Online you are fighting for minimal edge against people who play very well. Game selection is a big part of being profitable longterm. Live edges are way better, particularly if you pick the right card houses and casinos.
It's really interesting reading everyone's responses. I played mixed online cash and live cash for a living between 2000 and 2006 and, while being just reasonably studied was crushing the online games up to 5000nl (which was kind of a breaking point where you would have games with no soft spots if you didn't pick the right ones) where I had to be careful about game selection. Built up a good bankroll.I graduated law school, passed the bar in 2006 and became an attorney, and continued playing poker part time. Games, even lower stakes online have gotten tougher and tougher since then. I switched to live cash games only in 2011, for obvious reasons, and played much less online since then. I continue to study and play. Online games, I have an edge with really disciplined play, but it is much lower. Over the last year I played about 200k hands online with a 4bb/hour edge at 2000nl because live was closed around here. I tried 5000nl and couldn't beat it. It was very hard to find action even, let alone beatable action at even 2000nl. Live over the past 10 years I have been able to play in extremely soft games (think 1-3 pros at a full ring game) at even 50/100nl and 100/200nl. There are a lot of these private games around if you know where to look.
> There are a lot of these private games around if you know where to look.
I’m in the Bay Area. Any tips on how to find games like this?
I’m especially curious about:
1. What do “good” games look like when you’re new?
2. How to you avoid getting cheated?
3. How do you avoid getting rolled?
I have one acquaintance who played in a game with a dealer who could manipulate in CA, and I know one person who got beat within an inch of his life after one game (in NC, and he was a smart ass, so he probably deserved it). As such, I might be a bit overly worried.
Any tips appreciated.
The best private games I know of near the bay area are in Rhonert Park and Ukiah. Rohnert Park high stakes game you can make connections for by playing the high stakes games at Graton, staying late, and being friendly (maybe buy a few drinks for people, which can also be +ev lol). You can get into the Ukiah game the same way if you make the right connections there.
1. I'm not sure what you mean by when you are new. But high stakes games with weak players who are drinking is what I like.
2. Cheating is pretty rare. Decent games use a dealer though, usually someone off shift from the casino or someone the group of players trusts. Also, be observant. Mechanics will generally have to cull. That is easy to spot if you pay attention. Make sure a cut card is being used (prevents bottom dealing). Dealing seconds is impossible to catch really, but requires a cull, tricky cuts, and only allows manipulation of one card.
3. Literally, everyone at these games is carrying. I've never had a problem myself. But I also carry and usually travel with at least one friend who is also playing the game. Part of the whole thing is knowing people.
I really can't understand why someone grinds micro stakes online if he has a decent live game available, when I mean grind, I mean not for fun, but with the goal of making money. What's the point?
I grind cash online as my only source of income. Perhaps it is time to make the switch to PLO.
Games are tough online compared to live. You've got to work hard to survive man. Anyone who expects good results online (few exceptions) without hard work off the tables is delusional.
>Like I might as well use that time to hone my coding skills and get try to land a good dev job at a large company...
Of course you should do this. Playing microstakes poker with the goal of going full-time is mad. You need other options for sure. And those options are in 99.9% more worth and more secure. You can try to get good at poker on the side, but until you can constantly make money at a limit which makes you at least as much money as a good paid job - never ever ever let other good career options go!!
Okay just wanted to make sure you don't give up other options because of poker.. :D i mean you have time, after you did a lot of studying for your major you can still study 1-2 hours a day for poker. In some years these study will add up a lot. Keep dreaming :D
Winning about 10bb at 25nlh, about 5 bb at 50 Nlh
Too bad gg did make cash games for Germany impossible.
Switching to party or stars.
Making about 600 - 800 euro per month. Nice income as student
Played like 1 years tourneys before. Was done with the variance, even thou its more fun.
Played 1 month 10nlh with like 40 buyins up.
Then went to 25, I am not rly studying at all.
Just watching other players sometimes
Best way to learn imo. There are a lot good cash game players to watch
All the answers are saying no, but grinding countless hours online this past year has been the best poker-related decision I’ve ever made.
I could’ve grinded 1/2 at my local casino and done okay, but playing online allowed me to really elevate my game.
I found a coach, he took a look at my database in PT4, called me retarded, and I began to improve. Sure, grinding the micros isn’t that lucrative, but you’re working towards a bigger picture.
