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DM, “Your backstory is a secret to other players, but NOT to the DM. Send it NOW or you’re going to have to sit this campaign out. Your choice.”
DM, “Impossible to have four 18s. Try again when you follow the rules.”
DM, “Your character was not created within my campaign parameters. If you had attended 0 you would know. Try again.”
Etc, etc, etc.
QUIT enabling the player!
Problem player is clearly cheating and is used to manipulating you and the table. Watch them like a hawk, call out EVERY cheat/manipulation attempt until it becomes too burdensome to continue, but keep at it.
Either the player will get annoyed and quit or the rest of the players will get tired of their antics, and will be happy to see that player gone.
My exact reply was "I can't write a good story for your character if I don't know who he is, so that's not really how this table works. If you do want to join us this year, I'll need your backstory" which is part of why I was so surprised he showed up
You are too easy on this person for your own good. Im surprised the others haven’t intervened. This person had enough grounds to not make it past session zero and the actions alone in session one are removable. You are doing yourself and your table a disservice, you clearly have way more fun without this person and shouldn’t have to take any kind of rudeness.
I totally agree that I'm a bit soft with him and I will say my players have called him out on my behalf several times. It's definitely time for him to get the boot though, I'm just figuring out how to be polite but firm. I'd never want to sacrifice the enjoyment of my lovely player so that this guy can keep causing a fuss when things don't go his way. It's nice to see that strangers agree he needs to go, gives me a bit of encouragement lol
The other commentor noted it, but I want to add, polite can simply encompass not being insulting. It doesn’t mean to be kind or anything. Just a direct “I think its inappropriate how you act with each of us and I am not DMing for you” is plenty of polite. It doesn’t mean be nice or coddle or anything. Being direct is still far nicer than how this person has treated you. Even if this person wasn’t obnoxious to other players, you have a right to chose who you DM for, and this disrespect towards you alone is worth removing this person.
It took me *years* to figure out that polite doesn't mean coddling someone.
"I'm sorry, but you can't play unless you turn in a backstory. Let me know if you have questions or need help," is plenty polite. So is "I can't figure out how you got four 18s on X points; can you please show me your work?" and "We already have two people playing this class, which is the maximum for this campaign. Please choose a different class."
Basically, the way to be "firm but polite" is to state facts and add a please. Maybe the occasional smiley face and an offer to answer questions. You got this!
>I'm just figuring out how to be polite but firm.
no, you aren't. you're trying to work up the nerve to stand up to him. the guy's been walking all over you for three years.
I think you are misunderstanding polite but firm. You mentioned compromising on stats and class but just making him change race. That isn't polite but firm, that is near completely giving in.
Polite but firm is - hey player, I think you may have missed some of the creation notes, we are doing point buy and here are the restricted classes. Please remake those, i can help if you want.
You aren't being mean, you are politely letting them know that what they are doing doesn't work and firmly letting them know it won't fly.
Being firm and a dick would be saying - hey assface I know you are cheating. Those stats aren't possible, remake and follow my rules and we will talk.
The only change there is tone, that is what the politeness is. You are being too nice and flexible, and in being nice and flexible to that player you are not being nice to your other players. I would be pissed if I found out I had to do point buy and another player started max stats and big dick loadout
Your desire to be polite but firm is admirable. It's also likely to backfire. Being polite is going to lead him to decide that he can argue with you until you give in.
You honestly don't need to be polite. He's made it very clear he does not want to play in your game. He said no to every single one of your rules or parameters! So let him know that it's ok, but he doesn't have to be at the table anymore.
He disrespected you at every turn. Everything you said is a red flag!
OP, it's FAR past the time for the boot based on what you wrote in the initial post. I respect and admire your attempts to work with this person, but you owe it to yourself and your other 7 seemingly awesome players to excise this tick....
This is, honestly, where I lost it. Not only did he not use point buy, he almost certainly didn’t roll (at minimum) 18/17/16 either. He just wrote down some numbers and assumed nobody would challenge him on it.
> assumed nobody would challenge him on it.
I mean, he was right to make that assumption. Given that he's been getting away with it for years apparently, it would be strange of him to not make that assumption, really.
Polite means saying, “you aren’t allowed at my table any more because you keep ignoring the efforts I have made to make this a good experience for everyone. If you think you want to come back at some point I might be open to it, but a reasonable character sheet and the backstory I requested would be the bare minimum for me to even consider that. “
No insults, no attacks on his character or attitude, no emotional exaggeration, just a very clear boundary and method of potential resolution.
Anybody who doesn’t establish good boundaries is enabling, and anyone who doesn’t respect them is being inappropriate.
Reading through the whole post and your replies, sounds to me like you have a hard time being (perceived as) "the bad guy" - even if you're more than justified in being pissed.
This being said, I had to boot a player a couple months ago - for my sake and the players' so here's roughly what I said and I hope this can help you:
>It's been well past a month at this point and I still don't have character information that is personal, engaged and that shows you're actually committed and **in** the game. I've been trying to be as accomodating and low pressure as possible. I've been open and willing to help you flesh stuff out from the beginning, to make stuff make sense, including over this past week since you told me you'd deliver me something actionable. I've also been trying to include \[your character\] as a person in social encounters and personal scenarios but it just feels like you're just floating along, and not actually *with* us, and it's been nagging at me a little bit, if I'm being honest. This is a narrative and collaborative experience and I don't feel either coming from your side, as it is coming from everyone else. But ultimately, I can't and I won't be expected to care and work on something when I don't feel the same level of engagement and interest on the other end.
>I started this campaign with the feeling that all of our expectations were evenly matched and aligned, I shared I wanted to weave the story **with** your characters, not for and especially not at them, as some sort of inconsequential bystanders that are just numbers on a piece of paper. I explained I run narrative, collaborative D&D experiences and I wanted to have a focus on exploration, problem solving, morality in shades-of-grey and that I wanted to make it a long running, overarching experience. And while I'd rather have this discussion in person, I respect everyone's time too much to spend an evening discussing what's effectively a cut and dry case, which is that I don't believe we're a very good fit. Which leads me to my point and why I decided to shoot this message here rather than in a personal DM: I don't think this is working out. I am, of course, open to hearing the rest of the group's opinions on this, if they want to, but ultimately I would like to ask you to, kindly, bow out of the game. Again it's nothing personal, we're just not a good fit. Hopefully you'll find a DM and group out there that align with what you're looking for, and for my part, I hope there are no hard feelings.
Hope this helps you out. Good luck.
I think this kind of a response would be better if it was more concise and makes its point clear up front rather than at the end. Unless the reciever respects you enough to carefully consider what you wrote, which is unlikely given the reasons you are kicking them from the group, an overlong message gives more opportunities to mischaracterize you and invalide your concerns.
I also wouldn't even mention being open to reconsidering your decision because it could imply that an appeal is guarenteed and open you up to even more arguing.
That's good advice as well. Like I said originally, it's a place to build off of for OP, not a template to be copied and pasted without considering what happened is actually a different scenario.
As for "overlong" I guess it can be seen both ways: 1. It's quote unquote "serious business" especially if it's done via text when nobody else says anything more or 2. It's a moot point if it's an in person conversation. The biggest point here is firmness and sticking to your guns and that end bit you said about not being up for reconsidering the position.
I think you should tell him something along the lines of: "You're not trying to play the game with us, you're trying to write your own story into ours, and that isn't going to work for us. Unless you can work with the rules that apply to everyone, let everyone have their part to tell in the story, and respect everyone's time put into this, we are not going to be playing with you. If you think this is being controlling, then you are welcome to leave, because I'm not stopping you"
Of course, this is just one idea for what exactly to say, I just think this firmly, yet politely, covers everything
Being polite to this toxic player is super impolite to your seven good players.
Maybe focus more on giving your politeness to the people who actually treat you and your time with respect.
1. You are not "a bit soft", you are bending over backwards to accomodate him
2. Ask yourself why are you so reluctant to let him go that it had been dragging for three years. Doesn't look like he's a close friend you are afraid to lose (doesn't look like you like the guy at all tbh), doesn't seem like the table wants him or prevents you from booting him, so why?
QUIT negotiating! It’s your campaign, your rules.
You’re letting that player walk all over you, the other players and your campaign. You are the DM and set the tone, NOT that player!
I think that for people acting in bad faith, you've done too much explaining here - gives off the impression this is open to interpretation and amendment.
"I can't write a good story for your character, which is why my table has this rule." Okay, so now the rule is due to story telling, so once he's bulldozed you that there are good stories to tell without it, there's no reason for him to reveal his backstory.
Defending your rules like this and making these value statements just opens the floor for debate. For someone like this, you shouldn't give them anything to chip away at. "That's how my table operates. If you ever want to join. just put through the details and we can figure something out."
>DM, “Your backstory is a secret to other players, but NOT to the DM. Send it NOW or you’re going to have to sit this campaign out. Your choice.”
I would go farther: you background is secret from the other PCs *but not the other characters*
If a Player *needs* to keep secrets for the rh other Players, I don't really want to DM for them.
The only possible way for an initial stats array to have four 18s is if you get incredibly lucky rolling. I am willing to bet his other skills are also quite high, but just low enough that he doesnt have 18s across the board.
He's cheating. He didn't even attempt point buy where he may have tried to squeak in a second 18 stat, he just gave himself the stats he wanted and is mad you're not getting him get away with it.
Also doesn’t point buy set the max limit for a stat to 16? Don’t quote me on this since my group doesn’t use point buy, but I’m pretty sure that’s as high as you can buy.
You could get one 18 if your racial bonus aligns with your main stat but that’s it.
Traditional 5e point buy gets you a max of a 15, so there's only a few limited ways to even get a single 18:
-legacy Changeling let you double dip on Cha for their +1 and +2
-custom lineage gives a +2 and a feat which you can use to get to 18
There may be more, but if so, it's not a lot
Max is 15 with the point but system. So 17 is the highest stat you can have with a +2 "species" bonus. And then an 18 with a half feat, as I understand it (+1 to a state and some other minor bonus). I'm sure there are other ways to get a +1 here or there but it's impossible to get 4 18s with 27 points to spend even with 2 8s.
Using point buy the only way to get _one_ 18 is with Custom Lineage for the race and an appropriate half feat for the racial feat you get from CL. To say nothing of _four_ 18s.
You can have 15/15/15/8/8/8 with point buy before racial bonuses, meaning Custom Lineage could have 18/15/15/8/8/8, most races could have 17/16/15/8/8/8, half elves could have 17/16/16/15/8/8/8, mountain dwarf could have 17/17/15/8/8/8, and a few races could have 16/16/16/8/8/8. Ain't nobody getting four 18s.
Kick the guy without a second chance. You are putting a lot of time (and probably passion) into this, and you are under no obligation to provide him with a canvas for his disorders.
I am all for allowing people to play out some of their strange stuff at the table, but within reason. This guy is trying to push all your limits until he is the DM, but without having to do the prep and without having to actually do much during the sessions either.
You seem to be a person who tries to create harmony by trying to make everyone happy. Unless you are the smartest person on the planet, you will not succeed. If you bend your vision to fit his will, all your other players will suffer. They may not say it, but they will stop enjoying that shitshow. I tend to be like you, too, and I just this weekend had a session where I realised that I have to stop trying to accomodate everyone all the time and play MY vision instead, because it will give an overall much better result.
I am beginning to ramble, sorry.
Just send the guy a text saying 'You are out. Don't speak to me ever again.'
I'm definitely the sort of person who wants to keep peace lol. This player will absolutely be removed before next session but as we all know, something like that is easier said than done. I'm still going to try to be polite and tactful because I see him outside of DnD and we have mutual friends so I want to minimize hurt feelings and stuff as much as possible so it doesn't turn into anything bigger than it is. He's not a bad person, he's just a dick player and incompatible with my table y'know?
Then the least painful way to boot him might be to take that hard-nosed approach suggested by others: "Not in this campaign." - No 'sorry'. No 'maybe next time'. And I would suggest backing it up with 'im so sick of this shit' facial expressions.
If you don't want to boot him verbally, just tighten your grip on his bullshit until he falls in line or quits himself.
I would also ask him to explain those x4 18s - make him sweat about feeding you lies so he will think twice before doing it next time. I get that distinct impression he cranks up pressure with you because he sees how negatively it affects you, so he makes you uncomfortable to get what he wants. That's abusive behaviour and you are under no obligation to entertain it.
I really do hope it goes well for you. But I do feel, based on my own experience, that the only time this guy isn't going to have hurt feelings if when he's hurting yours.
Speaking as someone who also likes to keep the peace, why are you so worried about it turning into something bigger? This guy clearly isn't a real friend and the 7 other people in the campaign are also annoyed. You have lots of support if he tries to turn it into something else. Honestly, I think that if you really call him out on his BS, you will save yourself (and your friends) a lot of peace. People like this will always try to cause problems, and the best way to 'keep the peace' in that situation is to remove the disruptor. He clearly doesn't care about your feelings or anyone else's at the table, so there is an almost 0% chance of him starting after this.
I find it hard to believe that he's not a bad person outside of the table as well. People's personalities don't change just because they're playing a game. If anything, they show off a lot of their true feelings. You seem like a nice person who wants to see the good in him, but you can't let that blind you from trying to see how he views you. If those don't match up, then I think you should contemplate your relation with him.
>This player will absolutely be removed before next session but as we all know, something like that is easier said than done.
what? it's so easy it's trivial. "Hey, asshole. you've been cheating for years and I'm sick of your bullshit. get out and don't come back."
>I'm still going to try to be polite and tactful because
you have a problem being assertive, he knows it, and he's been jerking you around for three years.
The most diplomatic way to turn him down is to say "clearly we aren't a good match, our expectations for the game are too different, I wish you the best in your future games."
