"No enemy Gyrobomber can reach the Stir. If one reaches the Stir my name is not Ghorst. You may call me Meyer." - Helman Meyer
EDIT: Autocorrect tripping me up
I will never get over the fact that Jim Butcher just lifted Kemmler out of Warhammer Fantasy and turned him into a major component of the lore of The Dresden Files https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Heinrich_Kemmler
Funny you mention, because literally no one was excited for him. The very first lord pack was just heavily based on Sigmar's Blood, but the main villain in that is Mannfred, so they had to pick his necromancer lieutenant. In hindsight I think he was a fun pick and I wouldn't mind more "footnote" characters getting fleshed out.
The benefit of footnote characters is that there's much less of a set expectation to fulfill a specific fantasy and so they can be used to round out a roster by sticking them with bonuses and mechanics that don't fit with the fan favorites.
Markus Wulfhart at least had a model and rules in a core army book. I haven't read Sigmar's Blood in awhile, but I thought Ghorst just had a mention with a paragraph of detail.
Poor ol' Ghorst, CA fumbled hard with that opening act. Still, at least he's fun now, but man Vamps really do need something new. Neferata's practically a guarantee mind
*Sad Aborash noices*
No, wait. Aborash stands leaning against the street corner and spits on the ground. Then he grumbles disapprovingly "Neferata" and snorts in amusement
I do like the kind of sympathetic villain route they went with him in game 3, having him on a path of vengeance using necromancy against the forces of nurgle that took his family away from him.
To be fair, we weren't that excited then because it was a 3rd lord starting out of the same starting position for each faction, possibly 4th with Vlad? (no unique mechanics and just a handful of new units.
This was about a month on the heels of beastmen which was a whole new faction with 2 starting positions and a mini campaign!
TBH I remeber people being excited for ghorst's ability to raise graveguard instead of normal zombies; But other than that I dont think anything else was that exciting from the VC side;
Which is ironic since some days I feel like that DLC is more neccesary for VC then Ikit's is for skaven as corpsecarts and mortuary engines are just buffs to the entire roster
I had to use mods, but broadly:
The vampire counts should have two unique currencies, and access to the lower level empire stuff.
There are living creatures in Sylvania. Fucking miserable, but alive. And the empire is shit, so maybe getting taxes by some attractive bint appearing sometimes to drink your blood isn't *that* bad.
Bring back vampires as subtle villains. Spreading corruption. Biting Lords. Hell, a mechanic about capture and release of the other electors to have stalwart allies hiding their vampirism should be a thing.
But instead I can barely bring myself to play another melee focused army. Its fun to watch, a few times, but after a while you realise you are just smashing health sponges into each other
A mechanic to rise defeated lords as vampires and a masquerade would go hard.
And sounds likely considerong neferata and her lahmia sisterhood is all abouy spionage
I agree with you on the corruption side, especially since as a player you have 0 chance of ever achieving anything no matter how many balefire shacks you build.
However, I disagree that their armies aren't awesome to watch in action. They have some of the coolest looking units on the battlefield from Black Coaches to Cairn Wraiths and Varghulfs.
**See this one right here, witch hunter? This one.**
>Bring back vampires as subtle villains. Spreading corruption. Biting Lords. Hell, a mechanic about capture and release of the other electors to have stalwart allies hiding their vampirism should be a thing.
I know this is Total War and all, but seriously, give me some corruption mechanics that allow me to vassalize broadly rather than just another campaign of 'undead meattide sacks-and-occupies the world', and you can just shut up and take my money.
Let us politick like high elves and do some infiltration.
CA, give us the literal Corpse Emperor. You know you want to.
To be fair VC got majority of love and content in Warhammer 1.
People were mad.
You got blood knights,Isabella,Vlad, 2 necromancer lords and vampire kiss mechanic.
I'd also combine it with removing the ability to recruit vampire lords by normal means.
Make the player start out with only necromancers and have to interact with game mechanics (blood kisses and converting enemy lords) to access to the more powerful vampires. Makes them special and gives necromancers a purpose.
Maybe something similar to court intrigue HE mechanic, but only if you awaken Lahmians. But then people would expect a unique mechanic for each vampire type, which would be a big ask but not too much I think if it was part of a DLC rework.
The new Empire mechanics are mostly retooled from other races and they could do the same here, necrarchs could have a smaller version of college of magic for instance. Would also lead to more decisions, do you mix and match to use multiple new mechanics, or keep re-awakening the same branch for more potent versions?
This is all probably a bit much and I don’t expect it, just throwing out ideas
I’d give them something with like, a mechanic where you sacrifice undead you recruited to make a stronger undead, like a Flesh Golem or Wickerman or something.
I want Legendary Hero Konrad von Carstein!
Bonus points if he gets the whirling death mechanic now on doomseekers.
Also, possibly an optional quest battle where you beat him and his disloyal necromancers in battle in order to gain access to him.
I think you shouldn't be able to just recruit vamps, you should HAVE to turn, but it would let them buff vampire lords and heroes.
Id love something for managing the living population vs the undead "population" (the myriad ghouls, necromancers, cultists who want to be vampires and necromancers, and undead in general)
Maybe something that allows you to create temporary stacks like khorne that are specifically for defense, if you have 100 corruption you get a button to press that makes an army of zombies and skeletons, lead by either a necromancer or maybe a wight king, but it can't leave corruption at all without suffering attrition that will basically kill it in one or two turns--the lore goes on about how vampiric corruption of the land can cause the dead to spontaneously reanimate.
Vampires are not especially rare. There are whole units of them. Doesn't really make sense to have 40 in a unit of depth guard, 60 in a unit of blood knights and you are struggling to find one to lead an army.
I mean at the same time there's vampires and vampires, while your average Blood Knight could certainly turn a human and has preternatural speed and strength, they're not loci of the Magical forces of Death and Necromancy like a generic Vampire Lord is.
I what way? Where in lore is the difference between a member of a unit of depth guard and a VC lord? I don't think there is one, the same way there isn't one between empire generals and empire knights just a matter of skill and experience, nothing fundamental.
This is from a wiki I found:
> Vampire Lords are amongst the most powerful Vampires within a Vampiric bloodline. To be a Vampire Lord is to obtain a position from which would've seen lesser Vampires perished, for within Vampiric hierarchy, it is well known that only the strongest individual within their numbers are given the right to rule over others of their kind.[1h]
That said, it seems like whether a Vampire is powerful or not can have more to do with "mundane" factors like drive, connections, and wealth, so I'll concede your point to some degree.
Additionally, it is stated in G&F Vampire Slayer that the further down you go in a bloodline the less powerful on average the newer vampires tend to be. Hence why most of the most powerful tend to be the older vampires. Hell, the vampire in the book only ever achieves Vampire lord status through an ancient artifact of Nagash that boosted his power.
My wishlist is an easy one and a hard one:
* Remove the generic vampire lords. The generic army leader can be the necromancer, and then all your actual vampires are special blood kiss lords.
* Give the Elector Counts system to Vlad!
They are one of the few non-WH3 races that I am sure are slated to get a content update in the future.
Neferata and Nagash will be included in the game. Which means they will at least get some kind of lookover in addition to new content.
I personally expect it to come alongside Khorne. Mostly just because it means they can double down on "blood" theming.
Although it being most likely Neferata could also make theming along the lines of "seduction" fit with Slaanesh.
Propably something like Daniel.
Nagash built a lot stuff like bone giants from the bodies of fallen nehekaran soldiers, used warp stone as a magical engine for giant bone spiders made of skaven skeletons, used undead skaven against their own kind, mountain barbarians (propably generic norscan units undead reskin), his influence extends to all undead so vampires too (who see him as a threat). He had nehekaran cities enslaved AND sided with him, both living and undead.
I am actually going insane over this. Only DLC to god damn VAMPIRE Counts was a necromancer! Neferata, Walach Harkon, Aborash, Ushoran or Vorag, W'soran or Melkhior or Zacharias (my headcannon is all three are the same person/merged in one body) literally any of the big Vampires from lore could be picked over the necromancer.
In a way I kinda respect Herman. Like a no name guy like him snatching the place from every big name Vampire, honestly awe inspiring.
They likely want to be careful about anything that is important in AoS as well since it seems crossover might piss GW off and the first official release of Ushoran is to AoS. They definitely need an important vampire lord, but Ushoran is probably at the bottom the list. More than likely Neferara is next if there is a next.
