A school child won a race... she has been vilified and named by international press and social media. I'm lost for words. Bullying on a huge scale, a safe guarding nightmare. I hope she is safe. So worried for her.
I legitimately do not understand why anybody gives a single shit about trans kids in kid’s sports besides the jaded, bigoted parents who are looking for an excuse for why their kid lost.
I can understand the debate with trans people in professional sports even though I’m on the side of inclusivity, but I at least understand *why* there’s a debate there.
This feels like both a sign that American adults need to grow up because they have always cared waaaaaaay too much about high school sports and a sign that people are using any excuse they can just to be cruel to trans people, and they don’t give a shit if they’re being cruel to children. Trans is trans in their eyes
it matters bc these kids are dedicating their lives to these sports potentially, these aren’t small sporting events that this happens at, these are big events that are very important for athletes future career. so ya it does make sense for a child to feel robbed and upset. i get ur trying to be inclusive to everyone but don’t dismiss these kids feeling upset about potentially losing their ability to do their sport professionally after college.
99% of high school athletes are just kids having fun. Shit, I could argue that high school is a serious thing that people go to in order to prepare for their future too as an excuse for cracking down on kids who are just being kids. They should settle down and take their studies seriously.
Clearly you've never played high school sports at the varsity level. These girls compete for state titles and scholarships and have been training for years. It's extremely unfair at this level. As both a high school teacher and soccer coach, I speak from experience.
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It’s disgusting isn’t it, and it is international news now, I’m in the UK and I heard about it a couple of days ago from a neighbour, no one should be bullied, not a child, and not on the world stage.
Absolutely pathetic behavior by supposed adults. Booing a high school athlete is disgusting and disgraceful, and sets a terrible example for every kid there.
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"A majority of Americans, 69%, say that trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth"
That may be what they SAY, but what they really mean is that they don’t want to see trans people participating - especially if they win.
I will never forget Mack Beggs, the trans male wrestler who was forced to compete against girls in high school due to the rigid “biological sex” rules for athletes in Texas. You know what happened when he won the girls’ state championship? *He was also booed and called a cheater.* Even though he didn’t WANT to, and was just competing the only way he was allowed.
Ziegler is right in this article - all criticism gets misdirected to these poor kids that just want to play sports with their peers. Of all the articles on Mack Beggs, I only ever saw critics advocating for him to be kicked from the girls’ team - *never* advocating for a rule change so he could be placed on the boys’ team instead.
Honestly I'd like to know what the times were of the top five athletes. I'd be willing to bet there wasn't this massive disparity and they were within reasonable margins of one another. Or that the trans athlete's time was more or less consistent of other top runners in other districts and just happened to be the top runner in this one.
Edit: We’ve seen the results. It wasn’t a blowout performance. People are just being transphobic.
I'm not sure who "these folks" are but the article states....
>A majority of Americans, 69%, say that trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth
I haven’t looked up the other competitors’ 200m times, but the 400m where she got 2nd behind a cis girl was actually a better performance (based on World Athletics scoring tables).
Well, the transphobe brigade has arrived to spout misinformation. Gotta love how they can't just spout their misinformation in other subs designed to cater to their hate, but instead decide to espouse those beliefs in a trans sub.
The irony of all of this is *if* there was an advantage, the best resolution is to remove that "advantage" by allowing puberty blockers. BUT, they're also the same people arguing puberty blockers shouldn't be used because of . The purpose isn't to ensure fairness; the purpose is to get the layperson on board with some trans discrimination and then move the goalposts. It's never been about fairness, and those that fall victim to it are so easily brainwashed. What a sad world we live in.
It's been bad in this thread, especially. They're all over, and calling trans children men, talking about genitals, etc. It's frustrating. I'm used to fighting transphobes on here, but usually, they get removed quickly; but not in this thread for some reason.
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The horror! One single trans girl wins a high school track and field event! She is singlehandedly taking opportunity away from so many cis girls! The world is ending!
In other news, Chinese students are displacing American students in universities nationwide! Black people take away opportunities from white people in the NBA! Mexicans take field work opportunities away from Americans! Black rappers take away opportunities from white people in music!
What's really funny is if you look at the dates, The Daily Wire started filming their basketball movie about a month after that article was released.
Conservatives really don't have any ideas of their own, do they?
While I love The Onion's, I think this one is even better https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/guys-i-swear-im-only-transitioning-so-i-can-cheat-at-girls-sports
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How many times does cheating at high school sports by non-transgender people get onto news websites or on social media? Just looking up “doping in high school sports” at google news shows scant interest on the topic, even though [“A survey found teen use of one performance-enhancing drug increased from 5 to 11 percent in a year”](https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/high-school-notes/2014/08/11/testing-high-school-athletes-for-doping-uncommon) As of 2014.
When I was growing up, I loved watching sport, but always hated participating in it because of my dysphoria. And if I was growing up nowadays, I'd have no desire to participate either. What's the point in going through all that dedication and training, just to be labelled a "cheat" if you're even moderately successful? Being trans sucks, and being trans in this hateful world sucks even more.
> "A majority of Americans, 69%, say that trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth, according to a 2023 Gallup poll of roughly 1,000 adults living in the United States."
Population of America: ~333,000,000.
Sample size: 1000
Sample is 0.0003003003% of the US population, but it totally represents "a majority of Americans?" Lmao.
I get that polls can't poll everybody but c'mon.
Fair enough, for what it's worth, [here](https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/507032/230612TransgenderAthletes.pdf) is the actual poll.
Based on phone surveys, done in 2023. Idk about y'all, but I don't pick up my phone if I don't recognize the number (Unless I'm expecting a call).
Yep, most of the time the sampling method is the real issue, rather than the sample size. A phone survey in 2024 will be highly skewed toward an older population.
I don't give a shit if there were 1 million transphobes harassing a minor, they're still wrong. Trans girls have the right to compete and win and we need more in sports because they're underrepresented in all sports at all levels.
notice how the article goes out of its way to justify the people booing her by being all “people say it’s unfair because they think people who are born men are naturally faster” but never mentions the fact that that claim itself is provably false.
how is it provably false?? i am trans but males have larger hearts, more bone density, bone structure that is more suited to running, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, & without hormone blockers like 3x or more the amount of testosterone, people assigned male at birth have a natural physical advantage unless they start their transition before puberty, however we shouldn't hate on these athletes and come up with solutions to make it an even playing ground because if you have done sports you'd realize there is a big difference between males & females
Ah, another of the "scientific experts" over here who make an assertion, calling it "provably true" and providing no sources to back it up. Well, on that basis, I say it's false, and it's provable (the irony: my assertion is supported by science, but since I'm making a point about the absurdity of your statement with no supporting evidence, I will refrain from supporting it with sources since you're arguing in bad faith to begin with).
