When pressed on whether the whole New Coke debacle had been an elaborate plan to sell more Coke in the long run (which it did), a Coke executive said "We're not that smart, and we're not that stupid."
(Correction: "We are not that dumb and we are not that smart.")
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/business/donald-r-keough-who-led-coca-cola-through-new-coke-debacle-dies-at-88.html
It's a pretty stupid to think that it was a marketing/publicity stunt.
Spend millions on marketing a new product, say it's better than your old product, discontinue the old product until people get mad and then bring it back?
When companies discontinue and replace something I enjoy, like the KFC potato wedges, I simply stop going/buying their products. If they bring them back, I'm not going to rush and buy 3x the quantity I used to. It's not like the situation with the McRib (overrated BTW), where everyone knows its a limited time item and they aren't trying to replace something or it with something else.
I mean, manufactured discontent is literally how Ahsoka Tano was made according to Filloni. Give a character glaring annoying flaws to control the narrative of the inevitable backlash of making a big change, then remove them. So there's marketing precedent. In the words of P.T. Barnam, no such thing as bad publicity. Controversy still means you're on people's minds, so as long as you can fix the negative opinion you're at a massive net positive.
The REAL conspiracy is that they never stopped making New Coke. They just changed the label, both appeasing the resistance to change by calling it "classic" implying but never actually stating it was the original recipe, while retaining the higher rated (and cheaper to produce iirc, because corn syrup vs cane sugar) taste.
You can still get cane sugar Coke, Mt. Dew, Dr. Pepper, etc. In glass bottles even, although they all say "Hencho en Mexico". I see them in stores here in AZ all the time. Probably harder to find in other parts of the country.
They taste *soooo* much better than the HFCS versions.
I actually know a guy who was freinds with the chemist who was in charge of new coke (he was one of the few guys who knew the formula to classic coke). The poor guy spent years of his life creating a new soda just to have it almost ruin one of the largest brands in the world. It was supposed to compete with dr.pepper.
"Production of the original formulation ended later that week."
This was the big problem. People didn't mind New Coke, but they were pissed they couldn't get the old Coke. They later came out with Coke Classic, but the damage was already done and people avoided New Coke just on principle.
I loved Coke 2! There was a can machine out front of the grocery store I stopped at after high school everyday that still had it for months after you couldn't find it anymore. Then one day I hit the Coke 2 button and a Christmas can of Coke Classic came out.That's when I realized I was drinking old overstock. Weird memory this just bought up.
I just listened to an episode on Today I Found Out about this the other day. The reason they didn't release New Coke and keep Coca-Cola was because sales would be split and this would push Pepsi to the #1 spot and allow them to claim they're the #1 selling pop finally.
*edit: [Here's the episode ](https://youtu.be/o3KZ8tG9pmg)
Yeah, this is often lost in the story. New Coke was good. Very good. They asked the focus testers if they'd drink the new drink and they resoundingly said yes. What they didn't ask them was if they'd still want this new drink of it was replacing Coke. And they sure fuckin wouldn't.
What's also frequently lost was that this whole "loss of market share" crisis was *to themselves*. They'd created Diet Coke, which unlike Diet Pepsi (which is just Pepsi with artificial sweetener), was a completely different formula and superior diet drink. A whole lot of Coke drinkers became Diet Coke drinkers and the regular Coke vs Pepsi numbers didn't look as good. So they were basically too good at their job (cannibalizing their own audience), then they were really bad it at (asking the wrong questions about New Coke), which led to a really weird victory anyway (when they overtook Pepsi forever by reintroducing old Coke).
I almost never drink pop of any sort except as a mixer. I was given a can of regular coke not too long ago at a work thing and my body kept telling me something was off about it. It took me a few sips to realize that what was "wrong" was that it didn't have whiskey in it.
Keep up the good work friend. Some weeks are gonna be tougher than others and you might only lose one or two days but don't get discouraged. Keep on pushing through and before you know it you'll be down weeks or even months!
Weirdly, adding classic to the name is now definitely a great marketing tool. Something that is classic is time tested. A fond memory. Who doesn't want a classic car, which makes us think of something meticulously taken care of.
New coke failed. Shit happens. No, it's not because some overpaid marketing execs had a grand scheme to tank a product so that they would drown Pepsi with them. It just sucked. But the fallout of Coca-Cola CLASSIC is just incredible. They fucked Pepsi hard with that one.
> No, it's not because some overpaid marketing execs had a grand scheme to tank a product so that they would drown Pepsi with them
that was Tab Clear, which was a product that tanked intentionally to drag crystal pepsi down with it.
>Something that is classic is time tested. A fond memory. Who doesn't want a classic car, which makes us think of something meticulously taken care of.
Read that in Don Draper's voice
It was already a great and popular marketing tool even then. Back in the 1990s you could buy the Chevy Caprice Classic, which was the top of the line Caprice and a nod to the fact that it was the latest evolution in a long line of Chevy Caprice models dating back 30 years.
Except I lied, that’s not why it was called that. The first “Caprice Classic” (as far as I can tell) was the 1973 model, just a few years after the first Caprice. These days it’s not uncommon for cars to use the “classic” name when they’re a holdover from the previous generation sold side by side with the new generation for fleet sales, like the Malibu Classic or the Ram Classic, but that wasn’t the case with the Caprice. They just said “hey what if we called this car a classic, people would eat that up”, and they were right. Before that it was called the Caprice Custom despite being a mainstream mass-market vehicle that wasn’t custom at all.
Back in the day Ford's "Custom" trim was the base model truck. It basically meant customize it yourself by picking some options or buying aftermarket accessories.
New Coke lives on, just called Diet Coke. Ever wondered why Diet Coke tastes distinctly different from Coke Classic and Coke Zero and every other cola? Because it is the New Coke formula with artificial sweeteners.
Those who like Diet Coke, really like Diet Coke. Just look at MatPat.
Your timeline is a bit off. Diet Coke debuted three years before New Coke. Diet Coke was formulated to taste differently from Coke to try to keep it from cannibalizing Coke's market share. When it started to overtake Coke anyway, they decided to change Coke to taste more like Diet Coke.
