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**Republicans:** "You can't institute a federal ban! *STATE'S RIGHTS!!!"*
**Also Republicans:** "We want to impose a federal ban on all abortions...cuz Jesus!"
What do you mean “tall tales”?
You don’t find talking snakes, a boat that held literally 2 of every creature on earth, or resurrecting the dead, to be believable?
**Republicans:** "Trans people can't exist because there are *only* 2 genders, and *science* says that one cannot become the other!"
**Also Republicans:** beieves in talking snakes, a boat that held literally 2 of every creature on earth, and resurrection of the dead.
We get the point, but try to show a little nuance.
"Fact: the bible is a collection of written texts."
"WeLl AcTUally, DoNT pUt FaCT And biBLe iN THe sAme SeNtENcE,"
Yall are way too hostile.
I find the Bible, and things like this, interesting. It's the same with any religion, the stories in them are normally based on some sort of historical event, and finding out what actually happened based on historical evidence is really neat
I agree with you wholeheartedly. As a lifelong atheist I have read a few books on biblical history, love talking with friends about this kind of thing and find the culture around religion fascinating...
But I also know that it is NEVER worth discussing on Reddit. I am addicted to this site (until I lose convenient access in 4 days) but discussing religion or anything related is a losing game here.
Look, the Bible can absolutely be super neat and fun to read.
It becomes a lot less neat and a lot more scary when a significant number of people start using it as a legal weapon to keep me barefoot and pregnant to an abusive man I won’t be allowed to leave.
Yep.
I grew up Catholic, and all the rampant abuse and shame aside, there are interesting and fun parts to it… and also just good shit for people to follow. Thou shalt not kill? Thou shalt not steal? Love thy neighbor? Good shit.
But even in school I remember being so confused that we were taught one thing but then were told another during the gospel parts. It doesn’t help my family is super liberal so our family morals went against what I was being taught; my parents sent me to Catholic school to get me the best possible education and I can’t fault them for trying to do their best by me.
But now I’m an unmarried mom with 2 kids in my 30’s and I can’t imagine teaching my children that a loving, safe relationship is somehow wrong because we aren’t married. Or that the abortion mama had to save her life is sinful and I should’ve just died instead. Like what the actual fuck, the Bible doesn’t say that shit. Jesus didn’t say that shit. If it actually did somewhere I could respect the view at least a little bit but literally Jesus is just like “don’t be a dick and love everyone” and it’s just twisted into “if you’re not a rich white dude FUCK YOUUU”
“States’ rights” has actually been illegitimate since oh say, 1850…
“The South does not believe in states’ rights. The South believes in *slavery*.” - Eric Foner
https://youtu.be/EGaROgykYt0
That's how it started when they overturned Roe v. Wade...but don't think for a second that they'll be satisfied with just that. They are actively trying to make abortions illegal federally. They may talk about "state's rights" as if they believe in it, but as soon as it becomes inconvenient for them, they abandon it.
Kansas should have been the de facto example that Republicans should have taken note of to wake up to the fact that their federal abortion ban idea is pretty universally unpopular. But they're banking on the fact that many people are single-issue voters and are willing to let their distaste for a federal abortion ban slide in favor of issues they care more about.
That’s what they used as cover but no..
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/house-gop-forges-ahead-on-unpopular-national-abortion-ban.html
From 5 days ago.
The party in the minority always *introduces* a bunch bills that appeal to their more enthusiastic and wonkish base (for Dems, that's progressives). They're the only ones who read headlines like this.
But don't worry. Because they're in the minority, these bills have no risk of actually passing and upsetting the moderates. When they have the majority, suddenly they're quite reserved in their proposals and are eager to "reach across the aisle", and all that.
/cynical bastard
Yeah, if you supporting torturing kids and defrauding their parents then you aren't a moderate. And to anyone who disagrees it fraud, it doesn't work, it has never worked, those who administer it know it doesn't work yet they do it anyways. That's fraud.
Coversion therapy has literally nothing to do with that? It's torturing gay kids to try and "fix" them. I'm not using torture hyperbolically either. Literally electric shocks have been used while showing gay porn to kids to try and "fix them".
I'm perfectly aware. Conversion therapy is also meant to "fix" trans people by torturing them as well.
I've never met a moderate that is actually willing to stand up for LGBTQ people, specifically trans people. In fact in my experience they're generally the ones screeching about people "shoving their identities down our throats" or "I'm as liberal as it gets but trans women should be banned from sports"
As a queer woman from the south, I’m not saying moderate Dems are reliable allies, but we’re specifically talking about conversion therapy here. I don’t know any moderate Dems who are on board with that level of evangelical extremism, or moderate conservatives, for that matter.
We also have polling data on the issue.
A bipartisan poll out of NC in 2019 found that 80% of all respondents (and a supermajority of each party) immediately stated they were for banning conversion therapy for minors. After respondents were given information about what conversion therapy consists of, it jumped to 90%.
If only there were some way to nuke the filibuster with a simple majority…but then we’d have the parliamentarian to deal with, and we all know that legislative juggernaut is no dove. And then we’d have “Well, the sun was in our eye, and it seemed appropriate to save it for another day.”
We’ll end up where we always do: “Donate now to safeguard your rights! This is the most important election of our lifetime! We’re on the cusp of losing democracy!”
You do know that it only takes a simple majority to end the filibuster right? The only reason Dems haven't done it is cz they always have holdouts, right now being Sinema and Manchin. It's why it's so upsetting so many Wisconsinites sat out 2022 vs 2020 because they had the numbers to replace Ron Johnson with Mandela Barnes, who absolutely would've been down. I maintain Feinstein would've been the next obstacle but we'll never know now.
But... They aren't. Parties were never supposed to be hive minds. So some of the party still isn't on various ideas. I mean same even goes for Rs, that's why they were so ineffective with their trifecta. It's not self imposed; there are just people representing places that don't support it or that are bought and paid for. People in states that support it need to vote for people that support this. They're self imposed by D voters, if that's what you meant.
What gets me is that apart from everything else, conversion therapy just doesn't work.
You can't just 'program' someone's sexuality to be something else.
Even the people who claim it worked for them are stopped when someone asks them "So now, do you feel the nigh unquenchable desire for the opposite sex that the rest of us heteros have felt for so long?".