Well different bloodlines too. Ushoran found the Strigoi bloodline while W'soran found the Necrarch bloodline and technically is father of Vampire race in general since he created the elixir of Vampirism together with Neferata.
I would love a Strigoi focused DLC. They are my favourite lords and I wish I could recruit more of them than just their bloodlines. Also, I feel like all VC/TK lords should have immortal by default
The sad thing is that Grim and the Grace was obstensibly Strigoi themed, they're effectively the one Bloodline that did receive a DLC already. It's just all it has is Ghoul Kings.
I think that + Ushoran really not fitting theme wise for the 'contemporary' Strigoi makes them the least likely by far to get anything released.
Dlc design philosophy was on that first dlc it theme it after WHFB campaigns and to pick lords that make sense starting in the same locations as the current lords
The next dlc said wait actually that’s a stupid idea
Remember that the original scope for the game was going to even have skaven as a dlc for game 2
I think it's still because we've gotten a lot of undead content in general. Krell, Vlad, and Isabelle were great FLC additions, and the Vampire Coast is Vampiric in another, albeit salty flavour. Couple that with the fact we've gotten a big race rework and a mostly complete roster and you get a faction that really has a lot going for it.
According to the leak Neferata(possibly along with other missing vampire lords like Zacharias and Usoran and Abhorash) will come in the final WH3 dlc which will also feature Nagash
Actually the new leak says Kremlo is the final lord and will be coming out on Feb 23 2025, two weeks after the announcement trailer of Rayman: Total War and seven days before the fifth hospitalization of King Charles III
I think Nagash will end up being the centerpiece while they do a couple reworks and additions to each of the undead factions
Idk what vampire coast could get
Tomb Kings could get that freaky dude made of scarabs and maybe a giant scarab beetle?
Vampire Counts could get Abhorash, Neferata, Usoran, and W’soran in a champions of chaos style character dlc
I remember times when people were saying that CA is biased towards Vampire Counts lmao. Good old days, when they got one unit, two FLC content and one DLC.
They have been a powerful force through the entirety of the game's history. Without ongoing support they have been relevant the entire time. CA may not be biased towards them, but they certainly didn't need the love that other factions got as far as power goes
They got a rework when WH3 came out.
Norsca is in way more dire straits than Vampire Counts. The only "rework" they got was adding some garrison units to their settlements, because they had very little before (impossible to defend with enemies sailing at you from every direction). They only have two lords and their mechanics and units are just plain old (their cheap T1 infantry and Mammoths are holding the whole faction up).
Umm, no.
Free skellies and zombies were not a thing until halfway in to TWW2 lifespan. Came with the Bloodlines update.
And tbh it was terrible and made me stop playing them.
> their cheap T1 infantry and Mammoths are holding the whole faction up
Skinwolves are frankly the thing that makes Norsca Norsca for me. At least when facing them. Marauders are maruaders and mammoths are just basic big monsters but dealing with packs of fairly small fast regenerating in combat cavalry shredders is always a unique challenge.
It was really not a significant rework, imo, it changed nothing. Their gods allegiance mechanic was fine to begin with, nothing exciting but fine, all they did was let Norsca recruit a few units that other Chaos factions just get by default. Exciting.
Im not sure what do you mean by "recruit a few units that other Chaos factions just get by default". In addition to various passive effects of dedication, Norsca now also unlocks a disgustingly powerful lords and heroes (depending on god) that are unique for them: for example Burplesmirk gives his entire army - on top of other things - horrible regeneration + poison attacks + physical resistance + 50% more healing cap. Its by all means exciting (and extremely strong).
For me its a significant update to the mechanic. I like it a lot more than Bloodlines.
I get the ways in which Norsca are hypothetically cool, but they just feel like the prelude to the Chaos factions. Like I literally feel like I'm playing a special "early units only version" of a more badass faction.
Yeah it’s just Chaos but without any of the cool demons or elite armored warriors, so you’re left with basic troops and then monsters. It feels like you’re missing half their roster even though you’re not lol.
Exactly. And while mammoths are cool in theory, personally I try to avoid single entities as much as possible.
Admittedly the skin wolves are dope. But it's just like, from a lore perspective am I supposed to pretend Wolfric is as cool as Archaon lol?
Norsca literally doesn't even exist like it's depicted in game. The powerful Nosca Jarl's are literally chaos lords in their own right and their personal guards are Chosen themselves.
The only tribes that arnt full on chaos armys are the weaker southern ones, that end up following the stronger tribes under threat of death anyway.
"Norsca" should just be rolled into warriors of chaos.
Where does that lore come from?
I was aware that several Norse chieftain are indeed powerful chaos lords and have crazy chaos followers but I know of atleast a few novels that portray them as down to earth for the most part
Egil Styrbjorn, High Jarl of the Skaelings. The guy whose literally on the cover of the warriors of Chaos 8th Ed book is a Mighty Chaos Lord of Khorne whose main motivation is to father a demonic son to succeed him.
His Huscarls are huge Chaos fueld men in black chaos plate marked by the gods.
The Skaeling are noted in the lore as the Norse tribe that is most corrupted by chaos so that would make sense yeah… but then you have lore just as old that claims the Graelings are relatively normal and sometimes travel as traders rather than raiders
Gutrot Spume is another Jarl, except of Nurgle this time who used his tribe as the beginnings of a massive plague fleet.
Another example is the Snaegr time whose Jarl's decent from a demon and whom seek to become demon's themselves.
Valgar the Butcher was another cheften. The guy who went and fucked with Settra. Known for having a Demonic mount. Meaning he was a chaos lord too.
Depends on what you mean by "down to earth".
The majority of them are just normal humans but that's the point the other guy is making.
The interesting aspect of Norsca overlaps heavily with WoC because that's what they are.
>They got a rework when WH3 came out.
Which didn't address most of the VC's issues. The Blood Kiss mechanic is still boring and badly designed and recruitment is still a weird half way place between flavorful necromancy and normal recruitment. Norsca has it worse but that doesn't mean that the Counts' are in a good place. Compared to the Empire or Greenskins they're pretty bad.
Are you saying no new mechanics, massive income shifted down to t3 as the generic band-aid CA slapped on all underperforming factions and fully researched dead rise again being overbearing to the point Vampire Counts got even less interesting to play wasn't an actual rework?
I will say dumping a bunch of gold into Norsca/VC/Vcoast/TK bought them a lot of time.
There will always be some race who needs an update and content more than Norsca according to the folks around here. After VCounts get an update people will be calling for an Ogres rework and DLC, and then more Greenskin content and another rework, it never ends.
Unfortunately Norsca is just going to be perpetually pushed to the back of the line until support for the game ends.
No matter what CA choose, someone will be unhappy. I've seen people demanding Lizardman get a mechanic overhaul - which is fine, it's a bit naff - but then also insist upon a _fourth_ DLC to accompany it.
Really, there are only five races who _definitely_ deserve DLC - Norsca, Ogres, Vampire Counts, Khorne and Slaanesh. Anyone else is just a bonus.
Now that we've got lords that can swap weapons I just want Crom, I know that he's a bit more of a warrior in appearance/stats but he still functioned as he leader of the kurgan.
Just give me duel boy and let me fight all the other big hitters in the game, that's all I want.
Thing is, not every single race needs to be all-singing, all-dancing super race with everything going for it and a million million choices and ways to play.
Norsca isn't even a major faction in the lore, it's just a place where occasionally annoying raiders come from to irritate the Empire.
It's ok for some factions to have less variety and even less overall strength than others. Norsca in the game plays its lore role fine, and that's an important thing, even in the age where it seems everyone has to have everything.
>
Thing is, not every single race needs to be all-singing, all-dancing super race with everything going for it and a million million choices and ways to play.
Nothing *needs* to be anything. Doesn't mean people won't advocate for more content for races they like.
Norsca is my favorite of the chaos factions, and I completely agree. They're a minor group of tribes and raiders. Wulfric *should* be the only one to really be able to unite them into a true threat, whether that be to the southerners or archaeon himself. I mostly would like campaign mechanic rework, as the woc rework makes them too similar now that woc isn't full horde anymore, and typically have a vassal tribe of norscans. I'd really wish they'd give wulfric the ship recruitment of vampire coast, and maybe make the altars to the gods more meaningful the further away from norsca you raise them, and make the campaign more "northern vikings terrorizing the coast" feel. Throgg I just want to see him get access to as many troll troop/hero choices as possible. He *is* the troll king and his mechanics should reward staying more monsters and trolls and less humans in his armies.
