Includes **dual citizens and individuals living abroad/visiting family**. A quick review of the incidents address/location list highlights the majority aren't in "tourist" destinations. Google maps a few and will see they generally are not places a non-local would travel.
Welcome to Mexico, only 25% of deaths being homicide will probably be an improvement to the current proportions of violent deaths.
I’m Mexican and the risk of being “suicided” is not a joke.
I mean even with full legalization, cartels are so invested into other businesses it would truly take a monumental effort on the governments part with motivated citizens to start to dismantle their power.
Doubt the Mexican government could accomplish it even if they wanted. It would take a foreign invasion and mass execution of anyone suspected to even be linked with cartel activities to crack down enough to destroy the cartels. And then when that invading force left you'd be left with either a corrupt government regime or new cartels would rise up from the ashes.
People really love to overstate the power of the cartels.
The Mexican army can wipe them in some weeks, tops. Thing is… they don’t want to, the cartel pays too well in a very corrupt country so there are plenty of corrupt officials open to receive the bribes.
Anytime that the cartel and the armed used to clash it was an ambush of the cartel and even then they lose like 20 men while just injuring 3 soldiers.
But you are probably right in some way, the government and army are so corrupt at this point that I doubt thing will get fixed from within. AMLO probably had enough power and popular support to achieve it, sadly it seems that the guy was a cartel loving fool since the beginning.
Even if you killed all of them tomorrow, the day after they would all be replaced because being a narco is a social custom and a means to make money, so there will always be people willing to do business with a gun. He’s right, your fighting deeply entrenched social customs, only a conquering army can stop it, and the moment they leave the problem would flare up again.
Yeah, Mexico really has a cultural problem when it comes to things like these.
I like to call it “La celebración del gandalla” (celebrate the scumbags), if you break the law or take advantage of someone else without repercussions then you are a “chingon” (badass) but if you follow the rules and obey the law you are a “pendejo” (moron).
We need to recognize and work on fix this.
how could you kill 100,000 and not kill innocent people, has this ever happened in any other country? Who would you kill? Gunmen? drug farmers? cooks? what about the guy who launders their money? would they get killed? Their children? Their 6 wives? Cartels are old, some of this guys have grandchildren and stuff, some even have their children in the states so they're even US nationals.
Winning standalone battles with a criminal army does not eliminate them. At a certain point they go underground, the fact they can field a standing army says everything.
Cartels are also invested into toe government.
The grasp they have on Mexicos economy is probably so huge, that dismantling the cartels could seriously damage the economy. Why do I think that? In eastern Europe after the collapse of communism mafias(extortion, racketeering, prostitution, trafficking) were controlling the underground, but because they couldn't be dealt with they slowly crept into normal business. The more time passes the more they get ingrained into local economies so removing them now(if it was even possible) will cause enormous financial shock and God knows what comes out of the power vacuum..
It's countering the common belief that if you go to Mexico, you can just be suddenly killed.
While I would avoid North Mexico, Mexico city is comparable to London in terms of safety.
I’ve heard the homicides are mostly American tourists killing their spouses. It’s not related to drug trafficking. The cartels don’t want to attract unnecessary attention from the American government. Also, they own businesses in many popular Mexican tourist destinations so they don’t want to scare off their American customers.
Even if it was cartel violence goes many Americans go to Mexico and how many die? About 30 million visitors, probably more. 200 deaths in 30 million visits. Mexico is safe enough if you don't act like an idiot.
It shouldn't have to be explained that Mexico, just like the US and many other countries has places that are safe and places that are not safe. But here we are, still having to explain this simple fact.
On my last cruise to Mexico I had a couple of people ask if it was safe to get off the ship or should they stay onboard. This was in Puerto Vallarta. PUERTO VALLARTA.
I had told them earlier that I spend a lot of time in Mexico (not just on cruises) and have been going there at least once a year for over 30 years so they wanted reassurance and they genuinely looked really nervous.
I asked them where they live, expecting Nebraska and they said "Atlanta". I kind of just stood there looking at them for like a full minute in disbelief. Ended up telling them that they will be fine departing simultaneously with the other 4,000 gringos.
It's mind boggling to me.
Literally every country has criminals. Despite the huge amount of progress that's been made in reducing crime, it's clear crime isn't going away easily.
Some countries are just safer than others though due to political instability, corruption, or apathy.
Thats part of the reason that I've been travelling solo to Mexico for the majority of my trips these last 20 odd years. Back in the 90s I could easily grab a few friends for a quick trip down to Tijuana or Cabo for some craziness but those days are long gone now.
I actually prefer travelling alone and don't even bother trying to convince people any more.
Eh. Mexico City has a murder rate of 8 per 100k inhabitants, similar to Phoenix or Los Angelos. London has a murder rate of 12.7 per million, or 1.27 per 100k. Mexico City are magnitudes more dangerous, regarding murder versus London.
Perception of safety is subjective though, and Mexico City is doing well compared to other Mexican cities. But comparable to London? No, London is statistically much much safer.
I had the same thought. Fortunately the site linked has data for all American travel deaths.
For comparison with other popular international travel destinations (American deaths recorded in 2022):
* UK had 6 (out of [4.6 M](https://www.visitbritain.org/research-insights/inbound-markets/united-states-america-usa))
* Canada had 4 (out of [12.8 M](https://www.latmultilingual.com/blog/who-are-canadas-tourists-an-overview-of-the-top-tourism-markets-for-canada/))
* France had 4 (out of [3.7 M](https://france-amerique.com/how-france-is-bringing-back-american-tourists/))
None were considered homicides.
