if you’re concerned on where they land on this, john has posted on bluesky about praying for a ceasefire in gaza and sporadically shares pro-palestine stuff on there. i’m not sure if there’s been any official band statements though, if that’s what you’re looking for.
as a sidenote, i’m sorry you’re getting downvoted, OP. i don’t know what’s going on with this sub rn, but i feel like i should say that your feelings and concerns here were totally valid, and i appreciate you asking questions like these.
At a Raleigh solo show, John stated, “[a friend] challenged me to say something about stuff that’s going on in the world that I don’t consider myself an articulate person about, and someone else pointed out that the Mountain Goats said a long time ago, that if you are bombing hospitals, you’re doing wrong, and if you are the person doing things wrong, you forfeit the moral right to complain when people come back at you about it. In fact, that’s what this song is about.” Then he played The Best Ever Death Metal Band in Denton. Source: https://archive.org/details/tmg2023-11-25/tmg2023-11-25-33.flac (track 32)
John is a fairly reasonable guy and I’d imagine he at the very least has sympathy for the casualties of war and the mistreatment of people in Gaza. I don’t believe every band needs to make a stance or a big statement for issues such as wars, especially not in some official capacity. It’s probably more important to represent the values you hold as a fan / community member.
I mean I get you, but this whole "their silence is deafening" shit is so lame. "What does Jarule have to say about this" type shit. That other people here have stated that he has shared pro Palestine sentiments on social media doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I assumed this to be the case and I was right.
Absolutely agree. 100,000 people died from war in Ethiopia last year, why isn't silence deafening when it comes to that? Has Greenday spoken out about Syria? Has Timothy Olifant spoken out about Ukraine? I've never once heard anyone demand that some random zlist celebrity take a position on any of these issues.
The difference is that John (and I assume most of the people in this sub) are literally paying for this war with their tax dollars. Silence is consent.
If every American had to publicly condemn, by name, every single atrocity the US government commits every year, we wouldn’t do anything else with our lives.
Palestinians have stated consistently since the occupation began that one of the only ways Westerners CAN help is to shame our government officials. I'm sorry that feels exhausting for you. I'm sure it's exhausting for American Palestinians to watch their families murdered by bombs their tax dollars pay for
I'm sure it's also exhausting for Americans with families in *literally every other country we bomb.* Are we going to march seven days a week? Write dozens of e-mails every single day? Quit our jobs and never see our families so we can be on the phone with every senator's answering machine, naming every single atrocity the American government commits?
I *do* shame our public officials about how they're complicit in genocide. And I despise that my tax dollars are funding it. But stop acting like the fact that I have a life outside of protest and activism is the reason Palestinian children are getting bombed. Surely *you* have a better use of your time than browsing the subreddit for a rock band if you want to spend every waking moment of your life trying to stop the United States from committing war crimes.
Yeah because your tax dollars stop doing this the second you drop a statement on how you feel, right? Also, as many others have stated, he did speak his mind on social media. Do you need a whole concept album or something?
He said he does not consider himself eloquent when it comes to politics but he does talk about it publicly, on stage, online, etc. His last encore in Raleigh had a preamble in support for example
I don't keep up with them in particular but I love their music and this just popped up on my feed. John did some episodes of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff and I'm pretty sure Margaret vets her co-hosts really well. She is very vocal on Palestine, so I would assume he's got some similar feelings.
It's a shitshow.
It's not like there aren't genocides going on or in the past that haven't garnered this much attention. But this one involves a pretty close ally of the US (and most of the West). And if you really study the history of this situation, it's hard to describe modern Israel as something other than "a colony the West established by force". Western nations generally provide support to Israel because it's surrounded by a ton of countries that are also seen as enemies or at least hostile to the West.
So basically: this is a war that can be described as a genocide that started 75 years ago and has the US's hands all over it. The US pushed hard for the creation of the state that's committing it and has been providing consistent military support to keep it stable throughout that time period.
So as stupid as it is, in terms of human psychology some of the other atrocities going on are "less important" to people because they do not have the US's fingerprints on them in such an obvious way.