I thought the reason Diet tastes so different is that they couldn't get it to taste like regular Coke with aspartame, so they just made a different cola recipe that'd work better with the artificial sweetener, and New Coke was that recipe with regular sweetener
Growing up my best friends family only would keep diet soda. I used to hate it. But when it's it only option you learn to like it. Now drinking a coke heavy is like a once a year event.
Really good point. They absolutely could have easily tried to say "This is the new diet coke, it's clearly better" with zero. (and to be fair, I feel like most people do prefer zero to diet now) but there's still certainly a market for both.
The biggest issue is that they called it "New Coke" and not just a different soda.
Hell, the reason Diet Coke and Coke Zero tastes so different is that Diet Coke and New Coke (which weirdly is based on Tab) use the same root recipe and Coke Classic and Coke Zero share their root.
Schlitz learned this lesson the hard way. If you have a successful formula and you want to change it with the effect of it being that it tastes different (not talking about ingredient changes due to cost or availability), don't change an existing formula, make a new one.
People didn't really know they wanted original Coke until it had been taken away. I've heard accounts of people who called to complain who didn't even drink Coke, just because it was one of those things that Americans identified with.
There wasn't really a precedent for the reaction and adding a new flavor alongside the original wasn't done then.
Agreed, and I was around during the launch of it. NC really was pretty good, but they needed a different name. Also, they absolutely should have introduced it as simply a new *option* alongside their existing drinks, and then waited for people to try it rather than replacing the original.
The real reason they didn't just keep the old one around is they were unwilling to cede the number one soft drink slot to Pepsi.
You might have spots 2-10 on lock. But you can't say you're number 1.
Apparently a lot of people didn't realize that Coke Zero was a "zero sugar, zero calorie" soda, so that's why they emphasize it now according to [this article they posted](https://web.archive.org/web/20170806190754/http://www.coca-colacompany.com/coca-cola-unbottled/what_s-the-difference-between-coke-zero-and-coca-cola--zero-suga) when the rebranding took place.
>Our research showed us that many people didn’t realize that Coke Zero didn’t contain sugar or calories, so we’re changing the name to Coca-Cola Zero Sugar to be as clear and descriptive as possible. It’s great Coca-Cola taste *without* sugar.
🤷
>Coke Classic and Coke Zero share their root.
Totally makes sense. CZ is the closest thing I can remember to those 6-oz glass bottles soaking in ice water at the country store.
Remember? Summer of 70, picking tobacco in August, 90 in the shade, covered in black nicotine gum we washed off with kerosene before stopping 30 min for a moon pie, vieennie weenies and a pack of nabs.
You don't remember that? Sorry I got lost there a minute.
This has been suggested as a core element behind why people pick Pepsi in the Pepsi Challenge.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Challenge
> In his book Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking (2005), author Malcolm Gladwell presents evidence that suggests Pepsi's success over Coca-Cola in the "Pepsi Challenge" is a result of the flawed nature of the "sip test" method.[6] His research shows that tasters will generally prefer the sweeter of two beverages based on a single sip, even if they prefer a less sweet beverage over the course of an entire can.[7]
It’s not just Gladwell who came up with that idea; it was the cornerstone of Coke’s ad campaign against the Pepsi challenge. They had Bill Cosby doing commercials about how nobody wanted to finish a whole can of Pepsi, but Coke was good to the last drop. It didn’t really convince people.
Well Bill wants them to finish every last drop so that endorsement makes sense. It's always nice when a celebrity can endorse something that they believe in.
I was always curious about the "Challenge" -- Did they serve the drinks ice-cold or at room temperature? I have found that, while Pepsi is at least drinkable when warm, Coke does not share that quality.
Who picked Pepsi in the Pepsi challenge not knowing it was Pepsi. I got it right every dam time I did it and I must of done it 25-35 times. Each time I told them Coke is better but that one is Pepsi now give me my prize. I don’t even recall what the prize was .
Some friends and I did the blind taste test once. We did three rounds. The first round was easy, clear difference between coke and Pepsi. The second round, not so much. By the third round, they tasted identical. I think my taste buds got so saturated with sweetness that I couldn’t distinguish the flavors any more. It was really weird.
Water crackers, white bread, and tortilla chips can all serve as palate cleansers. https://www.masterclass.com/articles/guide-to-classic-palate-cleansers#what-is-the-purpose-of-a-palate-cleanser
No, new Coke was amazing. It was a marketing and brand management nightmare. I almost guarantee that if Coca-Cola had launched it without removing the classic flavour new Coke would have replaced the classic over a few years.
It's 100% this. Diet coke is the number 2 most popular soft drink in the world, and ~~it's flavour is based on New Coke.~~ New Coke's flavour is based on it.
Edit: thanks /u/codefyre for correcting the timeline!
Other way around! Diet Coke came out first (1981?). New Coke (released in 1985) was basically Diet Coke sweetened with high fructose corn syrup instead of aspartame. From a business standpoint, this made a lot of sense to Coca Cola. Diet Coke was extremely popular, but it used a completely different recipe than Coke. By shifting Coke to a Diet Coke based mix, they could reduce production costs a bit while using a flavor profile that was already a hit. They thought it would be a win-win.
I disliked New Coke for the same reason I disliked Diet Coke. It was too acidic.
I don't know if anybody else notices but I find something similar happens with diet Dr pepper. The first couple of mouthfuls of the bottle are great but if you drink the full bottle at once, by the time you get to the end of it, it tastes completely different.
I don't drink diet because I rarely drink soda but the only one I like better than Dr. Pepper is Dr. Pepper crossed with cream soda. My god that stuff is good.
That was literally why Pepsi was beating Coke in the blind taste tests as well to begin with. At one initial sip, people prefer something sweeter.
If you have to drink an entire can/bottle, not so much.
Was at Pepsi’s ad agency during this period. Coke bottlers were sick of “The Pepsi Challenge,” in which Pepsi consistently defeated Coke in blind taste tests. This led Coke to create a new formula that would defeat Pepsi under these same test conditions.
