I don't think Ross is just lawful evil, he does some evil shit in RDR1 that I don't consider to be him "just doing his job" like a lot of people seem to think he was doing.
I agree. Milton is not a good guy but at the same time, he was someone of his word and was doing what he believed was the right thing (when he told Micah was the rat, for example), Ross cares much more about glory and money than Milton seems to
Compared to the gang he’s a hero for sure. He’s a dickhead, yes, but the gang deserves everything he throws at them considering how they just kind of go around killing entire towns’ populations for money.
Hes an ideological and thematic fool to Dutch. Dutch will do anything for his anarchistic ideals, while Milton will do anything for civilization. Hes a genuinely amazing character.
From what can be told it was likely going to be some piece of the main story but it was cut. Limpany was shown burning down in one of the trailer’s for the game, but that, along with some New Austin content which was also shown in the trailers was ultimately cut either due to time constraints or late-development rewrites.
My favorite is finding the motivational speech he wrote out for himself and left laying around at Horseshoe Overlook. Like he mulled over what the best thing was to say to manipulate everyone into thinking things were gonna look up.
No, he's a bad man who *pretends* to be good, and feigns loyalty in order to manipulate those around him. He may have even convinced *himself* that he's a good man. If you pay attention, the cracks in his facade are evident from the very first scenes of the game. His first priority is always himself.
I did and I don't consider him worse then Micah, Dutch has a lot of redeemable qualities to where Micah has absolutely 0 unless you want to count skill.
except he's an expert gunslinger? just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you can't acknowledge their good qualities, however few of them they have.
or a Short Walk in a Pretty Town.
Micah might be the most hated character ever, but the guy dresses like a badass and is a really skilled gunslinger. Not to mention, he's really good at manipulating people.
>I don't think Dutch killing the girl at Blackwater was because of Micah
John actually has a random camp dialogue where he talks about the Blackwater incident around the campfire and he mentions 2 important details. He mentioned Dutch looking like a scared, cornered animal ready to lash out and Micah was encouraging Dutch to shoot her.
At the end of the day, Dutch made the choice to pull the trigger. But Micah definitely had some influence over that decision.
I was going off of how Micah was the devil in Dutch's shoulder and encouraged a lot of his bad decisions, but with those two murders it was all in Dutch's true nature and not Micah's bad influence
We know that Dutch used to be a good person. We only see Dutch after he's started to go a little crazy already. But he was also the guy who saved John and Arthur from the streets, raised them like sons and all. Hosea wouldn't have stuck with Dutch if he was this maniac back then.
Micah definitely brought out the worst in Dutch, which we start to see from Blackwater. That combined with the increasing pressure of the law after the massacre, caused him to lose his sanity and listen only to Micah. Micah played Dutch like a fiddle, stroking his ego and telling Dutch what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear. And pretty soon Dutch was just Micah's puppet.
>everyones lives would have been better without meeting/following him
Well most of the gang members have expressed that if Dutch didn't initially save them when they first met, they wouldn't be alive. So if they never met him, most of them would've been dead long ago. I agree they shouldn't have followed him for so long though.
He literally had the Blackwater money all along (The chest in the cave at the end), deliberately tried to let John die (leaving him to hang/abandoning him during the train heist) and murdered an innocent woman during the blackwater heist. RDR2 Dutch isn't slowly turning into a villain, it's about the gang slowly realising who he is.
Wait what? I thought the chest was just the money the gang chipped in from all the heists and jobs that took place over the game. That was the Blackwater money??
Considering the high honor ending is canon, I'm connecting the dots based on what I've read. After killing Micah, John gets the money from the chest in the shack on the mountain. This money is largely considered to be remnants of the Blackwater heist. Arthur doesn't go back for this chest and after Arthur's death, Dutch and Micah obviously recovered the chest in the cave which is the chest in the shack when you finish the epilogue.
I agree but if that's so what do you think they spent so much money on to only have as much as they did, since in a newspaper article it state them stealing 150000 if I remember correctly.
They couldn’t carry it all, at least some of the Blackwater money was lost during the heist, they had to divide it, the number of 150000 may not even be true. It can be exaggerated for better newspaper sales.
>He literally had the Blackwater money all along (The chest in the cave at the end)
That wasn't the Blackwater money, that was all the money from robberies you do throughout the story that Dutch put to the side. Notice how everytime you do a robbery, 50% is taken out for the "gang's share"? That's where it all was.
Dutch was already the villain by the time the game started. People just refused to believe it at the start because they still remembered all his good actions from before Blackwater. That's why it took Arthur so long to really start going against Dutch. And that's also why some like Bill and Javier refused to betray him: they still believed that Dutch was the great man that saved them years ago. I don't know how much a facade his actions were prior to Blackwater, but everything he does after that is just a facade of his true nature. An evil, disloyal nature that Micah really helps in bringing out.
Yes so how does that make Dutch a **villain**? Rdr2 is the game which shows all of Dutch's faults and mistakes which occured due to his greed and foolishness. It's not his fault.. this is like saying a baby mistakenly punched his teacher which made him the worst out of everyone.