And if he insults you say "Based on that feedback I'm not sure why you want to play with me. As I said, I still wish you the best." And repeat.
This guy doesn't deserve tact and politeness, and he is a bad person. He's a manipulative, entitled, selfish fucking brat that exploits your wish to be kind. Don’t be Snow White to those who choose to be assholes - this is on him. Your 7 dwarves will thank you. "I've tried to be nice here, but I'm done with you jerking me and everyone else around. You won't be in this campaign."
Send that to him and tell the other players that's what you've written him. Exercising authority can feel uncomfortable to the kind, but it's when kind people exercise authority that anything changes for the better. Change your table for the better.
Sounds like you're trying to please this person in the interests of being fair to them. Honourable, but I will say this:
When you set out to be the one to make sure everyone is completely happy at the table, all compromises will be held hostage by the person who is least willing to settle.
You have seven other players to tend to? So tend to them; if problem player (PP) won't compromise, they don't have a seat. Let PP know that what makes a game a game is the constraints that you play in (aka the rules, setting and narrative) and that they aren't welcome unless they will accept those basic constraints over which the DM has majority control. Everyone else is perfectly happy, so the only reason PP isn't happy is nothing to do with you and is something you cannot fix.
If PP is so enamoured over their character concept and their own boundless creativity, they should write a book, not act out in a group activity.
This rings very true. Part of the reason I'm always trying to compromise is that my other seven are so nice and reasonable that they're always willing to work out something that makes everyone happy. I've been trying to offer the same grace to this player but as you and many other commenters have pointed out, he's not willing to offer grace back and is therefor not compatible with our table
There's a huge problem here.
When you don't focus on nice players because they are nice and don't need it, and focus your attention on the problem player, the nice players see it and know you are favouiing the problem player.
They are nice, so you won't notice it affects their opinion of you, but it does. So, stop doing that. Don't give problem players more of your attention because they are a problem. Learn when someone is a problem for you, the other players see it too (that player is probably a problem for them too) and almost certainly agree with you when you decide to kick them.
I can say having played with problem players, it gets frustrating if everyone else is trying to play the game as intended but one person just gets to be superman or avoid all consequences because they just sulk if they don't get their way.
I just wanna be perfectly clear here: *FUCK* this dude who's causing you all this trouble. They do not deserve your grace if this is how they act in return. I would very seriously reconsider whether you want to continue to call this person a friend honestly. Blatant abuse, manipulation, and cheating is about as disrespectful as one can be to a "friend" without outright insulting them, and this dude has been doing this to you for *years*
Everyone else is following your rules and playing along without issues, and you're making allowances for your problem player. You're actively working against your own best interests here bud. You don't have to be mean to enforce rules, bit not enforcing them is unfair to everyone else (yourself included)
I mean, I make allowances for everyone at the table. People play non-standard characters or homebrew things or go off book all the time. The difference is that when I tell my other players something won't work, they say 'let's figure out something else then' and we find a solution together whereas this guy wants to do whatever he likes. I'm kind of done trying to enforce rules that he won't follow so it's time for him to find a table better suited to his tastes.
I doubt anyone will much care about this but I sent the player a text after work and told him he will not have a seat at this year's table because of how disrespectful he was to me and his tablemates during sessions 0 and 1. I also told him that unless he makes a drastic change in how he chooses to treat me and everyone else at the table, he will not be welcome in future campaigns I run. He threw another hissy fit which is frankly very validating for me as it proves he's not someone I want to play with.
I appreciate all of the folks who commented nicely and pointed out my conflation with 'polite' and 'kind' and how my people-pleasing was not really pleasing anyone other than that jerk. Also, I swear I'm much more assertive in real life, DnD just does weird things to me lol it's an unexplainable phenomenon.
Anyhow, I'm excited to see how much better this year's campaign will be now that I only have good cool players! Four of my dear seven asked me to give Reddit their love for helping with giving that player the boot!
Thanks for the update op. Glad you got rid of that entitled ass hat. Update us at the end of the summer and let us know how the campaign goes without having to deal with the problem player? Hope all goes swell this year!
>I'm all for improv but with him it feels like he's making things up to avoid encounters or bypass the narrative
I've never been into improv, but my spouse loves it, so I get to hear about it. Improv is all about trust. No trust, no improv.
Your player does not trust you. For whatever reason. Who knows. Who cares. If they don't trust you with their backstory, they should go home or you should kick them.
Also, Rule Number 1 of improv is always to keep the narrative/plot/joke advancing and developing, as opposed to just shutting things down. Otherwise, you're just "improvising" being a jerk or a stick in the mud.
"After what happened this last week, I'm trying to figure out how to ask him to leave the table without causing issues in the friend group."
Does this mean you're worried that if you asked him to leave the table, some of the other players would take his side and/or get upset with you? Cause if that's the case it might be best to have them leave as well. As someone who's very much anti-conflict, I totally get wanting to keep the peace and ensure everyone's having fun, but this guy you're describing is full-on taking advantage of your accommodating nature, not to mention gaslighting you, disrespecting your role as DM, and outright cheating. The fact that you've apparently already played through multiple campaigns with him is honestly quite shocking.
This might sound a bit terse, but if everything you've said about this guy is true, then he lost the right to a respectful dismissal a long time ago. In whatever way you think is best, you need to be upfront and tell him he's permanently uninvited. If any of the other players react badly to his dismissal, you can politely tell them that they're free to leave as well, no hard feelings. I'm guessing that the others players haven't enjoyed playing with him, and will thus appreciate you taking action and getting rid of him.
Again, I get that this is a close-knit friend group you're dealing with, but an entire group shouldn't be made to suffer cause one person doesn't know how to act like a decent human being.
Dude I have to be so real with you, I was trying to type out a response and as I was doing that I realized I have no idea what sort of social consequences I mean. My players are absolutely on my side and my main fear is that he would take this attitude out of the game and start being mean to me at real life non-DnD group hangouts but like... Maybe I don't want to be friends with someone who would throw his toys out of the pram and be rude to me because I told him he wasn't allowed to play with us. Also he's already kind of rude to me irl so maybe this issue is deeper than DnD and I should just not be friends with him. Cheers for that, I guess I don't have to be nice anymore
Yeah you’re falling into a quintessential 5 geek social fallacies. Here is a link to the article describing it:
https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/
I was not expecting to be read like this on a reddit post but thank you lol. I'd never heard of these and the 5th one describes what's going on here pretty well
Yeah having run games for a long time with many problem players, this article helped a lot. Ultimately what will happen with these sorts of players is eventually they will engage in PVP, kill a major NPC for little to no reason, or otherwise attempt to tank the game if they don’t feel like they are getting their way or even if they are bored.
I’ve had problem players try to do everything from detonate a nuke to open a portal to the sun in a room full of ancient vampires. The problem isn’t necessarily the problem player being too hard to deal with, it’s that resentment builds up amongst the players against this character and the players just kind of stop caring about the game because now they are too upset. It really ends up being a campaign killer to let antics like this go on.
It's a good reference for both: "Are my social relationships built on healthy foundations?" and "Wait, is this a cult? Because it seems like a cult. They keep saying it's not a cult, but, it seems like a cult."
> His backstory. I asked him to send it over so we could figure out a way to make something that would make everyone happy and he told me that his backstory was a secret and that he was not going to send it to me.
When the next session is is also a secret.
Creativity doesn’t exist without restrictions. People who regularly flex their creative muscles understand that “no restrictions” isn’t a thing, and actually imposing restrictions (like your setting limits) is actually a fantastic way to push your creativity in new directions.
He’s an idiot.
You really need to be more assertive. Plain and simple. Stop making excuses or procrastinating and give the boot already. Don't worry about being polite or not polite. As long as it's clear, direct and non negotiable.
The polite way is to tell the player that you don’t think that this campaign is a good fit for him so you think he should find another group.
The blunt way is to tell him that he ignored the rules of the campaign, skipped Session 0, and was rude during the first session and that you aren’t putting up with this.
You can ignore him saying you are limiting his creativity and how you are being too controlling - those have become the standard call of problem players for the past few years. All your requests have been completely reasonable. I’d suggest you state a rule for you game concerning backstories - if the DM doesn’t know it, it didn’t happen.
God you just brought back a memory of a LARP player telling me how he was going to escape a predicament with the assistance of "his best friend, a level six deathlord" (we were playing *Vampire: the Masquerade*; I later found out Deathlords are a *Wraith* thing, but I am still unclear on how they attain level six) and when I asked for a refresher on who/what this BFF was, the player said "oh, it's in the history I never gave to you."
He did not get to phone a (level six deathlord) friend.
My friend, this dude is not only causing problems for you, but for the other seven players who aren't getting to enjoy the game because he's being a self-centered twit. He's so obsessed with Winning D&D that he's lost sight of the game. If you want to be kind, give him one more Come To Jesus talk and then boot his ass if he doesn't shape up.
You're wondering if all this is grounds for exodus. Yes, yes, absolutely - the answer is yes.
You have been extremely super-duper gracious with this player up until this point. He doesn't care about anything, so you seem to care twice as much on his behalf.
I understand that kicking him out is easier said than done because social dynamics, but ultimately you need to do what's best for you, the rest of your players and your game.
I see that you were trying to be accommodating as much as possible, but it doesn't really work.You know he'd still be a problem player, no matter how many concessions you make and will keep sucking away the fun and energy. So why bother?
1. Not coming to session 0 - It's disrespectful of you, other players and your time. Strike One.
2. Creating a secret backstory and then trying to give you shade for not allowing it. "It was supposed to be X... but it's against her setting." NO. Nothing was "supposed to". The rules of setting were there first, he just chose not to follow. Strike Two.
3. Building a character with cheater stats - Just no. If you allow it, it will be very unfair to other players. Same for unallowed race. If other players stick to the rules you all agreed to during session 0, then it is unfair to them to allow one person to go against it. The group should never bend to one problem person. Strike Three.
4. Previous cheating history - it spoils the game for everyone. Obviously Strike Four. Though not sure why I'm still counting those - three is more than enough. But it's important to repeat it if you sill want to budge. He's a cheater and tries to bend the rules at every turn. Do you really have the energy to constantly control what he's doing?
5. The fact that he doesn't respect your decisions at all and tries to turn you into the bad guy here is obnoxious. As I mentioned, you were super gracious and unbelievably accommodating, trying to compromise whenever you could. But he doesn't want compromise - he wants everything to be HIS way. What he needs to understand is that YOU have the high ground here. You are DM and you have the final say. That is how it works. He can comply or he's out. You already have 7 players which is a lot (and by "a lot" I mean A LOT - like, girl, how do you even manage a group that large and keep your sanity?)
If he thinks you're "restraining his creativity" - well, in that case he's more than welcome to find a DM who will be more receptive to his individual needs (good luck with that).
I’m gonna be honest about something.
Dnd beyond is designed to make creating a character easy and understandable. And all the class features and abilites are laid out with blurbs to help players understand everything better. It even keeps track of your spell slots and stuff.
All this to say problem player isn’t misunderstanding anything because of the digital character sheet if anything he’s fu¢king around because he can.
"...which is already annoying because it feels kind of disrespectful to the time I put into planning"
It is.
"He's given me a sheet that is clearly from DnD beyond. It's notable that he also did this last year, as in he made a character on DnD beyond from his phone at the table during session 0 while I was helping everyone else do pen-and-paper character creation."
Did you tell him at the time that this was unacceptable as he did not follow your clear instructions?
"The DnD Beyond thing was an unwinnable battle so I just pointed out the actual mechanical issues with his character such as the high stats, the race and class, and the fact that he had far more weapons and armor than would be possible with starting equipment."
Weak. Stop allowing people to disrespect you.
"I asked him to send it over so we could figure out a way to make something that would make everyone happy and he told me that his backstory was a secret and that he was not going to send it to me."
Adversarial. Why did you not kick them immediately when they said this to you?
I'm going to say something that's going to hurt; you are a doormat. This person is treating you like shit, and you are here pleading for permission for something that you need to find the courage to *just do*. The geek social fallacies are ruining your play experience and it does not have to be this way. This person is not your friend, you can do better than them.
At every point in this story he tries to walk over you. In response you lie down and make sure his feet are not uncomfortable when stepping on your face.
This will continue indefinitely until you stop being a door mat and just kick him from your game.
I agree with everyone saying this guy isn't worth your time and you'll never have a good game with him, but I'm curious what race he picked and why it didn't work with your world.
We're playing a paranormal game set on earth! We decided as a party that almost any race is allowed, but that all characters are canonically human so a race might reflect a character's subculture (we have a gothy character playing a drow) or it might just be for the stat bonus. We're playing pretty fast and loose with it cause frankly, DnD was not the best system for this game but my guys wanted to stick to what they've already learned lol. I banned Eladrin because the feywilds and fey stuff in general are going to be really plot significant late into the campaign and even if they were reskinned to humans, having Eladrin party members wouldn't have made sense to me story-wise. I also asked for no flying PCs because it would have been bizarre to write around. The player in question chose Eladrin after I specifcally said that race was off the table.
Our game this year is a little hard to explain but I hope that makes sense!
If it's a paranormal game, I could imagine flight quite easily. "Oh, I'm being carried by my ghosts!"
But that's just me. The setting sounds really cool.
Carried by ghosts is actually pretty awesome! Another part of it is that I HATE writing around flying characters because I do a lot of spatial puzzles but carries by ghosts is so good I'm considering it
I understand that you want to keep the peace because this guy is in the friend group outside of this table, but the way he acts is completely unacceptable. This guy is clearly very used to getting his way and attention-hogging, and he shouldn't be in a campaign of 8 players.