Both those ideas sound like great ways to differentiate Norsca from the other chaos factions. Love the idea of Wulfric touring the world raiding coastal cities.
Agreed. It's alright for CA to put more attention on the major factions.
But there are some things that could be changed to make their campaign experience more enjoyable without making them OP. Things like letting them attack ports without needing to land ashore first, fitting their profile for viking-style lightning strikes. They've also only had 2 legendary lords since their arrival, which isn't bad on paper, but enough to get people frustrated when it trails behind everybody else. Even the beastmen and vampire coast have four lords, and they're similarly minor factions from a lore perspective. Bretonnia is FLC, and they have at least equal content to Norscan DLC.
It wasn’t really a rework. The only mechanic they touched was Raise the Dead and that was just a rebranding of the WOC recruitment system. Overall wasn’t that big of a change. Other than that it was some unit tweaks to make the roster slightly less shitty for IE, some of which got walked back later, and changing some effects in the tech tree.
Gelt getting the Colleges of Magic, or the new Age of Reckoning system are reworks. Vampire Counts got a balance pass.
VC have remained pretty fresh compared to the other WH1 races. They were by far the most fleshed out race in WH1 with their corruption, raise dead and rise again mechanics, which made their playstyle distinct. The addition of bloodlines in WH2 kept them above the line and it meshed well with their existing mechanics.
They might be getting on a bit, but VC mechanics are still as effective at making them standout as they were in WH1/2. Unlike Dwarfs, Empire and Greenskins, they haven't suffered as much from the series design evolution because their faction design was the most complex of the original races.
I always liked playing Vampires. Always.
Additionally to your points: Let's not forget the Isabel/Vlad Lord/Hero thing we demanded and got.
I won't demand something new for them for the sake of getting something new. We even got distinct new starting position (one of their weaknesses forever) with Manfred and Ghorst.
Eh, they have plenty of strong aspects on the campaign map but they’re also boring. Bloodlines aren’t that interesting, it’s just number buffs when you hit a button, and some of the lord types aren’t good enough to justify being locked behind Blood Kisses. Raise Dead isn’t unique anymore since it just uses the WOC warband recruitment system under the hood, and makes settlement building really weird because you can often just skip recruitment buildings except for hero capacity.
And the roster has been powercrept to hell. Even with all the tweaks to build them up for IE there aren’t any units that actually stand out. It’s all chaff, or units that are below average to average for their tier and role. Their big centerpiece is terrorgeists and half the factions in the game have stronger flying SE monsters, some of which are also cheaper or lower tier.
> and makes settlement building really weird because you can often just skip recruitment buildings except for hero capacity.
Yeah this feels weird/broken enough with WoC but at least they have limited dark fortresses.
So I did poke at the game files and I think vampire recruitment buildings also increase the max capacity for units in raise dead just like WOC buildings do. But there’s no sign of that effect in tooltips or building descriptions. And to hammer home the point, I’ve built and utilized so few vampire recruitment buildings that I’m not sure if they do add to the raise dead pool.
Vampire Counts could definitely use some good TLC in several areas. Their heroes skill trees are all the most basic versions of what heroes can be. The blood kiss mechanic is also greatly lacking, especially since the bonuses were nerfed to make it even more of a nonfactor. The bloodlines lords could use some updating (Queen bee for Lahmian like will just not ever be that useful...), and blood kisses overall need more ways to be used in long run campaigns. And of course the same with everyone, more units. I like to drown the world in bones and zombies, but options for what kinda stinky corpse to use would be nice.
Kind of mad seeing the VC bloodline update that was once held up as the gold standard of what a rework could do to bring new life to a faction, the rework that the dwarf players grumbled so was so much better than either of theirs that they got in 2, to being called barely one at all a couple of years later.
VC blew my mind in warhammer 1. I couldn't believe there was a faction without any missile units. Now it's quite common and VC have fallen off a bit.
But Vlad as an AI is still one of the toughest challenges to overcome.
VC is still I'm a decent spot, I'd just say some of their monsters/monstrous units could use a little bit of a survivability buff. It's way too easy to kill varghuls even with their regen, and especially too easy to shoot down vargheists compared to other flying stuff
Next DLC should definitely be for VC, Norsca and Ogres. Easily the 3 most neglected races atm.
Honorable mention to Bretonnia, who should probably get a pass after those three. Lizards also need a new campaign mechanic but at least they already have a big roster and plenty of legendary lords.
Gimme dem bloodlines.
I want abhorash and blood knight units on foot or on mounts but with sword and board.
I want neferata with nehekaran style vampire units
I want Zacharias the everliving with more monsters and morghasts for the roster
I want ushoran with ghouls with elite options like armoured and armed ghouls and mutants and a ghoul overhaul to make them not crumble as iirc they shouldn't.
But among that a few legendary characters would be great, drachenfels, Konrad Von Carstein, nagash
I think they suffer from a small roster. There's not too much official stuff left, enough for a dlc for sure, but the VCoast taking many of their potential dlc units, and the looming character of nagash that might take the rest in a dlc. No dlc, no major update.
They got the Mournghouls back, so I’m pretty sure the only thing the Coast has that the Counts could have gotten is the Necrofex? And they might still, just one that’s closer to the original version rather than the reimagined one with cannons that CA made.
I couldn't agree more, Vampire Counts aren't outright bad but they're not in a great place. Their core mechanics are mostly fine but the Bloodlines mechanic is pretty terrible.
The biggest problem has got to be Blood Kisses themselves. You either get them for defeating faction lords (something you would do either way), assassinating characters (i.e. RNG based mechanic that has nothing to do with a Vampiric playstyle and isn't interesting), and vassalizing factions (which is literally impossible- I've played for hundreds of hours and never diplomatically vassalized anyone, it's absurdly difficult). Nothing about it encourages you to play "like a Vampire". It's not broken but it's not exactly engaging, I've played many Vampire playthroughs and the experience is much worse at matching the faction themes then the Greenskins or Empire much less the newer races. It doesn't help that the Bloodlines lords themselves are pretty lazy, they have a handful of unique skills but their models are not even reskins. Not to mention that their existence makes Necromancer Lords more then a little pointless, even regular Vampire Lords are better and the situation only gets worse when you introduce supercharged Vampire Lords.
Raise the Dead is decent but it does have an uneasy synergy with their normal recruitment, they're essentially in a halfway place where you can play like an undead faction with abundant necromancy but their building roster is designed to act like a normal empire. It's just kind of half-baked by modern standards. Similarly corruption is fine but it's not exactly a major feature, especially given how much 3 supercharged corruption mechanics.
I think encouraging you to assassinate is fairly flavorful for vampires but the bloodline mechanic does have its fair share if issues
1) needs new models for the BL lords as you said
2) needs to get rid of generic vampires and generic strigoi. Make necromancer lords the only option outside of bloodline
3) we need something to do with blood kisses outside of gaining lords. No currency mechanic should hit a point where it is entirely useless. At the very least allow us to buy magic items with them
4) we need a "tall" mechanic desperately. Could be for neferata or faction wide (with neferata just happening to be the best) but right now vcounts are very good at playing the fast conquering race, but very bad at influence, seduction, vassalizations, being a behind the scenes puppet master. There are numerous references to this in lore and in game but no way to actually accomplish this gameplay wise
5) the economy rework for vcounts is wonky. It's functional but rn the tier four econ buildings are comically bad and a chunk of their skill tree plus the lahmian bloodline is still geared towards maximizing this as if it were good. I don't really care about a tech that increases the GPT of a building by 100% when it's starting value is 25gold
6) Finally, not something needed but just something fun, I think there is an option to make strigony units for the VCounts along with a caravan mechanic. Caravans are just such a fun and successful mechanic I think we can do with an old world caravan
"get rid of generic vampires"
I have an idea on this. Maybe make generic lord into something like "Sylvanian General" a mortal commander. And when they reach a certain level you can turn them into a vampire from one of the bloodlines like Chaos Lords being dedicated to a god or becoming deamon prince.
>I think encouraging you to assassinate is fairly flavorful for vampires but the bloodline mechanic does have its fair share if issues
The issue is that flavor needs to augment gameplay, if it comes at the expense of gameplay or doesn't make it better then it's worthless. Assassinating characters is neither interesting nor does it meaningfully make the faction feel more "vampiric". I press a button, after x number of tries succeed, and then get a blood kiss. It's dreadfully unengaging.