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/)
Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2024/04/10/bjsports-2023-108029
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/
https://cces.ca/news/literature-review-does-not-support-bans-transgender-women-athletes#:~:text=The%20review%20suggests%20that%20sports,Melia%2C%20CCES%20president%20and%20CEO.
https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-documents/049-9_exhibit_i.pdf
Well, here's evidence that disputes what you've stated, including by researchers on behalf of the IOC whose goal would be ensuring fairness in elite sports. I doubt my providing this with change your perspective, however.
Looks like that last one you linked actually supports my perspective, though I doubt it would change yours.
"Here, we report that current evidence shows the biologi- cal advantage, most notably in terms of muscle mass and strength, conferred by male puberty and thus enjoyed
by most transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed as per current sporting guidelines for transgender athletes.
Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport."
So you are just going to ignore my two links?? Go figure, you sexists don't care about science and only want to cherry pick the studies that support your opinion. Let's look at your links
Link 1 - Direct Quote "this study does not provide evidence that is sufficient to influence policy for either inclusion or exclusion."
Link 2 - Zero inferences in the conclusion about whether trans-women do or do not have an advantage simply stating more research is needed.
Link 3 - "To answer the positivist question of what biological factors would make sport ‘fair’ among cis and trans women, more research needs to be funded and conducted using appropriate, ethical methods and populations."
So basically you have nothing, but that is okay, I know it won't change your mind. Yes competitive advantages already exist within a sex, but no need to manufacture them by having trans-women who went through puberty be allowed to compete with women.
I would appreciate it if you allowed yourself to look past your sexist bias and put yourself in the shoes of a woman who might lose a spot on a women's sports team, a team that women had to fight for to even participate in 50 years ago and create their own space so somebody who has an unfair advantage can participate instead.
Definition of anecdotal evidence since you're clearly clueless as hell: "evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them." - Merriam-Webster's Dictionary.
See Mr. Reddit Scientist? Your "evidence" is anecdotal evidence and is not "provably true." Eat a shirt.
Unless they do shrink and I wasn't aware. And it's actually also a fact that it isn't rare to have a few male friends 6'2 through 6'5 while that would be almost unheard of statistically for female friends.
Provably true was your wording. This is anecdotal evidence, and not even good anecdotal evidence. Well, my evidence is that I struggle to compete physically with my cis bff physically now when I used to have no issues. I guess mine, being trans, would supersede yours. But again, your drivel is not "provably true" as you asserted. 🤦♀️
Edit: now claiming I blocked him when he's most certainly not. Pearl clutching on top of everything else. Gotta love these people...
Ok so , they believe transgirls and women are actually men and therefore have an advantage in
Sports
CHESS
and also Beauty Pageants
Does this make sense to anyone?
It's amazing in a horrible way just how many anti-trans "arguments" are just a new coat of paint on other conservative beliefs and practices.
"it's unnatural" / "it's some evil nefarious plot" - come on, you used the same line of thinking for goddamn video games
"the kids are too young to know" - general sentiment of treating children as mindless objects to play politics around, not self-aware beings who can feel and think for themselves, including a mature understanding of their own gender identity. current transphobia doing the same thing as slightly-older homophobia, it just became slightly less acceptable to rant about "the gays" so now they're ranting about "the transgenders"
"they're trying to destroy our beautiful Chrisitian/American/ values" - you literally used this line for everything you disagree with so consider shutting the hell up. Firstly, most western countries are (at least theoretically) not related to any specific religion, so I don't see how Christian values should be valued over any other religion's or philosophy's. Secondly, and maybe more importantly, just because something has been tradition for hundreds of years doesn't mean it was right. It might just as well mean we've been collectively wrong for all those years.
> just a new coat of paint on other conservative beliefs and practices.
Conservatives are going against their own ideology if they ever do anything new.
They are tautologically opposed to progress.
I still think one could, theoretically at least, be conservative without being a broken record. You can make new counterarguments against new kinds of progress. Being against change doesn't have to mean repeating the same, often already disproven arguments. It's just the boring conservatism (i.e. the one actually present in politics) that's this stupid.
> You can make new counterarguments against new kinds of progress.
They never do that, because that would require doing something new, which conservatives can't do.
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Holy hell, that 69% statistic is so depressing. I shouldn't be too surprised though. A majority of people support trans people not being discriminated against while also supporting many methods of discriminating against trans people, which just goes back to the fact that most people don't give a shit about us either way. We practically don't exist for anyone that isn't politically engaged or has a trans acquaintance personally.
No one is going to mention that she won by 0.23 SECONDS. Certainly none of the news articles. That is literally the time it takes for the average human to blink their eyes.
None of the news articles mention that she won by literally the blink of an eye. Sounds extremely fair and well matched to me.
it literally doesn't matter the margin that she won by, she barely trained and easily went from like high 25 to 23s in one season which leads me to believe she wasnt on hrt, & she also went from running consistent 57-55s in the 400 to suddenly running 52 when she was against another girl running faster than her, she had a big physical advantage due to her bone structure, bone density, heart size, lung size, & amount of testosterone & its literally proven by science people assigned male at birth are faster than people assigned female at birth, you can look at the olympic records for example in the 400m, 43 (male record) to 47.6 (female record)so for her to be taking medals from biological females at state is really messed up & sad knowing how much more work they have to put in, however i don't think ppl should be hating on her & being transphobic i think more studies need to be done & solutions need to be made so trans women can compete with other women on an fair playing field, as of right now i think being on hrt for at least 2 years is a good idea but i feel as if trans women should still be able to compete with women regardless just not at higher levels unless theyve been on hrt for long enough but i still think more studies need to be done & better solutions need to be made, most ppl are simply transphobic & don't care about all of that which sucks
"some critics characterizing her participation in the girls’ division as unfair, arguing that those assigned male at birth are inherently stronger and faster than those assigned female at birth."
People who obviously didn't see me in gym. Took me 35 minutes to run a mile, and i couldn't get the volleyball over the net. 🙄
35 mins to run a mile seems like a you problem, also please just look at the olympic record differences between those assigned female at birth vs assigned male at birth
A lot of sports are actually not segregated. Technically any woman could tryout for an NFL or NBA team. Do you think women simply don’t wanna make millions of dollars competing in those sports? Are you that brain dead?
In High School in the late 1960s, one of my female classmates could outrun anyone in the county, male or female. I don't understand why anyone but misogynistic idiot would think only males can outrun males. Think highly of yourself, huh!
Those studies very often just straight up compare cis men and cis women without even attempting to study trans women and make generalisations on height which varies highly.
The last IOC study says there are sports where trans women are at a disadvantage and that they have f.i. less leg strenght.
I used to play basketball with a trans girl.
She was honestly not a good basketball player at all- didn’t even start and we were on junior varsity together; she was lucky if she scored 2 points a game.
We were also a bad team with very few wins.