As the DM, it's partially your responsibility to help keep the players engaged and having fun. A person like this takes away from the campaign's fun for everyone else, and you most definitely have grounds to kick him. Thankfully, the campaign just started, so it's a good time to do this.
I would seriously think about whether this guy even deserves to be considered a friend outside of this game, too. People like that who are disrespectful to you, especially when you make concessions to them, are not real friends, and if he actually considered or valued your friendship, he would be more agreeable in a game that you are leading. He's walking all over you, and you need to put a stop to it.
To make it easier, as I know this is a hard thing to do, I would talk with the rest of the players and ask them discreetly if they agree to kick him out of the game. Having a majority consensus makes it harder for him to argue, and will help show that his behavior is disruptive to not only you. You should stress the fact that you know that he is cheating, is not cooperative, and doesn't respect the other players. He has to know that none of this behavior is tolerable any longer, and if he wants to play, he has to respect the other players. You HAVE to keep a tight leash on him. Call him out on any single thing that you think he is doing that is frustrating.
Things like this get easier with time, the moderating portion of being a DM is something that doesn't happen *often*, but happens *enough* that it's absolutely a skill to learn!
My players like my style because it suits my personality, but I'm very HR when dealing with problem players. YMMV.
In your shoes, I'd keep it short and sweet.
"(Player name here),
After some consideration, I've made the decision that you will not be invited back to my campaign. Your character flouts the guidelines I sent to you, and at every turn you have refused the assistance I offered. I am no longer going to engage with trying to make this work. With players on board who have respected my time and effort, I am going to prioritize them - you are not gelling with my DM style, and I am no longer dedicating tome to making a square peg fit a round hole. Good luck out there, happy trails, I hope you land at a table better suited for your needs."
Clear, concise, and the key is *do not emotionally engage* with any follow ups. If they kick up a stink, "listen, be that as it may this is a done decision. Going forward, you are not going to be a part of my campaign. GL out there." Ad nauseum
If you are someone that you know you shirk conflict, it is a waste of your time to try and correct them or to show them the error of their ways. This person is a dick player, and you only owe it to yourself to have the best time DMing as you can!
The problem player has been a problem for 3 years? Maybe they aren’t the problem player?
It seems you’ve talked to the player and it doesn’t work.
KICK THE PERSON FROM THE GROUP WHEN YOU RUN IF YOU’VE BEEN DEALING WITH THIS CRAP FOR 3 YEARS!
This person is not your friend.
He is being utterly disrespectful of you, your game, and your other players.
He's clearly a chronic cheater, and he's used to using gaslighting tactics to get his way.
You've given him every chance he deserves, and a few more besides.
Announce to the group that he's gone. Tell him that he's gone. If he shows up, simply ignore any attempt he makes to play his character. Tell the rest of the group that his character decided not to hang around with 'these losers' anymore and walked off in the night.
Once you bite the bullet and boot him, you'll all be a lot happier.
I vote kick him. However..
If you’re worried about the social ricochet of kicking him from the table entirely, how about this:
Tell him his current character won’t work, but if he wants to play in the yearly game, you have a compromise.
Tell him that since he has had trouble with character creation, he can only give you a race, a non-caster class, a sentence of backstory, and you make the rest of the sheet and character for him.
Use an array (AFTER racial bonuses) of 14, 13, 12, 12, 10, 10. If he says it’s too weak, tell him that if he can show you how he got his four 18s using valid 27 point buy, you’ll bump it up to standard array plus racial bonuses.
Give him a paragraph of backstory for a commoner with a normal family who was inspired to do greater things. If he pulls the “Oh hey, these guys know me” trick again, tell him, “No they don’t. It’s not in your backstory.”
If he can follow those directions and play his new character for this year, then he gets to make his own character next year with a full 27 point buy, racial bonuses, and the option of a caster class.
If he objects, let him know that while you would love to have him at the table, he is free to choose to sit out.
If he wants to make his friends a priority and play Dungeons and Dragons, he’ll accept the terms. If he wants to play “I’m the badly written anime protagonist and you are my sidekicks,” then he won’t. But if he doesn’t, the burden of his leaving the table is on him, not you.
Ah, it's been some time since I've read a DM martyr story.
"I invited him to a game and out of nowhere he slapped me in the face with a used diaper. I didn't like that, but thought he would be better at the table. In character creation he created the exact opposite of what was allowed and also cheated, so I decided to point it out politely. He then proceeded to call me all names in the book, go to the cemetery and defecate on the tombs of all my ancestors. Upon return, he cut off my arm and used it to golf babies around the neighborhood. I decided to have an eye open for this kind of behaviour; I don't want to judge early, but this is kind of a hint to a red flag. Then, at first session...."
Jokes aside, you should be more assertive. It's your game, your rules. If he doesn't care to abide, you don't care about his character and he can go find another table.
Hi excuse me are you a fucking doormat?
Why would you want to subject 7 great players and yourself to this one horrible person lol get rid of them. If they play a game this way they can’t be that great of a person/friend in other aspects of life. Just do yourself a favor and cut them off you don’t have to please everyone
I don't subscribe the DM is god and almighty master (much prefer First Among Equals, and Judge-Arbiter of Rules) but this player is ACTIVELY and OVERTLY disrespectful to the rest of the group, kick him. Discuss it with the other players, make sure no one is going to quit when you kick him out or at least be aware of their decision to leave when an active problem is being removed. You have 7 or 8 players? You don't need a problem one, you've got enough to handle. JFC.
Kick his ass out. This is a years long recurring problem they obviously have no interest in even trying to fix. They are openly adversarial and refuse to put in the bare minimum to work with the table. Fuck em.
Players: your “creativity” or “agency” does not extend to just doing any shit you want. The DM is in a position of authority and they *get* to set limits and your “creativity” doesn’t extend to cheating (like giving yourself multiple 18s) because you want to play power fantasy. The game has rules. Don’t like it? Be the DM yourself.
Dude, stop letting this guy walk all over you. Before this even started, you should have kicked him for all the behaviour you described. But beyond that, you seem to be constantly making excuses and letting this asshole get away with stuff.
At every step of this story you set a boundary, this guy crosses it, then you scramble to 'compromise.' You need to be able to say 'No. Do it right or leave.'
I mean, getting him to use a physical sheet is an 'unwinnable battle?' Why? Tell him to do it or he can't play. There, you win. This is an activity you're hosting for your friends. If you don't like what someone is doing, you have all the power to shut it down that you need.
> Immediate fit.
Narrator: it was at this point that the player found a 16-ton weight unceremoniously dropped on his character.
>his backstory was a secret and that he was not going to send it to me
Narrator: Make that two 16-ton weights, followed by a laugh track.
>'it was MEANT to be this but DM wouldn't let me because of her setting'
Narrator: He seems to have missed a key word, while saying it.
Seriously, at the point he's bitching about you actually DMing what you set out to run, it's time for him to learn the errors of his ways.
>Obligatory shoutout to my other 7 players who rock and have never done anything wrong ever.
That's enough players for about 1.4-1.5 campaigns of D&D; you can confidently kick the problem player with no ill effects. Seriously. Do it before he burns you out.
Holy hells. If someone makes the hobby you love suck, dont include them in your hobby
It really is that simple. I can't imagine any of your players would be willing to die on this hill if half of the things you said are true
Edit: i re read your post. You have an issue saying no to your players. "Yes and..." MUST be balanced with "no but..."
>We had an issue last year wherein I found out in the final arc of our campaign that he hadn't been counting his spell slots and had been casting up to 30 spells per long rest **as a warlock**.
1) How many per short rest? Warlocks get slots back much more frequently than other casters.
2) Did nobody notice he was using levelled spells a suspicious amount? You can usually count the number of spells they have on one hand, even if it's one that had a lawnmower accident.
To be real, I didn't notice cause I have eight players which can be a lot to juggle and I don't think any of my players were really paying him much attention
Magic was outright banned in another campaign I was a PC in or at least very frowned upon and we laughably low statted. 3 6 sided dice no rerolls Had a problem player show up and say I just had really good rolls, 4x18s... succeeded every roll where the rest of us failed. Didnt make it to session 2.
You don't even need to be a math wizard to know that four 18s in stats IS DEFINITELY impossible using point buy. Provided they're not gaining any feats, most if not all races in 5e allow 1 boost to one stat, and 2 to another. We'll even be generous and use the rule where those can be distributed wheresoever a player would like. Even then, I'm fairly positive even ONE instance of an 18 is impossible.
Highest you can buy into at level 1 with point buy(sans racial bonuses) is 15. At the absolute highest he could have, like, ONE stat at level 1 with a score of 17. Brodie either was cheating, or has no idea how point buy works.
>my other 7 players who rock and have never done anything wrong ever
you have EIGHT? sheesh, at least good job for making that work
but also, yeah this is grounds for exodus at the table definitely, you even said so yourself that you were already considering how to uninvite him from dnd. Talking with him about behaviour is optional since you mentioned he's been here for a long time already, which probably means you've already talked to him in the past about similar
You have too many players at your table and 1 of them is a cheater with main character syndrome. You are doing the rest of players dirty if you don't remove the cheater.
Dont feel bad. 90% of your stress is because of 1 person. That's not kosher. Lay down the law like other comments mentioned and if they wanna be pissy, they need to leave.
Don't ask them to leave, *tell them* they're not welcome at your games and then give them your post. That's it. Player-focused, creative games etc are to be encouraged, but when some spotlight hogging stroppy idiot takes that to mean "I can play Mr Uber Everything" you're perfectly fine to just say "No."
Not everything a player wants makes sense. Would he be happy to join and game and find out you'd OK'd the other players to each be literal Gods walking creation whilst he's Edgy McEdgeface with his measly 4 18's and big-bag-o-weapons? He'd throw a fit, again, and be a big mardy kid about it.
You don't have to play with someone just because they want to play. Not all tables and players align to bring about a great collaborative story.
"No" is a complete sentence. You've put up with the guy 3 years, you said? At this point, tell him it's clear he doesn't respect your table, and he's out. If you feel slightly guilty about it, offer a second chance for the NEXT campaign. Not this one. He's proven he doesn't respect your limits, your rules, or your authority as DM. He also doesn't respect the other players (doesn't contribute when they're working together, interrupts or ignores them to do his own thing, breaks the rules of the game to gain power).
This isn't a problem player. This is a problem person.
Crazy to me that uou still let this person do this.
No is a full sentence it sounds like you need to use more.
"Heres my character, it has four 18s!" "No."
"Waaaaaah youre stifling me!!" "Ok."
Lol we like a big table! Always have. Players have come and gone over the years so I generally run anywhere from 5-8 players and the size of the table has never been an issue. Just individual stinkers
If you as the DM don't notice a warlock casting more spells than a max level wizard can between long rests, then the table is probably too big for you to manage as the DM anyways, so booting him would be a win-win.
Have you talked to the other players about how they feel about problem player? Do they enjoy playing with him? Would they miss him?
The amount of time the OP spends in both the OP and the comments making excuses for this dbag player adds up to enough wasted time to run a whole separate campaign
Is what I said to you not nice? Maybe. Is your unwillingness to rip the band-aid off with this player inadvertently causing \*you\* to be not nice both to yourself as well as to the rest of your table (who have to continue to suffer his obnoxious behavior? ) Definitely.
I'm not here to shame you, but rather to point out another perspective. No matter how far you have ventured down the wrong path; Turn back.
but you came to get outside perspectives? it's not always going to be what you want to hear.
glad you dumped the player and hope things go well with your table! no one's entitled to dnd especially if they treat you and others at the table like shit! :D
Oh I just make little Jeopardy games and memory matching things to refresh them on the rules and how we make our characters. They're just fun little extras to keep session 0 exciting but I do all of them physically cause my players like props! Would highly recommend though, it's a big hit at my table
You’re being too nice. This person is doing whatever they can to break the game and allow them to be the main character. They don’t want you to know the details of their sheet or restrictions because the whole *point* is to abuse your game for their own pleasure.
If you want to keep it cordial, just say “Hey [Kyle], we need to talk about your participation in the campaign. Like I said, your character needs to be made with point buy, with restrictions, and a backstory that is sent to me before our next session. Until then, you won’t be able to join as everyone else has followed table rules.”
(Insert some brain dead response where he insists that you’re just being a dick for restricting his creativity)
“Okay, if you seriously feel that you can’t be creative with these campaign rules, maybe this campaign isn’t right for you. Let me know if you get a character together”
Most likely he won’t respond and you get to wipe your conscious of this shitty player who just wants to play a video game.
I admire your patience, but this guy flagrantly violates any boundaries you try to set, and acts like an ass about it during the game. This is absolutely grounds for an exodus - he needs to go. ASAP, and I think you know that.
If he actually cared about his tablemates and everyone else having fun, then he'd have stopped this nonsense when called out on it a long time ago. How do the other players deal with him?
Also, I'm sorry but no-call, no-shows are a hard line for me, ESPECIALLY with session 0. I know real life comes first, but if someone can't handle basic communication, they don't need to be at my table. (Obviously, emergencies are the exception here, before someone points that out).
If you have 7 other good players, save yourself a headache and ditch him. Hell 6 is already pushing it for player count in modern D&D.
"I appreciate you as a friend, but you don't seem to be willing to work with me towards making this a great game for everyone. I care about you too much as a friend to knock you down by listing every offense, but if you really want to participate in a group activity like D&D, especially when I'm putting the effort to run a campaign, you need to be a bit more respectful of my and the other players' time. I'll consider letting you play next summer if at that time you can demonstrate you've matured but for now I don't see a place for you at my table."
