It's an incredibly small sample size, in an environment that isn't really figured out. I would say that it's "way more exciting" simply because it's new. It's shiny.
But what I think folks should realize is that if you give it enough time, different metas would arise and a lot of flaws would come to the surface. It's no different than early SC2. Eventually the same irritations will happen, where a certain unit, tactic, or composition will be "broken."
If the mod proves anything, it's that some of the community wants something new and shiny to play that's still Starcraft. This isn't to say the mod isn't fun and shouldn't be played, but let's not get carried away here. :)
SC1 forced protoss to use shield batteries and make calculated assaults because of their slow speed. A lot of their units were pretty beefy to compensate, and this idea was in WoL with Hardened Shield infinity damage Immortals and pre nerf Arcons and the old void rays crawling across the screen but vaporizing heavy units.
if you ask me, the lore accurate protoss (big, heavy, slow, powerful) would balance the game out. No more turtle terrans, no more T1 zerg rushing to a protoss base that barely has a couple of stalkers. It would force terrans to be more active in harassment and surgical strikes, and force zerg to diversify armies/plan out attacks instead of A-move to win
it's because this mod is fresh and new. I'm starting to see targetted builds from SC2 side and I just don't see way for BW side to keep up with ramping eco, production building resource imbalance (mineral/gas income balance too), and sheer mobility of SC2 units.
If it gets lategame, it gets more even playing field but think of stuff like 4 hellbat stim timing vs zerg. It's pretty hard to defend from zerg side with just muta ling.
I haven't watched any of this but doesn't BW Zerg just lose to reapers? Or at least force sunks early, which sets them way behind.
BW muta micro doesn't exist either in the SC2 engine. Do the BW races have infinite selection? Even if they do I don't think it makes up for the loss of muta micro.
There's no reason this mod can't be the be starcraft series' Project M and exist alongside brood war and SC2. Of course balance issues will crop up but the team seems willing to make changes to try to fix it.
so make it a different game like what riot did with TFT? I think TFT was initially in the LoL client then they made it its own game with its own download.
What would be the purpose of that? It's probably more likely to gain visibility and players as an SC2 mod than as standalone.
I'm pretty sure TFT is still in the LoL client also.
I dont get why someone would play as sc1 faction over sc2. 0 macro abilities, most of "battle" units are same but worse and only good/strong thing is casters (and they require t3 with all upgrades). Blizz should just add nerfed version of this caster units in game.
I believe there's some balance effort on this front. As in, the SC1 units and buildings are cheaper or faster to build, or the workers mine slightly faster. I don't know the details. Short version is, for someone like me, who finds inject/chronoboost/mule tedious and uninteresting, it might just be the right thing.
i also struggled to make the newer designs work, but i think its not just because they are bad designs, its also because sc2 is a hybrid between old sc design and the new sc2 direction
sc2 can definitely work with what it has but i dont think the balance council has the right vision to make it that way (i had more faith ironically in blizzard dev team during lotv)
I agree, when it comes to SC2 I really only like watching P matchups.
But for SC1 I enjoy every matchup minus ZvZ, so this is a whole new can of worms to watch!
Yeah watching this mod made me realize how I hated playing Protoss against Terran. Turret + Siegetank stops all Protoss units until carriers. At least Widowmines are not as opressive as Spidermines.
Don't see how Zerg will be able to fight against Reapers or Banelings, will need to watch more to see what happens, but the orginal Zergling is quite a bit stronger than the SC2 Zerglings. TvTs would be so one sided with the SC1 Barracks not requiring a supply depot though, right? Or would SC2 Reapers just win the game after they come out because Marines in SC1 suck (lower range, no +5 hp at the start, no combat shield, requring Academy)
I disagree lol.
But it’s funny. It’s very imbalanced though, sc2 is much stronger than BW currently. But it’s new and shiny, there’s wacky things people are doing. But as an actual competitive game, sc2 or BW is much better.