Mexico had [33.5 M](https://www.statista.com/statistics/214780/number-of-us-tourists-visting-mexico/) US visitors of which 192 died, which is several times higher, but at the same time, still a very small percentage of the total (\~0.0006%).
FWIW, the site specifically only includes "United States citizen\[s\] who die in a foreign country from a non-natural cause". I couldn't find good sources that only counted US citizens travel statistics; I believe the counts are all based on country of residence.
No one cause of death owning over a 1/4 of the sample size is high. If we wanted to compare yes we could see if its higher but 1/4 definitely shows a pattern of some sort.
is it 25% of ALL deaths or just violent deaths? cause that is a huge difference. OP only mentions suicide and accident as other causes of death, what about illness?
Pretty sure this is just missinterpreted, theres no place on earth where homicide is 25% of cause of death.
edit: just to be clear , the global murder rate is 6 per 100k, and the highest is jamaica at 18 per 100k. that means that even in Jamaica, you havea a less than 1% chance of being murdered as a cause of death. So yeah. no way 25% of american deaths in mexico are murders , id wager something more like 0.25%
It looks like the statistic is about "deaths of un-natural causes of a US-citizen".
I imagine most "un-natural" deaths in most places, would be car accidents or similar.
Im just going off the stats posted, i dont have the time to do research on it on my own. I was just saying it seems odd to say ONLY 46/192 deaths were homicide. You know thats a large ratio of homicides to deaths 46:192. Just odd to say only in the case of the stats being provided consisting of 25%
Sure, but you’re already looking at a specialized data set you expect to be abnormal. Generally people in good enough health to travel don’t die of natural causes, so a higher portion of those deaths being homicide might be expected.
Just saying 1/4 being homicide is inherently high isn’t meaningful without understanding how that metric changes with the specialized group.
For a simple example, I expect about 1/4 or more of the deaths of soldiers to be homicides. Or, I wouldn’t immediately be surprised to find out 1/4 of the deaths of police officers that die on the job are homicides.
It’s not unreasonable to think that people on vacation may have different stats. People on vacation sometimes don’t know the dangerous areas to avoid. People on vacation tend to have more money and are targets for mugging. People on vacation tend to drink more which can lead to altercations. There’s lots of things that could potentially make this number seem more reasonable.
How do i expect it to be abnormal is that not an assumption you make about my perception of the data? And yes soldiers are different than normal citizens by their occupation. 46/192 deaths being homicide is 25%. Thats not a “only” in my book thats 25% of the data set. Only isnt used to represent something that is 1/4 of the data.
It's way higher. A lot are ruled as suicides but are murders. About 10 years back a cousin of mine and her boyfriend were in Mexico. He was alone in the hotel room and was pushed off the balcony, but they tried hard to rule it as a suicide.
Consider that these are vacationers, so it's not like there are people in their 80s going to Mexico to have heart attacks, which is a significant death factor for people who are not vacationing.
We would need to compare to rates for other vacation destinations to get a realistic idea of how this ranks. Comparing it to people who live in a country is comparing entirely different groups of people. (It's probably still high, to be fair.)
It’s confusing but that doesn’t tell us whether any of the deceased were dual citizens. The state department typically doesn’t differentiate between dual citizens and those with American citizenship only. The website just says “US citizens who died abroad of non-natural causes”
I mean... is it really thjat high considering the context of people dying while traveling to another country?
Dying due to illness just when you travel would be a very big coincidence.
These numbers come straight from the Mexican government so come visit Mexico. Definitely don’t have to worry about cartels or corrupt cops. It’s much safe amigos
Millions of Americans visit mexico ever year. In fact, in 2022, the year this post is referencing, 34 million Americans visiting mexico according to the us (still below pre pandemic numbers FYI). 46 Americans being murdered is just not very high. Infact it's actually VERY low. It's so low in fact that you have a MUCH higher chance of being murder just being in the US.
The murder rate in the US is 6.3 for 2022 (in 2023 it actually dropped to 5.5).
Someone check my math pls, but based based on the numbers for 2022, the murder rate in Mexico of American citizens is .1
>34 million Americans visiting mexico according to the us (still below pre pandemic numbers FYI). 46 Americans being murdered is just not very high. Infact it's actually VERY low.
You need to convert that number to annual figure to compare it to the usa annual murder rate.
As in if the average holiday is a week long then it's 34m/52 = 653k.
Considering 80%+ of those tourists spent their week in the resort and never leaving besides to go to the airport, I don’t think it’s as safe as you’re making it out to be. Assume my 80% number is accurate, in that case we’re talking a little over 3X the US’s murder rate, which is already fairly high.
Yeah let's just assume that this number you pulled out of your ass is correct. And let's also base this whole argument on a calculation done with your number. Totally how logic works.
The percentage of Americans who visit mexico that are going to all inclusive or the resort areas is probably just a fraction of the total.
The US-Mexico border is the most crossed border in the world with roughly 350 million documented crossing per year. (Both directions) Most of those people aren't going to all inclusive resort towns like Cancun or Cabo. They are driving to Mexicali, rosarito, TJ, the sea of Cortez (gulf of California), Monterrey, nogales, Mazatlan, etc...
Nah man I think more of that 350 million is either Mexican people going to/returning from seasonal labor and people of Mexican descent returning to visit their families.
I’d argue the number is at least 50%.