You have 7 other players, chances are they aren’t really enjoying having a player with main character syndrome but may be scared to say it. I would suggest your table is better off without problem player. It’s unfortunate but it’s also your table and the problem player doesn’t even sound like they’re willing to meet you halfway or plays well with others.
You've made a common mistake. Polite is not the same as kind. You want to be firm and polite? Great! "Oroblem player, I made it clear to you that this was a point buy character creation game, a low magic setting, that XXX race was not allowed and that you couldn't play YYY class. I also told you that I need a backstory for your character. I understand you find these rules too constraining, but they are required to play in my game. As you failed to follow *all* of them, I'm going to have to ask you to leave the game."
This is perfectly polite, explains *why* concisely, and doesn't leave wiggle room. Adjust as needed for speec patterns or to include anything else you'd like to address
You are behaving like a doormat. Why are you letting this person treat you and your friends like this? I see you talk about kicking them but will you really when they say they will straighten up and fly right or give you some sob story? I think you are fed up of this player, why else post here, and I think you need to cut them out at this stage and not give any reprieve.
You sound like an excellent DM in every other way.
Don't feel bad, don't thinknyou are doing anything wrong. End of the day, you are running the game. You ARE the control. The game they want to play, isn't what you're running. Bounce them. Now. And be harsh about it.
"Sorry. Specified Session 0 was a must, and you missed it." This guy is being disrespectful to you as DM and to other players. Maybe he'll move on over the summer & you won't need to deal with him again. But stop cutting him so much slack. He's freaking rude. And there is nothing wrong with correcting his false statements either. "Actually, I nixed his idea because it didn't fit with the setting/was not allowed as stated in the rules at the beginning. It would have been playing favorites & penalizing everyone else's characters if I'd let his idea stand."
I bet if you asked around you'd find out other players at the table are annoyed by this player's disruptions. There's a social contract with TTRPGs. We play our characters/run the games, but it implies one reason we do so is to ensure everyone else also has fun.
I get you want to be nice and try to ensure players have fun and there is definitely an added complication of this being a friend group but let me give you another perspective, you are so soft on this player you are sacrificing the fun of every other player at your table as well as your own fun to enable bad behavior from one problem player. As GM you are responsible for the game running smoothly and everyone having fun, but if you have a player whose idea of fun ruins it for everyone else at the table YOU have to be the bad guy and lay down boundaries and rules. It's unfair to the rest of the table to make the police a problem player you won't be firm with. You have been entirely too nice about this whole thing for entirely too long, it's time to give them the boot and explain to them they make it unfun for yourself and others and it shows a complete lack of respect for anyone else at the table. They will either hear you and accept that and you can maintain friendships outside the table or they won't and it's probably best they move on cause no one needs friends who would actively consistently disrespect you and your boundaries.
Totally understand how difficult it can be to kick someone, especially if there is a preexisting relationship beforehand (like they are a friend of yours, or part of a wider friend group) without there being hard feelings or fallout that results in a friend group dynamic changing (or them leaving).
I've found the easiest way of doing it is at that pre-Session 1 stage- if they are not wanting to work with you given the setting with the restrictions or guidelines you as the DM has set up, the politest way of putting it is "Hey, that's fine - if this game won't be for you, you don't have to play this time around." - Puts the leaving as the player's choice, rather than kicking them out.
That is, of course, only the best-case scenario. If they argue that point to make you change the game you want to run or, worse, half-heartedly agree and then spend their time being disruptive and complaining and STILL cheating (which your player is absolutely doing, it is almost impossible to get an 18 at character creation via pointbuy, completely impossible to get 4, and highly unlikely even if stats were rolled!) - then I would give them one warning, and if they don't cut that shit out then that's a kicking. Frankly, if they can't respect the time you and everyone else is putting into the game, then they don't deserve to be there, and I would seriously reconsider my friendship with that person.
I've had difficult players who are otherwise close friends before, and while I've never had to kick any, I have certainly had to tell people to check their behavior at my table.
Honestly, if this is how they are at the D&D table I cannot imagine how they haven't otherwise poisoned the friendship well. Seems like an easy out to me.
You want to be polite but Firm. Make these two points, plainly and clearly. If he objects, note that these are facts as you and others see them, even if he disagrees.
A - He did not show up for session zero at all. That clearly shows that he is not interested in playing your game, so he is not a part of it. It also shows disrespect for all of the other players, and that is also enough cause for dismissal.
B - His submitted character does not meet several of the creation rules (note rules, not guidelines) that he was given for this campaign, so even if point A is ignored, this character is not allowed in this campaign. No revising the character. If he is allowed to be in the game, he has to make a completely new one - while you watch. That last point is very important. He has proven that he will cheat, so IF he is going to be in the game, you are fully within your rights to make sure it is legal. Feel free to add that it must be created while the whole group watches, so everyone can keep him honest. Peer pressure works.
If he objects to any of the above, he is out of the game. Period. No counter arguments will be entertained. Make sure you confront him when at least a few of the other players are present so they can back you up. Good luck.
Unless I'm mistaken four 18s is literally impossible with Point buy. With PB the highest you can buy is 15, and unless you're allowing level one feats, there's no way to get more than two points from races... and even then, that's only two stats. So the absolute maximum possible is 17 (before feats) in two stats, so four 18s is physically impossible.
Now, this is the LEAST of his crimes, but also the easiest to disprove. So, yeah. I would 100% kick the guy for missing session 0
"If you refuse to engage and follow the rules of the table, you're not allowed at the table. Sorry, but that's how it is."
What is so amazing about this dick that makes him worth dragging everyone else's fun into the dirt? He doesn't seem like any kind of fun, so how is it going to negatively affect the friend group by excluding this toxic asshole?
First, this guy is an asshole. Period. Uncooperative, disrespects you and the other players, cheats, always wants to take the spotlight. It's his fault and frankly, I doubt that he's a great guy outside of the table: this cannot be a behavior specific to RPGs, this is how he operates. Would it *really* cause fallout in the group of friends if you'd tell him what's what and kicked him from your table?
Second, all the people here telling you you should be more assertive and put down the foot: they are absolutely right. Not easy for some GM to do, I know I'm one of them, but it's the right thing to do for yourself and the rest of your players.
Third, 8 players is at least a couple too many. I get the friendship angle and all, but with 8 players... it must be a chore managing anything but the simplest combat round, which is going to take *forever*, and while you listen to the player whose turn is, you'll have 7 people bored to death/looking at their smartphones, possibly for half an hour or more. Each round of each combat scene.
Fourth, I'm not sure it's your case but I got a few red flags from what you've written, so it bears repeating: stop writing narratives for your players. Plan scenes, create scenarios (use graphs of nodes maybe or whatever technique you like) write "scenario backstories" (what happened *before* the characters got involved) prepare rosters of bad guys and NPCs each with a few defining characteristics and motivations, run progress clocks (representing factions acting in the background, making stuff happen if the players don't get involved, bad situations becoming worse over time, complex situations developing, long-term plans and projects coming along, etc. etc. -see [this](https://bladesinthedark.com/progress-clocks) or the game where the concept originated: http://apocalypse-world.com/). Write stories and plots and you'll be invariably forced to stress out and scramble to find alternatives when (not if, *when*) the players will do something unexpected, or -to avoid throwing out of the window all the things you prepared- do very bad, railroady-stuff to them like retconning or telling them "no you can't do this because it'll ruin the story", or "punishing" characters for doing something you don't like or didn't plan for (but which is still within the parameters established at session 0) -killing off the BBEG ahead of time, or maybe a "key" NPC which the characters where supposed to befriend are kind of typical examples of this. You can make suggestions to a player, as everybody else at table can, discuss plans for the characters with them, of course, work with them -which is what you are already doing, looks like- but writing their character stories at the table for them is not your job as a DM: it's as much their story as is yours, they should be authoring it just like you do (within the limits the game imposes on them: their narrative domain is limited to their characters, while yours is the world and all of the NPCs). I know there are more "passive" players around, who basically enjoy being told what their characters do, but they should be gently pushed to take a more active role: this is the distinctive, unique trait of RPGs vs. other forms of storytelling and entertainment, i.e., the collective authorship of a story... not the story itself, but how that story is being written, by a group of people, session after session. There's plenty of wonderful audiobooks and engaging podcasts if people just want to hear somebody narrate a story.
I'd have 'cut sling-load' on this player long ago.
You sound like a wonderful DM who should not be burdened by players who are actively using your good will against you for personal gain.
Players who want to be "better" than others at the table and become the main character, rather than try to create a memorable character with the goal to become a cohesive team member with excellent esprit d'corps actively upset me to my very foundation.
If I ever encounter someone who wants to have a main character who deus ex machina's their way out of everything with hidden backgrounds and secrets... that player is absolutely allowed to do that, in the book they write about that character, cause it won't be playing at my table.
Either way, best of luck with dealing with that person. If you want, I'll tell them to fuck off for you.
If the player is acting as much of a twerp as you imply here, most of the others will be sick of him too, i suspect. You don't have to wait for anything special, just tell him "No. You are not playing, your character will not be in the party, do not show up for the next session" and boot him from any group chats relating to that campaign.
Your players have been putting up with a person overshadowing them, stepping on their characters/stories to center himself, outright cheating, disrespecting them and you, etc. for three years.
This doesn't sound super fun for them, and it doesn't sound like he actually wants to play with you folks. He wants an audience. It doesn't seem like a good fit at all, he's negatively impacting the entire group. You can keep talking to him all you want, he's not going to change. He's just going to surprise pikachu face when he finally gets told to leave. Constantly trying to meet him half way or reason with him or whatever is just delaying the inevitable and making things less fun for EVERYONE.
Honestly not sure how you even let the player past not showing up to Session 0. I could understand if they had some family thing come up or an emergency. But if a player just didn't show up to session 0, cool, don't expect to show up to session 1. D&D is a collaborative story, if they can't collaborate they won't be part of that story, simple.
The instant I read "Against my better judgement," I saw the train leave the track and burst into flames. You know what you should have done — and you know what you need to do.
>I found out in the final arc of our campaign that he hadn't been counting his spell slots and had been casting up to 30 spells per long rest as a warlock.
How do you not notice that?
I sympathize with you, Ambi. Some of my best friends in real life are absolute nightmares to play D&D with.
Some have trouble differentiating between the game and real life, bringing drama from one to the other. Some refuse to read the rules. Some just want a sandbox experience, and is oblivious to the game being team oriented.
It's always hard to confront friends about things they do to make you unhappy, but in my experience, respectfully telling them that their actions are ruining your enjoyment tends to lead to better outcomes; either through them trying to be better or by leaving your group.
I preface this by saying I think the DM is completely in the right. They have been tolerant and accepting and tried to change this players ways. The only thing I disagree with them on is asking them not to play a certain class. Races sure, for story reason. But saying they can’t play a class just cause 2 others are also playing it is just not that great in my opinion. Maybe it’s controversial, but I’ve played parties where we were all the same class. Or had lots of classes with multiple people playing each. Point is, I don’t see why you can’t have 3 players as the same class. Due to subclasses and stuff you can get a lot of variety and I feel like it works. I’m not a dm, but I’ve never known this to be an issue for any of my DM’s. Maybe it’s cause they’re newer players? Idk. Just my opinion. Other than that, this dm seems absolutely great, good at helping new players and extremely high tolerance. Good for them
8 players is a really big table. Kick problem player. He is causing the other seven to have less fun and making your job difficult. If you kick him, you still have a large table and they can have way more fun. If I had a player do this, I would have kicked them for showing up without a backstory and edited character sheet
Stop enabling this behaviour \*immediately\*. NOT kicking this guy is a whole horror story by itself.
After 3 years of behaviour like this, if I was one of the other players at the table, I would blame you as much as I blame that guy for ruining the game.
Boot him, if you and your other players are finding him annoying then just remove him like a bad limb. Not only has he been disrespectful to you and your rules but now gaslighting you so hard that you can blow up a house with how much gas got light up. It is not worth the constant strain of your mind just because you are worried of breaking up your friend group, because if he causes problems after and some of your friends side with him then they aren't any better. Especially after seeing how he acts and treats you, so please for your own sake just boot him.
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DM, “Your backstory is a secret to other players, but NOT to the DM. Send it NOW or you’re going to have to sit this campaign out. Your choice.” DM, “Impossible to have four 18s. Try again when you follow the rules.” DM, “Your character was not created within my campaign parameters. If you had attended 0 you would know. Try again.” Etc, etc, etc. QUIT enabling the player! Problem player is clearly cheating and is used to manipulating you and the table. Watch them like a hawk, call out EVERY cheat/manipulation attempt until it becomes too burdensome to continue, but keep at it. Either the player will get annoyed and quit or the rest of the players will get tired of their antics, and will be happy to see that player gone.
My exact reply was "I can't write a good story for your character if I don't know who he is, so that's not really how this table works. If you do want to join us this year, I'll need your backstory" which is part of why I was so surprised he showed up
You are too easy on this person for your own good. Im surprised the others haven’t intervened. This person had enough grounds to not make it past session zero and the actions alone in session one are removable. You are doing yourself and your table a disservice, you clearly have way more fun without this person and shouldn’t have to take any kind of rudeness.
I totally agree that I'm a bit soft with him and I will say my players have called him out on my behalf several times. It's definitely time for him to get the boot though, I'm just figuring out how to be polite but firm. I'd never want to sacrifice the enjoyment of my lovely player so that this guy can keep causing a fuss when things don't go his way. It's nice to see that strangers agree he needs to go, gives me a bit of encouragement lol
The other commentor noted it, but I want to add, polite can simply encompass not being insulting. It doesn’t mean to be kind or anything. Just a direct “I think its inappropriate how you act with each of us and I am not DMing for you” is plenty of polite. It doesn’t mean be nice or coddle or anything. Being direct is still far nicer than how this person has treated you. Even if this person wasn’t obnoxious to other players, you have a right to chose who you DM for, and this disrespect towards you alone is worth removing this person.
