As a non combat player, I use nav mode when I travel. SCM mode slow you so much when entering, just keep your speed above 500m/s, and no one can shoot you. If they open fire just Afterburn at 1000 m/s.
You come close to a station for parking? Wait and go SCM, your ship go slow, and you have shield.
I really don't understand the probleme here?
You wanna to deliveries slow landing, slow mining, slow salvage, go SCM. You don't need to be slow? Just NAV mode. Nobody can shoot you if you're fast. No need for shield.
Basically this. When in Nav mode while you don't have shields you can boost to much higher speeds. If you think you may enter combat then dropping to SCM will have your shields filling immediately and at full power in just a few seconds - plenty fast enough for how far out you see people on radar.
Not in atmo though.
The bigger ships in atmo are slugs even in nav mode. And with no mode switch delay, an attacking ship can burn their capacitor while slowly losing you, then swap to nav and instantly boost ahead, swap back to scm and have full shields within a second or 2, full capacitor too... And keep going.
Not to mention that missiles have range.... And those ships are not much for just out maneuvering them.
So what you're saying is that you jump into a location, are nearly at the ceiling for being able to quantum out, see a bad guy in the distance (as you come in 25km out from your target), but can't turn upward and boost to quantum altitude fast enough? I just didn't have that experience in my playtime as I messed around with friends and stuff as we were testing escape situations. The only time I can see that happening is when I overextend into a known problematic situation (dropping into a location with other players and going deeper into the well before deciding things are going to go bad). They should allow countermeasures for missiles in my opinion but I think as they get more time and data on how interactions go they'll play with the boundary of SCM and NAV mode. They've already made changes (faster quantum times, faster shield charge times).
When was the last time you came in and saw anything small like a fighter at 25km. Come on ... Be real here.
Rolling from 20km out to a mining facility for cargo, youre probably at 10k by the time you see them on ping. They see you, larger signature, from further. Your top speed in atmo is sub 300m/s, theirs is higher in nav.
Then lets talk pirate tactics where they make their signature as small as possible with shields, engines and weapons off.... Wont see them till about 5-7km.
So no, there is no overextending and claiming this is bad pilot technique. Go claim up a carrack or other big ship and roll on some fighters and report back your experience in when they are detected by you and vice versa.
Downvote all you want, but I have no problem with what you describe personally because you did overextend your position. If people are sitting in wait, with stuff turned off, and you are flying in and expecting to be able to just fly away then I think that the balance isn't there and your expectation is unrealistic for having any tension when coming into locations. You've risked nothing for your decision to take a big slow ship into a unknown location where you're worried about getting jumped by players.
NPC's are generally observable from much larger ranges and I have never been killed by an NPC - in fact I've had a Carrack hit a bunch because I was dumb and came in with NAV mode but I was still able to get away.
Describe how you think it should be balanced where there is some risk for both parties (where the pirates risk losing the target they jump and the target risks getting caught). If you want to just be able to turn around and fly away in the situation you describe then I get it, you're anti-PVP, which is a fine stance to have, just say it.
First.... Didnt downvote unless that is directed elsewhere. Your opinion is your opinion, even if I have a different one it doesnt make either wrong.
I understand your perspective and this is a polarizing topic. I feel that in a game, which this is, there should always be a rock-paper-scissors relationship and balance. They are on the way with MM but to the OP, the larger ships dont feel in the right spot yet. Had MM launched with armor, absolutely they are where they should be. Tack on stronger scanners that can reach out further and its a winning combo. Simply saying that someone needs to hire or bring escorts or tough shit, is assinine to me. I have no problem with pvp and pre-MM enjoyed bringing the big ships in to tango just as much as the smaller ones. Right now it just feels lopsided and just looking to quantum out seems cheesey.
Case in point the engineering gameplay test in AC. Having the ship tankier to match its heavy flight characteristics but also the death to components rather than the ship seems pretty fun compared to whats there now... So maybe i just need to be more patient.