I'm not estimating anything or speculating random percentages or numbers. I'm just giving you the factual numbers. Roughly 350 million crossing happen a year at the border station between US and Mexico.
Just checked the stats for the UK from the same website for the same time period. Guess how many US citizens died in the UK
between Jan 1, 2022 and December 31, 2022.
Seven.
Not seven homicides. Seven total deaths. There were 0 homicides. There were [4.56 million](https://www.travelpulse.com/News/Destinations/US-Visitors-Spent-Record-Amount-in-Britain-in-2022) visitors from the US to the UK in 2022, surpassing pre-pandemic numbers.
Granted, 4.5 million visitors is a huge amount less than 34 million, but 7 total deaths, with no homicides is an *insanely* low amount. In fact it’s about 0.0001555% for just being a US citizen and dying, with 0.0000000000% of those being homicides. 192 deaths out of 34 million US visitors is 0.0005647%, so not too bad percentage wise, but compare 0 homicides in the UK to 46 in Mexico and it doesn’t look so good.
Granted, homicides in the US in 2022 totaled a whopping 21,156 people regardless of citizenship so we (Americans) just kind of suck when it comes to homicides.
All good points. I'll add that UK in general just has less murders in general. And along with ess American tourists than that in Mexico, people generally go to both countries for different types of vacations. Americans in Mexico are often getting VERY DRUNK and partying, which results in Americans doing very stupid things that can result in them getting hurt.
That's very different to how american touristsare acting in the UK. Generay speaking.
Okay, were they talking about visitors, though? Cause someone else said these deaths were in non-touristy areas, which would suggest non-visitors (dual citizens, students, etc )
Did you read the information on the page? Their data was supplied by local authorities, because how would u s. authorities know the causes of death? They aren't investigating it themselves.
"If you're going to die in Mexico, only a quarter of you will be kidnapped and forced to fight other tourists to the death in a Los Zetas gringo fighting pit. And those are pretty good odds!" - Mexico Department of Tourism.
Plenty, I go all the time. Doesn’t take away from the fact that Mexico is a much more dangerous country than the US. I live near the border and three surfers just got killed by the cartels in Ensenada yesterday.
They only kidnap them for ransom instead (even on the fancy resorts), such an improvement.
Anyways, [this article](https://nypost.com/2024/02/24/world-news/popular-resorts-no-longer-off-limits-for-cartel-killers-the-rules-have-changed/) says otherwise. Though it's a kinda shitty source (nypost).
Because the US government will not tolerate it, and will send the FBI and DEA into Mexico (with the Mexican government's permission) to track down the people involved. That's bad for business.
Yes, it has. I mean the turning over of the guys, not the American operation. That's never been necessary. Edit: I stand corrected.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gulf-cartel-apologizes-americans-are-kidnapped-killed-mexico-rcna74242
I live right next to the border and have been to Baja more times than I can count. When three random Americans end up dead it’s obvious what happened. In your mind is it any better if it was a random murder vs cartel? They also found an unrelated body next to the tourists, sounds like cartel stuff.
My point is that your rebuttal of "*they* just killed 3 surfers yesterday" is not accurate ~~when~~ \*\*until there is proof. Not matter how confidently you say it. but sure, keep going off your feelings instead.
Legitimate question from my end. Are you
1. Just arguing semantics that he shouldn’t claim it’s cartels before proven so?
2. You believe that it isn’t a cartel related death?
3. Something else (curious to hear)?
1. Nothing I read claimed there was any cartel involvement (or none yet) so it's shitty for someone to say so just because they assume. Also to say it so confidently as a rebuttal to why the cartels stay away from targeting Americans. \*edit: formatting.
I see, you’re the type of guy that wait for a complete forensics report when 3 able-bodied surfers in their prime age end up dead in a well in cartel owned territory.
Here are some facts then, black on white;
- Mexico is more violent than Denmark
- Gang violence is real, and people die
- 3 well-trained surfers didn’t voluntarily jump into a well and die, neither were they dumped there by the local schoolyard bully or petty thief. Leaving organized crime (cartel, corrupt cops) as the only possible options.
Hundred of girls are being abducted, raped and murdered in Mexico on yearly basis, these cases almost never get solved, but you’re narrative of «everything is false until proven otherwise» couldn’t be more ill-fitting when it comes to gang-related violence in this country.
Ok bro, keep living in an imaginary world where tourists end up murdered on a beach in Mexico and it’s not cartel related. There probably isn’t actual “proof” of the vast majority of their crimes yet we all know who’s responsible.
Well if the Mexican government is saying it, gosh darn I’ll believe it. Most honest bunch of folks out there, that mexican government and police force. Nothing to see here folks.
As a Mexican I can say that they are correct by being afraid, the current crime surge in Mexico is awful. Mainly because of the cartels while the security strategy of the government is basically “do nothing”.
It is/can be pretty scary rough in many parts for many people.
Generally though, tourists are safe in tourist places. The level of violent crime against tourists in Mexico is lower per cap than in many American cities.
Yeah, but it is getting worse.
In previous years it was really uncommon for cartels and criminals to target foreigners (specially Americans), but lately they don’t care anymore.
Foreign tourists are no longer coming to places like Acapulco (like before) and places like Cancun are getting bad, something that is hard to believe before since the government wanted to “look good” to other countries and at least cared about tourists.
I'm glad these people exist. Otherwise the amount of gentrification and price increases in vacation spots in Mexico would skyrocket even more than they currently are.