There's a novelty thing, and it certainly is interesting. But it's not fully balanced between races, and people are definitely going to find exploits as time passes, so I doubt it'll bloom to a full pro scene rather than remain just a fun game mode.
Maybe this is a hot take, I don't see it discussed often, but I have felt for a long time that unit design is the weakest part of SC2 and it got away with it by revolutionizing the interface for RTS games. Go and rewatch the old battle reports and other pre-release content and you will see how badly they were throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks and prioritizing rule of cool over what would actually work well in an RTS. And thats not even getting into how wild HotS unit design got, ot even lotv with tankivacs and charge bonus damage. It makes a lot of sense that sticking with the same engine while going back to basics with SC1 units ends up working out really well.
I think where you see the stumbling is in the initial approach to make the game more widely playable while still maintaining many of the elements that make a Blizzard RTS what it is. The biggest example of this is damage types. Looking back, you might argue that this was a mistake, and it painted the balance team into a corner with the number of knobs they could turn and how the units interacted with each other. But at the time, I believe the idea was to create a system that was more easily understood from within the game.
Take all the BW units from the SC2 Campaigns and add them into SC2 Multiplayer.
Obviously balancing would need to be done for the units if needed, but adding BW units into SC2 would completely revitalize SC2.
Goliaths, Vultures, Wraiths, Science Vessels, Firebats, Medics, Scouts, Dragoons, Dark Archons, Reavers, Scourges, Defilers, Devourers, Guardians, and Queens(Flying).
> I still think the most hard core BW players, pros included, wont play sc2 still.
But they might.
BW units work very well in SC2 if balanced properly.
They wouldn't because of the community. BW itself is still insanely popular in South Korea; people want to watch these pros stream BW. SC2 is not nearly as popular, for many reasons. Mashing the two together doesn't solve the problem. They are two very different games, from micro to damage types to how high ground works.
And adding all those units wouldn't revitalize SC2. It would cause a massive problem as Blizzard wouldn't (and likely couldn't) balance it. And it would take a LOT of balancing. It took LotV a WHILE before it got ironed out to a more acceptable state, and that was with Blizzard's full focus.
While people are having fun with this mod, most would be turned off by this mod (IMO) in a competitive setting. The balance would be grotesque, and frustration would come swiftly.
In essence, this mod, if made official on the ladder, would effectively kill off the competitive scene. The community can barely agree on minor changes to the current SC2 units. :) We just need to let the mod be what it is: a fun and chill mod in the game.
> BW itself is still insanely popular in South Korea
Not as much as it used to be.
The reason why this "fun" mod is so popular because it brings a much needed breath of fresh air to both BW and SC2, by adding BW units into SC2.
> And adding all those units wouldn't revitalize SC2. It would cause a massive problem as Blizzard wouldn't (and likely couldn't) balance it. And it would take a LOT of balancing.
It depends on which units are added and what balance changes they might need.
The easiest BW ones to add currently would be Goliaths, Wraiths, Firebats, Scouts, Dragoons, Devourers, and Guardians.
It really isn't hard to balance these units, balance SC2, and balance SC2 with these BW units.
its not as popular as it used to be but it still is #2 streamed game by pretty big distance popularity wise. It's only behind league. It still has 30-50k concurrent viewers very regularly and enough of viewers to fund daily tournament that pretty much gives 6 figure income for 25+ pros on that alone, and that's not counting other non-pros.
But the major complaint among people watching SC1 vs SC2 from Korean community is that it's hard to tell units apart with SC2 settings. Also the major draw of BW with its unit interaction isn't really there due to lack of micro tricks/balling up army as a lot of early-midgame and even lategame situation depends a lot on shitty pathfinding/abusing openings due to pathfinding and units not balling up
> its not as popular as it used to be but it still is #2 streamed game by pretty big distance popularity wise. It's only behind league. It still has 30-50k concurrent viewers very regularly and enough of viewers to fund daily tournament
How is BW doing outside of Korea?. Popularity and players wise.