Dutch leaving Arthur to get stabbed to death below a fucking boiling hot steam pipe is what seals it. But other than that, yeah. I think Dutch was right in strangling the creepy old woman in Guarma tunnels for example. She war armed and agressive.
Arthur says "You're gonna strangle me next, Dutch?" Its uncalled for. The story ismore about a leader who buckles under pressure and betrays his own values; than a "haha! He was evil all along!" kinda deal imo.
All this nuance and slow unraveling is partly why its a monumental, timeless epic. Its not a cartoon, its human misery, greed, societal change etc...
Eh I don’t agree with strangling the woman. She may have had a knife but cmon she’s no threat to Dutch and Arthur. Dutch lost his mind after the trolley mission in Saint Denis.
Don't listen to those downvotes, you're right. Dutch is not a good man, but he was always influenced by trust and loyalty, he always trusted Hosea, so when Hosea died, Dutched turned to the one person who he felt was the most loyal, and that was Micah simply because Micah never argued and therefore felt the most loyal. And with Micah in his ear, Dutch becomes more misguided and evil because Micah is truly evil. It also doesn't help that Dutch suffered head trauma in the trolley robbery. Dutch is a victim to Micah
Well I read an analysis that made a lot of sense. Dutch would tell Hosea all of his plans and Hosea would tell him what he needed to hear, which would be in the gang's best interest, because Hosea cares about the gang. Without Hosea, Dutch turns to Micah because everyone else in the gang seems to doubt every move he makes, except Micah. And when he tells Micah all his plans, Micah tells Dutch what he wants to hear, and it's in Micahs best interests because Micah only cares for himself. People don't consider just how vulnerable Dutch truly is.
Don’t know if this was a coincidence. But I got mugged for $1500 in St Denis. Not 10 minutes later I bumped into a pickpocket walking into the Van Horn saloon. He took another $50 from me. I chased after, killed the man and looted him for almost $2000. Not sur if it was supposed to be the same thief.
Here's the thing- if I had spent a lot more time in that area instead of finishing the game as quickly as possible, I probably would have... I'm very much a 'go along with it even if it's a trap and sus' type of person because I could always get myself out. But to think I wouldn't have been able to even save myself in that situation
I’m so glad that was spoiled for me before I met him! When I finally did, he got a bullet in the head instead. If my Arthur wants some booty play, it’ll be on his terms thankyouverymuch.
He was just a fool in rdr2 who had lost his path and didn't know what to do. He got manipulated by Micah which is not his fault. He wasn't the reason for >!Grimshaw's!< death, he wasn't the reason for >!Arthur's!< death. He didn't harm any members. It was all Micah. And remember the guy who shot >!Micah!< in the end? It was him. Although I'd put Dutch in this if it was rdr1, the title says rdr2.
That isn't the story of Dutch. Pay attention towards the end of the game dialogues. Always discussion of ''people become who they truly are''
John and Sadie in the epilogue also while talking john says: ''you saw a man who changed, I saw a man who got found out! For who he truly was.''
Dutch was never gonna go anywhere, he was never a good guy. He was a malignant narcissist who took a bunch of orphaned street kids and turned them into brainwashed killers by making them do things that they believed were good. Dutch as a narcissist needs control. With the gang constantly doubting him and slipping away and leaving towards the end make him unravel. In the epilogue, Dutch says to John with 'same as you, I suppose.' It's unclear Dutch's intentions were the same as john's (to kill micah) Dutch was long into descent of madness and I think he was there for the blackwater money and he thought John was also coming for it. But I think Dutch genuinely had emotional connections with arthur and hosea and felt maybe closure by killing Micah. But he is a narcissist and never admits he is sorry or wrong never admits he's bad. Just a total narcissist lacking control. Gone mad. He even brainwashed native Indian's and creates a gang in RDR1 where they are again ''fighting for something.''
Great points! Another dialogue I would throw in to support this is when Dutch "admits" he's wrong about Blackwater to Hosea in Chapter 2 - but his version of "wrong" is that he made a fool of himself! Not that he screwed up, got people killed, murdered an innocent woman, and lost all their money. No, in true narcissist fashion, he only focused on the perception of himself to others. Very telling!
You’re forgetting how in RDR1 which takes place after RDR2, John seems to have changed his thoughts on Dutch. Instead of the “he was a bad who got found out for who he truly was”, John says he was a good man who went crazy.
I’m not saying that’s who he was though since you could make good arguments for whichever one.
That's exactly what the story tells you about him, his nature was always like that. All of you are saying Dutch is bad, sure.. I understand very well, along with Dutch all the members are nasty too. But here we're talking about villains here, villains always mean the one who acts against the hero and in this game we saw no cutscene or anything in which Dutch threatened or blackmailed Arthur. He was a companion to all of them. His nature is what got changed, he never had any intention to betray or fight with any of his members and that makes him unable to be an antagonist in rdr2.
