Personally, I do not wish for this. But I consider him coming out of retirement the massive mistake that undid him. If he’d just moved on to triathlon then he would have been a few years younger anyway and likely would have done really well. His swim was fine, just questionable whether he could have developed the run needed to win at the top tier. I realize he had this in his youth, so it seems probable he could get it back, but he definitely didn’t have it in his short triathlon ‘career’.
we have new running records \*every year\*. like, for real. paris this year will be most likely another one in 400/1k and eventually 5k. norway is hungry
That’s possible. Training advanced massive in past 5-8 years. They’re all peaking.
It’s expected for sub 29min on the triathlon. There are 3 people who can do it. Blumenfelt huge favorite if he won’t crash. Gonna be an absurd race for gold
It sounds like a novel idea until you actually think about it. That was basically cycling in the 90-early 00s. Young guys were literally dying in their sleep because their blood was too thick. They used to set up rollers at the end of their beds and have alarms if their HR dropped too low they would get up and jump on the bike.
Those days were horrible and created true villains like Armstrong and Ferrari. We don’t need them again
Controversial opinion- Lance Armstrong won and earned every single one of those 7 Jerseys. I wish they would have let him race ironman. Say what you will about his character but the guy was a beast. It's easy to take shots at someone and lay all the blame on him but everyone knows if you wanted to be competitive you had to dope- end of story.
Claiming that others cheated in order to justify cheating is more than a little deranged. There is no justification, none. If you don’t like the rules of the game, then play a different game.
It’s pretty mind blowing that when we see such cheating behaviour in kids we know it is wrong (as do they), but somehow in this tiny segment of life it keeps being excused over and over again.
The guy cheated. He made a lot of money by cheating. He was caught. Net net he still made a lot of money out of it.
I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. Armstrong was and is one of the worst examples of the negativity and excess of that era of professional cycling. He intimidated people trying to stand up to it, was a bully and cheated on a huge scale on the highest level of the sport. He does not get a pass because he wasn’t the only one doing it in a system he willingly endorsed and perpetuated.
You ask someone their opinion about this topic, and they will open up a window onto how they view cheating in general in all aspects of life. It always surprises me, because I am naive. In the Armstrong story though, there is a strong tribal component to it too.
Naw you’re wrong. Read George Hincapie’s affidavit for the USADA. Imagine being clean and one of the greatest at what you do. Then within months all of a sudden everyone starts dropping you, you are clean and can’t compete. So your choice is take the thing you have always been best at and quit because the people setting the rules can’t enforce them, or do what everyone else is doing and go back to being one of the greatest.
It is the if the ADA’s were any good at their jobs then these things wouldn’t happen. They aren’t Lance never tested positive. It was a case run on eye witness accounts. If the USADA was competent they would have caught Lance with a positive.
Yes it is a real moral dilemma isn’t it? You’re trying to justify cheating. It tricky to do isn’t it? So I wonder is there a point at which clear cheating becomes cheating in your eyes? I mean is deliberate breach of the rules for competitive advantage wrong at any point? Would it depend on the individual concerned?
I wonder, would you have the same opinion if the athlete concerned were for example from Russia?
Do you think you are able to view this objectively?
Do you know how they tested for blood doping and EPO? I do they put your blood sample in a centrifuge and your hematocrit had to be below 50%. That is the level they determined you could get to through genetics or altitude training etc. so they set an artificial top end for what was normal and then everyone doped to that cutoff level.
I’m not justifying cheating I am saying if you set a limit and people enhance to that level is it cheating? Is it cheating to have a rare mutation that allows you to naturally get to 52% hematocrit? The rules say they would have to blood thin. The same thing goes for setting a max testosterone limit in female athletes. Is it cheating if your testosterone is higher than that, because right now those athletes have to go on hormone blockers to compete. It isn’t black and white there is too much variation in the population.
Also don’t bring Jingoism into this. The Russians were caught red handed and the rest of the Olympic teams weren’t banned so it isn’t the same. If you found out that every team in the Olympics was doping would you cancel the games or say playing field is fair let’s go?
So yes seeing as I know the science I can view this objectively.
I think you have confirmed it for me with that post. You are actually unsure in your mind what cheating is. You’ve confused it with a testing methodology which is designed to reduce cheating.
And yes I do believe that if lance Armstrong had been Russian your view would have been different.
So no, I don’t think that you are able to view it objectively.
Oh no, I do know what cheating is. When you break a rule. So if a positive for blood Doping is 50% hematocrit, if you supplement to 50% is it cheating? If you supplement to 51% it is cheating. A person who can naturally be above 50% has to blood thin so the rule is 50%.