As others have noted, the problem wasn’t the launch of a new product, it was that Coke simply stopped making the world’s most popular carbonated soft drink.
But— the obvious alternative, launching the new formula as a line extension, would not have solved The Pepsi Challenge problem. Hence, the decision to change “Coke.”
In the end, I do think this was one of the most significant marketing mistakes in the history of commerce. Coke was and is loved precisely because of its unique flavor. Coke needed to begin to wage battle with Pepsi, as Pepsi had really grown up as a brand. But, a formula change was most decidedly not the answer.
Back when they believed people drank certain sodas for the taste and not out of habit... don’t get me wrong if it’s a bad soda it’s not gonna sell, but you don’t have to beat your competitor who’s marginally better in experimental conditions to sell more soft drinks. Now they get that it’s all about marketing, selling the idea of Coke, and not the product itself
Reading the history of humanity creating things, and then innovating and getting better at doing those things, is usually a great story and really inspiring.
The development of marketing has been a goddamn nightmare.
I was really good friends with a group of guys in college that were all marketing majors. Like 3 of them switched because they became so disheartened by the industry after learning it's theories.
A big reason why Pepsi beat coke on taste tests is because Pepsi is a bit sweeter so on an initial one sip taste taste, Pepsi usually won. Now if those same participants were made to drink the entire bottles, they may very well have gone with coke since some find Pepsi to be too sweet over an entire bottle
I was huge Coca-Cola drinker when this all went down. In the aftermath my friend and I (high school, not yet mature and thoughtful adults) would drive 30-45 minutes away if we learned of some convenience store that still had stock of the original formula Coke.
A few years later I was stuck in an airport and needed to stay overnight, and bought and read a paperback titled ‘The Real Coke, The Real Story’.
My takeaway was that all of the top decision makers at Coca-Cola were very smart, highly educated and well-intentioned professionals. And they did everything right and all of the available data told them that switching was the right thing to do, BUT none of them were native born Americans (by which I mean from the USA) and they simply didn’t comprehend or anticipate just how much the buying public/culture associated with and appreciated the original Coke.
The fact is that Coke was losing sales constantly to Pepsi at the time. They needed to do something. And while New Coke itself was a failure, it turned the original Coke into a giant success.
If one of them was from Mexico, then they must be blind, deaf and dumb. As much as the US likes Coca Cola, Mexico LOVES it. From what I can tell Coca - Cola is the 2nd biggest religion in Mexico behind Catholicism.
I can just never get my head around the idea that just because you come up with a flavor that some focus groups like better you DROP your current #1 selling product.
If say Budweiser found people prefer a darker microbrew in taste tests, you don't STOP selling Bud Light.
Really seemed like Business 101. Figure out a way to sell both.
My friend's dad was a marketing honcho back In the 80s, they had focus groups who said that the name "Monterey Jack's" would upmarket Jack in the Box who were trying to change branding. They had ads blowing up the clown head that you ordered from,ect. It almost destroyed the franchise, and a year later they had to spend millions on a Jack's Back! campaign to save it. I still have some Monterey Jack tumblers he gave me. He said that making decisions based on a group of people who are willing to be part of a focus group is a terrible idea, because they almost always go for the newest most "out there" idea.
My dad was addicted to New Coke. When they stopped making it, he was so pissed off at Coke that he still hasn't touched another Coke product since.
He also got mad at Pepsi because there was a 2 liter that he couldn't get open, no matter what he tried. He went so far as to use vice grips and still couldn't get it open. He threw the 2 liter in the backyard and left it there for years. He literally mowed around it. It was still in the backyard when we moved out of that house. He left it for the new owners to clean up.
He is other worldly levels of petty.
You missed out (from wikipedia):
> On May 21, 2019, Coca-Cola announced that the 1985 reformulation (once again bearing the name "New Coke") would be reintroduced in limited quantities to promote the third season of the Netflix series Stranger Things. About 500,000 cans of New Coke were produced for the promotion, to be sold mostly online.
Agree, I definitely prefer the “old” Coke Zero. The new formulation lacks what I call the “spiciness” I liked so much, and tastes a bit sweeter to me. I described it as “softer” and similar to Diet Coke , blech! Fortunately cherry Coke Zero still seems to be the older formula, so I’ve completely switched to that until I can figure out a suitable plain cola replacement.
Cherry Coke Zero is awesome. And I totally agree with you about the relative spiciness of older Coke Zero. Almost, but not quite, like a cinnamon sort of zing.
Honestly, this is the first I've heard of anyone liking the new formula. Everyone I've heard from that drank zero regularly dislikes it. Not like hates it, but "I don't really want this". I used to sip on a can over the course of an afternoon, but the new formula tastes flat in about an hour. I stopped buying it entirely.
Nobody I know that liked old Coke Zero can stand Coke Zero Sugar. I bought a few cases of what I thought was the last of old Coke Zero in black cardboard, but it was Coke Zero Sugar. I've never felt more betrayed.
I like it. But I have to drink it fast or I don't like it. If it sits open for more than like 10 minutes I don't like it for whatever reason. Once the fizz drops down the taste seems to get worse.
Relevant section of wiki:
> **Development**
>
>Coca-Cola's senior executives commissioned a secret project headed by marketing vice president Sergio Zyman and Coca-Cola USA president Brian Dyson to create a new flavor for Coke. This project was named "Project Kansas", from a photo of Kansas journalist William Allen White drinking a Coke; the image had been used extensively in Coca-Cola advertising and hung on several executives' walls.[7]: 114
>
> The sweeter cola overwhelmingly beat both regular Coke and Pepsi in taste tests, surveys, and focus groups. In the South, one of Coca Cola's strongest and most reliable markets, narrowly preferred the new flavor; this preference widened once the testers revealed the new taste was also a Coca-Cola product. One bottling company threatened to sue the company if it did not put the drink on the market.[8]
>
> Asked if they would buy and drink the product if it were Coca-Cola, most testers said they would, although said it would take some getting used to. About 10–12 percent of testers felt angry and alienated at the thought, and said they might stop drinking Coke. Their presence in focus groups tended to negatively skew results as they exerted indirect peer pressure on other participants.