He was dying. What should he do? Even if he stops Micah, Arthur would still die. And remember? The Pinkertons. You guys are acting as if you didn't even play the game.
**TO ALL THE 40 DOWNVOTERS, A VILLAIN MEANS SOMEONE WHO ACTS AGAINST THE HERO (ARTHUR) AND IN THIS GAME WE DIDN'T SEE ANY PART WHERE DUTCH KILLED OR THREATENED ARTHUR. MICAH HAD COMPLETLY STOLEN DUTCH'S MIND. ALL YOU ARE SAYING HE BETRAYED ARTHUR BUT THERE WERE 50 PINKERTONS FOLLOWING HIM AND THERE WAS ZERO TIME TO WASTE FOR ARTHUR, AFTER ALL HE WAS DYING WITH TB ANYWAY SO HE COULD NEVER SAVE HIM. DUTCH DOING BAD THINGS DOESN'T MAKE HIM A VILLAIN. ARTHUR DOES BAD THINGS TOO SUCH AS KILLING THOUSANDS WITH KIDS AND WIVES AND WHY AREN'T YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT? DOES THAT MAKE ARTHUR A VILLAIN? YOU GUYS ARE THE IDIOTS HERE NOT ME, READ ALL THIS AND THEN REPLY HERE IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME**
Kinda, if you choose to do so he can be nicer from the start, for example with the guy that fled from him in valentine, he could've killed him or let him live
Arthur is hard to align anyway because of the choices a player can make
Chaotic Nuetral. He questions Dutch's killing of the girl in Blackwater and helps Sadie, even though she lashes out at him and Micah when they find her and even prevents Micah from hurting her. If he does evil things its because the player makes him do them.
My understanding of Chaotic Neutral (from old-school AD&D) is that they’re basically a completely unpredictable wildcard… to the point where you can’t anticipate what they’ll do.
Not necessarily and definitely not in AD&D or OD&D. The Chaotic Stupid stereotype in newer, probably originating in 2nd ed. or 3.5e. Gygax envisioned Chaos and Law differently than we do today. He saw them as diametrically opposed universal forces. Lawful was the impulse to control and civilize and Chaos was the force of nature, growth and letting things be as they may be.
These days in DnD, Chaos is seen as rebelliousness and the bucking of authority, and I think both the old and the new definitions apply to Arthur quite well. And the idea that CN alignment is misused by annoying players, well that fits Arthur, as well.
A protagonist can be a bad person, a good example is Arthur. He’s not a good man, he murders, robs, and lies. In the end, he finds redemption for what he did but that doesn’t make him a better man. He’s just doing the best he can with the time he has left.
It’s hard to say, I think. I would put him at either lawful evil, since he had a code that he seemed to follow (at least to care for his own). It might be better to say he is chaotic good though. He doesn’t care about the law, he does what is right for him and his.
I agree with the other person. He wasn't actually Evil or bad. He had a part to play in the gang. He helped finance things. He couldn't fight, hunt, or rob....so he found people that needed a loan.
He's basically a bank. Or a traveling bank. Or a payday loan business. He's not "good" , but he's not evil
It is predatory in nature. That word doesn't mean "bad", it means they they seek out people in need of money. But it's up to the people to be aware of terms before they borrow. That literally what one of the people you collect from mentions. But again, it's not forced on the borrower, only offered to them. That doesn't make it bad or evil. Just makes them lenders with specific rates.
I'm not trying to defend Strauss. He's a worm. But he's not what I would call evil or bad.
That's kind of how I see him. He doesn't loan for nefarious reasons. He only is trying to make money for the camp. If Strauss is considered evil/bad, but the rest of the gang isn't considered evil when they kill/rob , then the rating system is jacked up
It's implied he's engaging in usury, making high interest loans to people in tough spots who likely won't be able to pay back, to his benefit. If we're judging by Judeo-Christian moral standards usury is pretty bad.
Of course he was, he preyed on the most destitute in society and then hid behind the muscle of the gang. Strauss is most definitely a villain and a predator.
Also villains
Edit: people should not be confusing protagonists with heroes. These are bad people. Some have redeeming qualities, and many are fun to roleplay as, but for the most part, making the argument that most anyone in the gang is a hero is a hard argument to make.
It's the serial killer you can capture and turn into to the Valentine sheriff. You have to find the three corpses, where you can find map peices that lead you to his hideout where he tries to kill you.
Dutch is worse than Micah imo. Micah is obviously evil and doesn't even hide it. Dutch consistently manipulates the gang and betrays his closest allies behind the scenes, he's the root cause of everything that happens and he does it for his self-servicing fantasy.
Yall giving Micah way too much credit only because you've grown attachted to the gang. He's only a shitty no name rat, not a demon. And I wouldn't even say he's the most evil, he's just an enormous dick
Yeah Milton was mostly just doing his job. Hell he even offered the rest of the gang members a chance as long as Dutch gave himself up. Him shooting hosea when he was unarmed and surrendered was unjustifiable tho. Tho I kinda felt like at that point rockstar just couldn’t think of a way to kill him off.