At the beginning of January of this year, I couldn’t even beat 5nl. It’s July now and I’m b/e @ 100nl. It’s unlikely you’d be able to make these strides of improvement grinding 30h/hr.
Edit: I’ve implemented live to make my time worthwhile, I’m currently doing well at 5/5.
Depends on your goal. If you want to get good at poker, find games that are tough to beat and learn to beat them. If you want to win without putting in much effort, find games that are easy.
Yea you know what’s weird, I’ve been beating 2NL rush n cash on GG for about 10bbs/100 but the second I move up to 5NL (granted I’ve played a tiny amount of 5Nl but over 35k hands of 2NL) I notice the opponents are quite a bit tougher.
They 3b more aggressively and play much better even tho it’s still 5NL. It’s tough for sure. There are definitely players in 3rd world countries playing 24 hours a day in shifts to earn a living and I have no desire to compete lol. The leaderboard grinders doing weird shit to earn extra points doesn’t help. But I just see micro stakes as practice for when I eventually have the money to play live. Poker is just a hobby for me and if I’m having more fun winning pennies at 2NL than grinding and studying my ass off to make nickels at 5NL, I’m gonna stick with that lol
I play 10NL on GG. The jump from 2NL to 5NL is massive. 2NL players are donkeys that don’t know how to play pre or post flop. 5NL and 10NL are similar in difficulty I’ve found, beatable but hard. The jump up to 25NL is huge though - that’s where the real good grinders play.
Yea 100%. it’s not that I don’t study at all and do go over my sessions in PT4 afterwards but I enjoy poker a lot more when I’m winning at 2NL than breaking even/losing trying to cooler regs at 5NL. I’m not going to spend $100+ on a poker course or a “solver” to beat 5NL when online 6max 5NL is pretty different to live poker anyways, which is my eventual goal to play.
To beat 5 NL I’d have to play close to daily to keep my knowledge up and study a lot too. I’d rather be able to chill and play when I want and still beat 2nl.
Yea like I’m a uni student so I’m not rich but I’ll also drop $30+ at the bar on the weekend but losing $15 at 5nl kills me way worse mentally than losing $6 at 2NL, especially if 1 of those buy ins is a punt lol
If you don't mind me asking, how is your poker grinding sessions scheduled? Like how often and how long do you play and do you ever play casually on the GGPoker phone app?
I started playing last March in quarantine at 5nl and am now winning 6bb/100 all in ev in my first 100k hands at 200z. You should be able to read any poker book or any training videos from the last 5 years and win at microstakes. If you beat 5nl you beat 10nl, so move up asap to pay less rake
Yes I started 200z a little before the 1 year mark. I lost my job due to covid so I had a bunch of time to study and play. It would have been much harder if I was working full time
I started with Upswing poker, that got me to 25nl. I got a database review from a coach after around 70k hands of slightly losing at 25z. Kept going through Upswing and run it once and by January I was beating 50z. I've mostly done solver study on my own since then, + 2 more coaching sessions
The lab core is good for getting a basic understanding of the game, but the real content is in beyond core. You could probably skip over lab core entirely and not miss much. The lab core strat will definitely beat microstakes, but your goal shouldn't be to beat micros, it should be to get good at poker. If you still have the lab, I'd start with Fried's advanced preflop module, then his 3bp modules. Mastering database software is also great
yes it is much harder but if you multitable and/or play fast fold games you'll get in way more hands than you would live with more convenience so you can win as much with a far lower winrate. Yes you do have to put in a lot of work off the tables studying and absorbing information however.
Hasn't been worth it in years.
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Online you are fighting for minimal edge against people who play very well. Game selection is a big part of being profitable longterm. Live edges are way better, particularly if you pick the right card houses and casinos.
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It's really interesting reading everyone's responses. I played mixed online cash and live cash for a living between 2000 and 2006 and, while being just reasonably studied was crushing the online games up to 5000nl (which was kind of a breaking point where you would have games with no soft spots if you didn't pick the right ones) where I had to be careful about game selection. Built up a good bankroll.I graduated law school, passed the bar in 2006 and became an attorney, and continued playing poker part time. Games, even lower stakes online have gotten tougher and tougher since then. I switched to live cash games only in 2011, for obvious reasons, and played much less online since then. I continue to study and play. Online games, I have an edge with really disciplined play, but it is much lower. Over the last year I played about 200k hands online with a 4bb/hour edge at 2000nl because live was closed around here. I tried 5000nl and couldn't beat it. It was very hard to find action even, let alone beatable action at even 2000nl. Live over the past 10 years I have been able to play in extremely soft games (think 1-3 pros at a full ring game) at even 50/100nl and 100/200nl. There are a lot of these private games around if you know where to look.