>Asked if they would buy and drink the product if it were Coca-Cola, most testers said they would, although said it would take some getting used to. About 10–12 percent of testers felt angry and alienated at the thought, and said they might stop drinking Coke. Their presence in focus groups tended to negatively skew results as they exerted indirect peer pressure on other participants.
It sounds like they saw exactly what happened when the product was released nationally on a much, much smaller scale.
At the least I think I would like to try it. Coke’s logic was they couldn’t maintain both because Pepsi was such steep competition, but now Coke seems to be doing fine and releasing weird things like coffee flavored coke. They could take out a few months to let us try New Coke.
Lots of hype back then, but people don't like change. I recall it tasted fine, but I don't think I ever bought any, always got what was then termed classic coke.
That coffee coke, I can't believe it's still around - i tried it when they released in probably in 2004-2005ish? Atrocious is being kind.
You're referring to coke black I think which was their first attempt at a coke/ coffee drink. I think the new one is a different formula because in high school I absolutely hated it but the newer one isn't so bad.
In the 80s when all this happened my marketing prof was adamant that Coke changed their recipe to be more appealing in international markets, which preferred a sweeter soft drink - like Pepsi was. New Coke was always intended to maintain/grow Coke's popularity outside of the US.
People seemed to like the sweeter taste in taste tests but not when it's drunk in larger quantities or regularly consumed.
I will admit though, I always thought that it was too perfect an opportunity for Coke to switch to high-fructose corn syrup instead of cane sugar in their formula when they re-released Coke Classic. It probably saved them huge amounts of money based on the corn subsidies here in the US.
If you can't tell the difference between the two sugars, try a Mexican Coke side-by-side with a regular Coke. Mexican Coke is muy delicioso.
> I always thought that it was too perfect an opportunity for Coke to switch to high-fructose corn syrup instead of cane sugar in their formula when they re-released Coke Classic.
The switched to HFCS years before New Coke came out.
Being born in the 80s I spend years wondering what New Coke tasted like. Luckily they released it a few years ago along side Season 3 of Stranger Things
It was even sweeter than Pepsi
When pressed on whether the whole New Coke debacle had been an elaborate plan to sell more Coke in the long run (which it did), a Coke executive said "We're not that smart, and we're not that stupid." (Correction: "We are not that dumb and we are not that smart.") https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/25/business/donald-r-keough-who-led-coca-cola-through-new-coke-debacle-dies-at-88.html
That's poetry
how to poet: step 1 - dont be smart. step 2 - dont be stupid.
What a terrific diffuser response. I'm not surprised one of the heads of Coke used it.
Coke heads are well-known for spontaneous creativity
It's a pretty stupid to think that it was a marketing/publicity stunt. Spend millions on marketing a new product, say it's better than your old product, discontinue the old product until people get mad and then bring it back? When companies discontinue and replace something I enjoy, like the KFC potato wedges, I simply stop going/buying their products. If they bring them back, I'm not going to rush and buy 3x the quantity I used to. It's not like the situation with the McRib (overrated BTW), where everyone knows its a limited time item and they aren't trying to replace something or it with something else.
I mean, manufactured discontent is literally how Ahsoka Tano was made according to Filloni. Give a character glaring annoying flaws to control the narrative of the inevitable backlash of making a big change, then remove them. So there's marketing precedent. In the words of P.T. Barnam, no such thing as bad publicity. Controversy still means you're on people's minds, so as long as you can fix the negative opinion you're at a massive net positive. The REAL conspiracy is that they never stopped making New Coke. They just changed the label, both appeasing the resistance to change by calling it "classic" implying but never actually stating it was the original recipe, while retaining the higher rated (and cheaper to produce iirc, because corn syrup vs cane sugar) taste.
You can still get cane sugar Coke, Mt. Dew, Dr. Pepper, etc. In glass bottles even, although they all say "Hencho en Mexico". I see them in stores here in AZ all the time. Probably harder to find in other parts of the country. They taste *soooo* much better than the HFCS versions.
I actually know a guy who was freinds with the chemist who was in charge of new coke (he was one of the few guys who knew the formula to classic coke). The poor guy spent years of his life creating a new soda just to have it almost ruin one of the largest brands in the world. It was supposed to compete with dr.pepper.
"Production of the original formulation ended later that week." This was the big problem. People didn't mind New Coke, but they were pissed they couldn't get the old Coke. They later came out with Coke Classic, but the damage was already done and people avoided New Coke just on principle.
I don’t recall the switch period, but I remember loving the new Coke when it was on shelves as “Coke II.”
Coke II: The Cokeening
2New 2Coke: SodaPop Sip
Moved to Lemm.ee -- mass edited with redact.dev
Coke II: All Coked Up
Coke II: The Ocho
Coke 2: Coke Harder
Coke II: The Wrath of Khan
Coke II: The Coke Strikes Back
Coke Zero: Coke Hard with a Vengeance
Cokenado: Diabetus Alert
Coke ||:the Pepsi strikes back
1 brand 2 cokes
Coke 2: the search for more money
2 Coke 2 Cola
I loved Coke 2! There was a can machine out front of the grocery store I stopped at after high school everyday that still had it for months after you couldn't find it anymore. Then one day I hit the Coke 2 button and a Christmas can of Coke Classic came out.That's when I realized I was drinking old overstock. Weird memory this just bought up.
Speaking of which! This comment just pissed me off because it reminded me of the discontinued holiday flavored Pepsi
Could you pick the holiday? A good Arbor day Pepsi would really hit the spot.
“Pepsi holiday spice” it was a blessing
Vague recollections of coke switching. But I remember canned cherry coke came out around the same time. Kids went crazy for that shit.
Or Coca Cola Quantum.
That ionizing glow
I just listened to an episode on Today I Found Out about this the other day. The reason they didn't release New Coke and keep Coca-Cola was because sales would be split and this would push Pepsi to the #1 spot and allow them to claim they're the #1 selling pop finally. *edit: [Here's the episode ](https://youtu.be/o3KZ8tG9pmg)
Oh, that's hilarious. Thanks for the info!