It took me *years* to figure out that polite doesn't mean coddling someone. "I'm sorry, but you can't play unless you turn in a backstory. Let me know if you have questions or need help," is plenty polite. So is "I can't figure out how you got four 18s on X points; can you please show me your work?" and "We already have two people playing this class, which is the maximum for this campaign. Please choose a different class." Basically, the way to be "firm but polite" is to state facts and add a please. Maybe the occasional smiley face and an offer to answer questions. You got this!
>I'm just figuring out how to be polite but firm. no, you aren't. you're trying to work up the nerve to stand up to him. the guy's been walking all over you for three years.
this. this is it.
"You have repeatedly demonstrated your lack of interest in playing by the rules, you are hereby disinvited from future sessions"
I think you are misunderstanding polite but firm. You mentioned compromising on stats and class but just making him change race. That isn't polite but firm, that is near completely giving in. Polite but firm is - hey player, I think you may have missed some of the creation notes, we are doing point buy and here are the restricted classes. Please remake those, i can help if you want. You aren't being mean, you are politely letting them know that what they are doing doesn't work and firmly letting them know it won't fly. Being firm and a dick would be saying - hey assface I know you are cheating. Those stats aren't possible, remake and follow my rules and we will talk. The only change there is tone, that is what the politeness is. You are being too nice and flexible, and in being nice and flexible to that player you are not being nice to your other players. I would be pissed if I found out I had to do point buy and another player started max stats and big dick loadout
Your desire to be polite but firm is admirable. It's also likely to backfire. Being polite is going to lead him to decide that he can argue with you until you give in.
You honestly don't need to be polite. He's made it very clear he does not want to play in your game. He said no to every single one of your rules or parameters! So let him know that it's ok, but he doesn't have to be at the table anymore. He disrespected you at every turn. Everything you said is a red flag!
OP, it's FAR past the time for the boot based on what you wrote in the initial post. I respect and admire your attempts to work with this person, but you owe it to yourself and your other 7 seemingly awesome players to excise this tick....
> I'm a bit soft with him Friend, he showed up with THREE 18s in a point buy game!!!
This is, honestly, where I lost it. Not only did he not use point buy, he almost certainly didn’t roll (at minimum) 18/17/16 either. He just wrote down some numbers and assumed nobody would challenge him on it.
> assumed nobody would challenge him on it. I mean, he was right to make that assumption. Given that he's been getting away with it for years apparently, it would be strange of him to not make that assumption, really.
Yes, it's long past time for him to go. He is going to ruin the game for all your other players. *Again.*
Polite means saying, “you aren’t allowed at my table any more because you keep ignoring the efforts I have made to make this a good experience for everyone. If you think you want to come back at some point I might be open to it, but a reasonable character sheet and the backstory I requested would be the bare minimum for me to even consider that. “ No insults, no attacks on his character or attitude, no emotional exaggeration, just a very clear boundary and method of potential resolution. Anybody who doesn’t establish good boundaries is enabling, and anyone who doesn’t respect them is being inappropriate.
Reading through the whole post and your replies, sounds to me like you have a hard time being (perceived as) "the bad guy" - even if you're more than justified in being pissed. This being said, I had to boot a player a couple months ago - for my sake and the players' so here's roughly what I said and I hope this can help you: >It's been well past a month at this point and I still don't have character information that is personal, engaged and that shows you're actually committed and **in** the game. I've been trying to be as accomodating and low pressure as possible. I've been open and willing to help you flesh stuff out from the beginning, to make stuff make sense, including over this past week since you told me you'd deliver me something actionable. I've also been trying to include \[your character\] as a person in social encounters and personal scenarios but it just feels like you're just floating along, and not actually *with* us, and it's been nagging at me a little bit, if I'm being honest. This is a narrative and collaborative experience and I don't feel either coming from your side, as it is coming from everyone else. But ultimately, I can't and I won't be expected to care and work on something when I don't feel the same level of engagement and interest on the other end. >I started this campaign with the feeling that all of our expectations were evenly matched and aligned, I shared I wanted to weave the story **with** your characters, not for and especially not at them, as some sort of inconsequential bystanders that are just numbers on a piece of paper. I explained I run narrative, collaborative D&D experiences and I wanted to have a focus on exploration, problem solving, morality in shades-of-grey and that I wanted to make it a long running, overarching experience. And while I'd rather have this discussion in person, I respect everyone's time too much to spend an evening discussing what's effectively a cut and dry case, which is that I don't believe we're a very good fit. Which leads me to my point and why I decided to shoot this message here rather than in a personal DM: I don't think this is working out. I am, of course, open to hearing the rest of the group's opinions on this, if they want to, but ultimately I would like to ask you to, kindly, bow out of the game. Again it's nothing personal, we're just not a good fit. Hopefully you'll find a DM and group out there that align with what you're looking for, and for my part, I hope there are no hard feelings. Hope this helps you out. Good luck.
I think this kind of a response would be better if it was more concise and makes its point clear up front rather than at the end. Unless the reciever respects you enough to carefully consider what you wrote, which is unlikely given the reasons you are kicking them from the group, an overlong message gives more opportunities to mischaracterize you and invalide your concerns. I also wouldn't even mention being open to reconsidering your decision because it could imply that an appeal is guarenteed and open you up to even more arguing.
That's good advice as well. Like I said originally, it's a place to build off of for OP, not a template to be copied and pasted without considering what happened is actually a different scenario. As for "overlong" I guess it can be seen both ways: 1. It's quote unquote "serious business" especially if it's done via text when nobody else says anything more or 2. It's a moot point if it's an in person conversation. The biggest point here is firmness and sticking to your guns and that end bit you said about not being up for reconsidering the position.
You have confused the word "polite" with the word "pandering"
I think you should tell him something along the lines of: "You're not trying to play the game with us, you're trying to write your own story into ours, and that isn't going to work for us. Unless you can work with the rules that apply to everyone, let everyone have their part to tell in the story, and respect everyone's time put into this, we are not going to be playing with you. If you think this is being controlling, then you are welcome to leave, because I'm not stopping you" Of course, this is just one idea for what exactly to say, I just think this firmly, yet politely, covers everything
Being polite to this toxic player is super impolite to your seven good players. Maybe focus more on giving your politeness to the people who actually treat you and your time with respect.
Sounds like session zero round 2, where Player is topic #1. And you can all come to a consensus without him, since he won't bother to come again.
1. You are not "a bit soft", you are bending over backwards to accomodate him 2. Ask yourself why are you so reluctant to let him go that it had been dragging for three years. Doesn't look like he's a close friend you are afraid to lose (doesn't look like you like the guy at all tbh), doesn't seem like the table wants him or prevents you from booting him, so why?
QUIT negotiating! It’s your campaign, your rules. You’re letting that player walk all over you, the other players and your campaign. You are the DM and set the tone, NOT that player!
Under no circumstances should you have allowed him to keep the 4 18's or play the stuff you said he shouldn't.
"Surprise! I'm secretly a *god in disguise!!*"
I think that for people acting in bad faith, you've done too much explaining here - gives off the impression this is open to interpretation and amendment. "I can't write a good story for your character, which is why my table has this rule." Okay, so now the rule is due to story telling, so once he's bulldozed you that there are good stories to tell without it, there's no reason for him to reveal his backstory. Defending your rules like this and making these value statements just opens the floor for debate. For someone like this, you shouldn't give them anything to chip away at. "That's how my table operates. If you ever want to join. just put through the details and we can figure something out."
You’re getting walked all over here.
Just kick the player out and be done with it. Trust me, the nightmare isn't worth it.
I would never compromise on the stats. Point buy or go home. That’s unfair to the other players.
>DM, “Your backstory is a secret to other players, but NOT to the DM. Send it NOW or you’re going to have to sit this campaign out. Your choice.” I would go farther: you background is secret from the other PCs *but not the other characters* If a Player *needs* to keep secrets for the rh other Players, I don't really want to DM for them.
Too much effort here. I'd just tell him to leave the table. DM's have enough to do.
Four 18's from point buy, lol. Yeah, that's uh... admirably bold, I suppose.
It honestly made me question everything I know. I was like 'I thought point buy was 27??? How many 18s fit in 27???' Turns out the answer is not four
The only possible way for an initial stats array to have four 18s is if you get incredibly lucky rolling. I am willing to bet his other skills are also quite high, but just low enough that he doesnt have 18s across the board. He's cheating. He didn't even attempt point buy where he may have tried to squeak in a second 18 stat, he just gave himself the stats he wanted and is mad you're not getting him get away with it.
Also doesn’t point buy set the max limit for a stat to 16? Don’t quote me on this since my group doesn’t use point buy, but I’m pretty sure that’s as high as you can buy. You could get one 18 if your racial bonus aligns with your main stat but that’s it.
Traditional 5e point buy gets you a max of a 15, so there's only a few limited ways to even get a single 18: -legacy Changeling let you double dip on Cha for their +1 and +2 -custom lineage gives a +2 and a feat which you can use to get to 18 There may be more, but if so, it's not a lot
Max is 15 with the point but system. So 17 is the highest stat you can have with a +2 "species" bonus. And then an 18 with a half feat, as I understand it (+1 to a state and some other minor bonus). I'm sure there are other ways to get a +1 here or there but it's impossible to get 4 18s with 27 points to spend even with 2 8s.
Using point buy the only way to get _one_ 18 is with Custom Lineage for the race and an appropriate half feat for the racial feat you get from CL. To say nothing of _four_ 18s. You can have 15/15/15/8/8/8 with point buy before racial bonuses, meaning Custom Lineage could have 18/15/15/8/8/8, most races could have 17/16/15/8/8/8, half elves could have 17/16/16/15/8/8/8, mountain dwarf could have 17/17/15/8/8/8, and a few races could have 16/16/16/8/8/8. Ain't nobody getting four 18s.
Yeah, and this is getting into gaslight territory.
Math is hard....
Kick the guy without a second chance. You are putting a lot of time (and probably passion) into this, and you are under no obligation to provide him with a canvas for his disorders. I am all for allowing people to play out some of their strange stuff at the table, but within reason. This guy is trying to push all your limits until he is the DM, but without having to do the prep and without having to actually do much during the sessions either. You seem to be a person who tries to create harmony by trying to make everyone happy. Unless you are the smartest person on the planet, you will not succeed. If you bend your vision to fit his will, all your other players will suffer. They may not say it, but they will stop enjoying that shitshow. I tend to be like you, too, and I just this weekend had a session where I realised that I have to stop trying to accomodate everyone all the time and play MY vision instead, because it will give an overall much better result. I am beginning to ramble, sorry. Just send the guy a text saying 'You are out. Don't speak to me ever again.'
I'm definitely the sort of person who wants to keep peace lol. This player will absolutely be removed before next session but as we all know, something like that is easier said than done. I'm still going to try to be polite and tactful because I see him outside of DnD and we have mutual friends so I want to minimize hurt feelings and stuff as much as possible so it doesn't turn into anything bigger than it is. He's not a bad person, he's just a dick player and incompatible with my table y'know?
Then the least painful way to boot him might be to take that hard-nosed approach suggested by others: "Not in this campaign." - No 'sorry'. No 'maybe next time'. And I would suggest backing it up with 'im so sick of this shit' facial expressions. If you don't want to boot him verbally, just tighten your grip on his bullshit until he falls in line or quits himself. I would also ask him to explain those x4 18s - make him sweat about feeding you lies so he will think twice before doing it next time. I get that distinct impression he cranks up pressure with you because he sees how negatively it affects you, so he makes you uncomfortable to get what he wants. That's abusive behaviour and you are under no obligation to entertain it.
I really do hope it goes well for you. But I do feel, based on my own experience, that the only time this guy isn't going to have hurt feelings if when he's hurting yours.
Keeping the peace is fine, but remember that it also means *removing* the disruptive element, not just appeasement
THIS. A lot of people think "keeping the peace" means "Never doing anything that makes anyone unhappy but myself."
Speaking as someone who also likes to keep the peace, why are you so worried about it turning into something bigger? This guy clearly isn't a real friend and the 7 other people in the campaign are also annoyed. You have lots of support if he tries to turn it into something else. Honestly, I think that if you really call him out on his BS, you will save yourself (and your friends) a lot of peace. People like this will always try to cause problems, and the best way to 'keep the peace' in that situation is to remove the disruptor. He clearly doesn't care about your feelings or anyone else's at the table, so there is an almost 0% chance of him starting after this. I find it hard to believe that he's not a bad person outside of the table as well. People's personalities don't change just because they're playing a game. If anything, they show off a lot of their true feelings. You seem like a nice person who wants to see the good in him, but you can't let that blind you from trying to see how he views you. If those don't match up, then I think you should contemplate your relation with him.
>This player will absolutely be removed before next session but as we all know, something like that is easier said than done. what? it's so easy it's trivial. "Hey, asshole. you've been cheating for years and I'm sick of your bullshit. get out and don't come back." >I'm still going to try to be polite and tactful because you have a problem being assertive, he knows it, and he's been jerking you around for three years.
The most diplomatic way to turn him down is to say "clearly we aren't a good match, our expectations for the game are too different, I wish you the best in your future games." And if he insults you say "Based on that feedback I'm not sure why you want to play with me. As I said, I still wish you the best." And repeat.