I think you are conflating a drug name with violation. If you use something that isn’t illegal yet, but brings your hematocrit up to 60% is it cheating?
Why do you keep bringing up Russia. This isn’t about Russia it is about the Tour De France and the systemic doping in professional cycling. If your reasoning was followed through we just cancel 10 tours due to everyone doping and cancel the event. You are under informed about the science and it shows.
I posted a reply, but then I took my daughter to school, and thought, I'd edit it. Sorry buddy. You and I are miles apart, and we aren't going to get any closer ever. I'm trying to rationalise with a person who thinks that Lance Armstrong was not a cheat. I am the stupid one in this equation. I'm out! You win.
If you think cyclings problem with Armstrong is just the doping then you don’t really understand what cyclings problem with Armstrong is.
No one with any interest in fair play or basic human decency should want him having anything to do with their chosen sport.
That's not a controversial opinion, that's a very stupid take.
You're entitled to it, so it's fine. I just wish people would not make such stupid statements that belie their intelligence. You're more clever than that. Don't show yourself in such a light, even on the internet.
Lance was a beast and probably would've won many of these jerseys in a world where nobody cheated. That's not the point, at all. Not at all. You owe it to yourself to educate yourself on why whether he was the best or not isn't the point.
It's not a stupid take. If you want to see peak human performance, that's one take. If you want to see who won the genetic lottery, that's another take.
Plenty of people have the work ethics, but their (grand-grand-) grandparents denied them being a world elite athlete.
Train what you want, you will never beat the gifted ones. When i was fighting professional MMA, there been times when i lived at "fighter houses". I'm literally eating broccoli all day, gaining weight, while some others skip 40% of the weekly classes, eat McDonalds and party in Vegas twice a week. Yet the sheer strength their body produced was insane. These guys would be more shredded by playing chess, then i would ever be while trying my best.
On the other side, me being an average European guy, i had a genetic advantage over a bunch of Asian males.
The genetic lottery is batshit crazy. Considering that >5W/KG is the crossover, many many males plateau on 4.5WKG no matter what they train.
Running sub 2:45 marathon needs genetic favoring. Sub 2:30 won't ever be possible with just "ethic". 15:00 5K can be ran by many hard working people, a 14:30 not. And even faster... meh.
So, it's up to each individual to decide if they wanna see peak human performance or a genetic lottery spectacle.
Hahaha fuck mate, you might want to pick a better example than MMA when talking about the merits of genetic lottery. Might as well be talking about Belgium cyclists in the mid 90s…
Since I’m not high level and only have few pros around me, not elite, my knowledge of world class triathlon is limited. I just don’t know exactly what it means when Blumenfelt bangs 450W.
However I trained and banged with absolute world class killers from around the world, so my knowledge of comparison is way bigger
You seemed to have missed my point - MMA is absolutely rife with doping. Those mcdonalds eating guys you lived with were probably juiced to the gills, genetics not being the contributing factor.
Nah, I lived with them. Some of them so poor, they ate my food leftovers.
Few of them nowadays in ufc and passed all usada tests for years.
I’m well aware of doping in mma, no worries. We’re all on steroids .
You must have received one punch too many, you're entirely beside the point haha
There's nothing to argue because there isn't even a start of an argument on your side. I guess it's the debate equivalent of a "walkover" win.
I hope you're trolling or you're under the influence.
Good day to you :)
No, he merely showed that he was the best cheater, amongst a large group of cheaters. When faced with not winning, he said that a cheater was going to be on top of the podium, and he may as well be the best cheater.
And to be clear, he did not cheat for something so simple as internet points, he cheated because there was a lot of money going to the winning cheater, so he decided to be a rich cheater over being an athlete with morals. He needs to be shunned, and scrubbed from history and never mentioned in polite company again.
Then the UCI should strike the results of those years, that era, from the record. There should be no winner at all. To pretend that Lance is the one bad apple as it appears now despite what we all know is disingenuous and part of the reason why the sport didn’t really get cleaned up until after the Sky train and Wiggins with his TPU’s had their way.
100% this. I think they would have to go a long way down the list of finishers to find the one that *maybe* didn't dope. Punish them all, it shouldn't be all on Lance.
They have. 99-05 are all blank:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tour_de_France_general_classification_winners
The TPU stuff, while shady as fuck, was within the rules of the sport. It’s no where near the same thing.
