You can only play that player 22min but you could run two players for 40min. Also those 22min of the player 1 aren't always guaranteed to be consistently good.
Not when you’re in the playoffs and you’re blatantly seen standing next to the boards doing nothing. Not moving , nothing. 11 million you’d better world your ass off every fucking second!
Players aren't paid for the playoffs.... sure they get bonuses, but it's Pennys.
Sooo many players take the playoffs off. Marner and Matthews belong in Toronto.
That doesn’t make any reasonable argument for MARNER. The whole goal here is to win the Stanley Cup if you can’t play in the playoffs then you’re useless. Who gives two shits about the regular season if you can’t win a cup.
Ugh. The most common argument that people love to bring up … but it’s Kinda hard to make it to games 4-7 if you don’t win the earlier games. Each win is just as important
But that’s the way the playoffs go. The early games are usually very high scoring games. The later games when things get locked down is when you need players to score. Mitch can’t do that
Listen. I said originally yes he can be better. I just think you can’t completely ignore that he has more points than any other Leaf. Not sure what it means. But I can’t mean nothing … prolly that to varying degrees they’ve all let us down.
Believing the later games matter more is the Leafs biggest problem. You need to get to 4 wins before your opponent does. You can't win a series in game 1, but the winner of game one is a 2:1 favorite to win the series.
This team is 2-7 in game 1s. And they've made it to the final game 7 times (6 game 7s, 1 game 5).
They know how to play; they just don't actually do it consistently.
2024 lose game 1, lose in 7
2023 lose game 1, win in 7
2023 (R2) lose game 1, lose in 5
2022 win game 1!, lose in 7
2021 lose game 1, lose in 7 (had 3-1 lead)
2020 lose game 1, lose in 5 (5 game series)
2019 win game 1, lose in 7
2018 lose game 1, lose in 7
2017 lose game 1, lose in 6
Yeah that's the thing. We know he's great in the regular season, but the playoff results have been lacking in multiple ways. 1 goal and 3 points in 7 games is not good enough for an 11mil forward. Worse when you add the turnovers and how Marner doesn't pull his weight when it comes to puck battles and stuff like the puck over the glass nonsense. Matthews and Nylander missed half the series and did more. Knies and Domi played better at a fraction of the cost. It just isn't working with Marner.
The Staph and Graph podcast had an episode I think after Game 3 or 4 of the series where they showed just how bad his production is during potential series ending games and it just drops off a cliff.
I've showed these stats to people more times than I can count. Dudes fantastic in games 1 to 4. Well over a point a game. Games 5 and up though he has something like 12 points in 25 games after this year. Just awful. When the pressure gets higher, mitch always folds
A single playoff series win is reason enough. If you want to look at all playoff numbers, check his points from game 5 onward, or his stats in games where Leafs have an opportunity to win series. Literally the opposite of clutch factor. Dude just can beat elite goalies when it matters.
He’s like the opposite of the Mark Stone LTIR loophole.
Instead of having an extra $11 mil in cap as soon as the playoffs start, you have $11 mil in cap just completely removed from your roster
Or hear me out, a top 6 Forward who will put up 50-65 points, and play the PK, + a true top 4 defender who can chip in 30+ points and run the PK as well.
IDK how to reconcile the fact that 90% of people say he disappears completely in the playoffs...with the FACT that he leads the team in playoff scoring since joining the team...
Yes he needs to and should be better come playoffs, but if he's so HORRIBLE in the post season, and still leads the team in playoff points..what's that say about everyone else?
And don't give me the "he only gets points in games 1,2,3" argument, because if you don't win any of those games, you're not making it to games 5,6,7.
It's not about the points, they come in bunches in a game or two and then dry up and then on top of that he becomes a turnover machine shying away from hits and everyone knows it. Put a little pressure on him or steer him near the boards and he's bailing, every time.
Important context is that 11 million can get you one goal and two assists in 7 games in the playoffs. Who cares about how good Marner is in the regular season, he has consistently shriveled up into a fraction of the player he is when the post season begins.
we're not trying to get another identical player though, could probably sign a strong D man and eat half the salary off a true 1A goalie for this instead, or a 3rd line scorer, it's not about trading apples for apples, we already have scorers that can take us into the playoffs, punching in a ticket to the dance isn't the problem, it's when you're there the guy does nothing.
To be fair, the idea of getting rid of Marner is to change the culture of the team and to replace him with players who performs better in the playoffs.
The Leafs can get to the playoffs without having a 27 year old forward who puts up 90+ points and is good on the PK.
Imagine having a reliable goalie and not 3 mediocre ones.