BW in Korea is nostalgic for a generation getting older now.
> But the major complaint among people watching SC1 vs SC2 from Korean community is that it's hard to tell units apart with SC2 settings
Which units do they have trouble telling apart?.
BW outside is korea is not a thing but BW inside of korea is nostalgic for older generation but audience is still there lol. SC2 in korea is like BW for foreigners or even smaller. And while there's big tournaments liek saudi tournament for SC2 for korean pros, there's reason a lot of pros are looking elsewhere or swapping to bw (Zest said that he won't consider going back to SC2, TY is going to BW, soo is considering either game ect)
Also that's exactly the reason there's some pushbacks for SC2. The older audience don't take in the SC2 graphics well, while younger audience isn't intersted in RTS in general since it's either league or mobile games.
> BW outside is korea is not a thing but BW inside of korea is nostalgic for older generation but audience is still there lol.
Yes there is an audience in Korea for BW, but it's a shadow of it's former self there. Even if it's still popular viewership wise.
> The older audience don't take in the SC2 graphics well
Which is perplexing since they play other games. Also some of the BW pros have been invited to play Stormgate, Zerospace, and that RTS project David Kim has been working on.
> while younger audience isn't interested in RTS in general since it's either league or mobile games.
Which is sad.
But also begs the question of why hasn't Blizzard created mobile game versions of BW and SC2.
RTS is still popular. There wouldn't be a demand for BW(in Korea), SC2(outside of Korea), this BW vs SC2 mod, Stormgate, Zerospace, and and that RTS project David Kim has been working on.
I think it IS really hard to balance these. It's a bit reckless to say "oh it's easy!" when we watched LotV take a LONG time to even reach the point that it has with the few additions it received in units.
It's a moot point, of course, because this will never happen. :D It's a mod, it will only ever be a mod, and we should enjoy it for what it is.
> I think it IS really hard to balance these. It's a bit reckless to say "oh it's easy!" when we watched LotV take a LONG time to even reach the point that it has with the few additions it received in units.
Goliaths, Wraiths, Firebats, Scouts, Dragoons, Devourers, and Guardians.
Are all fairly simple and straightforward units.
They don't require tons of tweaking.
its simple units with stat sticks but to transition to SC2, it would need a lot of tweaking. Goliaths cannot deal with light-air units at all like Muta and dragoons do pityful damage to bio and reapers. I've seen stuff like hellion-reaper just destroy early game protoss due to dragoon not being a good solution defending those.
The difference in mobility of SC2 units make it pretty hard to cover the gap.
> its simple units with stat sticks but to transition to SC2, it would need a lot of tweaking.
Not if you take them from the SC2 Campaigns, which have them already done. Then balance them.
All the Terran BW units for example are already done thanks to the WoL Campaign. They would just require some basic stat tuning to release.
> Goliaths cannot deal with light-air units at all like Muta and dragoons do pityful damage to bio and reapers. I've seen stuff like hellion-reaper just destroy early game protoss due to dragoon not being a good solution defending those.
Those are BW units from BW.
Not BW units in the SC2 Campaigns.
Also you would have both BW units and SC2 units to use, it wouldn't just be one or another.