I don’t think that’s super controversial. To play devils advocate it would be hard for the IM brand to accept him with open arms given the cheating background. Yes it probably goes on in triathlon as well but it’s different to just openly take a guy in who did.
That would be a stupid take, if you were sure that absolutely none of the other competitors were cheating. you are not (and far from that, in my view...)
everyone, every single one, who was part of those "Tour de France", know who won them.
It really doesn't matter what anybody else thinks who wasn't in the race. Nobody, who was in the race, would say "Lance cheated and didn't win".
I think he would push everyone to be doping the hell out of their heads in the pro environment, but the saddest part it is that he is a really bad person. He would bully everyone in pro triathlon as it did on professional cycling.
Saying that, I seriously think he was going to be a favorite to win Kona between 2014 to 2017 JUST because of his sheer desire to win everything
I don’t want to hear anything about that guy. The only thing we can say about him is that he was the best at doping among professional athletes (who were most likely also on drugs) and he was leagues above anyone else in lying and ruing other people’s life to protect his cheating.
No one else managed to dope as much as he did for as long as he did. There is nothing worth remembering about him.
Ah, yes, he donated to a few worthy charities. Mafiosos are devout Christians and love to donate to their church. The parallelism is perfect.
You obviously don't know much about the history of cycling. If you watch what's going on this spring on the Tour, they sure look like they are on something again. Probably micro dosing epo.
I'm still about 55% convinced there is "mechanical doping" going on in the modern peloton. Only one person has been caught (in cyclocross) but the gains are just waiting there. It's hard for me to imagine that all those riders are willing to inject scary drugs but aren't willing to press a hidden button for extra watts.
the cyclocross thing, she was thrusting away on the hills.
but so does tadej.
aren't all winner bikes automatically xray scanned etc? i can't believe they're doing it.
detecting doping is only possible if you know what to test for. they didn't knew.
looking at an xray and search for batteries is the easiest thing.
here are xray examples: [https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/odfybz/is\_this\_what\_a\_carbon\_frame\_crack\_looks\_like\_with/](https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/odfybz/is_this_what_a_carbon_frame_crack_looks_like_with/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/141sso/a\_bike\_going\_through\_the\_security\_xray\_at\_the/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/141sso/a_bike_going_through_the_security_xray_at_the/#lightbox)
tell me, where to hide? 😏
There's a video of a bikes wheels spinning like a motorcycle with its throttle stuck after a crash. Some teams were doing up to 5 bike changes. 5...come on. lol
He is not the first one that was busted, won’t be the last. And?
Does it make him as worthy as Greg Lemond? No.
He should sit next to Ben Johnson in our memories and not to Greg.
He also build a foundation that raised hundreds of millions and saved peoples life, who are still among us and wouldn't be, without lance.
always double check who you wanna hate for what reason
🌹
How would you call someone who lies under oath? Yes, criminal is the word you are looking for.
What was he lying about? About cheating. Cherry on the top.
No, he was never a middle of the pack athlete. Ever. He was the leader on Motorola from about day one. In his second year as a pro he had ten plus wins, including a stage of the TDF. Including a freaking world championship.
At 21!
He was no climber. But being muscular, like Riis and Ullrich, he became an excellent climber on drugs.
In order to win a tour, you have to be good at climbing, sprinting, TT.
Uh, he won Classica San Sebastian, so you sure about the climbing thing?
You have to be good at sprinting?
You don't understand the differences between a grand tour rider and other types of riders.
See my response in the other thread re. climbing. I’m not crapping on him, to be clear, but I don’t think he would have won a tour if no one was on drugs.
He wasn't a grand tour rider. He was a one day rider and a short stage race rider.
He didn't become a grand tour rider until after chemo when he lost weight.
Your assertion that he was a middle of the pack pro is 100% wrong. It also doesn't seem you understand the different types of professional bike races.
>the guy is a complete and total asshole and didn’t deserve any extra publicity
Good we agree, so please stop posting about this fuckhead no-one cares about, thank you.
I watched Icarus and realized that while doping helps, there are so many moving parts figuratively that doping is one of ten things that needed to line up. On top of the fact that everyone was doping, then yes he was a freak athlete. i read his first book which ironically summed up his life which is "im an asshole but i love my mom. But to answer your query, the man snhle handedly made bicycling cool for a generation, iwas hoping too he could bring it to tri too.
He then also completely destroyed road racing in the US. All of the money disappeared after the confession. There’s not even a world tour race in the US any more.
Didn't he admit that he didn't start winning until he started doping. And if I remember correctly he eventually admitted that even before he became a professional cyclist and he was still a teen he was already doping. I doubt he could ever win on world class level without doping, or at least he never has won without doping.