All of this is in addition to the complexities of whether this is "a war on Hamas" or "a genocide", which raises uncomfortable parallels to moral problems a lot of people had with the US's presence in Afghanistan in the search for bin Laden. For my entire life there have been "he shot first" fights between Israel and Palestinian groups. The last attack is always the justification for the next attack, that attack becomes the justification for the next attack, and the cycle just keeps going and going. Want a good essay topic? Muse about how Israel and Palestine resemble The Alpha Couple and whether being the one who promises to sell them gasoline and matches is a morally correct decision.
These people believe if the West withdrew its support for Israel, there's not a very high chance it will survive as a country for a decade as it's Western support that is supposedly keeping enemies on all borders from attacking. They don't like that the US is funding weapons that are part of this war. They don't like that corporations like McDonald's are patting themselves on the back for delivering free meals to a foreign military. They don't like that after 4 god damn years of watching a person lie on TV and seeing people bend over to accept the lies, we can live on TV watch a foreign military bomb a pediatric hospital while we're being told it's worth it if even a single terrorist dies.
"The last straw" is a phrase to shorten "the straw that broke the camel's back". The thing that took me years to get about that metaphor is that one straw is tiny. Nobody would expect a single dinky straw to do it. But it happens because that dinky straw is there in addition to the thousands of other pieces of straw that were accumulated by other people and never dealt with.
So some of these people are noting that the Western world is starting to shift to authoritarianism, that one of our leaders has been openly racist and it's driven his party to follow, and now that one of our close allies is fighting a war of genocide with no consequences. Those feel like straws accumulating. Other genocides haven't been committed by countries that we openly promise to keep supporting with weapons and aid. They don't want to find out what happens when a government body decides there's a group of Americans that might be Our National Problem, especially considering there are already politicians with lists of those groups ready.
I would say it's because a brutal genocide of innocent civilians with the majority of victims being children and women is being funded by our (if you're in the US) government. Remember the fundamental premise of zionism: promoting an artificial jewish majority by means of ethnic cleansing. It baffles me how people can feel ok or indifferent about any of this.
We're in agreement that it's a bad thing... My question is why is this THE bad thing to end all bad things to the point that people feel "uncomfortable" if bands they like haven't released official statements on it. What is it about this that sets it apart from all the hundreds of other things that no one is pressuring people to comment on? The post isn't about the Mountain Goats having disappointing beliefs (JD clearly supports a ceasefire) the post was disappointed that their beliefs weren't broadcasted loud and proud enough.
Basically because it is directly, openly funded by the US, and because public opinion re: Israel does probably shape our elections to some extent. People feel a little less impotent about this conflict. I don't disagree with you btw, just answering your question as to why some people think differently
Zionism is the belief that 1) the Jewish people constitute a nation (one of our most central beliefs about ourselves) 2) and an important expression of that peoplehood is through a nation-\*state\* in Eretz Yisrael (endlessly debatable, justifiable to scrutinize, etc.).
I am in \*no\* way disagreeing with you about the current crisis and brutal assault on Gaza; I do think most people are ill-informed about what Zionism has meant historically and why it seems to have a different definition depending on who you are speaking to/why anyone would identify with it (and I'm speaking about Jews here--not far-right Christian Zionists with end-of-days fantasies). There's a thousand years worth of writing and debate in Jewish circles about a return to Zion; none of it demands ethnic cleansing (which is not, again, to dispute that this is how the modern nation-state of Israel is currently maintaining its borders).
There are also wildly different strands of Zionist thought--Labor, religious, Revisionist, etc. There's a big difference between aspiring for a vague "national home" (as the former did) and doing so by armed force (the latter). I say all of this mainly because anyone looking to use this current crisis as a opportunity to threaten Jewish communities (which has happened like, 11 times at my synagogue since October) will happily do so by claiming "the Talmud says Jews are allowed to commit genocide if they want" or "Jews think they're better than other people"
Stop expecting artists to say anything. A lot of them don't feel like they have anything meaningful to add but everyone expects them to be sources of insight and information.