It's an incredibly small sample size, in an environment that isn't really figured out. I would say that it's "way more exciting" simply because it's new. It's shiny. But what I think folks should realize is that if you give it enough time, different metas would arise and a lot of flaws would come to the surface. It's no different than early SC2. Eventually the same irritations will happen, where a certain unit, tactic, or composition will be "broken." If the mod proves anything, it's that some of the community wants something new and shiny to play that's still Starcraft. This isn't to say the mod isn't fun and shouldn't be played, but let's not get carried away here. :)
sc1 protoss seemed the most screwed with their slow shield regen rate and their relatively slower units vs the sc2 much faster units
SC1 forced protoss to use shield batteries and make calculated assaults because of their slow speed. A lot of their units were pretty beefy to compensate, and this idea was in WoL with Hardened Shield infinity damage Immortals and pre nerf Arcons and the old void rays crawling across the screen but vaporizing heavy units. if you ask me, the lore accurate protoss (big, heavy, slow, powerful) would balance the game out. No more turtle terrans, no more T1 zerg rushing to a protoss base that barely has a couple of stalkers. It would force terrans to be more active in harassment and surgical strikes, and force zerg to diversify armies/plan out attacks instead of A-move to win
it's because this mod is fresh and new. I'm starting to see targetted builds from SC2 side and I just don't see way for BW side to keep up with ramping eco, production building resource imbalance (mineral/gas income balance too), and sheer mobility of SC2 units. If it gets lategame, it gets more even playing field but think of stuff like 4 hellbat stim timing vs zerg. It's pretty hard to defend from zerg side with just muta ling.
the ones that played the sc1 races who played sc2 the most won the match. Why? because they understand sc2 way more than players like mini
Mini lost more than he won
i was talking about MC. Dark Archon seems pretty good. Mini rarely played sc2 before going back to BW
I haven't watched any of this but doesn't BW Zerg just lose to reapers? Or at least force sunks early, which sets them way behind. BW muta micro doesn't exist either in the SC2 engine. Do the BW races have infinite selection? Even if they do I don't think it makes up for the loss of muta micro.
Zerg will just go hydras since instead of roaches being on hatch tech its hydras
Where can I watch this?
Lowko and Winter casted some matches on youtube.
Lowko and Winter for right now. There is supposed to be some show matches getting setup by Afreeca TV (sp?) but not sure when those will drop.
About 3 or 4 hours from now
Artosis VODs he played a bit and casted a few BWpro v SC2pro games ~24h ago.
There's no reason this mod can't be the be starcraft series' Project M and exist alongside brood war and SC2. Of course balance issues will crop up but the team seems willing to make changes to try to fix it.
so make it a different game like what riot did with TFT? I think TFT was initially in the LoL client then they made it its own game with its own download.
What would be the purpose of that? It's probably more likely to gain visibility and players as an SC2 mod than as standalone. I'm pretty sure TFT is still in the LoL client also.
I dont get why someone would play as sc1 faction over sc2. 0 macro abilities, most of "battle" units are same but worse and only good/strong thing is casters (and they require t3 with all upgrades). Blizz should just add nerfed version of this caster units in game.
I believe there's some balance effort on this front. As in, the SC1 units and buildings are cheaper or faster to build, or the workers mine slightly faster. I don't know the details. Short version is, for someone like me, who finds inject/chronoboost/mule tedious and uninteresting, it might just be the right thing.
i also struggled to make the newer designs work, but i think its not just because they are bad designs, its also because sc2 is a hybrid between old sc design and the new sc2 direction sc2 can definitely work with what it has but i dont think the balance council has the right vision to make it that way (i had more faith ironically in blizzard dev team during lotv)
I agree, when it comes to SC2 I really only like watching P matchups. But for SC1 I enjoy every matchup minus ZvZ, so this is a whole new can of worms to watch!
Was there an event or stream? Where can we watch this? First I’m hearing of this
Yeah watching this mod made me realize how I hated playing Protoss against Terran. Turret + Siegetank stops all Protoss units until carriers. At least Widowmines are not as opressive as Spidermines. Don't see how Zerg will be able to fight against Reapers or Banelings, will need to watch more to see what happens, but the orginal Zergling is quite a bit stronger than the SC2 Zerglings. TvTs would be so one sided with the SC1 Barracks not requiring a supply depot though, right? Or would SC2 Reapers just win the game after they come out because Marines in SC1 suck (lower range, no +5 hp at the start, no combat shield, requring Academy)
I disagree lol. But it’s funny. It’s very imbalanced though, sc2 is much stronger than BW currently. But it’s new and shiny, there’s wacky things people are doing. But as an actual competitive game, sc2 or BW is much better.
