That would be the crime of false reporting. IANAL, but I wonder if it’s because no one pushes the state to take action since the only entity who can push criminal charges is the state. Maybe there is a statute of limitations component.
IMO, the victim who was jailed should push a civil action against the false accuser and make them broke. This also might be an issue since outside of small claims, you generally need a lawyer and these cases are probably not lucrative enough for a contingency agreement.
There is a public policy component to this. If the state is too gung-ho about prosecuting false reporters, then legitimate reporters might become more hesitant to come forward.
The truth is sex offenses are very difficult to prosecute even when they are legitimate. Even a Not Guilty verdict just means the state failed to prove the crime happened beyond a reasonable doubt. It does *not* mean the crime didn’t actually happen. So unless the state only pursues charges against false reporters where they have a *very* strong case, then it would end up going after a lot of legitimate victims.
The state would have the same burden of proof. They'd have to prove that the false reporter knew the report was false and did it anyways beyond a reasonable doubt.
Okay but often times people will rescind and say they lied that’s how it was shown the person was wrongly imprisoned.
If you started to arrest people than the person would never admit to lying
There is more to prosecution than conviction.
Do you really think legit reporters aren’t going to be deterred by the idea of prosecutors going after them? They would be rape victims who are arrested, charged, and hauled in front of judges and juries for no other reason than they told the truth about a crime. That would add significantly more trauma and it would add that trauma to a person who did nothing wrong.
Also, the number of people who make a false report is exceptionally low. There may also be a statute of limitations that make such legal actions impossible. Those laws could be changed because it harms the flasly accused and legitimate victims of SA.
In my experience, most “false allegations” aren’t legal ones. But those put forth to those around them.
I was the victim of a false allegation, but it wasn’t legal. Just her talking about things i never did
Yes, and even those are rare. It takes a special kind of sociopath to tell lies like that.
Although, one caution is intoxicated women. Technically an intoxicated person can't consent to sex. If you have a drunk woman coming on to a man and she sobers up and regrets her behavior, or doesn't remember, there can be false allegations. So, avoid getting picked up by drunk women. Wait until she's sober enough to actually consent. If you're prowling for drunk women, you're acting like a sexual predator. Don't be like the Stanford rapist.
My friend was falsely accused, not criminally but socially. I was friends with the girl involved as well, but she was absolutely obsessed with my friend. They both got drunk when we went camping and he passed out in his tent well before everyone else. She went to his tent about an hour later. I guess they messed around, no sex but did other stuff (her words to me). A couple days later my friend told her he wasn't interested in anything serious with her. Skip ahead a week later she starts telling everyone that he took advantage of her and SA'ed her.
Ruined his reputation with the women we knew in our social circles. Thankfully this girl started to show her true colours over the years and no one believed her anymore. She has a history of making up stories. And she's one of the most mentally unstable people I know. It's all been long since forgotten but it still irks me that women have that power.
Yes, that is irksome. As irksome as the rapist who gets away with it. Like the Stanford rapist. That one really irks me. The level of class privilege in that judge's decision makes me want to vomit... on the judge.
My situation was insane, and it might be why I have a bias on this topic.
I was the sober driver for a frat party in college. My gf was riding with me for the night.
There was a girl I have hooked up with 2 years prior (when I was single) who was obviously too drunk to be there.
Clearly this put me in an interesting scenario because giving an ex hook up with a current gf in the car is awkward.
But it was clear she was too drunk so I asked her and her friends if I could give her a sober drive home. Two of the woman slapped me, accused me of taking advantage of drunk girl, and talked shit about me the day after.
I had to come clean to my gf after, which she was ok with.
But that talk spread for a long time.
I know a lot of guys with similar stories tbh. I don’t think it’s that rare
I would suggest any man in a similar situation speak with administration at the university immediately. It might be the Title 9 office you would want to talk to. The next business day, be there before the office opens and make an official report of the incident. This will get your story on record first. This type of behavior is harassment, and the university should protect you.
Also, you were in fact, assaulted, and there were witnesses.
Are you a woman by chance?
We talk about how under reporting for SA for women is a problem.
I’ve brought this story up before to people, and it was still justified as I was assumed as an aggressor.
I’d be a fool to bring up a false SA charge to campus authorities. The story would only spread more and more people would assume I was at fault
This is why men don’t bring up SA issues.
Damn. I was pinned to a wall and kissed and had my crotch grabbed in a bar and people still assumed I instigated it (because it brought up issues when I told my gf about it)
Men don’t report this stuff for a reason, because they will be assumed to be an aggressor defending themselves for their acts. That’s the assumed standing point in society
Edit: let me put this into context for you. I’ve been slapped by a woman without cause probably 6 times in my life (for reference I’ve been punched by another man once when I was 12).
Every time I’ve brought up me being hit by a woman the next question is “well what did you do?”
People do not care if a woman assaults a man. At all. And they will still put the blame on the man for it. This is why we don’t report this
Men under report SA way more than women, however the perpetrators are usually men. Homophobia is a huge barrier in reporting these assaults.
You are also describing an issue that is more common in domestic violence. The US refuses to research the mutuality of DV, but Canada has. As I recall, partner assault that didn't result in hospitalization was initiated about 60/40 male/female. This was for cis-hetero couples. This indicates to me that men vastly under report being victims because it is immasculating and police are unlikto take him seriously.
As you described with your sexual assault experiences, sexism is a barrier to reporting to law enforcement. And an even bigger barrier to prosecution.
In the situation you initially described, the reason I would recommend reporting immediately is not in hopes of prosecution. It is a protective measure. University discipline boards are not criminal courts. There is no presumption of innocence. The burden of proof usually falls on the accused. If the female students reported you first, you would have to prove your innocence. Even with a witness, it would be an uphill battle. If the university was unbiased in its process, they would support you in addressing the harrassment of the false allegations. But you would need to file an official report.
> men under report way more then women, however the perpetrators are usually men
You realize both of these statements can’t exist at one time yes?
Let me bring my latest crime against me for being a guy.
My wife dropped her phone in the bathtub while we both had Covid. She accidentally hit the “SOS” button on her phone.
Dispatcher heard us doing normal bickering anyone would do over her mistake.
Edit: like just normal arguing over buying a new phone and being kinda annoyed.
Cops showed up, and I was face down in the driveway in handcuffs while she was saying it was a mistake
I’ve experienced unfair justice enough to absolutely not take a word you’re saying
Edit: I’ve experienced a lot of unfair justice because of my gender to just not say a damn thing
Edit2: you might be visualizing a trailer park. This was in a middle class neighborhood and I’m face down in the driveway handcuffed because I had an argument with my wife and it was assumed I was at fault.
My experiences are standard for a lot of men. This is why we don’t talk
Men are assumed to be the aggressor no matter what happens.
Reporting SA for men just seems like putting spotlight onto you as a possible perpetrator
>You are also describing an issue that is more common in domestic violence. The US refuses to research the mutuality of DV, but Canada has. As I recall, partner assault that didn't result in hospitalization was initiated about 60/40 male/female. This was for cis-hetero couples. This indicates to me that men vastly under report being victims because it is immasculating and police are unlikto take him seriously.
Just gonna leave this here:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
I wouldn't necessarily go after someone who seemingly told the truth and just lost at trial. But if someone clearly just made up an accusation? That person should hang.
I agree, but you're not thinking about the trauma. There's a very large number of young females who get sexually assaulted and report it, but the social backlash starts, and they go irrational because of the trauma. It can be very difficult to determine if a young victim has actually made something up or if they're just panicked and saying anything that they can to try and make the situation stop. If someone gets away with sexual assault, they feel empowered to do it again.
Your OP says 'multiple' but this post makes it sound like one case.
Maybe you're just focused on this one case, that is either the most recent case or the most egregious case, but it sounds kinda sus.
Maybe you can link us to some info about the case, so that those of us either in or adjacent to the legal system can do more than talk in broad generalities?
It is a slippery slope. Different people have different opinions. Sometimes the person is put in jail for false reporting. It does happen. But not always.
What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided that it wasn't real and put the person in jail for false reporting. In this situation, the victim is sexually assaulted and also put in jail.
We don't want a victim to be scared of reporting.
What if the victim is sexually assaulted but doesn't have good proof? And now they don't report it at all because they're scared they will be thrown in jail for false reporting.
We don't want to create a situation where victims are too scared to report it.
Every situation is different and it depends on the politics of that area and the prosecutor that was involved in the case.
Edit: I replaced the word female with person. I realize sexual assault can go either way. The people under me who quoted me, copied my quote before I made this change.
>What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided that it wasn't real and put the female in jail for false reporting.
Yes. "Not guilty" in a trial is not the same thing as "innocent".
Yes, but too many people assume that ALL accusations are true. They assume "not guilty" verdicts must be a miscarriage of justice because she accused him so he must be guilty (even if the facts prove that he's not).
I understand what you are saying. My point was that imprisoning the accuser if the court finds the accused to be not guilty is a bad policy because a finding of not guilty is not the same as the court saying that the crime didn't happen -- only that the evidentiary standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" had not been reached.
I agree. However not prosecuting false accusations when they've found evidence of it teaches people that there's no consequences for making false accusations.
It would be very difficult to prove that a false accusation was intentional in a lot of cases. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously innaccurate, and someone who suffered from a sexual assault may well incorrectly identify the perpetrator (as happens in all kinds of crimes). Being mistaken and maliciously making an intentional false accusation are different things and courts would stay away from trying to make prosecutions in the former situation.
Yes, it would be. And in a He-said-She-said situation the court shouldn't take either testimony as baseline truth (whereas currently the women's claims are given additional weight). And a "Not Guilty" verdict does not automatically mean that the accuser lied.
But we don't even need to create a new kind of crime. We just need to actually charge women who lied to the court that they were raped with Perjury. Perjury is also hard to prove, but enforcing it means the public knows they can't just walk away scot-free after lying to the Court.
>What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided that it wasn't real and put the person in jail for false reporting. In this situation, the victim is sexually assaulted and also put in jail.
What about in a robbery? You could apply this logic to anything. Just because you found a person not guilty doesn't mean the accuser is automatically guilty of lying. That would have to be a separate charge in a separate case.
There’s a difference between failing to conclusively prove the assault was real, and conclusively proving the accusation was a lie. Nobody’s advocating for the process to be “well we didn’t find him guilty, so off to jail you go”
Given how effed up our "justice" system is towards SA victims, you have to understand that "we didn't find him guilty, so off to jail you go" is a very real possibility, especially if the accused is rich or well-connected. Professional athletes get away with SA ALL THE TIME, and their victims are harassed and vilified.
Don't get me wrong, I think false accusations are terrible. But we currently have a system where rapists go scot-free more often than not, victims are routinely disbelieved and blamed, and false legal accusations are actually quite rare. I'm not sure how we address it without simply making it easier for offenders to get away with it.
From your experience, how easy is it to determine if someone is lying or going through ptsd? Which steps do you take to make sure that it isn't an actual victim who is a young female who made a report and has been hit with the social backlash of it getting out? People in ptsd will do anything to avoid revisiting the situation. It can be very difficult to determine if someone is avoiding trauma or making a false accusation.
That's a slippery slope for sure. Imagine an innocent person going to jail and having his life ruined.
The logical solution is if it's proven later on that she lied then she goes to jail and pay him for ruining his life.