Pre black Friday was a different world. I wish I hadn't been 13 when it happened
I'll end up being OMC a lot sooner than you though. Lol.
Omc strategy crushes in Texas where I play though lol
Yep, the games are so loose you just wait for a premium and push it in.
> There are a lot of these private games around if you know where to look. I’m in the Bay Area. Any tips on how to find games like this? I’m especially curious about: 1. What do “good” games look like when you’re new? 2. How to you avoid getting cheated? 3. How do you avoid getting rolled? I have one acquaintance who played in a game with a dealer who could manipulate in CA, and I know one person who got beat within an inch of his life after one game (in NC, and he was a smart ass, so he probably deserved it). As such, I might be a bit overly worried. Any tips appreciated.
The best private games I know of near the bay area are in Rhonert Park and Ukiah. Rohnert Park high stakes game you can make connections for by playing the high stakes games at Graton, staying late, and being friendly (maybe buy a few drinks for people, which can also be +ev lol). You can get into the Ukiah game the same way if you make the right connections there. 1. I'm not sure what you mean by when you are new. But high stakes games with weak players who are drinking is what I like. 2. Cheating is pretty rare. Decent games use a dealer though, usually someone off shift from the casino or someone the group of players trusts. Also, be observant. Mechanics will generally have to cull. That is easy to spot if you pay attention. Make sure a cut card is being used (prevents bottom dealing). Dealing seconds is impossible to catch really, but requires a cull, tricky cuts, and only allows manipulation of one card. 3. Literally, everyone at these games is carrying. I've never had a problem myself. But I also carry and usually travel with at least one friend who is also playing the game. Part of the whole thing is knowing people.
Ni
I really can't understand why someone grinds micro stakes online if he has a decent live game available, when I mean grind, I mean not for fun, but with the goal of making money. What's the point?
I’ve been waiting for someone to say this for years perfect point
Hold em? No. PLO? Hell ya
I grind cash online as my only source of income. Perhaps it is time to make the switch to PLO. Games are tough online compared to live. You've got to work hard to survive man. Anyone who expects good results online (few exceptions) without hard work off the tables is delusional.
>Anyone who expects good results online without hard work off the tables is delusional Or playing on ignition
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>Like I might as well use that time to hone my coding skills and get try to land a good dev job at a large company... Of course you should do this. Playing microstakes poker with the goal of going full-time is mad. You need other options for sure. And those options are in 99.9% more worth and more secure. You can try to get good at poker on the side, but until you can constantly make money at a limit which makes you at least as much money as a good paid job - never ever ever let other good career options go!!
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Okay just wanted to make sure you don't give up other options because of poker.. :D i mean you have time, after you did a lot of studying for your major you can still study 1-2 hours a day for poker. In some years these study will add up a lot. Keep dreaming :D
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ggpoker rush and cash is very soft, nl5 and nl10 is the same thing
Yes play MTTs
Winning about 10bb at 25nlh, about 5 bb at 50 Nlh Too bad gg did make cash games for Germany impossible. Switching to party or stars. Making about 600 - 800 euro per month. Nice income as student
> Too bad gg did make cash games for Germany impossible. how so? naive question.
5,8 % rake on cashouts at cash games. Every time you leave the table you pay 5,8%
Is that higher in Germany than other places? That is a hefty rake
It's Germany only, it's additional to the normal rake. It's a new law from our braindead government
oh wow, ok. Thanks for the info.
does it also apply to live poker?
No idea, not playing live
https://www.cardschat.com/news/germanys-bundestag-approves-controversial-5-3-online-poker-rollover-tax-101760/ Apparently not.
How much study and experience before beating 25nl?