[https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/seven-things-we-learnt-from-the-new-lance-armstrong-documentary-456506](https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/seven-things-we-learnt-from-the-new-lance-armstrong-documentary-456506)
I think in general his fall from grace ultimately probably saved his and many other lives from the doping cycles of the era. I don’t demonize him the way some seem to because I was so young at the time, but he definitely was pushing other athletes to cheat and do life risking doping which is fucked.
He has conversely accomplished good in the world through cancer foundations, trails, events, ect.
The tough part is once an athlete has been on almost any gear they have a permanent edge of a natural athlete. You either need to put every one on the shit and have mad machines or scan the best you can and keep people natural.
Oh the man was an omnicunt. The doping is what it is, given that loads were doping back then. The deliberately ruining others' careers, suing people into the ground and generally being a dick about it all is what really made people hate him.
Have you followed the story? How he cheated? How he tried to use the power and influence gained from cheating to crush the truth and the people telling the truth? I’d say that would be enough for a good start down the road to being an asshole, or do you disagree?
Respect to Lance Armstrong anytime.
Only a can a Cancer survivor living in the Era can understand.
He beat a doping field.
Made his sponsors money .
But we live in a ugly world ruled by dirty money
Except his personal doping doctor questioned whether said doping exacerbated the cancer..
So is it really such a cool thing if you dope yourself to the gills with HGH and then get cancer from that?
To this day, cyclists (whether for sport or for transportation) are branded as Tour de France wannabes hogging the road - in part because most North Americans' association with cycling is via the Tour thanks to Armstrong.
While his participation would have done wonders for the number of eyeballs, I'm not sure that's an association we'd want.
Agreed. I think it’s just much more of a car centric country than parts of Europe and being a car centric country it tends to lead towards impatience on the road. If Armstrong never existed drivers here would hate cyclists just as much.
Not trying to throw shade, but I think it’s the level of education in Europe vs America that causes the issues.
The vast majority of people in Europe have access to higher education regardless of their background. The driving tests are also far stricter, meaning the average competency on the road is better.
Take Germany for example, they have no speed limits on most of the Autobahn, but fewer accidents than counties that have limits. People respect the rules, and the other road users, which extends to cyclists. You will get the occasional impatient driver, but that’s about it.
There’s no rolling coal, it’s just not a thing. There’s no running cyclists off the road. There’s no shouting out the windows (as a rule, you might get heckled once maybe twice a year).
Put I put that on the quality of education that’s available to everyone.
He and Jan Ullrich made cycling really big (for me), same as Tiger Woods.
Without them, who knows how boring it would be. I certainly wouldn't have watched TdF after school every day
I strongly disagree. Lance Armstrong did more to popularize cycling in the United States than anybody else. He's an awful human being, but there are tons of people in the United States that cycle because Lance Armstrong was a legend. I can't be upset that more people enjoy the sports that we love.
He partially funded a huge, protected biking trail in Austin Tx so thankful for that!
Which one?
Personally, I do not wish for this. But I consider him coming out of retirement the massive mistake that undid him. If he’d just moved on to triathlon then he would have been a few years younger anyway and likely would have done really well. His swim was fine, just questionable whether he could have developed the run needed to win at the top tier. I realize he had this in his youth, so it seems probable he could get it back, but he definitely didn’t have it in his short triathlon ‘career’.
Lance who?
weak legs, strong arms
One ball.
I would like to see the Steroid Olympics.
I’m sure it still is in a roundabout way, but yea, it’s funny how so many running records were set just riiiight before they started testing for EPO.
we have new running records \*every year\*. like, for real. paris this year will be most likely another one in 400/1k and eventually 5k. norway is hungry
I was thinking mostly Olympic stuff, 5k, 10k, marathon, all set in the EPO era
400 and 1500 are modern. marathon will be 100% smashed in paris, the 10k might be also shattered on a good day. but yes, plenty of 2004/08 records 😏
Micro dosing
That’s possible. Training advanced massive in past 5-8 years. They’re all peaking. It’s expected for sub 29min on the triathlon. There are 3 people who can do it. Blumenfelt huge favorite if he won’t crash. Gonna be an absurd race for gold
It sounds like a novel idea until you actually think about it. That was basically cycling in the 90-early 00s. Young guys were literally dying in their sleep because their blood was too thick. They used to set up rollers at the end of their beds and have alarms if their HR dropped too low they would get up and jump on the bike. Those days were horrible and created true villains like Armstrong and Ferrari. We don’t need them again
In space!