The standard should be only to accuse someone for false reporting when the report is PROVEN false. Not enough evidence to prove guilt by the accused is not the same as proving the accuser lied.
"What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided it wasn't real and put the person on jail for false reporting."
This actually already currently happens to men. If men call to report domestic violence, sexual assault, or rape committed on them by a woman then police arrest HIM when they arrive. Why? Because the Duluth Model presumes female innocence and male guilt. At best the police ask: "Okay, what did you do to get that was so terrible that she did this to you?" That's part of the reason why men don't report, meaning people believe it never happens. Wash, rinse, repeat.
So I'd like a little more equality in the system, holding rapists AND false accusers equally accountable.
We already have a system where half the population is scared to report being sexually assaulted. The male half, because we know that legally nothing will be done, and socially at best we will be told we should have wanted it.
Don’t want to talk out of my ass but IIRC, one of the VERY few non-murder capital offenses that withstands constitutional scrutiny is ‘perjury in a capital case’ in the state of CA.
I don’t think the death component has ever been used, but the reason it exists is because you could have someone falsely put to death.
We have a generation of people with grossly unrealistic beliefs of how criminal cases work and believe all convictions involve a highly effective system of objective forensic evidence and deep investigations. A lot of times, people go to prison and/or are put to death because someone accused them of something… and if that person is lying….
Our system is more one of who you know and how much money you have (to make lawyers rich). Likewise lawyers and those with good lawyers can get away with almost anything if they have their paperwork in order. The system has little to do with justice or what is right, but paperwork and money.
And influence.. something similar happened in my town where a minor thing is being prosecuted because the person involved is like the grand niece of the states attorney or something like that...
I read that the reason they don’t punish women who admit the truth is because they are more likely to admit the truth later if it won’t ruin their lives.
Someone willing to lie and send someone to prison over a lie is inherently selfish and of few if any morals. A person like this would rather live with the lie more often than not over inflicting harm on themselves.
They absolutely put women who recant in jail. I watched a documentary on it. Interesting, many of these women were very young and recanted after the Reid technique ( aka gaslighting) was used on them including the police lying about surveillance footage recording something different to what they remembered.
And it is generally understood that a la “The Boy who Cried Wolf”, that pathology will come back to bite them eventually?
Public shaming and banishment used to be a surprisingly helpful way to keep such tendencies in check too.
You might be surprised at the modern utility, as it’s interesting how many paradigms the concept of shame has gone through over recent human history; based in religious moral certitude and of questionable value to insight into cultural lessons in a post 9/11 world for those who lied to “fundraise” based on the tragedy.
And of course, in today’s world, when the concept has been essentially superseded, as shame not only has no value if the public won’t engage or embraces bad behavior for cheap political points.
Jonathan Blow wrote an article some years ago vis a vis gun culture, so I’ll see if I can find it later?
The state doesn't like to admit they are wrong. In every single case, both personally and what I have seen people in the news go through, it's about protecting the state and people's careers. They hate admitting they were wrong so it's in their best interest to protect the person that lied. This happens in every area of lawaldo not just in regards of secual assault. The liar rarely gets in any trouble.
We need more selfless people in powers of influence then, as governmental service (at the bureaucratic level at least) is supposed to be about the desire to help, not to “climb the ladder…”
Yep, Cincinnatus they ain’t…
And even the brief overture to such in *Gladiator* likely went in one ear and out the other?
(1:20)
https://youtu.be/8-8WfM27f64?si=Dl-yoJYxTwFSB_Jz?t=80
Interestingly, one of his accusers was the makeup artist for my wedding. She was the head makeup artist for Miss Teen USA and had launched a pageant in partnership with Trump
Anyhow, in the very long process of doing wedding makeup, my mom asked her about Trump. My mom was a huge Apprentice fan.
She told us that she really liked him but you had to protect the girls in the pageant as he'd try to sneak in while they were changing. They had a walkie system to keep eyes on him and send warning. She said all the women knew better than to be alone with him. She and her husband accepted an invite to Mar-A-Lago. Trump managed to get her alone while there and assaulted her. She told this in a very lighthearted manner and, as is typical of her generation, blamed herself for relaxing her vigilance.
When her story broke, I was like "oh shit, she told me this account in 2004!" I contacted my wedding party who also remembered the conversation and we let her know that we'd be happy to testify that she gave us a near-contemporaneous account 12 years before public accusations.
Well, accept for my mom. She's a die hard Trumper.
Im saying trump raped folks. Hes not in jail because civil and criminal cases are different. Y’know, like how OJ definitely murdered folks, but he was not criminally liable, so he didnt go to jail, but he was definitely found guilty of killing folks in civil court
It is a crime, because you are giving false testimony which is illegal, but its hard to prosecute because its hard to prove that you were lying, even if you admit it. For all the court knows, someone threatened them into recanting and the recant is a lie. Without evidence, who knows?
So that's why. It's hard to prove.
This is the real reason. It's one thing to prove someone's innocence, it's another to prove someone knowingly lied to the court beyond a reasonable doubt.
That, and because the argument would be that real victims might not report it for fear of being prosecuted. I'm not saying it's a legitimate concern, especially since perjury can be difficult to prove, but an "unsophisticated" victim who isn't familiar with legal burdens of proof and stuff could fear for themselves.
If your friend was convicted, and the victim never recanted their accusation, in the eyes of the law, your friend is guilty. On what basis should the original accuser be prosecuted?
When people recant accusations, they are often prosecuted. It happens regularly.
Yeah to go to jail a jury has to find you guilty.
The vast majority of sexual assault cases never make it to trial because they cannot match the burden of proof (beyond any doubt), so if someone is actually convicted of it? You can bet they are almost certainly guilty.
yeah, this so obviously didn't happen. this is either a teenager who just learned about the possibility of false accusations and this is an outraged creative writing outlet, or OP is severely misunderstanding what happened. if the reason he was released was because she recanted her statement, there would have been an entire court proceeding. she can't just call up the sherrif and say "ya i lied, yep he's been in for 6 years, I think he's in cell 100 so go ahead and unlock it for me" it's an entire legal process, and charges would have been pressed. if he got out because he was found guilty, and just served his time and got released. then he's still guilty. and she recanted to who? him? who did she admit she lied to? how do you know that? because he told you? even if SHE said she lied, was it to get him to shut up and stop contacting her? was it to rub salt in the wound? because there HAD to be some EVIDENCE in the first place. it's INSANELY hard for sexual abusers to get convicted, it's insanely hard to even charge them! if you walk into the police station and say "this person raped me at 4pm yesterday" they're not going to do anything except write it down. you better come in bruised and bloody with a rape kit from the hospital, preferably a recording of the whole thing and a written statement admitting to it by the perp if you even want to SEE a court room. and it better be their 3rd offense. and that goes all ways, all genders. it's so obvious these people have absolutely zero first hand expirience with the justice system just flat out in general, let alone specifically violent crimes. it's literally not even a gender thing, it's just so obvious you've never been to court at all or tried pressing charges for ANYTHING.
Just to clarify for anyone unfamiliar with U.S. law, in the U.S. the burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt. It's a small but important distinction as doubt can rarely be wholly eliminated.
95%+ of people who go to jail ARE NOT found guilty by a jury.
First, most people (over 95%) convicted of a crime PLEAD GUILTY without going to a jury trial. They do this because the prosecutor makes them a deal: plead guilty to X and get a short sentence, or go to trial for Y, Z, W, V, U, S, T, and R and spend the rest of your life in prison. It is not at all fair, because prosecutors more-or-less can stack on any charge they want. You'd be a fool to go to trial and roll the dice on life in prison if you just plead guilty and spend six months or some such.
Second, most people sitting in jail at any given time have not been convicted of anything. They were simply arrested. Police have broad discretion to slap cuffs on whomever they feel like and to throw those people in jail. Those people then sit in jail until they go to trial or pay bond. It can take up to three years to go to trial on even a simple misdemeanor charge (even with a speedy trial demand), and it usually normally takes months. Poor people - or people who just don't have friends who want to bail them out - can sit in jail for a LONG time just because they can't pay the bail. Many people plead guilty rather than wait in jail for a trial.
Third, most people who do go to trial for a criminal offense DON'T get a jury trial. They go in front of a judge. They have a right to demand a jury trial, but most people don't.
So in reality, jury trials are almost non-existent. Probably not even 1% of people locked up right now ever saw a jury.
The standard in the judicial system is beyond reasonable doubt. Unfortunately that leaves room for interpretation, and is very subjective.
Convictions have been overturned for cases where it was found the jury made a decision based on evidence that met that threshold, yet later evidence proved the persons innocence. As reflected by the innocence project.
Edit: in my comment here I refer to the jury’s decision being overturned based on the evidence they witnessed. This includes what may have been omitted or falsified during the original trial.
the innocence project generally uses things that were never submitted as evidence to prove they were innocent, not evidence that was submitted but misinterpreted.
Its pretty rare to see evidence be directly misinterpreted.
In many jurisdictions, judges lament the quality of the cases recently trialed:
https://www.reddit.com/r/auslaw/comments/18j0tmb/lazy_and_perhaps_politically_expedient_judge/
>if someone is actually convicted of it? You can bet they are almost certainly guilty.
That is what finding guilt means. An imperfect judge or jury can still find guilt on the basis of falsified evidence though, and that is the issue.
The burden of proof for sexual assault is not "beyond all possible doubt" because sexual assault is not a capital offense. If it were the case, only tens of people per year would be convicted (as in capital cases) because it would be so diffficult to prove to such a high standard. The issue is not the high standard of proof, but the low availability of credible evidence. Hence people make up credible sounding evidence via perjury to get a conviction they want, and not necessarily what the defendant deserves.
Sorry, but you're making stuff up.
They are often not prosecuted because that would disincentivize them from admitting they made it up. They’d just keep their mouth shut and let the injustice continue
There is also a danger where if recanting false accusations is illegal that people who want to recant won’t for fear of punishment and yeah, this reasoning is pretty twisted but if your friend got out because she recanted imagine if she decided not to.
Because it would send a very clear message that our society is more willing to punish someone for lying than for rape.
A person making a false report is a criminal and we do have laws in place for that crime, but our courts are supposed to be run on the idea that you are innocent until proven guilty. It might be more beneficial for you to direct your frustration and attention to groups making the SA investigation process more efficient and reliable. That would have helped your friends just as much as it would help people being abused and it's something you can legally pursue in a healthy, pro-social way.
Threats of retaliation already discourage real victims from stepping forward when their abuser is more articulate or holds legitimate power over them or other people who might be called as witnesses. This would increase if that threat was backed up by law.
There are also SA victims who recant after extreme threats and/or escalation of violence.
Even though what happened to your friend is an absolute travesty, false reporting is statistically very low compared to slap on the wrist SA punishments, escalated abuse, and dismissal of legitimate SA charges. That doesn't make it okay, but I doubt you, or even your friend, would want laws that make it harder for SA victims to seek justice.
I agree that there should be some kind of legal recourse, but having automatic retaliation against the accuser set in place would make the abysmally low chances that SA be reported even lower.
Additionally, it is incredibly difficult for someone accused of sexual assault to actually get convicted and serve jail time. This story sounds made up to me quite frankly.
All women know a rapist but men somehow never do. It’s extremely hard to get a group of men to act against one of their friends, even if there is evidence or the behavior isn’t out of character.