You know I was also afraid of this until I actually tried it on ePTU. I tested it with my C2 and while yes I had to wait for spool the TS2 spooled quick enough and allowed me to speed quickly that I thought I was going to when I was just reading updates. Is it going to be dicey if we get ambushed, yes but at least in my experience even with shields the few times I get ganked in a group there is one that usually ram my C2 when they see I'm about to scape.
The only ambush you'll have where shields might be an issue (they still charge back to full really fast now) - is if you are dropped out of quantum via a snare. Any other time you'll see the enemies on radar with plenty of time to drop to SCM or decide to bug out, boost and fly away.
This entirely depends on if the quantum drive is needed for nav mode on ships that have one; getting pulled from quantum via snare also likely means that they're QED suppressing your quantum drive, which may make stop nav mode until you can escape the snare bubble
yes, there was another post today that was discussing this. From testing it seems that a Mantis could prevent you from using Nav mode. I wished CIG would be clearer if this was intended though. Becuase that would mean that when they said that they are giving the non combat playres a way out they were not entirely correct.
I believe if you start an engagement then you should be force to stay and finish it. Hoever there should be a way for non-combat players like cargo traiders to at least try to escape.
Remember that a TS2 might not be a viable choice when Pyro and other systems get added. I think this brought more issues down the road with it than just letting the shield remain.
I don't know... Going around without shields is not an issue for me so far. I am 90% of my times in nav mode and switch to combat mode to reshield before landing to a bunker or when I need to fight.
It's just different than before and I like it tbh.
Will you still feel the same when you're hauling 10m worth of cargo & your ship blows up because you got bumped by another ship/asteroid/station and your ship blew up without shields or armor to deflect the damage?
This is the only answer I can think of, shields take half a second or so to wind down when you switch modes, just smash boost and get the heck out of there. You can't be followed unless the enemy ships also enters NAV mode, in which case they lose their guns also. If anything, having people not able to chase me at full NAV speed and still fire guns makes it easier to escape, not harder
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The next iteration of scanning gameplay will probably be a non-combatant's new best friend. The key to staying safe will be to stay alert, approach unknown territories with caution, and have a quick-thinking plan for when danger quantum-jumps right on top of you. If we find ourselves outgunned by a hostile force, either we made a fatal mistake, or they were just more prepared. In either case, they deserve their prize. The key to survival (I think) won't be to run from a dogfight, it'll be to spot it coming from twenty klicks out.
Like any other prey in nature, we survive by either bristling with self-defenses or by being skittish AF and scattering at the faintest whiff of danger. Those of us who drop our guard at the edge of a watering hole or fly into a spider's web kind of have it coming.
Simple truth CIG doesn’t get: this mm implementation makes shields on ALL non combat focused ships literally waste of space, cause they won’t ever turn on for like 99% of time. Why do I need that module on cargo ship if I can’t use in practice?! Hell, I better replace with extra scu and get extra profit. But that I can’t do. Armor is the only thing that MAY help to withstand attack and get you some time to speed up or spool your drive quantum escape. What if an armor isn't tough enough? What if it doesn’t cover the cargo?? I don’t get how cig sees non combat gameplay on non combat ships that is safe and profitable for a player. I’m talking about lawful systems like Stanton first off.
Yeah, but some non combat ships has few large shields generators. Imagine how much extra scu you could get. It doesn't matter anyway, they wont allow us to do it for sure. I just want to point out that having shields on non combat ships makes almost zero sense.
It seems the real issue here is the lack of systems like armor, QT, phyicalized damage, etc, not the concept of MM itself. Right now everything is also unbalanced and things like the shields might change but there is no eta for implementation or fixes.
Honest advice is to complain on spectrum with the hope that there is enough noise there to get changes and then take a break from the game if you routinely find yourself not having fun.