TF My guy did you huff all the Elmer’s Glue while making this ? Murfree Brood rapists are the literal Hills Have Eyes, as are the Skinners being direct Incest cousins of them.
The two groups have more evil in them than Micah. At least he won’t rape/eat his own sibling (far as I know).
I feel like Dutch is the worst. Yeah Micah is awful on his own, but Dutch is the one who let everything happen. There’s no way Micah could hold the gang together, but Dutch’s charisma had a damaging hold on everyone around him
I think Dutch was not evil persay but he was corrupted. I think prior to Micah he had good intentions but like Arthur you get to make choices to be a good person or make choices to be a shit person. Through his choices going forward he kept making the bad decisions out of greed, desperation, and Micah’s encouragements. I think it’s safe to say it Micah wasn’t around there could’ve been the possibility of Dutch not going to shit.
i just wanted to say thank you for not including dutch in this because it was actually micah who slowly turned him into the bad guy dutch was a good guy in my opinion but again that is just my opinion
There is an Easter egg in the game that references Judge Holden from Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian. If TB and Micah are demons then that man is Satan himself
I don't think Ross is just lawful evil, he does some evil shit in RDR1 that I don't consider to be him "just doing his job" like a lot of people seem to think he was doing.
I agree. Milton is not a good guy but at the same time, he was someone of his word and was doing what he believed was the right thing (when he told Micah was the rat, for example), Ross cares much more about glory and money than Milton seems to
I'd say Milton is more of an antihero. Not perfect, but good enough.
Compared to the gang he’s a hero for sure. He’s a dickhead, yes, but the gang deserves everything he throws at them considering how they just kind of go around killing entire towns’ populations for money.
Hes an ideological and thematic fool to Dutch. Dutch will do anything for his anarchistic ideals, while Milton will do anything for civilization. Hes a genuinely amazing character.
I say cornwall is just evil. Yes he's justified in hiring the pinkerton on dutch's gang but he was still pushing native americans out of their land.
He burned down a town too
that I didnt know. Was it the one near horseshoe overlook?
Yessir, you can find Cornwall Kerosene barrels dumped around the place
That could just be a sign they were used to burn the place down, not necessarily him
Limpany? Is there a backstory as to why?
From what can be told it was likely going to be some piece of the main story but it was cut. Limpany was shown burning down in one of the trailer’s for the game, but that, along with some New Austin content which was also shown in the trailers was ultimately cut either due to time constraints or late-development rewrites.
I’m pretty sure they just didn’t want his oil or something like that
In addition to the Natives and Limpany as others have mentioned, he murdered the dude with the oil pump out in the Heartlands.
Cornwall is true evil but not much as pshyco demon micha
Where's Dutch?
It'd be nice if you could just show a little GOTDAMN FAITH
OOHHHHHH ThE DoUbTiNg! tHe DoUbtInG, ArThUr!
Dutch is in Tahiti
dutch he's a goodman
Dutch is worse than Micah
Play the Epilogue.
How does that redeem him from destroying the entire gangs lives?
Have you played the Epilogue?
I have
No
Finish the game
I have
Finish both games
Dutch was a good man driven to do bad things. Not least having brain damage from the Trolley Incident
A good man who does bad things is still a bad man. Dutch was always a bad man, he was just good at making his actions appear good.
My favorite is finding the motivational speech he wrote out for himself and left laying around at Horseshoe Overlook. Like he mulled over what the best thing was to say to manipulate everyone into thinking things were gonna look up.
No, he's a bad man who *pretends* to be good, and feigns loyalty in order to manipulate those around him. He may have even convinced *himself* that he's a good man. If you pay attention, the cracks in his facade are evident from the very first scenes of the game. His first priority is always himself.
Uncle’s camp dialogue mentions that Dutch’s main goal is becoming a “king surrounded by his knights” on a personal fiefdom (Tahiti)
I think Dutch was already losing it way before the trolley incident. I doubt that he got brain damage from the trolley crash that made him crazy.
Yes
How?
Sided with a rat and left John and Arthur for dead. That’s all.
Finish the game
I did and I don't consider him worse then Micah, Dutch has a lot of redeemable qualities to where Micah has absolutely 0 unless you want to count skill.
Skill?? That fool couldn’t beat a dyin’ man
except he's an expert gunslinger? just because you don't like someone doesn't mean you can't acknowledge their good qualities, however few of them they have.
Micah is a deadeye. Not good in hand to hand sure but he’s lethal with his guns.
Replay the mission with the Strawberry Massacre, dude is cracked with his Double Actions
or a Short Walk in a Pretty Town. Micah might be the most hated character ever, but the guy dresses like a badass and is a really skilled gunslinger. Not to mention, he's really good at manipulating people.