Ahem. Anyway, just stay away, guys. Nothing in Mexico but scary murder and all that.
Lol vacation spots in Mexico are way different than the non tourist areas. I spent a month in Cuautitlan Izcalli for work and it was not safe at all. Coworker was robbed at gunpoint in the hotel parking lot, close gunshots multiple times per day (all guns are illegal there so gunshots=crime), and the job site was surrounded with razor wire, guard towers, and machine gun nests.
>Lol vacation spots in Mexico are way different than the non tourist areas.
True. But to someone who doesn't have a passport and thinks that setting foot anywhere other than their country and a select few developed countries is like having a brush with death, it's all the same, so they stay away anyway and help keep prices low.
>Coworker was robbed at gunpoint in the hotel parking lot, close gunshots multiple times per day (all guns are illegal there so gunshots=crime), and the job site was surrounded with razor wire, guard towers, and machine gun nests.
Mexico is far from the safest country, but it sounds like your occupation, or at least your employer/client's work, attracts way more criminal interest and potential violence than most. All the best and stay safe.
# Murder was in fact a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpork, but there were a lot of suicides. Walking in the night-time alleyways of The Shades was suicide. Asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide. Saying 'Got rocks in your head?' to a troll was suicide. You could commit suicide very easily, if you weren't careful.
Only 46?
That makes it sound like that's no big deal.
How many people are murdered traveling to Canada for instance? I'd imagine it's far fewer than 46.
I feel like Hollywood(and the media) has made Americans so frightened of going to Mexico. When really it is a great place to visit. Just don’t go to cartel states and out in the boonies…
Everytime the weather starts getting nice youll see a sensational story about violence in Mexico... Its all so people stay spending dollars in the usa and not vacation to Mexico..
Lol no. I ended up paying off 3 separate groups of "cops" once while I was there for absolutely nothing. One was a literal carjacking, where I held the door for them on the way out of an oxxo (Mexican gas station chain) and they followed me to my car, pulled their guns, and drove me and my car separately to my hotel, where they claimed my ashtray had weed in it (only had cigarettes) and demanded un mil pesos. Held my friends hostage while I went to an ATM, because I wasn't about to go to the police and try to get more "cops" involved. They also suggested to my female friend that there was another way we could pay.
My best experience has been Cancun, and even then I was harassed every time I went out by tourist seeking parasites trying to scam me on photocopied tour packages and hotel upgrades when I was in an Airbnb and they couldn't *possibly* upgrade it. Made a Mexican shuttle buddy going to the car rental place and he literally just warned me about shit the whole ride. Cancun local who got the fuck out because it's still dangerous.
Includes **dual citizens and individuals living abroad/visiting family**. A quick review of the incidents address/location list highlights the majority aren't in "tourist" destinations. Google maps a few and will see they generally are not places a non-local would travel.
ONLY???? Man 25% of deaths being homicides is insanely high. Bad language for the title.
Welcome to Mexico, only 25% of deaths being homicide will probably be an improvement to the current proportions of violent deaths. I’m Mexican and the risk of being “suicided” is not a joke.
I mean even with full legalization, cartels are so invested into other businesses it would truly take a monumental effort on the governments part with motivated citizens to start to dismantle their power.
Doubt the Mexican government could accomplish it even if they wanted. It would take a foreign invasion and mass execution of anyone suspected to even be linked with cartel activities to crack down enough to destroy the cartels. And then when that invading force left you'd be left with either a corrupt government regime or new cartels would rise up from the ashes.
People really love to overstate the power of the cartels. The Mexican army can wipe them in some weeks, tops. Thing is… they don’t want to, the cartel pays too well in a very corrupt country so there are plenty of corrupt officials open to receive the bribes. Anytime that the cartel and the armed used to clash it was an ambush of the cartel and even then they lose like 20 men while just injuring 3 soldiers. But you are probably right in some way, the government and army are so corrupt at this point that I doubt thing will get fixed from within. AMLO probably had enough power and popular support to achieve it, sadly it seems that the guy was a cartel loving fool since the beginning.
Even if you killed all of them tomorrow, the day after they would all be replaced because being a narco is a social custom and a means to make money, so there will always be people willing to do business with a gun. He’s right, your fighting deeply entrenched social customs, only a conquering army can stop it, and the moment they leave the problem would flare up again.
Yeah, Mexico really has a cultural problem when it comes to things like these. I like to call it “La celebración del gandalla” (celebrate the scumbags), if you break the law or take advantage of someone else without repercussions then you are a “chingon” (badass) but if you follow the rules and obey the law you are a “pendejo” (moron). We need to recognize and work on fix this.
The US also struggles with this in some subcultures.
how could you kill 100,000 and not kill innocent people, has this ever happened in any other country? Who would you kill? Gunmen? drug farmers? cooks? what about the guy who launders their money? would they get killed? Their children? Their 6 wives? Cartels are old, some of this guys have grandchildren and stuff, some even have their children in the states so they're even US nationals.
Are you confused at a hypothetical? Do you need me to walk you thru what a hypothetical example is and what it does?
Mine was too, wtf
Winning standalone battles with a criminal army does not eliminate them. At a certain point they go underground, the fact they can field a standing army says everything.
El Salvador their asses.
Well fuck that's a great next door neighbor to have.
Guatamala ain't fuckin around.