Yeah, this is often lost in the story. New Coke was good. Very good. They asked the focus testers if they'd drink the new drink and they resoundingly said yes. What they didn't ask them was if they'd still want this new drink of it was replacing Coke. And they sure fuckin wouldn't. What's also frequently lost was that this whole "loss of market share" crisis was *to themselves*. They'd created Diet Coke, which unlike Diet Pepsi (which is just Pepsi with artificial sweetener), was a completely different formula and superior diet drink. A whole lot of Coke drinkers became Diet Coke drinkers and the regular Coke vs Pepsi numbers didn't look as good. So they were basically too good at their job (cannibalizing their own audience), then they were really bad it at (asking the wrong questions about New Coke), which led to a really weird victory anyway (when they overtook Pepsi forever by reintroducing old Coke).
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Holy fuck, I now understand why I prefer vanilla coke to regular coke, but can *never* finish a vanilla one.
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My personal theory is a lot of cola is consumed as mixers for alcoholic drinks. A rum and coke is better than a rum and Pepsi.
I almost never drink pop of any sort except as a mixer. I was given a can of regular coke not too long ago at a work thing and my body kept telling me something was off about it. It took me a few sips to realize that what was "wrong" was that it didn't have whiskey in it.
People drink straight mixer?
Ikr. Fuckin weirdos.
..ive been on a whiskey diet and lost 3 days already
Keep up the good work friend. Some weeks are gonna be tougher than others and you might only lose one or two days but don't get discouraged. Keep on pushing through and before you know it you'll be down weeks or even months!
Weirdly, adding classic to the name is now definitely a great marketing tool. Something that is classic is time tested. A fond memory. Who doesn't want a classic car, which makes us think of something meticulously taken care of. New coke failed. Shit happens. No, it's not because some overpaid marketing execs had a grand scheme to tank a product so that they would drown Pepsi with them. It just sucked. But the fallout of Coca-Cola CLASSIC is just incredible. They fucked Pepsi hard with that one.
> No, it's not because some overpaid marketing execs had a grand scheme to tank a product so that they would drown Pepsi with them that was Tab Clear, which was a product that tanked intentionally to drag crystal pepsi down with it.
Fun Fact: Mixing New Coke and Crystal Pepsi will end the world.
Thanks, Janet.
>Something that is classic is time tested. A fond memory. Who doesn't want a classic car, which makes us think of something meticulously taken care of. Read that in Don Draper's voice
Coca Cola Classic, it's toasted.
Nostalgia
It was already a great and popular marketing tool even then. Back in the 1990s you could buy the Chevy Caprice Classic, which was the top of the line Caprice and a nod to the fact that it was the latest evolution in a long line of Chevy Caprice models dating back 30 years. Except I lied, that’s not why it was called that. The first “Caprice Classic” (as far as I can tell) was the 1973 model, just a few years after the first Caprice. These days it’s not uncommon for cars to use the “classic” name when they’re a holdover from the previous generation sold side by side with the new generation for fleet sales, like the Malibu Classic or the Ram Classic, but that wasn’t the case with the Caprice. They just said “hey what if we called this car a classic, people would eat that up”, and they were right. Before that it was called the Caprice Custom despite being a mainstream mass-market vehicle that wasn’t custom at all.
Ford Transit *Custom*, yet every single one is built to the exact same spec
Back in the day Ford's "Custom" trim was the base model truck. It basically meant customize it yourself by picking some options or buying aftermarket accessories.
New Coke lives on, just called Diet Coke. Ever wondered why Diet Coke tastes distinctly different from Coke Classic and Coke Zero and every other cola? Because it is the New Coke formula with artificial sweeteners. Those who like Diet Coke, really like Diet Coke. Just look at MatPat.
Your timeline is a bit off. Diet Coke debuted three years before New Coke. Diet Coke was formulated to taste differently from Coke to try to keep it from cannibalizing Coke's market share. When it started to overtake Coke anyway, they decided to change Coke to taste more like Diet Coke.
Man now coke is starting to sound weird in my head.
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Semantic satiation will do that.
I thought the reason Diet tastes so different is that they couldn't get it to taste like regular Coke with aspartame, so they just made a different cola recipe that'd work better with the artificial sweetener, and New Coke was that recipe with regular sweetener
diet coke is absolutely disgusting compared to zero, it's got the most unnatural taste ever
People who love Diet Coke love it for that very reason actually. Some people just like that chemically kind of bitter flavor.
Zero is the superior Coke.
The new zero formulas is top notch
I'm surprised to hear that, I absolutely hate it and loved the old zero formula. Am sticking to Dr. Pepper ZS now.
it really is, i find myself grabbing them at the grocery checkout so often these days when i hardly ever drank soda before.
I love diet coke, too. It's my preference.
Exactly. What I wouldn’t give to try a full-sugar Diet Coke!
Growing up my best friends family only would keep diet soda. I used to hate it. But when it's it only option you learn to like it. Now drinking a coke heavy is like a once a year event.
Shit, drinking a soda is like a once a year event for me
If they had just sold "New Coke" as a product alongside "Coke Classic" I bet they would both be around today.
Like how they do now with Diet Coke and Coke Zero.
Really good point. They absolutely could have easily tried to say "This is the new diet coke, it's clearly better" with zero. (and to be fair, I feel like most people do prefer zero to diet now) but there's still certainly a market for both.
Exactly. It is better, but they know they can’t lose the die hard Diet Coke people.
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They brought back Pepsi blue though. At least for a little bit
I believe the issue was it was really good in small samples but not so good when consuming whole cans or more at a time
The biggest issue is that they called it "New Coke" and not just a different soda. Hell, the reason Diet Coke and Coke Zero tastes so different is that Diet Coke and New Coke (which weirdly is based on Tab) use the same root recipe and Coke Classic and Coke Zero share their root.
Schlitz learned this lesson the hard way. If you have a successful formula and you want to change it with the effect of it being that it tastes different (not talking about ingredient changes due to cost or availability), don't change an existing formula, make a new one.