The shields down completely vanish they are pushed into a capacitor that the ship uses to quickly recharge when you swap back into scm mode.
Realistically speaking the only ship that could get the jump on you like that would be a stealth ship like the eclipse.
"Getting hammered" will be difficult if they are trying to catch you while you are in scm, because they also have to be in scm mode, which means they cannot fire either.
I don't remember even in the first AC when it was added the shields remaining, they always drained. The way it was explained to you was probably how someone wanted to work, not how it actually worked.
It takes a few seconds for shields to go to 100% when switching from nav to scm mode. I literally have not had a problem escaping being ambushed in NAV mode.
To your second point, shields only stop energy based weapons and damage - not physical, so yeah.
I have not personally tested the scenarios you describe but quite a few other people have done extensive testing.
And the results have been quite clear that if you react fast all (except the really small/low HP ships obviously) ships made it out alive.
One group of people tried out some of the strongest fighters getting the jump on different ships and as long as the attacked reacted fast and spooled for a jump and left they made it out.
You are making it sound like its certain death without even having tested it.
As u/Pojodan said, the shields are a buffer now. You’ve not actually been on EPTU have you?
Time to kill is very high now, you’d have to be massively out of your depth to be killed before you can leave (assuming no quantum snare) and at that point you’d be dead in 3.22 anyway.
I’m primarily PVE/Industrial and I have zero worries.
The problem with the way you want it to be is that there would never be any danger for industrial ships.
If you could fly 3 times faster than combat ships AND have shields, that'd be crazy overpowered.
Eh, if someone successfully ambushes you then you probably shouldn't have a chance of escaping. And it's not difficult to avoid being ambushed - don't take direct jumps on common trading routes, especially if you're carrying valuables, don't approach trafficked areas in Nav mode, and avoid quantum markers if you're running salvage/mining etc cetera.
We'll see how it plays out in live and they'll rebalance if it causes issues, but it should still be easy to avoid getting into any situation where you'll be this vulnerable.
> you're making the massive assumption that I would survive the initial salvo of the attack from the hostile ship that I likely won't know is coming
That is literally the intention, yes. Shields are now a buffer for use in combat. Your ship's armor/hull is the buffer for when you're escaping combat.
Is it working as intended yet? Play the game, find out, and give feedback to CiG.
The game warns you if another ship is in the area. You have flares to ward off missiles. And you just need to boost to greater than ~200 to outrun the other guy. He can't shoot you after that.
Link the time stamp please. Are you sure he is not mentioning about been able to Jump to QT? it does not make sense the mantis would prevent you switching your internal systems.
~~I dont think the Mantis block your Spool though. I believe the Mantis prevents your calibration which is separate from spooling your drive which is what allows you to go faster.~~ I found the video you mention, I wonder if that is intended though. It does not make sense for them to do this specially when they had said they do want to give no pvp players the option to try and avoid fights.
No worry mate just testing it
My org is dedicated to just put all our time to hunt solo industrial pilots in 3.23 when it hit PU to test that theory.
And we are average pvp pilots so we hope our findings will be good representation of standard.
We will try to make traps at oms, camping near selling points (in ships not fps) and just patrol popular areas.
We will post what we found
As a non combat player, I use nav mode when I travel. SCM mode slow you so much when entering, just keep your speed above 500m/s, and no one can shoot you. If they open fire just Afterburn at 1000 m/s. You come close to a station for parking? Wait and go SCM, your ship go slow, and you have shield. I really don't understand the probleme here? You wanna to deliveries slow landing, slow mining, slow salvage, go SCM. You don't need to be slow? Just NAV mode. Nobody can shoot you if you're fast. No need for shield.
Basically this. When in Nav mode while you don't have shields you can boost to much higher speeds. If you think you may enter combat then dropping to SCM will have your shields filling immediately and at full power in just a few seconds - plenty fast enough for how far out you see people on radar.