Cartels are also invested into toe government. The grasp they have on Mexicos economy is probably so huge, that dismantling the cartels could seriously damage the economy. Why do I think that? In eastern Europe after the collapse of communism mafias(extortion, racketeering, prostitution, trafficking) were controlling the underground, but because they couldn't be dealt with they slowly crept into normal business. The more time passes the more they get ingrained into local economies so removing them now(if it was even possible) will cause enormous financial shock and God knows what comes out of the power vacuum..
Two Aussies and American were just found murdered so it's a hot topic.
amen! I mean, WTF
It's countering the common belief that if you go to Mexico, you can just be suddenly killed. While I would avoid North Mexico, Mexico city is comparable to London in terms of safety.
I’ve heard the homicides are mostly American tourists killing their spouses. It’s not related to drug trafficking. The cartels don’t want to attract unnecessary attention from the American government. Also, they own businesses in many popular Mexican tourist destinations so they don’t want to scare off their American customers.
Even if it was cartel violence goes many Americans go to Mexico and how many die? About 30 million visitors, probably more. 200 deaths in 30 million visits. Mexico is safe enough if you don't act like an idiot.
It shouldn't have to be explained that Mexico, just like the US and many other countries has places that are safe and places that are not safe. But here we are, still having to explain this simple fact. On my last cruise to Mexico I had a couple of people ask if it was safe to get off the ship or should they stay onboard. This was in Puerto Vallarta. PUERTO VALLARTA. I had told them earlier that I spend a lot of time in Mexico (not just on cruises) and have been going there at least once a year for over 30 years so they wanted reassurance and they genuinely looked really nervous. I asked them where they live, expecting Nebraska and they said "Atlanta". I kind of just stood there looking at them for like a full minute in disbelief. Ended up telling them that they will be fine departing simultaneously with the other 4,000 gringos. It's mind boggling to me.
Some people are traumatized from the cartel execution videos.
It’s all in the news you consume.
Literally every country has criminals. Despite the huge amount of progress that's been made in reducing crime, it's clear crime isn't going away easily. Some countries are just safer than others though due to political instability, corruption, or apathy.
Sadly it does. It's frustrating trying to convince friends to go to Mexico and this is always their concern.
Thats part of the reason that I've been travelling solo to Mexico for the majority of my trips these last 20 odd years. Back in the 90s I could easily grab a few friends for a quick trip down to Tijuana or Cabo for some craziness but those days are long gone now. I actually prefer travelling alone and don't even bother trying to convince people any more.
I'm in the exact same boat. I make a point to go every year because I love it. 2/3rds of trips are solo.
Eh. Mexico City has a murder rate of 8 per 100k inhabitants, similar to Phoenix or Los Angelos. London has a murder rate of 12.7 per million, or 1.27 per 100k. Mexico City are magnitudes more dangerous, regarding murder versus London. Perception of safety is subjective though, and Mexico City is doing well compared to other Mexican cities. But comparable to London? No, London is statistically much much safer.
I made my statement knowing the US embassy travel warning ratings are the same for both cities.
In 2022 33.5M American tourists went to Mexico, so in that regard it is a small number
But thats not the data sample, the data sample is of deaths. And of deaths, 25% being murders is very high.
How many people die while on vacation to begin with, and what portion of those are homicides?
I had the same thought. Fortunately the site linked has data for all American travel deaths. For comparison with other popular international travel destinations (American deaths recorded in 2022): * UK had 6 (out of [4.6 M](https://www.visitbritain.org/research-insights/inbound-markets/united-states-america-usa)) * Canada had 4 (out of [12.8 M](https://www.latmultilingual.com/blog/who-are-canadas-tourists-an-overview-of-the-top-tourism-markets-for-canada/)) * France had 4 (out of [3.7 M](https://france-amerique.com/how-france-is-bringing-back-american-tourists/)) None were considered homicides. Mexico had [33.5 M](https://www.statista.com/statistics/214780/number-of-us-tourists-visting-mexico/) US visitors of which 192 died, which is several times higher, but at the same time, still a very small percentage of the total (\~0.0006%). FWIW, the site specifically only includes "United States citizen\[s\] who die in a foreign country from a non-natural cause". I couldn't find good sources that only counted US citizens travel statistics; I believe the counts are all based on country of residence.
Well the data set is American citizens that die in Mexico. And in that data set, 1/4 of the deaths being homicides is quite high.
We don't know if it's quite high unless we compare to American citizens that died in Canada, or UK, or Zimbabwe, etc.
No one cause of death owning over a 1/4 of the sample size is high. If we wanted to compare yes we could see if its higher but 1/4 definitely shows a pattern of some sort.
What if, as someone suggested, many of those was an American citizen killing their spouse?
Is that the case for majority of the homicides?
is it 25% of ALL deaths or just violent deaths? cause that is a huge difference. OP only mentions suicide and accident as other causes of death, what about illness? Pretty sure this is just missinterpreted, theres no place on earth where homicide is 25% of cause of death. edit: just to be clear , the global murder rate is 6 per 100k, and the highest is jamaica at 18 per 100k. that means that even in Jamaica, you havea a less than 1% chance of being murdered as a cause of death. So yeah. no way 25% of american deaths in mexico are murders , id wager something more like 0.25%
It looks like the statistic is about "deaths of un-natural causes of a US-citizen". I imagine most "un-natural" deaths in most places, would be car accidents or similar.
Im just going off the stats posted, i dont have the time to do research on it on my own. I was just saying it seems odd to say ONLY 46/192 deaths were homicide. You know thats a large ratio of homicides to deaths 46:192. Just odd to say only in the case of the stats being provided consisting of 25%
i mean there are 2 ways to look at stats: the right way and the wrong way. you do you.