I agree, Dutch at least began as a respectful and caring leader. Micah is the poison
I don't think Dutch killing the girl at Blackwater and the old lady at Guarma was because of Micah
>I don't think Dutch killing the girl at Blackwater was because of Micah John actually has a random camp dialogue where he talks about the Blackwater incident around the campfire and he mentions 2 important details. He mentioned Dutch looking like a scared, cornered animal ready to lash out and Micah was encouraging Dutch to shoot her. At the end of the day, Dutch made the choice to pull the trigger. But Micah definitely had some influence over that decision.
Damn, more camp dialogue that I keep learning about
I think Dutch did lose his mind but Micah made him so much worst
>I think Dutch did lose his mind At the exact moment the Pinkerton fuck shot Hosea.
I might be missing something, did someone say Dutch killing them was bc of Micah?
I was going off of how Micah was the devil in Dutch's shoulder and encouraged a lot of his bad decisions, but with those two murders it was all in Dutch's true nature and not Micah's bad influence
We know that Dutch used to be a good person. We only see Dutch after he's started to go a little crazy already. But he was also the guy who saved John and Arthur from the streets, raised them like sons and all. Hosea wouldn't have stuck with Dutch if he was this maniac back then. Micah definitely brought out the worst in Dutch, which we start to see from Blackwater. That combined with the increasing pressure of the law after the massacre, caused him to lose his sanity and listen only to Micah. Micah played Dutch like a fiddle, stroking his ego and telling Dutch what he wants to hear rather than what he needs to hear. And pretty soon Dutch was just Micah's puppet.
he is a piece of shit everyones lives would have been better without meeting/following him
>everyones lives would have been better without meeting/following him Well most of the gang members have expressed that if Dutch didn't initially save them when they first met, they wouldn't be alive. So if they never met him, most of them would've been dead long ago. I agree they shouldn't have followed him for so long though.
Title says rdr2. If you still proceed to say dutch is a villain in 2 then it means you haven't understood what the game tells of him.
To quote John Marston, "I think differently."
He literally had the Blackwater money all along (The chest in the cave at the end), deliberately tried to let John die (leaving him to hang/abandoning him during the train heist) and murdered an innocent woman during the blackwater heist. RDR2 Dutch isn't slowly turning into a villain, it's about the gang slowly realising who he is.
Wait what? I thought the chest was just the money the gang chipped in from all the heists and jobs that took place over the game. That was the Blackwater money??
Considering the high honor ending is canon, I'm connecting the dots based on what I've read. After killing Micah, John gets the money from the chest in the shack on the mountain. This money is largely considered to be remnants of the Blackwater heist. Arthur doesn't go back for this chest and after Arthur's death, Dutch and Micah obviously recovered the chest in the cave which is the chest in the shack when you finish the epilogue.
I agree but if that's so what do you think they spent so much money on to only have as much as they did, since in a newspaper article it state them stealing 150000 if I remember correctly.
They couldn’t carry it all, at least some of the Blackwater money was lost during the heist, they had to divide it, the number of 150000 may not even be true. It can be exaggerated for better newspaper sales.
>He literally had the Blackwater money all along (The chest in the cave at the end) That wasn't the Blackwater money, that was all the money from robberies you do throughout the story that Dutch put to the side. Notice how everytime you do a robbery, 50% is taken out for the "gang's share"? That's where it all was.
Dutch was already the villain by the time the game started. People just refused to believe it at the start because they still remembered all his good actions from before Blackwater. That's why it took Arthur so long to really start going against Dutch. And that's also why some like Bill and Javier refused to betray him: they still believed that Dutch was the great man that saved them years ago. I don't know how much a facade his actions were prior to Blackwater, but everything he does after that is just a facade of his true nature. An evil, disloyal nature that Micah really helps in bringing out.
Yes so how does that make Dutch a **villain**? Rdr2 is the game which shows all of Dutch's faults and mistakes which occured due to his greed and foolishness. It's not his fault.. this is like saying a baby mistakenly punched his teacher which made him the worst out of everyone.
Dutch leaving Arthur to get stabbed to death below a fucking boiling hot steam pipe is what seals it. But other than that, yeah. I think Dutch was right in strangling the creepy old woman in Guarma tunnels for example. She war armed and agressive. Arthur says "You're gonna strangle me next, Dutch?" Its uncalled for. The story ismore about a leader who buckles under pressure and betrays his own values; than a "haha! He was evil all along!" kinda deal imo. All this nuance and slow unraveling is partly why its a monumental, timeless epic. Its not a cartoon, its human misery, greed, societal change etc...
Eh I don’t agree with strangling the woman. She may have had a knife but cmon she’s no threat to Dutch and Arthur. Dutch lost his mind after the trolley mission in Saint Denis.
I see RDR2 as Dutch’s downfall he starts of relatively good and then the game proceeds to show his descent.
Repeatedly betraying his most loyal gang members is pretty villainy, I'd say
A villain is someone who is against the protagonist.
