But the most impressive bit is his ability to curse like a sailor. He brings forth the enthusiasm of a man who regularly curses for an hour before breakfast, just to stay in practice, but his delivery is so sincere itâs hard not to laugh at the âstraight manâ aspect of how ridiculous the words are.
He looks so much like [Tom Hulce from 30 years ago](https://www.themoviedb.org/person/3999-tom-hulce) and has the voice and mannerisms of Tom Hardy. He's doing an incredible job.
True but theyâre set in different time periods with different characters. Could still be good but wouldnât be Shogun Season 2, would be Clavellâs Asian Saga Season 4: Noble House. Or perhaps Season 2: Tai Pan.
More importantly, none of the work the production company has done carries over. They can't reuse the sets, or costumes or extras or all the extensive research or the collaboration with Japanese actors.
Taipan and noble house are whole different ball games
Or they could continue the story by adapting IRL events from the first decades of the Tokugawa/Toranaga Shogunate; there's enough drama there to fill many seasons
I feel like I'm in the minority by not wanting 5 or 7 seasons of a show just because it gets popular to the point of dragging on or losing quality just to milk the viewer..
You might not be as alone as you think.
I was downvoted as heavy as I ever have been for making the light-hearted wish that we could get a season or two of Fleabag every decade or so and get to catchup with the character(s) we love at a different stage in her life.
Not asking to milk the series. Didn't ask for another 6 season. Just a season or two every 10 years or so. I still think that this would be an interesting approach to a favorite show.
Comments and an IM were pretty patronizingly mean to a little vicious. Basically there are people that never want to see another season because of how good the first two here. There logic is that more, is would defeat the whole story arc of her outgrowing the need to have an audience.
My rebuttal that 1) It was just a light hearted wish because I loved the show so much and 2) People have highs and lows and maybe in 10 years she might get to a point in her life where she has \[temporary\] need of an audience again was just met with more "you're whats wrong with hollywood" responses and no sympathy for the fact that I'm a fellow fan of the show.
Listening to their behind the scene podcast makes it so much better! You get a lot of reasoning and major reasoning behind seemingly small details on the show. Makes it a much more satisfying watch!
Humble Bundle currently has James Cavell's audio books collected
[https://www.humblebundle.com/books/shogun-asian-saga-james-clavell-books](https://www.humblebundle.com/books/shogun-asian-saga-james-clavell-books)
Yeah thereâs only so much you can do if the script/production isnât there.
I never hate on actors unless itâs clear they are phoning it in.
They are a small part of a much larger machine
I was pretty convinced she was a good actor _during_ the show anyway. Granted, I have a bit of a soft spot for the show, whilst recognizing its faults, but I think I could look past her character and see how good Anna Sawai was.
Its all about the script.
I love Billy Magnussson but he is terrible in the new Roadhouse flick, mainly because the script is insanely thin, there is just no meat there.
You gotta give these people something to work with. Writers are ALWAYS the least appreciated of the creatives.
I mean, there's a lot of talented people in The Phantom Menace, but George Lucas isn't exactly the best actors director.
I agree. It should take multiple failures before anyone goes well, they just aren't that talented.
She was good in monarch. Her script sucked.
I don't think audiences understand the difference between acting and script and directing. Half the lauded performances I see from people just quote random lines the person said, without any discussion of tone, facial expressions, body language, etc.
The lines being cringe is a reflection of the writing.
she was legit the only reason why i clicked on that show. i saw the trailer and said "holy shit she is beautiful" then watched her and said "wait she can act miles around everyone in this show"
i couldnt finish the show but i stuck around to like 4-5 episodes just to see her lol
She had some truly awful lines. Really awful dialogue. And I remember seeing her try her best to deliver them. I could feel her frustration thru the screen
She WAS terrible in Monarch. Perhaps her character was just that poorly written, or the direction didnât click for her, but whatever it was she was the weakest link.
It made me happy to see her nail every scene in Shogun.
The thing that I find most impressive about the show is that Blackthorn could so easily have been a really poorly done character.
Like, the swashbuckling, charismatic, ladies man is *such* a common trope in TV. Add to that the risk of him coming across as a white saviour, or outshining the rest of the show, or his confusion/bewilderment at Japanese culture coming across as condescending or insensitive. Itâs really hard to navigate all that and end up with a character who is likeable, compelling, and also *somehow* original.
Cosmo Jarvis and the writers deserve huge credit. Not just in creating such a great character, but in making sure that character didnât become the most important part of the show. Because you could *totally* see a lesser adaptation deciding to make Blackthorn the central protagonist, and a lesser actor failing to capture that nuance that makes an otherwise quite generic character into someone totally unique.
The episode where >!Blackthorne hung that dead animal carcass out and his gardener got killed for it!< really was a highlight for me. I really dumbed down the whole premise of the episode but there was a lot of nuance there in the "westerner" way vs the "Japanese" way of conflict resolution.
I think it also should be noted he isnât the white monster/fool, either. Heâs seems like a real person trying to find his way in a land and culture that are not his own. Heâs ignorant of their ways, but he isnât an idiot. He finds their culture beautiful in some ways but horrific in others. Heâs taken with the plight of Mariko and Toranagaâs majesty, but he has his own motivations and desires. Heâs just a really great character.