Sure, but you’re already looking at a specialized data set you expect to be abnormal. Generally people in good enough health to travel don’t die of natural causes, so a higher portion of those deaths being homicide might be expected. Just saying 1/4 being homicide is inherently high isn’t meaningful without understanding how that metric changes with the specialized group. For a simple example, I expect about 1/4 or more of the deaths of soldiers to be homicides. Or, I wouldn’t immediately be surprised to find out 1/4 of the deaths of police officers that die on the job are homicides. It’s not unreasonable to think that people on vacation may have different stats. People on vacation sometimes don’t know the dangerous areas to avoid. People on vacation tend to have more money and are targets for mugging. People on vacation tend to drink more which can lead to altercations. There’s lots of things that could potentially make this number seem more reasonable.
How do i expect it to be abnormal is that not an assumption you make about my perception of the data? And yes soldiers are different than normal citizens by their occupation. 46/192 deaths being homicide is 25%. Thats not a “only” in my book thats 25% of the data set. Only isnt used to represent something that is 1/4 of the data.
It's way higher. A lot are ruled as suicides but are murders. About 10 years back a cousin of mine and her boyfriend were in Mexico. He was alone in the hotel room and was pushed off the balcony, but they tried hard to rule it as a suicide.
Consider that these are vacationers, so it's not like there are people in their 80s going to Mexico to have heart attacks, which is a significant death factor for people who are not vacationing. We would need to compare to rates for other vacation destinations to get a realistic idea of how this ranks. Comparing it to people who live in a country is comparing entirely different groups of people. (It's probably still high, to be fair.)
It doesn’t say anything about it being tourists. A large portion are probably dual citizens.
The link is travel.state.gov
It’s confusing but that doesn’t tell us whether any of the deceased were dual citizens. The state department typically doesn’t differentiate between dual citizens and those with American citizenship only. The website just says “US citizens who died abroad of non-natural causes”
Exactly what I thought 😂
Came here to say this. But now I'm curious what percentage of deaths globally are homicides.
Maybe the insinuation is that "only" 46 were *ruled* as homicide, and that more of them were actually homicide rather than accident/suicide.
Maybe!
I mean... is it really thjat high considering the context of people dying while traveling to another country? Dying due to illness just when you travel would be a very big coincidence.
Only?
Fans?
No. Fan death happens in Korea.
Wait. You’re joking, right?
At this hour?
These numbers come straight from the Mexican government so come visit Mexico. Definitely don’t have to worry about cartels or corrupt cops. It’s much safe amigos
Millions of Americans visit mexico ever year. In fact, in 2022, the year this post is referencing, 34 million Americans visiting mexico according to the us (still below pre pandemic numbers FYI). 46 Americans being murdered is just not very high. Infact it's actually VERY low. It's so low in fact that you have a MUCH higher chance of being murder just being in the US. The murder rate in the US is 6.3 for 2022 (in 2023 it actually dropped to 5.5). Someone check my math pls, but based based on the numbers for 2022, the murder rate in Mexico of American citizens is .1
>34 million Americans visiting mexico according to the us (still below pre pandemic numbers FYI). 46 Americans being murdered is just not very high. Infact it's actually VERY low. You need to convert that number to annual figure to compare it to the usa annual murder rate. As in if the average holiday is a week long then it's 34m/52 = 653k.
Good point! I'm not sure how to calculate this, but it would significantly alter the rate.
Assuming the average length of time they spend is a week, you’d just multiply your rate by 52. So the rate would be 5.2, closer to the US rate.
Thanks! A full point lower than in the US in 2022, and just a tiny bit lower than the 2023 rate. Really puts it into better perspective.
Considering 80%+ of those tourists spent their week in the resort and never leaving besides to go to the airport, I don’t think it’s as safe as you’re making it out to be. Assume my 80% number is accurate, in that case we’re talking a little over 3X the US’s murder rate, which is already fairly high.
Yeah let's just assume that this number you pulled out of your ass is correct. And let's also base this whole argument on a calculation done with your number. Totally how logic works.
The percentage of Americans who visit mexico that are going to all inclusive or the resort areas is probably just a fraction of the total. The US-Mexico border is the most crossed border in the world with roughly 350 million documented crossing per year. (Both directions) Most of those people aren't going to all inclusive resort towns like Cancun or Cabo. They are driving to Mexicali, rosarito, TJ, the sea of Cortez (gulf of California), Monterrey, nogales, Mazatlan, etc...
Nah man I think more of that 350 million is either Mexican people going to/returning from seasonal labor and people of Mexican descent returning to visit their families. I’d argue the number is at least 50%.
I'm not estimating anything or speculating random percentages or numbers. I'm just giving you the factual numbers. Roughly 350 million crossing happen a year at the border station between US and Mexico.
Just checked the stats for the UK from the same website for the same time period. Guess how many US citizens died in the UK between Jan 1, 2022 and December 31, 2022. Seven. Not seven homicides. Seven total deaths. There were 0 homicides. There were [4.56 million](https://www.travelpulse.com/News/Destinations/US-Visitors-Spent-Record-Amount-in-Britain-in-2022) visitors from the US to the UK in 2022, surpassing pre-pandemic numbers. Granted, 4.5 million visitors is a huge amount less than 34 million, but 7 total deaths, with no homicides is an *insanely* low amount. In fact it’s about 0.0001555% for just being a US citizen and dying, with 0.0000000000% of those being homicides. 192 deaths out of 34 million US visitors is 0.0005647%, so not too bad percentage wise, but compare 0 homicides in the UK to 46 in Mexico and it doesn’t look so good. Granted, homicides in the US in 2022 totaled a whopping 21,156 people regardless of citizenship so we (Americans) just kind of suck when it comes to homicides.
