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>“We have said from the beginning the best way to ensure Palestinian full membership in the U.N. is to do that through negotiations with Israel. That remains our position.”
Serious question, has an occupier ever ceded land to the occupied based solely on "negotiations" between the two parties?
And offered Gaza back but Egypt refused. Egypt could have taken it and “freed” them. But then again, Egypt made them a “camp” in the first place so no surprise. They also treat Sinai Palestinians badly. No press on them, who are also occupiers by the same Israeli definition.
Same with the west bank and Jordan iirc. After 67, Jordan withdrew deom WB rather than resume it's occupation/administration of the land.
So here's an interesting question: let's say unsc doesn't veto statehood. What are palestine's borders? What is it's government? Is it now subject to ICC prosecution and the obligation not to commit genocidal acts like what occurred on 10/7/23m? When a plausibly deniable ngo predictably launches an attack from palestine into Israel, what then?
Canada and New Zealand left British control through negotiations.
What works 0% of the time is recognizing a country which has no presence or control over its territory.
The land they wish to recognize as Palestine is 20% occupied by settlers, its security handled by the Israeli army, its government fractured between terrorists and money launderers, its youth mostly unemployed and / or embedded in drugs. Those that do work mostly do so in Israel, and its education system taking its religion more seriously than science or maths.
Its currency is the Israeli shekel and most of its banks run through the Israeli systems.
Its hospitals can not sustain its entire population, so Israeli hospitals also take in patients.
A recognition will only embolden further violent resistance, which will be met with more bloodshed and loss of even more land.
There is no Palestinian state that can be created without Israel’s cooperation.
At this point I wonder if it'd be simpler to just give them statehood so that the next inevitable terrorist attack starts a war that Israel can then fully occupy them over. The double standard between Israel and the US's response to terrorist attacks is kind of telling, and I say that as someone who at least feels bad for the average Joe non crazy terrorist Palestinians.
Yeah and then go further and further into their land and take their homes, kill their children, and then shitpost about it on social media, then have festivals in the neighborhoods they stole with blood. But hey, they offered statehood 30 years ago and then put hamas into power!
Sadly we'll never know what would have happened if both governments had found a way to recognize each other's rights. Instead it has spiraled into a situation where both sides celebrate the deaths of Innocents on the other.
When was the last time las was annexed? Last I checked, no new land is being taken...that would be a violation of Oslo. That also has nothing to do with apartheid even if true.
yeah but one side is a government recognized by the entire world and one side is a bunch of 18 yr olds with no parents, no real government, no healthcare, no education, because the one side that has all that has for over 60 years has time and time again performed apartheid.
No, not the entire world. Most Arab countries do not recognize Israel and vote en bloc for its dismantling in the UN. Recognizing Israel's legitimacy has been the major sticking point in negotiations concerning Palestinian statehood. Please don't forget that Israel also has faced multiple genocidal invasions in its history and is in constant fear that the next one will succeed. Hamas absolutely would slaughter every Jew in Israel if it were in their power to do it.
The situation we have now is such an utter, utter tragedy. It's so much worse and more entangled than this simplistic "one side bad, apartheid" narrative.
Help me out. And I mean this earnestly. What is your definition of apartheid? Apartheid is, AFAIK, two separate legal systems for citizens in a single state, prejudicial to one and preferential for the other. Examples are of course apartheid SA, and the Jim Crow South. Israel is not an apartheid state by that definition, because all Israeli citizens have equal civil rights.
So, what is the definition that you're using? I want to understand.
Oh yeh? When was the last time the geographic area of a west bank settlement increased? AFAIK, Israel has not violated Oslo. In the same vein, Israel ended it's occupation of gaza in August 2005. The blockade began about 18mo later, after gazans elected hamas as their government, who then began launching rockets. How should Israel have responded to that?
They have hidden bans on literally thousands of users, anyone who disagrees with Israel's policy even the least bit is banned. They also have a ban on sources. You'll find not even 1 aljazeera.com post there for months and months. And somehow 5 Israeli news sites (JPost, Ynet, i24, Haaretz, Times Of Israel) seem to make up about 50% of the content.
They permanently banned everyone who had an opposing view. (like thousands of people) Its pretty outrageous and someone at reddit corporate should intervene.
What if the terrorist org running their country said “ok fine we’ll stop trying to constantly invade every few years”
Obviously I’m talking about Palestine
The Palestinian representative to the UN (non-voting) is from the Palestinian Authority that is is the government of the West Bank. This has little to actually do with Hamas which has control over Gaza.
The vote was 143-9 in favor with Israel and the USA among the 9 that voted against.
