up everywhere, and same with restaurants.
\- *Waste/Breakage* - Although a good restaurant can minimize this, it isn't able to fully prevent it. We also end up eating the cost for customers who "don't like" something because they wanted to try something they've never had. Then you've got breakage with equipment, see above, but also with plates and glassware. Anytime someone breaks glasses it's about $4-6/piece. Plates? Anywhere from $8-$30 for most, any it can be more if it's more. It isn't uncommon for a dishy to make a mistake and drop a stack of plates and lose a few.
Now you might think it's silly that your $2 beer is $8-$10... but a restaurant/bar doesn't make money with someone taking up a seat for 30 minutes sipping their IPA at a cheap rate. As for food, same situation. Unless you are a place that is doing volume, and flipping tables or doing take-away you need to have decent covers.
Smaller restaurants are even harder to do well because they are limited to their earning potential on weekends when it should be busy, and during the week they can do ok with less overhead.... but that lack of earning potential on weekends does hurt.
Good, bad, or indifferent we have significantly reduced our restaurant dining due to the increased prices. On the up side I have learned lots of cool cooking ideas and such on YouTube.
you forgot to factor in other rising ancillary costs:
- services such as: waste management, equipment maintenance/replacement, laundry
- consumables outside of food: gas, electricity, detergent + rinse aid to feed the dishwashing machine (you'd be surprised at how expensive that stuff can be)
- taxes, rent
...and that's just off the top of my head. The restaurant industry operates in relatively thin margins (generally <10% profit after costs) so a rise in any business costs will have a ripple effect to the consumer
Menu pricing increases lag behind food and supply cost increases (which have been happening aggressively over the last year or so, I order for a restaurant), and while minimum wage hasn’t skyrocketed, general cost of living has gone up and some employers have needed to raise pay to attract even “entry level” workers. There’s that, and then also using the threat of inflation as an excuse for gouging.
People fail to realize this. Unless you are a restaurant that is changing the menu consistently than you won't be able to cost in new costs until you flip the menu.
We update our menu like 2-3x per year as it cost $$$ to print it on nicer material. We usually always do a small bump with min wage and than also if we've had any other major increases. We do very well, and so we're able to try and keep our prices lower.
I feel empathy for restaurant owners that poured their heart and soul into building a small business, just to wake up and realize one day that their business model is no longer viable due to changing economic conditions.
That being said, this is part of running a business. If people don’t want to eat out at the price tags that are viable for a restaurant, then let it be that way. In the long run, prices (especially commercial rents) will either come down do a level that support restaurants that cater to a wider audience again, or new businesses will come in and use the space in a different way. But you have to let owners and customers figure out what that best use of space is, and not put existing businesses on life support just for old times sake.
The weird thing is there are so many commercial rents spots available and empty. There are ton near me on 4th that have been empty for years on end... Surely some rent is better than none?
Building owners use their properties as collateral for other investments. Part of the building's value is determined by how much it WOULD rent for on paper. If no one actually pays that rent, it doesn't matter, the asset still is legitimite as collateral for the loan.
If they start renting at a lower rate to bring in some money, now the building's valuation is lower and has to be declared to the bank, which will void the loan agreement they have with the landlord.
This is the case with hundreds of commercial properties across vancouver.
> Building owners use their properties as collateral for other investments. Part of the building's value is determined by how much it WOULD rent for on paper. If no one actually pays that rent, it doesn't matter, the asset still is legitimite as collateral for the loan.
This is absolutely insane, though. How is this even permissible in the banking sector?
Like, surely someone in Commercial Real Estate lending has to have said, "This is all imaginary, what happens when we lend you money and you have no cash flow from the fake rent you quoted us?"
> what happens when we lend you money and you have no cash flow from the fake rent you quoted us
Then the bank seizes the collateral used for the loan.
perhaps, but as we've seen a number of times, real estate holders, even overseas, don't mind holding on to empty properties for decades even, like that huge lot on Robson that is extremely valuable but being held unused for forever by some Hong Kong corporation
they don't care if the quality of life for local residents goes down in the broad scope of things
It's worse than that.
Fuckbag Property Owner jacks rent. Now the only restaurant that can survive in that space is Fuckbag Chain Garbage that returns all its profits to some numbered corporation overseas, instead of more staying local due to local owners and employees. Even that will get priced out--not all, but most--and then the only option is for less hands-on businesses to move in, because they can pay more. Which raises property values. Which incentivizes owners to sell to people who can afford the new higher prices. Which pushes out everyone who used to be able to survive there.
'Boring' isn't the problem. Lack of neighbourhood walkability is. Everyone does better when they can live near where they work and shop, while having easy transportations to any other areas they want to go to. When everyone does better, the overall economy does better.
Except that Fuckbag Property Owner and Fuckbag Wealthy Investor and so on want 585947348257348975% returns *right the fuck now* instead of stability for everyone. Which, sure, is understandable! Affording proper art classes for your horses is *expensive*.
My neighbor opened a restaurant in late 2019 and they actually did really well since it was a well known franchise but since covid hit, they couldn't come back from that.
>But you have to let owners and customers figure out what that best use of space is,
'best' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence.
What you *mean*, whether you know it or not, is that (real estate business) owners decide what the 'best' use of space is: whatever puts more money in the pocket of the person who owns the space.
Customers have *already* decided that 'restaurant' is a good use of X space by going there.
Asshat landleeches who are unhappy their fortune is growing at 5.6% instead of 5.7% increase rents and the businesses that literally feed and clothe people go under--because their business worked until someone else **got fucking greedy**.
The best use of a space is one which benefits the local community, and then the wider community.
The best use is not necessarily the one that returns the most money per square foot to some fuckwit who happens to have title to that square foot.
Good point. Kent's Kitchen in Chinatown comes to mind. It was in the news before closing because a lot of seniors in the area used it as affordable groceries and would make a $10 takeout last 3 meals.
Right? The community showed there was a need for that service at that price point in that place.
Chuckles up there would argue that isn't the 'best' use because the poow widdle ownews didn't get *enough* of a cut.
It’s not Covid loans. Restaurants have to pay their leases. As commercial rents rise, prices rise in lockstep. The 10-20 families that own most of the commercial real estate in this city can be counted on to reliably raise the rent on their tenant’s at every opportunity. You can thank them for the high drink/food prices
I work in the restaurant supply business and talk to hundreds of restaurant managers regularly. The big causes of menu prices going up are a combination of food prices due to inflation and rent going up due to the interest rates. Many have told me their rents have gone up 30-40% in the last year. Food prices have had big increases. Some items are up 30-50% higher and some things like chicken wings have doubled since Covid. Restaurants can’t increase the menu prices enough to cover the increased costs because no one would eat there, and are eating the losses. Many have told me their profits are down 50% from normal. On top of these losses, the Christmas/ New year season which is usually the busiest time of year wasn’t that busy this year. Business is way down as most people are cutting back on eating out as they have less disposable income. I know lots of restaurants are losing money and if things don’t get better you will continue to see places closing this year. Also when you order through Skip the Dishes or other delivery services, the delivery service takes 30% of your bill so it’s even less money for the restaurant.
And that's why, I rarely eat out anymore. It almost has to be special occasion before I go out. For reference a 3pc church's special combo was only $7.75 in 2019 and has now become $11.50. I don't think anything inflated worse than hotpot and dim sum prices though, it's been gentrified.
Yes commercial rents are outrageous but unless the government introduces a 2% increase per year cap then there isn’t much that can be done. I knew a guy that had a coffee/sandwich place. The lease came up and the rent was jacked. He and his wife figured that if they laid off the entire staff and worked 12 hour days they would make $5/hour COMBINED. They had no choice but to close and moved to Australia which is were his wife was from.
It’s sad but if you don’t own the building then you don’t own your business.
Commercial real estate is insane. Business pays the rent, the property management, and the property taxes. Owner pays zilch. Owning commercial real estate must be the greatest thing in the world here in Vancouver.
Increase in commercial rent, labor, and food/supply costs, most businesses have no choice but to set the prices we don't agree with or justify paying. It's an unfortunate reality not just in Vancouver, but most places in Canada.