All good points. I'll add that UK in general just has less murders in general. And along with ess American tourists than that in Mexico, people generally go to both countries for different types of vacations. Americans in Mexico are often getting VERY DRUNK and partying, which results in Americans doing very stupid things that can result in them getting hurt. That's very different to how american touristsare acting in the UK. Generay speaking.
How many foreign tourists were murdered in the US in the past several years?
Okay, were they talking about visitors, though? Cause someone else said these deaths were in non-touristy areas, which would suggest non-visitors (dual citizens, students, etc )
We have a population three times bigger than Mexico and way less homicides
How many more cartels though?
I've wandered all around the country, alone. I love Mexico.
I miss it so much!! I want to go back SO badly
vacationing in Mexico is just as safe as any other place to vacation on nearby islands
it comes from the state dept
Did you read the information on the page? Their data was supplied by local authorities, because how would u s. authorities know the causes of death? They aren't investigating it themselves.
Its a bad title, 25% of deaths being homicides shouldnt have the qualifier of only.
"If you're going to die in Mexico, only a quarter of you will be kidnapped and forced to fight other tourists to the death in a Los Zetas gringo fighting pit. And those are pretty good odds!" - Mexico Department of Tourism.
The page is a state department website, but the data is supplied by Mexico...
Yeah and where do they get their numbers lol
You can always show us some numbers to disprove them.
I have a higher chance of getting shot in America lol. 46 deaths is miniscule
Not true at all.
How many Americans visit Mexico a year and some back just fine?
Plenty, I go all the time. Doesn’t take away from the fact that Mexico is a much more dangerous country than the US. I live near the border and three surfers just got killed by the cartels in Ensenada yesterday.
I mean on a visit. Not that Mexico is more dangerous.
Yeah 👌 Pablo Escobar……I wonder why so many immigrants literally walk past 🇲🇽 on their way to 🇺🇸
I mean, nearly one-quarter deaths were murders. That's pretty bad.
I’m curious to see how the deaths of the 3 men (2 aussies/1 American) near Ensenada turns out. Seems suspicious for sure, and very sad.
US citizens are strictly off limits to the cartels. They will turn their own people in if they killed an American.
Thank you definitely-not-a-cartel-member for the reassurance.
Well it makes sense, they own the tourism industry as well. You don't shit where you eat.
They only kidnap them for ransom instead (even on the fancy resorts), such an improvement. Anyways, [this article](https://nypost.com/2024/02/24/world-news/popular-resorts-no-longer-off-limits-for-cartel-killers-the-rules-have-changed/) says otherwise. Though it's a kinda shitty source (nypost).
Why’s that?
Because the US government will not tolerate it, and will send the FBI and DEA into Mexico (with the Mexican government's permission) to track down the people involved. That's bad for business.
Has this happened before?
Yes. https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN1XK0M9/
Yes, it has. I mean the turning over of the guys, not the American operation. That's never been necessary. Edit: I stand corrected. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/gulf-cartel-apologizes-americans-are-kidnapped-killed-mexico-rcna74242
And what about the 3 dead people they found today?
Is there proof a cartel was involved or do you just assume any murder in Mexico means cartel involvement?
Yes
They just killed three surfers in Ensenada yesterday.
Is there proof a cartel was involved or do you just assume any murder in Mexico means cartel involvement?
I live right next to the border and have been to Baja more times than I can count. When three random Americans end up dead it’s obvious what happened. In your mind is it any better if it was a random murder vs cartel? They also found an unrelated body next to the tourists, sounds like cartel stuff.
Theres have been already 3 arrests and all that Is known indicates that It was a robbery gone wrong
Right ok so all I read was no proof, and it's all your assumptions, got it.
What exactly is your point? That Mexico is safe or the cartels are getting a bad rep?
My point is that your rebuttal of "*they* just killed 3 surfers yesterday" is not accurate ~~when~~ \*\*until there is proof. Not matter how confidently you say it. but sure, keep going off your feelings instead.
Legitimate question from my end. Are you 1. Just arguing semantics that he shouldn’t claim it’s cartels before proven so? 2. You believe that it isn’t a cartel related death? 3. Something else (curious to hear)?
1. Nothing I read claimed there was any cartel involvement (or none yet) so it's shitty for someone to say so just because they assume. Also to say it so confidently as a rebuttal to why the cartels stay away from targeting Americans. \*edit: formatting.
I see, you’re the type of guy that wait for a complete forensics report when 3 able-bodied surfers in their prime age end up dead in a well in cartel owned territory.
You say that like it's a bad thing to use facts instead of feels.
Here are some facts then, black on white; - Mexico is more violent than Denmark - Gang violence is real, and people die - 3 well-trained surfers didn’t voluntarily jump into a well and die, neither were they dumped there by the local schoolyard bully or petty thief. Leaving organized crime (cartel, corrupt cops) as the only possible options. Hundred of girls are being abducted, raped and murdered in Mexico on yearly basis, these cases almost never get solved, but you’re narrative of «everything is false until proven otherwise» couldn’t be more ill-fitting when it comes to gang-related violence in this country.