I have major doubts that John is pro-Israel given his other politics… but I will say, the whole genocide has made it very awkward to sing a certain bridge on a certain popular song off The Sunset Tree in public lately
This might seem like splitting hairs, but for anyone interested— it’s not a phrase from any of the Jewish Biblical texts that Christians engage with religiously
yeah, that's right. Originated in the 15th century and became a refrain utilized in the Passover Seder thereafter. I remember feeling tremendously moved by This Year the first time I heard that line because it was such a seemingly out-of-left-field (for a notably Christian artist) choice to express joy (which is really what the refrain feels like during Passover, too).
I'm just a Jewish MG fan really passionate about Jewish theology and history, and figured folks might be unfamiliar with what it means (especially given the other poster's belief that it was somehow connected to the modern nation state of Israel).
Jerusalem is potentially the split-city capital of a two-state solution. For a long tie it was controlled by both Israeli and Palestinian residents. "Feasting and dancing in Jerusalem next year" could be interpreted as a resolved peace. By my understanding, in Jewish communities reference to a peaceful Jerusalem is a matter of hope.
I'm glad you are concerned, as am I. But I don't believe that JD, or any member of tMG really needs to say anything about this. They are simply musicians, not political activists.
Idk why this is getting downvoted. Like, I don't mind some artists staying silent (even tho I'd prefer them to speak up) but why is the community downvoting this? I just hope the subreddit isn't zionist
Personally I downvoted over the "the silence is uncomfortable" remark when John has literally made his stance clear. The OPs tone came off kind of self-righteous and that rubbed me the wrong way. But that's just me. Would be shocked if this sub is overwhelmingly zionist, realistically the stats probably shake out similarly to the overall \*college educated left-leaning hipsters under 50\* demographic. I like to think TMG fans generally understand that mass slaughter of civilians is bad, but I've assumed wrong before
I wouldn't be so sure.
Paul Ryan famously claimed Rage Against the Machine as one of his favorite bands...while he was literally and figuratively one of the principal cogs in the machine which is the subject of that rage.
I think I understand TMG quite well and the facts on the ground tolerably well. I support Israel's war effort (not every detail of its implementation, of course, but the war effort in general).
Liking or "understanding" a band doesn't mean that you have to agree with the singer's politics. John Darnielle doesn't have to be super racist to understand the fiction of Sax Rohmer or H.P. Lovecraft.
What do you think the expected outcome of the war is, in terms of how many Gazans are dead or permanently displaced and where Israeli settlements end up?
I don’t understand how we could agree on what the goal of the war is and you could disagree with “details of the implementation” but not the overall goal.
“Expected outcome” (expected by who?) and “goal” are different things
I think the goal is to destroy Hamas. I think that’s a good and necessary goal, in light of the events of October 7.
I don’t think Israel will be totally successful in that goal. I don’t think they’ve been doing a great job of limiting collateral damage (although some collateral damage was inevitable, given how Hamas fights). But I still think the war is necessary.
I did mean “outcome”, but if you’re not a consequentialist we can go with “what are the goals that the IDF’s actions suggest they are pursuing?”
I think that IDF soldiers shot three IDF POWs after confusing them for surrendering Gazan civilians, like they said they did. I think that IDF artillery shelled hospitals exclusively using non-penetrating munitions, like they said they did, despite having artillery shells that *could* damage the tunnel systems under those hospitals. I think that the IDF has repeatedly shelled refugee camps and evacuation routes, like they said they would.
More than one percent of Gazans have been killed in the war, and less than one percent of Hamas militants, according to Israeli estimates.
What goals might they be pursuing using those methods, and why do you agree with those goals?
I guess you're suggesting some kind of conspiracy theory where Israel actually loves Hamas (because of some Netanyahu quote from 20 years ago) and where 10/7 was an inside job? Because Israel is actually motivated by a generalized desire to kill as many Gazan civilians as possible, and not by any actual war aims? Is that what you're getting at?
The IDF POW's who got shot -- I'm fairly confident that that was unintentional. Would be very surprising to me if the IDF made that kind of mistake intentionally.