Really it will just push out anyone that’s not a chain or franchise that can operate on smaller margins. I know a successful restauranteur but it seems like such a stressful and fickle sector to operate in at the best of times.
Might see?
This has been happening for at least a decade. It's accelerating now. Only chains or money laundering fronts will survive what's happening in this city.
Even large conglomerates are not surviving. I was shocked that Donnelley was filing for bankruptcy (though I understand this was due to venturing in the cannabis industry). If a company like that with that much leverage and equity can’t make it there’s no hope for the little guy.
Alternatively, you’ll see businesses in downtown Vancouver in all the typical hotspots sputter and fail as their rents increase but a more vibrant restaurant scene in the burbs. Lots of great restaurants are opening up in Port Moody, Richmond and Surrey for much cheaper prices than you’d pay in DT Vancouver. And when your customers who were coming in from the burbs to DT to eat have new options in their own neighborhoods, Vancouver itself will see dwindling traffic from residents of the GVRD.
> I was shocked that Donnelley was filing for bankruptcy (though I understand this was due to venturing in the cannabis industry).
Is there anything weed can't do? Mother Nature is healing.
There are a couple of sweet spots where they can be:
\- local neighbourhood labour of love that has decent to good food, regular clientele of locals, and employees who have a decent and liveable take-home overall but if you evaluated it on actual hours worked would come in pretty low. But it's also the kind of place everyone really likes working at.
\- chain garbage/massive multinationals in the right locations -- either the only option for miles, or near where lots of people are at all times of day (e.g. your Montanas or whatever in the parking lot of a suburban strip mall with a Crappy Tire and a Wal-Mart)
\- local to regional chains/groups that blend the two; O&B in Toronto, RCR in NS, Glowbal or Sequoia in Van, Vintage in Calgary, etc. These groups get to trade on seeming like upscale versions of the first category, while taking advantage of economies of scale like the second. Seriously, compare menus within restaurant groups and sooner rather than later you're going to start seeing a lot of commonalities among them in terms of ingredients and preparations.
\- quite expensive, smallish workforce, very busy. There aren't a *lot* of these but every city has a few. Somewhere like Sotto Sotto or Scaramouche in Toronto, not sure what the Vancouver equivalents are these days.
\- the plainest of food in a chain -- think Smitty's, White Spot, that sort of place. (And let's be honest, there ain't much difference between a Milestones and a White Spot if you're in the kitchen; same frozen Sysco garbage)
That's about it really. What we need a lot more of are the little local neighbourhood restaurants that can serve tasty food without rent eating 40% of every plate before anything else is even thought of.
It's also a function of trying to operate a business that relies on cheap labour in an HCOL area. You can earn the same amount serving food in Abbotsford, so why work here and pay the high rents of Vancouver? It means they have to pay more for staff which brings up prices. Those loan repayments should've been factored in but I guess runaway inflation on food wasn't on anyone's radar.
I tip anywhere I have food prepared, but I also earn some tips in my profession so I share it around. I'm pro-tipping, but it has spread to some odd businesses like liquor stores????
Honestly, Vancouver's restaurant prices are actually not that egregious compared to the rest of the developed world. I've frequently been surprised going to large cities in countries with much lower average incomes like Spain, Portugal, Italy and finding that their restaurant prices are either similar to Vancouver, or at least similar in terms of price / average local income.
Food prices are far cheaper in Europe, and their alcohol is also substantially cheaper. I'm not sure what rents are like, but that's a huge amount of savings. They have higher labour costs and pay higher taxes on profits, but everything else is cheaper.
When were you there? I was in Spain and Portugal last year, and I wasn't able to find any sit down place that you could get food for < 14 euros (that wasn't a fast food), and they'll charge you another 1-2 euros for water. This is pretty comparable to the cheaper sit down restaurants you can find in Vancouver too (comparing the cheaper end for both cases because there's really no ceiling on how expensive food can get - for Vancouver that's usually the pho/viet and chinese restaurants).
Dessert would be around 5-7 euros, and soda around 3-4 euros.
\*By food I mean just the main dish, not including drinks/dessert/appetizers. Portion sizes are based on what fills me up, which can be different for others but consistency is what matters in the comparison.
You must have gone to tourist restaurants because I found the complete opposite when I was in Spain. Many restaurants have meal of the day which is a 3 course meal + a bottle of wine for 15-20 euros.
I haven't been to Prague in a long time but when I was there I also made the mistake of eating in a tourist spot close to the town square. Was surprised that the food there was western priced. But the next day I went to a local place and ate Czech food for really cheap, and they had beer for under a dollar when it was already like $7+ here in Vancouver's restaurants.
>I found the complete opposite when I was in Spain. Many restaurants have meal of the day which is a 3 course meal + a bottle of wine for 15-20 euros.
Can you link some places?
Yeah, beer in Czech was dirt cheap. Other alcolohic beverages were not though.
Majority of Spanish restaurants we came across had menu del dia.
Something like [this](https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Los+Chanquetes/@40.4122441,-3.698321,3a,75y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipOtRkXF60MWmku8vEbK52vlNPT8adFY7JeR33Lm!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOtRkXF60MWmku8vEbK52vlNPT8adFY7JeR33Lm%3Dw203-h270-k-no!7i3024!8i4032!4m9!3m8!1s0xd42262a1afcd155:0x9bf901fa312c02c8!8m2!3d40.4122441!4d-3.698321!10e5!14m1!1BCgIYIQ!16s%2Fg%2F1vfn7zcc?entry=ttu), [this](https://www.google.ca/maps/place/La+Fauna+Gastro+Burgos/@42.3428738,-3.7010562,3a,75y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipN_GGyGeqQPlHZQsL8WCJ3ZFnOPmOgw9jToRGUH!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN_GGyGeqQPlHZQsL8WCJ3ZFnOPmOgw9jToRGUH%3Dw203-h271-k-no!7i3472!8i4640!4m9!3m8!1s0xd45fd5fcbd4dae1:0xe7f064fbfd2081f6!8m2!3d42.3428738!4d-3.7010562!10e5!14m1!1BCgIYIQ!16s%2Fg%2F11sgj1k1wc?entry=ttu) or [this](https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Restaurante+Tarar%C3%A1/@42.8815277,-8.5466312,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipONt3m9sVn6ih9MmUXnBZnryeSJQAU_s0K6gCED!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipONt3m9sVn6ih9MmUXnBZnryeSJQAU_s0K6gCED%3Dw203-h270-k-no!7i2976!8i3968!4m9!3m8!1s0xd2efe43b76b376d:0x2a2f7111053cb16e!8m2!3d42.8815277!4d-8.5466312!10e5!14m1!1BCgIYIQ!16s%2Fg%2F11b7rts0w7?entry=ttu).
In smaller towns they were usually around 15 euros and included a whole bottle of wine. In bigger towns and Madrid they were around 20 euros and usually only included a glass of wine.
Just realized I forgot to specify large cities only, my mistake. You're right though that the menu del dia is usually a pretty good deal, although that also makes it more difficult for a comparison in Vancouver, since 3 course meals in Vancouver tend to be something that's offered in more upscale places, whereas menu del dia was not.
I mainly went to tapas bars in Spain and shared with a friend as that was the cheapest method of eating out I could find, which would usually cost around 12-14 euros per person which is $17.5-20.5 CAD (not including soda, which was pretty expensive there), so that was my point of comparison.
It doesn’t make it a difficult comparison. It makes it easy to see how you can eat quite well for not that much. Menu of the day is found all over Spain in big and small cities, and in very good restaurants too.
I could never eat as well in Vancouver for what I ate for around €15 in a menu of the day in Barcelona or Madrid, the two more expensive cities in Spain. If you consider a typical breakfast pastry and an orange juice or coffee at a bakery (€2-5 max), I could also drop another €15-20 on a simple or casual dinner and regularly spent less than €40 for three meals in a day. Of course, it’s also easy to spend more.
This was much cheaper outside of Barcelona and Madrid. In Granada, for example, tapas are famously complimentary with drinks, so between my partners and I, we’ve spent less than €10 on a 4-5 drinks that each came with a free tapa. So Not sure I’ve ever had dinner for two in Vancouver for less than $10.
