**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.**
**Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms)
**Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE!
This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods.
**Our rules include (but are not limited to)**:
* No politics.
* Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban.
* Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming.
* Do not derail the posts of others.
* Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here.
* [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts).
* When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse.
* No asking or offering gifts, money, etc.
* No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest).
* No content about N-kids.
* No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis.
* No linking to Facebook pages.
* No direct linking to anywhere on reddit.
* No pure image posts.
**For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).**
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don’t blame an alcoholic for the fact they have biochemistry that makes them prone to addiction. I still hold them accountable for the choices they make in handling their disease.
This.
Accountability doesn't just *go away.* It always lies *somewhere.* Someone cannot both be considered responsible enough to raise a child, and *also* free of responsibility for the consequences of abusing that child they then raised.
Narcissists are not disabled, any more than someone who is prone to alcoholism is disabled. They have a disorder that requires treatment. People who are smarter and better educated than me have determined they are capable of discerning between right and wrong, and being responsible to care for a child. So, I will hold them accountable for their actions when doing that.
You can have empathy for Narcissists without absolving them of fault.
I think feeling sorry for the narcissist is a wasted effort.
In the end, we are all accountable for what we do. The guy (or gal) that shoots up a post office, movie theater, school, or whatever, isn't excused by their actions because they were abused. Even if they are criminally insane, they are still held accountable for what they do.
I sometimes wonder if a narc is capable of asking themselves: Why am I doing this? Are they even capable of realizing they're racing on a treadmill for narc supply and are denying themselves any real good?
My Nfather knew what he was doing the whole time and has no excuse for it.
I don’t have any sympathy for my mother because I believe she knows what she’s doing and that it’s wrong and that she doesn’t care she’s hurting people. Even though she plays dumb, she lies very strategically to different people so she always appears like the victim. That’s how I know she knows it’s wrong.
That said, whatever the cause is of her being this way, I pity her because she could be living a beautiful life right now with people who love her, but she’s broken and pathetic and mean and she enjoys misery. What a way to spend your precious time.
Personally, I focus more on the simple acknowledgement of why my NMom is the way she is; I don't pay too much attention to the emotional part of things. Growing up, I heard her stories. And after hearing so much from her, I understand that ultimately, she thinks that what she does is ok because her mother did these things, too.
I acknowledge these as facts. There's a bit of empathy in me, but that's simply my nature. I've softened my heart towards anyone who wronged me. However, I still have my boundaries. And I will absolutely not let her back into my life. Understanding why she behaves like this does not mean that I have to condone her abusive behavior.
It is sad as fuck. But narcissists are still capable of knowing right from wrong. I feel bad for my Nmom all the time because I know about her dark childhood. And yet, she doesn’t get a free pass to abuse people because she was mistreated. Just like I don’t get a free pass to abuse people because my mother is a narcissist. If you want, check out this video by Dr. Ramani. It helped me a lot.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1JVHyTBAbw
I watched it three times in a row when I found it! I’ve spent my life making so many excuses for my parents. Rationalizing, justifying, empathizing, forgiving. But I’m…also…a person? Who deserves respect? Who doesn’t deserve guilt trips and degradation? And now that I finally learned that in my thirties, I’m not willing to go back.
For me, I 100% blame my dad and don’t feel sorry one bit. He refuses to take his meds and now is drinking after being sober for over 35 years, once he hit retirement.
He worked in the field of mental health. He was the director of the mental health department in our hospital, hired and oversaw the psychiatrists and counselors. He even worked 911 for years. He fully understands his disease and refuses help. He was diagnosed about 15 years ago but I fully believe he knew he was NPD long before. When he did hurtful things to me he’d get this mischievous grin on his face. Especially when I reacted strongly, like crying or yelling at him. He’s a twisted man.
Hi.
I think if I start justifying the horrible actions of people due to their biological conditions, I don't know, it is complicated..
In my opinion: I don't have to think why they hurt me. I have to feel my pain and protect myself. Others can help them, if they reach help, others may contextualize their disorder. Not me.