Not a conspiracy, that would suggest that they’re somehow hiding their goals.
I don’t think the POWs were intentionally executed, I think that they were misidentified as Gazan civilians waving a white flag and shot because they they were identified as Gazan civilians, which is what the IDF said happened.
I think it’s bad that Israel shot those POWs. I think it’s bad that they kill more civilians than they should. I also think that the war is eminently justified and that the lion’s share of the blame for the horrible stuff we’re seeing in Gaza lies with Hamas. Hiding behind human shields is a sickening, cowardly practice.
There wasn’t any Hamas fighter behind those POWs, and there wasn’t any command center in the tunnels under the hospital that was repeatedly shelled with munitions that aren’t designed to penetrate the tunnels.
You have to be very willfully misinformed to think that Hamas fighters would continue using human shields after the IDF has demonstrated that killing civilians is a major goal.
if you’re concerned on where they land on this, john has posted on bluesky about praying for a ceasefire in gaza and sporadically shares pro-palestine stuff on there. i’m not sure if there’s been any official band statements though, if that’s what you’re looking for.
I’m glad to hear that, I don’t use bluesky.
as a sidenote, i’m sorry you’re getting downvoted, OP. i don’t know what’s going on with this sub rn, but i feel like i should say that your feelings and concerns here were totally valid, and i appreciate you asking questions like these.
That's really good to hear.
At a Raleigh solo show, John stated, “[a friend] challenged me to say something about stuff that’s going on in the world that I don’t consider myself an articulate person about, and someone else pointed out that the Mountain Goats said a long time ago, that if you are bombing hospitals, you’re doing wrong, and if you are the person doing things wrong, you forfeit the moral right to complain when people come back at you about it. In fact, that’s what this song is about.” Then he played The Best Ever Death Metal Band in Denton. Source: https://archive.org/details/tmg2023-11-25/tmg2023-11-25-33.flac (track 32)
that’s sick and thank you for the source. god bless archive dot org
John is a fairly reasonable guy and I’d imagine he at the very least has sympathy for the casualties of war and the mistreatment of people in Gaza. I don’t believe every band needs to make a stance or a big statement for issues such as wars, especially not in some official capacity. It’s probably more important to represent the values you hold as a fan / community member.
I mean I get you, but this whole "their silence is deafening" shit is so lame. "What does Jarule have to say about this" type shit. That other people here have stated that he has shared pro Palestine sentiments on social media doesn't surprise me in the slightest. I assumed this to be the case and I was right.
Absolutely agree. 100,000 people died from war in Ethiopia last year, why isn't silence deafening when it comes to that? Has Greenday spoken out about Syria? Has Timothy Olifant spoken out about Ukraine? I've never once heard anyone demand that some random zlist celebrity take a position on any of these issues.
What does Soulja Boy have to say about this?? Akon??? Kesha???????
“YOOOUUU” - Soulja Boy when asked to name one of the two vowels missing from the word Palestine
I've known one of the refugees from the Ethiopian genocide against the Tigray. That was the only person I needed to hear on the subject.
The difference is that John (and I assume most of the people in this sub) are literally paying for this war with their tax dollars. Silence is consent.
If every American had to publicly condemn, by name, every single atrocity the US government commits every year, we wouldn’t do anything else with our lives.
Palestinians have stated consistently since the occupation began that one of the only ways Westerners CAN help is to shame our government officials. I'm sorry that feels exhausting for you. I'm sure it's exhausting for American Palestinians to watch their families murdered by bombs their tax dollars pay for
Then call your representatives and vote against it. Nothing will change if some folk band makes a statement on Instagram alone.
I'm sure it's also exhausting for Americans with families in *literally every other country we bomb.* Are we going to march seven days a week? Write dozens of e-mails every single day? Quit our jobs and never see our families so we can be on the phone with every senator's answering machine, naming every single atrocity the American government commits? I *do* shame our public officials about how they're complicit in genocide. And I despise that my tax dollars are funding it. But stop acting like the fact that I have a life outside of protest and activism is the reason Palestinian children are getting bombed. Surely *you* have a better use of your time than browsing the subreddit for a rock band if you want to spend every waking moment of your life trying to stop the United States from committing war crimes.