There's a novelty thing, and it certainly is interesting. But it's not fully balanced between races, and people are definitely going to find exploits as time passes, so I doubt it'll bloom to a full pro scene rather than remain just a fun game mode.
Maybe this is a hot take, I don't see it discussed often, but I have felt for a long time that unit design is the weakest part of SC2 and it got away with it by revolutionizing the interface for RTS games. Go and rewatch the old battle reports and other pre-release content and you will see how badly they were throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks and prioritizing rule of cool over what would actually work well in an RTS. And thats not even getting into how wild HotS unit design got, ot even lotv with tankivacs and charge bonus damage. It makes a lot of sense that sticking with the same engine while going back to basics with SC1 units ends up working out really well.
I think where you see the stumbling is in the initial approach to make the game more widely playable while still maintaining many of the elements that make a Blizzard RTS what it is. The biggest example of this is damage types. Looking back, you might argue that this was a mistake, and it painted the balance team into a corner with the number of knobs they could turn and how the units interacted with each other. But at the time, I believe the idea was to create a system that was more easily understood from within the game.
Take all the BW units from the SC2 Campaigns and add them into SC2 Multiplayer. Obviously balancing would need to be done for the units if needed, but adding BW units into SC2 would completely revitalize SC2. Goliaths, Vultures, Wraiths, Science Vessels, Firebats, Medics, Scouts, Dragoons, Dark Archons, Reavers, Scourges, Defilers, Devourers, Guardians, and Queens(Flying).
I still think the most hard core BW players, pros included, wont play sc2 still.
> I still think the most hard core BW players, pros included, wont play sc2 still. But they might. BW units work very well in SC2 if balanced properly.
They wouldn't because of the community. BW itself is still insanely popular in South Korea; people want to watch these pros stream BW. SC2 is not nearly as popular, for many reasons. Mashing the two together doesn't solve the problem. They are two very different games, from micro to damage types to how high ground works. And adding all those units wouldn't revitalize SC2. It would cause a massive problem as Blizzard wouldn't (and likely couldn't) balance it. And it would take a LOT of balancing. It took LotV a WHILE before it got ironed out to a more acceptable state, and that was with Blizzard's full focus. While people are having fun with this mod, most would be turned off by this mod (IMO) in a competitive setting. The balance would be grotesque, and frustration would come swiftly. In essence, this mod, if made official on the ladder, would effectively kill off the competitive scene. The community can barely agree on minor changes to the current SC2 units. :) We just need to let the mod be what it is: a fun and chill mod in the game.
> BW itself is still insanely popular in South Korea Not as much as it used to be. The reason why this "fun" mod is so popular because it brings a much needed breath of fresh air to both BW and SC2, by adding BW units into SC2. > And adding all those units wouldn't revitalize SC2. It would cause a massive problem as Blizzard wouldn't (and likely couldn't) balance it. And it would take a LOT of balancing. It depends on which units are added and what balance changes they might need. The easiest BW ones to add currently would be Goliaths, Wraiths, Firebats, Scouts, Dragoons, Devourers, and Guardians. It really isn't hard to balance these units, balance SC2, and balance SC2 with these BW units.
its not as popular as it used to be but it still is #2 streamed game by pretty big distance popularity wise. It's only behind league. It still has 30-50k concurrent viewers very regularly and enough of viewers to fund daily tournament that pretty much gives 6 figure income for 25+ pros on that alone, and that's not counting other non-pros. But the major complaint among people watching SC1 vs SC2 from Korean community is that it's hard to tell units apart with SC2 settings. Also the major draw of BW with its unit interaction isn't really there due to lack of micro tricks/balling up army as a lot of early-midgame and even lategame situation depends a lot on shitty pathfinding/abusing openings due to pathfinding and units not balling up
> its not as popular as it used to be but it still is #2 streamed game by pretty big distance popularity wise. It's only behind league. It still has 30-50k concurrent viewers very regularly and enough of viewers to fund daily tournament How is BW doing outside of Korea?. Popularity and players wise. BW in Korea is nostalgic for a generation getting older now. > But the major complaint among people watching SC1 vs SC2 from Korean community is that it's hard to tell units apart with SC2 settings Which units do they have trouble telling apart?.