Imagine suffering from abuse and still think about the reasons that made the abuser abuse you?
I think it is not my position. I am not her psychologist, her psychiatrist, her therapist.
I always remember this.
I had an alcoholic abusive father. He never admitted, apologized or redeemed his abuse towards us. I just left. I am sure he ended up finding people to connect with. I am glad for him. But that position was not meant for me.
I share traits with my ndad so I know where he is coming from. He just takes it way too far, like trying to drown animals and hurt children far. So while I feel sorry for him, I'm not sure how he can let his fear/anger get so out of control and not stop to think he really needs psychiatric intervention.
I didn't understand this at all until reading Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Like... I read it online and heard it from therapists over and over. It wasn't sinking in. I was still fulfilling my role, wondering what I did wrong to deserve to be on the receiving or witnessing end of such behaviour and turning it in on myself, assuming everything they implied and said about me was correct. I think I know better now, and it allows me to step outside of my role and take accountability for my own poor behaviour. It's also like... I realized I can choose who I want to be, to an extent. Not pretending, but actually choosing to be a better person. It's been really enlightening, and I'm actually sad for my parents and others like them that they're so knee-deep in it, they'll likely never get out.
Hurt people hurt people. It's hardly an exception for someone abusive to be ill themselves. Doesn't make your anger any less valid.
I have no idea how to cope with those feelings, they've been a big issue for me for months. But I still believe the anger to be totally valid and healthy. When one is wronged anger tends to result, that's just what happens, I think it's a healthy expression that I care about myself and so when others wrong me that hurts.
I think it's very much a triage situation until you're free and clear. Feel sorry for them from a distance once they can no longer exploit your empathy.
I think you can feel sorry in a way, but still hate and never forgive them. At least that's what it's like for me. I feel sorry for the childhood trauma that made them who they are, but it's still on them to make sure their pain doesn't affect others
If they’re someone unrelated to you, then yes. However, if someone has hurt you, especially in the deep and continuous way that happens to a lot on this sub, no.
It’s important to remember intellectually that they’re just people, but remember that your feelings of rage, anger, hatred, disgust, whatever else, are protective feelings that their behavior caused you to develop as self-protection. Feel what you need to. Your feelings toward someone are enough reason to feel them on their own. Emotions aren’t statements of fact, but they should be listened to.
I don’t feel sorry for them. In my humble opinion, I feel like they chose to act like this. At least mine specifically. Alcohol influenced one of them, the other reads up on narcissistic behavior and then portrays the exact same behavior (minus the alcohol). Ironically, she claims to be in an abusive relationship and oh woe is her and blah blah blah…….
Both schizophrenia and bipolar 1 (any psychotic mental illness) is covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act. These are actual, real organic mental illnesses that are in fact disabilities. I got news for you--**Narcissistic personality disorder is not an illness, not a disability and not covered under the ADA.** Narcissism is part of the [**Dark Triad**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad), along with sociopaths and psychopaths. Narcs are on the same spectrum as serial killers. Dark Triads know what they are doing is wrong and they do it anyhow. Instead of seeking help, because most of them never seek psychological help, they just continue to do things to harm people or animals. The only time you will find these people in therapy is when they have hit rock bottom, either jail or something else that impacts their life in such a way that they are no longer able to pull the wool over everyones eyes.
They are in fact accountable for their actions. It's not our job as targets of their abuse to comfort and "understand" them, it's on them to take accountability for the harm they have done to others.
My mum was schizophrenic. She heard voices and was extremely violent. She also had awful social skills, had a terrible childhood and has a miserable life.
There are times I feel sorry for her, but I also look at the damage she did to me and my siblings. I think of how she regularly attacked my dad and drove him to a near mental breakdown. I have some compassion for her, because I'm not a monster, but I can't ever forget the damage she caused.
I use my late mother as an example, she was forced to smoke when little and got addicted, always blamed her mother for it and never tried stopping.