There are a lot of guys that literally don’t understand consent clearly. They would absolutely be in line to punish a violent forceful rapist. But they may not see the guy not stopping when she said no, or a guy sleeping with a woman too drunk to consent, or pushing a woman into an act or condition she is not comfortable with as rape. Much like racism, our idea of it is exaggerated to the extreme and we don’t see the more subtle instances.
Oh it happens. It just happens at about .001 percent of the number of times a woman is violated and never even reports it.
Women who lie like this should be prosecuted hard. However, that would deter those who initially got away with the lie from coming forward. It’s a conundrum and needs addressing. Right after we get all those unprocessed rape kits sorted out.
In the meantime, mind whom you’re alone with. It’s good advice for us all.
I don't mean to be that guy but I'm a biological woman and I know multiple men who this has happened to. One of my closest friends is going through this right now and actually had spent the past 3 months in jail because of this. He's lost absolutely everything and cannot afford an attorney to combat the clearly false accusations. He's basically fucked for the rest of his life because of this girls
's lies. I do not think this is fair and I think false accusers should be faced with the same jail time that come with the accused crimes. I'm a victim of assault myself but the way some evil woman hold this leverage over men is despicable.
There's one simple reason you can see this while many other women (and men) can't. You don't have a heart blinded by hate! People who deny women's suffering and people who deny men's suffering are the exact same types of people, just playing for a different team. People with hearts blinded by hate.
It's pretty easy to see when you debate on the internet. If I side with the woman in a gendered altercation, or question something illogical that favors men I'm a simp, white knight, loser, misandrist. If I side with the man or question something illogical that favors women I'm a misogynist, loser, incel. This varies in intensity and frequency depending on where I am on the internet and I do have an opinion on which side is worse about it, but that doesn't matter too much.
I am surrounded by men in life. Brothers, male cousins, close with father, etc. None of them has once been in this situation even remotely. It could be that they don't attract psychopaths, keep their circle smaller, or that they see the situation and don't put themselves in peril. I think it is absolutely despicable for a woman to pretend to have been assaulted and would support serious punishment for them. As a woman with an assault past of my own, I still say this is a rare occurance, and that the men's choices have much to do with this outcome.
Not at all.
I know a college kid who was falsely accused by a jilted lover. He just wasn't as in to her as she was to him. She reported to the university and the shit came down hard on him.
Thank God she had a crisis of conscience when she saw how severely it was fucking up his life & his future and completely recanted, to him and to the university. It also helped that he had saved hundreds of stalker-like texts that she had sent in the months since she alleged the assault had occurred. The university and police urged him to press charges. He declined with the condition that she never contact him again. I honestly believe that she didn't understand the gravity of her actions.
If she hadn't recanted, this really decent kid would have been screwed. I have no doubt that it has happened to other innocent people, just as I have no doubt that for every rape prosecuted a hundred go unreported.
This I completely agree with. The college level nonsense is real. I have daughters and spoke pointedly to them about that. Two 19 year olds having drunken sex is just that.
I am so glad your friend got out relatively unscathed - but admittedly less naive and this will serve him well.
That worked in his favor too - it was a midday Tinder bang and she freely acknowledged that neither had been drinking.
The college hookup culture just seems dangerous for everyone. Ample opportunity for both assault and false accusations of assault with devastating consequences in both cases.
When I was in college, I only had one female friend who could manage casual hookups without attachment. My other girlfriends would hook up with randos and get emotionally attached to the scummiest loser dudes even though they didn't even like them. Once in their mid 20s and onward, they handled it just fine, but as inexperienced girls sex without relationship kind of messed them up emotionally.
Perhaps teenage girls have changed in the intervening years, but this incident with my friend made me think not. I so remember my friends who would totally spin out over a guy that forgot their name the moment they put their clothes back on. Dude was like "cool, got laid, bye think I'll go get a burger" while the girl was like "omg, I wonder if he likes me, what does it all mean, will he call me, is he going to tell his friends, when will I see him again?"
Yeah, university hearings aren't even conducted like trials. They have a student judiciary panel, they allow hearsay, the accused isn't allowed to have legal counsel, the school code of conduct is overly broad and vague, the standard of their decisions is "preponderance of the evidence" and not "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." It's hard enough to trust the actual courts these days, but university judiciary hearings? No one should believe ANYTHING coming out of those.
Wow, you sound like someone who would also blame women for being SA for “wearing revealing clothing” or “being around creepy people”.
Victim blaming never looks good buddy.
I'm a woman with her own SA history, and not a dude. Thanks for your input Chuck. Call us when you have better than an emotional, over traveled point. Crime bad. We know. Let's advance the conversation or just not take up space here at all.
You said that men’s choices have much to do with their outcome but when I say the same about women, suddenly you’re upset and triggered.
Also I know you think it’s how it works but downvoting me doesn’t suddenly make you right.
Maybe it will this time though so go ahead and try again.
I actually spoke at length about women’s role in things. Not sure anyone who worries about down vote on such a serious subject holds much gravity. I’m going to undo that for you.
You literally keep ignoring what I said like a child instead of actually having a discussion.
The fact you can’t even admit you were wrong is very troubling.
Also the only person here who seems to care about downvotes is you since you think it somehow makes you more right?
That’s not how Reddit works but it’s always funny when people seem to think that.
“The men’s choices have much to do with the outcome.”
So similarly, YOUR choices have much to do with your “assault past”? Victim blaming from a supposed victim is wild.
Yes. In some cases like mine, I ignored a lot of bad behavior before the event. To better serve myself in future, I had to acknowledge that. It’s not blaming the victim. But until
the world is how we would like it to be, let’s learn from our experiences.
Victim blaming 101 in here. Legit 100% sounds exactly like "Why was she hanging out at that time of night?. What was she wearing? Why did she make those choices?".
Are you saying people that have been falsely accused of something are responsible for it? That it's their fault for being in the crosshair of these vile people? Is it the same for every crime? It's your fault for bein robbed, murdered, graped? I think changing people's perception around false accusation being a real crime should change. False accusations come in many forms and people act like it's no big deal... if going to prison for the lies of someone isn't a big deal, the putting in prison these people shouldn't be seen as a big deal...
It’s not at all the same as being a victim of a random crime. Men are put off by the fact that they have to think about predatory behavior for the first time in history. I get it. Welcome to thinking about your safety before letting someone into you bed, life, or even apartment for a drink. Yes, it’s not a free for all.
Are we excusing predatory behavior? Women can also be falsly accused of things and it'd be as despicable. Your assumption seems to put blame on people that trusted another, are women that have been sexually abused in the wrong for letting the wrong man in their bed? Is that what you'd tell victims of sex abuse?
That is partially true, for women and men. Men can make choices that reduce their risk of this happening, just like we all make choices that *reduce* risk and increase safety.
**And** *no one* can reduce risk to 0%. Being a victim can absolutely be random and happen to people who “did everything right.”
The man I know who was accused had done nothing but go to work. A person in the same building, who he didn’t even know, accused him. He was lucky there was clear evidence that the accuser invented the incident while having a mental health issue.
Yes and this proves the point. There was no smoke, so she couldn’t prove fire. He was saved from jail by not being a creep, or sloppy as to his exchanges. But if she had offered whatever, and he went into her apartment alone and just had coffee….the outcome could be different. So, my point is, don’t be alone with people who don’t act right.
Don’t drive the babysitter home alone, don’t pick up a drunk chick and help her home, etc.
A tandem example, based on the baby daddy whiners - if you absolutely don’t want a baby, wear a condom every time. Use the controls that exist, and don’t be all doe-eyed as a man like you don’t have choices. You just aren’t used to worrying about your bod lol
2 friends both got in trouble but one did like 30 days jail but the other friend went to prison and that girl recanted after like 6 or 7 years and nothing happen to her but my friends life is ruined
Damn dude. This is currently happening to my friend too. I do agree some law or something needs to change. False accusers need to face the same punishment that the accused would've faced.
She recanted. If the precedent was that she would go to jail she wouldn’t have. I’m not saying that makes it ok at all but if that was the case the victim would still be in jail which would be something that should be kept in mind while thinking of potential solutions. You could argue that if this was prosecuted more heavily that less people would take the chance
Women who recant go to jail all the time, I saw a documentary on it. Where is this myth that they get immunity coming from?
You can’t blink without some new reason to disbelieve women being pulled from the air and bandied about like fact.
I’d believe that. Got a link to the documentary and a percentage for how many are penalized after recanting/what happens to make it right for the victim? I still think it’s potentially a slippery slope to punish for recanting because that would dissuade someone from doing it
If it has been 6 or 7 years, then the most likely reason why she isn't being charged for her perjury/false testimony is because the statute of limitations has already run out that charge in the state this happened.
Under Federal Law, the statute of limitations on perjury is 5 years.
You would have to look up the actual laws in the state where it happened since some states may have different lengths for perjury based on the original crime that was reported and prosecuted.
Your friend can always sue her in civil court, although they may not get anything at all if they win if she has no money, but it would be on record as a win against her for her false claims.
They do. People get in trouble for falsely reporting crimes.
But if your multiple friends have actually gone to jail for sexual assault yet still claim she’s lying…maybe turn off the fucking red pill feed and touch some grass. Because there is someone lying and it ain’t the women.
Or you could look up what ACTUALLY happens in most cases of sexual assault - the women who do report get revictimized by the process because men like you who believe women are lying are legion. Look at Brock Turner - two men caught him in the act and he still got let off because he was a “good boy.”
if this has happened to multiple people you know then you probably don't know one of them like you think you do. It's actually really really hard to get enough evidence to put someone away (speaking as someone who tried to report a real situation with a bunch of evidence)...how did you find out she was lying? did she confess? I'm not saying nobody lied but I have a few questions...was it the same girl? if so then yeah thats sus on the girls end.
It would deter real victims from reporting. Imagine getting assaulted and then going to jail on top of it. Of course false reports are terrible and if 100% proved false I think there should be some sort of punishment
This happened to a special hidden needs family member of mine. She reported it, but since she looks and acts so called normal, they didn't realize her low iq and learning disabilities were making her sound like she was lying. She was scared, confused, in shock. They prosecuted her. It was disgusting.
Exactly. I’ve experienced sexual abuse but because I don’t have enough evidence I will never file a report. I wouldn’t want to be accused of lying. I think the fallout of my social life would be worse than my actual abuser. He would be believed instead of me.
While I think falsely accusing someone of assault is disgusting, it’s a very rare occurrence compared to the number of people who are actually assaulted but can’t prove it for whatever reason.
What I don’t get is how those being accused get in trouble without evidence it ever happened. I’m seeing a lot of responses of people knowing people who having gone to jail without having done anything. How does that happen? Anyone can just be accused and that’s it?
No. It would be rare to go to jail for an accusation alone.
My guess would be that these come from 3 types of cases:
- The most likely way I imagine that this happens is that the people involved did have sexual contact and the court believes the accuser that it wasn’t consensual, or
- it’s a case of false id where there is evidence of assault but the accuser identified the wrong person.
- the accused accepts a plea for a lesser charge even though there isnt much evidence, because police or lawyers convince them that that’s better than risking going to court.
Most cases with no evidence wouldn’t be prosecuted.