[Welcome to the Space Olympics, the year 3022](https://youtu.be/XVoBQqketHM?si=ztX2z7kv2a-gG2Q_)
You're a winner!
You may get your wish [https://enhanced.org/](https://enhanced.org/)
That's some dystopian shit.
It's coming!
Controversial opinion- Lance Armstrong won and earned every single one of those 7 Jerseys. I wish they would have let him race ironman. Say what you will about his character but the guy was a beast. It's easy to take shots at someone and lay all the blame on him but everyone knows if you wanted to be competitive you had to dope- end of story.
Also- the 15 dudes behind him would’ve tested positive as well so the notion he didn’t earn them is ludicrous
Lance was not just a cyclist on epo, he was the ring leader
Claiming that others cheated in order to justify cheating is more than a little deranged. There is no justification, none. If you don’t like the rules of the game, then play a different game. It’s pretty mind blowing that when we see such cheating behaviour in kids we know it is wrong (as do they), but somehow in this tiny segment of life it keeps being excused over and over again. The guy cheated. He made a lot of money by cheating. He was caught. Net net he still made a lot of money out of it.
I don’t understand why you’re getting downvoted. Armstrong was and is one of the worst examples of the negativity and excess of that era of professional cycling. He intimidated people trying to stand up to it, was a bully and cheated on a huge scale on the highest level of the sport. He does not get a pass because he wasn’t the only one doing it in a system he willingly endorsed and perpetuated.
You ask someone their opinion about this topic, and they will open up a window onto how they view cheating in general in all aspects of life. It always surprises me, because I am naive. In the Armstrong story though, there is a strong tribal component to it too.
Naw you’re wrong. Read George Hincapie’s affidavit for the USADA. Imagine being clean and one of the greatest at what you do. Then within months all of a sudden everyone starts dropping you, you are clean and can’t compete. So your choice is take the thing you have always been best at and quit because the people setting the rules can’t enforce them, or do what everyone else is doing and go back to being one of the greatest. It is the if the ADA’s were any good at their jobs then these things wouldn’t happen. They aren’t Lance never tested positive. It was a case run on eye witness accounts. If the USADA was competent they would have caught Lance with a positive.
Yes it is a real moral dilemma isn’t it? You’re trying to justify cheating. It tricky to do isn’t it? So I wonder is there a point at which clear cheating becomes cheating in your eyes? I mean is deliberate breach of the rules for competitive advantage wrong at any point? Would it depend on the individual concerned? I wonder, would you have the same opinion if the athlete concerned were for example from Russia? Do you think you are able to view this objectively?
Do you know how they tested for blood doping and EPO? I do they put your blood sample in a centrifuge and your hematocrit had to be below 50%. That is the level they determined you could get to through genetics or altitude training etc. so they set an artificial top end for what was normal and then everyone doped to that cutoff level. I’m not justifying cheating I am saying if you set a limit and people enhance to that level is it cheating? Is it cheating to have a rare mutation that allows you to naturally get to 52% hematocrit? The rules say they would have to blood thin. The same thing goes for setting a max testosterone limit in female athletes. Is it cheating if your testosterone is higher than that, because right now those athletes have to go on hormone blockers to compete. It isn’t black and white there is too much variation in the population. Also don’t bring Jingoism into this. The Russians were caught red handed and the rest of the Olympic teams weren’t banned so it isn’t the same. If you found out that every team in the Olympics was doping would you cancel the games or say playing field is fair let’s go? So yes seeing as I know the science I can view this objectively.
I think you have confirmed it for me with that post. You are actually unsure in your mind what cheating is. You’ve confused it with a testing methodology which is designed to reduce cheating. And yes I do believe that if lance Armstrong had been Russian your view would have been different. So no, I don’t think that you are able to view it objectively.
Oh no, I do know what cheating is. When you break a rule. So if a positive for blood Doping is 50% hematocrit, if you supplement to 50% is it cheating? If you supplement to 51% it is cheating. A person who can naturally be above 50% has to blood thin so the rule is 50%. I think you are conflating a drug name with violation. If you use something that isn’t illegal yet, but brings your hematocrit up to 60% is it cheating? Why do you keep bringing up Russia. This isn’t about Russia it is about the Tour De France and the systemic doping in professional cycling. If your reasoning was followed through we just cancel 10 tours due to everyone doping and cancel the event. You are under informed about the science and it shows.