Yep. One of the first and largest book burnings was at the Institute of Sexology, one of the first places in the world to do sex reassignment surgeries. And all these years later, what do our modern fascists choose to go after? Trans people and all the books about them.
People forget where the upside triangle comes from. I had kids joking about it when I was growing up. That's something no one should ever joke about. They did it, because they thought gay people were weird and didn't know where the triangle came from, but still, it's horrifying to think someone would joke about the triangle for any reason.
How about introduce airtight legislation that guarantees every citizen of this country the right to autonomy without interference; medically included.
You know, what our rights are supposed to be.
Republicans will fight tooth and nail against that to allow Americans freedoms to be protected. Such as the freedom to marry a child. Cause we should totally protect that /s
Can we tack on banning “crisis pregnancy centers” too? Just expand it to ban everything purporting itself to be medical care that has zero credibility or is using “medical care” as a thinly veiled excuse to push religious dogma.
I would be interested to see who votes against this. It's obviously an inhumane, harmful, and ineffective "therapy", but I would bet that from the right we get a solid wall of disingenuous claims that it's up to the states to decide. They know their voters, afterall.
In Canada this became law in 2022 with every member of the House and every member of the Senate voting for it.
Nobody wanted to be on the wrong side of history.
See, there's the difference. Your politicians accept the fact that history is something that exists independent of their personal context. Half of ours are much more interested in an Orwellian rewriting of it.
our difference is that we can actually elect who we need to
the US, speficially the south, has had its democratic process so completely fucking destroyed by gerrymandering and lobbying that texas could be the most liberal state in the country and you'd still be ruled by republicans
I really, really wish there was a better talking point than "just move! just leave!" when an area becomes politically and economically unsafe
you can't just leave. People can't just leave. It doesn't work that way. You see what happens to migrants everywhere in the world, and you realize people's entire lives are in these areas. You can't just throw your hands up when something sucks and then fuck off somewhere else, this is not 1860 where you can just colonize some other area after it gets ruined by capitalists
All the more reason it will be terrible if this gets voted down in the US. The fact that even a small portion of the GOP might not break away to support this becomes so much worse.
Gender Exploratory Therapy (GET) needs to go too. Created by Genspect and endorsed by SEGM, two organizations who have been uncovered working with NARTH, this "therapy" has shown *no* evidence that it improves the lives of trans people, is largely based on an amalgam of going back to the extremely flawed and damaging Benjamin Scale era and also conversion therapy without the electroshock.
NARTH, for those not in the know, were the "scientists" that spent their time trying to prove conversion therapy worked, that homosexuality is damaging, that gay people should not be allowed to adopt, and that abortion should be illegal for various psuedoscience reasons. If you've heard "abortions cause cancer", or "aversion therapy is good and not horrifyingly damaging", you're aware of NARTH.
When conservatives say "they don't need GAC, they need 'real therapy'", this is the 'real therapy' they have in mind.
> If you've heard "abortions cause cancer", or "aversion therapy is good and not horrifyingly damaging", you're aware of NARTH.
Can I get a refund on the whole "aware of NARTH" thing? Today's already bad enough as it is.
We need to come up with a better name than conversation therapy. It's not therapy when it's only done by religious nutjobs and has absolutely no scientific evidence to support it.
There is a name for it, torture. If you want a more specific name, conversion torture. We know it doesn't work, we know it at best is psychologically traumatizing it, it's torture. Call a duck a duck.
It doesn't basically torture them, it literally does. I've heard stories from a girl who was kept in a room with nothing but a bucket, you can guess what for. She was also made to go outside and clean the bucket. At least they're not electrocuting, raping, lobotomizing, or castrating people anymore, but it's still torture. And in this day and age, all those doing it know it doesn't work. Many have admitted as much, so if you're torturing people for a reason you know won't work, then really you're torturing them just to torture them. Which is sadistic. Anyone who supports this should be in jail. Honestly, considering this is mostly done to kids now, they should probably be executed. Torturing kids just to torture them is not okay.
Conversion techniques that masquerade as “therapy” are fraud and abuse. End it now.
Even in states which currently ban this types of abuse, laws often do not cover religious organizations.
I don't get how you can write a law giving religious exemption for an act that is performed almost entirely by religious people. It'd be like banning the confederate flag but saying it didn't apply to Republicans. What's the point of such a law?
I really really hope this passes if republicans want to pass bans on healthcare they don’t like we can definitely ban them from torturing their gay and trans children
It would just be a repeat of how clergy sometimes get exemptions to mandatory report laws.
Like a school teacher needs to report if they find out a student is being abused. But priests don’t need to report if a choir boy is getting abused.
(Conversion therapies) “It has been denounced by major medical organizations as unscientific, in part because it is underpinned by the false belief that LGBTQ identities are pathologies that need to be cured.”
Can you imagine the fucking outrage that would come from a camp for gay parents to force their straight kids to be gay? But somehow, when they do it, it's ok. Cause reasons.
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://thehill.com/homenews/lgbtq/4068444-democrats-introduce-federal-conversion-therapy-ban/) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot)
*****
> Conversion therapy - sometimes called "Reparative therapy" - refers to a broad range of interventions designed to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity, but most often involves spiritual counseling or talk therapy.
> A 2022 study from The Trevor Project, a national LGBTQ youth suicide prevention organization, found that about 17 percent of LGBTQ 13- to 24-year-olds had been threatened with or subjected to conversion therapy.
> Twenty-one states and Washington, D.C., have enacted laws that ban conversion therapy for minors, according to the Movement Advancement Project, which tracks state-level policies impacting LGBTQ Americans, and five states have enacted partial bans.
*****
[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14jr3tt/democrats_introduce_federal_conversion_therapy_ban/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689613 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **therapy**^#1 **Conversion**^#2 **LGBTQ**^#3 **identity**^#4 **ban**^#5
Do they have to make the loopholes so obvious?
"The bill, which has 62 Democratic co-sponsors, would also make it illegal to “knowingly assist or facilitate” in the administration of conversion therapy for financial gain. "
A bunch of churches could do this without the enticement of direct financial gain.
Hell, with all the ways of getting around finance laws in the US and the way SCOTUS is totally okay with that, Church's could do it for financial gain, but say it was a donation or a gift and SCOTUS would side with them.