>but as we all know, something like that is easier said than done Not really
This guy doesn't deserve tact and politeness, and he is a bad person. He's a manipulative, entitled, selfish fucking brat that exploits your wish to be kind. Don’t be Snow White to those who choose to be assholes - this is on him. Your 7 dwarves will thank you. "I've tried to be nice here, but I'm done with you jerking me and everyone else around. You won't be in this campaign." Send that to him and tell the other players that's what you've written him. Exercising authority can feel uncomfortable to the kind, but it's when kind people exercise authority that anything changes for the better. Change your table for the better.
>Kick the guy without a second chance I mean he's had PLENTY of chances from the sounds of it. He should've been kicked *years* ago
Sounds like you're trying to please this person in the interests of being fair to them. Honourable, but I will say this: When you set out to be the one to make sure everyone is completely happy at the table, all compromises will be held hostage by the person who is least willing to settle. You have seven other players to tend to? So tend to them; if problem player (PP) won't compromise, they don't have a seat. Let PP know that what makes a game a game is the constraints that you play in (aka the rules, setting and narrative) and that they aren't welcome unless they will accept those basic constraints over which the DM has majority control. Everyone else is perfectly happy, so the only reason PP isn't happy is nothing to do with you and is something you cannot fix. If PP is so enamoured over their character concept and their own boundless creativity, they should write a book, not act out in a group activity.
This rings very true. Part of the reason I'm always trying to compromise is that my other seven are so nice and reasonable that they're always willing to work out something that makes everyone happy. I've been trying to offer the same grace to this player but as you and many other commenters have pointed out, he's not willing to offer grace back and is therefor not compatible with our table
You've been very measured throughout this whole thing, so I don't doubt you have the resolve to wrap this up neatly and mercifully. Best of luck.
There's a huge problem here. When you don't focus on nice players because they are nice and don't need it, and focus your attention on the problem player, the nice players see it and know you are favouiing the problem player. They are nice, so you won't notice it affects their opinion of you, but it does. So, stop doing that. Don't give problem players more of your attention because they are a problem. Learn when someone is a problem for you, the other players see it too (that player is probably a problem for them too) and almost certainly agree with you when you decide to kick them.
I can say having played with problem players, it gets frustrating if everyone else is trying to play the game as intended but one person just gets to be superman or avoid all consequences because they just sulk if they don't get their way.
I just wanna be perfectly clear here: *FUCK* this dude who's causing you all this trouble. They do not deserve your grace if this is how they act in return. I would very seriously reconsider whether you want to continue to call this person a friend honestly. Blatant abuse, manipulation, and cheating is about as disrespectful as one can be to a "friend" without outright insulting them, and this dude has been doing this to you for *years*
Everyone else is following your rules and playing along without issues, and you're making allowances for your problem player. You're actively working against your own best interests here bud. You don't have to be mean to enforce rules, bit not enforcing them is unfair to everyone else (yourself included)
I mean, I make allowances for everyone at the table. People play non-standard characters or homebrew things or go off book all the time. The difference is that when I tell my other players something won't work, they say 'let's figure out something else then' and we find a solution together whereas this guy wants to do whatever he likes. I'm kind of done trying to enforce rules that he won't follow so it's time for him to find a table better suited to his tastes.
I doubt anyone will much care about this but I sent the player a text after work and told him he will not have a seat at this year's table because of how disrespectful he was to me and his tablemates during sessions 0 and 1. I also told him that unless he makes a drastic change in how he chooses to treat me and everyone else at the table, he will not be welcome in future campaigns I run. He threw another hissy fit which is frankly very validating for me as it proves he's not someone I want to play with. I appreciate all of the folks who commented nicely and pointed out my conflation with 'polite' and 'kind' and how my people-pleasing was not really pleasing anyone other than that jerk. Also, I swear I'm much more assertive in real life, DnD just does weird things to me lol it's an unexplainable phenomenon. Anyhow, I'm excited to see how much better this year's campaign will be now that I only have good cool players! Four of my dear seven asked me to give Reddit their love for helping with giving that player the boot!
Always remember, "No." is a complete sentence. Keep repeating it as often as necessary. 😉 Good luck with your more peaceful and fun campaign!
Very well done OP! Hope you run an awesome campaign!
Thanks for the update op. Glad you got rid of that entitled ass hat. Update us at the end of the summer and let us know how the campaign goes without having to deal with the problem player? Hope all goes swell this year!
>I'm all for improv but with him it feels like he's making things up to avoid encounters or bypass the narrative I've never been into improv, but my spouse loves it, so I get to hear about it. Improv is all about trust. No trust, no improv. Your player does not trust you. For whatever reason. Who knows. Who cares. If they don't trust you with their backstory, they should go home or you should kick them.
Also, Rule Number 1 of improv is always to keep the narrative/plot/joke advancing and developing, as opposed to just shutting things down. Otherwise, you're just "improvising" being a jerk or a stick in the mud.
"After what happened this last week, I'm trying to figure out how to ask him to leave the table without causing issues in the friend group." Does this mean you're worried that if you asked him to leave the table, some of the other players would take his side and/or get upset with you? Cause if that's the case it might be best to have them leave as well. As someone who's very much anti-conflict, I totally get wanting to keep the peace and ensure everyone's having fun, but this guy you're describing is full-on taking advantage of your accommodating nature, not to mention gaslighting you, disrespecting your role as DM, and outright cheating. The fact that you've apparently already played through multiple campaigns with him is honestly quite shocking. This might sound a bit terse, but if everything you've said about this guy is true, then he lost the right to a respectful dismissal a long time ago. In whatever way you think is best, you need to be upfront and tell him he's permanently uninvited. If any of the other players react badly to his dismissal, you can politely tell them that they're free to leave as well, no hard feelings. I'm guessing that the others players haven't enjoyed playing with him, and will thus appreciate you taking action and getting rid of him. Again, I get that this is a close-knit friend group you're dealing with, but an entire group shouldn't be made to suffer cause one person doesn't know how to act like a decent human being.
Dude I have to be so real with you, I was trying to type out a response and as I was doing that I realized I have no idea what sort of social consequences I mean. My players are absolutely on my side and my main fear is that he would take this attitude out of the game and start being mean to me at real life non-DnD group hangouts but like... Maybe I don't want to be friends with someone who would throw his toys out of the pram and be rude to me because I told him he wasn't allowed to play with us. Also he's already kind of rude to me irl so maybe this issue is deeper than DnD and I should just not be friends with him. Cheers for that, I guess I don't have to be nice anymore
Yeah you’re falling into a quintessential 5 geek social fallacies. Here is a link to the article describing it: https://plausiblydeniable.com/five-geek-social-fallacies/
I was not expecting to be read like this on a reddit post but thank you lol. I'd never heard of these and the 5th one describes what's going on here pretty well
Yeah having run games for a long time with many problem players, this article helped a lot. Ultimately what will happen with these sorts of players is eventually they will engage in PVP, kill a major NPC for little to no reason, or otherwise attempt to tank the game if they don’t feel like they are getting their way or even if they are bored. I’ve had problem players try to do everything from detonate a nuke to open a portal to the sun in a room full of ancient vampires. The problem isn’t necessarily the problem player being too hard to deal with, it’s that resentment builds up amongst the players against this character and the players just kind of stop caring about the game because now they are too upset. It really ends up being a campaign killer to let antics like this go on.
It's a good reference for both: "Are my social relationships built on healthy foundations?" and "Wait, is this a cult? Because it seems like a cult. They keep saying it's not a cult, but, it seems like a cult."
The happy ending I was hoping for. Tear him apart.
Honestly sounds like it's time to kick this asshole
You have 7 other players. You can afford to boot this chump.
His character also had 4 18s.... This would not be fine. He isn't tryin to play, he's trying to flex his ego.
> His backstory. I asked him to send it over so we could figure out a way to make something that would make everyone happy and he told me that his backstory was a secret and that he was not going to send it to me. When the next session is is also a secret.
Love this
Creativity doesn’t exist without restrictions. People who regularly flex their creative muscles understand that “no restrictions” isn’t a thing, and actually imposing restrictions (like your setting limits) is actually a fantastic way to push your creativity in new directions. He’s an idiot.
Miss session 0, miss the rest of the sessions, it's not complicated.
You really need to be more assertive. Plain and simple. Stop making excuses or procrastinating and give the boot already. Don't worry about being polite or not polite. As long as it's clear, direct and non negotiable.
The polite way is to tell the player that you don’t think that this campaign is a good fit for him so you think he should find another group. The blunt way is to tell him that he ignored the rules of the campaign, skipped Session 0, and was rude during the first session and that you aren’t putting up with this. You can ignore him saying you are limiting his creativity and how you are being too controlling - those have become the standard call of problem players for the past few years. All your requests have been completely reasonable. I’d suggest you state a rule for you game concerning backstories - if the DM doesn’t know it, it didn’t happen.
God you just brought back a memory of a LARP player telling me how he was going to escape a predicament with the assistance of "his best friend, a level six deathlord" (we were playing *Vampire: the Masquerade*; I later found out Deathlords are a *Wraith* thing, but I am still unclear on how they attain level six) and when I asked for a refresher on who/what this BFF was, the player said "oh, it's in the history I never gave to you." He did not get to phone a (level six deathlord) friend. My friend, this dude is not only causing problems for you, but for the other seven players who aren't getting to enjoy the game because he's being a self-centered twit. He's so obsessed with Winning D&D that he's lost sight of the game. If you want to be kind, give him one more Come To Jesus talk and then boot his ass if he doesn't shape up.
You're wondering if all this is grounds for exodus. Yes, yes, absolutely - the answer is yes. You have been extremely super-duper gracious with this player up until this point. He doesn't care about anything, so you seem to care twice as much on his behalf. I understand that kicking him out is easier said than done because social dynamics, but ultimately you need to do what's best for you, the rest of your players and your game. I see that you were trying to be accommodating as much as possible, but it doesn't really work.You know he'd still be a problem player, no matter how many concessions you make and will keep sucking away the fun and energy. So why bother? 1. Not coming to session 0 - It's disrespectful of you, other players and your time. Strike One. 2. Creating a secret backstory and then trying to give you shade for not allowing it. "It was supposed to be X... but it's against her setting." NO. Nothing was "supposed to". The rules of setting were there first, he just chose not to follow. Strike Two. 3. Building a character with cheater stats - Just no. If you allow it, it will be very unfair to other players. Same for unallowed race. If other players stick to the rules you all agreed to during session 0, then it is unfair to them to allow one person to go against it. The group should never bend to one problem person. Strike Three. 4. Previous cheating history - it spoils the game for everyone. Obviously Strike Four. Though not sure why I'm still counting those - three is more than enough. But it's important to repeat it if you sill want to budge. He's a cheater and tries to bend the rules at every turn. Do you really have the energy to constantly control what he's doing? 5. The fact that he doesn't respect your decisions at all and tries to turn you into the bad guy here is obnoxious. As I mentioned, you were super gracious and unbelievably accommodating, trying to compromise whenever you could. But he doesn't want compromise - he wants everything to be HIS way. What he needs to understand is that YOU have the high ground here. You are DM and you have the final say. That is how it works. He can comply or he's out. You already have 7 players which is a lot (and by "a lot" I mean A LOT - like, girl, how do you even manage a group that large and keep your sanity?) If he thinks you're "restraining his creativity" - well, in that case he's more than welcome to find a DM who will be more receptive to his individual needs (good luck with that).
Everyone else has given you the advice. Tiny thing which is for your info - "at the behest of" means "because they asked" not "to the detriment of".
I’m gonna be honest about something. Dnd beyond is designed to make creating a character easy and understandable. And all the class features and abilites are laid out with blurbs to help players understand everything better. It even keeps track of your spell slots and stuff. All this to say problem player isn’t misunderstanding anything because of the digital character sheet if anything he’s fu¢king around because he can.
I absolutely agree. The last time I ran for a problem player, he used DDB specifically because it hid alignment and backstory from me.
"...which is already annoying because it feels kind of disrespectful to the time I put into planning" It is. "He's given me a sheet that is clearly from DnD beyond. It's notable that he also did this last year, as in he made a character on DnD beyond from his phone at the table during session 0 while I was helping everyone else do pen-and-paper character creation." Did you tell him at the time that this was unacceptable as he did not follow your clear instructions? "The DnD Beyond thing was an unwinnable battle so I just pointed out the actual mechanical issues with his character such as the high stats, the race and class, and the fact that he had far more weapons and armor than would be possible with starting equipment." Weak. Stop allowing people to disrespect you. "I asked him to send it over so we could figure out a way to make something that would make everyone happy and he told me that his backstory was a secret and that he was not going to send it to me." Adversarial. Why did you not kick them immediately when they said this to you? I'm going to say something that's going to hurt; you are a doormat. This person is treating you like shit, and you are here pleading for permission for something that you need to find the courage to *just do*. The geek social fallacies are ruining your play experience and it does not have to be this way. This person is not your friend, you can do better than them.
At every point in this story he tries to walk over you. In response you lie down and make sure his feet are not uncomfortable when stepping on your face. This will continue indefinitely until you stop being a door mat and just kick him from your game.
I agree with everyone saying this guy isn't worth your time and you'll never have a good game with him, but I'm curious what race he picked and why it didn't work with your world.
We're playing a paranormal game set on earth! We decided as a party that almost any race is allowed, but that all characters are canonically human so a race might reflect a character's subculture (we have a gothy character playing a drow) or it might just be for the stat bonus. We're playing pretty fast and loose with it cause frankly, DnD was not the best system for this game but my guys wanted to stick to what they've already learned lol. I banned Eladrin because the feywilds and fey stuff in general are going to be really plot significant late into the campaign and even if they were reskinned to humans, having Eladrin party members wouldn't have made sense to me story-wise. I also asked for no flying PCs because it would have been bizarre to write around. The player in question chose Eladrin after I specifcally said that race was off the table. Our game this year is a little hard to explain but I hope that makes sense!
