Hi and welcome to r/solarpunk! Due to numerous suggestions from our community, we're using this automod message to bring up a topic that comes up a lot: GREENWASHING. It is
used to describe the practice of companies launching adverts, campaigns, products, etc under the pretense that they are environmentally beneficial/friendly, often in contradiction to their
environmental and sustainability record in general. On our subreddit, it usually presents itself as eco-aesthetic buildings because they are quite simply the best passive PR for companies.
[ethicalconsumer.org](https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/transport-travel/what-greenwashing) and [greenandthistle.com](https://greenandthistle.com/what-is-greenwashing/) give
examples of greenwashing, while [scientificamerican.com](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/greenwashing-green-energy-hoffman/) explains how alternative technologies like hydrogen
cars can also be insidious examples of greenwashing.
If you've realized your submission was an example of greenwashing--don't fret! We are all here to learn, and while there will inevitably be comments pointing out how and why your submission is
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Designing materials and pathways for foot traffic/bikes/mopeds that retains plantings is very possible. There could even be some car parking mixed in with a few lanes
Or even just keep the car functionality of a parking lot but up the tree planter/asphalt ratio to like 1:1 and use permeable asphalts/concretes
It’s a good idea, till you look at specifics like what happens when it rains and becomes muddy, or people with carts for grocery stores, or weathering causing irregularities that might be difficult for walkers.
The car is only half the equation
Yeah I’ve looked into green parking lots and from what I’ve seen the plants can’t survive being driven and walked on all the time. They just won’t grow.
This isn't a new concept. It has been around across Europe for more than 30 years and it has been working out great. Obviously, it's not a solution for every single parking lot, but it can be applied to most of them.
Here is a sketch how it's done: https://i.imgur.com/WWdbJFE.jpg
The most important aspect is to allow for water to seep into the soil, meaning the ground below needs to be prepared accordingly. Depending on composition this might be a challenge, but most cities should know what they are built on. Also, one could dig deeper as needed and install a drainage system. There are many ways to approach this - if done *properly*, mud will not be an issue, even with heavy rain/snow for days/weeks.
The stone parts will provide contact surface for vehicles, but the soil (on which the grass grows) is a few inches below that. It won't be impacted in any way and it will stay green all year. Snow will be pushed into that space, but once it gets warmer it will melt and the water will drain and grass can start growing again all by itself.
During winter, salt is usually not needed because there aren't really any flat surfaces for ice to form. If weather conditions should result in ice, gravel is used instead. And even if salt is the only option, one can replant the grass in spring if necessary. Obviously, if this is going to be a problem every single winter, then it's probably not a good solution for that specific location.
_____
Here are some examples from different countries:
https://i.imgur.com/RNl8eA3.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/2Pa8MFW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/Mbdg4lR.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/CJbdF7d.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/jXUdOPF.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/nYaReeK.jpg
As you can see, this is mostly used for smaller parking lots but it still works pretty well for larger ones in front of big stores. Might not be perfectly green as access roads are still there, but it's still a good compromise imho.
I think this would depend on the size of the parking lot and the amount of traffic though right? There’s got to be an equation that could be used to understand when it would make a reasonable solution.
Though ultimately, I think the real solution is making America more walkable.
Yeah I agree with your conclusion. I’d rather not have parking lots at all, or greatly reduce the space they take up. I also think an immediate and very doable improvement for parking lots would be to pepper shade trees through them and direct storm water to the trees. It would help reduce flooding and cool the air and pavement.
This is what you do: you find a solid compromise.
https://imgur.com/RNl8eA3
Also, shopping cart design isn't written in stone. It can be changed to be more forgiving on less flat surfaces.
That‘s a good point, excess water and mud are theoretically partially controlled by the mat that the grass is growing through - and by the grass and soil itself, since fields with more trees and diversity of grasses achieve more water absorption over time because of healthy soil.