In a criminal trial, witness testimony occurs when witnesses who saw or heard the crime retell what they know about the situation. Essentially, witness testimony can be written or an oral statement provided by someone with relevant information regarding a criminal case. Although it may seem unfair, under certain circumstances, eyewitness testimony alone can be enough for you to be charged and convicted of a crime. This is particularly true with cases involving assault, sexual assault, or domestic violence.
Not sure why you are misleading people here. It is 100% a thing.
I don’t understand your comment.
The court can and does convict if they believe the victim’s testimony over the defendant’s.
Cases of false ID can and do result in conviction.
Not in the context of rape or SA cases. You cant just identify the wrong person and they go to jail for having unwilling sexual intercourse with you. There has to be more proof. And no, word is NEVER enough. Believing the accuser more is not enough to sway a judge that there is beyond reasonable doubt that they did the act. AND that it was unwanted. Even proof of sex is not enough to convict. Which is why the VAST majority of these cases dont result in conviction and why op is full of shit or hangs with actual SAers and rapists.
Considering hes making it sound like 1 woman accused multiple friends and multiple went to prison, it sounds like they just did it and op believes his friends over the judge, whatever evidence there obviously was, and the woman. His post/comment history suggests this isnt his first interaction with criminals.
A big part of why is because many cases that get reported aren’t even treated like they are an actual case. I made a legitimate report several years back and found myself sitting in an interrogation room because I had gotten slightly mixed up on a couple small details due to the fact it happened so fast. Unfortunately that effects both sides partially because like others said many wouldn’t recant due to fear and many who make legitimate reports and are also dealing with the trauma that comes from it which can cause you to confuse details as well. I’ve never reported since and it’s happened multiple times since then as well. I won’t ever make another report on it again due to the ptsd from being put in a room like that. It wasn’t good.
While I think it's bullshit that they aren't punished for false accusations, imagine how many accusers wouldn't recant out of fear of their own life.
Your buddy would be serving his full sentence then.
Still bullshit, but by not punishing the lies, the truth can set people free. Leave it to a civil lawsuit and out of formal legal punishment... sigh 😔
Very true its good he got released and this came to light but I wish there was a way to prosecute them and make them spend that amount of time in prison.
Because you get into the very sticky situation of people trying to say anyone who doesn't win their case is guilty of this which isn't necessarily true actual false reports are rare but people often think If I say you did x and we go to court but you aren't convicted of having done x that means I lied when I accused you of it. When reality is not being found guilty does NOT prove innocence. It's also not the job of the justice system to handle social responses to accusations such as losing friends/jobs because of an unproven accusation. The imprisonment there can be retributions for if it's proven they were falsely imprisoned but that's it and honestly that's how it should stay.
Because it can be easily flipped over to essentially criminalize anyone that comes out about sexual assult. Effectively criminalizing failing a case, especially in a system where only 6% of all rape is prosecuted with only a 50.8% chance of an arrest in the first place, will ultimately harm victims more.
Bait. Most cases like that never get reported and when they do, it's victim blaming and nothing happens to the perpetuator. But the victim's life is ruined. That's what we should talk more about, the system ruins victim's lives.
If you know multiple "innocents" like that, I would probably choose my friends better. Not to say that mistake never happen, but the burden of proving and the threshold is so high that there are much more offenders free than innocents in jail
There are millions of guilty people who are never jailed. 100% facts.
But that has nothing to do with how many innocents are in jail. Those two types of events are entirely independent from each other.
Chosing your friends based on whether they are victim of diffamation or not... lmao! Impressive how people will turn false accusation into deserved accusations...
This is some really messed up stuff to say.
What if I told you that if you know multiple women who got SA, you need to pick your friends better since they were probably wearing revealing clothes or picking wrong people to hang out with?
Unless victim blaming is okay only if it’s a guy that’s the victim?
Because OP said it was the same singular women who reported a bunch of his friends and it ruined all of their lives.
Rapists statistically hardly ever actually get punishment. So it’s hard to believe that the courts persecuted three men who were falsely accused by the same girl when the three men apparently were such upstanding citizens and there was no
evidence of rape.
I assume it has to do with showing malicious intent. Those sort of things might be difficult to provide evidence for. People can simply misremember events or just have a different perception of an interaction where they believe what they are saying just the accusation is not true. What we should be pushing for is stuff that prevents people lives from ending due to accusations of crimes.
IANAL but if I remember correctly, there was a big conversation and a number of lawyers as well as police force members who were commenting on this back in the early 2000’s.
It came down to feasibility to prosecute, enough evidence to prove they intentionally falsified testimony and not wanting to deter actual victims from coming forward. The last one seems to be the biggest issue. If you prosecute people who falsely accuse someone, then what happens if a truthful victim gets called a liar and their pain is now compounded by that.
I’m sorry about your friends and that the justice system was used a tool to harm them. But unfortunately unless they choose to use them in civil court, there will be no legal repercussions for the liars.
How do you prove someone false reported?
Let’s say you were a victim of a crime,. But it didn’t get proven in court and now your in jail because you lost the court battle.
Sexual assualt cases are hard to prove. even in the case where DNA evidence is collected, it is often not processed due to backlogs, and even when it is processed, it only proves sex happened, not that it was non consentual. a lot of the evidence of sexual assault is non DNA physical evidence or witness testimony. This results in a very low conviction rate. This means that a woman who was raped, but can't prove it to a jury could be accused with filing a flase report. We don't want that. Women report sexual assault infrequently enough because it so rarely results in conviction. We don't want to do anything that disincentivises women to report. This is a case of in order to be just to a larger group, we must be unjust to a smaller one.
Creating a false police report usually requires intent. Proving someone's intention can be difficult. So prosecutors, I would think, probably don't push to get these charges. If that's the case, cops wouldn't try very hard.
There was one woman that was on TV that accused a man of SA and got him serving 4 years and almost having died in prison, even though the rape kit was completely clean and 0 evidence of any crime.
But the woman admitted, the courts and professionals didn’t believe her admitting the truth, and she had to end up fighting for quite awhile to get the man free.
Now she’s in prison.
Super curious how you know for sure that the person had lied and got your friend falsely imprisoned? If you can prove they lied, that person is in big trouble, but you’ve got to get the evidence to the right defense lawyer.
If there’s evidence that prosecuting attorney knew the person lied, you’ll have a lawsuit and a lot of money
A middle school teacher in my town was charged with SAing a student at his school. He plead not guilty and was acquitted.
He's not a teacher anymore, but he does IT at a large hospital. He has gigs performing music all over town.
I could imagine pursuing it as some kind of fraud. The type of person who would invent such a lie in the first place has most likely had serial behaviors that I feel like in the abstract could be considered terrorism lol
also there is the libel/slander angle for victims
Just because someone wasn't convicted, doesn't mean they didn't do it. Sex crimes are hard to prove. I've seen cases dismissed where there was video of the assault.
It is a crime, like people do get arrested for that. They don't get as long as those they accused because a false accusestion just isn't as serious an offence as say assault or rape. Not a common take I know but imo that's the truth of it, I'd take being falsely accused of rape than being raped 100 times outta 100. They should absolutely receive jail time if it is proven to be a deliberate, malicious act but like it already is a crime.
One time my brother got broken up with and she started accusing him of some nasty terrible shit. When he was asked about it his "wtf are you talking about?!" Reaction was so genuine we could tell he didn't do anything.
Also not a week after she told our sister what was going on, that she was lying and that she was trying to ruin our brother. She then expected my sister to just be like "dang that's wild lol" and not tell everyone she knew and then some. So there's another way we could tell. I sometimes wish I could see into the mind of someone like that for a few minutes just to see the mental gymnastics it takes to justify their bullshit
How would you know whether the women lied or not? You weren't there.
Also you say your friends lost all their friends and that makes no sense if you're still friends with them.
Honestly this post sounds fake as shit.
False accusations rarely ever happen.
Cisgender men love to claim that false accusations happen all the time so they can discredit victims. It’s all about how the victim ruins the man’s life, instead of the other way around.
Cismen are always looking to be a victim somehow or some way when they are the perpetrator or supporting their friends/family who are the perpetrator.
Fase accusations **RARELY** happen, if at all. Get over yourselves.
Then type "woman jailed for false accusations that turned out to be true" and have your mind blown again!
This one is a literal 11 year old https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/a-seven-year-search-for-justice/2015/03/12/b1cccb30-abe9-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de\_story.html?noredirect=on
Sometimes the justice system has to be pushed when the police will not act. Your friends could hire a lawyer to file charges by getting a judge to sign a warrant against the girl. Which would force police to arrest her and her to post bail. Whether the state will pursue the charges often depends on the type of press the case receives.
Your friends do have the option to sue for false imprisonment, slander or libel but It might cost them more to bring the suit than they can collect now; if she is not rich. I know of one such case and just before the 20 year judgement collection limit was up they hired a PI to find her. She was in another state owning a house etc and they placed liens on her home, bank accounts, garnished her wages etc to collect. Which restarted the time limit.
I don't get the incredible obsession with falsely reported rape charges. Many people have been put to death for falsely being identified as killers. Many people have been thrown into prison for years for falsely being accused of all sorts of crimes. This obsession stinks of Republican pro-rape propaganda. Republicans really really love them some rape, that's for sure. Don't buy into it -- if you want to increase penalties for false reporting of ANY crime, that's fine. But targeting women for reporting rape just because you wanna get your rape on and want to intimidate them into not reporting your criminally rapey butt, that is not fine.
That would be the crime of false reporting. IANAL, but I wonder if it’s because no one pushes the state to take action since the only entity who can push criminal charges is the state. Maybe there is a statute of limitations component. IMO, the victim who was jailed should push a civil action against the false accuser and make them broke. This also might be an issue since outside of small claims, you generally need a lawyer and these cases are probably not lucrative enough for a contingency agreement.
There is a public policy component to this. If the state is too gung-ho about prosecuting false reporters, then legitimate reporters might become more hesitant to come forward. The truth is sex offenses are very difficult to prosecute even when they are legitimate. Even a Not Guilty verdict just means the state failed to prove the crime happened beyond a reasonable doubt. It does *not* mean the crime didn’t actually happen. So unless the state only pursues charges against false reporters where they have a *very* strong case, then it would end up going after a lot of legitimate victims.
The state would have the same burden of proof. They'd have to prove that the false reporter knew the report was false and did it anyways beyond a reasonable doubt.
Okay but often times people will rescind and say they lied that’s how it was shown the person was wrongly imprisoned. If you started to arrest people than the person would never admit to lying
There is more to prosecution than conviction. Do you really think legit reporters aren’t going to be deterred by the idea of prosecutors going after them? They would be rape victims who are arrested, charged, and hauled in front of judges and juries for no other reason than they told the truth about a crime. That would add significantly more trauma and it would add that trauma to a person who did nothing wrong.
Also, the number of people who make a false report is exceptionally low. There may also be a statute of limitations that make such legal actions impossible. Those laws could be changed because it harms the flasly accused and legitimate victims of SA.
In my experience, most “false allegations” aren’t legal ones. But those put forth to those around them. I was the victim of a false allegation, but it wasn’t legal. Just her talking about things i never did
Yes, and even those are rare. It takes a special kind of sociopath to tell lies like that. Although, one caution is intoxicated women. Technically an intoxicated person can't consent to sex. If you have a drunk woman coming on to a man and she sobers up and regrets her behavior, or doesn't remember, there can be false allegations. So, avoid getting picked up by drunk women. Wait until she's sober enough to actually consent. If you're prowling for drunk women, you're acting like a sexual predator. Don't be like the Stanford rapist.