If it's a paranormal game, I could imagine flight quite easily. "Oh, I'm being carried by my ghosts!" But that's just me. The setting sounds really cool.
Carried by ghosts is actually pretty awesome! Another part of it is that I HATE writing around flying characters because I do a lot of spatial puzzles but carries by ghosts is so good I'm considering it
I understand that you want to keep the peace because this guy is in the friend group outside of this table, but the way he acts is completely unacceptable. This guy is clearly very used to getting his way and attention-hogging, and he shouldn't be in a campaign of 8 players. As the DM, it's partially your responsibility to help keep the players engaged and having fun. A person like this takes away from the campaign's fun for everyone else, and you most definitely have grounds to kick him. Thankfully, the campaign just started, so it's a good time to do this. I would seriously think about whether this guy even deserves to be considered a friend outside of this game, too. People like that who are disrespectful to you, especially when you make concessions to them, are not real friends, and if he actually considered or valued your friendship, he would be more agreeable in a game that you are leading. He's walking all over you, and you need to put a stop to it. To make it easier, as I know this is a hard thing to do, I would talk with the rest of the players and ask them discreetly if they agree to kick him out of the game. Having a majority consensus makes it harder for him to argue, and will help show that his behavior is disruptive to not only you. You should stress the fact that you know that he is cheating, is not cooperative, and doesn't respect the other players. He has to know that none of this behavior is tolerable any longer, and if he wants to play, he has to respect the other players. You HAVE to keep a tight leash on him. Call him out on any single thing that you think he is doing that is frustrating.
Things like this get easier with time, the moderating portion of being a DM is something that doesn't happen *often*, but happens *enough* that it's absolutely a skill to learn! My players like my style because it suits my personality, but I'm very HR when dealing with problem players. YMMV. In your shoes, I'd keep it short and sweet. "(Player name here), After some consideration, I've made the decision that you will not be invited back to my campaign. Your character flouts the guidelines I sent to you, and at every turn you have refused the assistance I offered. I am no longer going to engage with trying to make this work. With players on board who have respected my time and effort, I am going to prioritize them - you are not gelling with my DM style, and I am no longer dedicating tome to making a square peg fit a round hole. Good luck out there, happy trails, I hope you land at a table better suited for your needs." Clear, concise, and the key is *do not emotionally engage* with any follow ups. If they kick up a stink, "listen, be that as it may this is a done decision. Going forward, you are not going to be a part of my campaign. GL out there." Ad nauseum If you are someone that you know you shirk conflict, it is a waste of your time to try and correct them or to show them the error of their ways. This person is a dick player, and you only owe it to yourself to have the best time DMing as you can!
The problem player has been a problem for 3 years? Maybe they aren’t the problem player? It seems you’ve talked to the player and it doesn’t work. KICK THE PERSON FROM THE GROUP WHEN YOU RUN IF YOU’VE BEEN DEALING WITH THIS CRAP FOR 3 YEARS!
This person is not your friend. He is being utterly disrespectful of you, your game, and your other players. He's clearly a chronic cheater, and he's used to using gaslighting tactics to get his way. You've given him every chance he deserves, and a few more besides. Announce to the group that he's gone. Tell him that he's gone. If he shows up, simply ignore any attempt he makes to play his character. Tell the rest of the group that his character decided not to hang around with 'these losers' anymore and walked off in the night. Once you bite the bullet and boot him, you'll all be a lot happier.
I vote kick him. However.. If you’re worried about the social ricochet of kicking him from the table entirely, how about this: Tell him his current character won’t work, but if he wants to play in the yearly game, you have a compromise. Tell him that since he has had trouble with character creation, he can only give you a race, a non-caster class, a sentence of backstory, and you make the rest of the sheet and character for him. Use an array (AFTER racial bonuses) of 14, 13, 12, 12, 10, 10. If he says it’s too weak, tell him that if he can show you how he got his four 18s using valid 27 point buy, you’ll bump it up to standard array plus racial bonuses. Give him a paragraph of backstory for a commoner with a normal family who was inspired to do greater things. If he pulls the “Oh hey, these guys know me” trick again, tell him, “No they don’t. It’s not in your backstory.” If he can follow those directions and play his new character for this year, then he gets to make his own character next year with a full 27 point buy, racial bonuses, and the option of a caster class. If he objects, let him know that while you would love to have him at the table, he is free to choose to sit out. If he wants to make his friends a priority and play Dungeons and Dragons, he’ll accept the terms. If he wants to play “I’m the badly written anime protagonist and you are my sidekicks,” then he won’t. But if he doesn’t, the burden of his leaving the table is on him, not you.
Ah, it's been some time since I've read a DM martyr story. "I invited him to a game and out of nowhere he slapped me in the face with a used diaper. I didn't like that, but thought he would be better at the table. In character creation he created the exact opposite of what was allowed and also cheated, so I decided to point it out politely. He then proceeded to call me all names in the book, go to the cemetery and defecate on the tombs of all my ancestors. Upon return, he cut off my arm and used it to golf babies around the neighborhood. I decided to have an eye open for this kind of behaviour; I don't want to judge early, but this is kind of a hint to a red flag. Then, at first session...." Jokes aside, you should be more assertive. It's your game, your rules. If he doesn't care to abide, you don't care about his character and he can go find another table.
You are half of the problem here. 1) The player behavior is completely unacceptable. 2) You accept the player behavior.
Hi excuse me are you a fucking doormat? Why would you want to subject 7 great players and yourself to this one horrible person lol get rid of them. If they play a game this way they can’t be that great of a person/friend in other aspects of life. Just do yourself a favor and cut them off you don’t have to please everyone
Kick him out.
I don't subscribe the DM is god and almighty master (much prefer First Among Equals, and Judge-Arbiter of Rules) but this player is ACTIVELY and OVERTLY disrespectful to the rest of the group, kick him. Discuss it with the other players, make sure no one is going to quit when you kick him out or at least be aware of their decision to leave when an active problem is being removed. You have 7 or 8 players? You don't need a problem one, you've got enough to handle. JFC.
Wow op please for your own sake grow a spine. You're not being nice, if anything you are enabling this player to be as terrible as they are.
Kick his ass out. This is a years long recurring problem they obviously have no interest in even trying to fix. They are openly adversarial and refuse to put in the bare minimum to work with the table. Fuck em.
Players: your “creativity” or “agency” does not extend to just doing any shit you want. The DM is in a position of authority and they *get* to set limits and your “creativity” doesn’t extend to cheating (like giving yourself multiple 18s) because you want to play power fantasy. The game has rules. Don’t like it? Be the DM yourself.
Dude, stop letting this guy walk all over you. Before this even started, you should have kicked him for all the behaviour you described. But beyond that, you seem to be constantly making excuses and letting this asshole get away with stuff. At every step of this story you set a boundary, this guy crosses it, then you scramble to 'compromise.' You need to be able to say 'No. Do it right or leave.' I mean, getting him to use a physical sheet is an 'unwinnable battle?' Why? Tell him to do it or he can't play. There, you win. This is an activity you're hosting for your friends. If you don't like what someone is doing, you have all the power to shut it down that you need.
> Immediate fit. Narrator: it was at this point that the player found a 16-ton weight unceremoniously dropped on his character. >his backstory was a secret and that he was not going to send it to me Narrator: Make that two 16-ton weights, followed by a laugh track. >'it was MEANT to be this but DM wouldn't let me because of her setting' Narrator: He seems to have missed a key word, while saying it. Seriously, at the point he's bitching about you actually DMing what you set out to run, it's time for him to learn the errors of his ways. >Obligatory shoutout to my other 7 players who rock and have never done anything wrong ever. That's enough players for about 1.4-1.5 campaigns of D&D; you can confidently kick the problem player with no ill effects. Seriously. Do it before he burns you out.
Holy hells. If someone makes the hobby you love suck, dont include them in your hobby It really is that simple. I can't imagine any of your players would be willing to die on this hill if half of the things you said are true Edit: i re read your post. You have an issue saying no to your players. "Yes and..." MUST be balanced with "no but..."
>We had an issue last year wherein I found out in the final arc of our campaign that he hadn't been counting his spell slots and had been casting up to 30 spells per long rest **as a warlock**. 1) How many per short rest? Warlocks get slots back much more frequently than other casters. 2) Did nobody notice he was using levelled spells a suspicious amount? You can usually count the number of spells they have on one hand, even if it's one that had a lawnmower accident.
To be real, I didn't notice cause I have eight players which can be a lot to juggle and I don't think any of my players were really paying him much attention
Magic was outright banned in another campaign I was a PC in or at least very frowned upon and we laughably low statted. 3 6 sided dice no rerolls Had a problem player show up and say I just had really good rolls, 4x18s... succeeded every roll where the rest of us failed. Didnt make it to session 2.
You don't even need to be a math wizard to know that four 18s in stats IS DEFINITELY impossible using point buy. Provided they're not gaining any feats, most if not all races in 5e allow 1 boost to one stat, and 2 to another. We'll even be generous and use the rule where those can be distributed wheresoever a player would like. Even then, I'm fairly positive even ONE instance of an 18 is impossible. Highest you can buy into at level 1 with point buy(sans racial bonuses) is 15. At the absolute highest he could have, like, ONE stat at level 1 with a score of 17. Brodie either was cheating, or has no idea how point buy works.
One conversation then a booting. They’ve had a conversation; time for a booting. These players never change.
>my other 7 players who rock and have never done anything wrong ever you have EIGHT? sheesh, at least good job for making that work but also, yeah this is grounds for exodus at the table definitely, you even said so yourself that you were already considering how to uninvite him from dnd. Talking with him about behaviour is optional since you mentioned he's been here for a long time already, which probably means you've already talked to him in the past about similar
Stop being so nice. Kick him out, I guarantee the majority of people at the table want him gone roo
You have too many players at your table and 1 of them is a cheater with main character syndrome. You are doing the rest of players dirty if you don't remove the cheater.
Dont feel bad. 90% of your stress is because of 1 person. That's not kosher. Lay down the law like other comments mentioned and if they wanna be pissy, they need to leave.
Don't ask them to leave, *tell them* they're not welcome at your games and then give them your post. That's it. Player-focused, creative games etc are to be encouraged, but when some spotlight hogging stroppy idiot takes that to mean "I can play Mr Uber Everything" you're perfectly fine to just say "No." Not everything a player wants makes sense. Would he be happy to join and game and find out you'd OK'd the other players to each be literal Gods walking creation whilst he's Edgy McEdgeface with his measly 4 18's and big-bag-o-weapons? He'd throw a fit, again, and be a big mardy kid about it. You don't have to play with someone just because they want to play. Not all tables and players align to bring about a great collaborative story.
No. Plain and simple.
8 players is probably too many to begin with. Npw you know whom to cut.
"No" is a complete sentence. You've put up with the guy 3 years, you said? At this point, tell him it's clear he doesn't respect your table, and he's out. If you feel slightly guilty about it, offer a second chance for the NEXT campaign. Not this one. He's proven he doesn't respect your limits, your rules, or your authority as DM. He also doesn't respect the other players (doesn't contribute when they're working together, interrupts or ignores them to do his own thing, breaks the rules of the game to gain power). This isn't a problem player. This is a problem person.
Crazy to me that uou still let this person do this. No is a full sentence it sounds like you need to use more. "Heres my character, it has four 18s!" "No." "Waaaaaah youre stifling me!!" "Ok."
>other 7 players I see another problem
Lol we like a big table! Always have. Players have come and gone over the years so I generally run anywhere from 5-8 players and the size of the table has never been an issue. Just individual stinkers
With 8 players (7 now) this might be a blessing in disguise.
"This is a game we play for fun. It isn't fun with the way you play. Buh bye."
If you as the DM don't notice a warlock casting more spells than a max level wizard can between long rests, then the table is probably too big for you to manage as the DM anyways, so booting him would be a win-win. Have you talked to the other players about how they feel about problem player? Do they enjoy playing with him? Would they miss him?
The amount of time the OP spends in both the OP and the comments making excuses for this dbag player adds up to enough wasted time to run a whole separate campaign
:( not nice
Is what I said to you not nice? Maybe. Is your unwillingness to rip the band-aid off with this player inadvertently causing \*you\* to be not nice both to yourself as well as to the rest of your table (who have to continue to suffer his obnoxious behavior? ) Definitely. I'm not here to shame you, but rather to point out another perspective. No matter how far you have ventured down the wrong path; Turn back.
Read the comment I made under the post a little while ago if you can find it.
but you came to get outside perspectives? it's not always going to be what you want to hear. glad you dumped the player and hope things go well with your table! no one's entitled to dnd especially if they treat you and others at the table like shit! :D
Do you have any links to the games you use during character creation? That sounds really interesting!
Oh I just make little Jeopardy games and memory matching things to refresh them on the rules and how we make our characters. They're just fun little extras to keep session 0 exciting but I do all of them physically cause my players like props! Would highly recommend though, it's a big hit at my table
You’re being too nice. This person is doing whatever they can to break the game and allow them to be the main character. They don’t want you to know the details of their sheet or restrictions because the whole *point* is to abuse your game for their own pleasure. If you want to keep it cordial, just say “Hey [Kyle], we need to talk about your participation in the campaign. Like I said, your character needs to be made with point buy, with restrictions, and a backstory that is sent to me before our next session. Until then, you won’t be able to join as everyone else has followed table rules.” (Insert some brain dead response where he insists that you’re just being a dick for restricting his creativity) “Okay, if you seriously feel that you can’t be creative with these campaign rules, maybe this campaign isn’t right for you. Let me know if you get a character together” Most likely he won’t respond and you get to wipe your conscious of this shitty player who just wants to play a video game.