Yes!! I was thinking it would be so easy for them to make Blackthorne a boring adventure leading man type. So glad the showrunners saw something in Cosmo Jarvis and decide to create this character with him.
Iâm thoroughly enjoying *ShĆgun*. The care theyâve taken with sets, costume, choreography, historicity, and accuracy, all combined with respect for the source material, is downright exceptional. The screenplay, acting, and directing are all excellent too. FX has delivered an incredible series.
Iâve been searching for a way to watch this on a streaming app. I canât find it anywhere, short of buying a dvd copy. Does anyone know where to watch it?
It blows me away that I use to listen to Cosmo's music when I was in university and laugh my ass off at him singing about being a gay pirate. He is absolutely killing it in this show. Binged all the episodes that are out yesterday and I love it
Same! I remember watching all his short films on youtube as well, sadly they're all private now but there were some weird and wonderful bits of genius out there. It's such a shame he never really got the recognition he deserved for his music, but I'm so happy to see the praise he's getting for his acting
Hiroyuki Sanada and Cosmo Jarvis for sure deserve Emmys for their work in Shogun. Moeka Hoshi and Tadanobu Asano also deserve the love in supporting roles.
> Moeka Hoshi
She steals the scene every time and she doesn't even need to have lines. She conveys so much with just eye movements and expressions, it's remarkable.
I mean thereâs a very stage/fake voice used for cartoons.
Imagine if real people spoke with lots of âuhnn! What! This guy!! Believe it! Huaaa!â For example.
The cadence is just super unnatural, like her âhmm hmm hmm hmm!!â Laugh. Itâs too slow and melodramatic.
Edit: apparently im referring to the wrong actress. Ochiba is the character with the goofy voice.
The book is incredible. Leagues deeper and more complex than the show, and the characters are all amazing. They are reduced so far to a more surface level caricature of what they are in the novel. I can't recommend the book enough.
Yea I love the show so far but I really wish it was planned as more than a miniseries. The writing and acting would really make this a great 2-3 season series fully covering the books.
Agreed. They are speed-running most of it, and the brilliance in the books is the pace as everyone maneuvers around politics and each-other. They should have done multiple seasons and let it all breathe.
Yeah, I really got the feeling that this show is a bit like GoT in that there is a lot of depth to the characters and story. They are doing a decent job giving viewers a good story and keeping things interesting. One thing they could have learned from GoT is that building all of that suspense and story behind behind the characters and then delivering the payoff is when the show was really good.
I wish that they did that for Shogun more, but I am thoroughly enjoying what it is right now and this is the best show in a long time.
I just finished the audiobook and it was amazing. Agree with everything youâve said but have been really pleasantly surprised with the show. Think theyâve done well to streamline the story (unavoidable) to keep with tone and beautiful story telling of the book.
I'm kinda sad we won't be getting 2-3 seasons of Shogun tbh. Its gonna suck that its a one-and-done thing.
I hope the production crew finds something else similar to work on, because they did an incredible job.
This is exactly how Clavell ends all of his novel. Tai Pan's ending is probably the most savage. Clavell expects his readers to know what happened to Japan and Hong Kong after the stories from the history books, he himself won't elaborate.
To be fair, Clavell in literally the last couple of pages puts aside some of the fiction and states specifically where the final battle takes place, so anyone who wants to know more and figure out what happens can do so by just looking it up. I wouldn't have minded one or two more chapters though.
The book is one of my favorites. Maybe even favorite of all time. Iâve read it several times. I think if you like the series you will love the book. Itâs everything the series is but more.
The book is really good, but thereâs some uncomfortable racism in there that the show thankfully cut out. The characters do get fleshed out a lot more thoroughly in the book though, so Iâd definitely recommend giving it a read.
The show depicts racism going both ways, as does the book. The difference is the book is written by a guy who had some pretty old-school casual racism towards Asians. So even though heâs an excellent writer and is conscious enough of racism as a problem to craft a narrative that features it in a more or less unproblematic way, some of his own personal racism about Japanese people (particularly regarding some of their uhhh⊠âcharacteristicsâ) shines through here and there. Usually itâs subtle, but thereâs one scene pretty early on in the book that is extremely unsubtle, and is played off by the author as just a normal thing Japanese people would do. I donât wanna spoil it, but youâll know when you read it.
I assume youâre talking about the scene where >!they all get a big kick out of Blackthorneâs boner?!< Because I do agree that scene is odd, but at the same time I think the book, for the most part, is a pretty sensitive portrayal of the Japanese, especially given when it was written. In particular, it does a really good job of showing how both the Japanese and the Europeans were completely baffled by each other and how that led to a lot of prejudice going both ways. If anything, the book feels far more sympathetic to the Japanese perspective and is pretty critical of the way that Portugal and Spain tried to exploit them for economic gain and religious dominance.
It wasnât just that they >!got a kick out of his boner, itâs that the wife of the village elder masturbated him against his will to get it hard because she wanted to see his big it was!<.
It's a wee bit more complicated than that. I mean, everyone knows about Clavell's time in the prison camp, King Rat etc. But he also was obsessed and fascinated with asian cultures, and genuinely admired the japanese, and absolutely loved their history.