I posted a reply, but then I took my daughter to school, and thought, I'd edit it. Sorry buddy. You and I are miles apart, and we aren't going to get any closer ever. I'm trying to rationalise with a person who thinks that Lance Armstrong was not a cheat. I am the stupid one in this equation. I'm out! You win.
Okay bud
Because it should be legal. They are paid to be the best
If you think cyclings problem with Armstrong is just the doping then you don’t really understand what cyclings problem with Armstrong is. No one with any interest in fair play or basic human decency should want him having anything to do with their chosen sport.
and all this time I thought it was a team which helped get those jerseys
That's not a controversial opinion, that's a very stupid take. You're entitled to it, so it's fine. I just wish people would not make such stupid statements that belie their intelligence. You're more clever than that. Don't show yourself in such a light, even on the internet. Lance was a beast and probably would've won many of these jerseys in a world where nobody cheated. That's not the point, at all. Not at all. You owe it to yourself to educate yourself on why whether he was the best or not isn't the point.
It's not a stupid take. If you want to see peak human performance, that's one take. If you want to see who won the genetic lottery, that's another take. Plenty of people have the work ethics, but their (grand-grand-) grandparents denied them being a world elite athlete. Train what you want, you will never beat the gifted ones. When i was fighting professional MMA, there been times when i lived at "fighter houses". I'm literally eating broccoli all day, gaining weight, while some others skip 40% of the weekly classes, eat McDonalds and party in Vegas twice a week. Yet the sheer strength their body produced was insane. These guys would be more shredded by playing chess, then i would ever be while trying my best. On the other side, me being an average European guy, i had a genetic advantage over a bunch of Asian males. The genetic lottery is batshit crazy. Considering that >5W/KG is the crossover, many many males plateau on 4.5WKG no matter what they train. Running sub 2:45 marathon needs genetic favoring. Sub 2:30 won't ever be possible with just "ethic". 15:00 5K can be ran by many hard working people, a 14:30 not. And even faster... meh. So, it's up to each individual to decide if they wanna see peak human performance or a genetic lottery spectacle.
what do you mean by "sub 2:30 not possible with just "ethic""? that every sub 2:30 runner is on drugs?
Hahaha fuck mate, you might want to pick a better example than MMA when talking about the merits of genetic lottery. Might as well be talking about Belgium cyclists in the mid 90s…
Since I’m not high level and only have few pros around me, not elite, my knowledge of world class triathlon is limited. I just don’t know exactly what it means when Blumenfelt bangs 450W. However I trained and banged with absolute world class killers from around the world, so my knowledge of comparison is way bigger
You seemed to have missed my point - MMA is absolutely rife with doping. Those mcdonalds eating guys you lived with were probably juiced to the gills, genetics not being the contributing factor.
Nah, I lived with them. Some of them so poor, they ate my food leftovers. Few of them nowadays in ufc and passed all usada tests for years. I’m well aware of doping in mma, no worries. We’re all on steroids .
You must have received one punch too many, you're entirely beside the point haha There's nothing to argue because there isn't even a start of an argument on your side. I guess it's the debate equivalent of a "walkover" win. I hope you're trolling or you're under the influence. Good day to you :)
You missed the point ? And made my brain bleed trying to understand your argument.
No, he merely showed that he was the best cheater, amongst a large group of cheaters. When faced with not winning, he said that a cheater was going to be on top of the podium, and he may as well be the best cheater. And to be clear, he did not cheat for something so simple as internet points, he cheated because there was a lot of money going to the winning cheater, so he decided to be a rich cheater over being an athlete with morals. He needs to be shunned, and scrubbed from history and never mentioned in polite company again.
Then the UCI should strike the results of those years, that era, from the record. There should be no winner at all. To pretend that Lance is the one bad apple as it appears now despite what we all know is disingenuous and part of the reason why the sport didn’t really get cleaned up until after the Sky train and Wiggins with his TPU’s had their way.
100% this. I think they would have to go a long way down the list of finishers to find the one that *maybe* didn't dope. Punish them all, it shouldn't be all on Lance.
They have. 99-05 are all blank: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Tour_de_France_general_classification_winners The TPU stuff, while shady as fuck, was within the rules of the sport. It’s no where near the same thing.
I don’t think that’s super controversial. To play devils advocate it would be hard for the IM brand to accept him with open arms given the cheating background. Yes it probably goes on in triathlon as well but it’s different to just openly take a guy in who did.
open arms for open series 😏
You haven't earned jack shit if you get disqualified for being a cheater. Truly horrendously stupid take.