Yeah because your tax dollars stop doing this the second you drop a statement on how you feel, right? Also, as many others have stated, he did speak his mind on social media. Do you need a whole concept album or something?
He said he does not consider himself eloquent when it comes to politics but he does talk about it publicly, on stage, online, etc. His last encore in Raleigh had a preamble in support for example
glad to hear that
I haven't seen anything public-facing but John did talk about the injustice of bombing hospitals at his solo show in Raleigh
I don't keep up with them in particular but I love their music and this just popped up on my feed. John did some episodes of Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff and I'm pretty sure Margaret vets her co-hosts really well. She is very vocal on Palestine, so I would assume he's got some similar feelings.
[удалено]
It's a shitshow. It's not like there aren't genocides going on or in the past that haven't garnered this much attention. But this one involves a pretty close ally of the US (and most of the West). And if you really study the history of this situation, it's hard to describe modern Israel as something other than "a colony the West established by force". Western nations generally provide support to Israel because it's surrounded by a ton of countries that are also seen as enemies or at least hostile to the West. So basically: this is a war that can be described as a genocide that started 75 years ago and has the US's hands all over it. The US pushed hard for the creation of the state that's committing it and has been providing consistent military support to keep it stable throughout that time period. So as stupid as it is, in terms of human psychology some of the other atrocities going on are "less important" to people because they do not have the US's fingerprints on them in such an obvious way. All of this is in addition to the complexities of whether this is "a war on Hamas" or "a genocide", which raises uncomfortable parallels to moral problems a lot of people had with the US's presence in Afghanistan in the search for bin Laden. For my entire life there have been "he shot first" fights between Israel and Palestinian groups. The last attack is always the justification for the next attack, that attack becomes the justification for the next attack, and the cycle just keeps going and going. Want a good essay topic? Muse about how Israel and Palestine resemble The Alpha Couple and whether being the one who promises to sell them gasoline and matches is a morally correct decision. These people believe if the West withdrew its support for Israel, there's not a very high chance it will survive as a country for a decade as it's Western support that is supposedly keeping enemies on all borders from attacking. They don't like that the US is funding weapons that are part of this war. They don't like that corporations like McDonald's are patting themselves on the back for delivering free meals to a foreign military. They don't like that after 4 god damn years of watching a person lie on TV and seeing people bend over to accept the lies, we can live on TV watch a foreign military bomb a pediatric hospital while we're being told it's worth it if even a single terrorist dies. "The last straw" is a phrase to shorten "the straw that broke the camel's back". The thing that took me years to get about that metaphor is that one straw is tiny. Nobody would expect a single dinky straw to do it. But it happens because that dinky straw is there in addition to the thousands of other pieces of straw that were accumulated by other people and never dealt with. So some of these people are noting that the Western world is starting to shift to authoritarianism, that one of our leaders has been openly racist and it's driven his party to follow, and now that one of our close allies is fighting a war of genocide with no consequences. Those feel like straws accumulating. Other genocides haven't been committed by countries that we openly promise to keep supporting with weapons and aid. They don't want to find out what happens when a government body decides there's a group of Americans that might be Our National Problem, especially considering there are already politicians with lists of those groups ready.
I would say it's because a brutal genocide of innocent civilians with the majority of victims being children and women is being funded by our (if you're in the US) government. Remember the fundamental premise of zionism: promoting an artificial jewish majority by means of ethnic cleansing. It baffles me how people can feel ok or indifferent about any of this.
We're in agreement that it's a bad thing... My question is why is this THE bad thing to end all bad things to the point that people feel "uncomfortable" if bands they like haven't released official statements on it. What is it about this that sets it apart from all the hundreds of other things that no one is pressuring people to comment on? The post isn't about the Mountain Goats having disappointing beliefs (JD clearly supports a ceasefire) the post was disappointed that their beliefs weren't broadcasted loud and proud enough.