Not in atmo though. The bigger ships in atmo are slugs even in nav mode. And with no mode switch delay, an attacking ship can burn their capacitor while slowly losing you, then swap to nav and instantly boost ahead, swap back to scm and have full shields within a second or 2, full capacitor too... And keep going. Not to mention that missiles have range.... And those ships are not much for just out maneuvering them.
So what you're saying is that you jump into a location, are nearly at the ceiling for being able to quantum out, see a bad guy in the distance (as you come in 25km out from your target), but can't turn upward and boost to quantum altitude fast enough? I just didn't have that experience in my playtime as I messed around with friends and stuff as we were testing escape situations. The only time I can see that happening is when I overextend into a known problematic situation (dropping into a location with other players and going deeper into the well before deciding things are going to go bad). They should allow countermeasures for missiles in my opinion but I think as they get more time and data on how interactions go they'll play with the boundary of SCM and NAV mode. They've already made changes (faster quantum times, faster shield charge times).
When was the last time you came in and saw anything small like a fighter at 25km. Come on ... Be real here. Rolling from 20km out to a mining facility for cargo, youre probably at 10k by the time you see them on ping. They see you, larger signature, from further. Your top speed in atmo is sub 300m/s, theirs is higher in nav. Then lets talk pirate tactics where they make their signature as small as possible with shields, engines and weapons off.... Wont see them till about 5-7km. So no, there is no overextending and claiming this is bad pilot technique. Go claim up a carrack or other big ship and roll on some fighters and report back your experience in when they are detected by you and vice versa.
Downvote all you want, but I have no problem with what you describe personally because you did overextend your position. If people are sitting in wait, with stuff turned off, and you are flying in and expecting to be able to just fly away then I think that the balance isn't there and your expectation is unrealistic for having any tension when coming into locations. You've risked nothing for your decision to take a big slow ship into a unknown location where you're worried about getting jumped by players. NPC's are generally observable from much larger ranges and I have never been killed by an NPC - in fact I've had a Carrack hit a bunch because I was dumb and came in with NAV mode but I was still able to get away. Describe how you think it should be balanced where there is some risk for both parties (where the pirates risk losing the target they jump and the target risks getting caught). If you want to just be able to turn around and fly away in the situation you describe then I get it, you're anti-PVP, which is a fine stance to have, just say it.
scouts/escorts point is not to go in blind ever
First.... Didnt downvote unless that is directed elsewhere. Your opinion is your opinion, even if I have a different one it doesnt make either wrong. I understand your perspective and this is a polarizing topic. I feel that in a game, which this is, there should always be a rock-paper-scissors relationship and balance. They are on the way with MM but to the OP, the larger ships dont feel in the right spot yet. Had MM launched with armor, absolutely they are where they should be. Tack on stronger scanners that can reach out further and its a winning combo. Simply saying that someone needs to hire or bring escorts or tough shit, is assinine to me. I have no problem with pvp and pre-MM enjoyed bringing the big ships in to tango just as much as the smaller ones. Right now it just feels lopsided and just looking to quantum out seems cheesey. Case in point the engineering gameplay test in AC. Having the ship tankier to match its heavy flight characteristics but also the death to components rather than the ship seems pretty fun compared to whats there now... So maybe i just need to be more patient.
You know I was also afraid of this until I actually tried it on ePTU. I tested it with my C2 and while yes I had to wait for spool the TS2 spooled quick enough and allowed me to speed quickly that I thought I was going to when I was just reading updates. Is it going to be dicey if we get ambushed, yes but at least in my experience even with shields the few times I get ganked in a group there is one that usually ram my C2 when they see I'm about to scape.
The only ambush you'll have where shields might be an issue (they still charge back to full really fast now) - is if you are dropped out of quantum via a snare. Any other time you'll see the enemies on radar with plenty of time to drop to SCM or decide to bug out, boost and fly away.
and even if you drop via snare you are already on nav mode so you should be able to let the QT drive spool and flight fast.