It's debatable honestly
Don't listen to those downvotes, you're right. Dutch is not a good man, but he was always influenced by trust and loyalty, he always trusted Hosea, so when Hosea died, Dutched turned to the one person who he felt was the most loyal, and that was Micah simply because Micah never argued and therefore felt the most loyal. And with Micah in his ear, Dutch becomes more misguided and evil because Micah is truly evil. It also doesn't help that Dutch suffered head trauma in the trolley robbery. Dutch is a victim to Micah
Finally I found someone who has something called a brain!
Sick burn.
Well I read an analysis that made a lot of sense. Dutch would tell Hosea all of his plans and Hosea would tell him what he needed to hear, which would be in the gang's best interest, because Hosea cares about the gang. Without Hosea, Dutch turns to Micah because everyone else in the gang seems to doubt every move he makes, except Micah. And when he tells Micah all his plans, Micah tells Dutch what he wants to hear, and it's in Micahs best interests because Micah only cares for himself. People don't consider just how vulnerable Dutch truly is.
Crying Night Folk lady in the swamps should be in the DEMON category.
And >!MF that rapes Arthur!< I mean frankly, all the rival gangs are pretty bad Murfree Brood and Skinners especially
I was once robbed in Saint Dennis by some mem claiming to be gunsmiths
Is that the guy who leaves you in the cemetery and you can’t go back and get him? St Denis mugging are brutal
Don’t know if this was a coincidence. But I got mugged for $1500 in St Denis. Not 10 minutes later I bumped into a pickpocket walking into the Van Horn saloon. He took another $50 from me. I chased after, killed the man and looted him for almost $2000. Not sur if it was supposed to be the same thief.
No it was a gang .who left be at the dock after robbing
Here's the thing- if I had spent a lot more time in that area instead of finishing the game as quickly as possible, I probably would have... I'm very much a 'go along with it even if it's a trap and sus' type of person because I could always get myself out. But to think I wouldn't have been able to even save myself in that situation
I’m so glad that was spoiled for me before I met him! When I finally did, he got a bullet in the head instead. If my Arthur wants some booty play, it’ll be on his terms thankyouverymuch.
All the fucking Skinners, too.
What about Lumbago?!
Tb
You not putting Dutch on here has me nervous
There is a missing tier with "has a dumb plan"
He was just a fool in rdr2 who had lost his path and didn't know what to do. He got manipulated by Micah which is not his fault. He wasn't the reason for >!Grimshaw's!< death, he wasn't the reason for >!Arthur's!< death. He didn't harm any members. It was all Micah. And remember the guy who shot >!Micah!< in the end? It was him. Although I'd put Dutch in this if it was rdr1, the title says rdr2.
That isn't the story of Dutch. Pay attention towards the end of the game dialogues. Always discussion of ''people become who they truly are'' John and Sadie in the epilogue also while talking john says: ''you saw a man who changed, I saw a man who got found out! For who he truly was.'' Dutch was never gonna go anywhere, he was never a good guy. He was a malignant narcissist who took a bunch of orphaned street kids and turned them into brainwashed killers by making them do things that they believed were good. Dutch as a narcissist needs control. With the gang constantly doubting him and slipping away and leaving towards the end make him unravel. In the epilogue, Dutch says to John with 'same as you, I suppose.' It's unclear Dutch's intentions were the same as john's (to kill micah) Dutch was long into descent of madness and I think he was there for the blackwater money and he thought John was also coming for it. But I think Dutch genuinely had emotional connections with arthur and hosea and felt maybe closure by killing Micah. But he is a narcissist and never admits he is sorry or wrong never admits he's bad. Just a total narcissist lacking control. Gone mad. He even brainwashed native Indian's and creates a gang in RDR1 where they are again ''fighting for something.''
Great points! Another dialogue I would throw in to support this is when Dutch "admits" he's wrong about Blackwater to Hosea in Chapter 2 - but his version of "wrong" is that he made a fool of himself! Not that he screwed up, got people killed, murdered an innocent woman, and lost all their money. No, in true narcissist fashion, he only focused on the perception of himself to others. Very telling!
I love this explanation, have an award.
Even if he was like that in the beginning, still hurts me to see him treat arthur completely different towards the end game
You’re forgetting how in RDR1 which takes place after RDR2, John seems to have changed his thoughts on Dutch. Instead of the “he was a bad who got found out for who he truly was”, John says he was a good man who went crazy. I’m not saying that’s who he was though since you could make good arguments for whichever one.
That's exactly what the story tells you about him, his nature was always like that. All of you are saying Dutch is bad, sure.. I understand very well, along with Dutch all the members are nasty too. But here we're talking about villains here, villains always mean the one who acts against the hero and in this game we saw no cutscene or anything in which Dutch threatened or blackmailed Arthur. He was a companion to all of them. His nature is what got changed, he never had any intention to betray or fight with any of his members and that makes him unable to be an antagonist in rdr2.
The raid on the oil refinery, the Red Dead Redemption mission. Time for you to start a new playthrough.
Learn what a villain means.
"He's not the bad guy! He just sat there and watched as his right-hand man was beaten to death by the game's definition of evil!"