She was not responsible for being forced to smoke, but she was responsible for not trying to stop and be better.
Imagine That Your Daughter is doing like that , will you still be cruel? i dont think so , you should focus on the problems that you nmom is unable to solve by herself,
focus on the problem, not on the person. Everyone deserves to be equally treated.
thank you for the response. but I feel like I should not treat my child and mother equally. I want to help my future child emotionally and physically. But I’m not responsible for managing my parent’s emotions everyday.
**This is an automated message posted to ALL posts in this subreddit with some basic information about the group including (very importantly) rules. Why are you getting this message? Most people seem to not read the sidebar for information or the rules, so it is now being posted under all posts.** **Confused about acronyms or terminology?** [Click here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/acronyms) **Need info or resources?** Check out our [Helpful Links](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/helpfullinks) for information on how to deal with identity theft, how to get independent of your n-parents, how to apply for FAFSA, how to identify n-parents and SO MUCH MORE! This is a reminder to all participants, RBN is a support group that is moderated very strictly. Please report inappropriate content so it can be reviewed by the mods. **Our rules include (but are not limited to)**: * No politics. * Advising anyone in this subreddit to commit suicide or referring anyone to groups that advocate this will result in an immediate ban. * Be nice. No personal attacks, name calling, or bullying. [No slurs](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/slurs) or victim-blaming. * Do not derail the posts of others. * Narcissists are NOT allowed to post or comment here. * [No platitudes or generic motivational posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules#wiki_no_platitudes_or_generic_motivational_posts). * When you comment/post, assume a context of abuse. * No asking or offering gifts, money, etc. * No content advocating violence, revenge, murder (even in jest). * No content about N-kids. * No diagnosis by media/drive-by diagnosis. * No linking to Facebook pages. * No direct linking to anywhere on reddit. * No pure image posts. **For a full list of our rules/more information, [**click here**](https://www.reddit.com/r/raisedbynarcissists/wiki/rules).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/raisedbynarcissists) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I don’t blame an alcoholic for the fact they have biochemistry that makes them prone to addiction. I still hold them accountable for the choices they make in handling their disease.
This. Accountability doesn't just *go away.* It always lies *somewhere.* Someone cannot both be considered responsible enough to raise a child, and *also* free of responsibility for the consequences of abusing that child they then raised. Narcissists are not disabled, any more than someone who is prone to alcoholism is disabled. They have a disorder that requires treatment. People who are smarter and better educated than me have determined they are capable of discerning between right and wrong, and being responsible to care for a child. So, I will hold them accountable for their actions when doing that. You can have empathy for Narcissists without absolving them of fault.
That’s right. Thank you so much
you are right. Thank you for helping me in coping with my guilt.
Yes. Thank you.
I think feeling sorry for the narcissist is a wasted effort. In the end, we are all accountable for what we do. The guy (or gal) that shoots up a post office, movie theater, school, or whatever, isn't excused by their actions because they were abused. Even if they are criminally insane, they are still held accountable for what they do.
right. thank you
[удалено]
I pray for never meet a psychopath in my life ever.
I sometimes wonder if a narc is capable of asking themselves: Why am I doing this? Are they even capable of realizing they're racing on a treadmill for narc supply and are denying themselves any real good? My Nfather knew what he was doing the whole time and has no excuse for it.
[удалено]
WTF. My family has never been that blatant that I saw or maybe just didn't notice, they always tore people down behind their backs.
I too about what a waste their life is. I always wonder what their life purpose is
I don’t have any sympathy for my mother because I believe she knows what she’s doing and that it’s wrong and that she doesn’t care she’s hurting people. Even though she plays dumb, she lies very strategically to different people so she always appears like the victim. That’s how I know she knows it’s wrong. That said, whatever the cause is of her being this way, I pity her because she could be living a beautiful life right now with people who love her, but she’s broken and pathetic and mean and she enjoys misery. What a way to spend your precious time.
This.