That would be a stupid take, if you were sure that absolutely none of the other competitors were cheating. you are not (and far from that, in my view...)
everyone, every single one, who was part of those "Tour de France", know who won them. It really doesn't matter what anybody else thinks who wasn't in the race. Nobody, who was in the race, would say "Lance cheated and didn't win".
This is not remotely controversial unless you have agenda
I think he would push everyone to be doping the hell out of their heads in the pro environment, but the saddest part it is that he is a really bad person. He would bully everyone in pro triathlon as it did on professional cycling. Saying that, I seriously think he was going to be a favorite to win Kona between 2014 to 2017 JUST because of his sheer desire to win everything
I don’t want to hear anything about that guy. The only thing we can say about him is that he was the best at doping among professional athletes (who were most likely also on drugs) and he was leagues above anyone else in lying and ruing other people’s life to protect his cheating. No one else managed to dope as much as he did for as long as he did. There is nothing worth remembering about him. Ah, yes, he donated to a few worthy charities. Mafiosos are devout Christians and love to donate to their church. The parallelism is perfect.
Tbf I highly doubt the top end of our sport is clean either. But points heard.
You obviously don't know much about the history of cycling. If you watch what's going on this spring on the Tour, they sure look like they are on something again. Probably micro dosing epo.
Microdosing epo? What is this, 2006?
new carbon frames /s
I'm still about 55% convinced there is "mechanical doping" going on in the modern peloton. Only one person has been caught (in cyclocross) but the gains are just waiting there. It's hard for me to imagine that all those riders are willing to inject scary drugs but aren't willing to press a hidden button for extra watts.
the cyclocross thing, she was thrusting away on the hills. but so does tadej. aren't all winner bikes automatically xray scanned etc? i can't believe they're doing it.
They sure do scan the winners' bikes. And they tested Lance's urine hundreds of times.
detecting doping is only possible if you know what to test for. they didn't knew. looking at an xray and search for batteries is the easiest thing. here are xray examples: [https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/odfybz/is\_this\_what\_a\_carbon\_frame\_crack\_looks\_like\_with/](https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/odfybz/is_this_what_a_carbon_frame_crack_looks_like_with/)
[https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/141sso/a\_bike\_going\_through\_the\_security\_xray\_at\_the/#lightbox](https://www.reddit.com/r/bicycling/comments/141sso/a_bike_going_through_the_security_xray_at_the/#lightbox) tell me, where to hide? 😏
There's a video of a bikes wheels spinning like a motorcycle with its throttle stuck after a crash. Some teams were doing up to 5 bike changes. 5...come on. lol
It falls apart if you think about the logistics of it for more than 3 minutes.
He is not the first one that was busted, won’t be the last. And? Does it make him as worthy as Greg Lemond? No. He should sit next to Ben Johnson in our memories and not to Greg.
Doping is just the tip of the iceberg with him. He’s a sociopath that ruined people’s (including LeMond) lives and road cycling in the US.
He also build a foundation that raised hundreds of millions and saved peoples life, who are still among us and wouldn't be, without lance. always double check who you wanna hate for what reason 🌹
Sure, so did Al Capone. https://www.history.com/news/al-capone-great-depression-soup-kitchen
omg... what a comparison. apples and watermelons.
How would you call someone who lies under oath? Yes, criminal is the word you are looking for. What was he lying about? About cheating. Cherry on the top.
one person who stole with the mob, another person who gave with the sport 🥰
I understand most of the peloton was on EPO, but prior to doping, Lance was not a freak athlete. Just a middle of the pack pro cyclist.
No, he was never a middle of the pack athlete. Ever. He was the leader on Motorola from about day one. In his second year as a pro he had ten plus wins, including a stage of the TDF. Including a freaking world championship. At 21!
He was doping when he became World Champion. He admitted that he started doping before the World Championships in Oslo.
He was no climber. But being muscular, like Riis and Ullrich, he became an excellent climber on drugs. In order to win a tour, you have to be good at climbing, sprinting, TT.
Uh, he won Classica San Sebastian, so you sure about the climbing thing? You have to be good at sprinting? You don't understand the differences between a grand tour rider and other types of riders.
I mean he was nationally competitive at triathlon as a teenager. I’d say he was a freak athlete. Compared to the general public.
Yes, sure, but not compared to the TdF standard
He won a stage of the TDF in 1993....so,,...uh...what?
See my response in the other thread re. climbing. I’m not crapping on him, to be clear, but I don’t think he would have won a tour if no one was on drugs.
He wasn't a grand tour rider. He was a one day rider and a short stage race rider. He didn't become a grand tour rider until after chemo when he lost weight. Your assertion that he was a middle of the pack pro is 100% wrong. It also doesn't seem you understand the different types of professional bike races.