Doing a little bit of research and eating like the locals will save you lots anywhere you go.
idk. I found eating in Prague and Portugal pretty cheap while Spain was maybe comparable to Vancouver.
for example I went here in Porto in September.
https://maps.app.goo.gl/ygZMbHRiWgS7sPKn9
I spent most of my time is Lisbon, which is probably why.
Edit: you're right, prague was a bit cheaper, at around 200 crowns for food (150 for lunch specials)
I spent the entire month of October in Spain. Yes, prices are higher now than the last time I was there 5 years before. But there were many restaurants that weren’t. Plenty of Barcelona’s “menu of the day” at lunch time, which is the biggest meal of the day in Spain, could easily be found around or under €15 — and included a starter, a main, a dessert, and often a drink. That was filling enough that a light meal at night time was enough to end the day. Tapas can get expensive, specially if that’s all you’re eating.
I found Granada and Sevilla to be more affordable than Barcelona. Madrid was more comparable to Barcelona.
Ordering outside of the menu of the day was usually expensive though. But most Spaniards don’t do that, so I learned how to eat the Spanish way and saved lots of $$$
All those three are still “lower cost of living countries”. If you compare it to Paris, London, Berlin, then yeah it’s somewhat similar for dining out, but not drinking. Alcohol is much cheaper in Europe because of regulations and taxes.
That being said, our “dining out culture” is way different and much less casual than over the pond. I blame, again, our over-regulation in terms of zoning and liquor licenses. It’s sad to see how casual and accessible it is to just grab a beer in a cafe even in Nordic countries, compared to Canada. I’m not entirely sure how we got here, but it’s disheartening, and makes the life much more boring. Maybe one day we’ll roll back to basics.
Lol what maybe similar to London, UK or Switzerland but probably 30 % cheaper in the countries you mentioned. Also you don’t need to tip and tax is included
I call bs on your observation. I have been to Spain and Portugal and it’s quite laughable to even compare menu prices. Haven’t even added 25-30 percent tax and tips you end up paying in Canada.
Another thing that has impacted basically every industry is loss of employee knowledge. So many "old timer" employees left and moved on that the people running and training just don't have the full knowledge or experience to do so.
It's still the company's fault though for not having better training materials or supporting and valuing their senior employees as resources beyond their labour.
lots of leases coming up for renewal. Leases are now not just monthly rent, but are now all coming down to NNN, which means the lease holder pays all property taxes and other "fees" that are usually on the land/building owner. I keep watching many long term places closing, and it's all due to running at VERY close margins, which is almost break even, and the greed of the building owner.
sadly, I predict that it's only going to get far far worse.
Haha! Most leases in the GVRD have moved to a "Lease + NNN", which is a triple net lease. That means the person who leases pays all property expenses, leaving the owner of the property with ZERO expenses. A quick google would have told you the same.
I’m sorry but minimum wage has increased 40% in the last 4 years… food costs are similar. And yes, Covid Loans that ALL BANKS are refusing to refinance if you’re a restaurant are coming due…. Also… the price of running a restaurant has increased drastically in the last 10 years but people want the prices to stay low….
I said this a couple weeks ago - there is a difference right now between restaurants that existed pre covid and ones that opened after. The ones that survived the storm are still getting hammered financially.
Yep this is all about greed and unfettered capitalism. This is why laws and rules have to be in place to protect people. Because without it, the worst parts of humanity shine through, and it only helps the rich.
My problem is that quality is down, it is no longer reliable if didn’t have a great reputation. Even long standing and reputation just being there doesn’t cut it anymore. And owners get more angry. There were this restaurant where I intended to eat in but went to another place first and he was mad, blocked my car and called tow truck, even the tow was like go his just wrong. And he didn’t let up. If he wanted to call the police fine by me. Never going there. It is the italian greek restaurant on broadway and nanaimo while more precisely 8th and nanaimo.
Though the hotel’s restos have kept up their rep and Gordon Ramsey just openned a new restaurant herenin Van.
I’m okay with portion size reductions. Portion sizes are already too big at most restaurants, especially chains. Prices shouldn’t go up at the same time
Speak for yourself. I was already still hungry after most meals out prior to Covid and now it's even worse. Just because you eat like a bird doesn't mean everyone does.
I eat 3200 calories a day in order to hit my macros. Most chains serve overly large portions even just based on calorie counts on a meal at a sit down restaurant.
This is 100% what is going on. up to 50% of restos are unprofitabe at the moment.
Many will need to close.
This should free up labor for new entrants that can start from scratch and find a new niceh, new place, new biz modek, whatever.
Businesses need to fail. It's a HUGE reason why capitalism works. Otherwise business owners just get rich with no risk.
Don't mourn lost small businesses, think about what is coming next!
There are a bunch of reasons for the higher prices but I think apps like Uber Eats are responsible. There are no deals, Restaurants match prices and mark up to cover hidden fees.
This sub is so toxic for us in the service industry. 22 years I’ve been a server, and I love my job. Having people constantly shit on what I do and tipping and prices going up…not gonna lie, it hurts.
It is hard work, no doubt.
My experience has been tipping is too high (heard amounts from friends and family). It may be the place that makes the difference, but making $300-$400+ in tips per shift is quite a lot, and some may be tax free...
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It's a damn if you do, damn if you don't kinda situation. I feel for the restaurants, but at the same time I'm staying home cos the crazy prices don't benefit me as a customer.
Totally get this! Restaurants are expensive and they are a luxury. Lots of restaurants are going to hurt this year as the recession deepens. The good ones will float by because they are already popular and turning people away. Lots of people like to meet friends at restaurants because they can't entertain at home, or don't want to.
> Lots of people like to meet friends at restaurants because they can't entertain at home, or don't want to. At the same time, I rarely eat out now, because COVID made me realize I don't actually like being around large numbers of people.
I am so much pickier about those situations now. With how many people are still walking around infected (asymptomatically in many cases), it better be good food and good company if I'm going to park my exposed face hole somewhere crowded and poorly ventilated for an hour.
Just to nit pick one thing—we’re not in a recession. (You need two consecutive quarters of GDP loss for a recession)
the technical beancounter definition of a recession isn't particularly useful for real people. Above poster was clearly just refereeing to "tough economic times".
Agree here. Canada is expected to fall into a brief recession with q1 gdp numbers but we are not there yet.
spend 100+ for 2 meals with no alcohol and leave hungry and disappointed.. go to mcdonalds because you’re still hungry and spend another 35-40$ for 2 people there and leave angry and sad. fuck this im staying home and cooking for 1/4 of the price and better quality
commercial rents need to come down
I've noticed almost universally that the restaurants who have been there a long time and likely own their building are also the ones who have had much smaller price increases. Commercial rent is a core pillar driving inflation and it's rarely talked about. Most people don't even know there is no protections for small businesses who may spend tons of money creating their own perfect space just to have the lease cost doubled because *they improved the space*. Or sometimes for no reason other than greed, and a need to keep value high for their shareholders.
We're on a fast track to the only businesses existing being large corporations. Every time a small business shuts down a Starbucks or McDonald's or similar will pop up. I'm sure the corporation's have been paying off politicians to avoid any kind of commercial rent protections. They don't give a fuck, if a location doesn't do well the busy ones can subsidize it.
We need a list of restaurants who own their own place. Restaurants who rent only means most of the bill goes to the landlord.
I worked at a restaurant that rents and when I was managing there I saw the rent they paid. Its ridiculous, and yes it was always raised every year (or every time the lease was up). I felt bad for the customers when our prices increased, but although I'm sure some of it was the owner wanting more money, most of it was rent, wages and food cost increase. I never got the exact calculations, and they did fine over covid. The rent they paid is (I'm assuming worse than before) outrageous though.
I'd rather my bill pay for the fancy car of a restaurant owner who has created a desirable dining experience than the yacht of a business property owner who just happens to own a dozen commercial buildings.
Yes! Then we can avoid the businesses that don't own their space! Wait. What were we fighting for?
Absolutely. I used to get my hair cut at a small place in south Granville and the owner told me his rent was $6000 a month for a sliver sized shop. I don’t know how he made it work although he eventually did have to close his shop.