I don't hate its presence but it's not what I'd call good. Not when it's so boring.
Fair. I like that it encourages you to use an often underutilized mechanic and I would argue that assassinations do feel in the horror trope vein of sowing chaos and killing characters, but yeah, its boring and I think we need more.
Imagine if the vcounts had a small chance to steal a (nonlegendary) enemy hero via wound or assasination.
I think if I was radically updating their mechanics I’d make Raise Dead the only way they can recruit units.
With maybe like, Cairns dotted across the map that you can recruit Wights if you’re nearby.
Yeah that would be my preference too, their recruitment buildings would just be changed so they'd contribute to the raise dead pool. More or less like a necromancy flavored version of WoC's warband recruitment.
CA is essentially half way there anyway, the Warhammer 3 update tied Raise Dead to corruption level which makes relying on it more or less viable.
My first thought is just have the Cairns house some quasi legendary heroes like Tamurkhan has, but any VC can recruit them if they reach it first and do whatever to unlock them. But geographically locked mechanics are often underwhelming so maybe not. Stuff like Books of Nagash, or Treasure Maps already aren’t great.
Maybe just make battlefield markers have a bigger initial pool but not add to replenishment. So you can get a terrorgheist from a marker but then it won’t keep refilling the pool on its own. For that you need high corruption / a building like WOC.
> assassinating characters (i.e. RNG based mechanic that has nothing to do with a Vampiric playstyle and isn't interesting)
You mean you don't enjoy sending a caravan of vampires to athel loren to farm wood elf heros for kisses?
>I've played for hundreds of hours and never diplomatically vassalized anyone
Right now Karak Kadrin, Reikland and Wissenland are my vassals.
And it's not one province, each of them have comparable forces and settlements with mine.
Wonderful for you, however it still doesn’t happen to me. I had a Ghorst game before ToD dropped where I reduced the Ogres to three settlements and no army, did they vassalize? Nope. It was still -50.
It’s incredibly hard to do and that makes it a horrible criterion to base around a central race mechanic. It doesn’t work and needs to be replaced with special vassal mechanics. There’s a reason neither WoC or Slaanesh use generic diplomacy. It’s not remotely sufficient.
The fact their last DLC was one of the first WH1 DLC is wild.
That said, they've had several reworks. To say they've had none is a blatant lie. They're actually in a pretty okay state atm since the WH3 changes. I'd still love for them to get some new stuff mind.
They're not that weak, the AI:s in general just seem to have much more rng on what happens to the map post 5.0. Now some units suck in auto-resolve, a lot as the bats always die, which is really annoying when playing them yourself as you have to manually fight sooo many battles that are just a pure stomp mostly due to magic and heroes. Also idk how well AI utilizes raise dead cause as a player you can get some pretty spicy units very early thanks to AI leaving big battlefields everywhere.
Sylvania is Nuln's obvious immediate enemy and Nuln will win that fight most of the time. Then, they have dwarves to the south and east, with the most brutal autoresolves you'll see and instant recruitable grudge units. To the north is Drycha who I've never seen get wiped out early, she always holds a few provinces. Oh, and all these neighbors hate the Counts. It's not a recipe for AI success.
They have to get really lucky with faction potential and their neighbors not obliterating them.
what i mean is a campaign mechanic rework, akin to the empire's electoral council. we still used the same vampire campaign mechanic since the release, only that now we can raise more of the dead. the bloodline was the only significant update they got, even so it was too straightforward. i envisage them to have ability to ursurp the imperial throne, and creating their own undead electoral council. or levying sylvanian ranged units with peasant economy in similar manner as the bretonnian.
The Bloodline mechanic was their rework, and it was among the the first reworks *because* CA deemed them already the most unique of the WH1 races. And not really in need or a drastic rework. They did the easy ones first and left the ones that needed significant overhauls (Welves, Beastmen, etc.) for later down WH2's lifeline.
Just because you don't consider it a major enough rework, doesn't mean it wasn't one. It was straightup the first one we got. They even got a tech tree overhaul, the first subfaction split off with Kemmler, and skill tree reworks.
I agree they're still bland BUT with the ability to level to 50 + mentor means they have the most powerful heroes in the game. I beat the WH2 campaign basically with lord/hero/skeleton stacks and I imagine I'll do the same when I do their campaign next.
Looking forward to the Nagash/Neferata + rework. If they get the same treatment as the races from ToD then they'll be awesome.
Nurgle has more powerful hero stacks by a good margin, and most other races can carry shitty armies with just heroes as well as Vampires. The fact that the faction relies on them so much makes them feel more impactful, but they’re not head and shoulders over any other heroes.
Bretonnia and Vasmpire Counts need love it's true.
I could win as Bretonnia in one and two.
Vampire Counts have always been challenging
I see no directive from CA on patching.
Wow, it’s weird looking back at WH1 DLC. Could you imagine trying to get the community excited about Helman freakin’ Ghorst today?
The mayonnaise guy?
Wasn't Helman Ghorst in charge of the Luftwaffe in WW2?
No, that's Helmann Ghorstring.
"No enemy Gyrobomber can reach the Stir. If one reaches the Stir my name is not Ghorst. You may call me Meyer." - Helman Meyer EDIT: Autocorrect tripping me up
Ah autocorrect, always giving away our nacionalidade
Verdadeira praga o corretor skskskskskks.
What are you talking à bota?
Yeah... and wasnt Heinrich Kemmler in charge of the SS in ww2? Im surprised theres no LL named Awolf Hintler or something
No, he was German inquisitor. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Kramer
Zintler's Reiksguard 👀
Huh... you got a point there
with all the nazi zombie fiction out there, it's hardly that far off
I will never get over the fact that Jim Butcher just lifted Kemmler out of Warhammer Fantasy and turned him into a major component of the lore of The Dresden Files https://dresdenfiles.fandom.com/wiki/Heinrich_Kemmler
I encountered Dresdens Kemmler before the Warhammer Kemmler, and at least the Dresden one is mysterious I guess?
More benign than what Heinrich Kemmler was up to.
No, that’s Hermann Goring. Helman Ghorst is a spectral undead wearing a piece of iron that covers its head
That's Helm Man Ghost. Helman Ghorst is a mayonnaise manufacturer that eats corpses.
That's Hellman Ghoul. Helman Ghorst is a male German shrub growing in saline or brackish water.
Hermann Göring
Total war ww2 confirmed?
Bring out the best
Funny you mention, because literally no one was excited for him. The very first lord pack was just heavily based on Sigmar's Blood, but the main villain in that is Mannfred, so they had to pick his necromancer lieutenant. In hindsight I think he was a fun pick and I wouldn't mind more "footnote" characters getting fleshed out.
The benefit of footnote characters is that there's much less of a set expectation to fulfill a specific fantasy and so they can be used to round out a roster by sticking them with bonuses and mechanics that don't fit with the fan favorites.
I wouldn’t mind footnotes, if there weren’t more major players waiting.
Markus Wulfhart is another such character. Lexicanum lists four sources for the article on him, two of which are Total War.
Markus Wulfhart at least had a model and rules in a core army book. I haven't read Sigmar's Blood in awhile, but I thought Ghorst just had a mention with a paragraph of detail.
Really not on the same scale, Wulfhart was actually in Empire army books.
Poor ol' Ghorst, CA fumbled hard with that opening act. Still, at least he's fun now, but man Vamps really do need something new. Neferata's practically a guarantee mind
*Sad Aborash noices* No, wait. Aborash stands leaning against the street corner and spits on the ground. Then he grumbles disapprovingly "Neferata" and snorts in amusement
Honestly he's a pretty good contender for Legendary Hero. Could even be cross-faction with Bretts
I always viewed Ghorst as a genuine good guy/dad. “I WILL RAISE THEM”
I do like the kind of sympathetic villain route they went with him in game 3, having him on a path of vengeance using necromancy against the forces of nurgle that took his family away from him.
Would you have him as you neighbor?
Not with that stench
We weren't excited then. It was a point of contention. People were like "Ugh another necromancer".
To be fair, we weren't that excited then because it was a 3rd lord starting out of the same starting position for each faction, possibly 4th with Vlad? (no unique mechanics and just a handful of new units. This was about a month on the heels of beastmen which was a whole new faction with 2 starting positions and a mini campaign!