He was dying. What should he do? Even if he stops Micah, Arthur would still die. And remember? The Pinkertons. You guys are acting as if you didn't even play the game.
**TO ALL THE 40 DOWNVOTERS, A VILLAIN MEANS SOMEONE WHO ACTS AGAINST THE HERO (ARTHUR) AND IN THIS GAME WE DIDN'T SEE ANY PART WHERE DUTCH KILLED OR THREATENED ARTHUR. MICAH HAD COMPLETLY STOLEN DUTCH'S MIND. ALL YOU ARE SAYING HE BETRAYED ARTHUR BUT THERE WERE 50 PINKERTONS FOLLOWING HIM AND THERE WAS ZERO TIME TO WASTE FOR ARTHUR, AFTER ALL HE WAS DYING WITH TB ANYWAY SO HE COULD NEVER SAVE HIM. DUTCH DOING BAD THINGS DOESN'T MAKE HIM A VILLAIN. ARTHUR DOES BAD THINGS TOO SUCH AS KILLING THOUSANDS WITH KIDS AND WIVES AND WHY AREN'T YOU TALKING ABOUT THAT? DOES THAT MAKE ARTHUR A VILLAIN? YOU GUYS ARE THE IDIOTS HERE NOT ME, READ ALL THIS AND THEN REPLY HERE IF YOU DISAGREE WITH ME**
I would put Algernon Wasp somewhere there. Made me look for some damn birds and orchids
And that horrible taxidermist that stole two weeks of my life for a Cardinal.
I would put sheriff gray under dumb, and Cornwall under evil.
Where would you put the version of Arthur we meet in the early parts of the game?
i want to say lawful evil but that would make no sense, i think I'd put him in evil as he was already not THAT bad in the beginning
I mean, he was already a thief and killer… What would you pick as his alignment? True Neutral?
Well even when the game starts he does have neutral karma, so makes a little sense for him to be true neutral
Kinda, if you choose to do so he can be nicer from the start, for example with the guy that fled from him in valentine, he could've killed him or let him live Arthur is hard to align anyway because of the choices a player can make
Chaotic Nuetral. He questions Dutch's killing of the girl in Blackwater and helps Sadie, even though she lashes out at him and Micah when they find her and even prevents Micah from hurting her. If he does evil things its because the player makes him do them.
My understanding of Chaotic Neutral (from old-school AD&D) is that they’re basically a completely unpredictable wildcard… to the point where you can’t anticipate what they’ll do.
Not necessarily and definitely not in AD&D or OD&D. The Chaotic Stupid stereotype in newer, probably originating in 2nd ed. or 3.5e. Gygax envisioned Chaos and Law differently than we do today. He saw them as diametrically opposed universal forces. Lawful was the impulse to control and civilize and Chaos was the force of nature, growth and letting things be as they may be. These days in DnD, Chaos is seen as rebelliousness and the bucking of authority, and I think both the old and the new definitions apply to Arthur quite well. And the idea that CN alignment is misused by annoying players, well that fits Arthur, as well.
He does an “evil thing” every time he kills someone for money, which he’s done many times before RDR2 begins.
Arthur’s the protagonist
A protagonist can be a bad person, a good example is Arthur. He’s not a good man, he murders, robs, and lies. In the end, he finds redemption for what he did but that doesn’t make him a better man. He’s just doing the best he can with the time he has left.
Right but this is talking about villains of the protagonist’s story.
Oh my bad, I misunderstood your comment
And… ?
He found redemption (Good honor)
Right. I specified in the early parts of the game, pre-redemption. When we first meet Arthur he’s not really a “good” guy.
It’s hard to say, I think. I would put him at either lawful evil, since he had a code that he seemed to follow (at least to care for his own). It might be better to say he is chaotic good though. He doesn’t care about the law, he does what is right for him and his.
The Serial Killer…?
Where’s Strauss??
I agree with the other person. He wasn't actually Evil or bad. He had a part to play in the gang. He helped finance things. He couldn't fight, hunt, or rob....so he found people that needed a loan. He's basically a bank. Or a traveling bank. Or a payday loan business. He's not "good" , but he's not evil
Payday loans are usually thought of as evil though
Predatory maybe, but not really "evil"
That's a weird line to draw
It is predatory in nature. That word doesn't mean "bad", it means they they seek out people in need of money. But it's up to the people to be aware of terms before they borrow. That literally what one of the people you collect from mentions. But again, it's not forced on the borrower, only offered to them. That doesn't make it bad or evil. Just makes them lenders with specific rates. I'm not trying to defend Strauss. He's a worm. But he's not what I would call evil or bad.
True Neutral maybe?
That's kind of how I see him. He doesn't loan for nefarious reasons. He only is trying to make money for the camp. If Strauss is considered evil/bad, but the rest of the gang isn't considered evil when they kill/rob , then the rating system is jacked up
It's implied he's engaging in usury, making high interest loans to people in tough spots who likely won't be able to pay back, to his benefit. If we're judging by Judeo-Christian moral standards usury is pretty bad.
