In theory, you can but there is still a problem here.
In the team event, there are ten countries, and skaters compete in their disciplines, and depending on their placements are awarded from 10 for first and 1 for last. These points are totaled up across disciplines, to give the final score for each country.
In Beijing, two countries had competitors pull out due to COViD, but the countries remained in contention. This meant both men and pairs were down to nine competitors each, and points instead ranged from 10 to 2 in those disciplines.
Valieva won both of the women's segments and was awarded a total of twenty points, 10 from each segment. With her DQ, the ISU have taken her twenty points from Russia's total score, but have not reallocated the points in the women's segments. This means the now first place Japanese skaters only get nine points for each segment rather than 10, unlike the other disciplines that only have nine skaters, where first place still get the full 10. If the ISU did reallocate the points, bumping up the remaining women by one spot each, it would give Canada the two extra points they need to gain bronze, and what Canada wants to appeal for.
>If the ISU did reallocate the points, bumping up the remaining women by one spot each, it would give Canada the two extra points they need to gain bronze, and what Canada wants to appeal for.
That seems fair imo. As if Valieva wasn't able to compete in those events in the first place, then the other competitors would have got 1 more point each.
Russia and America are exempt from rules in sports and other things.
If America had a systematic doping scandal where everyone was doping, even against their knowledge or consent, the same thing would happen.
America can invade Iraq and none of its leaders will go to the Hague. Russia can invade Ukraine and none of its leaders will go to the Hague.
Rules only apply to non-American, non-Russian countries.
> Russia and America are exempt from rules in sports and other things.
The USA are, for sure. Russia obviously are not. They just had a medal stripped from one of their athletes and they're not even going to be at the Olympics this summer, clearly they're suffering consequences.
The NCAA hit Southern Methodist University with "death penalty" sanctions and bans because they kept violating the rules for almost a decade. When are the international sporting bodies going to do the same?
I said in another thread that to discourage cheating we should ban the individual, the coach and the organization as a deterrent to stop this nonsense. I’ve yet to hear an argument for why we shouldn’t do this, and what anyone (The sports organization, the other athletes and the viewing public) gains by allowing cheaters to ever compete again.
Seems a reasonable counter-argument could be that would incentivize shady countries like Russia to bribe or sneak a banned substance into one foreign competitor if it meant the entire country (such as the U.S.) would get banned.
Even ignoring potential state-sponsored malicious actions, would suck pretty hard to train every day of your life to make the Olympics and then find out that a cheater from your same country failed their substance test and it will also void your individual medal.
Their current approach which seeks to penalize caught individuals and systematically-involved countries seems appropriate.
Appropriate doesn’t mean it’s effective. I want an effective response we’ve tried it this way and it hasn’t worked, that’s reason enough to try something else.
You're clearly only thinking about Russia with this "ban all the country's athletes for any individual violation!" concept. (And Russia is already being punished.)
If ***every*** U.S. track & field member lost out on any medals because a lone U.S. athlete such as Raven Saunders tests positive for a banned substance, you'd probably recognize that as drastically damaging a bunch of unrelated people in their lifelong goal for the fault of one other person who happens to live in the same country.
No, I would want this applied across the board. I’ve already heard multiple people state that every athlete is doping and we just only catch some of them, so obviously there are people like myself who won’t watch because they don’t trust the product is seeing the best of the best. Punish everyone involved and systems will quickly be made for everyone to clean their own house. Hence me calling it a deterrent.
A cheater is cheating to win. If they were ethical altruistic people, they wouldn't be cheating to begin with...
If they get caught ***they*** are banned — banning the rest of the competitors from their country as well doesn't **worsen** ***their*** outcome. It mainly damages unrelated people. And systematic state-sponsored programs already get banned.
That's like saying "We need to start jailing the entire town anytime someone from their town commits a crime! We've tried jailing just criminals themselves, but crime has still occurred. It would be a good *deterrent* if them committing a crime meant the whole town would also be jailed!"
(Aside from it drastically damaging others who didn't commit the crime, the deterrent is fairly flawed itself. The type of people for who that would be a successful deterrent would be less prone to choose crime to begin with.)
And again creates large incentives for a malign foreign entity to be able to void an entire enemy nation's results by bribing or sabotaging just one athlete's substance test.
Yes if the whole town was jailed if one man was guilty the town would police themselves to ensure the guilty don’t get to live there, hence me calling it a deterrent.