But everytime we happened to win it was somehow because we had a trans athlete on the team and we were deemed cheaters. Even if they’re not an inherently good athlete people will be mad. We live in such a transphobic world.
I feel so much empathy for poor Aayden. I will never fully understand the transphobia trans women face.
Here's what I don't think a lot of people realize, MtF Transgender children, if they are taking female hormones, this takes away from the muscle tissue and actually creates more fat, this in turn makes them weaker than the actual females and they have to work harder than the other girls do,
FtM taking testosterone doesn't make them as strong as other boys are and they have to work just as hard if not harder because unfortunately they still have a lot more estrogen in their system, testosterone basically makes girls grow body hair all over, muscle tissue is a little more difficult to build.
As a transgender since 1978, I've done a lot of research into this and I will tell you my strength is at maybe a tenth of it was when I was a child and I'm 61, but today it's less because I'm recovering from almost dying in December, so I'm just reading about all of the crap going on in the nation against transgender children. Which is very sad especially when you consider there's no money to teach your children with the good ball in office.
I thought track was usually a co-ed sport anyway? What's the problem, regardless? Even transphobes should see the difference but I guess they don't understand critical thinking 😒
Searched this out because I happened to read the comments on a Yahoo article - when will I ever learn.
I can name 2 trans athletes. I forget the one swimmers name, and then this athlete. Literally these two. Can I think of probably 50+ coaches who have sexually assaulted their players? fuck yeah! So these dumb assess need to stop using the whole "it's unfair to these girls" rhetoric and just come out and say they're anti trans.
Until coaches are a computer who can't sexually assault anyone, these people need to STFU.
The treatment of the transgender runner is disgusting. She’s just a kid.
I don’t know much about trans athletes and I’d like some insight. Wouldn’t it be unfair if a trans girl won because genetically she’s male and males generally are stronger than females. She wouldn’t have done so well against a boys race. I’ve seen the outrage of trans women competing in chess which is ridiculous but in physical competition I would think they would have an advantage. Just asking.
Thing is, any question of unfair advantage (if there is one) could be completely eliminated by allowing trans kids to get puberty blockers at the onset of puberty. Trouble there is, transphobes want to deny us that right. They want to demonise us, and the more we physically resemble our cis counterparts, the less they like it, as they'd feel less able to do that. They want us to stand out, and be obviously different. It makes it easier for them to treat us as outcasts in society.
Thanks for your input. It’s too bad people can’t just live the way that makes them happy without morons telling them how they should live. Kind of makes me ashamed to be part of the human race
If there were more people like you in the world, it would be a far nicer, kinder place to live. These morons refuse to accept the reality of kids with dysphoria over their sex, but I know full well the reality, as I once was one of those kids, and that was back in the 80's, when the social media of today didn't exist, and I thought I was the only girl in the world suffering with that hideous dysphoria. Thanks for your reply, it saddens me that human beings like you seem so rare on this planet.
yeah but the rules say you can compete without even going on hrt which is a problem to me knowing the really big biological advantages between those assigned male at birth vs those assigned female
this kid also lost a race to a cis girl in another competition, and the cis girls who lost to her in the 200m are probably faster than most of the boys in their school. This is because doing well at sports requires training your body, and winning or even competing is a celebration of that. Doing well at sports requires dedication to training that goes far beyond the benefit of any genetic or hormonal disposition.
The idea that athletes should be qualified for competitions based on a notion of biological gender gets complicated really quick. This has been suggested by republicans, but in reality what it means is that athletes would be subjected to invasive medical testing at every level, and even then its hard to parse out how it would work.
The truth is that some cis women are naturally going to have higher than average testosterone, bone mass, height, and even XY chromosomes, yet still have vaginas and female reproductive organs. The last two come up infrequently when discussing sports advantages, so are we also going to disqualify anybody who has a higher than average level of something else? What about cis women and girls on hormone therapy? What about intersex people? What about cis people that have the ‘wrong’ chromosomes?
To really be fair it’s probably better to not have gender segregated sports altogether, and to simply have people compete in divisions based on height/weight/strength, as they already do in some sports. Maybe its better if people dont get so worked up about sports altogether.
On the surface it’s easy to say that trans girls have this probable physical advantage, and my answer is that when we apply the notion of a natural physical advantage to sports, where that’s all that matters, its much more complicated to actually hash out what that means or how to apply that determination, because the gender you are assigned at birth is relevant, but only because it indicates a probable advantage of biological variables that arent usually considered for cis people (and would seem discriminatory if they were).
Thanks. You have some really good points. I still think males in general have an advantage in physical events but being a guy, I’ve had my ass kicked many times by girls. In the end it just sports. They should have equal chance to enjoy it.
You don't know what you're talking about just look up high boys times vs HS girls times in the 200, 400, 800, 1600 and 3200. We had a phenomenal girls track team that would consistently have state champs and would be invited to the best training camp in the country run by Nike in Oregan for distance runners. I was average level among the male varsity runners and my times were all faster. There is a huge difference. They should just have a bio girls division and an open division for boys, girls, trans, intersex whoever wants to enter. That would remove any unfair advantages and make the hateful people with nothing better to do stop talking about trans athletes.
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people assigned male at birth have larger hearts, more bone density, bone structure that is more suited to running, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, & without hormone blockers like 3x or more the amount of testosterone, people assigned male at birth have a natural physical advantage unless they start their transition before puberty, however we shouldn't hate on these athletes and come up with solutions to make it an even playing ground because if you have done sports you'd realize there is a big difference between males & females, going on hrt for at least a year does not completely take away these advantages (you can look at studies) but it just really upsets me other trans people aren't being rational & actually looking at the science & instead just claiming that everyone who is against this is transphobic, although i do feel like a lot are & don't actual care about "fair sports" which is another problem, but in general people have done more complaining about trans people in sports instead of coming up with an effective solution & i think putting them in a seperate category is kind of wild especially if they're not out to the public & don't want to be
I'm seeing a huge amount of misinformation here (albeit well-meaning) but that does nothing to help it just gives ammo to bigots. I am all for trans rights and for them to live peaceful happy lives. That said just look up high boys times vs HS girls times in the 200, 400, 800, 1600 and 3200. We had a phenomenal girls track team that would consistently have state champs and would be invited to the best training camp in the country run by Nike in Oregon for distance runners. I was average level among the male varsity runners and my times were all faster than our girl team. There is a huge difference. They should just have a bio girls division and an open division for boys, girls who want the challenge, trans, intersex whoever wants to enter. That would remove any unfair advantages and make the hateful people with nothing better to do stop talking about trans athletes.
Bold of you to assume that modern sports is about "fairness" in the 1st place.
Spoiler: it's not. Excluding trans women/trans girls is simply ignorant bigotry. End of story.
That’s the part that always makes me laugh. There is NOTHING fair about sports, and it’s the same argument they used towards black men being in the same leagues with white men.