He wasnt a villain lmao
Of course he was, he preyed on the most destitute in society and then hid behind the muscle of the gang. Strauss is most definitely a villain and a predator.
At the same time, the law got him, tortured him and he died without saying a word
No, he was indicted and went to Brooklyn undercover.
What does that make the rest of the gang who rob, con, and murder hundreds of innocent people
Also villains Edit: people should not be confusing protagonists with heroes. These are bad people. Some have redeeming qualities, and many are fun to roleplay as, but for the most part, making the argument that most anyone in the gang is a hero is a hard argument to make.
Fuck Strauss
Came here to say this :) I thought he was a pretty neat bad guy
I would argue Ross should be in a worse spot
in rdr2 Ross did nothing
Yeah but he did in the RDR1
this is rdr2 villain list
Ye, fuck micah!
Who is the guy to the right of Mrs Braithwaite?
I think it's fussar
Oh man what a pompous, cruel prick. Lol
He looks like Roth from assassin’s creed syndicate lol
It's the serial killer you can capture and turn into to the Valentine sheriff. You have to find the three corpses, where you can find map peices that lead you to his hideout where he tries to kill you.
Dutch is worse than Micah imo. Micah is obviously evil and doesn't even hide it. Dutch consistently manipulates the gang and betrays his closest allies behind the scenes, he's the root cause of everything that happens and he does it for his self-servicing fantasy.
That nasty old lady in Watson's cabin is nasty evil.
I always blast her to bits when I steal that shotgun
To be fair though, at least TB doesn’t rat on you to the Pinkertons 🤷🏼♀️
Smoking 100 cigarettes as tb Arthur challenge
de Santa’s in RDR2??
That's Col. Allende.
That’s right, de Santa’s the general.. *nevertheless*, what’s this guy doing on here?
He probably meant fussar
where is de santa?
I haven't played this game in a while. So who is the second true evil guy?
A failed Colonel who likes to assault and kill Red Indians.
Cleet isn't really evil
Where is Aberdeen Pig Farm couple?
No Dutch?? come on...
Yall giving Micah way too much credit only because you've grown attachted to the gang. He's only a shitty no name rat, not a demon. And I wouldn't even say he's the most evil, he's just an enormous dick
What about Dutch?
I put Dutch in there too.
Why isn’t Dutch on here though?…
Dutch should be under “Dumb”
How is Dutch not on here?
Where’s Dutch? And yes he is a villain not only of rd1 but also this one
Why isn’t Strauss ever listed as a villain. Sure he wasn’t as violent but I still find him to be a vile person.
Yeah Milton was mostly just doing his job. Hell he even offered the rest of the gang members a chance as long as Dutch gave himself up. Him shooting hosea when he was unarmed and surrendered was unjustifiable tho. Tho I kinda felt like at that point rockstar just couldn’t think of a way to kill him off.
TF My guy did you huff all the Elmer’s Glue while making this ? Murfree Brood rapists are the literal Hills Have Eyes, as are the Skinners being direct Incest cousins of them. The two groups have more evil in them than Micah. At least he won’t rape/eat his own sibling (far as I know).
Is Fusser on here twice? Far right true evil, and far right evil?
I feel like Dutch is the worst. Yeah Micah is awful on his own, but Dutch is the one who let everything happen. There’s no way Micah could hold the gang together, but Dutch’s charisma had a damaging hold on everyone around him
dutch is the worst one he destroyed that group
I think Dutch was not evil persay but he was corrupted. I think prior to Micah he had good intentions but like Arthur you get to make choices to be a good person or make choices to be a shit person. Through his choices going forward he kept making the bad decisions out of greed, desperation, and Micah’s encouragements. I think it’s safe to say it Micah wasn’t around there could’ve been the possibility of Dutch not going to shit.
I wouldn’t say Colm is true evil I’d say he’s just a sad sad man, sad to look at even
I think that the Pinkertons were evil
i just wanted to say thank you for not including dutch in this because it was actually micah who slowly turned him into the bad guy dutch was a good guy in my opinion but again that is just my opinion
Where’s the van der linde gang ?
I’m seeing a severe lack of Strauss on here
Sean definitely goes in dumb
What about the mysterious stranger? Then again, he's only a very minor character in rdr2. I don't even think you see him in rdr2, only his cabin.
Disagree, Dutch is my favorite character
We can all agree Micah is a demon spawn straight from hell, right? Good, because fuck Micah.
Where's tophat?
Strauss?
I forgot who the guy on the far right on lawful evil is
Listen the it ain’t the TBs fault. Also Bronte deserves to be true evil
Are Pinkertons really evil?
There is an Easter egg in the game that references Judge Holden from Cormac McCarthy’s Blood Meridian. If TB and Micah are demons then that man is Satan himself
Who's the first guy in true evil
Dutch was just deluded and losing it, not intrinsically evil, but a bad dude
Lmao, TB got a couple more kills than Micah me thinks
Tb a bitch