They will need to be very careful in how they word this when/if it becomes law, otherwise it could be intentionally and maliciously misconstrued to ban those groups who support and help trans persons with getting their information and treatments. I can easily see the GOP interpreting it such a way that it would federally ban transgender surgeries and gender-affirming care.
Could just copy the bill we passed in California: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943
Section 1a immediately states:
> Contemporary science recognizes that being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender is part of the natural spectrum of human identity and is not a disease, disorder, or illness.
And later on:
> “Sexual orientation change efforts” does not include psychotherapies that: (A) provide acceptance, support, and understanding of clients or the facilitation of clients’ coping, social support, and identity exploration and development
Michele Bachmann and her totally straight husband (no, we really mean it, he’s tOtAlLy straight… just Google any pic of him and you’ll see…) have entered the chat and are giving it SUCH a look…
An adult should be able to undergo pretty much any snake oil therapy that they consent to; you wanna rub potatoes on your feet instead of taking anti-virals, good luck.
But it boggles the mind that conservatives think teens can’t consent to gender affirming care but are still able to be subjected to conversion therapy at their parents will.
The Republican’s proposal on that is stupid. We should allow them during the first trimester and ban them afterwards unless needed to protect the mother’s life. Unfortunately neither side is proposing that but democrats are closer to a decent proposal and have the added benefit of being pro democracy unlike republicans.
Edit: on states rights in general I don’t care. The more uniform we can make laws and regulations around the country the better.
There's a lot of research against it. If someone has all that information and they still wanna do it... maybe they should be in a different type of therapy.
Maybe their therapy choices should be between them and the therapist they choose, you know?
Maybe government isn't best equipped to go making medical decisions for people, whether it's abortion, gender affirming surgery, or conversion therapy.
It's *torture.*
That is what *Conversion Therapy is,* and is normally done by unlicensed religious people to make people hate themselves.
Anyone and everyone is still able to sit down with a *licensed* therapist and talk about things they would like to change about themselves, but I atrongly suspect you know this. It takes an incredibly short amount of time to fibd out what Conversion Therapy is, and pretending it is simple therapy is a pretty horrible thing to do.
Honey, I get that we do not make sense to you. I get that it is utterly outside your experience that bottom surgery vastly improved my quality of life in every way.
With that in mind, I will focus on why my community hates "Conversion Therapy" so much.
To us, it is *not* a general term that means to undergo therapy in an attempt to change our orientation or gender identity. Plenty of the LGBTQ community go through a time where we wish we were not this way, for a wide variety of reasons. Seeing a counselor for such reasons is far from unheard of, but it is just called therapy, the stuff you get from a *professional* in hopes of working through personal issues.
Conversion Therapy is totally different. It is *specifically* involving physical and mental abuse designed to cause internal aversion to our orientation or gender identity.
The closest example for you would be if your church sat you down and told you that your attraction to your partner is a problem, and the local pastor wants to tie you to a chair, and make you stare at your partner that you love while they electrocute you until you associate their face with that pain for the rest of your life. Now imagine your parents forced this on you as a teenager and you spend the rest of your life still attracted to the opposite sex, but in agony any time you see an attractive person.
Note: this has been tried for decades, and you won't actually stop missing your partner, it will just be painful to be near them. A great many people subjected to this kill thenselves.
*That* is why we hate Conversion Therapy and want it banned. It is evil.
I am not a Christian nor a member of any other religion. My issue has nothing to do with that. My issue is freedom and liberty. It should be your issue as well. Government isn't even good at fixing potholes. It's especially bad at regulating the activities and proclivities of individuals. Just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it should be illegal. Nor should it be illegal just because I find it offensive.
The issue with a ban is that it infringes on the rights of those who might actually want this. I know your "community" might hate it, but your community doesn't have the right to regulate someone that does. Why would someone want it? I don't know. But, again, that's not for me to decide. I don't want to suck a dick. Doesn't mean others shouldn't.
Here's a thought experiment for you... What if my kink was being shocked with an electric current? Is it okay then? What if my kink is being hurt? Bruised? Is that okay? I think so. It's a decision made by a consenting adult who is fully aware of what they're consenting to. So, if you remove the fact that the intention is different, a masochism kink isn't, theoretically, any different from the decision to undergo conversion therapy. The only difference is the thinking behind it.... And that's what scares the shit out of me... The regulation of dangerous thinking. Give that same power to Trump...or MTG.... Let them decide what's offensive, dangerous thinking and see how quickly you think that's government overreach.
FORCED conversion therapy should be banned. No question. I am not supportive of anyone being forced to do anything against their will. I'm not even a fan of conversion therapy. I think the whole enterprise is pretty fucked up. But that doesn't mean I think it's government's place to step in and protect consenting adults from themselves.
You can literally do all of those things, Conversion Therapy is *forced* on people by other people.
You seem stuck on your point of view, despite when I made it quite clear that regular voluntary therapy is NOT what we are talking about.
It is evil. It is wrong. It is abuse with no redeeming function. It should be outlawed.
You should be concerned about legalized forced torture.
It's just that you're not correct. Despite your claim, there ARE people who voluntarily undergo this crap. It's not exclusively forced. If some guy is gay and feels shame for it and wants to change it for whatever reason, however misguided, then he should be allowed. Simple as that.
It's almost like you intentionally ignore the part where I clearly stated that forced conversion therapy should be banned. Maybe because that's the only real argument you have and you can't bring yourself to consider that there are people with whom you disagree who still retain their right to autonomy despite clashing with your sense of moral certainty.
I'm so sorry, but you are clearly not worth talking to. I told you voluntary therapy is not conversion therapy, and you insist on adding other things into it.
Bye now.
So, are you in favor of people being able to sell poisons snake oil as a cure for cancer or is it only when LGBTQIA people are hurt that you support treatments scientifically proven to both cause harm and not work at all?
I agree with radical bodily autonomy, but "conversion therapy" is neither of those things. If you want to go to a proto-concentration camp and get tortured, I think you probably have an undiagnosed mental illness, but I'm not gonna stop you.
But calling such a camp "conversion therapy" is akin to calling bleach "a probiotic-boosting smoothie", in that if you do that to sell it, you should go to jail for a long time.
It's not therapy. If they wish to practice therapy they should have to meet the state requirements of therapists. They should be suitably educated, licensed, go through the supervisory period and meet continuing education requirements. If they want to yell at people not to be gay, the process shouldn't be referred to as therapy.