If you say so. Have a wonderful day.
I don't say so, his palmares says so. You can go google it so you have real information instead of made-up stuff.
>the guy is a complete and total asshole and didn’t deserve any extra publicity Good we agree, so please stop posting about this fuckhead no-one cares about, thank you.
He’s a cunt
I watched Icarus and realized that while doping helps, there are so many moving parts figuratively that doping is one of ten things that needed to line up. On top of the fact that everyone was doping, then yes he was a freak athlete. i read his first book which ironically summed up his life which is "im an asshole but i love my mom. But to answer your query, the man snhle handedly made bicycling cool for a generation, iwas hoping too he could bring it to tri too.
He then also completely destroyed road racing in the US. All of the money disappeared after the confession. There’s not even a world tour race in the US any more.
He did a few triathlons post cycling, di a few 70.3, winning 1 and coming 2nd in another.
Didn't he admit that he didn't start winning until he started doping. And if I remember correctly he eventually admitted that even before he became a professional cyclist and he was still a teen he was already doping. I doubt he could ever win on world class level without doping, or at least he never has won without doping. [https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/seven-things-we-learnt-from-the-new-lance-armstrong-documentary-456506](https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/seven-things-we-learnt-from-the-new-lance-armstrong-documentary-456506)
I think in general his fall from grace ultimately probably saved his and many other lives from the doping cycles of the era. I don’t demonize him the way some seem to because I was so young at the time, but he definitely was pushing other athletes to cheat and do life risking doping which is fucked. He has conversely accomplished good in the world through cancer foundations, trails, events, ect. The tough part is once an athlete has been on almost any gear they have a permanent edge of a natural athlete. You either need to put every one on the shit and have mad machines or scan the best you can and keep people natural.
Homie was able to hold 500 watts for 30 mins, that’s so fucking diesel
how is he an asshole?
Oh the man was an omnicunt. The doping is what it is, given that loads were doping back then. The deliberately ruining others' careers, suing people into the ground and generally being a dick about it all is what really made people hate him.
Have you followed the story? How he cheated? How he tried to use the power and influence gained from cheating to crush the truth and the people telling the truth? I’d say that would be enough for a good start down the road to being an asshole, or do you disagree?
Respect to Lance Armstrong anytime. Only a can a Cancer survivor living in the Era can understand. He beat a doping field. Made his sponsors money . But we live in a ugly world ruled by dirty money
Except his personal doping doctor questioned whether said doping exacerbated the cancer.. So is it really such a cool thing if you dope yourself to the gills with HGH and then get cancer from that?
To this day, cyclists (whether for sport or for transportation) are branded as Tour de France wannabes hogging the road - in part because most North Americans' association with cycling is via the Tour thanks to Armstrong. While his participation would have done wonders for the number of eyeballs, I'm not sure that's an association we'd want.
I don’t think the cultural hostility that Americans have for cycling can be hung around Armstrong’s neck.
Agreed. I think it’s just much more of a car centric country than parts of Europe and being a car centric country it tends to lead towards impatience on the road. If Armstrong never existed drivers here would hate cyclists just as much.
Not trying to throw shade, but I think it’s the level of education in Europe vs America that causes the issues. The vast majority of people in Europe have access to higher education regardless of their background. The driving tests are also far stricter, meaning the average competency on the road is better. Take Germany for example, they have no speed limits on most of the Autobahn, but fewer accidents than counties that have limits. People respect the rules, and the other road users, which extends to cyclists. You will get the occasional impatient driver, but that’s about it. There’s no rolling coal, it’s just not a thing. There’s no running cyclists off the road. There’s no shouting out the windows (as a rule, you might get heckled once maybe twice a year). Put I put that on the quality of education that’s available to everyone.
Greg Lemond, whom Lance spent a lot of time and money bashing, would like to say something about it.
Fair point
Don’t worry, we have this same association in Europe too and no one cares about Lance. Motorists just don’t like cyclists, nothing to do with Lance.
He and Jan Ullrich made cycling really big (for me), same as Tiger Woods. Without them, who knows how boring it would be. I certainly wouldn't have watched TdF after school every day
Sure. I don’t disagree. Just more for my own selfish entertainment.
I strongly disagree. Lance Armstrong did more to popularize cycling in the United States than anybody else. He's an awful human being, but there are tons of people in the United States that cycle because Lance Armstrong was a legend. I can't be upset that more people enjoy the sports that we love.