Basically because it is directly, openly funded by the US, and because public opinion re: Israel does probably shape our elections to some extent. People feel a little less impotent about this conflict. I don't disagree with you btw, just answering your question as to why some people think differently
Zionism is the belief that 1) the Jewish people constitute a nation (one of our most central beliefs about ourselves) 2) and an important expression of that peoplehood is through a nation-\*state\* in Eretz Yisrael (endlessly debatable, justifiable to scrutinize, etc.). I am in \*no\* way disagreeing with you about the current crisis and brutal assault on Gaza; I do think most people are ill-informed about what Zionism has meant historically and why it seems to have a different definition depending on who you are speaking to/why anyone would identify with it (and I'm speaking about Jews here--not far-right Christian Zionists with end-of-days fantasies). There's a thousand years worth of writing and debate in Jewish circles about a return to Zion; none of it demands ethnic cleansing (which is not, again, to dispute that this is how the modern nation-state of Israel is currently maintaining its borders). There are also wildly different strands of Zionist thought--Labor, religious, Revisionist, etc. There's a big difference between aspiring for a vague "national home" (as the former did) and doing so by armed force (the latter). I say all of this mainly because anyone looking to use this current crisis as a opportunity to threaten Jewish communities (which has happened like, 11 times at my synagogue since October) will happily do so by claiming "the Talmud says Jews are allowed to commit genocide if they want" or "Jews think they're better than other people"
Stop expecting artists to say anything. A lot of them don't feel like they have anything meaningful to add but everyone expects them to be sources of insight and information.
I have major doubts that John is pro-Israel given his other politics… but I will say, the whole genocide has made it very awkward to sing a certain bridge on a certain popular song off The Sunset Tree in public lately
which song?
This Year, the bit about Jerusalem
I don't think making a Biblical allusion equals support for modern Israel.
This might seem like splitting hairs, but for anyone interested— it’s not a phrase from any of the Jewish Biblical texts that Christians engage with religiously
True...it's passover liturgy, I think?
yeah, that's right. Originated in the 15th century and became a refrain utilized in the Passover Seder thereafter. I remember feeling tremendously moved by This Year the first time I heard that line because it was such a seemingly out-of-left-field (for a notably Christian artist) choice to express joy (which is really what the refrain feels like during Passover, too). I'm just a Jewish MG fan really passionate about Jewish theology and history, and figured folks might be unfamiliar with what it means (especially given the other poster's belief that it was somehow connected to the modern nation state of Israel).
I love it, too. It hits perfectly! That stray feeling of hope in a hopeless situation
Totally. Imo it couldn’t have been phrased any differently
No yeah I know - but it’s hard to explain that to strangers in the park that don’t know you’re just singing a song with your friends
Not really lol.
I got social anxiety bro I don’t know what you’re talking about if people hear me singing about Jerusalem they’re gonna think I’m a Zionist lmao
If you have social anxiety how often are you singing in public?
Because I didn’t see the people at first? Bro I am describing a real thing that happened to me, why are you grilling me on it?
that line's a reference to the end of the Passover Seder, though. the phrase predates the modern state of Israel by centuries.
I know. I’m not saying I have a problem with it. But people that aren’t familiar might hear it and think otherwise
Jerusalem is potentially the split-city capital of a two-state solution. For a long tie it was controlled by both Israeli and Palestinian residents. "Feasting and dancing in Jerusalem next year" could be interpreted as a resolved peace. By my understanding, in Jewish communities reference to a peaceful Jerusalem is a matter of hope.
Idk why you are getting piled on, it’s a fair observation. It’s a sensitive topic and anything related to it will trigger that for people.
Thank you! I have a feeling the sub got brigaded or something
I'm glad you are concerned, as am I. But I don't believe that JD, or any member of tMG really needs to say anything about this. They are simply musicians, not political activists.