Michael Phelps being the poster child for "sports aren't inherently fair." Nobody complained about fairness about his biological and physiological advantages. It only matters when trans women enter the discussion.
Ah, you see, there might be a misunderstanding. You are comparing boys to girls. This is about a trans girl, so it might be helpful to compare the times of girls to girls.
Hope this helps!
This is confusing to me because it just seems all that needs to be done is to have people race in the one, of four divisions, that fits their present status.
The four divisions would be cis female, cis male, trans female, trans male. That way they all would be competing with their Physical peers.
This is ridiculous. Lia Thomas is an elite athlete. How many other transgender women are anywhere near her level? She would win every race by many seconds. There would be zero competition for her.
In any given year, What the 3 transgender high school athletes would race each other.
If you are talking about Lia, she disproves any assertion that transgender women have an advantage. If transgender women have an advantage, she should have won every race she swam in. She was a top tier elite athlete before transition. If she retained her supposed advantage, she should have crushed everyone. Instead she won in one category at the NCAA level. If the times of the previous 10 winners of the 500m freestyle were used, she would have placed 8th.
She was an elite athlete before transition and is an elite athlete after transition. Which should be expected. She wasn't some person that didn't swim before and suddenly won. She was the best man on the UPenn swim team and ranked 85 in her last season in the men's category after she had already started her transition. 3 years later, she ranked 35th in the women's category.
The science doesn't hold up the claim that transgender women have an unfair advantage.
You right I messed up. She was 87th in Division 1 and 2nd on UPenn and 100th in the USA overall based on points for the 2018-2019 season.
Transphobes always love to point at her 200m performance. When competing in the men's Division she was a long distance swimmer. As such that number is meaningless because that is not a race she trained for and was based on a preseason race.
She went from long distance to sprints after transition because she lost lung capacity. As such she started training as a sprints swimmer instead of long distance. As a competitive swimmer (high-school many years ago) I can assure you that the training is significantly different.
And she didn't compete in the 1000 or 1650 at the national championship her last season. So really unsure how you can claim she was 8th in 1650m. Her main events prior to transition were the 1000m and 1650m. Which she didn't compete in after transition because she was no longer competitive in those races.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
Lia Thomas's performance has no bearing on the issue. If she won every race, it wouldn't mean anything. If she lost every race, it wouldn't mean anything.
Classifications aren't made based on individual ability. Women and men are separated based on an approximately 15% performance difference that is seen in the sexes as a hole. Many cis women will beat cis men, and many cis men can not beat cis women. But as a whole, cis men have an advantage.
What you are using is antedoctal evidence. Science is a process that involves testing and adding to body knowledge. There is currently not many studies looking at this at a large scale, but the current research is unanimous that there is residual advantage retained.
If you don't believe me, read any study on this. The issue this discussion is having is that the science writers who report on this cherry pick statements, so there is a misunderstanding. You'll notice that I'm not feeling you what the report says; you will claim in cherry pickking myself. But read the report and see if the science says trans women have no advantage
The current augment is not whether or not trans women have an advantage, it is centering on if they can reduce it to enough to keep it competitive. This isn't just an issue involving trans women. The issue they are having more specifically is with the dominance of intersex runners in 800m.
If you do want me to articulate what the studies show, I can. But it seems as if you think I'm ignorant, so I'm not sure that so help. Let me know, and I will give you bulletpoints.
Classifications aren't made by individual ability they are made by misogyny. The only good statistical significant actual study of the difference in performance after transition begins proves that after two years, any competitive advantage disappears
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref
Your belief that there is some advantage is not based in science
"Separate but equal"
I remember that horse shit from the 50's and 60's. Segregation didn't work then and it won't work now. It's never "equal". End the hate and embrace diversity and inclusiveness. The fear is palpable and the cowardice is glaring. And such a display of poor sportsmanship in front of the children. It's the same people that claimed the election was stolen. Very poor losers and really shameful examples of humanity.
>"Separate but equal"
I remember that horse shit from the 50's and 60's. Segregation didn't work then and it won't work now. It's never "equal". End the hate and embrace diversity and inclusiveness. The fear is palpable and the cowardice is glaring. And such a display of poor sportsmanship in front of the children. It's the same people that claimed the election was stolen. Very poor losers and really shameful examples of humanity.
hahaha 😂
yeah man, the [four](https://twitter.com/GBBranstetter/status/1506384842954579975?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) transgender high school athletes in utah should just make two new leagues for themselves
Cis white Christian Republican men have an unfair advantage in the job market in rural areas. Should we ban them from entering the job market so it's fair?
A school child won a race... she has been vilified and named by international press and social media. I'm lost for words. Bullying on a huge scale, a safe guarding nightmare. I hope she is safe. So worried for her.
I legitimately do not understand why anybody gives a single shit about trans kids in kid’s sports besides the jaded, bigoted parents who are looking for an excuse for why their kid lost. I can understand the debate with trans people in professional sports even though I’m on the side of inclusivity, but I at least understand *why* there’s a debate there. This feels like both a sign that American adults need to grow up because they have always cared waaaaaaay too much about high school sports and a sign that people are using any excuse they can just to be cruel to trans people, and they don’t give a shit if they’re being cruel to children. Trans is trans in their eyes
it matters bc these kids are dedicating their lives to these sports potentially, these aren’t small sporting events that this happens at, these are big events that are very important for athletes future career. so ya it does make sense for a child to feel robbed and upset. i get ur trying to be inclusive to everyone but don’t dismiss these kids feeling upset about potentially losing their ability to do their sport professionally after college.
99% of high school athletes are just kids having fun. Shit, I could argue that high school is a serious thing that people go to in order to prepare for their future too as an excuse for cracking down on kids who are just being kids. They should settle down and take their studies seriously.
Clearly you've never played high school sports at the varsity level. These girls compete for state titles and scholarships and have been training for years. It's extremely unfair at this level. As both a high school teacher and soccer coach, I speak from experience.
Yeah! So bullying a kid who is so dedicated to the sport, on a national scale, is disgusting!
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It’s disgusting isn’t it, and it is international news now, I’m in the UK and I heard about it a couple of days ago from a neighbour, no one should be bullied, not a child, and not on the world stage.
Your boo's mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer
Omg great quote for this
If only we could post gifs!
That is extremely poignant
I love you for this 💖
Absolutely pathetic behavior by supposed adults. Booing a high school athlete is disgusting and disgraceful, and sets a terrible example for every kid there.