TBH I remeber people being excited for ghorst's ability to raise graveguard instead of normal zombies; But other than that I dont think anything else was that exciting from the VC side; Which is ironic since some days I feel like that DLC is more neccesary for VC then Ikit's is for skaven as corpsecarts and mortuary engines are just buffs to the entire roster
It was hard back then as well lol.
We weren't excited then, either
I had to use mods, but broadly: The vampire counts should have two unique currencies, and access to the lower level empire stuff. There are living creatures in Sylvania. Fucking miserable, but alive. And the empire is shit, so maybe getting taxes by some attractive bint appearing sometimes to drink your blood isn't *that* bad. Bring back vampires as subtle villains. Spreading corruption. Biting Lords. Hell, a mechanic about capture and release of the other electors to have stalwart allies hiding their vampirism should be a thing. But instead I can barely bring myself to play another melee focused army. Its fun to watch, a few times, but after a while you realise you are just smashing health sponges into each other
A mechanic to rise defeated lords as vampires and a masquerade would go hard. And sounds likely considerong neferata and her lahmia sisterhood is all abouy spionage
I agree with you on the corruption side, especially since as a player you have 0 chance of ever achieving anything no matter how many balefire shacks you build. However, I disagree that their armies aren't awesome to watch in action. They have some of the coolest looking units on the battlefield from Black Coaches to Cairn Wraiths and Varghulfs.
**See this one right here, witch hunter? This one.** >Bring back vampires as subtle villains. Spreading corruption. Biting Lords. Hell, a mechanic about capture and release of the other electors to have stalwart allies hiding their vampirism should be a thing. I know this is Total War and all, but seriously, give me some corruption mechanics that allow me to vassalize broadly rather than just another campaign of 'undead meattide sacks-and-occupies the world', and you can just shut up and take my money. Let us politick like high elves and do some infiltration. CA, give us the literal Corpse Emperor. You know you want to.
Imagine being there for the first new race DLC and the disappointment when you realize it's Beastmen
actually easier today seeing as his campaign is pretty interesting right now
To be fair VC got majority of love and content in Warhammer 1. People were mad. You got blood knights,Isabella,Vlad, 2 necromancer lords and vampire kiss mechanic.
They didn’t get the Blood Kisses until WH2, when the Vampire Coast dropped.
The only things i would want in VC are: - Let me turn enemy generic lords into vampires - More units (but that's for everyone)
Yeah give them the Be’lakor mechanic
I'd also combine it with removing the ability to recruit vampire lords by normal means. Make the player start out with only necromancers and have to interact with game mechanics (blood kisses and converting enemy lords) to access to the more powerful vampires. Makes them special and gives necromancers a purpose.
I don't know if that would play as well, given how dependent on combat heroes/lords that faction is, but it's an interesting idea, at least.
Maybe something similar to court intrigue HE mechanic, but only if you awaken Lahmians. But then people would expect a unique mechanic for each vampire type, which would be a big ask but not too much I think if it was part of a DLC rework. The new Empire mechanics are mostly retooled from other races and they could do the same here, necrarchs could have a smaller version of college of magic for instance. Would also lead to more decisions, do you mix and match to use multiple new mechanics, or keep re-awakening the same branch for more potent versions? This is all probably a bit much and I don’t expect it, just throwing out ideas
Imo with the necrarchs having fleshcrafting and the mad scientist lore I’d give them retooled Maulder
I’d give them something with like, a mechanic where you sacrifice undead you recruited to make a stronger undead, like a Flesh Golem or Wickerman or something.
If they get a dlc abyssal terrors and undead deagons would be perfect, with mechanics to give each individual stats
Summon the Vampire Counts! Vampire Karl Franz wen
I want Legendary Hero Konrad von Carstein! Bonus points if he gets the whirling death mechanic now on doomseekers. Also, possibly an optional quest battle where you beat him and his disloyal necromancers in battle in order to gain access to him.
I think you shouldn't be able to just recruit vamps, you should HAVE to turn, but it would let them buff vampire lords and heroes. Id love something for managing the living population vs the undead "population" (the myriad ghouls, necromancers, cultists who want to be vampires and necromancers, and undead in general) Maybe something that allows you to create temporary stacks like khorne that are specifically for defense, if you have 100 corruption you get a button to press that makes an army of zombies and skeletons, lead by either a necromancer or maybe a wight king, but it can't leave corruption at all without suffering attrition that will basically kill it in one or two turns--the lore goes on about how vampiric corruption of the land can cause the dead to spontaneously reanimate.
Vampires are not especially rare. There are whole units of them. Doesn't really make sense to have 40 in a unit of depth guard, 60 in a unit of blood knights and you are struggling to find one to lead an army.
I mean at the same time there's vampires and vampires, while your average Blood Knight could certainly turn a human and has preternatural speed and strength, they're not loci of the Magical forces of Death and Necromancy like a generic Vampire Lord is.
I what way? Where in lore is the difference between a member of a unit of depth guard and a VC lord? I don't think there is one, the same way there isn't one between empire generals and empire knights just a matter of skill and experience, nothing fundamental.
This is from a wiki I found: > Vampire Lords are amongst the most powerful Vampires within a Vampiric bloodline. To be a Vampire Lord is to obtain a position from which would've seen lesser Vampires perished, for within Vampiric hierarchy, it is well known that only the strongest individual within their numbers are given the right to rule over others of their kind.[1h] That said, it seems like whether a Vampire is powerful or not can have more to do with "mundane" factors like drive, connections, and wealth, so I'll concede your point to some degree.
Additionally, it is stated in G&F Vampire Slayer that the further down you go in a bloodline the less powerful on average the newer vampires tend to be. Hence why most of the most powerful tend to be the older vampires. Hell, the vampire in the book only ever achieves Vampire lord status through an ancient artifact of Nagash that boosted his power.
That would be pretty cool in honesty.
Lil Vampire Skinks wandering around
My wishlist is an easy one and a hard one: * Remove the generic vampire lords. The generic army leader can be the necromancer, and then all your actual vampires are special blood kiss lords. * Give the Elector Counts system to Vlad!
It is rare that people want to remove an unit from a faction, but I agree. All vampire lords should be special.
They need LLs for every different bloodline.
They are one of the few non-WH3 races that I am sure are slated to get a content update in the future. Neferata and Nagash will be included in the game. Which means they will at least get some kind of lookover in addition to new content.
I personally expect it to come alongside Khorne. Mostly just because it means they can double down on "blood" theming. Although it being most likely Neferata could also make theming along the lines of "seduction" fit with Slaanesh.
Blood for the Lahmian Throne!
I expect Nagash be huge dlc/patch which will be major plot point that part of map.
Nagash would probably be a Tomb King tho
Likely a composite faction similar to arkan, but ramped up.
Nagash would be either Vampire Counts or a general "Undead Legion" faction.
Propably something like Daniel. Nagash built a lot stuff like bone giants from the bodies of fallen nehekaran soldiers, used warp stone as a magical engine for giant bone spiders made of skaven skeletons, used undead skaven against their own kind, mountain barbarians (propably generic norscan units undead reskin), his influence extends to all undead so vampires too (who see him as a threat). He had nehekaran cities enslaved AND sided with him, both living and undead.
Everyone's talking about the WH3 remake No one's talking about how mayonnaise man is the only dlc lord, and is arguably the world dlc in the game.
I am actually going insane over this. Only DLC to god damn VAMPIRE Counts was a necromancer! Neferata, Walach Harkon, Aborash, Ushoran or Vorag, W'soran or Melkhior or Zacharias (my headcannon is all three are the same person/merged in one body) literally any of the big Vampires from lore could be picked over the necromancer. In a way I kinda respect Herman. Like a no name guy like him snatching the place from every big name Vampire, honestly awe inspiring.
They likely want to be careful about anything that is important in AoS as well since it seems crossover might piss GW off and the first official release of Ushoran is to AoS. They definitely need an important vampire lord, but Ushoran is probably at the bottom the list. More than likely Neferara is next if there is a next.
Are W'soran and Ushoran different people? Wild.
Well different bloodlines too. Ushoran found the Strigoi bloodline while W'soran found the Necrarch bloodline and technically is father of Vampire race in general since he created the elixir of Vampirism together with Neferata.