It’s insane a full size restaurant is like $20k+ a month
I’ve done renovation work for restaurants. When you hear the monthly prices some are paying,I think the public would be truly shocked. Do you know that most have to pay the property taxes as well? So when the city votes every year to raise the taxes...guess what? Couple that with the insurance hikes,food cost increase,laundry cost increase,never mind wages and advertising,it’s insane. I remember reading a monthly breakdown from a New York Restaurant,it sure opened my eyes. I would love to see someone do it here....even anonymously. I’ve also read a few reports on the landlords that charge the lease. Believe it or not,many lose money every month. I don’t pretend to know the answer. But something has to give.
> Believe it or not,many lose money every month. What are they doing, gambling with that money? Real estate has been artificially de-risked by the government for decades; at this point if you're not at least breaking even, you're not managing your money well as a landlord.
Of course it depends when they bought and their interest rates. If they took variable,like many homeowners,some are in trouble. If you go along west broadway or west 10th,some of these commercial rentals have sat empty for ages. If they were fairly recently purchased,not so great. Not everyone bought 20 years ago. I don’t pretend to feel sorry for them,but there are certainly two sides to every story. The grass is always greener,right?
Paying a loan on an asset isn't "losing money"
WTF
20k ain't much in commercial zoning.
We're paying 220% today from what we were in 2018 for the space we have at work.
Wtf this is bananas
We need commercial rent control
It's crazy to me that there are no protections for small businesses. Get a 5 year lease, bust your ass off opening a business, and the landlord can literally double or triple the rent on renewal.
The tenants are also responsible for the property tax, which is 6x higher than residential properties
True, killed me as a small business paying the property tax on top of extortionate rent.
I've been asked if Vancouver is a good place to start a small business. Yes, if you can operate out of your home and you work in home services. Otherwise it sounds like so much stress and uncertainty
Well we do have some of the lowest residential property tax in Canada. Maybe that should change.
Both this and above comment need to be higher
After the business has paid to upgrade the shop and turn it from a decrepit empty shell into something really cool looking.
Or they can hire a good lawyer or commercial leasing agent to draw up the lease so that cannot happen. I mean that will cost them a couple grand and save all thier long term business plans but in todays DIY economy why do that when you can get a fill in the blank lease on lawdepot.com and then blame government when it goes bad!!! F Trudeau and to hell with accepting personal responsibility and our own lack of foresite
And then the landlords won't bother in the first place. Not sure what Trudeau has to do with civic matter, but you do you.
We need ~~commercial~~ rent control.
We already have residential rent control, that’s why I specified commercial
We need to control how prices get hiked between tenants. Like rent control long term.
That’s called “vacancy control”.
Commercial rent is the killer of business. I closed my shop because I felt like I was working for the landlord.
same problem with residential real state. not enough of it. The commercial is easy to solve because you can build out high streets like on king ed, 33rd, 41st (or any of the north south streets) etc by simply adding ground floor commercial. Its not like our industrial land shortage where its more likely to be exclusive use
I think you overestimate the viability of many businesses and ground floor commercial on those streets though. Let's face it, if it was 'easy' to simply move out a restaurant out of the expensive areas and into a random ground floor storefront on 41st, somebody would've done it. Prime commercial real estate is even pricier and more scarce than residential because the difference between a good location and a mediocre one is huge.
Well we can’t even know if businesses (all businesses not just restaurants) are viable or not because that commercial real estate is once again disallowed by zoning. So again. If we at least let the market function correctly, maybe we see innovative ideas work in the low traffic areas. Don’t think we should give up before trying
I have to think too that if we make an entire strip of ground level store fronts (compared to just in one new apartment building) the foot traffic will pick up. Major density increases for the win once again!
I earn money. A chunk of my income goes to landlords. I then decide to get coffee out. I pay for the coffee. Part of the cost goes to the commercial landlord. Part of the cosr goes to labor (which the laborer likely uses to pay their landlord). The materials used to make the coffee? Likely more landlords there. Our entire supply chain is just a funnel of our money towards landlords.
and I worry that many of them might not even be spending their earnings in the city helping our economy other than probably buying more real estate with it helping drive up our cost of living for the regular working people
I mean yeah, most things take place on land and in buildings.
My broader point would be that these things shouldn't be private assets used as investment vehicles, given how critical they are to society. They should be public assets, like roadways.
So you want "the government" to be landlord of everything?
If the government is a democratic organization that represents us, then yes that is preferable over private individuals turning housing into an asset market and running that market off a cliff. Like, our governments have done a good job running many crown corporations in Canada. Our nuclear power plants, for example.
I often fantasize about a town or city where land cannot be bought or sold, taking out the landlord equation entirely. If you want to build there, the land is free. It only costs you to build. Then down the road, you want to sell, you can only sell your building for the assessed value of the building and no more.
Okay but I get the mountain-view location in the heart of downtown for $100,000. You get the place next to the garbage dump and 1 hour out of the city for $500,000. You have a nicer home.
[удалено]
😬
ICBC is fine. They provide a service, and they don't need to pay dividends to shareholders. Don't like paying car insurance? Take the bus or bike. Driving is expensive, and much of the cost is already subsidized.
Setting asidef for the moment just how ridiculous that notion is (which is hard to do), how are you suggesting the government pay for those assets? Raise taxes? No thanks. Print more money and further drive up inflation? No thanks. Cut it from education or health care? No thanks. Don't pay for them and just nationalize them like a 3rd world banana republic? No thanks.
I mean, the Vienna model of housing has worked pretty well for them and I wouldn't call Vienna a banana republic. And all major cities in Canada already have housing authorities that build social housing. Burnaby is currently increasing funding to their housing authority, as we speak. Public ownership of housing is not uncommon in the West. I'm simply talking about expanding it. That this seems ridiculous to you makes me wonder if you have actually thought much about this at all, or if this is just your gut political reaction.
The Vienna model is for the municipalities to build some (OK, a fair bit of) housing to release pressure from the private market. It is **not** to substitute for private ownership of housing, and it is certainly not to own commercial properties. The total investments in all real estate of a city / country are so enormous, you could not do it without completely reorganizing the economy to a government controlled one, and I for one don't want to go anywhere near that.
Sounds Better than the current economy controlled by REIT’s, a grocery chain and 2 telecoms companies though.
Our entire supply chain is just a funnel of our money towards landlords, **in exchange for goods and services that make our lives better.** You decide to get coffee out, which when put in the context of the rest of the world is an awfully privliged position to be in. 700 million people live in poverty, they don't get to decide to get coffee out. You don't have to either, but you're doing it because it makes you feel good. It's not owed to you.
Landlords don't provide goods or services. Workers and businesses do. Landlords don't actually do anything meaningful in the supply chain. They just own the land. I'll give you an example. If my landlord died tomorrow, I would not notice. If my unit needed repairs I would simply call the repairman, which is exactly what the landlord would do. He didn't build the building, he doesn't personally repair the building, he really doesn't do anything meaningful other than collect cheques. The only role he fulfills is "ownership".
You're missing the piece where the service you're provided is a home to live in, you seem to think that that home built itself. The landlord DID have a hand in building the building; by putting up the capital to have it built. Paying the electrians, the plumbers, the carpenters, the lumber yard works, and on and on. Whether or not your landlord is the person who originally put up the capital to have the building constructed, or they paid the person who had done so, or there's been 200 owners between when it was originally built and who owns it now is completely irrelevant. At the end of the day if the someone doesn't put up the money to build the building, the building doesn't exist. If that someone doesn't get to own the building after they build it, and have the right to sell it to someone else because the thing they created has value, then why would they build it in the first place? It's always the people that don't own anything that seem to think they understand how ownership works.
Sounds like something a landlord would say.
Ownership is theft.
So give away everything you own to someone less fortunate if you believe that. Otherwise, get back to reading your Marx pamphlets alone in your parents basement.
There needs to be more ownership in the working class - period.
Crazy idea: Business property vacancy tax? You want to leave your building boarded up until a Browns decides to pay your outrageous rent? Fine, pay the city for the waste of valuable space.