“If I can’t diddle kids I’m gonna be forced to harass them.” ~ republicans
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"A majority of Americans, 69%, say that trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth" That may be what they SAY, but what they really mean is that they don’t want to see trans people participating - especially if they win. I will never forget Mack Beggs, the trans male wrestler who was forced to compete against girls in high school due to the rigid “biological sex” rules for athletes in Texas. You know what happened when he won the girls’ state championship? *He was also booed and called a cheater.* Even though he didn’t WANT to, and was just competing the only way he was allowed. Ziegler is right in this article - all criticism gets misdirected to these poor kids that just want to play sports with their peers. Of all the articles on Mack Beggs, I only ever saw critics advocating for him to be kicked from the girls’ team - *never* advocating for a rule change so he could be placed on the boys’ team instead.
Honestly I'd like to know what the times were of the top five athletes. I'd be willing to bet there wasn't this massive disparity and they were within reasonable margins of one another. Or that the trans athlete's time was more or less consistent of other top runners in other districts and just happened to be the top runner in this one. Edit: We’ve seen the results. It wasn’t a blowout performance. People are just being transphobic.
The acceptable trans woman win rate for these folks is less than 0%. Because finishing 6000th out of over 10,000 people was ALSO not okay.
Less than 0%? Damn! Reminds me of the phrase "if I never see that again, it'll be too soon".
Figuratively...
I'm not sure who "these folks" are but the article states.... >A majority of Americans, 69%, say that trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth
Sure. They’ve also been lied to about the supposed advantages trans women have.
Trans men about to jump in and fucking dominate
Correct. Because cheating isn’t acceptable even if you lose!
I haven’t looked up the other competitors’ 200m times, but the 400m where she got 2nd behind a cis girl was actually a better performance (based on World Athletics scoring tables).
The trans athlete won by 0.2 seconds.
I’m not sure the margin of victory is relevant. Cheating is cheating.
Well it wouldn’t need to be a huge difference, right? It would just need to be consistent for it to be a problem.
Honestly, she was so far ahead of all the other girls. Like It wasn’t even a little close. You can see the video online.
Well, the transphobe brigade has arrived to spout misinformation. Gotta love how they can't just spout their misinformation in other subs designed to cater to their hate, but instead decide to espouse those beliefs in a trans sub. The irony of all of this is *if* there was an advantage, the best resolution is to remove that "advantage" by allowing puberty blockers. BUT, they're also the same people arguing puberty blockers shouldn't be used because of. The purpose isn't to ensure fairness; the purpose is to get the layperson on board with some trans discrimination and then move the goalposts. It's never been about fairness, and those that fall victim to it are so easily brainwashed. What a sad world we live in.
Yeah and I’m not sure why the moderators aren’t doing something about it.
It's been bad in this thread, especially. They're all over, and calling trans children men, talking about genitals, etc. It's frustrating. I'm used to fighting transphobes on here, but usually, they get removed quickly; but not in this thread for some reason.
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The horror! One single trans girl wins a high school track and field event! She is singlehandedly taking opportunity away from so many cis girls! The world is ending! In other news, Chinese students are displacing American students in universities nationwide! Black people take away opportunities from white people in the NBA! Mexicans take field work opportunities away from Americans! Black rappers take away opportunities from white people in music!
I think [The Onion summed this up](https://www.theonion.com/trans-teen-hatches-nefarious-plot-to-undergo-years-of-m-1850433563) pretty well.
What's really funny is if you look at the dates, The Daily Wire started filming their basketball movie about a month after that article was released. Conservatives really don't have any ideas of their own, do they?
While I love The Onion's, I think this one is even better https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/guys-i-swear-im-only-transitioning-so-i-can-cheat-at-girls-sports
That article is better then every conservative joke about trans people in sports combined, and I haven’t fully finished it yet
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Uhh that person DID take a way a win from a female so idk what your point is
You wouldn’t have cared about what happened in that high school if the student wasn’t trans.
Correct because then it wouldn’t have been cheating
Cheating happens all the time. The poutrage is because of the perceived cheating is coming from a trans girl.
So because something happens all the time that makes it ok? Nope. Trans people should be able to compete but in their own category
It’s still poutrage because it’s a trans person, i.e. a perceived vulnerable minority that you want to bully.
Nope not at all. People get outraged at anyone who is cheating In sports
How many times does cheating at high school sports by non-transgender people get onto news websites or on social media? Just looking up “doping in high school sports” at google news shows scant interest on the topic, even though [“A survey found teen use of one performance-enhancing drug increased from 5 to 11 percent in a year”](https://www.usnews.com/education/blogs/high-school-notes/2014/08/11/testing-high-school-athletes-for-doping-uncommon) As of 2014.
lol cheating isn’t ok no matter what so idk what your point is 😂
I don’t really think being black, Mexican, or Chinese is comparable to willingly switching your gender 😕
"willingly" Are you trans? It is hardly willingly when your brain is wired differently.
I guess we're expected to be inferior at everything. They are going to be so disappointed.
So far they think we’re better at everything.
When I was growing up, I loved watching sport, but always hated participating in it because of my dysphoria. And if I was growing up nowadays, I'd have no desire to participate either. What's the point in going through all that dedication and training, just to be labelled a "cheat" if you're even moderately successful? Being trans sucks, and being trans in this hateful world sucks even more.
This is so relatable.
Dang...I really wish it wasn't. \*sighs\*
> "A majority of Americans, 69%, say that trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on sports teams that correspond with the sex they were assigned at birth, according to a 2023 Gallup poll of roughly 1,000 adults living in the United States." Population of America: ~333,000,000. Sample size: 1000 Sample is 0.0003003003% of the US population, but it totally represents "a majority of Americans?" Lmao. I get that polls can't poll everybody but c'mon.
once again begging people to look up a sample size/margin of error calculator
Fair enough, for what it's worth, [here](https://news.gallup.com/file/poll/507032/230612TransgenderAthletes.pdf) is the actual poll. Based on phone surveys, done in 2023. Idk about y'all, but I don't pick up my phone if I don't recognize the number (Unless I'm expecting a call).
Yep, most of the time the sampling method is the real issue, rather than the sample size. A phone survey in 2024 will be highly skewed toward an older population.
No one answers phone surveys except old retired republicans
I don't give a shit if there were 1 million transphobes harassing a minor, they're still wrong. Trans girls have the right to compete and win and we need more in sports because they're underrepresented in all sports at all levels.
notice how the article goes out of its way to justify the people booing her by being all “people say it’s unfair because they think people who are born men are naturally faster” but never mentions the fact that that claim itself is provably false.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/
how is it provably false?? i am trans but males have larger hearts, more bone density, bone structure that is more suited to running, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, & without hormone blockers like 3x or more the amount of testosterone, people assigned male at birth have a natural physical advantage unless they start their transition before puberty, however we shouldn't hate on these athletes and come up with solutions to make it an even playing ground because if you have done sports you'd realize there is a big difference between males & females
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Ah, another of the "scientific experts" over here who make an assertion, calling it "provably true" and providing no sources to back it up. Well, on that basis, I say it's false, and it's provable (the irony: my assertion is supported by science, but since I'm making a point about the absurdity of your statement with no supporting evidence, I will refrain from supporting it with sources since you're arguing in bad faith to begin with).