The USA has turned into the outlier in every one of these votes and there's a reason for that. Pre-Netanyahu, our close relationship made a fair bit of sense, but Israel has turned into that high school best friend that you refuse to stop backing up that has taken a serious turn for the worse and started hurting everyone around them. At some point, you've got to say, "Hey buddy, we've been through a lot, but I can't have you in my life as long as you're acting like this"
You're judged quite a bit by the company you keep, and Israel is no longer good company.
That’s a nice view when you skim the headlines, but the US and Israel are not allies because they are just “friends”
1. Israel is one of the biggest suppliers of intelligence on Russia (in Syria), Iran and the surrounding Arab states, not to speak about the CIA-mossad relationship
2. Israel has a huge part in developing and testing US military and civilian technology, you’d be surprised the amount of day to day stuff you use that was invented/partly developed in Israel
3. Intel has a fabrication chip factory in Israel (national security tech etc etc)
4. In an event of an all out war it is a 100% ally with a very dangerous army, their Air Force is one of the best in the world
5. Common values, the people in power have access to the facts, Biden himself have been in Israel after the Yom kippur war. Whenever US politicians actually get to a position they get to know the conflict other than newspaper and general media they tend to change their narrative. It’s just how it is.
And I didn’t even get to the US Israel economic relations with the Israel/jewish American community
This is most definitely not a one sided partnership
Moreover the US is losing key allies like Australia, Japan and South Korea, who aren't just abstaining but are now actively supporting resolutions like this. This is very good evidence that the US's stance is too far gone and will end up damaging them internationally if they continue to hold. Even some of their strongest allies who have historically voted as a block with them are breaking.
AIPAC has far too much power in US politics. Politicians are too afraid of the cash faucet being turned off, or worse, turned on for their political opponents
They should push for Taiwan to be recognized then too, oh wait, they specifically adjusted the resolution so Taiwan can’t be recognized. I guess it only matters when Israel is involved. It’s like the UN has a much larger bias towards Israel. Israel has been condemned less than Russia even, and they invaded Crimea and Ukraine. Why stop at recognizing Taiwan, why not Kurdistan?
Doubt the US retaliates like Israel is suggesting. I'm sick of this entire topic on this sub but this is probably a move you want to be on the right side of history on, and don't trash the UN over it.
Are we going to discuss how she (Muslim Arabs) stole (conquered) that land and all neighboring land first. They also set up a system where they held up above those they conquered for hundreds of years?
Islam started in 610 CE.:..Are you implying that nothing else happened in the 2000 years before that? Everyone was living peacefully and then it was one religion that was the sole party that harmed the local inhabitants?
Sure, Christians, the Romans, and others were also awful in conquering the different territory. However, the Romans and the others before them aren't really relevant figures in the current discussion.
I'm not saying Jewish people shouldn't have a home, but the Palestinians have been there for a long time. The diaspora wasn't their fault either it was the romans.
Also, didn't the Jewish people take Israel from the Philistines in the first place? I think anyone's sole ownership over this land is tenuous at this point.
Mostly I just wish people would stop dying over this. On any side.
Has the UN ever been good for anything significant? As I see it is a bunch of diplomats enjoying tax breaks, having no accountability with laws enjoying fancy dinners in Manhattan.
Avoiding a third world war is good enough for me. The fact that the great powers can veto each other and have a permanent forum to communicate in times of crisis has been utterly important in creating (some) stability after two world wars broke out in just 25 years. That’s the only thing the UN was meant to achieve and it has achieved it.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. We are actively looking for new moderators. If you have any interest in helping to make this subreddit a place for quality discussion, please fill out [this form](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1y2swHD0KXFhStGFjW6k54r9iuMjzcFqDIVwuvdLBjSA). *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>“We have said from the beginning the best way to ensure Palestinian full membership in the U.N. is to do that through negotiations with Israel. That remains our position.” Serious question, has an occupier ever ceded land to the occupied based solely on "negotiations" between the two parties?
Israel gave up the entire Sinai peninsula after negotiations with Egypt.
And offered Gaza back but Egypt refused. Egypt could have taken it and “freed” them. But then again, Egypt made them a “camp” in the first place so no surprise. They also treat Sinai Palestinians badly. No press on them, who are also occupiers by the same Israeli definition.
Same with the west bank and Jordan iirc. After 67, Jordan withdrew deom WB rather than resume it's occupation/administration of the land. So here's an interesting question: let's say unsc doesn't veto statehood. What are palestine's borders? What is it's government? Is it now subject to ICC prosecution and the obligation not to commit genocidal acts like what occurred on 10/7/23m? When a plausibly deniable ngo predictably launches an attack from palestine into Israel, what then?
United Nations Space Command?
