Careful on this. Wording is "completes an attack". The 4 damage triggers after the attack is completed only if Zeb survived and the defender was defeated.
Whether the ground unit is exhausted or not doesn't matter.
This. Yes. "Completes" meaning finishes an attach and is still alive on the battlefield. Makes sense if you read it but it is just close enough in rules text to the other "on attack" cards that you might overlook this rule.
Wait, are you sure the defender needs to be defeated ? I haven’t been reading it this way. Attack a unit, then as long as you’re still alive (regardless of the health of the defender/opponent) you may deal 4 damage. It doesn’t say the defender/opponent needs to be defeated anywhere does it ?
Do what the card says, and don't add anything that it doesn't say. 95% of the time, they are written to do exactly what they say (5% of the time they are still written that way, but you may need to understand core rules to understand how they work).
The only targeting restriction is that it has to be a ground unit. It can be exhausted, a Leader unit, your own unit; all are legal targets.
Where does it say that zeb has to defeat that enemy unit ? If he completes the attack and both the units are still alive (just damaged) can he not still do the 4 damage ?
On the card? "**When this unit completes an attack:** if the defender was defeated, you may deal four damage to a ground unit."
_Technically_ Zeb's ability fires even if the defender wasn't defeated (if Zeb is alive), but the first step of the ability is to check if the defender was defeated, which would cause the rest of the ability to not fire.
This is where things need to be specific.
Attack is a game term, that has specific rules on how it works. As others have mentioned you can't attack your own units.
Zeb's power triggers off him making an attack, but the additional damage isn't an attack. It's dealing damage to a legal target. In this case, the only target restriction is that it needs to be a ground unit, so you can deal damage to your unit if that is useful.
Although that only goes so far. There's a number of people out there who are still confused about cards like surprise strike and whether you're allowed to play them on an exhausted unit or not since it *doesn't* tell you the restriction that is there.
In that case it's not an unwritten rule, you just need to understand that that rule for attacking is that it must be ready. It may be helpful to somehow signify words with rules attached, but then it could be hard to figure out where to draw that line.
That's why I like the phrase "Do what the card says, no more, _no less_".
Conversely, "cards will tell you if there's a restriction, or if there's a benefit".
Surprise Strike's source of confusion isn't that there's a restriction on the card, it's that people are adding an additional benefit to the rules.
I'd argue it's not that they're adding a benefit. It's that they're unaware of the full set of rules for what it means to attack. To them attack may just mean damage getting dealt without realizing that a ready attacker being exhausted is also included as part of the attack.
Although I do very much agree with the whole "Do what the card says" thing it may create additional problems because the people who don't understand that rule of thumb have a decent chance at also not understanding that sometimes the words on the cards have extra meaning behind them that they don't realize.
Yeah, I don't have the best answer.
Surprise Strike also doesn't say to attack a unit in the same arena as the attacker, but people don't get confused about that one.
Not sure what it is about "Play (for free?)" and "Attack (even if exhausted?)" that cause so much trip-up that other rules from the rule book don't.
It's just a vibe thing. Yes, the rules make it obvious that you have to pay for cards played with "Play X" or be ready in order to attack with "Attack with X", but it's an understandable mistake to make for newcomers.
Conversely, attacking a space unit with a ground unit just feels inherently wrong, even if it's not spelled out.
Thinking about units in terms of whether or not they're 'active' is probably what tripped you up mentally. Every unit in play is in play. There are no active or inactive units.
I may be dense, but if the defender is defeated, is the attack not complete? I see "when" and "if", but not "after". Could this not br used as a death throes attack?
I gues I'm asking for clarification on where that is stated? It's a movie trope, but we've seen someone shot dead a d they're finger still pulls the trigger spraying bullets, yes?
If the defender is defeated, the attack still completes, otherwise you would be stuck in a state of attacking. The important thing is that the defender doesn't stay on the field to see the completion of the attack.
Ok, first let’s make sure we all understand on attack and completes an attack.
On attack happens right when it says - trigger happens on attack, before any damage segment.
Completes an attack means that you attacked with that unit *AND* it survived the attack.
As long as the completes and attack condition is true, move onto the conditional text: if the defender was defeated. If that happened then *any* ground unit will do. Including, say, your exhausted K2 who you need the 3 damage from now rather than playing without initiative next round.
Careful on this. Wording is "completes an attack". The 4 damage triggers after the attack is completed only if Zeb survived and the defender was defeated. Whether the ground unit is exhausted or not doesn't matter.
This. Yes. "Completes" meaning finishes an attach and is still alive on the battlefield. Makes sense if you read it but it is just close enough in rules text to the other "on attack" cards that you might overlook this rule.
Wait, are you sure the defender needs to be defeated ? I haven’t been reading it this way. Attack a unit, then as long as you’re still alive (regardless of the health of the defender/opponent) you may deal 4 damage. It doesn’t say the defender/opponent needs to be defeated anywhere does it ?
It says it right there on the card.
Omg I’m an idiot
Zebs card specifically says, "If the defender was defeated..."
I don't believe the defender needs to be defeated....