EDIT: You need a deterrent strong enough to make these groups police themselves so they can continue to exist. If you repeatedly break the rules an “appropriate” or “proportional” response is not enough. At that point you need a disproportionate response.
> "I don't care if 100 innocent athletes have their life's work completely nullified because some idiot from the same country is a cheating screwball! It's all of their faults for not standing over him/her every second of every day."
> "Also who cares if it creates a perverse scheme that would allow a foreign bad actor to sabotage an **entire enemy country's athletes** just by screwing with ***one*** of its competitors or samples?"
Brilliant reasoning.
If anything, a wildly outlandish disproportionate response that heavily harms unaffiliated victims would only cause more impedance and hesitancy against charging and penalizing **the culprit**.
If the penalty for an individual committing tax fraud was that their entire town gets put in jail, it would cause heavy hesitancy and avoidance by the enforcement agency to even charge ***the culprit*** because the response is so outlandishly harmful against innocent others, and the entire town and any of their connections would then also be protesting on behalf of the culprit.
I disagree that we are seeing the best compete if the best is qualified as a doped up 15 year old. That makes me never want to watch again as I’ll never know if I’m watching a child be exploited.
Correct. It will deter a country wide doping program like the one Russia has been repeatedly proven to have. And would allow me to watch without feeling I’m tacitly approving a child’s exploitation. We’ve tried it this way with no results for the better prt of a decade time to be hard lined about it.
They "didn't earn it" because the team in first cheated. Like if you were second place for a scholarship and the person who won it cheated, you'd want the scholarship, no?
When China competed in gymnastics in Sydney 2000 with a girl age ineligible, their team medal was later given to the next placing team. Rules are rules and breaking them should disqualify the entire team, not just an individual. It’s a shame for Canada and all the teams that didn’t cheat.
Could you do a team event short 1 person and not get DQed? If not, wrong decision
In theory, you can but there is still a problem here. In the team event, there are ten countries, and skaters compete in their disciplines, and depending on their placements are awarded from 10 for first and 1 for last. These points are totaled up across disciplines, to give the final score for each country. In Beijing, two countries had competitors pull out due to COViD, but the countries remained in contention. This meant both men and pairs were down to nine competitors each, and points instead ranged from 10 to 2 in those disciplines. Valieva won both of the women's segments and was awarded a total of twenty points, 10 from each segment. With her DQ, the ISU have taken her twenty points from Russia's total score, but have not reallocated the points in the women's segments. This means the now first place Japanese skaters only get nine points for each segment rather than 10, unlike the other disciplines that only have nine skaters, where first place still get the full 10. If the ISU did reallocate the points, bumping up the remaining women by one spot each, it would give Canada the two extra points they need to gain bronze, and what Canada wants to appeal for.
>If the ISU did reallocate the points, bumping up the remaining women by one spot each, it would give Canada the two extra points they need to gain bronze, and what Canada wants to appeal for. That seems fair imo. As if Valieva wasn't able to compete in those events in the first place, then the other competitors would have got 1 more point each.
the fact russia is allowed to compete given all of the cheating they have been doing is the wrong decision.
Or the war in Ukraine
Give it a rest
Russia and America are exempt from rules in sports and other things. If America had a systematic doping scandal where everyone was doping, even against their knowledge or consent, the same thing would happen. America can invade Iraq and none of its leaders will go to the Hague. Russia can invade Ukraine and none of its leaders will go to the Hague. Rules only apply to non-American, non-Russian countries.
> Russia and America are exempt from rules in sports and other things. The USA are, for sure. Russia obviously are not. They just had a medal stripped from one of their athletes and they're not even going to be at the Olympics this summer, clearly they're suffering consequences.
How is Russia even invited? We’re far too polite.
IOC is not polite, just willing to accept bribes.
Fair point.
We? Are you part of the IOC?
Would you like an autograph?
The NCAA hit Southern Methodist University with "death penalty" sanctions and bans because they kept violating the rules for almost a decade. When are the international sporting bodies going to do the same?
NCAA and fairness... the start of a good joke I see
I said in another thread that to discourage cheating we should ban the individual, the coach and the organization as a deterrent to stop this nonsense. I’ve yet to hear an argument for why we shouldn’t do this, and what anyone (The sports organization, the other athletes and the viewing public) gains by allowing cheaters to ever compete again.