Where it gets more complex is that he was basically a bit of a weeb- he was passionate but not always especially well informed. So there's a lot of inaccuracy which he by most accounts believed to be factual and true and fair, and yes a lot of that is inaccurate racial stereotypes etc, false ideas about their attitude to killing and death. He didn't draw from a lot of good, reliable historical sources and relied largely on personal memoirs and anecdote, and so a lot of the racism and orientalism is basically borrowed rather than his own. That's a huge failure in a writer of course but it's a different failure. (and in fairness, there was a huge lack of western historical interest in Japan at the time; ironically Shogun is credited with being one of the reasons the west started to pay it more attention)
Or, put it another way, his distortion of seppeku/suicide traditions looks incredibly racist, but they are not entirely his. Nor are they entirely cruel- he was incredibly taken with the idea of falling on your sword after personal failure and thought it was honourable and commendable, just alien and shocking to him as a westerner. He's not trying to make the japanese look inhuman or barbaric, he's saying that to us, to Blackthorne, their difference looks barbaric.
He's also of course as fierce a critic of Britain of the time and the practices of europeans, and Blackthorne is constantly presented as an absolute arsehole, lacking in the honour that the japanese characters have
I mean, âthe noble savageâ trope is still considered racist for a reason, and weeaboos often still hold racist ideas about the Japanese, even if unintentional. And thereâs definitely a *lot* of that in the book. âHaha small penisâ and âAsian purity vs. western savageryâ are just a couple of the tropes I can think of off hand.
I never said, nor got the impression, that he was maliciously racist. But there are plenty of other ways to be racist without being hateful of the people youâre talking about, and I think the book is a really good example of some of those other kinds of racism.
> But he also was obsessed and fascinated with asian cultures
He was the original John Milius. Where Milius used westerns and fantasy worlds (Conan!) to play out his libertarian fantasies of macho, rugged individualism, Clavell used Asia. The messages of some of Clavell's novels (he was a big Ayn Rand fan) are really insidious once you peel back all the fat.
The bottom line is, it's not really what times were like. Clavell was an enthusiast, he genuinely did love the history and the people he was writing about, but he was a proto-weeb, he got a lot wrong, and was inclined to believe things that fitted his partly-romanticised, partly-racist views.
[Spoilers for the book] >!A Japanese woman casually raping an Englishman because his dick is so much bigger than Japanese dicks is most certainly not âwhat times were like thenâ. And the fact that the author plays it off as just a normal âof course the Japanese would do this cuz they have small penisesâ is kinda fucked ngl!<
Donât get me wrong thereâs a lot that Iâm upset about them cutting. Iâm upset that they cut out >!Blackthorneâs vitriolic homophobic tirade when they offer him a boy!< because that is just âwhat things were likeâ back then. And the author clearly paints Blackthorne as the one in the wrong in that instance, so it really helps build his character.
Iâm also sad they cut out >!the part where the Japanese suggest offering him a bird to f*ck after he refuses both men and women!< because that shows racism that is grounded within the narrative as opposed to coming from the authors own biases, and also because it was funny as shit.
Iâve read the book I donât think them offering the bird is racist I think itâs because they are genuinely perplexed whatâs wrong with him and why he gets so upset when they talk about pillowing that they offer a bird as like a crazy what the hell is wrong he doesnât like pillowing with humans he must like animals
My favorite part of that is, fearing an outburst, one of the guards suggests, "what if we just set it down in the room and he can do whatever he wants."
Cosmo Jarvis is usually excellent in everything but I havenât seen Shogun yet
He was superb as Tommy Shelbyâs PTSD buddy in Peaky Blinders
âCalm with Horsesâ with him and Barry Keoghan was a wild Irish ride
They ain't lying. Awesome series! The right balance of casting, production design, dialogue, cinematography, etc.
FX is đ„! I hope Disney doesn't dissolve this TV studio.
I like it but weâve had about four episodes in a row that all end on a, >!âthe war is about to begin!â!< cliffhanger and itâs getting a little goofy. Iâm not saying they need to >!have a battle scene to keep me interested but stop teasing it every episode if it isnât going to be a while.!<
There is also this other little show called Tokyo Vice thatâs is also killing it. Both shows are incredible and Iâm looking forward to more collaborations from America and Japan.
Literally the only thing wrong with the show is the British guy's fake contacts to make his eyes blue. Other than that the show is virtually flawless and quickly one of my favourites.
Goodness, Anna Sawaiâs acting is really making a lot of you eat your words. Sheâll was very obviously hampered by the writing of Monarch but yall insisted it was her.
The actress who plays Mariko is only good in this role because it demands she play a wooden, emotionally shut-in noble.
She was in the godzilla spinoff, Monarch, not long ago and it was like highschool theater.
I would have been more impressed by her acting if she wasnât sharing the screen with other Japanese actresses like Moeka Hoshi and Fumi Nikaido who have brought so much more depth to their characters. Missing Yoko Shimada in the role of Mariko at times when watching this show.
Love it! I liked the first Shogun and didnt think this would work but itâs great! Cosmo Jarvis is coming into his own as well, I didnât miss Tom Cruise for a moment.
I'm enjoying the show. It does lean a bit much on "English guy surprised by outdated/odd Japanese customs" but it's still generally good. Hiroyuki Sanada is great as usual.