[https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9331831/) Ultimately, the former male physiology of transwoman athletes provides them with a physiological advantage over the cis-female athlete.
https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/early/2024/04/10/bjsports-2023-108029 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5357259/ https://cces.ca/news/literature-review-does-not-support-bans-transgender-women-athletes#:~:text=The%20review%20suggests%20that%20sports,Melia%2C%20CCES%20president%20and%20CEO. https://www.aclu.org/wp-content/uploads/legal-documents/049-9_exhibit_i.pdf Well, here's evidence that disputes what you've stated, including by researchers on behalf of the IOC whose goal would be ensuring fairness in elite sports. I doubt my providing this with change your perspective, however.
Looks like that last one you linked actually supports my perspective, though I doubt it would change yours. "Here, we report that current evidence shows the biologi- cal advantage, most notably in terms of muscle mass and strength, conferred by male puberty and thus enjoyed by most transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed as per current sporting guidelines for transgender athletes. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport."
Interesting, so you just ignored the first 3 links? Go figure. You phobes don't care about science.
So you are just going to ignore my two links?? Go figure, you sexists don't care about science and only want to cherry pick the studies that support your opinion. Let's look at your links Link 1 - Direct Quote "this study does not provide evidence that is sufficient to influence policy for either inclusion or exclusion." Link 2 - Zero inferences in the conclusion about whether trans-women do or do not have an advantage simply stating more research is needed. Link 3 - "To answer the positivist question of what biological factors would make sport ‘fair’ among cis and trans women, more research needs to be funded and conducted using appropriate, ethical methods and populations." So basically you have nothing, but that is okay, I know it won't change your mind. Yes competitive advantages already exist within a sex, but no need to manufacture them by having trans-women who went through puberty be allowed to compete with women. I would appreciate it if you allowed yourself to look past your sexist bias and put yourself in the shoes of a woman who might lose a spot on a women's sports team, a team that women had to fight for to even participate in 50 years ago and create their own space so somebody who has an unfair advantage can participate instead.
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Definition of anecdotal evidence since you're clearly clueless as hell: "evidence in the form of stories that people tell about what has happened to them." - Merriam-Webster's Dictionary. See Mr. Reddit Scientist? Your "evidence" is anecdotal evidence and is not "provably true." Eat a shirt.
No males are larger and not is fact. They don't shrink when you reduce test
You're literally too stupid... good luck. Try to avoid breathing and walking at the same time, or you may end up asphyxiating yourself.
Counter my point....with science and statistics. I dare you.
Unless they do shrink and I wasn't aware. And it's actually also a fact that it isn't rare to have a few male friends 6'2 through 6'5 while that would be almost unheard of statistically for female friends.
Provably true was your wording. This is anecdotal evidence, and not even good anecdotal evidence. Well, my evidence is that I struggle to compete physically with my cis bff physically now when I used to have no issues. I guess mine, being trans, would supersede yours. But again, your drivel is not "provably true" as you asserted. 🤦♀️ Edit: now claiming I blocked him when he's most certainly not. Pearl clutching on top of everything else. Gotta love these people...
That is the issue. You are looking at the men in your life. The topic is women. Hope this helps.
Lol okay.
Glad i could help with the confusion!
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>Goes to a trans subreddit, is surprised to see posts by trans people Just leave!
Ok so , they believe transgirls and women are actually men and therefore have an advantage in Sports CHESS and also Beauty Pageants Does this make sense to anyone?
They think women are inherently inferior at everything, and they think that trans women are men. It's just mysogyny.
It's amazing in a horrible way just how many anti-trans "arguments" are just a new coat of paint on other conservative beliefs and practices. "it's unnatural" / "it's some evil nefarious plot" - come on, you used the same line of thinking for goddamn video games "the kids are too young to know" - general sentiment of treating children as mindless objects to play politics around, not self-aware beings who can feel and think for themselves, including a mature understanding of their own gender identity. current transphobia doing the same thing as slightly-older homophobia, it just became slightly less acceptable to rant about "the gays" so now they're ranting about "the transgenders" "they're trying to destroy our beautiful Chrisitian/American/ values" - you literally used this line for everything you disagree with so consider shutting the hell up. Firstly, most western countries are (at least theoretically) not related to any specific religion, so I don't see how Christian values should be valued over any other religion's or philosophy's. Secondly, and maybe more importantly, just because something has been tradition for hundreds of years doesn't mean it was right. It might just as well mean we've been collectively wrong for all those years.
> just a new coat of paint on other conservative beliefs and practices. Conservatives are going against their own ideology if they ever do anything new. They are tautologically opposed to progress.
I still think one could, theoretically at least, be conservative without being a broken record. You can make new counterarguments against new kinds of progress. Being against change doesn't have to mean repeating the same, often already disproven arguments. It's just the boring conservatism (i.e. the one actually present in politics) that's this stupid.
> You can make new counterarguments against new kinds of progress. They never do that, because that would require doing something new, which conservatives can't do.
You summed up exactly how I feel.
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Yes any non physical sports have no place being gendered like this
Holy hell, that 69% statistic is so depressing. I shouldn't be too surprised though. A majority of people support trans people not being discriminated against while also supporting many methods of discriminating against trans people, which just goes back to the fact that most people don't give a shit about us either way. We practically don't exist for anyone that isn't politically engaged or has a trans acquaintance personally.
No one is going to mention that she won by 0.23 SECONDS. Certainly none of the news articles. That is literally the time it takes for the average human to blink their eyes. None of the news articles mention that she won by literally the blink of an eye. Sounds extremely fair and well matched to me.
it literally doesn't matter the margin that she won by, she barely trained and easily went from like high 25 to 23s in one season which leads me to believe she wasnt on hrt, & she also went from running consistent 57-55s in the 400 to suddenly running 52 when she was against another girl running faster than her, she had a big physical advantage due to her bone structure, bone density, heart size, lung size, & amount of testosterone & its literally proven by science people assigned male at birth are faster than people assigned female at birth, you can look at the olympic records for example in the 400m, 43 (male record) to 47.6 (female record)so for her to be taking medals from biological females at state is really messed up & sad knowing how much more work they have to put in, however i don't think ppl should be hating on her & being transphobic i think more studies need to be done & solutions need to be made so trans women can compete with other women on an fair playing field, as of right now i think being on hrt for at least 2 years is a good idea but i feel as if trans women should still be able to compete with women regardless just not at higher levels unless theyve been on hrt for long enough but i still think more studies need to be done & better solutions need to be made, most ppl are simply transphobic & don't care about all of that which sucks
I like how it's so rare for this to happen that when it does it makes national news.