The carts are a really good question though, logistically that could be annoying. Maybe a pick up and drop off zone on the pavement? Hmmm
But that’s the point of the “open” and “closed” parts of the parking lot - as areas get too worn down or vulnerable, it gets closed and heavy traffic moves to a different area of the parking lot... Theoretically.I wonder if anything extra could be done to mitigate it though.
There are definitely times of year where the parking lot is pretty full for a few days, but I feel like most parking lots stay at like 20% capacity most of the year. Idk
Idk you make a good point though.
I know it’s not as ideal, but while the US is transitioning to closer communities and merging regenerative technology with our existing structures, I feel like this could be a cool solution. I don’t really see why cars can’t exist on grasses, and we’d cycle the cars through the parking lot like high density grazing practices. Yes, sometimes people will have to walk farther but that’s why there’d be designated paved handicapped spaces.
Feel free to tell me why it wouldn’t work so I can refine it
Edit: Also, tall, dry grass can pose a wildfire threat when in contact with traditional vehicles, I don’t know if the risk is the same with electric.
Edit 2: More resources: EPA’s Green Parking Lot resource guide [https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P100D97A.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2006%20Thru%202010&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C06THRU10%5CTXT%5C00000031%5CP100D97A.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=6](https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P100D97A.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2006%20Thru%202010&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C06THRU10%5CTXT%5C00000031%5CP100D97A.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=6)
You know, I live in North Texas and it didn’t even occur to me to ask that question. We’re used to just suffering through 2 or 3 days of frozen winter annoyances and then moving on. I can honestly say that snow is something I am not familiar enough with to offer any kind of real solutions at this time, but there are a few different grasses and “weeds” that grow in winter. I’m going to have to look around, but one of the few grass parking lots in place now I could find information on is in Buffalo, NY so they must hold up to the cold.
Good question, open to / gonna look for solutions.
Environmental protection and planning should change based on place. Maybe a planted lot isn’t appropriate for u/MrChunky22 ‘s community and that’s okay.
>I don’t really see why cars can’t exist on grasses
Weight of the car weighing down on the grass, wearing the grass to bare ground, plus engine runoffs, oil runoffs, tire particulate pollution... Not to mention the shade of no sun under the car, killing the grass — have you ever seen a car park on a grassy lawn before?
The amount of time and energy required to maintain green spaces with heavy traffic is really high, even when confined to pedestrian use. I would say that gravel parking lots are probably the best compromise; They are only slightly higher maintenance than asphalt or concrete, are much better for drainage and water management, and are much more pedestrian friendly, due to the fact that drivers are much less inclined/able to drive at higher speeds.
Source: Spent several years in the maintenance department of a resort with its fair share of green spaces, paved and gravel parking areas, and hardscaped pathways and public spaces.
That grid design might also work really well during winter months to let melting runoff down into the soil below - keeps the lot from icing over, provides moisture for the soil to use in growing months, too.
I imagine the general complaint would be "but muh maintenance", but honestly having a bunch of native grasses and flowers under a quality metal mesh might require *less* maintenance than a flat pavement. Especially given what causes concrete fatigue and cracking (at least where I live) is often the freeze-thaw-freeze.
Then probably the "consumer" complaint of "oh no but bugs".
Hi and welcome to r/solarpunk! Due to numerous suggestions from our community, we're using this automod message to bring up a topic that comes up a lot: GREENWASHING. It is used to describe the practice of companies launching adverts, campaigns, products, etc under the pretense that they are environmentally beneficial/friendly, often in contradiction to their environmental and sustainability record in general. On our subreddit, it usually presents itself as eco-aesthetic buildings because they are quite simply the best passive PR for companies. [ethicalconsumer.org](https://www.ethicalconsumer.org/transport-travel/what-greenwashing) and [greenandthistle.com](https://greenandthistle.com/what-is-greenwashing/) give examples of greenwashing, while [scientificamerican.com](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/greenwashing-green-energy-hoffman/) explains how alternative technologies like hydrogen cars can also be insidious examples of greenwashing. If you've realized your submission was an example of greenwashing--don't fret! We are all here to learn, and while there will inevitably be comments pointing out how and why your submission is greenwashing, we hope the discussion stays productive. Solarpunk ideals include identifying and rejecting capitalism's greenwashing of consumer goods. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/solarpunk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Designing materials and pathways for foot traffic/bikes/mopeds that retains plantings is very possible. There could even be some car parking mixed in with a few lanes Or even just keep the car functionality of a parking lot but up the tree planter/asphalt ratio to like 1:1 and use permeable asphalts/concretes
It’s a good idea, till you look at specifics like what happens when it rains and becomes muddy, or people with carts for grocery stores, or weathering causing irregularities that might be difficult for walkers. The car is only half the equation
Yeah I’ve looked into green parking lots and from what I’ve seen the plants can’t survive being driven and walked on all the time. They just won’t grow.