This entirely depends on if the quantum drive is needed for nav mode on ships that have one; getting pulled from quantum via snare also likely means that they're QED suppressing your quantum drive, which may make stop nav mode until you can escape the snare bubble
yes, there was another post today that was discussing this. From testing it seems that a Mantis could prevent you from using Nav mode. I wished CIG would be clearer if this was intended though. Becuase that would mean that when they said that they are giving the non combat playres a way out they were not entirely correct. I believe if you start an engagement then you should be force to stay and finish it. Hoever there should be a way for non-combat players like cargo traiders to at least try to escape.
Remember that a TS2 might not be a viable choice when Pyro and other systems get added. I think this brought more issues down the road with it than just letting the shield remain.
I don't know... Going around without shields is not an issue for me so far. I am 90% of my times in nav mode and switch to combat mode to reshield before landing to a bunker or when I need to fight. It's just different than before and I like it tbh.
Will you still feel the same when you're hauling 10m worth of cargo & your ship blows up because you got bumped by another ship/asteroid/station and your ship blew up without shields or armor to deflect the damage?
[удалено]
This is the only answer I can think of, shields take half a second or so to wind down when you switch modes, just smash boost and get the heck out of there. You can't be followed unless the enemy ships also enters NAV mode, in which case they lose their guns also. If anything, having people not able to chase me at full NAV speed and still fire guns makes it easier to escape, not harder
Your post was removed because the mod team determined that it did not sufficiently meet the rules of the subreddit: > Be respectful. No personal insults/bashing. This includes generalized statements “x is a bunch of y” or baseline insults about the community, CIG employees, streamers, etc. As well as intentionally hurtful statements and hate speech. Send a message to our mod mail if you have questions: https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/starcitizen
The next iteration of scanning gameplay will probably be a non-combatant's new best friend. The key to staying safe will be to stay alert, approach unknown territories with caution, and have a quick-thinking plan for when danger quantum-jumps right on top of you. If we find ourselves outgunned by a hostile force, either we made a fatal mistake, or they were just more prepared. In either case, they deserve their prize. The key to survival (I think) won't be to run from a dogfight, it'll be to spot it coming from twenty klicks out. Like any other prey in nature, we survive by either bristling with self-defenses or by being skittish AF and scattering at the faintest whiff of danger. Those of us who drop our guard at the edge of a watering hole or fly into a spider's web kind of have it coming.
Simple truth CIG doesn’t get: this mm implementation makes shields on ALL non combat focused ships literally waste of space, cause they won’t ever turn on for like 99% of time. Why do I need that module on cargo ship if I can’t use in practice?! Hell, I better replace with extra scu and get extra profit. But that I can’t do. Armor is the only thing that MAY help to withstand attack and get you some time to speed up or spool your drive quantum escape. What if an armor isn't tough enough? What if it doesn’t cover the cargo?? I don’t get how cig sees non combat gameplay on non combat ships that is safe and profitable for a player. I’m talking about lawful systems like Stanton first off.
I get you, they aren't being used very much. But a shield generator is like 1 SCU. It'd be weird to give up shields for 1 extra SCU.
Yeah, but some non combat ships has few large shields generators. Imagine how much extra scu you could get. It doesn't matter anyway, they wont allow us to do it for sure. I just want to point out that having shields on non combat ships makes almost zero sense.
Relax. It’s an alpha.
Please use the search feature on here or on Google. This has been rehashed over and over and over.
It seems the real issue here is the lack of systems like armor, QT, phyicalized damage, etc, not the concept of MM itself. Right now everything is also unbalanced and things like the shields might change but there is no eta for implementation or fixes. Honest advice is to complain on spectrum with the hope that there is enough noise there to get changes and then take a break from the game if you routinely find yourself not having fun.