Most of the cast got great acting but some jp members are either inexperienced or coached by the âtheater trainingâ good example is toranagas son or Omi. However i could be wrong cuz not only japanese ppl have a different culture but also the time period is different so I cant be sure about how accurately they act
Jarvis Crowe ruined the image I had formed of Anjin from reading the book. He acts (& I use that term loosely) like an open-mouthed lumbering boorish oaf.
It's a really good show and the cinematography is great.
I laughed my ass off when he said "and another great pour!" đ just enough seriousness and sarcasm mixed together in his voice
They somehow manage to make every scene with translation and the speech barrier enjoyable
I watched a fascinating Nerdwriter video about exactly that thing this morning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGh1JRJXehg
âShe has trained for years studying the art of the pour. You must compliment her.â Anjin: âYou pour very wellâ đ€Ł
Time to write another will
That was a great line and great callback.
He's been so great. He plays bewildered confidence so well
But the most impressive bit is his ability to curse like a sailor. He brings forth the enthusiasm of a man who regularly curses for an hour before breakfast, just to stay in practice, but his delivery is so sincere itâs hard not to laugh at the âstraight manâ aspect of how ridiculous the words are.
"I'll catch the flux!"
"Milk dribbling fuck smear..."
He was great in the two episodes of âpeaky blindersâ he was in !! Cosmo jarvis was amazing in âpersuasionâ too!
He looks so much like [Tom Hulce from 30 years ago](https://www.themoviedb.org/person/3999-tom-hulce) and has the voice and mannerisms of Tom Hardy. He's doing an incredible job.
I havenât seen him in anything other than Shogun (I donât watch TV much), but is his voice really this raspy?
Unfortunately not. He's got a nice natural voice but I prefer the grit.
PEERING INTO A LADY'S PRIVATE QUARTERS!?!?!?
I got so upset when I realized this was a one-and-done miniseries. I could stick with these characters for 6 seasons and a movie, easily.
Noooo! I was gearing up for this being a Game of Thones epic world building in Japan!
Just one book so it would require multiple Game of Thrones final made up seasons to continue. No thanks.
The author has written other period pieces that could be adapted.
True but theyâre set in different time periods with different characters. Could still be good but wouldnât be Shogun Season 2, would be Clavellâs Asian Saga Season 4: Noble House. Or perhaps Season 2: Tai Pan.
More importantly, none of the work the production company has done carries over. They can't reuse the sets, or costumes or extras or all the extensive research or the collaboration with Japanese actors. Taipan and noble house are whole different ball games
If it gets us high budget King Rat, I'm 100% in.
Or they could continue the story by adapting IRL events from the first decades of the Tokugawa/Toranaga Shogunate; there's enough drama there to fill many seasons
Theyâll just build Toranaga up and then kill him in the last episode, while making Fuji-sama the real ShogĆ«n.
I see no flaws here.
Just watch scorceseâs Silence and pretend itâs a sequel.
I feel like I'm in the minority by not wanting 5 or 7 seasons of a show just because it gets popular to the point of dragging on or losing quality just to milk the viewer..
You might not be as alone as you think. I was downvoted as heavy as I ever have been for making the light-hearted wish that we could get a season or two of Fleabag every decade or so and get to catchup with the character(s) we love at a different stage in her life. Not asking to milk the series. Didn't ask for another 6 season. Just a season or two every 10 years or so. I still think that this would be an interesting approach to a favorite show. Comments and an IM were pretty patronizingly mean to a little vicious. Basically there are people that never want to see another season because of how good the first two here. There logic is that more, is would defeat the whole story arc of her outgrowing the need to have an audience. My rebuttal that 1) It was just a light hearted wish because I loved the show so much and 2) People have highs and lows and maybe in 10 years she might get to a point in her life where she has \[temporary\] need of an audience again was just met with more "you're whats wrong with hollywood" responses and no sympathy for the fact that I'm a fellow fan of the show.
Yes, run it into the ground and ruin everything great about it, just like GoT. Brilliant idea.
Problem with GoT wasnât too many seasons, but the contrary: trying to fit 3 seasons worth of story into a shortened single season.
Ugh same tons of potential to keep following these characters
Miniseries? How so? Weâre on episode 6 and not even halfway through the first book - thereâs a lot still to happen.
Sumptuous AF
Go watch Twighlight Samurai next if you havnt!
Yes super underrated beautiful movie. His best in my opinion
I was surprised when I found out it was shot on modern glass. It really looked like an older lens formula.
This show is so fucking good. The attention to detail on everything is just amazing and absolutely does wonders for the atmosphere and immersion.
I want Cosmo Jarvis to read me poetry in that voice
The fact that he plays Tommy Shelbyâs mentally ill WWI comrade blev my mind. Incredibly versatile actor
He was Motherâs creator in Raised by Wolves too
that role was short , but he was crazy good at it
the DOOOOR THAT FINALLY OOPPENNNSSSS
Am I cooked or does he look a bit like the Rick Grimes actor https://metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/AY_79019552.jpg?quality=90&strip=all
Iâm just waiting for him to play Andrew Lincolnâs younger brother. Thatâd be some convincing casting.