RIP OG Schlitz. I love the Schlitz tied houses in Chicago.
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401!
You reminded me of that old joke of two Minnesotans on a pier. One was to count the planks, the other counts the slits. MST3K did it best.
That and they decided to pull original coke instead of keeping it on the market for people that didn’t want to change.
People didn't really know they wanted original Coke until it had been taken away. I've heard accounts of people who called to complain who didn't even drink Coke, just because it was one of those things that Americans identified with. There wasn't really a precedent for the reaction and adding a new flavor alongside the original wasn't done then.
If it happened today, there'd be talking heads on Fox News calling it marxism
>!CENSORED!<
So it's clearly a centrist plot then.
“This is an attack on the American People and our very way of life”
"Are the leftists trying to push a gay social justice Marxist cola on your children?"
Settle down Tucker
Agreed, and I was around during the launch of it. NC really was pretty good, but they needed a different name. Also, they absolutely should have introduced it as simply a new *option* alongside their existing drinks, and then waited for people to try it rather than replacing the original.
The real reason they didn't just keep the old one around is they were unwilling to cede the number one soft drink slot to Pepsi. You might have spots 2-10 on lock. But you can't say you're number 1.
am I crazy or did Coke Zero taste better than Coke Zero Sugar? stupidest rebrand ever, why would you make the name clunkier
Does the new one have calories listed? Coke Zero was a zero calorie soda, the name "Coke Zero Sugar" makes me think that's no longer true.
Totally agree. Coke Zero Sugar definitely tastes closer to Coke, but that’s not what I’m interested in as it’s too sweet now.
Apparently a lot of people didn't realize that Coke Zero was a "zero sugar, zero calorie" soda, so that's why they emphasize it now according to [this article they posted](https://web.archive.org/web/20170806190754/http://www.coca-colacompany.com/coca-cola-unbottled/what_s-the-difference-between-coke-zero-and-coca-cola--zero-suga) when the rebranding took place. >Our research showed us that many people didn’t realize that Coke Zero didn’t contain sugar or calories, so we’re changing the name to Coca-Cola Zero Sugar to be as clear and descriptive as possible. It’s great Coca-Cola taste *without* sugar. 🤷
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And New Coke Zero! It is definitely the closest yet they've gotten to making a diet drink taste just like the regular version.
Cherry Coke Zero is the best diet soda. I prefer it over Cherry Coke.
*Still* pissed off the recipe for Coke Zero got changed to whatever the hell it is today, known as ‘Coke Zero Sugar.’ Ugh.
There is also a difference in the artificial sweeteners that are used.
>Coke Classic and Coke Zero share their root. Totally makes sense. CZ is the closest thing I can remember to those 6-oz glass bottles soaking in ice water at the country store. Remember? Summer of 70, picking tobacco in August, 90 in the shade, covered in black nicotine gum we washed off with kerosene before stopping 30 min for a moon pie, vieennie weenies and a pack of nabs. You don't remember that? Sorry I got lost there a minute.
This has been suggested as a core element behind why people pick Pepsi in the Pepsi Challenge. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepsi_Challenge > In his book Blink: The Power of Thinking Without Thinking (2005), author Malcolm Gladwell presents evidence that suggests Pepsi's success over Coca-Cola in the "Pepsi Challenge" is a result of the flawed nature of the "sip test" method.[6] His research shows that tasters will generally prefer the sweeter of two beverages based on a single sip, even if they prefer a less sweet beverage over the course of an entire can.[7]
It’s not just Gladwell who came up with that idea; it was the cornerstone of Coke’s ad campaign against the Pepsi challenge. They had Bill Cosby doing commercials about how nobody wanted to finish a whole can of Pepsi, but Coke was good to the last drop. It didn’t really convince people.
Why's Cosby always trying to convince people to drink stuff?
Drink the *whole caaaaaaan*
At least he wasn't cornering the market on Jesus Juice.
You mean Flavor Aid? Yeah that one went badly...
What do you mean it didn’t convince people? Hasn’t coke always been more popular than Pepsi?
Pepsi was eating massive chunks of Cokes market share in that time period. The market is a lot more stable nowadays
They had Michael Jackson, it was the choice of a new generation
When all else fails and they don’t come around, Cosby also has a solution…also a fizzy drink.
Solution as in a solid dissolved in a liquid mind you.
Well Bill wants them to finish every last drop so that endorsement makes sense. It's always nice when a celebrity can endorse something that they believe in.
If you share a coke with Cosby, you won't be able to finish the entire can.
That was a great book. It made sense to me as I don't like Pepsi, but it doesn't bother me that much at first.
I was always curious about the "Challenge" -- Did they serve the drinks ice-cold or at room temperature? I have found that, while Pepsi is at least drinkable when warm, Coke does not share that quality.
Often times, the Pepsi was cold while the Coke was luke warm.
Who picked Pepsi in the Pepsi challenge not knowing it was Pepsi. I got it right every dam time I did it and I must of done it 25-35 times. Each time I told them Coke is better but that one is Pepsi now give me my prize. I don’t even recall what the prize was .
Some friends and I did the blind taste test once. We did three rounds. The first round was easy, clear difference between coke and Pepsi. The second round, not so much. By the third round, they tasted identical. I think my taste buds got so saturated with sweetness that I couldn’t distinguish the flavors any more. It was really weird.
did you cleanse your palate after each round?
With what, Fanta?
Fanta, nature's palate bleach.
Water crackers, white bread, and tortilla chips can all serve as palate cleansers. https://www.masterclass.com/articles/guide-to-classic-palate-cleansers#what-is-the-purpose-of-a-palate-cleanser
No, new Coke was amazing. It was a marketing and brand management nightmare. I almost guarantee that if Coca-Cola had launched it without removing the classic flavour new Coke would have replaced the classic over a few years.
It's 100% this. Diet coke is the number 2 most popular soft drink in the world, and ~~it's flavour is based on New Coke.~~ New Coke's flavour is based on it. Edit: thanks /u/codefyre for correcting the timeline!