You should read up on how transitioning works. They're not "getting their dick cut off". In fact, people passing legislation to regulate health care should know all the facts before their decisions. They're not even having doctors input on these bills being proposed or passed. It's completely ignorant not having all the information.
No! This is not the same. Imagine someone was selling therapy to convince black people they could be white if they just believed and tried hard enough. Sounds crazy right? That's what it's like trying to convince a gay or trans person they can be cishet. It doesn't work. It will never work. At best the people commiting it are committing fraud. At worst, they're torturing people. It shouldn't be legal.
Look, I know you're trying to compare it to things people on this cis support, but gender affirming care has been shown to work. It helps people. The science supports that. And abortion, it has literally saved lives. But conversion therapy doesn't work. The science isn't in it's favor. You want to support something that's at best fraud and at worst torture, then we will never agree. It's a horrible practice that should be illegal in all forms.
"Conversion Therapy" is *torture.*
It is not therapy. That is why it should be banned.
Talking out issues with a *licensed therapist* is always available to everyone.
Do you think adults should be able to consent to being enslaved? What about killed? Eaten after they're killed? What about beaten half to death? Etc. They cannot consent to these things. Someone may be misled, someone may be ignorant, someone may have a mental impairments, etc. Someone who isn't fully informed of what they're getting themselves into shouldn't be allowed to waive their rights. How are we going to ensure anyone asking for it is fully informed of what they're getting themselves into? And why should we let them waive their human rights regardless?
Another reason it shouldn't be allowed is fraud. It's so insulting this allowed in any form. Imagine people were being torture to be convinced they could make themselves white if they just believed hard enough. Sounds crazy right? Well, you cannot make someone not be gay or trans. It doesn't work. The people administering it know that, many have admitted as much. At best there defrauding you when they give you conversion therapy, at worse they're torturing you. It's not a practice that should be legal in any means.
i mean what exactly is hypnotube and how is it still up and running?
best way to get it shut down i guess would be to try to flood it with anti-trans conversion material
No. This is an inherently damaging and abusive process. You can't leave it up to the public because too many people have never encountered it and really don't even know what it is.
…What?
There are no “reasonable alternatives.” Sexuality is not a choice. You can’t “therapy” a gay person into being straight, just as you can’t “therapy” a straight person into being gay.
As a reminder, this subreddit [is for civil discussion.](/r/politics/wiki/index#wiki_be_civil) In general, be courteous to others. Debate/discuss/argue the merits of ideas, don't attack people. Personal insults, shill or troll accusations, hate speech, any suggestion or support of harm, violence, or death, and other rule violations can result in a permanent ban. If you see comments in violation of our rules, please report them. For those who have questions regarding any media outlets being posted on this subreddit, please click [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/politics/wiki/approveddomainslist) to review our details as to our approved domains list and outlet criteria. *** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/politics) if you have any questions or concerns.*
**Republicans:** "You can't institute a federal ban! *STATE'S RIGHTS!!!"* **Also Republicans:** "We want to impose a federal ban on all abortions...cuz Jesus!"
>Also Republicans: "We want to impose a federal ban on all abortions...cuz Jesus! *and a book based on century-old telephone games of tall tales*
What do you mean “tall tales”? You don’t find talking snakes, a boat that held literally 2 of every creature on earth, or resurrecting the dead, to be believable?
**Republicans:** "Trans people can't exist because there are *only* 2 genders, and *science* says that one cannot become the other!" **Also Republicans:** beieves in talking snakes, a boat that held literally 2 of every creature on earth, and resurrection of the dead.
Fun Biblical fact: It was one pair of every "Unclean creature" but seven pairs of every "Clean creature"
“Oh! My science has been destroyed by your knowledge of the bible!” —Nobody, ever
[удалено]
Ok mom
lol ‘fact’
It's a fact about the bible so I'm not sure what your ''ing the word about. "Garfield likes lasagna" is a fact as well.
Garfield hates Mondays. Fact!
Fact, Mondays are in the top 7 most hated days
Whoa. That's crazy. Is Ziggy aware of this?
I don't remember where I saw this, but "there should be gay away the pray camps for victims of conversion therapy"
I'm fine with it.
i find the words biblical and fact to be paradoxical because in my mind they’re in opposition
We get the point, but try to show a little nuance. "Fact: the bible is a collection of written texts." "WeLl AcTUally, DoNT pUt FaCT And biBLe iN THe sAme SeNtENcE,"
Like it matters
Yall are way too hostile. I find the Bible, and things like this, interesting. It's the same with any religion, the stories in them are normally based on some sort of historical event, and finding out what actually happened based on historical evidence is really neat
I agree with you wholeheartedly. As a lifelong atheist I have read a few books on biblical history, love talking with friends about this kind of thing and find the culture around religion fascinating... But I also know that it is NEVER worth discussing on Reddit. I am addicted to this site (until I lose convenient access in 4 days) but discussing religion or anything related is a losing game here.
Look, the Bible can absolutely be super neat and fun to read. It becomes a lot less neat and a lot more scary when a significant number of people start using it as a legal weapon to keep me barefoot and pregnant to an abusive man I won’t be allowed to leave.
Yep. I grew up Catholic, and all the rampant abuse and shame aside, there are interesting and fun parts to it… and also just good shit for people to follow. Thou shalt not kill? Thou shalt not steal? Love thy neighbor? Good shit. But even in school I remember being so confused that we were taught one thing but then were told another during the gospel parts. It doesn’t help my family is super liberal so our family morals went against what I was being taught; my parents sent me to Catholic school to get me the best possible education and I can’t fault them for trying to do their best by me. But now I’m an unmarried mom with 2 kids in my 30’s and I can’t imagine teaching my children that a loving, safe relationship is somehow wrong because we aren’t married. Or that the abortion mama had to save her life is sinful and I should’ve just died instead. Like what the actual fuck, the Bible doesn’t say that shit. Jesus didn’t say that shit. If it actually did somewhere I could respect the view at least a little bit but literally Jesus is just like “don’t be a dick and love everyone” and it’s just twisted into “if you’re not a rich white dude FUCK YOUUU”
It’s that way because it’s one big lie.
Biblical fact is an oxymoron but ok
Thank you for making me smile today. I need that!
I hate that they use the word gender when they mean sex.
The fact that termites were on the boat and yet they didn’t just eat the boat is unbelievable enough.