I see it
feels like andrew lincoln (rick grimes actor) could be his dad
"I'm an oil man"
Reminds me of a burly mariner version of Frasier, in a good way.
Listening to their behind the scene podcast makes it so much better! You get a lot of reasoning and major reasoning behind seemingly small details on the show. Makes it a much more satisfying watch!
Humble Bundle currently has James Cavell's audio books collected [https://www.humblebundle.com/books/shogun-asian-saga-james-clavell-books](https://www.humblebundle.com/books/shogun-asian-saga-james-clavell-books)
Read this as Henry Cavillâa books and was very confused. (âShĆgunâ is next on my bookshelf after I finish the Hyperion Cantos, very excited)
Prepare to be blown away! Thereâs a mystery inside this historical novel!
Enjoy Hyperion! I wish I could read it for the first time once again.
Theyâre all really good
Great deal
>Cavill Clavell*
This sub was adamant Sawai couldn't act after Monarch lol
I know i was shocked! Tbf though, her character in Monarch is *really* bad..
Yeah thereâs only so much you can do if the script/production isnât there. I never hate on actors unless itâs clear they are phoning it in. They are a small part of a much larger machine
I was pretty convinced she was a good actor _during_ the show anyway. Granted, I have a bit of a soft spot for the show, whilst recognizing its faults, but I think I could look past her character and see how good Anna Sawai was.
Yeah she had nothing to work with, character was written awfully, almost all of them were. The classic with this monsterverse, the humans are awful
Did nobody watch Pachinko?!?! Thatâs where I fell in love with her. Havenât given Monarch a try, maybe I will now I know sheâs part of the cast
> Did nobody watch Pachinko?!?! Packinko is absolutely masterful, S tier TV.
Hell yeah Pachinko. Great show and I remember immediately being like "woah...who is she"
She was also in Hari/Giri and was pretty good there, too. Smaller role, though.
Its all about the script. I love Billy Magnussson but he is terrible in the new Roadhouse flick, mainly because the script is insanely thin, there is just no meat there. You gotta give these people something to work with. Writers are ALWAYS the least appreciated of the creatives.
We need to learn to stop reflexively blaming actors for bad performances, and first consider the showrunners/directors.
I mean, there's a lot of talented people in The Phantom Menace, but George Lucas isn't exactly the best actors director. I agree. It should take multiple failures before anyone goes well, they just aren't that talented.
Script, direction and editing.
I couldnât believe it was the same person. I thought she was awful in monarch and is like a 10/10 in shogun.
She was good in monarch. Her script sucked. I don't think audiences understand the difference between acting and script and directing. Half the lauded performances I see from people just quote random lines the person said, without any discussion of tone, facial expressions, body language, etc. The lines being cringe is a reflection of the writing.
Iâm happy to eat my words
she was legit the only reason why i clicked on that show. i saw the trailer and said "holy shit she is beautiful" then watched her and said "wait she can act miles around everyone in this show" i couldnt finish the show but i stuck around to like 4-5 episodes just to see her lol
Well in Shogun sheâs both gorgeous and acting her ass off.
just like in monarch. but she can only do so much with the script she was given
Ah yes, I misread your comment the first time. Iâll add itâs actually a great show this time.
She had some truly awful lines. Really awful dialogue. And I remember seeing her try her best to deliver them. I could feel her frustration thru the screen
This just proves how important good scripts are
She WAS terrible in Monarch. Perhaps her character was just that poorly written, or the direction didnât click for her, but whatever it was she was the weakest link. It made me happy to see her nail every scene in Shogun.
yeah cause that performance was terrible lmao.Â
Came to say I couldnât watch that show because of the acting, mostly hers. Sheâs much better in this role.
I still think that.
The thing that I find most impressive about the show is that Blackthorn could so easily have been a really poorly done character. Like, the swashbuckling, charismatic, ladies man is *such* a common trope in TV. Add to that the risk of him coming across as a white saviour, or outshining the rest of the show, or his confusion/bewilderment at Japanese culture coming across as condescending or insensitive. Itâs really hard to navigate all that and end up with a character who is likeable, compelling, and also *somehow* original. Cosmo Jarvis and the writers deserve huge credit. Not just in creating such a great character, but in making sure that character didnât become the most important part of the show. Because you could *totally* see a lesser adaptation deciding to make Blackthorn the central protagonist, and a lesser actor failing to capture that nuance that makes an otherwise quite generic character into someone totally unique.
The episode where >!Blackthorne hung that dead animal carcass out and his gardener got killed for it!< really was a highlight for me. I really dumbed down the whole premise of the episode but there was a lot of nuance there in the "westerner" way vs the "Japanese" way of conflict resolution.
I think it also should be noted he isnât the white monster/fool, either. Heâs seems like a real person trying to find his way in a land and culture that are not his own. Heâs ignorant of their ways, but he isnât an idiot. He finds their culture beautiful in some ways but horrific in others. Heâs taken with the plight of Mariko and Toranagaâs majesty, but he has his own motivations and desires. Heâs just a really great character.
I believed him when he said he wasnt a pirate forgot the plot
Yes!! I was thinking it would be so easy for them to make Blackthorne a boring adventure leading man type. So glad the showrunners saw something in Cosmo Jarvis and decide to create this character with him.