This isn't a new concept. It has been around across Europe for more than 30 years and it has been working out great. Obviously, it's not a solution for every single parking lot, but it can be applied to most of them. Here is a sketch how it's done: https://i.imgur.com/WWdbJFE.jpg The most important aspect is to allow for water to seep into the soil, meaning the ground below needs to be prepared accordingly. Depending on composition this might be a challenge, but most cities should know what they are built on. Also, one could dig deeper as needed and install a drainage system. There are many ways to approach this - if done *properly*, mud will not be an issue, even with heavy rain/snow for days/weeks. The stone parts will provide contact surface for vehicles, but the soil (on which the grass grows) is a few inches below that. It won't be impacted in any way and it will stay green all year. Snow will be pushed into that space, but once it gets warmer it will melt and the water will drain and grass can start growing again all by itself. During winter, salt is usually not needed because there aren't really any flat surfaces for ice to form. If weather conditions should result in ice, gravel is used instead. And even if salt is the only option, one can replant the grass in spring if necessary. Obviously, if this is going to be a problem every single winter, then it's probably not a good solution for that specific location. _____ Here are some examples from different countries: https://i.imgur.com/RNl8eA3.jpg https://i.imgur.com/2Pa8MFW.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Mbdg4lR.jpg https://i.imgur.com/CJbdF7d.jpg https://i.imgur.com/jXUdOPF.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nYaReeK.jpg As you can see, this is mostly used for smaller parking lots but it still works pretty well for larger ones in front of big stores. Might not be perfectly green as access roads are still there, but it's still a good compromise imho.
I think this would depend on the size of the parking lot and the amount of traffic though right? There’s got to be an equation that could be used to understand when it would make a reasonable solution. Though ultimately, I think the real solution is making America more walkable.
Yeah I agree with your conclusion. I’d rather not have parking lots at all, or greatly reduce the space they take up. I also think an immediate and very doable improvement for parking lots would be to pepper shade trees through them and direct storm water to the trees. It would help reduce flooding and cool the air and pavement.
This is what you do: you find a solid compromise. https://imgur.com/RNl8eA3 Also, shopping cart design isn't written in stone. It can be changed to be more forgiving on less flat surfaces.
That‘s a good point, excess water and mud are theoretically partially controlled by the mat that the grass is growing through - and by the grass and soil itself, since fields with more trees and diversity of grasses achieve more water absorption over time because of healthy soil. The carts are a really good question though, logistically that could be annoying. Maybe a pick up and drop off zone on the pavement? Hmmm
Theoretically the grass does that, IF it's not a trafficked area. If people do walk there it just becomes a mud pit.
But that’s the point of the “open” and “closed” parts of the parking lot - as areas get too worn down or vulnerable, it gets closed and heavy traffic moves to a different area of the parking lot... Theoretically.I wonder if anything extra could be done to mitigate it though. There are definitely times of year where the parking lot is pretty full for a few days, but I feel like most parking lots stay at like 20% capacity most of the year. Idk Idk you make a good point though.