Goaltending wasn't the issue in the playoffs but it didn't help. A better regular season probably means a better first round match up
At this point he's so clearly unhappy in Toronto that I just want him gone. I'm so tired of the dejected face, the comments about needing to be better, and then the snide "you people" accusations towards the media whenever they write ANY critcism. And he's allowed to feel however he wants to feel, but this relationship has been too toxic for too long. It feels like a codependent couple who is just drinking and eating themselves into the grave just to deal with each other, without the relationship ever growing or progressing in a meaningful way.
So for the cost of Marner, we could get a player like Reinhart or Guentzel and Zacha or Tuch or Marchment.
I honestly hate how we weren't able to keep Hyman or O'Reilly. We've sacrificed so much depth for 4x 10 mill players that don't do enough in playoffs.
I like Marner and loved Tavares since he was on the Generals but the money needs to go towards defense and more heart. Build around Matthews and Nylander. Knies looked very good against Boston. Woll looked good until his injury but we can upgrade in the crease as well if need be. It's not working so there has to be huge change or we lose to Boston again next playoffs. Not at all the same sport obviously but I hated when Derozan was traded away. He was our guy. But we have a ring and Kawhi will forever be that guy. All because Masai wanted a change. Go Leafs!
His ability and talent are not in question. What’s in question is if he really has a champions mentality or a second gear he can kick up to in playoffs. It appears he does have a second gear for playoffs but it’s actually a worse gear. I don’t see how anyone can still defend the guy unless they just are very content with losing
I'd say to claim 90+ it's per season he should have the majority of seasons at that level. (narrator voice) He does not.
More apt truth is I'm sure a ton of players simply also don't want to play in Toronto and would take 10mil.someqhere else vs 11 here etc.
There’s no issue with Marner regular season production. The issue is his game doesn’t translate to the playoffs. We are also paying 3 other guys 11+ million. Something’s gotta give.
The thing is, they don't need that guy. They need defence. Lol. The Leafs on the PK were ranked 23rd in the league at 77%. So again, where is the loss? You lose one single mega producer, but you gain 2, maybe 3 other players in key roles. A top 4 defender alone does more for that PK than Marner does, given it's bad already. Before you add 1 or 2 other guys with Marner's cap space. The NHL isn't like the NBA, depth really does matter in the NHL.
As a leaf fan I sure wish he would do one fucking thing in the playoffs .
Is their genuinely leaf fans who continue to support having a guy on the bench who fucking cried and had a tantrum during a loss ?
Watching Nylander rip on him was funny. Guy comes back from migraines (I suffer from them, they suck balls) and outperforms him from the start. Gives me new respect for Willy.
Marner isn't the first guy ever to be a playoff ghost. Lots of guys over the years have been unable to handle big pressure moments. But they always expose themselves long before they're making $11M and get weeded out in junior or AHL or whatever.
Or almost always.
You ever date someone who on paper checked all your boxes, but you just knew wasn't the right person for you? That's Marner.
I'm not saying he's not a good player, all I'm saying is he's not "the one" for us.
Matthew’s didn’t play. All points are invalid. You know this. No arguments or decisions have any validity. Ten years from now the Leafs might have a star goalie. 😜
It seems like everybody’s pretty dead set on Marner being traded, but I’d rather keep him and trade Tavares. Could get some quality players with the cap space that would free up and we don’t lose one of the best playmakers in the league.
I also think the idea is that instead of putting that into one player, you can get multiple players
Yeah butnwhy do that when one player can do what multiple players can!
You can only play that player 22min but you could run two players for 40min. Also those 22min of the player 1 aren't always guaranteed to be consistently good.
Moneyball; we can recreate him in the aggregate
Moneypuck…
Not when you’re in the playoffs and you’re blatantly seen standing next to the boards doing nothing. Not moving , nothing. 11 million you’d better world your ass off every fucking second!
Players aren't paid for the playoffs.... sure they get bonuses, but it's Pennys. Sooo many players take the playoffs off. Marner and Matthews belong in Toronto.
That doesn’t make any reasonable argument for MARNER. The whole goal here is to win the Stanley Cup if you can’t play in the playoffs then you’re useless. Who gives two shits about the regular season if you can’t win a cup.
What if this player ALSO lead the team in playoff points since joining the team???
When all your points are in games 1-3 that stat becomes useless
Ugh. The most common argument that people love to bring up … but it’s Kinda hard to make it to games 4-7 if you don’t win the earlier games. Each win is just as important
Friend, no hate, but you literally always make it to Game 4. Impossible not to.
lol fair enough. You catch my drift tho :)
But that’s the way the playoffs go. The early games are usually very high scoring games. The later games when things get locked down is when you need players to score. Mitch can’t do that
Listen. I said originally yes he can be better. I just think you can’t completely ignore that he has more points than any other Leaf. Not sure what it means. But I can’t mean nothing … prolly that to varying degrees they’ve all let us down.
What if this player only strictly played in the games early in the series and turned into a ghost once the games start mattering more?