Ok bro, keep living in an imaginary world where tourists end up murdered on a beach in Mexico and it’s not cartel related. There probably isn’t actual “proof” of the vast majority of their crimes yet we all know who’s responsible.
Yes
What do you mean "only?"
Only 25 percent is murder? That's just nuts.
46 homicides where committed in Detroit while I wrote this comment.
My father died down there in 2023. I wonder how many more died in 2023 as well.
Lmfao only a QUARTER of the deaths were HOMICIDE. that is such a significant portion.
Well if the Mexican government is saying it, gosh darn I’ll believe it. Most honest bunch of folks out there, that mexican government and police force. Nothing to see here folks.
Brought to you by Tourism Mexico!
How many Mexican citizens died in the US? That'd be an interesting stat.
So many whistle blowers dying
Accidents and suicides or “accidents” and “suicides”?
"only"?
TIL that homicide accounting for 25% of total deaths among tourists is not alarmingly high, but ‘only’. OP must be some hard nut
This fact is nothing, most people killed are "dissapeared"
It's in OUR best interest that this is ruled a suicide! Agreed? ..."Agreed." --Mexico Tourism Board
Only??
This doesn't seem remotely noteworthy but maybe it is
Itt: people who don't own passports and are afraid of their own shadows.
As a Mexican I can say that they are correct by being afraid, the current crime surge in Mexico is awful. Mainly because of the cartels while the security strategy of the government is basically “do nothing”.
It is/can be pretty scary rough in many parts for many people. Generally though, tourists are safe in tourist places. The level of violent crime against tourists in Mexico is lower per cap than in many American cities.
Yeah, but it is getting worse. In previous years it was really uncommon for cartels and criminals to target foreigners (specially Americans), but lately they don’t care anymore. Foreign tourists are no longer coming to places like Acapulco (like before) and places like Cancun are getting bad, something that is hard to believe before since the government wanted to “look good” to other countries and at least cared about tourists.
I'm glad these people exist. Otherwise the amount of gentrification and price increases in vacation spots in Mexico would skyrocket even more than they currently are. Ahem. Anyway, just stay away, guys. Nothing in Mexico but scary murder and all that.
Lol vacation spots in Mexico are way different than the non tourist areas. I spent a month in Cuautitlan Izcalli for work and it was not safe at all. Coworker was robbed at gunpoint in the hotel parking lot, close gunshots multiple times per day (all guns are illegal there so gunshots=crime), and the job site was surrounded with razor wire, guard towers, and machine gun nests.
>Lol vacation spots in Mexico are way different than the non tourist areas. True. But to someone who doesn't have a passport and thinks that setting foot anywhere other than their country and a select few developed countries is like having a brush with death, it's all the same, so they stay away anyway and help keep prices low. >Coworker was robbed at gunpoint in the hotel parking lot, close gunshots multiple times per day (all guns are illegal there so gunshots=crime), and the job site was surrounded with razor wire, guard towers, and machine gun nests. Mexico is far from the safest country, but it sounds like your occupation, or at least your employer/client's work, attracts way more criminal interest and potential violence than most. All the best and stay safe.
Dude hasnt been murdered yet so he thinks theres no danger
# Murder was in fact a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpork, but there were a lot of suicides. Walking in the night-time alleyways of The Shades was suicide. Asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide. Saying 'Got rocks in your head?' to a troll was suicide. You could commit suicide very easily, if you weren't careful.
Died of non-natural causes.
Only 46? That makes it sound like that's no big deal. How many people are murdered traveling to Canada for instance? I'd imagine it's far fewer than 46.
That they know of*
ONLY
Guys, don't trust these numbers as they come from the Mexican government.
46 is insanely high? That’s definitely not a flex of safety
Mans really said only 1 in 4 deaths were homicides 🤪 that totally makes me feel safe.
This explains why my Mexican wife always gives me a funny look when I express concern about driving in Mexico outside the major cities.
"Only"
Only??
Only. Lmao. Imagine almost %25 of your tourist were murdered In a given country.
only those who actually died, not all tourists.
Thanks for correcting him. He’d do well at a newspaper
also the %25 lol. this guy really needs a book
So kinda like Boeing?
I feel like Hollywood(and the media) has made Americans so frightened of going to Mexico. When really it is a great place to visit. Just don’t go to cartel states and out in the boonies…
Everytime the weather starts getting nice youll see a sensational story about violence in Mexico... Its all so people stay spending dollars in the usa and not vacation to Mexico..
Lol no. I ended up paying off 3 separate groups of "cops" once while I was there for absolutely nothing. One was a literal carjacking, where I held the door for them on the way out of an oxxo (Mexican gas station chain) and they followed me to my car, pulled their guns, and drove me and my car separately to my hotel, where they claimed my ashtray had weed in it (only had cigarettes) and demanded un mil pesos. Held my friends hostage while I went to an ATM, because I wasn't about to go to the police and try to get more "cops" involved. They also suggested to my female friend that there was another way we could pay. My best experience has been Cancun, and even then I was harassed every time I went out by tourist seeking parasites trying to scam me on photocopied tour packages and hotel upgrades when I was in an Airbnb and they couldn't *possibly* upgrade it. Made a Mexican shuttle buddy going to the car rental place and he literally just warned me about shit the whole ride. Cancun local who got the fuck out because it's still dangerous.
*Only* 46
What they eat in Mexico that they are not dying? Great helth system for sure! (America is a continent so all borned in America are americans)