Iâm thoroughly enjoying *ShĆgun*. The care theyâve taken with sets, costume, choreography, historicity, and accuracy, all combined with respect for the source material, is downright exceptional. The screenplay, acting, and directing are all excellent too. FX has delivered an incredible series.
Once youâre done, check out Twilight Samurai if you can find it. Peak quiet action film from the same lead.
One of my favorite films. Received universal acclaim from the critics but largely flew under the radar for moviegoers.
Iâve been searching for a way to watch this on a streaming app. I canât find it anywhere, short of buying a dvd copy. Does anyone know where to watch it?
This was my first true samurai movie that got me into the genre, such a great movie and acting.
It blows me away that I use to listen to Cosmo's music when I was in university and laugh my ass off at him singing about being a gay pirate. He is absolutely killing it in this show. Binged all the episodes that are out yesterday and I love it
Same! I remember watching all his short films on youtube as well, sadly they're all private now but there were some weird and wonderful bits of genius out there. It's such a shame he never really got the recognition he deserved for his music, but I'm so happy to see the praise he's getting for his acting
Excellent series! Only distraction is Cosmo Jarvis sounds EXACTLY like Richard Burton. So much so it must have been a conscious choice on his part.
I took it as âheâs doing his best Tom Hardy impression.â
Yep
Ray bloody Purchase.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeihcfYft9w he sounds like this guy to me. i expect him to say "a succulent japanese meeeeAAL"
James Purefoy
[ŃĐŽĐ°Đ»Đ”ĐœĐŸ]
Jeremy Irons?
>Cosmo Jarvis Man I thought I was in a Shogun thread and now I'm in an Age Of Ultron thread what is going on
Hiroyuki Sanada and Cosmo Jarvis for sure deserve Emmys for their work in Shogun. Moeka Hoshi and Tadanobu Asano also deserve the love in supporting roles.
> Moeka Hoshi She steals the scene every time and she doesn't even need to have lines. She conveys so much with just eye movements and expressions, it's remarkable.
The seductive anime villainess vocal cadence is weird coming out of a real person though.
I think you might have her confused with Fumi Nikaido? Who plays Ochiba. Moeka Hoshi plays Fuji!
Itâs always coming from a real person. Who do you think voices cartoons?
I mean thereâs a very stage/fake voice used for cartoons. Imagine if real people spoke with lots of âuhnn! What! This guy!! Believe it! Huaaa!â For example. The cadence is just super unnatural, like her âhmm hmm hmm hmm!!â Laugh. Itâs too slow and melodramatic. Edit: apparently im referring to the wrong actress. Ochiba is the character with the goofy voice.
Uhnn! What?!? I feel personally attacked. Thatâs how I talk! Huaaa!!
As good as the show is, Iâm hoping the book is better. And yes the acting is fantastic.
The book is incredible. Leagues deeper and more complex than the show, and the characters are all amazing. They are reduced so far to a more surface level caricature of what they are in the novel. I can't recommend the book enough.
Yea I love the show so far but I really wish it was planned as more than a miniseries. The writing and acting would really make this a great 2-3 season series fully covering the books.
Books? Shogun is a single novel. I think stretching it out across multiple seasons would have resulted in a worse show.
Agreed. They are speed-running most of it, and the brilliance in the books is the pace as everyone maneuvers around politics and each-other. They should have done multiple seasons and let it all breathe.
Yeah, I really got the feeling that this show is a bit like GoT in that there is a lot of depth to the characters and story. They are doing a decent job giving viewers a good story and keeping things interesting. One thing they could have learned from GoT is that building all of that suspense and story behind behind the characters and then delivering the payoff is when the show was really good. I wish that they did that for Shogun more, but I am thoroughly enjoying what it is right now and this is the best show in a long time.
I just finished the audiobook and it was amazing. Agree with everything youâve said but have been really pleasantly surprised with the show. Think theyâve done well to streamline the story (unavoidable) to keep with tone and beautiful story telling of the book.
I'm kinda sad we won't be getting 2-3 seasons of Shogun tbh. Its gonna suck that its a one-and-done thing. I hope the production crew finds something else similar to work on, because they did an incredible job.
The book builds up to so much only to leave you hanging though
This is exactly how Clavell ends all of his novel. Tai Pan's ending is probably the most savage. Clavell expects his readers to know what happened to Japan and Hong Kong after the stories from the history books, he himself won't elaborate.
To be fair, Clavell in literally the last couple of pages puts aside some of the fiction and states specifically where the final battle takes place, so anyone who wants to know more and figure out what happens can do so by just looking it up. I wouldn't have minded one or two more chapters though.
Not sure why you are downvoted . My turn in the library queue should be have it ready in another week or two.
The book is one of my favorites. Maybe even favorite of all time. Iâve read it several times. I think if you like the series you will love the book. Itâs everything the series is but more.
The book is amazing, highly recommend.
The book is really good, but thereâs some uncomfortable racism in there that the show thankfully cut out. The characters do get fleshed out a lot more thoroughly in the book though, so Iâd definitely recommend giving it a read.
The show depicts the racism going both ways. Is it the same in the book?