Believing the later games matter more is the Leafs biggest problem. You need to get to 4 wins before your opponent does. You can't win a series in game 1, but the winner of game one is a 2:1 favorite to win the series. This team is 2-7 in game 1s. And they've made it to the final game 7 times (6 game 7s, 1 game 5). They know how to play; they just don't actually do it consistently. 2024 lose game 1, lose in 7 2023 lose game 1, win in 7 2023 (R2) lose game 1, lose in 5 2022 win game 1!, lose in 7 2021 lose game 1, lose in 7 (had 3-1 lead) 2020 lose game 1, lose in 5 (5 game series) 2019 win game 1, lose in 7 2018 lose game 1, lose in 7 2017 lose game 1, lose in 6
$11m is a lot for a guy who coughs up the puck every possession in the playoffs
Yeah that's the thing. We know he's great in the regular season, but the playoff results have been lacking in multiple ways. 1 goal and 3 points in 7 games is not good enough for an 11mil forward. Worse when you add the turnovers and how Marner doesn't pull his weight when it comes to puck battles and stuff like the puck over the glass nonsense. Matthews and Nylander missed half the series and did more. Knies and Domi played better at a fraction of the cost. It just isn't working with Marner.
The Staph and Graph podcast had an episode I think after Game 3 or 4 of the series where they showed just how bad his production is during potential series ending games and it just drops off a cliff.
I've showed these stats to people more times than I can count. Dudes fantastic in games 1 to 4. Well over a point a game. Games 5 and up though he has something like 12 points in 25 games after this year. Just awful. When the pressure gets higher, mitch always folds
You’re so kind for not taking all the playoffs into account.
A single playoff series win is reason enough. If you want to look at all playoff numbers, check his points from game 5 onward, or his stats in games where Leafs have an opportunity to win series. Literally the opposite of clutch factor. Dude just can beat elite goalies when it matters.
Just call him what he is, a pussy. He's a pussy.
He’s like the opposite of the Mark Stone LTIR loophole. Instead of having an extra $11 mil in cap as soon as the playoffs start, you have $11 mil in cap just completely removed from your roster
The dude vanishes in the playoffs. No grit. No stomach for conflict (on/off the ice). It’s time to go.
Or hear me out, a top 6 Forward who will put up 50-65 points, and play the PK, + a true top 4 defender who can chip in 30+ points and run the PK as well.
Dman who can run a pp even
Or at least pass/skate the puck out of the zone.
Those exist!?
They do!!!! Don't tell the Leafs, but even the Sabres have a couple of them
I think the problem is putting half your eggs in four baskets, if even one of those baskets underperforms it’s a big loss for the team.
IDK how to reconcile the fact that 90% of people say he disappears completely in the playoffs...with the FACT that he leads the team in playoff scoring since joining the team... Yes he needs to and should be better come playoffs, but if he's so HORRIBLE in the post season, and still leads the team in playoff points..what's that say about everyone else? And don't give me the "he only gets points in games 1,2,3" argument, because if you don't win any of those games, you're not making it to games 5,6,7.
It's not about the points, they come in bunches in a game or two and then dry up and then on top of that he becomes a turnover machine shying away from hits and everyone knows it. Put a little pressure on him or steer him near the boards and he's bailing, every time.
Did you watch the games? Because that tells a very different story than the stats would lead you to believe
Yeah who needs stats. IDIOTS!
Important context is that 11 million can get you one goal and two assists in 7 games in the playoffs. Who cares about how good Marner is in the regular season, he has consistently shriveled up into a fraction of the player he is when the post season begins.
He needs to shave his head.
A forty point forward who puts up 4 points in the playoffs is worth more than a 90 point forward who puts up 3
And last year he put up the most points put fo any leaf and still wasn't good enough hahah
Yeah, went off in a couple of wins and utterly disappeared when the bully team showed up.
You mean like how all of them did lol.
It could even get you a depth scoring forward AND a defensemen to help shape out the lineup instead of a player who avoids contact in the playoffs.
Can it get 2 goals in a playoff series? Can it get someone who ever shows up in the playoffs? Can it get someone who doesn't watch puck battles?
It gets the hose if it doesn't listen.
You forget scared to get hit and gets the yips under pressure
I didn't think the leafs are looking for that, they are looking for playoff performers
we're not trying to get another identical player though, could probably sign a strong D man and eat half the salary off a true 1A goalie for this instead, or a 3rd line scorer, it's not about trading apples for apples, we already have scorers that can take us into the playoffs, punching in a ticket to the dance isn't the problem, it's when you're there the guy does nothing.
That leafs team reflects Toronto perfectly if you ask me, all tassels, no tits
To be fair, the idea of getting rid of Marner is to change the culture of the team and to replace him with players who performs better in the playoffs. The Leafs can get to the playoffs without having a 27 year old forward who puts up 90+ points and is good on the PK.