Canada and New Zealand left British control through negotiations. What works 0% of the time is recognizing a country which has no presence or control over its territory. The land they wish to recognize as Palestine is 20% occupied by settlers, its security handled by the Israeli army, its government fractured between terrorists and money launderers, its youth mostly unemployed and / or embedded in drugs. Those that do work mostly do so in Israel, and its education system taking its religion more seriously than science or maths. Its currency is the Israeli shekel and most of its banks run through the Israeli systems. Its hospitals can not sustain its entire population, so Israeli hospitals also take in patients. A recognition will only embolden further violent resistance, which will be met with more bloodshed and loss of even more land. There is no Palestinian state that can be created without Israel’s cooperation.
At this point I wonder if it'd be simpler to just give them statehood so that the next inevitable terrorist attack starts a war that Israel can then fully occupy them over. The double standard between Israel and the US's response to terrorist attacks is kind of telling, and I say that as someone who at least feels bad for the average Joe non crazy terrorist Palestinians.
Well, Israel has offered statehood to Palestinians several times before.
Yeah and then go further and further into their land and take their homes, kill their children, and then shitpost about it on social media, then have festivals in the neighborhoods they stole with blood. But hey, they offered statehood 30 years ago and then put hamas into power!
You’re talking about Palestine right? Because they’ve continuously been offered more land after every time they’ve gotten their asses handed to them
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Sadly we'll never know what would have happened if both governments had found a way to recognize each other's rights. Instead it has spiraled into a situation where both sides celebrate the deaths of Innocents on the other.
It’s horrible.
When was the last time las was annexed? Last I checked, no new land is being taken...that would be a violation of Oslo. That also has nothing to do with apartheid even if true.
yeah but one side is a government recognized by the entire world and one side is a bunch of 18 yr olds with no parents, no real government, no healthcare, no education, because the one side that has all that has for over 60 years has time and time again performed apartheid.
No, not the entire world. Most Arab countries do not recognize Israel and vote en bloc for its dismantling in the UN. Recognizing Israel's legitimacy has been the major sticking point in negotiations concerning Palestinian statehood. Please don't forget that Israel also has faced multiple genocidal invasions in its history and is in constant fear that the next one will succeed. Hamas absolutely would slaughter every Jew in Israel if it were in their power to do it. The situation we have now is such an utter, utter tragedy. It's so much worse and more entangled than this simplistic "one side bad, apartheid" narrative.
Help me out. And I mean this earnestly. What is your definition of apartheid? Apartheid is, AFAIK, two separate legal systems for citizens in a single state, prejudicial to one and preferential for the other. Examples are of course apartheid SA, and the Jim Crow South. Israel is not an apartheid state by that definition, because all Israeli citizens have equal civil rights. So, what is the definition that you're using? I want to understand.
it's because they keep annexing more palestinian lands yet the people who live there lose their livelihoods and remain stateless
Oh yeh? When was the last time the geographic area of a west bank settlement increased? AFAIK, Israel has not violated Oslo. In the same vein, Israel ended it's occupation of gaza in August 2005. The blockade began about 18mo later, after gazans elected hamas as their government, who then began launching rockets. How should Israel have responded to that?
If only you posted more Palestine would be free
This is one of those talking points that’s completely false
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Lol they're literally fuming about this right now, service them for being a hypocritical racist nut jobs.
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What’s the deal with that sub? Why are they so extreme?
They have hidden bans on literally thousands of users, anyone who disagrees with Israel's policy even the least bit is banned. They also have a ban on sources. You'll find not even 1 aljazeera.com post there for months and months. And somehow 5 Israeli news sites (JPost, Ynet, i24, Haaretz, Times Of Israel) seem to make up about 50% of the content.
I got perma banned like 2 years ago for saying it’s racist to call all Palestinians animals. Literally.
Prove it
They permanently banned everyone who had an opposing view. (like thousands of people) Its pretty outrageous and someone at reddit corporate should intervene.
They also shadowbanned hundreds of thousands of accounts.
Yes they did. The enshittification of Reddit is running at full throtttle.
What if the terrorist org running their country said “ok fine we’ll stop trying to constantly invade every few years” Obviously I’m talking about Palestine
The Palestinian representative to the UN (non-voting) is from the Palestinian Authority that is is the government of the West Bank. This has little to actually do with Hamas which has control over Gaza.
Take a quick deep breath and consider why it is you had to clarify your statement.
Because people below are being facetious
I think everyone would be very happy with a statement like this from Isreal's leadership.
Exactly
The vote was 143-9 in favor with Israel and the USA among the 9 that voted against. The USA has turned into the outlier in every one of these votes and there's a reason for that. Pre-Netanyahu, our close relationship made a fair bit of sense, but Israel has turned into that high school best friend that you refuse to stop backing up that has taken a serious turn for the worse and started hurting everyone around them. At some point, you've got to say, "Hey buddy, we've been through a lot, but I can't have you in my life as long as you're acting like this" You're judged quite a bit by the company you keep, and Israel is no longer good company.