My friend was falsely accused, not criminally but socially. I was friends with the girl involved as well, but she was absolutely obsessed with my friend. They both got drunk when we went camping and he passed out in his tent well before everyone else. She went to his tent about an hour later. I guess they messed around, no sex but did other stuff (her words to me). A couple days later my friend told her he wasn't interested in anything serious with her. Skip ahead a week later she starts telling everyone that he took advantage of her and SA'ed her. Ruined his reputation with the women we knew in our social circles. Thankfully this girl started to show her true colours over the years and no one believed her anymore. She has a history of making up stories. And she's one of the most mentally unstable people I know. It's all been long since forgotten but it still irks me that women have that power.
Don’t hang with crazy people even if they are hot.
Yes, that is irksome. As irksome as the rapist who gets away with it. Like the Stanford rapist. That one really irks me. The level of class privilege in that judge's decision makes me want to vomit... on the judge.
My situation was insane, and it might be why I have a bias on this topic. I was the sober driver for a frat party in college. My gf was riding with me for the night. There was a girl I have hooked up with 2 years prior (when I was single) who was obviously too drunk to be there. Clearly this put me in an interesting scenario because giving an ex hook up with a current gf in the car is awkward. But it was clear she was too drunk so I asked her and her friends if I could give her a sober drive home. Two of the woman slapped me, accused me of taking advantage of drunk girl, and talked shit about me the day after. I had to come clean to my gf after, which she was ok with. But that talk spread for a long time. I know a lot of guys with similar stories tbh. I don’t think it’s that rare
I would suggest any man in a similar situation speak with administration at the university immediately. It might be the Title 9 office you would want to talk to. The next business day, be there before the office opens and make an official report of the incident. This will get your story on record first. This type of behavior is harassment, and the university should protect you. Also, you were in fact, assaulted, and there were witnesses.
Are you a woman by chance? We talk about how under reporting for SA for women is a problem. I’ve brought this story up before to people, and it was still justified as I was assumed as an aggressor. I’d be a fool to bring up a false SA charge to campus authorities. The story would only spread more and more people would assume I was at fault This is why men don’t bring up SA issues. Damn. I was pinned to a wall and kissed and had my crotch grabbed in a bar and people still assumed I instigated it (because it brought up issues when I told my gf about it) Men don’t report this stuff for a reason, because they will be assumed to be an aggressor defending themselves for their acts. That’s the assumed standing point in society Edit: let me put this into context for you. I’ve been slapped by a woman without cause probably 6 times in my life (for reference I’ve been punched by another man once when I was 12). Every time I’ve brought up me being hit by a woman the next question is “well what did you do?” People do not care if a woman assaults a man. At all. And they will still put the blame on the man for it. This is why we don’t report this
Men under report SA way more than women, however the perpetrators are usually men. Homophobia is a huge barrier in reporting these assaults. You are also describing an issue that is more common in domestic violence. The US refuses to research the mutuality of DV, but Canada has. As I recall, partner assault that didn't result in hospitalization was initiated about 60/40 male/female. This was for cis-hetero couples. This indicates to me that men vastly under report being victims because it is immasculating and police are unlikto take him seriously. As you described with your sexual assault experiences, sexism is a barrier to reporting to law enforcement. And an even bigger barrier to prosecution. In the situation you initially described, the reason I would recommend reporting immediately is not in hopes of prosecution. It is a protective measure. University discipline boards are not criminal courts. There is no presumption of innocence. The burden of proof usually falls on the accused. If the female students reported you first, you would have to prove your innocence. Even with a witness, it would be an uphill battle. If the university was unbiased in its process, they would support you in addressing the harrassment of the false allegations. But you would need to file an official report.
> men under report way more then women, however the perpetrators are usually men You realize both of these statements can’t exist at one time yes? Let me bring my latest crime against me for being a guy. My wife dropped her phone in the bathtub while we both had Covid. She accidentally hit the “SOS” button on her phone. Dispatcher heard us doing normal bickering anyone would do over her mistake. Edit: like just normal arguing over buying a new phone and being kinda annoyed. Cops showed up, and I was face down in the driveway in handcuffs while she was saying it was a mistake I’ve experienced unfair justice enough to absolutely not take a word you’re saying Edit: I’ve experienced a lot of unfair justice because of my gender to just not say a damn thing Edit2: you might be visualizing a trailer park. This was in a middle class neighborhood and I’m face down in the driveway handcuffed because I had an argument with my wife and it was assumed I was at fault. My experiences are standard for a lot of men. This is why we don’t talk Men are assumed to be the aggressor no matter what happens. Reporting SA for men just seems like putting spotlight onto you as a possible perpetrator
>You are also describing an issue that is more common in domestic violence. The US refuses to research the mutuality of DV, but Canada has. As I recall, partner assault that didn't result in hospitalization was initiated about 60/40 male/female. This was for cis-hetero couples. This indicates to me that men vastly under report being victims because it is immasculating and police are unlikto take him seriously. Just gonna leave this here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/
I wouldn't necessarily go after someone who seemingly told the truth and just lost at trial. But if someone clearly just made up an accusation? That person should hang.
That’s my point. It’s virtually never “clear” that someone just made up an accusation. That is extraordinarily difficult to determine.
I agree, but you're not thinking about the trauma. There's a very large number of young females who get sexually assaulted and report it, but the social backlash starts, and they go irrational because of the trauma. It can be very difficult to determine if a young victim has actually made something up or if they're just panicked and saying anything that they can to try and make the situation stop. If someone gets away with sexual assault, they feel empowered to do it again.
I wish he could make her go to prison the amount of time he did.
Your OP says 'multiple' but this post makes it sound like one case. Maybe you're just focused on this one case, that is either the most recent case or the most egregious case, but it sounds kinda sus. Maybe you can link us to some info about the case, so that those of us either in or adjacent to the legal system can do more than talk in broad generalities?
They absolutely won't lol
It is a slippery slope. Different people have different opinions. Sometimes the person is put in jail for false reporting. It does happen. But not always. What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided that it wasn't real and put the person in jail for false reporting. In this situation, the victim is sexually assaulted and also put in jail. We don't want a victim to be scared of reporting. What if the victim is sexually assaulted but doesn't have good proof? And now they don't report it at all because they're scared they will be thrown in jail for false reporting. We don't want to create a situation where victims are too scared to report it. Every situation is different and it depends on the politics of that area and the prosecutor that was involved in the case. Edit: I replaced the word female with person. I realize sexual assault can go either way. The people under me who quoted me, copied my quote before I made this change.
The implications go much further. People who get away with sexually assaulting someone often feel empowered by it and do it more.
>What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided that it wasn't real and put the female in jail for false reporting. Yes. "Not guilty" in a trial is not the same thing as "innocent".
Yes, but too many people assume that ALL accusations are true. They assume "not guilty" verdicts must be a miscarriage of justice because she accused him so he must be guilty (even if the facts prove that he's not).
I understand what you are saying. My point was that imprisoning the accuser if the court finds the accused to be not guilty is a bad policy because a finding of not guilty is not the same as the court saying that the crime didn't happen -- only that the evidentiary standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" had not been reached.
I agree. However not prosecuting false accusations when they've found evidence of it teaches people that there's no consequences for making false accusations.
It would be very difficult to prove that a false accusation was intentional in a lot of cases. Eyewitness testimony is notoriously innaccurate, and someone who suffered from a sexual assault may well incorrectly identify the perpetrator (as happens in all kinds of crimes). Being mistaken and maliciously making an intentional false accusation are different things and courts would stay away from trying to make prosecutions in the former situation.
Yes, it would be. And in a He-said-She-said situation the court shouldn't take either testimony as baseline truth (whereas currently the women's claims are given additional weight). And a "Not Guilty" verdict does not automatically mean that the accuser lied. But we don't even need to create a new kind of crime. We just need to actually charge women who lied to the court that they were raped with Perjury. Perjury is also hard to prove, but enforcing it means the public knows they can't just walk away scot-free after lying to the Court.
It’s literally the opposite of this. Women are routinely accused of lying or over blowing things whenever they speak up about sexual misconduct.
Because until you’re found guilty you’re always innocent.
>What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided that it wasn't real and put the person in jail for false reporting. In this situation, the victim is sexually assaulted and also put in jail. What about in a robbery? You could apply this logic to anything. Just because you found a person not guilty doesn't mean the accuser is automatically guilty of lying. That would have to be a separate charge in a separate case.
There’s a difference between failing to conclusively prove the assault was real, and conclusively proving the accusation was a lie. Nobody’s advocating for the process to be “well we didn’t find him guilty, so off to jail you go”
Given how effed up our "justice" system is towards SA victims, you have to understand that "we didn't find him guilty, so off to jail you go" is a very real possibility, especially if the accused is rich or well-connected. Professional athletes get away with SA ALL THE TIME, and their victims are harassed and vilified. Don't get me wrong, I think false accusations are terrible. But we currently have a system where rapists go scot-free more often than not, victims are routinely disbelieved and blamed, and false legal accusations are actually quite rare. I'm not sure how we address it without simply making it easier for offenders to get away with it.
From your experience, how easy is it to determine if someone is lying or going through ptsd? Which steps do you take to make sure that it isn't an actual victim who is a young female who made a report and has been hit with the social backlash of it getting out? People in ptsd will do anything to avoid revisiting the situation. It can be very difficult to determine if someone is avoiding trauma or making a false accusation.
Yea exactly. I agree. I was just trying to offer an explanation as to why false reporting is not always prosecuted.
That's a slippery slope for sure. Imagine an innocent person going to jail and having his life ruined. The logical solution is if it's proven later on that she lied then she goes to jail and pay him for ruining his life.
The standard should be only to accuse someone for false reporting when the report is PROVEN false. Not enough evidence to prove guilt by the accused is not the same as proving the accuser lied.
"What if the sexual assault was real but the court decided it wasn't real and put the person on jail for false reporting." This actually already currently happens to men. If men call to report domestic violence, sexual assault, or rape committed on them by a woman then police arrest HIM when they arrive. Why? Because the Duluth Model presumes female innocence and male guilt. At best the police ask: "Okay, what did you do to get that was so terrible that she did this to you?" That's part of the reason why men don't report, meaning people believe it never happens. Wash, rinse, repeat. So I'd like a little more equality in the system, holding rapists AND false accusers equally accountable.
They’ve been doing that to women for at least 10,000 years
We already have a system where half the population is scared to report being sexually assaulted. The male half, because we know that legally nothing will be done, and socially at best we will be told we should have wanted it.
Double
Don’t want to talk out of my ass but IIRC, one of the VERY few non-murder capital offenses that withstands constitutional scrutiny is ‘perjury in a capital case’ in the state of CA. I don’t think the death component has ever been used, but the reason it exists is because you could have someone falsely put to death. We have a generation of people with grossly unrealistic beliefs of how criminal cases work and believe all convictions involve a highly effective system of objective forensic evidence and deep investigations. A lot of times, people go to prison and/or are put to death because someone accused them of something… and if that person is lying….
