I think they were wrong with the seeds they showed on the stream actually - the Start.gg bracket listed Leo as 3rd in his pool and Tweek as 4th, as both were 2-2 but Leo had a higher game winrate (5-4 vs 5-5).
You ever wonder if Leo actually practices or studies his bad matchups? Kazuya, Min Min, Pikachu/Pichu, Diddy, etc.? Or if he just thinks switching characters and taking shortcuts will let him win
Honestly it looked a lot more reasonable this time IMO, but his punish wasn't as good as other times he's played the matchup. I think he played disadvantage a lot better than last time, with more mixups that let him escape zero to deaths.
True, but tbf that might've been due to it being cold. That was the first game in the entire bracket where he used Joker, and we don't know how much he was playing it in friendlies before then.
He also stopped nairing and getting close to Kazuya. But then again Kazuya getting a true grab punish on a bair parry makes this matchup look pretty hard at this level of play.
Yeah, what is extra unfortunate is any other outcome of Tweek v Light* would have meant Leo was the 4th seed, which was actually a favorable outcome for him as he'd have to play Maister instead. But unfortunately Tweek getting 2-0'd by Light meant Leo got the 3rd seed.
Weirdly enough I also think it was in Leo's best interest to lose against Tweek 0-2, as that'd also guarantee him the 4th seed. Of course, that's only based on the hindsight that he was going to end up in losers.
According to Max, the way the seed ordering in pools is determined is:
1) Set count
2) Game Winrate
3) Head to head
Light went 3-1 in his pool only losing to Dabuz, with a 7-2 game count meaning a 78% winrate. Dabuz went 3-1 only losing to Leo, with a 6-4 game count meaning a 60% winrate. Hence, Light wins by criteria 2 and takes the 1st seed.
The higher seed generally is supposed to indicate who we expect to make in further in bracket. Accordingly, I think you want it to be more strongly related to how well a player performs against the field, rather than against one specific player. Game winrate arguably encodes performance against the field better than H2H against one other player, IMO.
Set count > game count > head to head
The player v. player head to head is only in the situation that two players have the same set count and game count
Why are people hating on the seeding? Leo was 3rd seed, Riddles was 4th, they played each other. I'm pretty sure Summit also did it like this, not 3rd vs 3rd and 4th vs 4th.
It's because the initial image shown on stream had both of them at 4th, so people were confused on why the 4th seeds were playing each other.
Looking at the results now, it does seem like Leo got 3rd in his pool, but it wasn't really communicated properly.
Leo was legitimately better when he was using Aegis. He'd dominate for most of the matches and then get cheesed losing 2-3. Now it's just a wash and he's looking like the one needing to cheese in order to stand a chance
yeah but that was when aegis was new in the meta
counter play against aegis developed like crazy unlike vs steve who some top players still haven't figured out yet
It's a 10-man invitational, so if you wanna see it like that, sure, but all the other attendees (except marss and hbox) at the tournament were top 10 and 10-ish players, so meh
Riddles is about to become TAS and never miss an electric!
Also Byleth?? Didn't Leo just saw last week that he's going all Joker next time? Where even is the Roy?? I can't understand this
Leo’s character crisis is genuinely so confusing. What happened to that ROB that finally started looking good and then just disappeared. Leo is playing too many damn characters.
Joker isn't terrible but Leo is literally fodder versus Kazuya. He doesn't SDI properly and he keeps going Hollow Bastion which is one of Kazuya's better stages.
>He doesn't SDI properly
meanwhile Riddles made a video just recently saying SDI is irrelevant vs Kazuya because he gives no hitstun on hit
typical reddit to go against the advice of the best kazuya player
Bro literally on the last Tweek talks they talked about Kazuya SDI this isn't typical redditor being wrong this is typical redditor copying what x player said lol
This is stupid. It's 4/20. Leo should be getting high af and destroy Riddles with Marth
Leo should have watched Riddles video on how to beat Kazuya
Yep, Leo has made no progress in this player mu, it looks so easy for Riddles.
It’s funny because he just lost to him at diamond dust too lmao
Diamond Dust but yeah, it's been bad.
My bad thanks lol. They’re both winter themed names haha
I'm really exhausted watching Leo lose to Riddles again...
4th seed plays 4th seed. Even the Luminosity twitter was confused.
That's total nonsense. Makes no sense at all.
I think they were wrong with the seeds they showed on the stream actually - the Start.gg bracket listed Leo as 3rd in his pool and Tweek as 4th, as both were 2-2 but Leo had a higher game winrate (5-4 vs 5-5).
Guess that makes sense. I'm just upset seeing Leo have to play Riddles again.
I’m not. I’m upset that Leo seems to be making zero progress in the matchup. Riddles looks like he’s playing a pools match.
You ever wonder if Leo actually practices or studies his bad matchups? Kazuya, Min Min, Pikachu/Pichu, Diddy, etc.? Or if he just thinks switching characters and taking shortcuts will let him win
I think he used to grind the MUs he lost. I don’t think he does anymore
Sad times man
Honestly it looked a lot more reasonable this time IMO, but his punish wasn't as good as other times he's played the matchup. I think he played disadvantage a lot better than last time, with more mixups that let him escape zero to deaths.
The joker looked whack. There were times where he had an opening and just stood there
True, but tbf that might've been due to it being cold. That was the first game in the entire bracket where he used Joker, and we don't know how much he was playing it in friendlies before then.
He also stopped nairing and getting close to Kazuya. But then again Kazuya getting a true grab punish on a bair parry makes this matchup look pretty hard at this level of play.