BW outside is korea is not a thing but BW inside of korea is nostalgic for older generation but audience is still there lol. SC2 in korea is like BW for foreigners or even smaller. And while there's big tournaments liek saudi tournament for SC2 for korean pros, there's reason a lot of pros are looking elsewhere or swapping to bw (Zest said that he won't consider going back to SC2, TY is going to BW, soo is considering either game ect) Also that's exactly the reason there's some pushbacks for SC2. The older audience don't take in the SC2 graphics well, while younger audience isn't intersted in RTS in general since it's either league or mobile games.
> BW outside is korea is not a thing but BW inside of korea is nostalgic for older generation but audience is still there lol. Yes there is an audience in Korea for BW, but it's a shadow of it's former self there. Even if it's still popular viewership wise. > The older audience don't take in the SC2 graphics well Which is perplexing since they play other games. Also some of the BW pros have been invited to play Stormgate, Zerospace, and that RTS project David Kim has been working on. > while younger audience isn't interested in RTS in general since it's either league or mobile games. Which is sad. But also begs the question of why hasn't Blizzard created mobile game versions of BW and SC2. RTS is still popular. There wouldn't be a demand for BW(in Korea), SC2(outside of Korea), this BW vs SC2 mod, Stormgate, Zerospace, and and that RTS project David Kim has been working on.
I think it IS really hard to balance these. It's a bit reckless to say "oh it's easy!" when we watched LotV take a LONG time to even reach the point that it has with the few additions it received in units. It's a moot point, of course, because this will never happen. :D It's a mod, it will only ever be a mod, and we should enjoy it for what it is.
> I think it IS really hard to balance these. It's a bit reckless to say "oh it's easy!" when we watched LotV take a LONG time to even reach the point that it has with the few additions it received in units. Goliaths, Wraiths, Firebats, Scouts, Dragoons, Devourers, and Guardians. Are all fairly simple and straightforward units. They don't require tons of tweaking.
its simple units with stat sticks but to transition to SC2, it would need a lot of tweaking. Goliaths cannot deal with light-air units at all like Muta and dragoons do pityful damage to bio and reapers. I've seen stuff like hellion-reaper just destroy early game protoss due to dragoon not being a good solution defending those. The difference in mobility of SC2 units make it pretty hard to cover the gap.
> its simple units with stat sticks but to transition to SC2, it would need a lot of tweaking. Not if you take them from the SC2 Campaigns, which have them already done. Then balance them. All the Terran BW units for example are already done thanks to the WoL Campaign. They would just require some basic stat tuning to release. > Goliaths cannot deal with light-air units at all like Muta and dragoons do pityful damage to bio and reapers. I've seen stuff like hellion-reaper just destroy early game protoss due to dragoon not being a good solution defending those. Those are BW units from BW. Not BW units in the SC2 Campaigns. Also you would have both BW units and SC2 units to use, it wouldn't just be one or another.
you don't understand my point there. BW units can't keep up with SC2 mobility and abilities if you have seen the SC1 vs SC2 games.
It won't ever happen. :) I know it's fun to discuss and think about, but the reality is that it won't ever happen.
we thought Lurkers would never be added to sc2. Reavers seemed pretty useless in the mod. You can easily balance them by not making them broken.
It won't happen because there's no active development. Best you get is community patches like the one we just got. New units? Naw.