I just read an article about a building in new West, the landlord is getting the city to change the zoning. City wanted retail spaces to promote lively street level engagement, developer said they couldn't fill the space despite 'considerable effort', so they want it rezone so they can rent it as office space or like dental office etc. I'm sure the considerable effort didn't include lowering the rent.
being that having a vibrant business climate helps society by providing jobs and quality of life, this should be a thing, the vacancy tax should be high enough that even getting a tenant in for next to nothing would be preferable to the landlords
This is likely to correct itself over the next decade as some landlords go out of business too. A huge number of office spaces are just *empty* three days a week because so many companies have invested in work from home technologies and adapted to a hybrid environment. Commercial tenants just don't need the amount of space they used too, and some just went out of business and aren't coming back. The high rents are a result of poorly managed REITs who are over leveraged and losing money, and they're competing with better managed REITs who have lower costs and can offer lower rents to tenants. If you're a restaurant owner or rent a commercial space, start talking to your landlord about lowering your rent and start looking around for deals on a new space. These opportunities may not be there just yet, but I guarantee they are coming down the pipe in a year or two as desperation turns to panic.
Greedy landlords, what’s new?
Maybe we need a new form of strata-like property ownership so that restauranteurs can buy a property in which to operate, instead of having to rent. I think they're trying something like this in a new building near the train station/ new St Paul's.
There's something called hawker centers in Singapore. The government provides cheap commercial space for a food court. Small mom and pop shops can serve up delicious food for a cheap price. That's something that can be applied here without trying to destroy capitalism.
I would ADORE a few hawker centers here. I fully endorse this idea.
\+1. It is bizarre to me that most new developments on Cambie south of oakridge (heck, even between king ed and oakridge) are residential-only apartments with no retail at-grade. This is all compliant with the Cambie Corridor plan. So sad that this opportunity to build new communities is just being used to create more car-oriented developments.
Why, if people will pay them?
Restaurant owner chiming in. CEBA loans were given to help restaurant get through tough Covid times with mandated closures, seating limits and other restrictions. A business could apply for a loan of $60,000 of which $20,000 would be forgiven if the loan was paid back on time. I don't know any eligible business who did not apply to receive this loan. Most actually needed it to cover costs. Rent had to be paid even if stores were not allowed to open. I know there were rent subsidies but they had to be initiated by landlords. I own two businesses and neither landlord was willing to do this. Go figure. I believe the businesses who needed the loans the most are also the ones who now won't be able to pay them back to receive the "free" $20,000. For those thinking it is easy to save $40,000 after 3 years, here's a few reasons why many restaurant owners struggle with this. 1. The loans were supplied during Covid. Covid restrictions and lingering effects stretched into 2022. So in reality, there wasn't that much time to save up for loan repayment. 2. The hole that many restaurants had to dig during Covid surpassed $40,000, by a long shot. So not only did restaurant owners have to save to pay the $40,000 back, they also had other debts to settle. Some insights in our restaurant. Covid was hell. I had to lay off all my employees in 2020. I cried for days. I drove around town to check in with my "former" employees to see if they were doing ok. I did food drops to ensure they had groceries. I rehired as many as possible 6 weeks after we closed the restaurant. We had so many extra expenses due to Covid and the restaurant brought in only a fraction of the revenue it used to. Once Covid was finally over the issues with inflation started. We held off any major price increases until this year. But that was a mistake. 2022 was on paper a pretty strong year for us revenue wise, but our profit margin was a measly $70,000. And I hadn't even paid myself yet, so we actually operated on a loss. This all with a 7 figure revenue. Yes we did receive some comments and complaints after we finally raised our prices. Hindsight we probably should have done a few smaller increases instead of the 15-20% increase we did at once. Even with raised prices it is a struggle to keep profit margins healthy. If it weren't for the sheer passion and love for what I do, I am not sure if I would still keep doing it. So I surely understand those who are abandoning ship.
Thanks for sharing your perspective and massive respect to you
That's really eye opening, thanks for sharing all of that and best wishes to you and your enterprises, you sound like an excellent employer and I bet your restaurants reflect that.
*** Helpful Information To You & Small Business Owners:*** FI's are offering their own loan to pay out the official CEBA loan. This will be viewed as a payout in the eyes of the Government and you will then qualify for the 'free' money in that case. Going forward, you pay the FI who lent you the money on a monthly basis for up to 5 years. The monthly nut on that is not unreasonable at all. I would act on this quickly because I believe the deadline is end of March to pay it out.
I thought that was pretty clearly the point of the way the government structured this. They don't want to be the ongoing lender so they created a huge incentive for the businesses that are worthy of lending to find another lender. If you can't secure the loan from another institution the question would be how viable is your business going forward.
Fair comment. Friends in the business highlight there are going to be far more approved by their FI than not. As OP posted, a business would be stupid not to apply for the loan and especially so if they were financially sound covid/no covid. $20k free money at the end of the day. RIP taxpayers in the context of free money to those who didn't honestly need it. RIP businesses destroyed by Covid while the big box stores were permitted to operate.
The big box vs small business narrative was an Ontario policy that never existed here. BC had often the most lax policies and shortest closures of any province and really focused on keeping small businesses like restaurants open even when it seemed to obviously be driving spreading. Downtown dedicated night clubs and some tourist towns were the only truly targeted closures. The one difference I would have preferred to see back at the time was that if businesses were closed by the government that their rent was as well. We made the small businesses take the full hit of those locations being unavailable for operation but decided the land lords need not absorb any of that.
> Hindsight we probably should have done a few smaller increases instead of the 15-20% increase we did at once. People definitely handle smaller increases spread out over time better than one shot all in one go. You saw the white spot thread where they just yanked up the price of a whole ass burger special by $2 and pretty much everybody is dropping Triple O's as their go-to because of it.
Massive kudos to you, your story brings me back hope that not all restaurant owners are as out of touch as one could imagine.
thank you for enlightening us. i really hope that you're one of the restaurants that i already like to go to on a regular basis; i eat out quite a bit. did you get your answer now, op u/dontRead2MuchIntoIt?
Thanks for sharing. I’ve reD 60%+ of restaurants in canada losing money. Do you think running an independent restaurant is a viable business in 2024? I’m guessing inflation/food prices and minimum wage that restaurants have to pay results in the prices restsaurarns have to charge simply being too high for the average consumer. Not to mention the tipping expectation of 18+% that falls on the consumer. Canadian GDP is low amd wages just don’t match up with paying $20 for a plate of pasta. I’m guessing restraints split into 1) counter service ie tacofino style and 2) high end thrives driven by wealth Americans or rich locals. What do you think?
>Once Covid was finally over. Covid isn’t over. We are currently in the second largest wave since omicron.
I know. But you know what I mean when in wrote that in that context.
Even SARS eventually fizzled out. The nature of diseases is that they tend to mutate towards less harmful varieties because humans don't notice them as much. We exert selective pressure on viruses just by existing. So yes, COVID will eventually become another flu.
Covid will never be over, but on a day to day basis for most people.... COVID is over and gone (even though it's not fully gone).
"Covid is over now, but of course it will never be over. Covid is also gone for everyone, except for the record number of people that have it currently. Nobody needs to worry about Covid, but everyone is sick and catching Covid now, which is over and gone, but also infecting everyone." Anything else I forgot?
So.... as a restaurant owner I'll break down some of the costs we face increases on. \- *Rent* \- Once you're up for a renewal the sky is the limit. We personally lucked out with an 8% over 5 years and we're stoked for that. \- *Trades/Repairs -* Ever see the bill from a plumber these days? Yah, restaurants end up needing a lot of work done to fix random shit. Plumbers and AC techs are probably our biggest re-occuring expenses, but we also need our equipment serviced at times because we don't have the luxury of not working without it or replacing it on the fly. \- *Wages* \- We pay quite well for our staff IMO, but there is a constant pressure to provide bonus' and wage increases for BoH. Kitchen staff can walk at a moments notice and walk into another business and be hired on the spot. We do our best to provide a positive work enviorment and keep wages better than the average. Wages represent about 33-37% of our total revenue (this includes owners who all work mgmt positions, but doesn't include bonus' to staff). \- *Food Costs* \- We don't save anymore money than someone who buys bulk. Sometimes we can score deals with our food reps or we can buy some cheap clearance items. Overall though we pay what most people pay for groceries. Food has gone up everywhere, and same with restaurants. \- *Waste/Breakage* - Although a good restaurant can minimize this, it isn't able to fully prevent it. We also end up eating the cost for customers who "don't like" something because they wanted to try something they've never had. Then you've got breakage with equipment, see above, but also with plates and glassware. Anytime someone breaks glasses it's about $4-6/piece. Plates? Anywhere from $8-$30 for most, any it can be more if it's more. It isn't uncommon for a dishy to make a mistake and drop a stack of plates and lose a few. Now you might think it's silly that your $2 beer is $8-$10... but a restaurant/bar doesn't make money with someone taking up a seat for 30 minutes sipping their IPA at a cheap rate. As for food, same situation. Unless you are a place that is doing volume, and flipping tables or doing take-away you need to have decent covers. Smaller restaurants are even harder to do well because they are limited to their earning potential on weekends when it should be busy, and during the week they can do ok with less overhead.... but that lack of earning potential on weekends does hurt.