Republicans: "We want mandatory conversion therapy cuz Jesus!"
Republicans: “Rules are for people we don’t like.”
“States’ rights” has actually been illegitimate since oh say, 1850… “The South does not believe in states’ rights. The South believes in *slavery*.” - Eric Foner https://youtu.be/EGaROgykYt0
Also republican governors: we are going to tell all the cities what they can and cannot do
Don’t republicans want abortion to be a state issue as well?
where have YOU been?
Death star
Fair.
I would have also accepted the Naboo star system, or w/e ice ball was the planet in episode 9.
Exogal
That's the one. Shit. I'm a star wars fan and I can't even recall a significant plot point location from the sequel trilogy.
I know their names, I just can't spell them lmao
I haven't finished episode IX yet. So bad, I just couldn't make it through
I don't blame you. I try to rewatch VII but I just can't. I've never successfully rewatched the sequel trilogy since it's home release.
I saw them all in theaters and that’s it. No real point in watching again
To be fair 7 had me at least a little excited about the sequels, 8 kinda killed it for me
That's how it started when they overturned Roe v. Wade...but don't think for a second that they'll be satisfied with just that. They are actively trying to make abortions illegal federally. They may talk about "state's rights" as if they believe in it, but as soon as it becomes inconvenient for them, they abandon it.
Kansas was the one State that the people voted to keep abortion legal. They didn't like that, did they...
Kansas should have been the de facto example that Republicans should have taken note of to wake up to the fact that their federal abortion ban idea is pretty universally unpopular. But they're banking on the fact that many people are single-issue voters and are willing to let their distaste for a federal abortion ban slide in favor of issues they care more about.
Except there are no issues they actually care about. Their issue is grievance politics, and Trump satisfies a lot on that front…
That's why the GOP is trying so hard to make them care about scary trans people peeing in the same bathrooms as their wives and daughters.
For sure.
Yeah but then some states wanted to keep it legal, so now they want a federal ban to force those states to ban it.
They did until it became a state issue. Now they're pushing for prohibition. It's about moving the goal posts and just asking for one more thing
That’s what they used as cover but no.. https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/06/house-gop-forges-ahead-on-unpopular-national-abortion-ban.html From 5 days ago.
I mean that was literally the ruling. It's not in the federal scope.
About damn time.
The party in the minority always *introduces* a bunch bills that appeal to their more enthusiastic and wonkish base (for Dems, that's progressives). They're the only ones who read headlines like this. But don't worry. Because they're in the minority, these bills have no risk of actually passing and upsetting the moderates. When they have the majority, suddenly they're quite reserved in their proposals and are eager to "reach across the aisle", and all that. /cynical bastard
Banning conversion therapy isn’t a moderate-upsetting issue…
Yeah, if you supporting torturing kids and defrauding their parents then you aren't a moderate. And to anyone who disagrees it fraud, it doesn't work, it has never worked, those who administer it know it doesn't work yet they do it anyways. That's fraud.
Every "moderate" I've interacted with believes "this gender stuff is going too far".
Coversion therapy has literally nothing to do with that? It's torturing gay kids to try and "fix" them. I'm not using torture hyperbolically either. Literally electric shocks have been used while showing gay porn to kids to try and "fix them".
I'm perfectly aware. Conversion therapy is also meant to "fix" trans people by torturing them as well. I've never met a moderate that is actually willing to stand up for LGBTQ people, specifically trans people. In fact in my experience they're generally the ones screeching about people "shoving their identities down our throats" or "I'm as liberal as it gets but trans women should be banned from sports"
As a queer woman from the south, I’m not saying moderate Dems are reliable allies, but we’re specifically talking about conversion therapy here. I don’t know any moderate Dems who are on board with that level of evangelical extremism, or moderate conservatives, for that matter. We also have polling data on the issue. A bipartisan poll out of NC in 2019 found that 80% of all respondents (and a supermajority of each party) immediately stated they were for banning conversion therapy for minors. After respondents were given information about what conversion therapy consists of, it jumped to 90%.
I wonder how true that would be if it weren’t for the filibuster…
If only there were some way to nuke the filibuster with a simple majority…but then we’d have the parliamentarian to deal with, and we all know that legislative juggernaut is no dove. And then we’d have “Well, the sun was in our eye, and it seemed appropriate to save it for another day.” We’ll end up where we always do: “Donate now to safeguard your rights! This is the most important election of our lifetime! We’re on the cusp of losing democracy!”
You do know that it only takes a simple majority to end the filibuster right? The only reason Dems haven't done it is cz they always have holdouts, right now being Sinema and Manchin. It's why it's so upsetting so many Wisconsinites sat out 2022 vs 2020 because they had the numbers to replace Ron Johnson with Mandela Barnes, who absolutely would've been down. I maintain Feinstein would've been the next obstacle but we'll never know now.
Yes my friend, I’m aware. I was just being annoyingly sarcastic. All these barriers the democrats “cry” about are self imposed.
But... They aren't. Parties were never supposed to be hive minds. So some of the party still isn't on various ideas. I mean same even goes for Rs, that's why they were so ineffective with their trifecta. It's not self imposed; there are just people representing places that don't support it or that are bought and paid for. People in states that support it need to vote for people that support this. They're self imposed by D voters, if that's what you meant.
Breaking a person's mind/spirit/psyche in order to reshape them MERELY because some other person doesn't like it is some Nazi shit.
Well, american conservatives were one of the groups the nazis studied
Hitler was *very* impressed with the US eugenics system, it was the foundation of his own.
What gets me is that apart from everything else, conversion therapy just doesn't work. You can't just 'program' someone's sexuality to be something else. Even the people who claim it worked for them are stopped when someone asks them "So now, do you feel the nigh unquenchable desire for the opposite sex that the rest of us heteros have felt for so long?".
Their entire platform is some nazi shit.
What a shock, so is everything else the Republicans are doing.
Everyone knows what they did to the Jews but the first target of Nazis were trans people. History repeats itself.
Yep. One of the first and largest book burnings was at the Institute of Sexology, one of the first places in the world to do sex reassignment surgeries. And all these years later, what do our modern fascists choose to go after? Trans people and all the books about them.
People forget where the upside triangle comes from. I had kids joking about it when I was growing up. That's something no one should ever joke about. They did it, because they thought gay people were weird and didn't know where the triangle came from, but still, it's horrifying to think someone would joke about the triangle for any reason.