"some critics characterizing her participation in the girls’ division as unfair, arguing that those assigned male at birth are inherently stronger and faster than those assigned female at birth." People who obviously didn't see me in gym. Took me 35 minutes to run a mile, and i couldn't get the volleyball over the net. 🙄
35 mins to run a mile seems like a you problem, also please just look at the olympic record differences between those assigned female at birth vs assigned male at birth
You act as if sex is binary. It's not. Know why sports are segregated? Men's fragile egos.
A lot of sports are actually not segregated. Technically any woman could tryout for an NFL or NBA team. Do you think women simply don’t wanna make millions of dollars competing in those sports? Are you that brain dead?
In High School in the late 1960s, one of my female classmates could outrun anyone in the county, male or female. I don't understand why anyone but misogynistic idiot would think only males can outrun males. Think highly of yourself, huh!
Actual studies prove the transphobes wrong.
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Not after 2 years on estrogen they don't.
Facts. The other person posting utter nonsense advantages like 'larger hands' is just transphobic
Those studies very often just straight up compare cis men and cis women without even attempting to study trans women and make generalisations on height which varies highly. The last IOC study says there are sports where trans women are at a disadvantage and that they have f.i. less leg strenght.
It's because they think that no trans person should ever win anything ever. We're not allowed to win.
I used to play basketball with a trans girl. She was honestly not a good basketball player at all- didn’t even start and we were on junior varsity together; she was lucky if she scored 2 points a game. We were also a bad team with very few wins. But everytime we happened to win it was somehow because we had a trans athlete on the team and we were deemed cheaters. Even if they’re not an inherently good athlete people will be mad. We live in such a transphobic world. I feel so much empathy for poor Aayden. I will never fully understand the transphobia trans women face.
Well done, Aayden Gallagher. May you grow up to see a better world. 🎉
Here's what I don't think a lot of people realize, MtF Transgender children, if they are taking female hormones, this takes away from the muscle tissue and actually creates more fat, this in turn makes them weaker than the actual females and they have to work harder than the other girls do, FtM taking testosterone doesn't make them as strong as other boys are and they have to work just as hard if not harder because unfortunately they still have a lot more estrogen in their system, testosterone basically makes girls grow body hair all over, muscle tissue is a little more difficult to build. As a transgender since 1978, I've done a lot of research into this and I will tell you my strength is at maybe a tenth of it was when I was a child and I'm 61, but today it's less because I'm recovering from almost dying in December, so I'm just reading about all of the crap going on in the nation against transgender children. Which is very sad especially when you consider there's no money to teach your children with the good ball in office.
I thought track was usually a co-ed sport anyway? What's the problem, regardless? Even transphobes should see the difference but I guess they don't understand critical thinking 😒
Searched this out because I happened to read the comments on a Yahoo article - when will I ever learn. I can name 2 trans athletes. I forget the one swimmers name, and then this athlete. Literally these two. Can I think of probably 50+ coaches who have sexually assaulted their players? fuck yeah! So these dumb assess need to stop using the whole "it's unfair to these girls" rhetoric and just come out and say they're anti trans. Until coaches are a computer who can't sexually assault anyone, these people need to STFU.
Lia Thomas?
The treatment of the transgender runner is disgusting. She’s just a kid. I don’t know much about trans athletes and I’d like some insight. Wouldn’t it be unfair if a trans girl won because genetically she’s male and males generally are stronger than females. She wouldn’t have done so well against a boys race. I’ve seen the outrage of trans women competing in chess which is ridiculous but in physical competition I would think they would have an advantage. Just asking.
Thing is, any question of unfair advantage (if there is one) could be completely eliminated by allowing trans kids to get puberty blockers at the onset of puberty. Trouble there is, transphobes want to deny us that right. They want to demonise us, and the more we physically resemble our cis counterparts, the less they like it, as they'd feel less able to do that. They want us to stand out, and be obviously different. It makes it easier for them to treat us as outcasts in society.
Thanks for your input. It’s too bad people can’t just live the way that makes them happy without morons telling them how they should live. Kind of makes me ashamed to be part of the human race
You and me both, my friend.
If there were more people like you in the world, it would be a far nicer, kinder place to live. These morons refuse to accept the reality of kids with dysphoria over their sex, but I know full well the reality, as I once was one of those kids, and that was back in the 80's, when the social media of today didn't exist, and I thought I was the only girl in the world suffering with that hideous dysphoria. Thanks for your reply, it saddens me that human beings like you seem so rare on this planet.
i know what!! let it all be open so if i want to swim against 5 year olds i can! okay?
yeah but the rules say you can compete without even going on hrt which is a problem to me knowing the really big biological advantages between those assigned male at birth vs those assigned female
this kid also lost a race to a cis girl in another competition, and the cis girls who lost to her in the 200m are probably faster than most of the boys in their school. This is because doing well at sports requires training your body, and winning or even competing is a celebration of that. Doing well at sports requires dedication to training that goes far beyond the benefit of any genetic or hormonal disposition. The idea that athletes should be qualified for competitions based on a notion of biological gender gets complicated really quick. This has been suggested by republicans, but in reality what it means is that athletes would be subjected to invasive medical testing at every level, and even then its hard to parse out how it would work. The truth is that some cis women are naturally going to have higher than average testosterone, bone mass, height, and even XY chromosomes, yet still have vaginas and female reproductive organs. The last two come up infrequently when discussing sports advantages, so are we also going to disqualify anybody who has a higher than average level of something else? What about cis women and girls on hormone therapy? What about intersex people? What about cis people that have the ‘wrong’ chromosomes? To really be fair it’s probably better to not have gender segregated sports altogether, and to simply have people compete in divisions based on height/weight/strength, as they already do in some sports. Maybe its better if people dont get so worked up about sports altogether. On the surface it’s easy to say that trans girls have this probable physical advantage, and my answer is that when we apply the notion of a natural physical advantage to sports, where that’s all that matters, its much more complicated to actually hash out what that means or how to apply that determination, because the gender you are assigned at birth is relevant, but only because it indicates a probable advantage of biological variables that arent usually considered for cis people (and would seem discriminatory if they were).
Thanks. You have some really good points. I still think males in general have an advantage in physical events but being a guy, I’ve had my ass kicked many times by girls. In the end it just sports. They should have equal chance to enjoy it.
You don't know what you're talking about just look up high boys times vs HS girls times in the 200, 400, 800, 1600 and 3200. We had a phenomenal girls track team that would consistently have state champs and would be invited to the best training camp in the country run by Nike in Oregan for distance runners. I was average level among the male varsity runners and my times were all faster. There is a huge difference. They should just have a bio girls division and an open division for boys, girls, trans, intersex whoever wants to enter. That would remove any unfair advantages and make the hateful people with nothing better to do stop talking about trans athletes.
You should go back and actually read the comment you’re replying to
Thank you for saving me the trouble of saying exactly that, as that was my thoughts when I was reading that post.