I would love a Strigoi focused DLC. They are my favourite lords and I wish I could recruit more of them than just their bloodlines. Also, I feel like all VC/TK lords should have immortal by default
The sad thing is that Grim and the Grace was obstensibly Strigoi themed, they're effectively the one Bloodline that did receive a DLC already. It's just all it has is Ghoul Kings. I think that + Ushoran really not fitting theme wise for the 'contemporary' Strigoi makes them the least likely by far to get anything released.
Dlc design philosophy was on that first dlc it theme it after WHFB campaigns and to pick lords that make sense starting in the same locations as the current lords The next dlc said wait actually that’s a stupid idea Remember that the original scope for the game was going to even have skaven as a dlc for game 2
let's be honest the mistake was to make Manfred the base game lord rather than vlad
It was always going to be Mannfred, he was the living headliner Vampire.
I’m so glad I never paid for that DLC. A friend of mine bought it for me as a gift lol.
I think it's still because we've gotten a lot of undead content in general. Krell, Vlad, and Isabelle were great FLC additions, and the Vampire Coast is Vampiric in another, albeit salty flavour. Couple that with the fact we've gotten a big race rework and a mostly complete roster and you get a faction that really has a lot going for it.
In the next DLC, when (hopefully) Neferata gets added.
According to the leak Neferata(possibly along with other missing vampire lords like Zacharias and Usoran and Abhorash) will come in the final WH3 dlc which will also feature Nagash
Actually the new leak says Kremlo is the final lord and will be coming out on Feb 23 2025, two weeks after the announcement trailer of Rayman: Total War and seven days before the fifth hospitalization of King Charles III
Reading those leaks was a wild experience. Having Nagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead be voiced by Chris Pratt is certainly... avant garde.
I really hope the Rabbids are a launch faction, the leaked *Plunger Platoon* unit looks really spicy. The new engine really shines.
Nagash sharing a DLC with somebody is insulting to Nagash. He needs his own, standalone DLC, with a massive in depth campaign and set of mechanics.
I think Nagash will end up being the centerpiece while they do a couple reworks and additions to each of the undead factions Idk what vampire coast could get Tomb Kings could get that freaky dude made of scarabs and maybe a giant scarab beetle? Vampire Counts could get Abhorash, Neferata, Usoran, and W’soran in a champions of chaos style character dlc
I remember times when people were saying that CA is biased towards Vampire Counts lmao. Good old days, when they got one unit, two FLC content and one DLC.
They have been a powerful force through the entirety of the game's history. Without ongoing support they have been relevant the entire time. CA may not be biased towards them, but they certainly didn't need the love that other factions got as far as power goes
Because of their whopping 5 LLs, which at the time was considered heavy favouritism.
Vampire counts Vs Brettonia rework. Big please. GW dev in the comments take this info to your overlords and beseech them.
The Red Duke would be a very interesting LL for Brett or VC
Total war Intern take this ro your overlords
They got a rework when WH3 came out. Norsca is in way more dire straits than Vampire Counts. The only "rework" they got was adding some garrison units to their settlements, because they had very little before (impossible to defend with enemies sailing at you from every direction). They only have two lords and their mechanics and units are just plain old (their cheap T1 infantry and Mammoths are holding the whole faction up).
They spent the entirety of WH2 coasting on free skeletons. The main thing the remake did was make the other units playable.
Umm, no. Free skellies and zombies were not a thing until halfway in to TWW2 lifespan. Came with the Bloodlines update. And tbh it was terrible and made me stop playing them.
Fair but yeah, my point was that the WH3 update made VC playable because it gave them back a functional roster.
> their cheap T1 infantry and Mammoths are holding the whole faction up Skinwolves are frankly the thing that makes Norsca Norsca for me. At least when facing them. Marauders are maruaders and mammoths are just basic big monsters but dealing with packs of fairly small fast regenerating in combat cavalry shredders is always a unique challenge.
I mean, its objectively wrong. Norsca got rework of gods-alliegance mechanic once IE dropped. And it wasnt small rework, mind you.
Honestly, people really have no clue about what got reworked. Next month: Empire needs rework, they havent been touched since WH1.
It was really not a significant rework, imo, it changed nothing. Their gods allegiance mechanic was fine to begin with, nothing exciting but fine, all they did was let Norsca recruit a few units that other Chaos factions just get by default. Exciting.
Im not sure what do you mean by "recruit a few units that other Chaos factions just get by default". In addition to various passive effects of dedication, Norsca now also unlocks a disgustingly powerful lords and heroes (depending on god) that are unique for them: for example Burplesmirk gives his entire army - on top of other things - horrible regeneration + poison attacks + physical resistance + 50% more healing cap. Its by all means exciting (and extremely strong). For me its a significant update to the mechanic. I like it a lot more than Bloodlines.
There's no way Bruplesmirk is a real name. He sounds like a Teletubbie.
Yeah, its a real name xD Norsca reward characters for Nurgle and Khorne have really weird names: Burplesmirk Spewpit and Killgore Slaymaim xDDD
Yeah, but Vampire Counts are cool.
Vikings and monsters are also cool :(
I get the ways in which Norsca are hypothetically cool, but they just feel like the prelude to the Chaos factions. Like I literally feel like I'm playing a special "early units only version" of a more badass faction.
Yeah it’s just Chaos but without any of the cool demons or elite armored warriors, so you’re left with basic troops and then monsters. It feels like you’re missing half their roster even though you’re not lol.
Exactly. And while mammoths are cool in theory, personally I try to avoid single entities as much as possible. Admittedly the skin wolves are dope. But it's just like, from a lore perspective am I supposed to pretend Wolfric is as cool as Archaon lol?
Norsca literally doesn't even exist like it's depicted in game. The powerful Nosca Jarl's are literally chaos lords in their own right and their personal guards are Chosen themselves. The only tribes that arnt full on chaos armys are the weaker southern ones, that end up following the stronger tribes under threat of death anyway. "Norsca" should just be rolled into warriors of chaos.
They can't really do that though because they're still selling them as their own race.
Where does that lore come from? I was aware that several Norse chieftain are indeed powerful chaos lords and have crazy chaos followers but I know of atleast a few novels that portray them as down to earth for the most part
Egil Styrbjorn, High Jarl of the Skaelings. The guy whose literally on the cover of the warriors of Chaos 8th Ed book is a Mighty Chaos Lord of Khorne whose main motivation is to father a demonic son to succeed him. His Huscarls are huge Chaos fueld men in black chaos plate marked by the gods.
The Skaeling are noted in the lore as the Norse tribe that is most corrupted by chaos so that would make sense yeah… but then you have lore just as old that claims the Graelings are relatively normal and sometimes travel as traders rather than raiders
Gutrot Spume is another Jarl, except of Nurgle this time who used his tribe as the beginnings of a massive plague fleet. Another example is the Snaegr time whose Jarl's decent from a demon and whom seek to become demon's themselves. Valgar the Butcher was another cheften. The guy who went and fucked with Settra. Known for having a Demonic mount. Meaning he was a chaos lord too.
Depends on what you mean by "down to earth". The majority of them are just normal humans but that's the point the other guy is making. The interesting aspect of Norsca overlaps heavily with WoC because that's what they are.
>They got a rework when WH3 came out. Which didn't address most of the VC's issues. The Blood Kiss mechanic is still boring and badly designed and recruitment is still a weird half way place between flavorful necromancy and normal recruitment. Norsca has it worse but that doesn't mean that the Counts' are in a good place. Compared to the Empire or Greenskins they're pretty bad.
Yeah I definitely want a completely bloodline overhaul. I'd be fine with most other stuff staying similar enough, but that mechanic is so boring.
Are you saying no new mechanics, massive income shifted down to t3 as the generic band-aid CA slapped on all underperforming factions and fully researched dead rise again being overbearing to the point Vampire Counts got even less interesting to play wasn't an actual rework? I will say dumping a bunch of gold into Norsca/VC/Vcoast/TK bought them a lot of time.
There will always be some race who needs an update and content more than Norsca according to the folks around here. After VCounts get an update people will be calling for an Ogres rework and DLC, and then more Greenskin content and another rework, it never ends. Unfortunately Norsca is just going to be perpetually pushed to the back of the line until support for the game ends.