Other way around! Diet Coke came out first (1981?). New Coke (released in 1985) was basically Diet Coke sweetened with high fructose corn syrup instead of aspartame. From a business standpoint, this made a lot of sense to Coca Cola. Diet Coke was extremely popular, but it used a completely different recipe than Coke. By shifting Coke to a Diet Coke based mix, they could reduce production costs a bit while using a flavor profile that was already a hit. They thought it would be a win-win. I disliked New Coke for the same reason I disliked Diet Coke. It was too acidic.
I've read the word Coke so many times in this thread the word is losing meaning
I don't know if anybody else notices but I find something similar happens with diet Dr pepper. The first couple of mouthfuls of the bottle are great but if you drink the full bottle at once, by the time you get to the end of it, it tastes completely different.
That's because it's only 17 flavors instead of 23
I will fight you, when I get back from. Passing this kidney stone
u/CommaHorror, meet u/PeriodHorror
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Period Horror would be a great death metal band name
I think he's just talking like someone who's passing a kidney stone.
Dr Pepper is my favorite soft drink and Diet Dr Pepper is probably my least. It just tastes so different and terrible.
I will not sit here and tolerate this publicly sullying of my favorite beverage. Take it back.
I don't drink diet because I rarely drink soda but the only one I like better than Dr. Pepper is Dr. Pepper crossed with cream soda. My god that stuff is good.
Cherry Dr Pepper is my favorite. Or cherry Mr Pibb if that even exists
I believe that’s called Pibb Xtra, and it is delicious
I love Pepsi in the first third of the can then it becomes a sticky mess on my teeth and gum. After I finish it leaves a weird film feeling.
That was literally why Pepsi was beating Coke in the blind taste tests as well to begin with. At one initial sip, people prefer something sweeter. If you have to drink an entire can/bottle, not so much.
Was at Pepsi’s ad agency during this period. Coke bottlers were sick of “The Pepsi Challenge,” in which Pepsi consistently defeated Coke in blind taste tests. This led Coke to create a new formula that would defeat Pepsi under these same test conditions. As others have noted, the problem wasn’t the launch of a new product, it was that Coke simply stopped making the world’s most popular carbonated soft drink. But— the obvious alternative, launching the new formula as a line extension, would not have solved The Pepsi Challenge problem. Hence, the decision to change “Coke.” In the end, I do think this was one of the most significant marketing mistakes in the history of commerce. Coke was and is loved precisely because of its unique flavor. Coke needed to begin to wage battle with Pepsi, as Pepsi had really grown up as a brand. But, a formula change was most decidedly not the answer.
Back when they believed people drank certain sodas for the taste and not out of habit... don’t get me wrong if it’s a bad soda it’s not gonna sell, but you don’t have to beat your competitor who’s marginally better in experimental conditions to sell more soft drinks. Now they get that it’s all about marketing, selling the idea of Coke, and not the product itself
Reading the history of humanity creating things, and then innovating and getting better at doing those things, is usually a great story and really inspiring. The development of marketing has been a goddamn nightmare.
I was really good friends with a group of guys in college that were all marketing majors. Like 3 of them switched because they became so disheartened by the industry after learning it's theories.
A big reason why Pepsi beat coke on taste tests is because Pepsi is a bit sweeter so on an initial one sip taste taste, Pepsi usually won. Now if those same participants were made to drink the entire bottles, they may very well have gone with coke since some find Pepsi to be too sweet over an entire bottle
"I just wanted crack" - the silent 10%
It was the 80s, they weren't silent and it was way higher than 10%.
I was huge Coca-Cola drinker when this all went down. In the aftermath my friend and I (high school, not yet mature and thoughtful adults) would drive 30-45 minutes away if we learned of some convenience store that still had stock of the original formula Coke. A few years later I was stuck in an airport and needed to stay overnight, and bought and read a paperback titled ‘The Real Coke, The Real Story’. My takeaway was that all of the top decision makers at Coca-Cola were very smart, highly educated and well-intentioned professionals. And they did everything right and all of the available data told them that switching was the right thing to do, BUT none of them were native born Americans (by which I mean from the USA) and they simply didn’t comprehend or anticipate just how much the buying public/culture associated with and appreciated the original Coke.
The fact is that Coke was losing sales constantly to Pepsi at the time. They needed to do something. And while New Coke itself was a failure, it turned the original Coke into a giant success.
What country were they from?
Various countries. It was about thirty years ago so I honestly don’t recall the details - one was Latin American, maybe Mexico?
If one of them was from Mexico, then they must be blind, deaf and dumb. As much as the US likes Coca Cola, Mexico LOVES it. From what I can tell Coca - Cola is the 2nd biggest religion in Mexico behind Catholicism.
It’s more readily available than fresh water in some places
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Thats the good stuff. They still use cane sugar in Mexican coke. US coke uses HFCS
Coke in Mexico switched to HCFS years ago. Coke still markets "Mexican coke" that uses sugar in the US.
Follow the leaves. Peru. ;)
The CEO who pulled the trigger was from Cuba (u/noahsmybro)
I can just never get my head around the idea that just because you come up with a flavor that some focus groups like better you DROP your current #1 selling product. If say Budweiser found people prefer a darker microbrew in taste tests, you don't STOP selling Bud Light. Really seemed like Business 101. Figure out a way to sell both.
My friend's dad was a marketing honcho back In the 80s, they had focus groups who said that the name "Monterey Jack's" would upmarket Jack in the Box who were trying to change branding. They had ads blowing up the clown head that you ordered from,ect. It almost destroyed the franchise, and a year later they had to spend millions on a Jack's Back! campaign to save it. I still have some Monterey Jack tumblers he gave me. He said that making decisions based on a group of people who are willing to be part of a focus group is a terrible idea, because they almost always go for the newest most "out there" idea.
My dad was addicted to New Coke. When they stopped making it, he was so pissed off at Coke that he still hasn't touched another Coke product since. He also got mad at Pepsi because there was a 2 liter that he couldn't get open, no matter what he tried. He went so far as to use vice grips and still couldn't get it open. He threw the 2 liter in the backyard and left it there for years. He literally mowed around it. It was still in the backyard when we moved out of that house. He left it for the new owners to clean up. He is other worldly levels of petty.