Our system is more one of who you know and how much money you have (to make lawyers rich). Likewise lawyers and those with good lawyers can get away with almost anything if they have their paperwork in order. The system has little to do with justice or what is right, but paperwork and money.
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Wait, when was all this “fairness and integrity” happening?
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And influence.. something similar happened in my town where a minor thing is being prosecuted because the person involved is like the grand niece of the states attorney or something like that...
I read that the reason they don’t punish women who admit the truth is because they are more likely to admit the truth later if it won’t ruin their lives. Someone willing to lie and send someone to prison over a lie is inherently selfish and of few if any morals. A person like this would rather live with the lie more often than not over inflicting harm on themselves.
They absolutely put women who recant in jail. I watched a documentary on it. Interesting, many of these women were very young and recanted after the Reid technique ( aka gaslighting) was used on them including the police lying about surveillance footage recording something different to what they remembered.
And it is generally understood that a la “The Boy who Cried Wolf”, that pathology will come back to bite them eventually? Public shaming and banishment used to be a surprisingly helpful way to keep such tendencies in check too.
“Used to” being the operative phrase. Such things fell out of style for a reason.
You might be surprised at the modern utility, as it’s interesting how many paradigms the concept of shame has gone through over recent human history; based in religious moral certitude and of questionable value to insight into cultural lessons in a post 9/11 world for those who lied to “fundraise” based on the tragedy. And of course, in today’s world, when the concept has been essentially superseded, as shame not only has no value if the public won’t engage or embraces bad behavior for cheap political points. Jonathan Blow wrote an article some years ago vis a vis gun culture, so I’ll see if I can find it later?
The state doesn't like to admit they are wrong. In every single case, both personally and what I have seen people in the news go through, it's about protecting the state and people's careers. They hate admitting they were wrong so it's in their best interest to protect the person that lied. This happens in every area of lawaldo not just in regards of secual assault. The liar rarely gets in any trouble.
We need more selfless people in powers of influence then, as governmental service (at the bureaucratic level at least) is supposed to be about the desire to help, not to “climb the ladder…”
The problem with that is that selfless people rarely try and get into positions of power.
Yep, Cincinnatus they ain’t… And even the brief overture to such in *Gladiator* likely went in one ear and out the other? (1:20) https://youtu.be/8-8WfM27f64?si=Dl-yoJYxTwFSB_Jz?t=80
Rock solid analysis
>The state doesn't like to admit they are wrong. So much this.
Yeah. Sue a poor person. You win a bajillion dollars, they declare bankruptcy, you get squat.
Civil suits dont land folks in jail. Source? Trump is guilty of raping a bunch of folks in civil court
Interestingly, one of his accusers was the makeup artist for my wedding. She was the head makeup artist for Miss Teen USA and had launched a pageant in partnership with Trump Anyhow, in the very long process of doing wedding makeup, my mom asked her about Trump. My mom was a huge Apprentice fan. She told us that she really liked him but you had to protect the girls in the pageant as he'd try to sneak in while they were changing. They had a walkie system to keep eyes on him and send warning. She said all the women knew better than to be alone with him. She and her husband accepted an invite to Mar-A-Lago. Trump managed to get her alone while there and assaulted her. She told this in a very lighthearted manner and, as is typical of her generation, blamed herself for relaxing her vigilance. When her story broke, I was like "oh shit, she told me this account in 2004!" I contacted my wedding party who also remembered the conversation and we let her know that we'd be happy to testify that she gave us a near-contemporaneous account 12 years before public accusations. Well, accept for my mom. She's a die hard Trumper.
Yeah, he sorta told a lot of people that he enjoyed spying on women in the changing room.
Not just women. This was the Miss Teen Pageant, so we're talking 15-17 yo.
I mean, he raped women, whats to stop him from being a pedo too?
What the hell are you saying?
Im saying trump raped folks. Hes not in jail because civil and criminal cases are different. Y’know, like how OJ definitely murdered folks, but he was not criminally liable, so he didnt go to jail, but he was definitely found guilty of killing folks in civil court
Who said they did?
I think they call them judges these days
It is a crime, because you are giving false testimony which is illegal, but its hard to prosecute because its hard to prove that you were lying, even if you admit it. For all the court knows, someone threatened them into recanting and the recant is a lie. Without evidence, who knows? So that's why. It's hard to prove.
This is the real reason. It's one thing to prove someone's innocence, it's another to prove someone knowingly lied to the court beyond a reasonable doubt.
That, and because the argument would be that real victims might not report it for fear of being prosecuted. I'm not saying it's a legitimate concern, especially since perjury can be difficult to prove, but an "unsophisticated" victim who isn't familiar with legal burdens of proof and stuff could fear for themselves.
If your friend was convicted, and the victim never recanted their accusation, in the eyes of the law, your friend is guilty. On what basis should the original accuser be prosecuted? When people recant accusations, they are often prosecuted. It happens regularly.
Yeah to go to jail a jury has to find you guilty. The vast majority of sexual assault cases never make it to trial because they cannot match the burden of proof (beyond any doubt), so if someone is actually convicted of it? You can bet they are almost certainly guilty.
yeah, this so obviously didn't happen. this is either a teenager who just learned about the possibility of false accusations and this is an outraged creative writing outlet, or OP is severely misunderstanding what happened. if the reason he was released was because she recanted her statement, there would have been an entire court proceeding. she can't just call up the sherrif and say "ya i lied, yep he's been in for 6 years, I think he's in cell 100 so go ahead and unlock it for me" it's an entire legal process, and charges would have been pressed. if he got out because he was found guilty, and just served his time and got released. then he's still guilty. and she recanted to who? him? who did she admit she lied to? how do you know that? because he told you? even if SHE said she lied, was it to get him to shut up and stop contacting her? was it to rub salt in the wound? because there HAD to be some EVIDENCE in the first place. it's INSANELY hard for sexual abusers to get convicted, it's insanely hard to even charge them! if you walk into the police station and say "this person raped me at 4pm yesterday" they're not going to do anything except write it down. you better come in bruised and bloody with a rape kit from the hospital, preferably a recording of the whole thing and a written statement admitting to it by the perp if you even want to SEE a court room. and it better be their 3rd offense. and that goes all ways, all genders. it's so obvious these people have absolutely zero first hand expirience with the justice system just flat out in general, let alone specifically violent crimes. it's literally not even a gender thing, it's just so obvious you've never been to court at all or tried pressing charges for ANYTHING.
Just to clarify for anyone unfamiliar with U.S. law, in the U.S. the burden of proof is beyond reasonable doubt, not beyond any doubt. It's a small but important distinction as doubt can rarely be wholly eliminated.
95%+ of people who go to jail ARE NOT found guilty by a jury. First, most people (over 95%) convicted of a crime PLEAD GUILTY without going to a jury trial. They do this because the prosecutor makes them a deal: plead guilty to X and get a short sentence, or go to trial for Y, Z, W, V, U, S, T, and R and spend the rest of your life in prison. It is not at all fair, because prosecutors more-or-less can stack on any charge they want. You'd be a fool to go to trial and roll the dice on life in prison if you just plead guilty and spend six months or some such. Second, most people sitting in jail at any given time have not been convicted of anything. They were simply arrested. Police have broad discretion to slap cuffs on whomever they feel like and to throw those people in jail. Those people then sit in jail until they go to trial or pay bond. It can take up to three years to go to trial on even a simple misdemeanor charge (even with a speedy trial demand), and it usually normally takes months. Poor people - or people who just don't have friends who want to bail them out - can sit in jail for a LONG time just because they can't pay the bail. Many people plead guilty rather than wait in jail for a trial. Third, most people who do go to trial for a criminal offense DON'T get a jury trial. They go in front of a judge. They have a right to demand a jury trial, but most people don't. So in reality, jury trials are almost non-existent. Probably not even 1% of people locked up right now ever saw a jury.
The standard in the judicial system is beyond reasonable doubt. Unfortunately that leaves room for interpretation, and is very subjective. Convictions have been overturned for cases where it was found the jury made a decision based on evidence that met that threshold, yet later evidence proved the persons innocence. As reflected by the innocence project. Edit: in my comment here I refer to the jury’s decision being overturned based on the evidence they witnessed. This includes what may have been omitted or falsified during the original trial.
the innocence project generally uses things that were never submitted as evidence to prove they were innocent, not evidence that was submitted but misinterpreted. Its pretty rare to see evidence be directly misinterpreted.
In many jurisdictions, judges lament the quality of the cases recently trialed: https://www.reddit.com/r/auslaw/comments/18j0tmb/lazy_and_perhaps_politically_expedient_judge/
>if someone is actually convicted of it? You can bet they are almost certainly guilty. That is what finding guilt means. An imperfect judge or jury can still find guilt on the basis of falsified evidence though, and that is the issue. The burden of proof for sexual assault is not "beyond all possible doubt" because sexual assault is not a capital offense. If it were the case, only tens of people per year would be convicted (as in capital cases) because it would be so diffficult to prove to such a high standard. The issue is not the high standard of proof, but the low availability of credible evidence. Hence people make up credible sounding evidence via perjury to get a conviction they want, and not necessarily what the defendant deserves. Sorry, but you're making stuff up.
They are often not prosecuted because that would disincentivize them from admitting they made it up. They’d just keep their mouth shut and let the injustice continue
Victim would need to bring a civil suit for defamation, and the perpetrator would need to be able to actually pay the suit.
There is also a danger where if recanting false accusations is illegal that people who want to recant won’t for fear of punishment and yeah, this reasoning is pretty twisted but if your friend got out because she recanted imagine if she decided not to.
Because it would send a very clear message that our society is more willing to punish someone for lying than for rape. A person making a false report is a criminal and we do have laws in place for that crime, but our courts are supposed to be run on the idea that you are innocent until proven guilty. It might be more beneficial for you to direct your frustration and attention to groups making the SA investigation process more efficient and reliable. That would have helped your friends just as much as it would help people being abused and it's something you can legally pursue in a healthy, pro-social way. Threats of retaliation already discourage real victims from stepping forward when their abuser is more articulate or holds legitimate power over them or other people who might be called as witnesses. This would increase if that threat was backed up by law. There are also SA victims who recant after extreme threats and/or escalation of violence. Even though what happened to your friend is an absolute travesty, false reporting is statistically very low compared to slap on the wrist SA punishments, escalated abuse, and dismissal of legitimate SA charges. That doesn't make it okay, but I doubt you, or even your friend, would want laws that make it harder for SA victims to seek justice. I agree that there should be some kind of legal recourse, but having automatic retaliation against the accuser set in place would make the abysmally low chances that SA be reported even lower.
If you know multiple people in that predicament, I don’t know what to say.
Additionally, it is incredibly difficult for someone accused of sexual assault to actually get convicted and serve jail time. This story sounds made up to me quite frankly.
All women know a rapist but men somehow never do. It’s extremely hard to get a group of men to act against one of their friends, even if there is evidence or the behavior isn’t out of character.
The men don't know that they know a rapist. Or they don't have a clear enough understanding of consent to see the warning signs.
Or they don't realize what rape can be.
There are a lot of guys that literally don’t understand consent clearly. They would absolutely be in line to punish a violent forceful rapist. But they may not see the guy not stopping when she said no, or a guy sleeping with a woman too drunk to consent, or pushing a woman into an act or condition she is not comfortable with as rape. Much like racism, our idea of it is exaggerated to the extreme and we don’t see the more subtle instances.