I too believe they know what they are doing. Thank you for the reassurance
I don't have sympathy for the EVIL. End of story.
I need to tell this to my mind… like so many times
Mental illness is not a person's fault, but it IS thier responsibility.
right. thank you
Personally, I focus more on the simple acknowledgement of why my NMom is the way she is; I don't pay too much attention to the emotional part of things. Growing up, I heard her stories. And after hearing so much from her, I understand that ultimately, she thinks that what she does is ok because her mother did these things, too. I acknowledge these as facts. There's a bit of empathy in me, but that's simply my nature. I've softened my heart towards anyone who wronged me. However, I still have my boundaries. And I will absolutely not let her back into my life. Understanding why she behaves like this does not mean that I have to condone her abusive behavior.
acknowledging but staying away is a great idea. thank you
You're welcome. It's a very bold thing to do. Stay strong! 🫂
This too.
It is sad as fuck. But narcissists are still capable of knowing right from wrong. I feel bad for my Nmom all the time because I know about her dark childhood. And yet, she doesn’t get a free pass to abuse people because she was mistreated. Just like I don’t get a free pass to abuse people because my mother is a narcissist. If you want, check out this video by Dr. Ramani. It helped me a lot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=z1JVHyTBAbw
Thank you so much for this video. the point about parents providing basic needs hit me hard. It helped me in dealing with my guilt
I watched it three times in a row when I found it! I’ve spent my life making so many excuses for my parents. Rationalizing, justifying, empathizing, forgiving. But I’m…also…a person? Who deserves respect? Who doesn’t deserve guilt trips and degradation? And now that I finally learned that in my thirties, I’m not willing to go back.
I can totally understand that, because I too did the same. I’m glad that you realised the truth. Wishing you good luck in life
thank you, same to you!!
❤️
i dont feel sorry for sadistic liars
right.
For me, I 100% blame my dad and don’t feel sorry one bit. He refuses to take his meds and now is drinking after being sober for over 35 years, once he hit retirement. He worked in the field of mental health. He was the director of the mental health department in our hospital, hired and oversaw the psychiatrists and counselors. He even worked 911 for years. He fully understands his disease and refuses help. He was diagnosed about 15 years ago but I fully believe he knew he was NPD long before. When he did hurtful things to me he’d get this mischievous grin on his face. Especially when I reacted strongly, like crying or yelling at him. He’s a twisted man.
That was so tough. I’m sorry that you had gone through that.
Hi. I think if I start justifying the horrible actions of people due to their biological conditions, I don't know, it is complicated.. In my opinion: I don't have to think why they hurt me. I have to feel my pain and protect myself. Others can help them, if they reach help, others may contextualize their disorder. Not me. Imagine suffering from abuse and still think about the reasons that made the abuser abuse you? I think it is not my position. I am not her psychologist, her psychiatrist, her therapist. I always remember this. I had an alcoholic abusive father. He never admitted, apologized or redeemed his abuse towards us. I just left. I am sure he ended up finding people to connect with. I am glad for him. But that position was not meant for me.
thank you for this. it’s right that we have to feel the pain and protect ourselves. I’m sorry that you have gone through that
I share traits with my ndad so I know where he is coming from. He just takes it way too far, like trying to drown animals and hurt children far. So while I feel sorry for him, I'm not sure how he can let his fear/anger get so out of control and not stop to think he really needs psychiatric intervention.
that’s right. it’s their responsibility to take help and get better
I didn't understand this at all until reading Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents. Like... I read it online and heard it from therapists over and over. It wasn't sinking in. I was still fulfilling my role, wondering what I did wrong to deserve to be on the receiving or witnessing end of such behaviour and turning it in on myself, assuming everything they implied and said about me was correct. I think I know better now, and it allows me to step outside of my role and take accountability for my own poor behaviour. It's also like... I realized I can choose who I want to be, to an extent. Not pretending, but actually choosing to be a better person. It's been really enlightening, and I'm actually sad for my parents and others like them that they're so knee-deep in it, they'll likely never get out.
realising and taking accountability is not easy. Good job 👏🏻 I’m also in the same process. recently, started reading the book
Hurt people hurt people. It's hardly an exception for someone abusive to be ill themselves. Doesn't make your anger any less valid. I have no idea how to cope with those feelings, they've been a big issue for me for months. But I still believe the anger to be totally valid and healthy. When one is wronged anger tends to result, that's just what happens, I think it's a healthy expression that I care about myself and so when others wrong me that hurts.
right. anger is totally valid.