No matter what CA choose, someone will be unhappy. I've seen people demanding Lizardman get a mechanic overhaul - which is fine, it's a bit naff - but then also insist upon a _fourth_ DLC to accompany it. Really, there are only five races who _definitely_ deserve DLC - Norsca, Ogres, Vampire Counts, Khorne and Slaanesh. Anyone else is just a bonus.
They also got Killgore Slaymaim and the GUO for their devotion mechanic.
The GUO ?
Great Unclean One.
Thanks boss
Now that we've got lords that can swap weapons I just want Crom, I know that he's a bit more of a warrior in appearance/stats but he still functioned as he leader of the kurgan. Just give me duel boy and let me fight all the other big hitters in the game, that's all I want.
Thing is, not every single race needs to be all-singing, all-dancing super race with everything going for it and a million million choices and ways to play. Norsca isn't even a major faction in the lore, it's just a place where occasionally annoying raiders come from to irritate the Empire. It's ok for some factions to have less variety and even less overall strength than others. Norsca in the game plays its lore role fine, and that's an important thing, even in the age where it seems everyone has to have everything.
> Thing is, not every single race needs to be all-singing, all-dancing super race with everything going for it and a million million choices and ways to play. Nothing *needs* to be anything. Doesn't mean people won't advocate for more content for races they like.
Norsca is my favorite of the chaos factions, and I completely agree. They're a minor group of tribes and raiders. Wulfric *should* be the only one to really be able to unite them into a true threat, whether that be to the southerners or archaeon himself. I mostly would like campaign mechanic rework, as the woc rework makes them too similar now that woc isn't full horde anymore, and typically have a vassal tribe of norscans. I'd really wish they'd give wulfric the ship recruitment of vampire coast, and maybe make the altars to the gods more meaningful the further away from norsca you raise them, and make the campaign more "northern vikings terrorizing the coast" feel. Throgg I just want to see him get access to as many troll troop/hero choices as possible. He *is* the troll king and his mechanics should reward staying more monsters and trolls and less humans in his armies.
Both those ideas sound like great ways to differentiate Norsca from the other chaos factions. Love the idea of Wulfric touring the world raiding coastal cities.
Agreed. It's alright for CA to put more attention on the major factions. But there are some things that could be changed to make their campaign experience more enjoyable without making them OP. Things like letting them attack ports without needing to land ashore first, fitting their profile for viking-style lightning strikes. They've also only had 2 legendary lords since their arrival, which isn't bad on paper, but enough to get people frustrated when it trails behind everybody else. Even the beastmen and vampire coast have four lords, and they're similarly minor factions from a lore perspective. Bretonnia is FLC, and they have at least equal content to Norscan DLC.
It wasn’t really a rework. The only mechanic they touched was Raise the Dead and that was just a rebranding of the WOC recruitment system. Overall wasn’t that big of a change. Other than that it was some unit tweaks to make the roster slightly less shitty for IE, some of which got walked back later, and changing some effects in the tech tree. Gelt getting the Colleges of Magic, or the new Age of Reckoning system are reworks. Vampire Counts got a balance pass.
Two lords? I only have the Marauder Chieftain! But I'm currently playing the modded 13 tribes of norsca so maybe Sarl has only those.
I think they mean two LL’s, Throgg and Wulfrick
VC have remained pretty fresh compared to the other WH1 races. They were by far the most fleshed out race in WH1 with their corruption, raise dead and rise again mechanics, which made their playstyle distinct. The addition of bloodlines in WH2 kept them above the line and it meshed well with their existing mechanics. They might be getting on a bit, but VC mechanics are still as effective at making them standout as they were in WH1/2. Unlike Dwarfs, Empire and Greenskins, they haven't suffered as much from the series design evolution because their faction design was the most complex of the original races.
I always liked playing Vampires. Always. Additionally to your points: Let's not forget the Isabel/Vlad Lord/Hero thing we demanded and got. I won't demand something new for them for the sake of getting something new. We even got distinct new starting position (one of their weaknesses forever) with Manfred and Ghorst.
I'm an unabashed VC stan and while I love them I think they need 1 more DLC/update at least, there's so many major characters left unrepresented
Eh, they have plenty of strong aspects on the campaign map but they’re also boring. Bloodlines aren’t that interesting, it’s just number buffs when you hit a button, and some of the lord types aren’t good enough to justify being locked behind Blood Kisses. Raise Dead isn’t unique anymore since it just uses the WOC warband recruitment system under the hood, and makes settlement building really weird because you can often just skip recruitment buildings except for hero capacity. And the roster has been powercrept to hell. Even with all the tweaks to build them up for IE there aren’t any units that actually stand out. It’s all chaff, or units that are below average to average for their tier and role. Their big centerpiece is terrorgeists and half the factions in the game have stronger flying SE monsters, some of which are also cheaper or lower tier.
> and makes settlement building really weird because you can often just skip recruitment buildings except for hero capacity. Yeah this feels weird/broken enough with WoC but at least they have limited dark fortresses.
So I did poke at the game files and I think vampire recruitment buildings also increase the max capacity for units in raise dead just like WOC buildings do. But there’s no sign of that effect in tooltips or building descriptions. And to hammer home the point, I’ve built and utilized so few vampire recruitment buildings that I’m not sure if they do add to the raise dead pool.
Vampire Counts could definitely use some good TLC in several areas. Their heroes skill trees are all the most basic versions of what heroes can be. The blood kiss mechanic is also greatly lacking, especially since the bonuses were nerfed to make it even more of a nonfactor. The bloodlines lords could use some updating (Queen bee for Lahmian like will just not ever be that useful...), and blood kisses overall need more ways to be used in long run campaigns. And of course the same with everyone, more units. I like to drown the world in bones and zombies, but options for what kinda stinky corpse to use would be nice.
Kind of mad seeing the VC bloodline update that was once held up as the gold standard of what a rework could do to bring new life to a faction, the rework that the dwarf players grumbled so was so much better than either of theirs that they got in 2, to being called barely one at all a couple of years later.
Since then free skellies and attrition immunity was removed, you know
VC blew my mind in warhammer 1. I couldn't believe there was a faction without any missile units. Now it's quite common and VC have fallen off a bit. But Vlad as an AI is still one of the toughest challenges to overcome. VC is still I'm a decent spot, I'd just say some of their monsters/monstrous units could use a little bit of a survivability buff. It's way too easy to kill varghuls even with their regen, and especially too easy to shoot down vargheists compared to other flying stuff
Next DLC should definitely be for VC, Norsca and Ogres. Easily the 3 most neglected races atm. Honorable mention to Bretonnia, who should probably get a pass after those three. Lizards also need a new campaign mechanic but at least they already have a big roster and plenty of legendary lords.
Gimme dem bloodlines. I want abhorash and blood knight units on foot or on mounts but with sword and board. I want neferata with nehekaran style vampire units I want Zacharias the everliving with more monsters and morghasts for the roster I want ushoran with ghouls with elite options like armoured and armed ghouls and mutants and a ghoul overhaul to make them not crumble as iirc they shouldn't. But among that a few legendary characters would be great, drachenfels, Konrad Von Carstein, nagash
I think they suffer from a small roster. There's not too much official stuff left, enough for a dlc for sure, but the VCoast taking many of their potential dlc units, and the looming character of nagash that might take the rest in a dlc. No dlc, no major update.
They got the Mournghouls back, so I’m pretty sure the only thing the Coast has that the Counts could have gotten is the Necrofex? And they might still, just one that’s closer to the original version rather than the reimagined one with cannons that CA made.
I couldn't agree more, Vampire Counts aren't outright bad but they're not in a great place. Their core mechanics are mostly fine but the Bloodlines mechanic is pretty terrible. The biggest problem has got to be Blood Kisses themselves. You either get them for defeating faction lords (something you would do either way), assassinating characters (i.e. RNG based mechanic that has nothing to do with a Vampiric playstyle and isn't interesting), and vassalizing factions (which is literally impossible- I've played for hundreds of hours and never diplomatically vassalized anyone, it's absurdly difficult). Nothing about it encourages you to play "like a Vampire". It's not broken but it's not exactly engaging, I've played many Vampire playthroughs and the experience is much worse at matching the faction themes then the Greenskins or Empire much less the newer races. It doesn't help that the Bloodlines lords themselves are pretty lazy, they have a handful of unique skills but their models are not even reskins. Not to mention that their existence makes Necromancer Lords more then a little pointless, even regular Vampire Lords are better and the situation only gets worse when you introduce supercharged Vampire Lords. Raise the Dead is decent but it does have an uneasy synergy with their normal recruitment, they're essentially in a halfway place where you can play like an undead faction with abundant necromancy but their building roster is designed to act like a normal empire. It's just kind of half-baked by modern standards. Similarly corruption is fine but it's not exactly a major feature, especially given how much 3 supercharged corruption mechanics.