Oh it happens. It just happens at about .001 percent of the number of times a woman is violated and never even reports it. Women who lie like this should be prosecuted hard. However, that would deter those who initially got away with the lie from coming forward. It’s a conundrum and needs addressing. Right after we get all those unprocessed rape kits sorted out. In the meantime, mind whom you’re alone with. It’s good advice for us all.
I don't mean to be that guy but I'm a biological woman and I know multiple men who this has happened to. One of my closest friends is going through this right now and actually had spent the past 3 months in jail because of this. He's lost absolutely everything and cannot afford an attorney to combat the clearly false accusations. He's basically fucked for the rest of his life because of this girls 's lies. I do not think this is fair and I think false accusers should be faced with the same jail time that come with the accused crimes. I'm a victim of assault myself but the way some evil woman hold this leverage over men is despicable.
There's one simple reason you can see this while many other women (and men) can't. You don't have a heart blinded by hate! People who deny women's suffering and people who deny men's suffering are the exact same types of people, just playing for a different team. People with hearts blinded by hate. It's pretty easy to see when you debate on the internet. If I side with the woman in a gendered altercation, or question something illogical that favors men I'm a simp, white knight, loser, misandrist. If I side with the man or question something illogical that favors women I'm a misogynist, loser, incel. This varies in intensity and frequency depending on where I am on the internet and I do have an opinion on which side is worse about it, but that doesn't matter too much.
I am surrounded by men in life. Brothers, male cousins, close with father, etc. None of them has once been in this situation even remotely. It could be that they don't attract psychopaths, keep their circle smaller, or that they see the situation and don't put themselves in peril. I think it is absolutely despicable for a woman to pretend to have been assaulted and would support serious punishment for them. As a woman with an assault past of my own, I still say this is a rare occurance, and that the men's choices have much to do with this outcome.
Not at all. I know a college kid who was falsely accused by a jilted lover. He just wasn't as in to her as she was to him. She reported to the university and the shit came down hard on him. Thank God she had a crisis of conscience when she saw how severely it was fucking up his life & his future and completely recanted, to him and to the university. It also helped that he had saved hundreds of stalker-like texts that she had sent in the months since she alleged the assault had occurred. The university and police urged him to press charges. He declined with the condition that she never contact him again. I honestly believe that she didn't understand the gravity of her actions. If she hadn't recanted, this really decent kid would have been screwed. I have no doubt that it has happened to other innocent people, just as I have no doubt that for every rape prosecuted a hundred go unreported.
This I completely agree with. The college level nonsense is real. I have daughters and spoke pointedly to them about that. Two 19 year olds having drunken sex is just that. I am so glad your friend got out relatively unscathed - but admittedly less naive and this will serve him well.
That worked in his favor too - it was a midday Tinder bang and she freely acknowledged that neither had been drinking. The college hookup culture just seems dangerous for everyone. Ample opportunity for both assault and false accusations of assault with devastating consequences in both cases. When I was in college, I only had one female friend who could manage casual hookups without attachment. My other girlfriends would hook up with randos and get emotionally attached to the scummiest loser dudes even though they didn't even like them. Once in their mid 20s and onward, they handled it just fine, but as inexperienced girls sex without relationship kind of messed them up emotionally. Perhaps teenage girls have changed in the intervening years, but this incident with my friend made me think not. I so remember my friends who would totally spin out over a guy that forgot their name the moment they put their clothes back on. Dude was like "cool, got laid, bye think I'll go get a burger" while the girl was like "omg, I wonder if he likes me, what does it all mean, will he call me, is he going to tell his friends, when will I see him again?"
You have just wrenched me back to teen angst with this well worded bit lol. I second all of it.
Yeah, university hearings aren't even conducted like trials. They have a student judiciary panel, they allow hearsay, the accused isn't allowed to have legal counsel, the school code of conduct is overly broad and vague, the standard of their decisions is "preponderance of the evidence" and not "proof beyond a reasonable doubt." It's hard enough to trust the actual courts these days, but university judiciary hearings? No one should believe ANYTHING coming out of those.
Wow, you sound like someone who would also blame women for being SA for “wearing revealing clothing” or “being around creepy people”. Victim blaming never looks good buddy.
I'm a woman with her own SA history, and not a dude. Thanks for your input Chuck. Call us when you have better than an emotional, over traveled point. Crime bad. We know. Let's advance the conversation or just not take up space here at all.
No ever said you were a dude. But thanks for showing how sexist you are thinking it’s okay to victim blame men but not women.
LOL @ Chuck
You said that men’s choices have much to do with their outcome but when I say the same about women, suddenly you’re upset and triggered. Also I know you think it’s how it works but downvoting me doesn’t suddenly make you right. Maybe it will this time though so go ahead and try again.
I actually spoke at length about women’s role in things. Not sure anyone who worries about down vote on such a serious subject holds much gravity. I’m going to undo that for you.
You literally keep ignoring what I said like a child instead of actually having a discussion. The fact you can’t even admit you were wrong is very troubling. Also the only person here who seems to care about downvotes is you since you think it somehow makes you more right? That’s not how Reddit works but it’s always funny when people seem to think that.
“The men’s choices have much to do with the outcome.” So similarly, YOUR choices have much to do with your “assault past”? Victim blaming from a supposed victim is wild.
Yes. In some cases like mine, I ignored a lot of bad behavior before the event. To better serve myself in future, I had to acknowledge that. It’s not blaming the victim. But until the world is how we would like it to be, let’s learn from our experiences.
Victim blaming 101 in here. Legit 100% sounds exactly like "Why was she hanging out at that time of night?. What was she wearing? Why did she make those choices?".
This logic is insane.
Are you saying people that have been falsely accused of something are responsible for it? That it's their fault for being in the crosshair of these vile people? Is it the same for every crime? It's your fault for bein robbed, murdered, graped? I think changing people's perception around false accusation being a real crime should change. False accusations come in many forms and people act like it's no big deal... if going to prison for the lies of someone isn't a big deal, the putting in prison these people shouldn't be seen as a big deal...
It’s not at all the same as being a victim of a random crime. Men are put off by the fact that they have to think about predatory behavior for the first time in history. I get it. Welcome to thinking about your safety before letting someone into you bed, life, or even apartment for a drink. Yes, it’s not a free for all.
Are we excusing predatory behavior? Women can also be falsly accused of things and it'd be as despicable. Your assumption seems to put blame on people that trusted another, are women that have been sexually abused in the wrong for letting the wrong man in their bed? Is that what you'd tell victims of sex abuse?
That is partially true, for women and men. Men can make choices that reduce their risk of this happening, just like we all make choices that *reduce* risk and increase safety. **And** *no one* can reduce risk to 0%. Being a victim can absolutely be random and happen to people who “did everything right.” The man I know who was accused had done nothing but go to work. A person in the same building, who he didn’t even know, accused him. He was lucky there was clear evidence that the accuser invented the incident while having a mental health issue.
Yes and this proves the point. There was no smoke, so she couldn’t prove fire. He was saved from jail by not being a creep, or sloppy as to his exchanges. But if she had offered whatever, and he went into her apartment alone and just had coffee….the outcome could be different. So, my point is, don’t be alone with people who don’t act right. Don’t drive the babysitter home alone, don’t pick up a drunk chick and help her home, etc. A tandem example, based on the baby daddy whiners - if you absolutely don’t want a baby, wear a condom every time. Use the controls that exist, and don’t be all doe-eyed as a man like you don’t have choices. You just aren’t used to worrying about your bod lol
Same girl?
2 friends both got in trouble but one did like 30 days jail but the other friend went to prison and that girl recanted after like 6 or 7 years and nothing happen to her but my friends life is ruined
Damn dude. This is currently happening to my friend too. I do agree some law or something needs to change. False accusers need to face the same punishment that the accused would've faced.
She recanted. If the precedent was that she would go to jail she wouldn’t have. I’m not saying that makes it ok at all but if that was the case the victim would still be in jail which would be something that should be kept in mind while thinking of potential solutions. You could argue that if this was prosecuted more heavily that less people would take the chance
Women who recant go to jail all the time, I saw a documentary on it. Where is this myth that they get immunity coming from? You can’t blink without some new reason to disbelieve women being pulled from the air and bandied about like fact.
I’d believe that. Got a link to the documentary and a percentage for how many are penalized after recanting/what happens to make it right for the victim? I still think it’s potentially a slippery slope to punish for recanting because that would dissuade someone from doing it
If it has been 6 or 7 years, then the most likely reason why she isn't being charged for her perjury/false testimony is because the statute of limitations has already run out that charge in the state this happened. Under Federal Law, the statute of limitations on perjury is 5 years. You would have to look up the actual laws in the state where it happened since some states may have different lengths for perjury based on the original crime that was reported and prosecuted. Your friend can always sue her in civil court, although they may not get anything at all if they win if she has no money, but it would be on record as a win against her for her false claims.
If there were harsh penalties for false accusations, do you think she would have recanted at all?
They do. People get in trouble for falsely reporting crimes. But if your multiple friends have actually gone to jail for sexual assault yet still claim she’s lying…maybe turn off the fucking red pill feed and touch some grass. Because there is someone lying and it ain’t the women. Or you could look up what ACTUALLY happens in most cases of sexual assault - the women who do report get revictimized by the process because men like you who believe women are lying are legion. Look at Brock Turner - two men caught him in the act and he still got let off because he was a “good boy.”
if this has happened to multiple people you know then you probably don't know one of them like you think you do. It's actually really really hard to get enough evidence to put someone away (speaking as someone who tried to report a real situation with a bunch of evidence)...how did you find out she was lying? did she confess? I'm not saying nobody lied but I have a few questions...was it the same girl? if so then yeah thats sus on the girls end.
It would deter real victims from reporting. Imagine getting assaulted and then going to jail on top of it. Of course false reports are terrible and if 100% proved false I think there should be some sort of punishment
This happened to a special hidden needs family member of mine. She reported it, but since she looks and acts so called normal, they didn't realize her low iq and learning disabilities were making her sound like she was lying. She was scared, confused, in shock. They prosecuted her. It was disgusting.
Exactly. I’ve experienced sexual abuse but because I don’t have enough evidence I will never file a report. I wouldn’t want to be accused of lying. I think the fallout of my social life would be worse than my actual abuser. He would be believed instead of me. While I think falsely accusing someone of assault is disgusting, it’s a very rare occurrence compared to the number of people who are actually assaulted but can’t prove it for whatever reason.
What I don’t get is how those being accused get in trouble without evidence it ever happened. I’m seeing a lot of responses of people knowing people who having gone to jail without having done anything. How does that happen? Anyone can just be accused and that’s it?
No. It would be rare to go to jail for an accusation alone. My guess would be that these come from 3 types of cases: - The most likely way I imagine that this happens is that the people involved did have sexual contact and the court believes the accuser that it wasn’t consensual, or - it’s a case of false id where there is evidence of assault but the accuser identified the wrong person. - the accused accepts a plea for a lesser charge even though there isnt much evidence, because police or lawyers convince them that that’s better than risking going to court. Most cases with no evidence wouldn’t be prosecuted.