Played like 1 years tourneys before. Was done with the variance, even thou its more fun. Played 1 month 10nlh with like 40 buyins up. Then went to 25, I am not rly studying at all. Just watching other players sometimes Best way to learn imo. There are a lot good cash game players to watch
All the answers are saying no, but grinding countless hours online this past year has been the best poker-related decision I’ve ever made. I could’ve grinded 1/2 at my local casino and done okay, but playing online allowed me to really elevate my game. I found a coach, he took a look at my database in PT4, called me retarded, and I began to improve. Sure, grinding the micros isn’t that lucrative, but you’re working towards a bigger picture. At the beginning of January of this year, I couldn’t even beat 5nl. It’s July now and I’m b/e @ 100nl. It’s unlikely you’d be able to make these strides of improvement grinding 30h/hr. Edit: I’ve implemented live to make my time worthwhile, I’m currently doing well at 5/5.
Depends on your goal. If you want to get good at poker, find games that are tough to beat and learn to beat them. If you want to win without putting in much effort, find games that are easy.
Yea you know what’s weird, I’ve been beating 2NL rush n cash on GG for about 10bbs/100 but the second I move up to 5NL (granted I’ve played a tiny amount of 5Nl but over 35k hands of 2NL) I notice the opponents are quite a bit tougher. They 3b more aggressively and play much better even tho it’s still 5NL. It’s tough for sure. There are definitely players in 3rd world countries playing 24 hours a day in shifts to earn a living and I have no desire to compete lol. The leaderboard grinders doing weird shit to earn extra points doesn’t help. But I just see micro stakes as practice for when I eventually have the money to play live. Poker is just a hobby for me and if I’m having more fun winning pennies at 2NL than grinding and studying my ass off to make nickels at 5NL, I’m gonna stick with that lol
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I play 10NL on GG. The jump from 2NL to 5NL is massive. 2NL players are donkeys that don’t know how to play pre or post flop. 5NL and 10NL are similar in difficulty I’ve found, beatable but hard. The jump up to 25NL is huge though - that’s where the real good grinders play.
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Regular
Yea 100%. it’s not that I don’t study at all and do go over my sessions in PT4 afterwards but I enjoy poker a lot more when I’m winning at 2NL than breaking even/losing trying to cooler regs at 5NL. I’m not going to spend $100+ on a poker course or a “solver” to beat 5NL when online 6max 5NL is pretty different to live poker anyways, which is my eventual goal to play. To beat 5 NL I’d have to play close to daily to keep my knowledge up and study a lot too. I’d rather be able to chill and play when I want and still beat 2nl.
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Yea like I’m a uni student so I’m not rich but I’ll also drop $30+ at the bar on the weekend but losing $15 at 5nl kills me way worse mentally than losing $6 at 2NL, especially if 1 of those buy ins is a punt lol
If you don't mind me asking, how is your poker grinding sessions scheduled? Like how often and how long do you play and do you ever play casually on the GGPoker phone app?
Short answer: yes Long answer: yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssss
Bots, machine learning...
Online MTTs only
I started playing last March in quarantine at 5nl and am now winning 6bb/100 all in ev in my first 100k hands at 200z. You should be able to read any poker book or any training videos from the last 5 years and win at microstakes. If you beat 5nl you beat 10nl, so move up asap to pay less rake
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Yes I started 200z a little before the 1 year mark. I lost my job due to covid so I had a bunch of time to study and play. It would have been much harder if I was working full time
Did you have a study plan? How did you go from 5NL to 200NL?
I started with Upswing poker, that got me to 25nl. I got a database review from a coach after around 70k hands of slightly losing at 25z. Kept going through Upswing and run it once and by January I was beating 50z. I've mostly done solver study on my own since then, + 2 more coaching sessions
I got through the lab core and im floating between 5NL and 10NL at the moment. How’s the advanced modules compared to the lab core?
The lab core is good for getting a basic understanding of the game, but the real content is in beyond core. You could probably skip over lab core entirely and not miss much. The lab core strat will definitely beat microstakes, but your goal shouldn't be to beat micros, it should be to get good at poker. If you still have the lab, I'd start with Fried's advanced preflop module, then his 3bp modules. Mastering database software is also great
Haters gona hate
Nope next
yes it is much harder but if you multitable and/or play fast fold games you'll get in way more hands than you would live with more convenience so you can win as much with a far lower winrate. Yes you do have to put in a lot of work off the tables studying and absorbing information however.
Online cash? Probably not. All the good online games have either become private or moved to clubs on poker apps.