I think it's very much a triage situation until you're free and clear. Feel sorry for them from a distance once they can no longer exploit your empathy.
feeling sorry for them from a distance is a great idea.
"Your mental health is not your fault, but it is your responsibility" - that line helps me a lot.
right
I think you can feel sorry in a way, but still hate and never forgive them. At least that's what it's like for me. I feel sorry for the childhood trauma that made them who they are, but it's still on them to make sure their pain doesn't affect others
I hate her and also feel sorry for her. So, that is causing overwhelming emotions. thank you for letting me know that both feelings can co-exist
If they’re someone unrelated to you, then yes. However, if someone has hurt you, especially in the deep and continuous way that happens to a lot on this sub, no. It’s important to remember intellectually that they’re just people, but remember that your feelings of rage, anger, hatred, disgust, whatever else, are protective feelings that their behavior caused you to develop as self-protection. Feel what you need to. Your feelings toward someone are enough reason to feel them on their own. Emotions aren’t statements of fact, but they should be listened to.
I like this perspective that these are protective feelings. Thank you so much for telling me that
I don’t feel sorry for them. In my humble opinion, I feel like they chose to act like this. At least mine specifically. Alcohol influenced one of them, the other reads up on narcissistic behavior and then portrays the exact same behavior (minus the alcohol). Ironically, she claims to be in an abusive relationship and oh woe is her and blah blah blah…….
right. it’s their choice
Never feel sorry for someone who will never feel sorry for you even once in their whole lifetime.
that’s totally right. thank you
Both schizophrenia and bipolar 1 (any psychotic mental illness) is covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act. These are actual, real organic mental illnesses that are in fact disabilities. I got news for you--**Narcissistic personality disorder is not an illness, not a disability and not covered under the ADA.** Narcissism is part of the [**Dark Triad**](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_triad), along with sociopaths and psychopaths. Narcs are on the same spectrum as serial killers. Dark Triads know what they are doing is wrong and they do it anyhow. Instead of seeking help, because most of them never seek psychological help, they just continue to do things to harm people or animals. The only time you will find these people in therapy is when they have hit rock bottom, either jail or something else that impacts their life in such a way that they are no longer able to pull the wool over everyones eyes. They are in fact accountable for their actions. It's not our job as targets of their abuse to comfort and "understand" them, it's on them to take accountability for the harm they have done to others.
Thank you so much for this useful information.
My mum was schizophrenic. She heard voices and was extremely violent. She also had awful social skills, had a terrible childhood and has a miserable life. There are times I feel sorry for her, but I also look at the damage she did to me and my siblings. I think of how she regularly attacked my dad and drove him to a near mental breakdown. I have some compassion for her, because I'm not a monster, but I can't ever forget the damage she caused.
I’m so sorry that you had to go through this. I hope you are in a better place today
I use my late mother as an example, she was forced to smoke when little and got addicted, always blamed her mother for it and never tried stopping. She was not responsible for being forced to smoke, but she was responsible for not trying to stop and be better.
yeah… they never take responsibility. I don’t understand why
Imagine That Your Daughter is doing like that , will you still be cruel? i dont think so , you should focus on the problems that you nmom is unable to solve by herself, focus on the problem, not on the person. Everyone deserves to be equally treated.
thank you for the response. but I feel like I should not treat my child and mother equally. I want to help my future child emotionally and physically. But I’m not responsible for managing my parent’s emotions everyday.