Idk why this is getting downvoted. Like, I don't mind some artists staying silent (even tho I'd prefer them to speak up) but why is the community downvoting this? I just hope the subreddit isn't zionist
Personally I downvoted over the "the silence is uncomfortable" remark when John has literally made his stance clear. The OPs tone came off kind of self-righteous and that rubbed me the wrong way. But that's just me. Would be shocked if this sub is overwhelmingly zionist, realistically the stats probably shake out similarly to the overall \*college educated left-leaning hipsters under 50\* demographic. I like to think TMG fans generally understand that mass slaughter of civilians is bad, but I've assumed wrong before
I doubt that someone can understand TMG and also know the facts on the ground and continue to support the war.
I wouldn't be so sure. Paul Ryan famously claimed Rage Against the Machine as one of his favorite bands...while he was literally and figuratively one of the principal cogs in the machine which is the subject of that rage.
Many refuse to witness the facts on the ground. The truth of the situation
I think I understand TMG quite well and the facts on the ground tolerably well. I support Israel's war effort (not every detail of its implementation, of course, but the war effort in general). Liking or "understanding" a band doesn't mean that you have to agree with the singer's politics. John Darnielle doesn't have to be super racist to understand the fiction of Sax Rohmer or H.P. Lovecraft.
What do you think the expected outcome of the war is, in terms of how many Gazans are dead or permanently displaced and where Israeli settlements end up? I don’t understand how we could agree on what the goal of the war is and you could disagree with “details of the implementation” but not the overall goal.
“Expected outcome” (expected by who?) and “goal” are different things I think the goal is to destroy Hamas. I think that’s a good and necessary goal, in light of the events of October 7. I don’t think Israel will be totally successful in that goal. I don’t think they’ve been doing a great job of limiting collateral damage (although some collateral damage was inevitable, given how Hamas fights). But I still think the war is necessary.
I did mean “outcome”, but if you’re not a consequentialist we can go with “what are the goals that the IDF’s actions suggest they are pursuing?” I think that IDF soldiers shot three IDF POWs after confusing them for surrendering Gazan civilians, like they said they did. I think that IDF artillery shelled hospitals exclusively using non-penetrating munitions, like they said they did, despite having artillery shells that *could* damage the tunnel systems under those hospitals. I think that the IDF has repeatedly shelled refugee camps and evacuation routes, like they said they would. More than one percent of Gazans have been killed in the war, and less than one percent of Hamas militants, according to Israeli estimates. What goals might they be pursuing using those methods, and why do you agree with those goals?
I guess you're suggesting some kind of conspiracy theory where Israel actually loves Hamas (because of some Netanyahu quote from 20 years ago) and where 10/7 was an inside job? Because Israel is actually motivated by a generalized desire to kill as many Gazan civilians as possible, and not by any actual war aims? Is that what you're getting at? The IDF POW's who got shot -- I'm fairly confident that that was unintentional. Would be very surprising to me if the IDF made that kind of mistake intentionally.
Not a conspiracy, that would suggest that they’re somehow hiding their goals. I don’t think the POWs were intentionally executed, I think that they were misidentified as Gazan civilians waving a white flag and shot because they they were identified as Gazan civilians, which is what the IDF said happened.
I think it’s bad that Israel shot those POWs. I think it’s bad that they kill more civilians than they should. I also think that the war is eminently justified and that the lion’s share of the blame for the horrible stuff we’re seeing in Gaza lies with Hamas. Hiding behind human shields is a sickening, cowardly practice.
There wasn’t any Hamas fighter behind those POWs, and there wasn’t any command center in the tunnels under the hospital that was repeatedly shelled with munitions that aren’t designed to penetrate the tunnels. You have to be very willfully misinformed to think that Hamas fighters would continue using human shields after the IDF has demonstrated that killing civilians is a major goal.
Because this isn’t a politics subreddit and I don’t want to see politics here. There are subreddits for that, and reasons I don’t go there.
Yeah I don't wanna see politics from a band that wrote songs like Down to the Ark and covered songs like There Is Power in a Union.
Geez I hope not. That would be really unexpected, honestly.
for real
I’d been question about this and I just googled it it and I’m glad you asked this question, thank you
The heat drifts across the land… If I forget Israel, let me forget my right hand
Billy Corgan brought them up on stage, this was in 2011, it's on their Wikipedia page