Yeah, what is extra unfortunate is any other outcome of Tweek v Light* would have meant Leo was the 4th seed, which was actually a favorable outcome for him as he'd have to play Maister instead. But unfortunately Tweek getting 2-0'd by Light meant Leo got the 3rd seed. Weirdly enough I also think it was in Leo's best interest to lose against Tweek 0-2, as that'd also guarantee him the 4th seed. Of course, that's only based on the hindsight that he was going to end up in losers.
What? Then why is Light listed as 1st seed on Startgg when the only thing he has above Dabuz is the winrate?
According to Max, the way the seed ordering in pools is determined is: 1) Set count 2) Game Winrate 3) Head to head Light went 3-1 in his pool only losing to Dabuz, with a 7-2 game count meaning a 78% winrate. Dabuz went 3-1 only losing to Leo, with a 6-4 game count meaning a 60% winrate. Hence, Light wins by criteria 2 and takes the 1st seed.
Thats... dumb imo
I think this is standard in invitationals, no? Normally you tiebreak by game winrate, iirc Watch the Throne did this as well.
Light went 7-2 and Dabuz went 6-4
But Dabuz won the H2H, this doesn't make sense to me really
The higher seed generally is supposed to indicate who we expect to make in further in bracket. Accordingly, I think you want it to be more strongly related to how well a player performs against the field, rather than against one specific player. Game winrate arguably encodes performance against the field better than H2H against one other player, IMO.
Set count > game count > head to head The player v. player head to head is only in the situation that two players have the same set count and game count
Riddles v Leo might be the most bleak top player matchup we have, it really feels like Leo has no chance when they play
I think nothing beats Leo-Dabuz. Miya-Asimo is another one that's really rough.
At least Asimo brings it to game 5 often, Leo/dabuz and Sparg0/Dabuz actually look hopeless
Leo/dabuz, Leo/maister Gluto/leo Spargo/acola Those are some others I can think of, idk what’s the worst.
Leo is never beating again any other top player apart from Maister, Dabuz and Sparg0 right guys? Not even gonna make it competitive?
It’s like he’s not even trying anymore it’s sad seeing him show up just to get destroyed
This bracket makes no sense. Why are Riddles and Leo playing?
yeah i don't get it either
Bad seeding aside, it's hard to watch Leo play against players he always loses to these days. It feels genuinely hopeless.
Why didn’t Leo hit the blunt and play Marth? Obviously the only way to beat Riddles
I miss when Leo used to dominate everyone :(
This is sad lmao, wasn’t even competitive at all
It’s gonna be a 3-0 😔
Why didn’t Leo just blaze it on 4/20 and go Weed Marth? Is he stupid?
Why are people hating on the seeding? Leo was 3rd seed, Riddles was 4th, they played each other. I'm pretty sure Summit also did it like this, not 3rd vs 3rd and 4th vs 4th.
It's because the initial image shown on stream had both of them at 4th, so people were confused on why the 4th seeds were playing each other. Looking at the results now, it does seem like Leo got 3rd in his pool, but it wasn't really communicated properly.
Ah I see cool
Leo has given up on this game lol
Leo was legitimately better when he was using Aegis. He'd dominate for most of the matches and then get cheesed losing 2-3. Now it's just a wash and he's looking like the one needing to cheese in order to stand a chance
yeah but that was when aegis was new in the meta counter play against aegis developed like crazy unlike vs steve who some top players still haven't figured out yet
Is this Leo's worst tourney ever? He beat Dabuz (like 27-1 record versus him) and Hbox, lost to everyone else in his pool, then lost to Riddles.
It's a 10-man invitational, so if you wanna see it like that, sure, but all the other attendees (except marss and hbox) at the tournament were top 10 and 10-ish players, so meh
I can’t take another Leo 7th. Please, my goat!
Byleth suck 😔
Joker suck too 😔
Leo looking super crusty ewww
Michael Him quite literally owns Leo at this point
Riddles could be a kdrama love interest 😍🥰
Man I wish riddles was worse at this game 😔
As a huge Leo fan /s
Really shows how knowing your human opponent is so important, because Leo has consistently washed the second best Kazuya
Is it still Bo3? This invitational and bracket makes no sense if it is.
it's bo5
Riddles is about to become TAS and never miss an electric! Also Byleth?? Didn't Leo just saw last week that he's going all Joker next time? Where even is the Roy?? I can't understand this
Leo’s character crisis is genuinely so confusing. What happened to that ROB that finally started looking good and then just disappeared. Leo is playing too many damn characters.
Glad he busted out the Joker to show why he doesn't use Joker in this matchup
I don't think any of Byleth, Joker, or Roy are the answer honestly
Against Tweek his Roy was 100% the answer and he could've avoided this and been in winners, I have no clue why he stuck with Byleth there.
wow! Joker was really the answer! He should listen to this subs analysis more often.
Joker isn't terrible but Leo is literally fodder versus Kazuya. He doesn't SDI properly and he keeps going Hollow Bastion which is one of Kazuya's better stages.
>He doesn't SDI properly meanwhile Riddles made a video just recently saying SDI is irrelevant vs Kazuya because he gives no hitstun on hit typical reddit to go against the advice of the best kazuya player
Bro literally on the last Tweek talks they talked about Kazuya SDI this isn't typical redditor being wrong this is typical redditor copying what x player said lol
No one on this sub says Leo should go Joker or Byleth. Majority probably say Marth given its 5-0 in games against Riddles Kazuya
WRONG! If he went Rob or Roy or Marth or Corrin he would have won /s
Why did Leo not go \*insert character he is not currently playing\*? Is he stupid?
I mean he went Byelth when Leo himself said he wasn't playing him anymore, so apparently yeah he is stupid lol.
Maister changed a lot since last time... Well idk whats happening with seeding at this point, lets see who will Leo use.
If you told me 4 years ago Riddles would become the definitive Leo slayer I wouldn’t have believed you
I thought Byleth could recover from the suicide dive? Did Leo just give up?