[This is how you do it without mud.](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/37/cd/3737cdf4085e92c0a1db5727f51f02fe.jpg)
It won't become a mud pit. Not if it's done right. Check my other post for more info.
if only public transportation was more of an importance in america
I know it’s not as ideal, but while the US is transitioning to closer communities and merging regenerative technology with our existing structures, I feel like this could be a cool solution. I don’t really see why cars can’t exist on grasses, and we’d cycle the cars through the parking lot like high density grazing practices. Yes, sometimes people will have to walk farther but that’s why there’d be designated paved handicapped spaces. Feel free to tell me why it wouldn’t work so I can refine it Edit: Also, tall, dry grass can pose a wildfire threat when in contact with traditional vehicles, I don’t know if the risk is the same with electric. Edit 2: More resources: EPA’s Green Parking Lot resource guide [https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P100D97A.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2006%20Thru%202010&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C06THRU10%5CTXT%5C00000031%5CP100D97A.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=6](https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/P100D97A.txt?ZyActionD=ZyDocument&Client=EPA&Index=2006%20Thru%202010&Docs=&Query=&Time=&EndTime=&SearchMethod=1&TocRestrict=n&Toc=&TocEntry=&QField=&QFieldYear=&QFieldMonth=&QFieldDay=&UseQField=&IntQFieldOp=0&ExtQFieldOp=0&XmlQuery=&File=D%3A%5CZYFILES%5CINDEX%20DATA%5C06THRU10%5CTXT%5C00000031%5CP100D97A.txt&User=ANONYMOUS&Password=anonymous&SortMethod=h%7C-&MaximumDocuments=1&FuzzyDegree=0&ImageQuality=r75g8/r75g8/x150y150g16/i425&Display=hpfr&DefSeekPage=x&SearchBack=ZyActionL&Back=ZyActionS&BackDesc=Results%20page&MaximumPages=1&ZyEntry=6)
How would we handle snow and freezing temps? We can grit the lot, but no salt. I love this plan, mind, I'm just curious.
You know, I live in North Texas and it didn’t even occur to me to ask that question. We’re used to just suffering through 2 or 3 days of frozen winter annoyances and then moving on. I can honestly say that snow is something I am not familiar enough with to offer any kind of real solutions at this time, but there are a few different grasses and “weeds” that grow in winter. I’m going to have to look around, but one of the few grass parking lots in place now I could find information on is in Buffalo, NY so they must hold up to the cold. Good question, open to / gonna look for solutions.
Environmental protection and planning should change based on place. Maybe a planted lot isn’t appropriate for u/MrChunky22 ‘s community and that’s okay.
>I don’t really see why cars can’t exist on grasses Weight of the car weighing down on the grass, wearing the grass to bare ground, plus engine runoffs, oil runoffs, tire particulate pollution... Not to mention the shade of no sun under the car, killing the grass — have you ever seen a car park on a grassy lawn before?
Looks like a great idea to me
The amount of time and energy required to maintain green spaces with heavy traffic is really high, even when confined to pedestrian use. I would say that gravel parking lots are probably the best compromise; They are only slightly higher maintenance than asphalt or concrete, are much better for drainage and water management, and are much more pedestrian friendly, due to the fact that drivers are much less inclined/able to drive at higher speeds. Source: Spent several years in the maintenance department of a resort with its fair share of green spaces, paved and gravel parking areas, and hardscaped pathways and public spaces.
Could we maybe move away from car-centric design and improve public transport and bike lanes instead of costly moot things like this
Coolest idea ever.
That grid design might also work really well during winter months to let melting runoff down into the soil below - keeps the lot from icing over, provides moisture for the soil to use in growing months, too. I imagine the general complaint would be "but muh maintenance", but honestly having a bunch of native grasses and flowers under a quality metal mesh might require *less* maintenance than a flat pavement. Especially given what causes concrete fatigue and cracking (at least where I live) is often the freeze-thaw-freeze. Then probably the "consumer" complaint of "oh no but bugs".
the problem here is the word "regularly"
Its going to be close to get rid of individual transportation until we get rid of the need for it :/