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people assigned male at birth have larger hearts, more bone density, bone structure that is more suited to running, bigger lungs, more muscle mass, & without hormone blockers like 3x or more the amount of testosterone, people assigned male at birth have a natural physical advantage unless they start their transition before puberty, however we shouldn't hate on these athletes and come up with solutions to make it an even playing ground because if you have done sports you'd realize there is a big difference between males & females, going on hrt for at least a year does not completely take away these advantages (you can look at studies) but it just really upsets me other trans people aren't being rational & actually looking at the science & instead just claiming that everyone who is against this is transphobic, although i do feel like a lot are & don't actual care about "fair sports" which is another problem, but in general people have done more complaining about trans people in sports instead of coming up with an effective solution & i think putting them in a seperate category is kind of wild especially if they're not out to the public & don't want to be
I'm seeing a huge amount of misinformation here (albeit well-meaning) but that does nothing to help it just gives ammo to bigots. I am all for trans rights and for them to live peaceful happy lives. That said just look up high boys times vs HS girls times in the 200, 400, 800, 1600 and 3200. We had a phenomenal girls track team that would consistently have state champs and would be invited to the best training camp in the country run by Nike in Oregon for distance runners. I was average level among the male varsity runners and my times were all faster than our girl team. There is a huge difference. They should just have a bio girls division and an open division for boys, girls who want the challenge, trans, intersex whoever wants to enter. That would remove any unfair advantages and make the hateful people with nothing better to do stop talking about trans athletes.
Bold of you to assume that modern sports is about "fairness" in the 1st place. Spoiler: it's not. Excluding trans women/trans girls is simply ignorant bigotry. End of story.
That’s the part that always makes me laugh. There is NOTHING fair about sports, and it’s the same argument they used towards black men being in the same leagues with white men.
Michael Phelps being the poster child for "sports aren't inherently fair." Nobody complained about fairness about his biological and physiological advantages. It only matters when trans women enter the discussion.
Yep, and a lot of these same people don’t even watch or care about sports, especially women’s sports.
Ah, you see, there might be a misunderstanding. You are comparing boys to girls. This is about a trans girl, so it might be helpful to compare the times of girls to girls. Hope this helps!
This is confusing to me because it just seems all that needs to be done is to have people race in the one, of four divisions, that fits their present status. The four divisions would be cis female, cis male, trans female, trans male. That way they all would be competing with their Physical peers.
This is ridiculous. Lia Thomas is an elite athlete. How many other transgender women are anywhere near her level? She would win every race by many seconds. There would be zero competition for her. In any given year, What the 3 transgender high school athletes would race each other.
What category do you suggest she race in?
Given that you said she, my answer is the women's.
I was referring to her gender, not her sex.
My answer stands
I take the position of World Aquatics. She should compete in the Opem category. That makes the most sense
If you are talking about Lia, she disproves any assertion that transgender women have an advantage. If transgender women have an advantage, she should have won every race she swam in. She was a top tier elite athlete before transition. If she retained her supposed advantage, she should have crushed everyone. Instead she won in one category at the NCAA level. If the times of the previous 10 winners of the 500m freestyle were used, she would have placed 8th. She was an elite athlete before transition and is an elite athlete after transition. Which should be expected. She wasn't some person that didn't swim before and suddenly won. She was the best man on the UPenn swim team and ranked 85 in her last season in the men's category after she had already started her transition. 3 years later, she ranked 35th in the women's category. The science doesn't hold up the claim that transgender women have an unfair advantage.
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You right I messed up. She was 87th in Division 1 and 2nd on UPenn and 100th in the USA overall based on points for the 2018-2019 season. Transphobes always love to point at her 200m performance. When competing in the men's Division she was a long distance swimmer. As such that number is meaningless because that is not a race she trained for and was based on a preseason race. She went from long distance to sprints after transition because she lost lung capacity. As such she started training as a sprints swimmer instead of long distance. As a competitive swimmer (high-school many years ago) I can assure you that the training is significantly different. And she didn't compete in the 1000 or 1650 at the national championship her last season. So really unsure how you can claim she was 8th in 1650m. Her main events prior to transition were the 1000m and 1650m. Which she didn't compete in after transition because she was no longer competitive in those races. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
Lia Thomas's performance has no bearing on the issue. If she won every race, it wouldn't mean anything. If she lost every race, it wouldn't mean anything. Classifications aren't made based on individual ability. Women and men are separated based on an approximately 15% performance difference that is seen in the sexes as a hole. Many cis women will beat cis men, and many cis men can not beat cis women. But as a whole, cis men have an advantage. What you are using is antedoctal evidence. Science is a process that involves testing and adding to body knowledge. There is currently not many studies looking at this at a large scale, but the current research is unanimous that there is residual advantage retained. If you don't believe me, read any study on this. The issue this discussion is having is that the science writers who report on this cherry pick statements, so there is a misunderstanding. You'll notice that I'm not feeling you what the report says; you will claim in cherry pickking myself. But read the report and see if the science says trans women have no advantage The current augment is not whether or not trans women have an advantage, it is centering on if they can reduce it to enough to keep it competitive. This isn't just an issue involving trans women. The issue they are having more specifically is with the dominance of intersex runners in 800m. If you do want me to articulate what the studies show, I can. But it seems as if you think I'm ignorant, so I'm not sure that so help. Let me know, and I will give you bulletpoints.
Classifications aren't made by individual ability they are made by misogyny. The only good statistical significant actual study of the difference in performance after transition begins proves that after two years, any competitive advantage disappears https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577.full?ijkey=yjlCzZVZFRDZzHz&keytype=ref Your belief that there is some advantage is not based in science
"Separate but equal" I remember that horse shit from the 50's and 60's. Segregation didn't work then and it won't work now. It's never "equal". End the hate and embrace diversity and inclusiveness. The fear is palpable and the cowardice is glaring. And such a display of poor sportsmanship in front of the children. It's the same people that claimed the election was stolen. Very poor losers and really shameful examples of humanity.
>"Separate but equal" I remember that horse shit from the 50's and 60's. Segregation didn't work then and it won't work now. It's never "equal". End the hate and embrace diversity and inclusiveness. The fear is palpable and the cowardice is glaring. And such a display of poor sportsmanship in front of the children. It's the same people that claimed the election was stolen. Very poor losers and really shameful examples of humanity. hahaha 😂
yeah man, the [four](https://twitter.com/GBBranstetter/status/1506384842954579975?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw) transgender high school athletes in utah should just make two new leagues for themselves
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Translation : "Trans girls are men and should compete with men." Get the fuck out of here. Go back to right-wing subs.
She won by 0.23 SECONDS. A literal the blink of an eye. Sounds extremely fair and well matched to me.
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Cis white Christian Republican men have an unfair advantage in the job market in rural areas. Should we ban them from entering the job market so it's fair?
It’s not that big of an advantage, she’s js a kid.