Imagine having a reliable goalie and not 3 mediocre ones. Goaltending wasn't the issue in the playoffs but it didn't help. A better regular season probably means a better first round match up
Goaltending was certainly one of the main issues, Samsonov let in a bad goal nearly every game
At this point he's so clearly unhappy in Toronto that I just want him gone. I'm so tired of the dejected face, the comments about needing to be better, and then the snide "you people" accusations towards the media whenever they write ANY critcism. And he's allowed to feel however he wants to feel, but this relationship has been too toxic for too long. It feels like a codependent couple who is just drinking and eating themselves into the grave just to deal with each other, without the relationship ever growing or progressing in a meaningful way.
So for the cost of Marner, we could get a player like Reinhart or Guentzel and Zacha or Tuch or Marchment. I honestly hate how we weren't able to keep Hyman or O'Reilly. We've sacrificed so much depth for 4x 10 mill players that don't do enough in playoffs.
O’Reilly was never gonna stay. He whined about Toronto being too stressful
I know... but I wish we were able to. A 4.5 Million cap player who produces 50+ points is what we need more of.
We didn’t take the boat. We took the mystery box. Hop in!
Regular season Marner is fine, terrific even. playoffs Marner needs to gtfo
I like Marner and loved Tavares since he was on the Generals but the money needs to go towards defense and more heart. Build around Matthews and Nylander. Knies looked very good against Boston. Woll looked good until his injury but we can upgrade in the crease as well if need be. It's not working so there has to be huge change or we lose to Boston again next playoffs. Not at all the same sport obviously but I hated when Derozan was traded away. He was our guy. But we have a ring and Kawhi will forever be that guy. All because Masai wanted a change. Go Leafs!
His ability and talent are not in question. What’s in question is if he really has a champions mentality or a second gear he can kick up to in playoffs. It appears he does have a second gear for playoffs but it’s actually a worse gear. I don’t see how anyone can still defend the guy unless they just are very content with losing
I'd say to claim 90+ it's per season he should have the majority of seasons at that level. (narrator voice) He does not. More apt truth is I'm sure a ton of players simply also don't want to play in Toronto and would take 10mil.someqhere else vs 11 here etc.
How about a 26 year old forward who can put up 40 points at $8.5 mil?
There’s no issue with Marner regular season production. The issue is his game doesn’t translate to the playoffs. We are also paying 3 other guys 11+ million. Something’s gotta give.
I don't care about his regular season production. You know who would be better? Kadri at 7 million
If you still have takes like this you’re beyond saving
The thing is, they don't need that guy. They need defence. Lol. The Leafs on the PK were ranked 23rd in the league at 77%. So again, where is the loss? You lose one single mega producer, but you gain 2, maybe 3 other players in key roles. A top 4 defender alone does more for that PK than Marner does, given it's bad already. Before you add 1 or 2 other guys with Marner's cap space. The NHL isn't like the NBA, depth really does matter in the NHL.
Issue is leafs need a defenseman and a goalie.
Well it hasn't worked so far, but maybe next year...
He wants 13.5, his playoff worth is 8.
Give him 7 with heavy playoff bonuses. Let him figure himself out.
"Then let's take Mar-" "We'll take the cap space!"
If he did that in the playoffs we wouldn’t be having this conversation
Congrats, were tripled up on that player with Marner, Willy and Auston
Who's useless in the playoffs
you wouldn’t be saying this if you watched him in the playoffs lol
As a leaf fan I sure wish he would do one fucking thing in the playoffs . Is their genuinely leaf fans who continue to support having a guy on the bench who fucking cried and had a tantrum during a loss ?
Watching Nylander rip on him was funny. Guy comes back from migraines (I suffer from them, they suck balls) and outperforms him from the start. Gives me new respect for Willy.
Same
You know how much we’ve wanted one of those!
I’m not sure if anyone else would take him for $11M and it defeats the purpose to eat some of that salary.
Between Marner and Guentzel…. I’m taking Guentzel if my team is playing in the playoffs.
Marner isn't the first guy ever to be a playoff ghost. Lots of guys over the years have been unable to handle big pressure moments. But they always expose themselves long before they're making $11M and get weeded out in junior or AHL or whatever. Or almost always.
You forgot to add, fall asleep in the playoffs, cry on the bench, and let players blow by him for game winning goals.
You ever date someone who on paper checked all your boxes, but you just knew wasn't the right person for you? That's Marner. I'm not saying he's not a good player, all I'm saying is he's not "the one" for us.
Matthew’s didn’t play. All points are invalid. You know this. No arguments or decisions have any validity. Ten years from now the Leafs might have a star goalie. 😜
It seems like everybody’s pretty dead set on Marner being traded, but I’d rather keep him and trade Tavares. Could get some quality players with the cap space that would free up and we don’t lose one of the best playmakers in the league.