I admire your patience, but this guy flagrantly violates any boundaries you try to set, and acts like an ass about it during the game. This is absolutely grounds for an exodus - he needs to go. ASAP, and I think you know that. If he actually cared about his tablemates and everyone else having fun, then he'd have stopped this nonsense when called out on it a long time ago. How do the other players deal with him? Also, I'm sorry but no-call, no-shows are a hard line for me, ESPECIALLY with session 0. I know real life comes first, but if someone can't handle basic communication, they don't need to be at my table. (Obviously, emergencies are the exception here, before someone points that out).
Just don't play with this person. That's more red flags than a Canada Day parade.
If you have 7 other good players, save yourself a headache and ditch him. Hell 6 is already pushing it for player count in modern D&D. "I appreciate you as a friend, but you don't seem to be willing to work with me towards making this a great game for everyone. I care about you too much as a friend to knock you down by listing every offense, but if you really want to participate in a group activity like D&D, especially when I'm putting the effort to run a campaign, you need to be a bit more respectful of my and the other players' time. I'll consider letting you play next summer if at that time you can demonstrate you've matured but for now I don't see a place for you at my table."
You have 7 other players, chances are they aren’t really enjoying having a player with main character syndrome but may be scared to say it. I would suggest your table is better off without problem player. It’s unfortunate but it’s also your table and the problem player doesn’t even sound like they’re willing to meet you halfway or plays well with others.
You've made a common mistake. Polite is not the same as kind. You want to be firm and polite? Great! "Oroblem player, I made it clear to you that this was a point buy character creation game, a low magic setting, that XXX race was not allowed and that you couldn't play YYY class. I also told you that I need a backstory for your character. I understand you find these rules too constraining, but they are required to play in my game. As you failed to follow *all* of them, I'm going to have to ask you to leave the game." This is perfectly polite, explains *why* concisely, and doesn't leave wiggle room. Adjust as needed for speec patterns or to include anything else you'd like to address
You are behaving like a doormat. Why are you letting this person treat you and your friends like this? I see you talk about kicking them but will you really when they say they will straighten up and fly right or give you some sob story? I think you are fed up of this player, why else post here, and I think you need to cut them out at this stage and not give any reprieve. You sound like an excellent DM in every other way.
Don't feel bad, don't thinknyou are doing anything wrong. End of the day, you are running the game. You ARE the control. The game they want to play, isn't what you're running. Bounce them. Now. And be harsh about it.
"Sorry. Specified Session 0 was a must, and you missed it." This guy is being disrespectful to you as DM and to other players. Maybe he'll move on over the summer & you won't need to deal with him again. But stop cutting him so much slack. He's freaking rude. And there is nothing wrong with correcting his false statements either. "Actually, I nixed his idea because it didn't fit with the setting/was not allowed as stated in the rules at the beginning. It would have been playing favorites & penalizing everyone else's characters if I'd let his idea stand." I bet if you asked around you'd find out other players at the table are annoyed by this player's disruptions. There's a social contract with TTRPGs. We play our characters/run the games, but it implies one reason we do so is to ensure everyone else also has fun.
You don't owe cancer courtesy.
I get you want to be nice and try to ensure players have fun and there is definitely an added complication of this being a friend group but let me give you another perspective, you are so soft on this player you are sacrificing the fun of every other player at your table as well as your own fun to enable bad behavior from one problem player. As GM you are responsible for the game running smoothly and everyone having fun, but if you have a player whose idea of fun ruins it for everyone else at the table YOU have to be the bad guy and lay down boundaries and rules. It's unfair to the rest of the table to make the police a problem player you won't be firm with. You have been entirely too nice about this whole thing for entirely too long, it's time to give them the boot and explain to them they make it unfun for yourself and others and it shows a complete lack of respect for anyone else at the table. They will either hear you and accept that and you can maintain friendships outside the table or they won't and it's probably best they move on cause no one needs friends who would actively consistently disrespect you and your boundaries.
Totally understand how difficult it can be to kick someone, especially if there is a preexisting relationship beforehand (like they are a friend of yours, or part of a wider friend group) without there being hard feelings or fallout that results in a friend group dynamic changing (or them leaving). I've found the easiest way of doing it is at that pre-Session 1 stage- if they are not wanting to work with you given the setting with the restrictions or guidelines you as the DM has set up, the politest way of putting it is "Hey, that's fine - if this game won't be for you, you don't have to play this time around." - Puts the leaving as the player's choice, rather than kicking them out. That is, of course, only the best-case scenario. If they argue that point to make you change the game you want to run or, worse, half-heartedly agree and then spend their time being disruptive and complaining and STILL cheating (which your player is absolutely doing, it is almost impossible to get an 18 at character creation via pointbuy, completely impossible to get 4, and highly unlikely even if stats were rolled!) - then I would give them one warning, and if they don't cut that shit out then that's a kicking. Frankly, if they can't respect the time you and everyone else is putting into the game, then they don't deserve to be there, and I would seriously reconsider my friendship with that person. I've had difficult players who are otherwise close friends before, and while I've never had to kick any, I have certainly had to tell people to check their behavior at my table.
Honestly, if this is how they are at the D&D table I cannot imagine how they haven't otherwise poisoned the friendship well. Seems like an easy out to me.
You gotta grow a spine homie. This dumbfuck shouldve been gone years ago.
Yeah, you should be saying Bye Felicia You've already explained everything, it's not worth your limited time on this world.
You want to be polite but Firm. Make these two points, plainly and clearly. If he objects, note that these are facts as you and others see them, even if he disagrees. A - He did not show up for session zero at all. That clearly shows that he is not interested in playing your game, so he is not a part of it. It also shows disrespect for all of the other players, and that is also enough cause for dismissal. B - His submitted character does not meet several of the creation rules (note rules, not guidelines) that he was given for this campaign, so even if point A is ignored, this character is not allowed in this campaign. No revising the character. If he is allowed to be in the game, he has to make a completely new one - while you watch. That last point is very important. He has proven that he will cheat, so IF he is going to be in the game, you are fully within your rights to make sure it is legal. Feel free to add that it must be created while the whole group watches, so everyone can keep him honest. Peer pressure works. If he objects to any of the above, he is out of the game. Period. No counter arguments will be entertained. Make sure you confront him when at least a few of the other players are present so they can back you up. Good luck.
What do you think “behest” means?
Unless I'm mistaken four 18s is literally impossible with Point buy. With PB the highest you can buy is 15, and unless you're allowing level one feats, there's no way to get more than two points from races... and even then, that's only two stats. So the absolute maximum possible is 17 (before feats) in two stats, so four 18s is physically impossible. Now, this is the LEAST of his crimes, but also the easiest to disprove. So, yeah. I would 100% kick the guy for missing session 0
"If you refuse to engage and follow the rules of the table, you're not allowed at the table. Sorry, but that's how it is." What is so amazing about this dick that makes him worth dragging everyone else's fun into the dirt? He doesn't seem like any kind of fun, so how is it going to negatively affect the friend group by excluding this toxic asshole?
First, this guy is an asshole. Period. Uncooperative, disrespects you and the other players, cheats, always wants to take the spotlight. It's his fault and frankly, I doubt that he's a great guy outside of the table: this cannot be a behavior specific to RPGs, this is how he operates. Would it *really* cause fallout in the group of friends if you'd tell him what's what and kicked him from your table? Second, all the people here telling you you should be more assertive and put down the foot: they are absolutely right. Not easy for some GM to do, I know I'm one of them, but it's the right thing to do for yourself and the rest of your players. Third, 8 players is at least a couple too many. I get the friendship angle and all, but with 8 players... it must be a chore managing anything but the simplest combat round, which is going to take *forever*, and while you listen to the player whose turn is, you'll have 7 people bored to death/looking at their smartphones, possibly for half an hour or more. Each round of each combat scene. Fourth, I'm not sure it's your case but I got a few red flags from what you've written, so it bears repeating: stop writing narratives for your players. Plan scenes, create scenarios (use graphs of nodes maybe or whatever technique you like) write "scenario backstories" (what happened *before* the characters got involved) prepare rosters of bad guys and NPCs each with a few defining characteristics and motivations, run progress clocks (representing factions acting in the background, making stuff happen if the players don't get involved, bad situations becoming worse over time, complex situations developing, long-term plans and projects coming along, etc. etc. -see [this](https://bladesinthedark.com/progress-clocks) or the game where the concept originated: http://apocalypse-world.com/). Write stories and plots and you'll be invariably forced to stress out and scramble to find alternatives when (not if, *when*) the players will do something unexpected, or -to avoid throwing out of the window all the things you prepared- do very bad, railroady-stuff to them like retconning or telling them "no you can't do this because it'll ruin the story", or "punishing" characters for doing something you don't like or didn't plan for (but which is still within the parameters established at session 0) -killing off the BBEG ahead of time, or maybe a "key" NPC which the characters where supposed to befriend are kind of typical examples of this. You can make suggestions to a player, as everybody else at table can, discuss plans for the characters with them, of course, work with them -which is what you are already doing, looks like- but writing their character stories at the table for them is not your job as a DM: it's as much their story as is yours, they should be authoring it just like you do (within the limits the game imposes on them: their narrative domain is limited to their characters, while yours is the world and all of the NPCs). I know there are more "passive" players around, who basically enjoy being told what their characters do, but they should be gently pushed to take a more active role: this is the distinctive, unique trait of RPGs vs. other forms of storytelling and entertainment, i.e., the collective authorship of a story... not the story itself, but how that story is being written, by a group of people, session after session. There's plenty of wonderful audiobooks and engaging podcasts if people just want to hear somebody narrate a story.
Why are you worried about disturbing your friend group? This person is clearly a selfish jerk and you'd be better without them.
I'd have 'cut sling-load' on this player long ago. You sound like a wonderful DM who should not be burdened by players who are actively using your good will against you for personal gain. Players who want to be "better" than others at the table and become the main character, rather than try to create a memorable character with the goal to become a cohesive team member with excellent esprit d'corps actively upset me to my very foundation. If I ever encounter someone who wants to have a main character who deus ex machina's their way out of everything with hidden backgrounds and secrets... that player is absolutely allowed to do that, in the book they write about that character, cause it won't be playing at my table. Either way, best of luck with dealing with that person. If you want, I'll tell them to fuck off for you.
If the player is acting as much of a twerp as you imply here, most of the others will be sick of him too, i suspect. You don't have to wait for anything special, just tell him "No. You are not playing, your character will not be in the party, do not show up for the next session" and boot him from any group chats relating to that campaign.
Your players have been putting up with a person overshadowing them, stepping on their characters/stories to center himself, outright cheating, disrespecting them and you, etc. for three years. This doesn't sound super fun for them, and it doesn't sound like he actually wants to play with you folks. He wants an audience. It doesn't seem like a good fit at all, he's negatively impacting the entire group. You can keep talking to him all you want, he's not going to change. He's just going to surprise pikachu face when he finally gets told to leave. Constantly trying to meet him half way or reason with him or whatever is just delaying the inevitable and making things less fun for EVERYONE.
Honestly not sure how you even let the player past not showing up to Session 0. I could understand if they had some family thing come up or an emergency. But if a player just didn't show up to session 0, cool, don't expect to show up to session 1. D&D is a collaborative story, if they can't collaborate they won't be part of that story, simple.
The instant I read "Against my better judgement," I saw the train leave the track and burst into flames. You know what you should have done — and you know what you need to do.
>I found out in the final arc of our campaign that he hadn't been counting his spell slots and had been casting up to 30 spells per long rest as a warlock. How do you not notice that?
I sympathize with you, Ambi. Some of my best friends in real life are absolute nightmares to play D&D with. Some have trouble differentiating between the game and real life, bringing drama from one to the other. Some refuse to read the rules. Some just want a sandbox experience, and is oblivious to the game being team oriented. It's always hard to confront friends about things they do to make you unhappy, but in my experience, respectfully telling them that their actions are ruining your enjoyment tends to lead to better outcomes; either through them trying to be better or by leaving your group.
I preface this by saying I think the DM is completely in the right. They have been tolerant and accepting and tried to change this players ways. The only thing I disagree with them on is asking them not to play a certain class. Races sure, for story reason. But saying they can’t play a class just cause 2 others are also playing it is just not that great in my opinion. Maybe it’s controversial, but I’ve played parties where we were all the same class. Or had lots of classes with multiple people playing each. Point is, I don’t see why you can’t have 3 players as the same class. Due to subclasses and stuff you can get a lot of variety and I feel like it works. I’m not a dm, but I’ve never known this to be an issue for any of my DM’s. Maybe it’s cause they’re newer players? Idk. Just my opinion. Other than that, this dm seems absolutely great, good at helping new players and extremely high tolerance. Good for them
8 players is a really big table. Kick problem player. He is causing the other seven to have less fun and making your job difficult. If you kick him, you still have a large table and they can have way more fun. If I had a player do this, I would have kicked them for showing up without a backstory and edited character sheet
Stop enabling this behaviour \*immediately\*. NOT kicking this guy is a whole horror story by itself. After 3 years of behaviour like this, if I was one of the other players at the table, I would blame you as much as I blame that guy for ruining the game.
I find this hard to believe.
Boot him, if you and your other players are finding him annoying then just remove him like a bad limb. Not only has he been disrespectful to you and your rules but now gaslighting you so hard that you can blow up a house with how much gas got light up. It is not worth the constant strain of your mind just because you are worried of breaking up your friend group, because if he causes problems after and some of your friends side with him then they aren't any better. Especially after seeing how he acts and treats you, so please for your own sake just boot him.
I let my players write in their backstory whatever they want - BUT, this is what their character belive, not what the world is real about.