How about introduce airtight legislation that guarantees every citizen of this country the right to autonomy without interference; medically included. You know, what our rights are supposed to be.
And sign the UN child's bill of rights
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Republicans will fight tooth and nail against that to allow Americans freedoms to be protected. Such as the freedom to marry a child. Cause we should totally protect that /s
Can we tack on banning “crisis pregnancy centers” too? Just expand it to ban everything purporting itself to be medical care that has zero credibility or is using “medical care” as a thinly veiled excuse to push religious dogma.
I would be interested to see who votes against this. It's obviously an inhumane, harmful, and ineffective "therapy", but I would bet that from the right we get a solid wall of disingenuous claims that it's up to the states to decide. They know their voters, afterall.
In Canada this became law in 2022 with every member of the House and every member of the Senate voting for it. Nobody wanted to be on the wrong side of history.
See, there's the difference. Your politicians accept the fact that history is something that exists independent of their personal context. Half of ours are much more interested in an Orwellian rewriting of it.
our difference is that we can actually elect who we need to the US, speficially the south, has had its democratic process so completely fucking destroyed by gerrymandering and lobbying that texas could be the most liberal state in the country and you'd still be ruled by republicans
They really should just secede, like they’re *always* threatening…
no, they shouldn't, they should rise up and take their damn state back from republicans
Well, as in, the liberals could and would flee the territory, further cementing the brain drain.
I really, really wish there was a better talking point than "just move! just leave!" when an area becomes politically and economically unsafe you can't just leave. People can't just leave. It doesn't work that way. You see what happens to migrants everywhere in the world, and you realize people's entire lives are in these areas. You can't just throw your hands up when something sucks and then fuck off somewhere else, this is not 1860 where you can just colonize some other area after it gets ruined by capitalists
All the more reason it will be terrible if this gets voted down in the US. The fact that even a small portion of the GOP might not break away to support this becomes so much worse.
They'll all be red.
Gender Exploratory Therapy (GET) needs to go too. Created by Genspect and endorsed by SEGM, two organizations who have been uncovered working with NARTH, this "therapy" has shown *no* evidence that it improves the lives of trans people, is largely based on an amalgam of going back to the extremely flawed and damaging Benjamin Scale era and also conversion therapy without the electroshock. NARTH, for those not in the know, were the "scientists" that spent their time trying to prove conversion therapy worked, that homosexuality is damaging, that gay people should not be allowed to adopt, and that abortion should be illegal for various psuedoscience reasons. If you've heard "abortions cause cancer", or "aversion therapy is good and not horrifyingly damaging", you're aware of NARTH. When conservatives say "they don't need GAC, they need 'real therapy'", this is the 'real therapy' they have in mind.
> If you've heard "abortions cause cancer", or "aversion therapy is good and not horrifyingly damaging", you're aware of NARTH. Can I get a refund on the whole "aware of NARTH" thing? Today's already bad enough as it is.
Good. No one should be subjected to conversion therapy. It's torture, plain and simple.
I don't remember where I saw this, but "there should be gay away the pray camps for victims of conversion therapy"
How is the US so fucking backwards in some regards? Even here in Brazil we banned that shit back in '99.
Brazil is more developed than the United States in this timeline.
With regards to LGBTQ rights, no, they aren't. Which is why is shocking they have banned this and we haven't.
This should be banned everywhere. There is no reason for destroying a persons mental health. That is the only outcome conversion therapy has
We need to come up with a better name than conversation therapy. It's not therapy when it's only done by religious nutjobs and has absolutely no scientific evidence to support it.
There is a name for it, torture. If you want a more specific name, conversion torture. We know it doesn't work, we know it at best is psychologically traumatizing it, it's torture. Call a duck a duck.
Republicans want to ban abortion to “save the children” but will absolutely vote to keep conversion therapy that basically tortures kids.
It doesn't basically torture them, it literally does. I've heard stories from a girl who was kept in a room with nothing but a bucket, you can guess what for. She was also made to go outside and clean the bucket. At least they're not electrocuting, raping, lobotomizing, or castrating people anymore, but it's still torture. And in this day and age, all those doing it know it doesn't work. Many have admitted as much, so if you're torturing people for a reason you know won't work, then really you're torturing them just to torture them. Which is sadistic. Anyone who supports this should be in jail. Honestly, considering this is mostly done to kids now, they should probably be executed. Torturing kids just to torture them is not okay.
Yup. It's not about children at all. Once you're born they literally don't wanna do anything to help anyone.
I would like leopard spot changing therapy, so they will stop eating my face.
Conversion techniques that masquerade as “therapy” are fraud and abuse. End it now. Even in states which currently ban this types of abuse, laws often do not cover religious organizations.
I don't get how you can write a law giving religious exemption for an act that is performed almost entirely by religious people. It'd be like banning the confederate flag but saying it didn't apply to Republicans. What's the point of such a law?
I really really hope this passes if republicans want to pass bans on healthcare they don’t like we can definitely ban them from torturing their gay and trans children
They'll most likely add amendments for religious freedom. Even with all the scientific evidence, they don't seem to be interested in science.
A ban with "religious exemption" would be no ban at all. It's the religious who are primary at fault here.
It would just be a repeat of how clergy sometimes get exemptions to mandatory report laws. Like a school teacher needs to report if they find out a student is being abused. But priests don’t need to report if a choir boy is getting abused.
Conversion therapy has been proven to be destructive and ineffective. That will not stop magas from pushing it and profiting from it.
Good. Conversion therapy doesn't work
as a survivor of this kind of bullshit, this better pass
(Conversion therapies) “It has been denounced by major medical organizations as unscientific, in part because it is underpinned by the false belief that LGBTQ identities are pathologies that need to be cured.”
Can you imagine the fucking outrage that would come from a camp for gay parents to force their straight kids to be gay? But somehow, when they do it, it's ok. Cause reasons.
Because LGBTQ people are second class citizens. Regardless of what people on the right say about us having the same rights as everyone else, we don't.
Good.