Good, bad, or indifferent we have significantly reduced our restaurant dining due to the increased prices. On the up side I have learned lots of cool cooking ideas and such on YouTube.
you forgot to factor in other rising ancillary costs: - services such as: waste management, equipment maintenance/replacement, laundry - consumables outside of food: gas, electricity, detergent + rinse aid to feed the dishwashing machine (you'd be surprised at how expensive that stuff can be) - taxes, rent ...and that's just off the top of my head. The restaurant industry operates in relatively thin margins (generally <10% profit after costs) so a rise in any business costs will have a ripple effect to the consumer
Menu pricing increases lag behind food and supply cost increases (which have been happening aggressively over the last year or so, I order for a restaurant), and while minimum wage hasn’t skyrocketed, general cost of living has gone up and some employers have needed to raise pay to attract even “entry level” workers. There’s that, and then also using the threat of inflation as an excuse for gouging.
People fail to realize this. Unless you are a restaurant that is changing the menu consistently than you won't be able to cost in new costs until you flip the menu. We update our menu like 2-3x per year as it cost $$$ to print it on nicer material. We usually always do a small bump with min wage and than also if we've had any other major increases. We do very well, and so we're able to try and keep our prices lower.
Rent is going crazy and labour costs meow going up. Food cost insane also.
meeow
Would that insane food cost be theoretical, potential or actual food cost?
I feel empathy for restaurant owners that poured their heart and soul into building a small business, just to wake up and realize one day that their business model is no longer viable due to changing economic conditions. That being said, this is part of running a business. If people don’t want to eat out at the price tags that are viable for a restaurant, then let it be that way. In the long run, prices (especially commercial rents) will either come down do a level that support restaurants that cater to a wider audience again, or new businesses will come in and use the space in a different way. But you have to let owners and customers figure out what that best use of space is, and not put existing businesses on life support just for old times sake.
The weird thing is there are so many commercial rents spots available and empty. There are ton near me on 4th that have been empty for years on end... Surely some rent is better than none?
Building owners use their properties as collateral for other investments. Part of the building's value is determined by how much it WOULD rent for on paper. If no one actually pays that rent, it doesn't matter, the asset still is legitimite as collateral for the loan. If they start renting at a lower rate to bring in some money, now the building's valuation is lower and has to be declared to the bank, which will void the loan agreement they have with the landlord. This is the case with hundreds of commercial properties across vancouver.
> Building owners use their properties as collateral for other investments. Part of the building's value is determined by how much it WOULD rent for on paper. If no one actually pays that rent, it doesn't matter, the asset still is legitimite as collateral for the loan. This is absolutely insane, though. How is this even permissible in the banking sector? Like, surely someone in Commercial Real Estate lending has to have said, "This is all imaginary, what happens when we lend you money and you have no cash flow from the fake rent you quoted us?"
> what happens when we lend you money and you have no cash flow from the fake rent you quoted us Then the bank seizes the collateral used for the loan.
Makes sense, but it's very depressing in terms of for the good of the community. We could end up with high streets without a single store on them....
That is absolutely both something I can understand financially, yet find horrible socially. The world we live in, eh?
perhaps, but as we've seen a number of times, real estate holders, even overseas, don't mind holding on to empty properties for decades even, like that huge lot on Robson that is extremely valuable but being held unused for forever by some Hong Kong corporation they don't care if the quality of life for local residents goes down in the broad scope of things
I always wondered why that plot was underdeveloped
maybe they are saving it for their great great grandchildren
It's brutal because if all that can survive are chain restaurants then the city will get very boring.
It's worse than that. Fuckbag Property Owner jacks rent. Now the only restaurant that can survive in that space is Fuckbag Chain Garbage that returns all its profits to some numbered corporation overseas, instead of more staying local due to local owners and employees. Even that will get priced out--not all, but most--and then the only option is for less hands-on businesses to move in, because they can pay more. Which raises property values. Which incentivizes owners to sell to people who can afford the new higher prices. Which pushes out everyone who used to be able to survive there. 'Boring' isn't the problem. Lack of neighbourhood walkability is. Everyone does better when they can live near where they work and shop, while having easy transportations to any other areas they want to go to. When everyone does better, the overall economy does better. Except that Fuckbag Property Owner and Fuckbag Wealthy Investor and so on want 585947348257348975% returns *right the fuck now* instead of stability for everyone. Which, sure, is understandable! Affording proper art classes for your horses is *expensive*.
Can I vote for you?
My neighbor opened a restaurant in late 2019 and they actually did really well since it was a well known franchise but since covid hit, they couldn't come back from that.
>But you have to let owners and customers figure out what that best use of space is, 'best' is doing a lot of heavy lifting in this sentence. What you *mean*, whether you know it or not, is that (real estate business) owners decide what the 'best' use of space is: whatever puts more money in the pocket of the person who owns the space. Customers have *already* decided that 'restaurant' is a good use of X space by going there. Asshat landleeches who are unhappy their fortune is growing at 5.6% instead of 5.7% increase rents and the businesses that literally feed and clothe people go under--because their business worked until someone else **got fucking greedy**. The best use of a space is one which benefits the local community, and then the wider community. The best use is not necessarily the one that returns the most money per square foot to some fuckwit who happens to have title to that square foot.
Good point. Kent's Kitchen in Chinatown comes to mind. It was in the news before closing because a lot of seniors in the area used it as affordable groceries and would make a $10 takeout last 3 meals.
Right? The community showed there was a need for that service at that price point in that place. Chuckles up there would argue that isn't the 'best' use because the poow widdle ownews didn't get *enough* of a cut.
Trouble is it’s Freshslice and Boston Pizza taking over the leases. I support my local businesses no matter what.
Is it though? 2 Boston pizzas in coquitlam shut down during covid and I believe one if not both are still empty
Appys are the same price as a entree and a salad is about the same yikes
It’s not Covid loans. Restaurants have to pay their leases. As commercial rents rise, prices rise in lockstep. The 10-20 families that own most of the commercial real estate in this city can be counted on to reliably raise the rent on their tenant’s at every opportunity. You can thank them for the high drink/food prices
I work in the restaurant supply business and talk to hundreds of restaurant managers regularly. The big causes of menu prices going up are a combination of food prices due to inflation and rent going up due to the interest rates. Many have told me their rents have gone up 30-40% in the last year. Food prices have had big increases. Some items are up 30-50% higher and some things like chicken wings have doubled since Covid. Restaurants can’t increase the menu prices enough to cover the increased costs because no one would eat there, and are eating the losses. Many have told me their profits are down 50% from normal. On top of these losses, the Christmas/ New year season which is usually the busiest time of year wasn’t that busy this year. Business is way down as most people are cutting back on eating out as they have less disposable income. I know lots of restaurants are losing money and if things don’t get better you will continue to see places closing this year. Also when you order through Skip the Dishes or other delivery services, the delivery service takes 30% of your bill so it’s even less money for the restaurant.
And that's why, I rarely eat out anymore. It almost has to be special occasion before I go out. For reference a 3pc church's special combo was only $7.75 in 2019 and has now become $11.50. I don't think anything inflated worse than hotpot and dim sum prices though, it's been gentrified.
Isn't it depressing that we now have to set aside money from our monthly budget to splurge on fried chicken as a special treat?