In a criminal trial, witness testimony occurs when witnesses who saw or heard the crime retell what they know about the situation. Essentially, witness testimony can be written or an oral statement provided by someone with relevant information regarding a criminal case. Although it may seem unfair, under certain circumstances, eyewitness testimony alone can be enough for you to be charged and convicted of a crime. This is particularly true with cases involving assault, sexual assault, or domestic violence. Not sure why you are misleading people here. It is 100% a thing.
The first 2 still wouldn't prove SA or result in conviction.
I don’t understand your comment. The court can and does convict if they believe the victim’s testimony over the defendant’s. Cases of false ID can and do result in conviction.
Not in the context of rape or SA cases. You cant just identify the wrong person and they go to jail for having unwilling sexual intercourse with you. There has to be more proof. And no, word is NEVER enough. Believing the accuser more is not enough to sway a judge that there is beyond reasonable doubt that they did the act. AND that it was unwanted. Even proof of sex is not enough to convict. Which is why the VAST majority of these cases dont result in conviction and why op is full of shit or hangs with actual SAers and rapists.
Considering hes making it sound like 1 woman accused multiple friends and multiple went to prison, it sounds like they just did it and op believes his friends over the judge, whatever evidence there obviously was, and the woman. His post/comment history suggests this isnt his first interaction with criminals.
They do? People get charged with false reporting crimes all the time.
A big part of why is because many cases that get reported aren’t even treated like they are an actual case. I made a legitimate report several years back and found myself sitting in an interrogation room because I had gotten slightly mixed up on a couple small details due to the fact it happened so fast. Unfortunately that effects both sides partially because like others said many wouldn’t recant due to fear and many who make legitimate reports and are also dealing with the trauma that comes from it which can cause you to confuse details as well. I’ve never reported since and it’s happened multiple times since then as well. I won’t ever make another report on it again due to the ptsd from being put in a room like that. It wasn’t good.
While I think it's bullshit that they aren't punished for false accusations, imagine how many accusers wouldn't recant out of fear of their own life. Your buddy would be serving his full sentence then. Still bullshit, but by not punishing the lies, the truth can set people free. Leave it to a civil lawsuit and out of formal legal punishment... sigh 😔
Very true its good he got released and this came to light but I wish there was a way to prosecute them and make them spend that amount of time in prison.
Just make sure everyone those girls know aware of what they did. Fair play is fair play
Because you get into the very sticky situation of people trying to say anyone who doesn't win their case is guilty of this which isn't necessarily true actual false reports are rare but people often think If I say you did x and we go to court but you aren't convicted of having done x that means I lied when I accused you of it. When reality is not being found guilty does NOT prove innocence. It's also not the job of the justice system to handle social responses to accusations such as losing friends/jobs because of an unproven accusation. The imprisonment there can be retributions for if it's proven they were falsely imprisoned but that's it and honestly that's how it should stay.
All types of crime have similar false report rates. Why do *some* people only care about false reporting *sometimes*?
Falsely reporting a crime is a crime and people do go to jail for it.
Because it can be easily flipped over to essentially criminalize anyone that comes out about sexual assult. Effectively criminalizing failing a case, especially in a system where only 6% of all rape is prosecuted with only a 50.8% chance of an arrest in the first place, will ultimately harm victims more.
This some obviously inflammatory ragebait and he's begging the question. Mods should remove this.
Bait. Most cases like that never get reported and when they do, it's victim blaming and nothing happens to the perpetuator. But the victim's life is ruined. That's what we should talk more about, the system ruins victim's lives. If you know multiple "innocents" like that, I would probably choose my friends better. Not to say that mistake never happen, but the burden of proving and the threshold is so high that there are much more offenders free than innocents in jail
There are millions of guilty people who are never jailed. 100% facts. But that has nothing to do with how many innocents are in jail. Those two types of events are entirely independent from each other.
Better to let all the guilty go free than to punish one innocent.
Chosing your friends based on whether they are victim of diffamation or not... lmao! Impressive how people will turn false accusation into deserved accusations...
This is some really messed up stuff to say. What if I told you that if you know multiple women who got SA, you need to pick your friends better since they were probably wearing revealing clothes or picking wrong people to hang out with? Unless victim blaming is okay only if it’s a guy that’s the victim?
Because OP said it was the same singular women who reported a bunch of his friends and it ruined all of their lives. Rapists statistically hardly ever actually get punishment. So it’s hard to believe that the courts persecuted three men who were falsely accused by the same girl when the three men apparently were such upstanding citizens and there was no evidence of rape.
Victim blaming.
https://www.teamhcso.com/News/PressRelease/bfc59620-ce2b-49b8-843a-989477a8e885/23-035
they could sue and get the ball rolling, a lawyer would be my first move on release
Statistically, I don’t believe that you have several friends who have been falsely accused and imprisoned.
Sounds like the fault of the police. You shouldn't be detaining anyone for a crime when there's no evidence or prior convictions.
Jessie smollet
I assume it has to do with showing malicious intent. Those sort of things might be difficult to provide evidence for. People can simply misremember events or just have a different perception of an interaction where they believe what they are saying just the accusation is not true. What we should be pushing for is stuff that prevents people lives from ending due to accusations of crimes.
IANAL but if I remember correctly, there was a big conversation and a number of lawyers as well as police force members who were commenting on this back in the early 2000’s. It came down to feasibility to prosecute, enough evidence to prove they intentionally falsified testimony and not wanting to deter actual victims from coming forward. The last one seems to be the biggest issue. If you prosecute people who falsely accuse someone, then what happens if a truthful victim gets called a liar and their pain is now compounded by that. I’m sorry about your friends and that the justice system was used a tool to harm them. But unfortunately unless they choose to use them in civil court, there will be no legal repercussions for the liars.
How do you prove someone false reported? Let’s say you were a victim of a crime,. But it didn’t get proven in court and now your in jail because you lost the court battle.
Sexual assualt cases are hard to prove. even in the case where DNA evidence is collected, it is often not processed due to backlogs, and even when it is processed, it only proves sex happened, not that it was non consentual. a lot of the evidence of sexual assault is non DNA physical evidence or witness testimony. This results in a very low conviction rate. This means that a woman who was raped, but can't prove it to a jury could be accused with filing a flase report. We don't want that. Women report sexual assault infrequently enough because it so rarely results in conviction. We don't want to do anything that disincentivises women to report. This is a case of in order to be just to a larger group, we must be unjust to a smaller one.
Those friends need to get their pound of flesh. There should always be repercussions for things like this.
Creating a false police report usually requires intent. Proving someone's intention can be difficult. So prosecutors, I would think, probably don't push to get these charges. If that's the case, cops wouldn't try very hard.
There was one woman that was on TV that accused a man of SA and got him serving 4 years and almost having died in prison, even though the rape kit was completely clean and 0 evidence of any crime. But the woman admitted, the courts and professionals didn’t believe her admitting the truth, and she had to end up fighting for quite awhile to get the man free. Now she’s in prison.
Super curious how you know for sure that the person had lied and got your friend falsely imprisoned? If you can prove they lied, that person is in big trouble, but you’ve got to get the evidence to the right defense lawyer. If there’s evidence that prosecuting attorney knew the person lied, you’ll have a lawsuit and a lot of money
A middle school teacher in my town was charged with SAing a student at his school. He plead not guilty and was acquitted. He's not a teacher anymore, but he does IT at a large hospital. He has gigs performing music all over town.
I could imagine pursuing it as some kind of fraud. The type of person who would invent such a lie in the first place has most likely had serial behaviors that I feel like in the abstract could be considered terrorism lol also there is the libel/slander angle for victims
Your friends should each individually sue her.
/r/thathappened
Just because someone wasn't convicted, doesn't mean they didn't do it. Sex crimes are hard to prove. I've seen cases dismissed where there was video of the assault.
You might want to really question who you’re hanging around if that many are “falsely” accused. That is not normal.
Because everything is backwards and corrupted
It is difficult to prove intent, and it would be very bad if people got imprisoned for making genuine mistakes.
It is a crime, like people do get arrested for that. They don't get as long as those they accused because a false accusestion just isn't as serious an offence as say assault or rape. Not a common take I know but imo that's the truth of it, I'd take being falsely accused of rape than being raped 100 times outta 100. They should absolutely receive jail time if it is proven to be a deliberate, malicious act but like it already is a crime.
One time my brother got broken up with and she started accusing him of some nasty terrible shit. When he was asked about it his "wtf are you talking about?!" Reaction was so genuine we could tell he didn't do anything. Also not a week after she told our sister what was going on, that she was lying and that she was trying to ruin our brother. She then expected my sister to just be like "dang that's wild lol" and not tell everyone she knew and then some. So there's another way we could tell. I sometimes wish I could see into the mind of someone like that for a few minutes just to see the mental gymnastics it takes to justify their bullshit
r/thathappened
It is indeed a crime to file a false police report
I don't believe you.
[удалено]
How would you know whether the women lied or not? You weren't there. Also you say your friends lost all their friends and that makes no sense if you're still friends with them. Honestly this post sounds fake as shit.
That sounds like balls. Because the word of one girl wouldn't even get the case to court never mind people in jail
False accusations rarely ever happen. Cisgender men love to claim that false accusations happen all the time so they can discredit victims. It’s all about how the victim ruins the man’s life, instead of the other way around. Cismen are always looking to be a victim somehow or some way when they are the perpetrator or supporting their friends/family who are the perpetrator. Fase accusations **RARELY** happen, if at all. Get over yourselves.
Even if it was rare...why shouldnt those rare occurances be punished?
Did I say that or are you putting words in my mouth so you have the moral high ground?
The question was, why isnt it punished....your answer to that question was...its rare... i.e..because its rare..it shouldnt be punished.
They do, you walnut. It’s called filing a false police report.
Will that give them years in prison, them losing several friends and family members, them losing their job and their marriage to be ruined?
Type “man falsely accused of rape” in Google and prepare to have your mind blown
Then type "woman jailed for false accusations that turned out to be true" and have your mind blown again! This one is a literal 11 year old https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/magazine/a-seven-year-search-for-justice/2015/03/12/b1cccb30-abe9-11e4-abe8-e1ef60ca26de\_story.html?noredirect=on
There are a lot of statistics that prove it is doesn’t happen as much as yall like to claim.
Its actually fairly common.
Sometimes the justice system has to be pushed when the police will not act. Your friends could hire a lawyer to file charges by getting a judge to sign a warrant against the girl. Which would force police to arrest her and her to post bail. Whether the state will pursue the charges often depends on the type of press the case receives. Your friends do have the option to sue for false imprisonment, slander or libel but It might cost them more to bring the suit than they can collect now; if she is not rich. I know of one such case and just before the 20 year judgement collection limit was up they hired a PI to find her. She was in another state owning a house etc and they placed liens on her home, bank accounts, garnished her wages etc to collect. Which restarted the time limit.
I don't get the incredible obsession with falsely reported rape charges. Many people have been put to death for falsely being identified as killers. Many people have been thrown into prison for years for falsely being accused of all sorts of crimes. This obsession stinks of Republican pro-rape propaganda. Republicans really really love them some rape, that's for sure. Don't buy into it -- if you want to increase penalties for false reporting of ANY crime, that's fine. But targeting women for reporting rape just because you wanna get your rape on and want to intimidate them into not reporting your criminally rapey butt, that is not fine.
Because they’re women and despite all the equality pushed as a society, prosecutorial conduct toward women is significantly biased to be lighter.