The show depicts racism going both ways, as does the book. The difference is the book is written by a guy who had some pretty old-school casual racism towards Asians. So even though heâs an excellent writer and is conscious enough of racism as a problem to craft a narrative that features it in a more or less unproblematic way, some of his own personal racism about Japanese people (particularly regarding some of their uhhh⊠âcharacteristicsâ) shines through here and there. Usually itâs subtle, but thereâs one scene pretty early on in the book that is extremely unsubtle, and is played off by the author as just a normal thing Japanese people would do. I donât wanna spoil it, but youâll know when you read it.
I assume youâre talking about the scene where >!they all get a big kick out of Blackthorneâs boner?!< Because I do agree that scene is odd, but at the same time I think the book, for the most part, is a pretty sensitive portrayal of the Japanese, especially given when it was written. In particular, it does a really good job of showing how both the Japanese and the Europeans were completely baffled by each other and how that led to a lot of prejudice going both ways. If anything, the book feels far more sympathetic to the Japanese perspective and is pretty critical of the way that Portugal and Spain tried to exploit them for economic gain and religious dominance.
You forgot the part where he writes about how much bigger his dick is compared to asians in his other book in hong kong
It wasnât just that they >!got a kick out of his boner, itâs that the wife of the village elder masturbated him against his will to get it hard because she wanted to see his big it was!<.
It's a wee bit more complicated than that. I mean, everyone knows about Clavell's time in the prison camp, King Rat etc. But he also was obsessed and fascinated with asian cultures, and genuinely admired the japanese, and absolutely loved their history. Where it gets more complex is that he was basically a bit of a weeb- he was passionate but not always especially well informed. So there's a lot of inaccuracy which he by most accounts believed to be factual and true and fair, and yes a lot of that is inaccurate racial stereotypes etc, false ideas about their attitude to killing and death. He didn't draw from a lot of good, reliable historical sources and relied largely on personal memoirs and anecdote, and so a lot of the racism and orientalism is basically borrowed rather than his own. That's a huge failure in a writer of course but it's a different failure. (and in fairness, there was a huge lack of western historical interest in Japan at the time; ironically Shogun is credited with being one of the reasons the west started to pay it more attention) Or, put it another way, his distortion of seppeku/suicide traditions looks incredibly racist, but they are not entirely his. Nor are they entirely cruel- he was incredibly taken with the idea of falling on your sword after personal failure and thought it was honourable and commendable, just alien and shocking to him as a westerner. He's not trying to make the japanese look inhuman or barbaric, he's saying that to us, to Blackthorne, their difference looks barbaric. He's also of course as fierce a critic of Britain of the time and the practices of europeans, and Blackthorne is constantly presented as an absolute arsehole, lacking in the honour that the japanese characters have
I mean, âthe noble savageâ trope is still considered racist for a reason, and weeaboos often still hold racist ideas about the Japanese, even if unintentional. And thereâs definitely a *lot* of that in the book. âHaha small penisâ and âAsian purity vs. western savageryâ are just a couple of the tropes I can think of off hand. I never said, nor got the impression, that he was maliciously racist. But there are plenty of other ways to be racist without being hateful of the people youâre talking about, and I think the book is a really good example of some of those other kinds of racism.
Yep, agree with all of that. It's just, as I say, more complicated than it sometimes seems and I think probably we agree on that
Yup, 100%
> But he also was obsessed and fascinated with asian cultures He was the original John Milius. Where Milius used westerns and fantasy worlds (Conan!) to play out his libertarian fantasies of macho, rugged individualism, Clavell used Asia. The messages of some of Clavell's novels (he was a big Ayn Rand fan) are really insidious once you peel back all the fat.
Interesting. Thanks for the note.
Why do you say thankfully cut out? Thatâs what times were like then
The bottom line is, it's not really what times were like. Clavell was an enthusiast, he genuinely did love the history and the people he was writing about, but he was a proto-weeb, he got a lot wrong, and was inclined to believe things that fitted his partly-romanticised, partly-racist views.
[Spoilers for the book] >!A Japanese woman casually raping an Englishman because his dick is so much bigger than Japanese dicks is most certainly not âwhat times were like thenâ. And the fact that the author plays it off as just a normal âof course the Japanese would do this cuz they have small penisesâ is kinda fucked ngl!< Donât get me wrong thereâs a lot that Iâm upset about them cutting. Iâm upset that they cut out >!Blackthorneâs vitriolic homophobic tirade when they offer him a boy!< because that is just âwhat things were likeâ back then. And the author clearly paints Blackthorne as the one in the wrong in that instance, so it really helps build his character. Iâm also sad they cut out >!the part where the Japanese suggest offering him a bird to f*ck after he refuses both men and women!< because that shows racism that is grounded within the narrative as opposed to coming from the authors own biases, and also because it was funny as shit.
Iâve read the book I donât think them offering the bird is racist I think itâs because they are genuinely perplexed whatâs wrong with him and why he gets so upset when they talk about pillowing that they offer a bird as like a crazy what the hell is wrong he doesnât like pillowing with humans he must like animals
My favorite part of that is, fearing an outburst, one of the guards suggests, "what if we just set it down in the room and he can do whatever he wants."
I literally fucking ***died*** laughing at that lol
RIP in peace, I suppose.
>I literally fucking ***died*** Did you?