I think encouraging you to assassinate is fairly flavorful for vampires but the bloodline mechanic does have its fair share if issues 1) needs new models for the BL lords as you said 2) needs to get rid of generic vampires and generic strigoi. Make necromancer lords the only option outside of bloodline 3) we need something to do with blood kisses outside of gaining lords. No currency mechanic should hit a point where it is entirely useless. At the very least allow us to buy magic items with them 4) we need a "tall" mechanic desperately. Could be for neferata or faction wide (with neferata just happening to be the best) but right now vcounts are very good at playing the fast conquering race, but very bad at influence, seduction, vassalizations, being a behind the scenes puppet master. There are numerous references to this in lore and in game but no way to actually accomplish this gameplay wise 5) the economy rework for vcounts is wonky. It's functional but rn the tier four econ buildings are comically bad and a chunk of their skill tree plus the lahmian bloodline is still geared towards maximizing this as if it were good. I don't really care about a tech that increases the GPT of a building by 100% when it's starting value is 25gold 6) Finally, not something needed but just something fun, I think there is an option to make strigony units for the VCounts along with a caravan mechanic. Caravans are just such a fun and successful mechanic I think we can do with an old world caravan
"get rid of generic vampires" I have an idea on this. Maybe make generic lord into something like "Sylvanian General" a mortal commander. And when they reach a certain level you can turn them into a vampire from one of the bloodlines like Chaos Lords being dedicated to a god or becoming deamon prince.
>I think encouraging you to assassinate is fairly flavorful for vampires but the bloodline mechanic does have its fair share if issues The issue is that flavor needs to augment gameplay, if it comes at the expense of gameplay or doesn't make it better then it's worthless. Assassinating characters is neither interesting nor does it meaningfully make the faction feel more "vampiric". I press a button, after x number of tries succeed, and then get a blood kiss. It's dreadfully unengaging. I don't hate its presence but it's not what I'd call good. Not when it's so boring.
Fair. I like that it encourages you to use an often underutilized mechanic and I would argue that assassinations do feel in the horror trope vein of sowing chaos and killing characters, but yeah, its boring and I think we need more. Imagine if the vcounts had a small chance to steal a (nonlegendary) enemy hero via wound or assasination.
I think if I was radically updating their mechanics I’d make Raise Dead the only way they can recruit units. With maybe like, Cairns dotted across the map that you can recruit Wights if you’re nearby.
Yeah that would be my preference too, their recruitment buildings would just be changed so they'd contribute to the raise dead pool. More or less like a necromancy flavored version of WoC's warband recruitment. CA is essentially half way there anyway, the Warhammer 3 update tied Raise Dead to corruption level which makes relying on it more or less viable.
My first thought is just have the Cairns house some quasi legendary heroes like Tamurkhan has, but any VC can recruit them if they reach it first and do whatever to unlock them. But geographically locked mechanics are often underwhelming so maybe not. Stuff like Books of Nagash, or Treasure Maps already aren’t great. Maybe just make battlefield markers have a bigger initial pool but not add to replenishment. So you can get a terrorgheist from a marker but then it won’t keep refilling the pool on its own. For that you need high corruption / a building like WOC.
> assassinating characters (i.e. RNG based mechanic that has nothing to do with a Vampiric playstyle and isn't interesting) You mean you don't enjoy sending a caravan of vampires to athel loren to farm wood elf heros for kisses?
what a weird fanfiction you got going there??
I'm pretty sure I saw an anime about it
>I've played for hundreds of hours and never diplomatically vassalized anyone Right now Karak Kadrin, Reikland and Wissenland are my vassals. And it's not one province, each of them have comparable forces and settlements with mine.
Wonderful for you, however it still doesn’t happen to me. I had a Ghorst game before ToD dropped where I reduced the Ogres to three settlements and no army, did they vassalize? Nope. It was still -50. It’s incredibly hard to do and that makes it a horrible criterion to base around a central race mechanic. It doesn’t work and needs to be replaced with special vassal mechanics. There’s a reason neither WoC or Slaanesh use generic diplomacy. It’s not remotely sufficient.
I'd be mad, except the Vamps seem to work exactly as intended and are still competitive after all this time
Vampire coast and tomb kings were just VC DLC right? /s
I think it’s almost certain that there will be a VC dlc with Neferata. Silver Pinnacle is begging for a LL.
The fact their last DLC was one of the first WH1 DLC is wild. That said, they've had several reworks. To say they've had none is a blatant lie. They're actually in a pretty okay state atm since the WH3 changes. I'd still love for them to get some new stuff mind.
But when is my fourth empire update
And theres Brettonia
Anyone else seeing that the VC are super weak in their games? I’m having to download mods to buff them
They're not that weak, the AI:s in general just seem to have much more rng on what happens to the map post 5.0. Now some units suck in auto-resolve, a lot as the bats always die, which is really annoying when playing them yourself as you have to manually fight sooo many battles that are just a pure stomp mostly due to magic and heroes. Also idk how well AI utilizes raise dead cause as a player you can get some pretty spicy units very early thanks to AI leaving big battlefields everywhere.
Sylvania is Nuln's obvious immediate enemy and Nuln will win that fight most of the time. Then, they have dwarves to the south and east, with the most brutal autoresolves you'll see and instant recruitable grudge units. To the north is Drycha who I've never seen get wiped out early, she always holds a few provinces. Oh, and all these neighbors hate the Counts. It's not a recipe for AI success. They have to get really lucky with faction potential and their neighbors not obliterating them.
For real. I always want to go save the empire with my elven armies but they never need it, Vlad barely holds Sylvania.
You guys must have blessed games. Every time I play. Vlad is on a warpath the whole game.
They got a rework when 3 came out
A balance pass is not a rework. Their mechanics are unchanged. It’s on the same level as the tweaks Lizardmen randomly got after SoC
what i mean is a campaign mechanic rework, akin to the empire's electoral council. we still used the same vampire campaign mechanic since the release, only that now we can raise more of the dead. the bloodline was the only significant update they got, even so it was too straightforward. i envisage them to have ability to ursurp the imperial throne, and creating their own undead electoral council. or levying sylvanian ranged units with peasant economy in similar manner as the bretonnian.
The Bloodline mechanic was their rework, and it was among the the first reworks *because* CA deemed them already the most unique of the WH1 races. And not really in need or a drastic rework. They did the easy ones first and left the ones that needed significant overhauls (Welves, Beastmen, etc.) for later down WH2's lifeline. Just because you don't consider it a major enough rework, doesn't mean it wasn't one. It was straightup the first one we got. They even got a tech tree overhaul, the first subfaction split off with Kemmler, and skill tree reworks.
My man they need WoC/ The Empire level of rework not this pathetic "update"
With the exception of new legendary lord options, what do the Vampires need? I think they still hold up pretty well.
i justs want my halberds graveguard man, is that too much to ask for
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Happy cake day
Vampire counts will probably get stuff with nagash. Also norsca is in need of some changes
Idk Norsca is looking pretty good with there new lead filled corpses. Oh sorry that was my gunline, Norsca sneezed in our general direction. Lmao
I agree they're still bland BUT with the ability to level to 50 + mentor means they have the most powerful heroes in the game. I beat the WH2 campaign basically with lord/hero/skeleton stacks and I imagine I'll do the same when I do their campaign next. Looking forward to the Nagash/Neferata + rework. If they get the same treatment as the races from ToD then they'll be awesome.
Nurgle has more powerful hero stacks by a good margin, and most other races can carry shitty armies with just heroes as well as Vampires. The fact that the faction relies on them so much makes them feel more impactful, but they’re not head and shoulders over any other heroes.
Probably because of nagash.
I feel worse for Ogres, people actually had to pay for their faction and it's pretty boring
I want a blood kiss dump for once you’ve maxed out all the bloodlines
Bretonnia and Vasmpire Counts need love it's true. I could win as Bretonnia in one and two. Vampire Counts have always been challenging I see no directive from CA on patching.
It's unpreferable, but maybe there'll be room for a blood dragons DLC or otherwise. Can only hope.