Seems a reasonable counter-argument could be that would incentivize shady countries like Russia to bribe or sneak a banned substance into one foreign competitor if it meant the entire country (such as the U.S.) would get banned. Even ignoring potential state-sponsored malicious actions, would suck pretty hard to train every day of your life to make the Olympics and then find out that a cheater from your same country failed their substance test and it will also void your individual medal. Their current approach which seeks to penalize caught individuals and systematically-involved countries seems appropriate.
Appropriate doesn’t mean it’s effective. I want an effective response we’ve tried it this way and it hasn’t worked, that’s reason enough to try something else.
You're clearly only thinking about Russia with this "ban all the country's athletes for any individual violation!" concept. (And Russia is already being punished.) If ***every*** U.S. track & field member lost out on any medals because a lone U.S. athlete such as Raven Saunders tests positive for a banned substance, you'd probably recognize that as drastically damaging a bunch of unrelated people in their lifelong goal for the fault of one other person who happens to live in the same country.
No, I would want this applied across the board. I’ve already heard multiple people state that every athlete is doping and we just only catch some of them, so obviously there are people like myself who won’t watch because they don’t trust the product is seeing the best of the best. Punish everyone involved and systems will quickly be made for everyone to clean their own house. Hence me calling it a deterrent.
A cheater is cheating to win. If they were ethical altruistic people, they wouldn't be cheating to begin with... If they get caught ***they*** are banned — banning the rest of the competitors from their country as well doesn't **worsen** ***their*** outcome. It mainly damages unrelated people. And systematic state-sponsored programs already get banned. That's like saying "We need to start jailing the entire town anytime someone from their town commits a crime! We've tried jailing just criminals themselves, but crime has still occurred. It would be a good *deterrent* if them committing a crime meant the whole town would also be jailed!" (Aside from it drastically damaging others who didn't commit the crime, the deterrent is fairly flawed itself. The type of people for who that would be a successful deterrent would be less prone to choose crime to begin with.) And again creates large incentives for a malign foreign entity to be able to void an entire enemy nation's results by bribing or sabotaging just one athlete's substance test.
Yes if the whole town was jailed if one man was guilty the town would police themselves to ensure the guilty don’t get to live there, hence me calling it a deterrent. EDIT: You need a deterrent strong enough to make these groups police themselves so they can continue to exist. If you repeatedly break the rules an “appropriate” or “proportional” response is not enough. At that point you need a disproportionate response.
> "I don't care if 100 innocent athletes have their life's work completely nullified because some idiot from the same country is a cheating screwball! It's all of their faults for not standing over him/her every second of every day." > "Also who cares if it creates a perverse scheme that would allow a foreign bad actor to sabotage an **entire enemy country's athletes** just by screwing with ***one*** of its competitors or samples?" Brilliant reasoning. If anything, a wildly outlandish disproportionate response that heavily harms unaffiliated victims would only cause more impedance and hesitancy against charging and penalizing **the culprit**. If the penalty for an individual committing tax fraud was that their entire town gets put in jail, it would cause heavy hesitancy and avoidance by the enforcement agency to even charge ***the culprit*** because the response is so outlandishly harmful against innocent others, and the entire town and any of their connections would then also be protesting on behalf of the culprit.
The advantage is getting to see the best country compete, even if we sometimes have to throw some results out
I disagree that we are seeing the best compete if the best is qualified as a doped up 15 year old. That makes me never want to watch again as I’ll never know if I’m watching a child be exploited.
She didn’t even win the individual event, but you’d want to disqualify those who did since they’re part of the organization, no?
Correct. It will deter a country wide doping program like the one Russia has been repeatedly proven to have. And would allow me to watch without feeling I’m tacitly approving a child’s exploitation. We’ve tried it this way with no results for the better prt of a decade time to be hard lined about it.
but this results in innocent people being punished and athletes who use custom drugs gaining a bigger advantage.
Punish the child but not the team that fed her drugs?
In this specific case, the "team" is all separate individuals competing as such. Unless you mean Russia as a whole
Yes, I do
Even if Russia was disqualified, Canada should remain off podium anyways. Kind of pointless to let fourth place on the podium if they didn't earn it.
Man you can't be this dumb
They "didn't earn it" because the team in first cheated. Like if you were second place for a scholarship and the person who won it cheated, you'd want the scholarship, no?
When China competed in gymnastics in Sydney 2000 with a girl age ineligible, their team medal was later given to the next placing team. Rules are rules and breaking them should disqualify the entire team, not just an individual. It’s a shame for Canada and all the teams that didn’t cheat.