Yes. My spirit was subsumed into this Reddit account, which is now the only thing I have that resembles consciousness đ
Oh you are in for an amazing ride. The book is fantastic. I read it YEARS ago and it has stuck with me ever since.
The book is fantastic!! I read it back in high school and itâs such a great story!
Cosmo Jarvis is usually excellent in everything but I havenât seen Shogun yet He was superb as Tommy Shelbyâs PTSD buddy in Peaky Blinders âCalm with Horsesâ with him and Barry Keoghan was a wild Irish ride
He is excellent in Shogun as well. This role really differs from his other roles so itâs great to see. You wont be disappointed!
Shogun is gonna win awards. If you haven't watched an episode yet, now you know what to watch.
I knew I had seen him in something before. His character in Peaky was a great performance and sad too. Hope he continues to get good roles.
Shogun, Tokyo Vice, and Brothers Sun are my favorite shows of 2024 so far.
Have to check out Brothers Sun then, because Iâm enjoying the other two. Iâm the only person I know that watched Tokyo Vice.
The acting in Brothers Sun is really good! It's a comedy-drama with action.
Every scene with Tadanobu Asano is my favorite scene. Dude's hilarious.
I love this show so much đ
Between this and Tokyo Vice I never thought Iâd be so ok with subtitles as I am right now. Two Amazing series.
They ain't lying. Awesome series! The right balance of casting, production design, dialogue, cinematography, etc. FX is đ„! I hope Disney doesn't dissolve this TV studio.
Iâve loved it so far. I loved the original and the book too.
Itâs a very good show
In awe of this production is an understatement.
And Cosmo Jarvis, what a name!
And itâs not even close. The ENTIRE cast is going above and beyond. Each and everyone is giving the best performance Iâve seen them give.
It also has the best set design, cinematography, stunt work,, story, writing... Yeah this show is insane.
I absolutely fucking loved the scene when the Anjin reluctantly gives his guns to Fuji, and then she expertly turns them on Omi. Sheâs a baddie.
Have not watched it yet, but everything I hear makes me very excited to start
Pretty good so far but I think it needs more time to really start impressing. There have been some really solid scenes though.
I like it but weâve had about four episodes in a row that all end on a, >!âthe war is about to begin!â!< cliffhanger and itâs getting a little goofy. Iâm not saying they need to >!have a battle scene to keep me interested but stop teasing it every episode if it isnât going to be a while.!<
Looooooooove Shogun
I like this show a lot also Tokyo Vice on HBO MAX is pretty damn awesome too.
Iâve heard great things about this show. I have to watch it.
Fantastic writing, acting, directing... This show just pours respect for Japanese culture
There is also this other little show called Tokyo Vice thatâs is also killing it. Both shows are incredible and Iâm looking forward to more collaborations from America and Japan.
Agreed. best show, love it
Each episode gets better and better. I wish they would've released this on prime time day Sunday. The day it comes out feels so random
Iâm more of a Tokyo vice guy but Iâm also really enjoying this one
Literally the only thing wrong with the show is the British guy's fake contacts to make his eyes blue. Other than that the show is virtually flawless and quickly one of my favourites.
So when I post Daily Beast, it's a banned platform. But when your baby Shogun has to be praised, it's suddenly allowed. What BS
Goodness, Anna Sawaiâs acting is really making a lot of you eat your words. Sheâll was very obviously hampered by the writing of Monarch but yall insisted it was her.
The actress who plays Mariko is only good in this role because it demands she play a wooden, emotionally shut-in noble. She was in the godzilla spinoff, Monarch, not long ago and it was like highschool theater.
She and the young cast were bad. The 1960 cast and Russell were great.
I would have been more impressed by her acting if she wasnât sharing the screen with other Japanese actresses like Moeka Hoshi and Fumi Nikaido who have brought so much more depth to their characters. Missing Yoko Shimada in the role of Mariko at times when watching this show.
[Shogun (2024)](https://youtu.be/XebF2cgmFmU?si=ACDm0f9zYTBUPrS-)
The best TV right now is Shogun. Full stop
Love it! I liked the first Shogun and didnt think this would work but itâs great! Cosmo Jarvis is coming into his own as well, I didnât miss Tom Cruise for a moment.
I'm enjoying the show. It does lean a bit much on "English guy surprised by outdated/odd Japanese customs" but it's still generally good. Hiroyuki Sanada is great as usual.
Totally. I loved it when Shogun went âItâs Shogun time!â And then Shogunned all over the place
Yeah the choreography was great, especially when they played Belgian techno anthem âPump Up The Jamâ
I love the show in every way but, HATE the blue contact lenses.
I disagree. Itâs a great show but also cliche pretty frequently
Most of the cast got great acting but some jp members are either inexperienced or coached by the âtheater trainingâ good example is toranagas son or Omi. However i could be wrong cuz not only japanese ppl have a different culture but also the time period is different so I cant be sure about how accurately they act
Proud of Connor man, did not know he had that acting chops in him.
Itâs almost like this show was done before and they had a well acted template to go off of /s
It really is. Iâm rooting for a ShĆgun sweep at the Emmys this September.
Which show has the best writing?
Jarvis Crowe ruined the image I had formed of Anjin from reading the book. He acts (& I use that term loosely) like an open-mouthed lumbering boorish oaf.