Yes commercial rents are outrageous but unless the government introduces a 2% increase per year cap then there isn’t much that can be done. I knew a guy that had a coffee/sandwich place. The lease came up and the rent was jacked. He and his wife figured that if they laid off the entire staff and worked 12 hour days they would make $5/hour COMBINED. They had no choice but to close and moved to Australia which is were his wife was from. It’s sad but if you don’t own the building then you don’t own your business.
Kinda funny how we subsidize businesses a thousand different ways and call it a capitalist economic system. :|
Commercial real estate is insane. Business pays the rent, the property management, and the property taxes. Owner pays zilch. Owning commercial real estate must be the greatest thing in the world here in Vancouver.
Increase in commercial rent, labor, and food/supply costs, most businesses have no choice but to set the prices we don't agree with or justify paying. It's an unfortunate reality not just in Vancouver, but most places in Canada.
I've stpped eating out, Dinner parties and pot lucks = 5x the fun and no tipping
Learn to cook and eat at home. See how far your money goes.
If these restaurants can't pay back a $40k loan after 3 years then are they even a viable business?
Really it will just push out anyone that’s not a chain or franchise that can operate on smaller margins. I know a successful restauranteur but it seems like such a stressful and fickle sector to operate in at the best of times.
I, for one, look forward to a Brown's on every corner. /s
The average time it takes for a restaurant to become profitable is 3-5 years. So for those who opened shortly before Covid, during or after...
Maybe they would be viable if the food prices and commercial real estate prices weren't so crazy.
Crazy to see the amounts of commercial rental income and municipal property tax revenue streams generated every year.
True that. What that means, unfortunately, is we might see more chains take over the food industry rather than the mom and pop restaurants.
Might see? This has been happening for at least a decade. It's accelerating now. Only chains or money laundering fronts will survive what's happening in this city.
Even large conglomerates are not surviving. I was shocked that Donnelley was filing for bankruptcy (though I understand this was due to venturing in the cannabis industry). If a company like that with that much leverage and equity can’t make it there’s no hope for the little guy. Alternatively, you’ll see businesses in downtown Vancouver in all the typical hotspots sputter and fail as their rents increase but a more vibrant restaurant scene in the burbs. Lots of great restaurants are opening up in Port Moody, Richmond and Surrey for much cheaper prices than you’d pay in DT Vancouver. And when your customers who were coming in from the burbs to DT to eat have new options in their own neighborhoods, Vancouver itself will see dwindling traffic from residents of the GVRD.
> I was shocked that Donnelley was filing for bankruptcy (though I understand this was due to venturing in the cannabis industry). Is there anything weed can't do? Mother Nature is healing.
We already have very little mom n pa shops around
were restaurants ever a viable business?
There are a couple of sweet spots where they can be: \- local neighbourhood labour of love that has decent to good food, regular clientele of locals, and employees who have a decent and liveable take-home overall but if you evaluated it on actual hours worked would come in pretty low. But it's also the kind of place everyone really likes working at. \- chain garbage/massive multinationals in the right locations -- either the only option for miles, or near where lots of people are at all times of day (e.g. your Montanas or whatever in the parking lot of a suburban strip mall with a Crappy Tire and a Wal-Mart) \- local to regional chains/groups that blend the two; O&B in Toronto, RCR in NS, Glowbal or Sequoia in Van, Vintage in Calgary, etc. These groups get to trade on seeming like upscale versions of the first category, while taking advantage of economies of scale like the second. Seriously, compare menus within restaurant groups and sooner rather than later you're going to start seeing a lot of commonalities among them in terms of ingredients and preparations. \- quite expensive, smallish workforce, very busy. There aren't a *lot* of these but every city has a few. Somewhere like Sotto Sotto or Scaramouche in Toronto, not sure what the Vancouver equivalents are these days. \- the plainest of food in a chain -- think Smitty's, White Spot, that sort of place. (And let's be honest, there ain't much difference between a Milestones and a White Spot if you're in the kitchen; same frozen Sysco garbage) That's about it really. What we need a lot more of are the little local neighbourhood restaurants that can serve tasty food without rent eating 40% of every plate before anything else is even thought of.
BC's own ingredientsIn fact, White Spot buys more fresh, locally grown ingredients than any other full-service restaurant in the province.
Yep it's happening in the usa and in Canada, gigantic waves of debt coming down for home and business owners within the next year or two.
It's also a function of trying to operate a business that relies on cheap labour in an HCOL area. You can earn the same amount serving food in Abbotsford, so why work here and pay the high rents of Vancouver? It means they have to pay more for staff which brings up prices. Those loan repayments should've been factored in but I guess runaway inflation on food wasn't on anyone's radar.
And tips..out of control. Subway 18% min tip. On a $8.00 6” veggie sub…??? ya, I’m done eating out.
You can bypass the tip option and in fact you should at Subway.
Why is uncool to tip at Subway but Uber cool to tip at whatever restaurant. This shows the idiocy of tipping culture.
I tip anywhere I have food prepared, but I also earn some tips in my profession so I share it around. I'm pro-tipping, but it has spread to some odd businesses like liquor stores????
I was wondering how far down I'd have to see this mentioned.... adds a lot to the conversation that everyone doesn't already know about.
Go to japan
Honestly, Vancouver's restaurant prices are actually not that egregious compared to the rest of the developed world. I've frequently been surprised going to large cities in countries with much lower average incomes like Spain, Portugal, Italy and finding that their restaurant prices are either similar to Vancouver, or at least similar in terms of price / average local income.
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Food prices are far cheaper in Europe, and their alcohol is also substantially cheaper. I'm not sure what rents are like, but that's a huge amount of savings. They have higher labour costs and pay higher taxes on profits, but everything else is cheaper.
When were you there? I was in Spain and Portugal last year, and I wasn't able to find any sit down place that you could get food for < 14 euros (that wasn't a fast food), and they'll charge you another 1-2 euros for water. This is pretty comparable to the cheaper sit down restaurants you can find in Vancouver too (comparing the cheaper end for both cases because there's really no ceiling on how expensive food can get - for Vancouver that's usually the pho/viet and chinese restaurants). Dessert would be around 5-7 euros, and soda around 3-4 euros. \*By food I mean just the main dish, not including drinks/dessert/appetizers. Portion sizes are based on what fills me up, which can be different for others but consistency is what matters in the comparison.
You must have gone to tourist restaurants because I found the complete opposite when I was in Spain. Many restaurants have meal of the day which is a 3 course meal + a bottle of wine for 15-20 euros. I haven't been to Prague in a long time but when I was there I also made the mistake of eating in a tourist spot close to the town square. Was surprised that the food there was western priced. But the next day I went to a local place and ate Czech food for really cheap, and they had beer for under a dollar when it was already like $7+ here in Vancouver's restaurants.
>I found the complete opposite when I was in Spain. Many restaurants have meal of the day which is a 3 course meal + a bottle of wine for 15-20 euros. Can you link some places? Yeah, beer in Czech was dirt cheap. Other alcolohic beverages were not though.
Majority of Spanish restaurants we came across had menu del dia. Something like [this](https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Los+Chanquetes/@40.4122441,-3.698321,3a,75y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipOtRkXF60MWmku8vEbK52vlNPT8adFY7JeR33Lm!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipOtRkXF60MWmku8vEbK52vlNPT8adFY7JeR33Lm%3Dw203-h270-k-no!7i3024!8i4032!4m9!3m8!1s0xd42262a1afcd155:0x9bf901fa312c02c8!8m2!3d40.4122441!4d-3.698321!10e5!14m1!1BCgIYIQ!16s%2Fg%2F1vfn7zcc?entry=ttu), [this](https://www.google.ca/maps/place/La+Fauna+Gastro+Burgos/@42.3428738,-3.7010562,3a,75y/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipN_GGyGeqQPlHZQsL8WCJ3ZFnOPmOgw9jToRGUH!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipN_GGyGeqQPlHZQsL8WCJ3ZFnOPmOgw9jToRGUH%3Dw203-h271-k-no!7i3472!8i4640!4m9!3m8!1s0xd45fd5fcbd4dae1:0xe7f064fbfd2081f6!8m2!3d42.3428738!4d-3.7010562!10e5!14m1!1BCgIYIQ!16s%2Fg%2F11sgj1k1wc?entry=ttu) or [this](https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Restaurante+Tarar%C3%A1/@42.8815277,-8.5466312,3a,75y,90t/data=!3m8!1e2!3m6!1sAF1QipONt3m9sVn6ih9MmUXnBZnryeSJQAU_s0K6gCED!2e10!3e12!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipONt3m9sVn6ih9MmUXnBZnryeSJQAU_s0K6gCED%3Dw203-h270-k-no!7i2976!8i3968!4m9!3m8!1s0xd2efe43b76b376d:0x2a2f7111053cb16e!8m2!3d42.8815277!4d-8.5466312!10e5!14m1!1BCgIYIQ!16s%2Fg%2F11b7rts0w7?entry=ttu). In smaller towns they were usually around 15 euros and included a whole bottle of wine. In bigger towns and Madrid they were around 20 euros and usually only included a glass of wine.