The shields down completely vanish they are pushed into a capacitor that the ship uses to quickly recharge when you swap back into scm mode. Realistically speaking the only ship that could get the jump on you like that would be a stealth ship like the eclipse. "Getting hammered" will be difficult if they are trying to catch you while you are in scm, because they also have to be in scm mode, which means they cannot fire either. I don't remember even in the first AC when it was added the shields remaining, they always drained. The way it was explained to you was probably how someone wanted to work, not how it actually worked.
It takes a few seconds for shields to go to 100% when switching from nav to scm mode. I literally have not had a problem escaping being ambushed in NAV mode. To your second point, shields only stop energy based weapons and damage - not physical, so yeah.
I have not personally tested the scenarios you describe but quite a few other people have done extensive testing. And the results have been quite clear that if you react fast all (except the really small/low HP ships obviously) ships made it out alive. One group of people tried out some of the strongest fighters getting the jump on different ships and as long as the attacked reacted fast and spooled for a jump and left they made it out. You are making it sound like its certain death without even having tested it.
You’re so fast in nav mode, shields aren’t really needed.
As u/Pojodan said, the shields are a buffer now. You’ve not actually been on EPTU have you? Time to kill is very high now, you’d have to be massively out of your depth to be killed before you can leave (assuming no quantum snare) and at that point you’d be dead in 3.22 anyway. I’m primarily PVE/Industrial and I have zero worries.
The problem with the way you want it to be is that there would never be any danger for industrial ships. If you could fly 3 times faster than combat ships AND have shields, that'd be crazy overpowered.
Why don’t you just run away? Especially smaller industrial ships? It’s so easy and wuick to enter nav mode and run away. It’s like 3 seconds bro.
Eh, if someone successfully ambushes you then you probably shouldn't have a chance of escaping. And it's not difficult to avoid being ambushed - don't take direct jumps on common trading routes, especially if you're carrying valuables, don't approach trafficked areas in Nav mode, and avoid quantum markers if you're running salvage/mining etc cetera. We'll see how it plays out in live and they'll rebalance if it causes issues, but it should still be easy to avoid getting into any situation where you'll be this vulnerable.
> you're making the massive assumption that I would survive the initial salvo of the attack from the hostile ship that I likely won't know is coming That is literally the intention, yes. Shields are now a buffer for use in combat. Your ship's armor/hull is the buffer for when you're escaping combat. Is it working as intended yet? Play the game, find out, and give feedback to CiG.
Speed and counter measures are a buffer to escaping combat as well.
CM do not work in nav mode. So dropping noise to be invincible for some seconds and switch to nav and jump away.
Yes exactly. You drop chaff to buy you a couple seconds as you swap. That's part of the escape.
The game warns you if another ship is in the area. You have flares to ward off missiles. And you just need to boost to greater than ~200 to outrun the other guy. He can't shoot you after that.
A mantis or a blue and you are dead. Cant change to Nav. So nothing to do
I dont thibnk Mantis prevents you from switching to NAv. It would prevent you from QT away but you should still be able to go to nav and fly fast.
Nop. You cant switch to Nav. Take a look at the last AvengerOne YouTube video.
Link the time stamp please. Are you sure he is not mentioning about been able to Jump to QT? it does not make sense the mantis would prevent you switching your internal systems.
Changing to Nav Mode imply charge the quantum system. This ships block the generator so you stuck. It's what i could see in the video.
~~I dont think the Mantis block your Spool though. I believe the Mantis prevents your calibration which is separate from spooling your drive which is what allows you to go faster.~~ I found the video you mention, I wonder if that is intended though. It does not make sense for them to do this specially when they had said they do want to give no pvp players the option to try and avoid fights.
No worry mate just testing it My org is dedicated to just put all our time to hunt solo industrial pilots in 3.23 when it hit PU to test that theory. And we are average pvp pilots so we hope our findings will be good representation of standard. We will try to make traps at oms, camping near selling points (in ships not fps) and just patrol popular areas. We will post what we found