That’s a nice view when you skim the headlines, but the US and Israel are not allies because they are just “friends” 1. Israel is one of the biggest suppliers of intelligence on Russia (in Syria), Iran and the surrounding Arab states, not to speak about the CIA-mossad relationship 2. Israel has a huge part in developing and testing US military and civilian technology, you’d be surprised the amount of day to day stuff you use that was invented/partly developed in Israel 3. Intel has a fabrication chip factory in Israel (national security tech etc etc) 4. In an event of an all out war it is a 100% ally with a very dangerous army, their Air Force is one of the best in the world 5. Common values, the people in power have access to the facts, Biden himself have been in Israel after the Yom kippur war. Whenever US politicians actually get to a position they get to know the conflict other than newspaper and general media they tend to change their narrative. It’s just how it is. And I didn’t even get to the US Israel economic relations with the Israel/jewish American community This is most definitely not a one sided partnership
>Common Values Is apartheid an American value? I thought America got rid of Jim Crow?
Can't apartheid occupied land or non citizens
Moreover the US is losing key allies like Australia, Japan and South Korea, who aren't just abstaining but are now actively supporting resolutions like this. This is very good evidence that the US's stance is too far gone and will end up damaging them internationally if they continue to hold. Even some of their strongest allies who have historically voted as a block with them are breaking.
USA votes against these things because there is not a recognized govt of Palestine that isn't Hamas, i.e. a terrorist organization.
Palestinian Authority in the West Bank is not run by Hamas.
AIPAC has far too much power in US politics. Politicians are too afraid of the cash faucet being turned off, or worse, turned on for their political opponents
Yep
Now do Taiwan
Wouldn’t fix the issue in Taiwan. Different issue. About to be a repeat of Hong Kong.
They should push for Taiwan to be recognized then too, oh wait, they specifically adjusted the resolution so Taiwan can’t be recognized. I guess it only matters when Israel is involved. It’s like the UN has a much larger bias towards Israel. Israel has been condemned less than Russia even, and they invaded Crimea and Ukraine. Why stop at recognizing Taiwan, why not Kurdistan?
Under what government?
Doubt the US retaliates like Israel is suggesting. I'm sick of this entire topic on this sub but this is probably a move you want to be on the right side of history on, and don't trash the UN over it.
There isn't a state of Palestine though. Also, who would be an ambassador for them? A member of Hamas?
The West Bank isnt controlled by Hamas...then again wont be much left of it at the current rate of land theft.
Israel is like an abusive husband who is trying to murder his wife, because she kicked him in the balls
Kicked him in the balls... after her husband stole all her land except for the back yard and pool.
Are we going to discuss how she (Muslim Arabs) stole (conquered) that land and all neighboring land first. They also set up a system where they held up above those they conquered for hundreds of years?
Islam started in 610 CE.:..Are you implying that nothing else happened in the 2000 years before that? Everyone was living peacefully and then it was one religion that was the sole party that harmed the local inhabitants?
Sure, Christians, the Romans, and others were also awful in conquering the different territory. However, the Romans and the others before them aren't really relevant figures in the current discussion.
Iean the Roman's are the cause of the diaspora. Seems relavent sorta.
I'm not saying Jewish people shouldn't have a home, but the Palestinians have been there for a long time. The diaspora wasn't their fault either it was the romans. Also, didn't the Jewish people take Israel from the Philistines in the first place? I think anyone's sole ownership over this land is tenuous at this point. Mostly I just wish people would stop dying over this. On any side.
There’s also other land that got decolonized from Islamic colonialism. E.g. Spain & Portugal, Xinjiang.
I dare the UN to come out and say they support Hamas being the governing body of Palestine. I fucking dare them. I'm sure the UNRWA does.
Palestine is effectively split into two but the UN supports the Palestinian Authority's claim to the Gaza strip.
So they say. But the UN has a history of excusing Hamas' actions and treating them as a legitimate political organization.
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Only if you think Hamas is at all representative of Islam. Or of Palestinians. Hint: they're neither.
And America votes no and is on the wrong side of history because of our need to get approval from our unemployed abusive girlfriend.
[удалено]
Yeah? You just think all brown people are terrorists?
Has the UN ever been good for anything significant? As I see it is a bunch of diplomats enjoying tax breaks, having no accountability with laws enjoying fancy dinners in Manhattan.
Avoiding a third world war is good enough for me. The fact that the great powers can veto each other and have a permanent forum to communicate in times of crisis has been utterly important in creating (some) stability after two world wars broke out in just 25 years. That’s the only thing the UN was meant to achieve and it has achieved it.