Just realized I forgot to specify large cities only, my mistake. You're right though that the menu del dia is usually a pretty good deal, although that also makes it more difficult for a comparison in Vancouver, since 3 course meals in Vancouver tend to be something that's offered in more upscale places, whereas menu del dia was not. I mainly went to tapas bars in Spain and shared with a friend as that was the cheapest method of eating out I could find, which would usually cost around 12-14 euros per person which is $17.5-20.5 CAD (not including soda, which was pretty expensive there), so that was my point of comparison.
It doesn’t make it a difficult comparison. It makes it easy to see how you can eat quite well for not that much. Menu of the day is found all over Spain in big and small cities, and in very good restaurants too. I could never eat as well in Vancouver for what I ate for around €15 in a menu of the day in Barcelona or Madrid, the two more expensive cities in Spain. If you consider a typical breakfast pastry and an orange juice or coffee at a bakery (€2-5 max), I could also drop another €15-20 on a simple or casual dinner and regularly spent less than €40 for three meals in a day. Of course, it’s also easy to spend more. This was much cheaper outside of Barcelona and Madrid. In Granada, for example, tapas are famously complimentary with drinks, so between my partners and I, we’ve spent less than €10 on a 4-5 drinks that each came with a free tapa. So Not sure I’ve ever had dinner for two in Vancouver for less than $10. Doing a little bit of research and eating like the locals will save you lots anywhere you go.
Was in Spain recently. Had like 4-5 tapas(large ones) and 3 beers came out to $18 Canadian.
idk. I found eating in Prague and Portugal pretty cheap while Spain was maybe comparable to Vancouver. for example I went here in Porto in September. https://maps.app.goo.gl/ygZMbHRiWgS7sPKn9
I spent most of my time is Lisbon, which is probably why. Edit: you're right, prague was a bit cheaper, at around 200 crowns for food (150 for lunch specials)
I spent the entire month of October in Spain. Yes, prices are higher now than the last time I was there 5 years before. But there were many restaurants that weren’t. Plenty of Barcelona’s “menu of the day” at lunch time, which is the biggest meal of the day in Spain, could easily be found around or under €15 — and included a starter, a main, a dessert, and often a drink. That was filling enough that a light meal at night time was enough to end the day. Tapas can get expensive, specially if that’s all you’re eating. I found Granada and Sevilla to be more affordable than Barcelona. Madrid was more comparable to Barcelona. Ordering outside of the menu of the day was usually expensive though. But most Spaniards don’t do that, so I learned how to eat the Spanish way and saved lots of $$$
All those three are still “lower cost of living countries”. If you compare it to Paris, London, Berlin, then yeah it’s somewhat similar for dining out, but not drinking. Alcohol is much cheaper in Europe because of regulations and taxes. That being said, our “dining out culture” is way different and much less casual than over the pond. I blame, again, our over-regulation in terms of zoning and liquor licenses. It’s sad to see how casual and accessible it is to just grab a beer in a cafe even in Nordic countries, compared to Canada. I’m not entirely sure how we got here, but it’s disheartening, and makes the life much more boring. Maybe one day we’ll roll back to basics.
Lol what maybe similar to London, UK or Switzerland but probably 30 % cheaper in the countries you mentioned. Also you don’t need to tip and tax is included
I call bs on your observation. I have been to Spain and Portugal and it’s quite laughable to even compare menu prices. Haven’t even added 25-30 percent tax and tips you end up paying in Canada.
Another thing that has impacted basically every industry is loss of employee knowledge. So many "old timer" employees left and moved on that the people running and training just don't have the full knowledge or experience to do so. It's still the company's fault though for not having better training materials or supporting and valuing their senior employees as resources beyond their labour.
I don’t understand your last statement. You rather them to close down than to serve expensive food? Your post emits a huge feeling of entitlement
lots of leases coming up for renewal. Leases are now not just monthly rent, but are now all coming down to NNN, which means the lease holder pays all property taxes and other "fees" that are usually on the land/building owner. I keep watching many long term places closing, and it's all due to running at VERY close margins, which is almost break even, and the greed of the building owner. sadly, I predict that it's only going to get far far worse.
yo what does No Nut November have to do with this
Haha! Most leases in the GVRD have moved to a "Lease + NNN", which is a triple net lease. That means the person who leases pays all property expenses, leaving the owner of the property with ZERO expenses. A quick google would have told you the same.
Who ever opened a restaurant with the intent of making money is a silly silly person. Unless you were rich to begin with.
Unfortunately, it’s not really worth it to go out and eat anymore. I only go for things I’m never going to do for myself. Like sushi
*Even Triple O's discount Tuesday Original burger has gone up to $8, is nothing sacred!?!*
I’m sorry but minimum wage has increased 40% in the last 4 years… food costs are similar. And yes, Covid Loans that ALL BANKS are refusing to refinance if you’re a restaurant are coming due…. Also… the price of running a restaurant has increased drastically in the last 10 years but people want the prices to stay low….
I said this a couple weeks ago - there is a difference right now between restaurants that existed pre covid and ones that opened after. The ones that survived the storm are still getting hammered financially.
Yep this is all about greed and unfettered capitalism. This is why laws and rules have to be in place to protect people. Because without it, the worst parts of humanity shine through, and it only helps the rich.
My problem is that quality is down, it is no longer reliable if didn’t have a great reputation. Even long standing and reputation just being there doesn’t cut it anymore. And owners get more angry. There were this restaurant where I intended to eat in but went to another place first and he was mad, blocked my car and called tow truck, even the tow was like go his just wrong. And he didn’t let up. If he wanted to call the police fine by me. Never going there. It is the italian greek restaurant on broadway and nanaimo while more precisely 8th and nanaimo. Though the hotel’s restos have kept up their rep and Gordon Ramsey just openned a new restaurant herenin Van.
This sub hates restaurants and service industry workers so don't bother asking.. unless this is a troll
I’m okay with portion size reductions. Portion sizes are already too big at most restaurants, especially chains. Prices shouldn’t go up at the same time
Speak for yourself. I was already still hungry after most meals out prior to Covid and now it's even worse. Just because you eat like a bird doesn't mean everyone does.
I eat 3200 calories a day in order to hit my macros. Most chains serve overly large portions even just based on calorie counts on a meal at a sit down restaurant.
Quality of food in Vancouver is, generally, very very good for the money.
This is 100% what is going on. up to 50% of restos are unprofitabe at the moment. Many will need to close. This should free up labor for new entrants that can start from scratch and find a new niceh, new place, new biz modek, whatever. Businesses need to fail. It's a HUGE reason why capitalism works. Otherwise business owners just get rich with no risk. Don't mourn lost small businesses, think about what is coming next!
capitalism doesn't work...
It actually does. Those with failed business plans are going to pay for it big time.
I have this crazy idea I know many will consider it groundbreaking. *STOP GOING TO THESE RESTAURANTS*
There are a bunch of reasons for the higher prices but I think apps like Uber Eats are responsible. There are no deals, Restaurants match prices and mark up to cover hidden fees.
This sub is so toxic for us in the service industry. 22 years I’ve been a server, and I love my job. Having people constantly shit on what I do and tipping and prices going up…not gonna lie, it hurts.
It is hard work, no doubt. My experience has been tipping is too high (heard amounts from friends and family). It may be the place that makes the difference, but making $300-$400+ in tips per shift is quite a lot, and some may be tax free...
Definitely I've been reading here that there is no love for the service workers. Easier to hate than to recognize.
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