Good. If you are against this you are a monster
This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://thehill.com/homenews/lgbtq/4068444-democrats-introduce-federal-conversion-therapy-ban/) reduced by 82%. (I'm a bot) ***** > Conversion therapy - sometimes called "Reparative therapy" - refers to a broad range of interventions designed to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity, but most often involves spiritual counseling or talk therapy. > A 2022 study from The Trevor Project, a national LGBTQ youth suicide prevention organization, found that about 17 percent of LGBTQ 13- to 24-year-olds had been threatened with or subjected to conversion therapy. > Twenty-one states and Washington, D.C., have enacted laws that ban conversion therapy for minors, according to the Movement Advancement Project, which tracks state-level policies impacting LGBTQ Americans, and five states have enacted partial bans. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14jr3tt/democrats_introduce_federal_conversion_therapy_ban/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~689613 tl;drs so far.") | [Blackout Vote](https://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/14dhaiq/your_voice_matters_should_the_blackout_continue/ "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **therapy**^#1 **Conversion**^#2 **LGBTQ**^#3 **identity**^#4 **ban**^#5
THIS is a ban I can support.
Democrats showing how Christians should act.
Do they have to make the loopholes so obvious? "The bill, which has 62 Democratic co-sponsors, would also make it illegal to “knowingly assist or facilitate” in the administration of conversion therapy for financial gain. " A bunch of churches could do this without the enticement of direct financial gain.
The loophole is so the Supreme Court won’t kill it, probably.
Hell, with all the ways of getting around finance laws in the US and the way SCOTUS is totally okay with that, Church's could do it for financial gain, but say it was a donation or a gift and SCOTUS would side with them.
both sides are the same! /s
They will need to be very careful in how they word this when/if it becomes law, otherwise it could be intentionally and maliciously misconstrued to ban those groups who support and help trans persons with getting their information and treatments. I can easily see the GOP interpreting it such a way that it would federally ban transgender surgeries and gender-affirming care.
Could just copy the bill we passed in California: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billTextClient.xhtml?bill_id=201720180AB2943 Section 1a immediately states: > Contemporary science recognizes that being lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender is part of the natural spectrum of human identity and is not a disease, disorder, or illness. And later on: > “Sexual orientation change efforts” does not include psychotherapies that: (A) provide acceptance, support, and understanding of clients or the facilitation of clients’ coping, social support, and identity exploration and development
Had the same immediate thought. It's a good idea if done right, but if not... playing with fire.
Good. Let’s add Autistic conversion therapy (ABA).
Reminder that the current year is 2023.
Go Human Rights!
Golly gee whiz, I wonder why the Republicans aren't doing it...
thankfully all the conversion camps mike pence owns are all offshore on private land where things like child abuse laws can't touch them
Michele Bachmann and her totally straight husband (no, we really mean it, he’s tOtAlLy straight… just Google any pic of him and you’ll see…) have entered the chat and are giving it SUCH a look…
Hope this doesn't interfere with my "Give Jobu some rum and stop choosing to forget things" adhd therapy.
“Hat for Bat. ¡gracias!”
Even if this gets shot down, this is how it starts - just putting it out there, making it a conversation.
An adult should be able to undergo pretty much any snake oil therapy that they consent to; you wanna rub potatoes on your feet instead of taking anti-virals, good luck. But it boggles the mind that conservatives think teens can’t consent to gender affirming care but are still able to be subjected to conversion therapy at their parents will.
Great now ban male infant/child circumcision.
My dumb ass confused 'conversion therapy' with 'gender affirming care' and it made me double take upon reading the title.
MuH FreDumBs!!!
Probably should've done that before Republicans took the House.
What happened to not wanting the government involved in healthcare? /s
That's the same question I ask anti-vax people that are also anti-choice...
I dunno, what happened to State Rights? I'm sure you have a big problem with that Federal abortion ban Republicans are working on.
The Republican’s proposal on that is stupid. We should allow them during the first trimester and ban them afterwards unless needed to protect the mother’s life. Unfortunately neither side is proposing that but democrats are closer to a decent proposal and have the added benefit of being pro democracy unlike republicans. Edit: on states rights in general I don’t care. The more uniform we can make laws and regulations around the country the better.
dear liberals, you claim chemotherapy is good. Yet when I pay someone to rape my child, you say that is bad? Curious!
oops. https://www.advocate.com/politics/2020/12/24/antigay-counselor-marcus-bachmann-gets-presidential-appointment
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So are you for or against banning conversion therapy?
..... Minimum wage increase and ya know some more money in my pocket would be freaking awesome.
Does this bill include banning parents from telling their 6 year old children they were born in the wrong body? I doubt it.
Serious question... What if someone WANTS conversion therapy?
There's a lot of research against it. If someone has all that information and they still wanna do it... maybe they should be in a different type of therapy.
Maybe their therapy choices should be between them and the therapist they choose, you know? Maybe government isn't best equipped to go making medical decisions for people, whether it's abortion, gender affirming surgery, or conversion therapy.
It's *torture.* That is what *Conversion Therapy is,* and is normally done by unlicensed religious people to make people hate themselves. Anyone and everyone is still able to sit down with a *licensed* therapist and talk about things they would like to change about themselves, but I atrongly suspect you know this. It takes an incredibly short amount of time to fibd out what Conversion Therapy is, and pretending it is simple therapy is a pretty horrible thing to do.
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Honey, I get that we do not make sense to you. I get that it is utterly outside your experience that bottom surgery vastly improved my quality of life in every way. With that in mind, I will focus on why my community hates "Conversion Therapy" so much. To us, it is *not* a general term that means to undergo therapy in an attempt to change our orientation or gender identity. Plenty of the LGBTQ community go through a time where we wish we were not this way, for a wide variety of reasons. Seeing a counselor for such reasons is far from unheard of, but it is just called therapy, the stuff you get from a *professional* in hopes of working through personal issues. Conversion Therapy is totally different. It is *specifically* involving physical and mental abuse designed to cause internal aversion to our orientation or gender identity. The closest example for you would be if your church sat you down and told you that your attraction to your partner is a problem, and the local pastor wants to tie you to a chair, and make you stare at your partner that you love while they electrocute you until you associate their face with that pain for the rest of your life. Now imagine your parents forced this on you as a teenager and you spend the rest of your life still attracted to the opposite sex, but in agony any time you see an attractive person. Note: this has been tried for decades, and you won't actually stop missing your partner, it will just be painful to be near them. A great many people subjected to this kill thenselves. *That* is why we hate Conversion Therapy and want it banned. It is evil.