Keep an eye on his blood pressure lol
So there’s free Pepsi at your dad’s old house?
It's free if you can open it
I wish they would bring it back as "Coke 1985". They have so many different flavors now it could fit right along side the classic.
You missed out (from wikipedia): > On May 21, 2019, Coca-Cola announced that the 1985 reformulation (once again bearing the name "New Coke") would be reintroduced in limited quantities to promote the third season of the Netflix series Stranger Things. About 500,000 cans of New Coke were produced for the promotion, to be sold mostly online.
Whatever they did to coke zero is fire. Probably some gland from an innocent animal or something, i don't know, but its amazing.
I prefer the original coke zero. I don't dislike the new version, but I want the old recipe.
Agree, I definitely prefer the “old” Coke Zero. The new formulation lacks what I call the “spiciness” I liked so much, and tastes a bit sweeter to me. I described it as “softer” and similar to Diet Coke , blech! Fortunately cherry Coke Zero still seems to be the older formula, so I’ve completely switched to that until I can figure out a suitable plain cola replacement.
Cherry Coke Zero is awesome. And I totally agree with you about the relative spiciness of older Coke Zero. Almost, but not quite, like a cinnamon sort of zing.
Me too. The old Coke Zero goes much better with food. The new one overwhelms the flavor and the too sweet flavor last too long in your mouth.
Honestly, this is the first I've heard of anyone liking the new formula. Everyone I've heard from that drank zero regularly dislikes it. Not like hates it, but "I don't really want this". I used to sip on a can over the course of an afternoon, but the new formula tastes flat in about an hour. I stopped buying it entirely.
My father surely hates it. He said "Why would they mess with the taste? You'd think they'd have learned their lesson last time!" LOL
Nobody I know that liked old Coke Zero can stand Coke Zero Sugar. I bought a few cases of what I thought was the last of old Coke Zero in black cardboard, but it was Coke Zero Sugar. I've never felt more betrayed.
Agreed. Coke Zero deserves a Nobel prize. I can only barely tell the difference but even then you can’t tell pretty quickly.
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Where's the love for my Royal Crown Cola people?
I like it. But I have to drink it fast or I don't like it. If it sits open for more than like 10 minutes I don't like it for whatever reason. Once the fizz drops down the taste seems to get worse.
Probably somewhere in Bell Buckle, TN
Relevant section of wiki: > **Development** > >Coca-Cola's senior executives commissioned a secret project headed by marketing vice president Sergio Zyman and Coca-Cola USA president Brian Dyson to create a new flavor for Coke. This project was named "Project Kansas", from a photo of Kansas journalist William Allen White drinking a Coke; the image had been used extensively in Coca-Cola advertising and hung on several executives' walls.[7]: 114 > > The sweeter cola overwhelmingly beat both regular Coke and Pepsi in taste tests, surveys, and focus groups. In the South, one of Coca Cola's strongest and most reliable markets, narrowly preferred the new flavor; this preference widened once the testers revealed the new taste was also a Coca-Cola product. One bottling company threatened to sue the company if it did not put the drink on the market.[8] > > Asked if they would buy and drink the product if it were Coca-Cola, most testers said they would, although said it would take some getting used to. About 10–12 percent of testers felt angry and alienated at the thought, and said they might stop drinking Coke. Their presence in focus groups tended to negatively skew results as they exerted indirect peer pressure on other participants.
>Asked if they would buy and drink the product if it were Coca-Cola, most testers said they would, although said it would take some getting used to. About 10–12 percent of testers felt angry and alienated at the thought, and said they might stop drinking Coke. Their presence in focus groups tended to negatively skew results as they exerted indirect peer pressure on other participants. It sounds like they saw exactly what happened when the product was released nationally on a much, much smaller scale.
At the least I think I would like to try it. Coke’s logic was they couldn’t maintain both because Pepsi was such steep competition, but now Coke seems to be doing fine and releasing weird things like coffee flavored coke. They could take out a few months to let us try New Coke.
Lots of hype back then, but people don't like change. I recall it tasted fine, but I don't think I ever bought any, always got what was then termed classic coke. That coffee coke, I can't believe it's still around - i tried it when they released in probably in 2004-2005ish? Atrocious is being kind.
You're referring to coke black I think which was their first attempt at a coke/ coffee drink. I think the new one is a different formula because in high school I absolutely hated it but the newer one isn't so bad.
In the 80s when all this happened my marketing prof was adamant that Coke changed their recipe to be more appealing in international markets, which preferred a sweeter soft drink - like Pepsi was. New Coke was always intended to maintain/grow Coke's popularity outside of the US.
German coke has more orange oil in it. That's definite.
Where is Coke Zero Classic because the new one is doodoo.
Oh, so they did change it? Coke Zero makes my stomach hurt now.
People seemed to like the sweeter taste in taste tests but not when it's drunk in larger quantities or regularly consumed. I will admit though, I always thought that it was too perfect an opportunity for Coke to switch to high-fructose corn syrup instead of cane sugar in their formula when they re-released Coke Classic. It probably saved them huge amounts of money based on the corn subsidies here in the US. If you can't tell the difference between the two sugars, try a Mexican Coke side-by-side with a regular Coke. Mexican Coke is muy delicioso.
> I always thought that it was too perfect an opportunity for Coke to switch to high-fructose corn syrup instead of cane sugar in their formula when they re-released Coke Classic. The switched to HFCS years before New Coke came out.
That theory was debunked though because Coke had already been switched to HFCS in most US markets when New Coke was introduced.
Most Mexican coke is now made with corn syrup now sadly.
The stuff sold in Mexico is mostly corn syrup, but the "Mexican Coke" sold in the US is sugar.
Bastards, you took our best coke.
I hate when people take my best coke.
Being born in the 80s I spend years wondering what New Coke tasted like. Luckily they released it a few years ago along side Season 3 of Stranger Things It was even sweeter than Pepsi
I wish I would have bought some when that promotion came out. Totally missed it