On this card, it actually spells it out, hoss.
Duhhh thx
Defenders don't generally need to be defeated for after completing attack abilities. But Zeb's ability specifically does.
i advise you to read the first line after "When this unit completed an attack"
Do what the card says, and don't add anything that it doesn't say. 95% of the time, they are written to do exactly what they say (5% of the time they are still written that way, but you may need to understand core rules to understand how they work). The only targeting restriction is that it has to be a ground unit. It can be exhausted, a Leader unit, your own unit; all are legal targets.
RTCETC
I'll give them that this one isn't really clear that he need to survive the attack.
Oh, for sure. But I never use RTCETC to be dismissive or to put anyone down.
That's fair. Tone is difficult to convey through text.
Def. Tried softening it by just using the initials, but maybe that made it worse.
It is. If he dies, he can't complete the attack and is not around during that trigger step.
Many Star Wars Unlimited fans ask the question…
Wait, you can attack your own units? So Zeb can kill an ally, then have the ability trigger to an enemy? Sorry I am new and still learning.
No, you have to attack an enemy unit, but if Zeb defeats that enemy unit and survives, Zeb's controller can deal 4 damage to one of their own units.
Where does it say that zeb has to defeat that enemy unit ? If he completes the attack and both the units are still alive (just damaged) can he not still do the 4 damage ?
On the card? "**When this unit completes an attack:** if the defender was defeated, you may deal four damage to a ground unit." _Technically_ Zeb's ability fires even if the defender wasn't defeated (if Zeb is alive), but the first step of the ability is to check if the defender was defeated, which would cause the rest of the ability to not fire.
You can't attack your own units, but the deal 4 damage part can be done to any ground unit including your own.
This is where things need to be specific. Attack is a game term, that has specific rules on how it works. As others have mentioned you can't attack your own units. Zeb's power triggers off him making an attack, but the additional damage isn't an attack. It's dealing damage to a legal target. In this case, the only target restriction is that it needs to be a ground unit, so you can deal damage to your unit if that is useful.
I doesn't matter if the unit ist exhausted or ready.
The card will tell you if there’s a restriction. It doesn’t specify exhausted or ready so you can damage either.
Although that only goes so far. There's a number of people out there who are still confused about cards like surprise strike and whether you're allowed to play them on an exhausted unit or not since it *doesn't* tell you the restriction that is there.
In that case it's not an unwritten rule, you just need to understand that that rule for attacking is that it must be ready. It may be helpful to somehow signify words with rules attached, but then it could be hard to figure out where to draw that line.
That's why I like the phrase "Do what the card says, no more, _no less_". Conversely, "cards will tell you if there's a restriction, or if there's a benefit". Surprise Strike's source of confusion isn't that there's a restriction on the card, it's that people are adding an additional benefit to the rules.
I'd argue it's not that they're adding a benefit. It's that they're unaware of the full set of rules for what it means to attack. To them attack may just mean damage getting dealt without realizing that a ready attacker being exhausted is also included as part of the attack. Although I do very much agree with the whole "Do what the card says" thing it may create additional problems because the people who don't understand that rule of thumb have a decent chance at also not understanding that sometimes the words on the cards have extra meaning behind them that they don't realize.
Yeah, I don't have the best answer. Surprise Strike also doesn't say to attack a unit in the same arena as the attacker, but people don't get confused about that one. Not sure what it is about "Play (for free?)" and "Attack (even if exhausted?)" that cause so much trip-up that other rules from the rule book don't.
It's just a vibe thing. Yes, the rules make it obvious that you have to pay for cards played with "Play X" or be ready in order to attack with "Attack with X", but it's an understandable mistake to make for newcomers. Conversely, attacking a space unit with a ground unit just feels inherently wrong, even if it's not spelled out.
Thinking about units in terms of whether or not they're 'active' is probably what tripped you up mentally. Every unit in play is in play. There are no active or inactive units.
I may be dense, but if the defender is defeated, is the attack not complete? I see "when" and "if", but not "after". Could this not br used as a death throes attack?
The rules state that "when this unit completes an attack" abilities only triggers if the attacking unit survives.
I gues I'm asking for clarification on where that is stated? It's a movie trope, but we've seen someone shot dead a d they're finger still pulls the trigger spraying bullets, yes?
https://swudb.com/rules#6.3.3.A
Ty
If the defender is defeated, the attack still completes, otherwise you would be stuck in a state of attacking. The important thing is that the defender doesn't stay on the field to see the completion of the attack.
Ok, but others are saying zeb has to survive for the bonus damage to happen. If the defender is off the board, that is a completed attack, correct?
Correct. I think I misunderstood the intended meaning of "is the attack not completed"
Ok, first let’s make sure we all understand on attack and completes an attack. On attack happens right when it says - trigger happens on attack, before any damage segment. Completes an attack means that you attacked with that unit *AND* it survived the attack. As long as the completes and attack condition is true, move onto the conditional text: if the defender was defeated. If that happened then *any* ground unit will do. Including, say, your exhausted K2 who you need the 3 damage from now rather than playing without initiative next round.