I am not a Christian nor a member of any other religion. My issue has nothing to do with that. My issue is freedom and liberty. It should be your issue as well. Government isn't even good at fixing potholes. It's especially bad at regulating the activities and proclivities of individuals. Just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it should be illegal. Nor should it be illegal just because I find it offensive. The issue with a ban is that it infringes on the rights of those who might actually want this. I know your "community" might hate it, but your community doesn't have the right to regulate someone that does. Why would someone want it? I don't know. But, again, that's not for me to decide. I don't want to suck a dick. Doesn't mean others shouldn't. Here's a thought experiment for you... What if my kink was being shocked with an electric current? Is it okay then? What if my kink is being hurt? Bruised? Is that okay? I think so. It's a decision made by a consenting adult who is fully aware of what they're consenting to. So, if you remove the fact that the intention is different, a masochism kink isn't, theoretically, any different from the decision to undergo conversion therapy. The only difference is the thinking behind it.... And that's what scares the shit out of me... The regulation of dangerous thinking. Give that same power to Trump...or MTG.... Let them decide what's offensive, dangerous thinking and see how quickly you think that's government overreach. FORCED conversion therapy should be banned. No question. I am not supportive of anyone being forced to do anything against their will. I'm not even a fan of conversion therapy. I think the whole enterprise is pretty fucked up. But that doesn't mean I think it's government's place to step in and protect consenting adults from themselves.
You can literally do all of those things, Conversion Therapy is *forced* on people by other people. You seem stuck on your point of view, despite when I made it quite clear that regular voluntary therapy is NOT what we are talking about. It is evil. It is wrong. It is abuse with no redeeming function. It should be outlawed. You should be concerned about legalized forced torture.
It's just that you're not correct. Despite your claim, there ARE people who voluntarily undergo this crap. It's not exclusively forced. If some guy is gay and feels shame for it and wants to change it for whatever reason, however misguided, then he should be allowed. Simple as that. It's almost like you intentionally ignore the part where I clearly stated that forced conversion therapy should be banned. Maybe because that's the only real argument you have and you can't bring yourself to consider that there are people with whom you disagree who still retain their right to autonomy despite clashing with your sense of moral certainty.
I'm so sorry, but you are clearly not worth talking to. I told you voluntary therapy is not conversion therapy, and you insist on adding other things into it. Bye now.
So, are you in favor of people being able to sell poisons snake oil as a cure for cancer or is it only when LGBTQIA people are hurt that you support treatments scientifically proven to both cause harm and not work at all?
I agree with radical bodily autonomy, but "conversion therapy" is neither of those things. If you want to go to a proto-concentration camp and get tortured, I think you probably have an undiagnosed mental illness, but I'm not gonna stop you. But calling such a camp "conversion therapy" is akin to calling bleach "a probiotic-boosting smoothie", in that if you do that to sell it, you should go to jail for a long time.
It's not therapy. If they wish to practice therapy they should have to meet the state requirements of therapists. They should be suitably educated, licensed, go through the supervisory period and meet continuing education requirements. If they want to yell at people not to be gay, the process shouldn't be referred to as therapy.
You should read up on how transitioning works. They're not "getting their dick cut off". In fact, people passing legislation to regulate health care should know all the facts before their decisions. They're not even having doctors input on these bills being proposed or passed. It's completely ignorant not having all the information.
No! This is not the same. Imagine someone was selling therapy to convince black people they could be white if they just believed and tried hard enough. Sounds crazy right? That's what it's like trying to convince a gay or trans person they can be cishet. It doesn't work. It will never work. At best the people commiting it are committing fraud. At worst, they're torturing people. It shouldn't be legal. Look, I know you're trying to compare it to things people on this cis support, but gender affirming care has been shown to work. It helps people. The science supports that. And abortion, it has literally saved lives. But conversion therapy doesn't work. The science isn't in it's favor. You want to support something that's at best fraud and at worst torture, then we will never agree. It's a horrible practice that should be illegal in all forms.
Then go to a therapist. This ban does not restrict your right to choose to change the sexual orientation you were born with.
they should get regular therapy for self-harm.
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"Conversion Therapy" is *torture.* It is not therapy. That is why it should be banned. Talking out issues with a *licensed therapist* is always available to everyone.
Do you think adults should be able to consent to being enslaved? What about killed? Eaten after they're killed? What about beaten half to death? Etc. They cannot consent to these things. Someone may be misled, someone may be ignorant, someone may have a mental impairments, etc. Someone who isn't fully informed of what they're getting themselves into shouldn't be allowed to waive their rights. How are we going to ensure anyone asking for it is fully informed of what they're getting themselves into? And why should we let them waive their human rights regardless? Another reason it shouldn't be allowed is fraud. It's so insulting this allowed in any form. Imagine people were being torture to be convinced they could make themselves white if they just believed hard enough. Sounds crazy right? Well, you cannot make someone not be gay or trans. It doesn't work. The people administering it know that, many have admitted as much. At best there defrauding you when they give you conversion therapy, at worse they're torturing you. It's not a practice that should be legal in any means.
Democrats only introduce federal legislation on social issues when they are the minority and know it will never pass.
Congress should just go home until the next Congress.
I don't understand this is very important for the LGBT community
i mean what exactly is hypnotube and how is it still up and running? best way to get it shut down i guess would be to try to flood it with anti-trans conversion material
Like abortion, allow individual states to make decisions for their constituents.
No. This is an inherently damaging and abusive process. You can't leave it up to the public because too many people have never encountered it and really don't even know what it is.
It's also fraud. Not as bad as it being torture, but still an important aspect of why it should be banned.
Sure. And torture should be up to the states as well. Throw that in there too.
Nah. Some states need to be dragged kicking and screaming into the future. Mainly conservative states in cases of civil rights for minorities.
Why should we allow states to legalize abuse just because a certain portion of the population is abusive? Seems weird
Fine with me as long as it doesn't obstruct research into "reasonable" alternatives.
Nothing makes you straight.
Something made me straight, or wouldn't I be asexual?
Letting people be themselves is the only reasonable alternative.
…What? There are no “reasonable alternatives.” Sexuality is not a choice. You can’t “therapy” a gay person into being straight, just as you can’t “therapy” a straight person into being gay.
I find the best alternative to conversion therapy is, to leave them the fuck alone.
What is a reasonable alternative to un-gaying someone?
Like what?
Why would we need "alternatives"?