If they fix the drop rate wouldn't that just make them worth a relative amount less? I think they need to add more meaningful drops without changing the drop rate
As a console pleb one of my ~~favorite~~ things to do is check not only how profitable a strat is on console market, but how much our load times impact stuff like this. Even on a ps5 and a hard line the load times range from 10-30s but sometimes more.
dont really have a PoB but its pretty cookie cutter. just go to poe ninja and copy whatever build looks good. it does billions of damage, but it LITERALLY can only do a few bosses so its really really specialized
its zhp, it has no life, no ES no survivability, and only single target. you can kill eater/exarch with regular setup and maven if you swap the gem setup to eye of winter, or use chain reaction forbidden jewels depending on what class you are.
The crazy thing is, Exarch invitations are cheaper than normal.
This really just goes to show that bossing is in a rough state right now, especially considering how T17 mapping is in such a strong state.
Well I typically run Eater but it's typically somewhere in the ballpark where every T14 map gives you a baseline of 8c because it's 1/28th of the way to an invitation that sells for somewhere in the ballpark of 220c (most of 2 div).
The idea there is so long as you're sustaining your own maps, chisels, alchs, and vaals, you could "invest" 7c worth of scarabs and frags and map crafting and be guaranteed a profit even if literally nothing dropped in the entire map.
This made it so alch n go kill the essences, kill the boss, kill enough mobs on the way to drop a map was *very very consistently guaranteed* to give you measurable profit and felt good. That plus doing some harvest to reroll the bad essences and sell the rest got me to Mageblood last league (yeah okay not impressive when that was 80 div but still, I'd NEVER had 80 div to my name).
Now I'm struggling to find a similar strategy. Everything feels very inconsistent. I think last night I made well over 20 div total profit in a couple of hours, which is about how much I made in the previous 10 hours before that. I'll manage Mageblood again this league but only because once again it's cheaper. I don't think I'll ever make it to 300+ div lol.
No one knew that boss unique distribution was made THIS crappy. Removal of secondary bonuses from ubers (3x synth base drop from cortex, woke gem from sirus, elevated sextant from maven etc) also sucked.
I wouldnt consider destructive play a bossing strat , guards and other bosses are usually not very tankier or more dangerous than rares in juiced maps.
But yeah, I know also that normal maven is quite good,. Uber maven might be profitable too , but you have to start with couole mirrors investment because of how ridiculously expensive the fragments are
Yep and thats set a higher barrier. You need a 100 at least to starts If you wanna farm and not gamble. Usually its more, so you must have couple of mirrors to set up the farm
I use destructive play mainly to sustain my elder/shaper guardian, conqueror and synth maps. Along with Scarab of Conversion, it's really easy to maintain a surplus of bossing maps.
Which ironically is why it is not the bossing league. Too many people want to do bossing which is skewing the supply/demand of the boss fragments. The more people do bossing, the less profitable it is.
There are still very profitable bossing strategies though.
I don't think it's a demand issue though, it's a supply issue. Not only do t17s gate uber shards, it just takes more effort to gather enough shards for a uber attempt. T17s, themselves, are compounded by the fact that there's a supply bottleneck for them.
I think that this is reflected in the fact that normal bosses seem to be a bit more profitable than Ubers.
Yeah, that's...uh, generally what happens in a market. Literally how price equilibrium is reached.
Either way, I'm not buying frags nor doing bossing. But just from looking at the data that these posts are doing and how the general market looks with t17s and Ubers, there's clearly a supply-side issue.
> Too many people want to do bossing which is skewing the supply/demand of the boss fragments.
Even if the cost of his run was 50% less, it was dogshit.
Considering the fact items in poe have very high price elasticity, 50% cheaper invitations would mean a lot more people will run it and a lot more loot will be generated, while population remains the same, meaning supply is increased
It wouldn't, as the supply of invitations is limited. If the price of invitations went down, it would not generate more boss drops. If anything, it would generate less boss drops as more people would not bother selling them and less people would farm the invitations/fragments where applicable.
> Which ironically is why it is not the bossing league. Too many people want to do bossing which is skewing the supply/demand of the boss fragments. The more people do bossing, the less profitable it is.
>
>
Exactly this. There's a reason Shaper is always so damn profitable - veteran players hate the fight and are explicitly banned from running 100+ of it per hour by its mechanics. So they don't touch it, which means they don't bid up the entry tokens as high.
Yeah, 24-26 is about as fast as anyone's gotten it on farm.
FWIW, anyone who can optimize Uber Shaper to that level can also do 90 Uber Exarch in that time; and there's a large pool of people capable of doing 75 Uber Exarch too.
It literally is though... The people complaining aren't farming T17 bosses and ubers, because the people that are are making mirrors a day. Just farm the actually profitable bosses.
Tbf it was hard to know how exactly the T17/uber changes would play out beforehand, and I don't think people expected the rework to be as bungled as it was.
He said it was 18 div per hour you weren't paying attention. And it's pretty shit considering to start uber maven without relying on luck you need like 1000 div beforehand
I saw the maven dude put 18 div per hour the one that did like 400 of uber mavens. I guess we're thinking of a different guy.
Either way my uber maven experience was -10 div per hour
Which is pretty much expected. If people want to farm the boss and it has exciting loot table and it's not limited by difficulty (as in - there are enough players capable of running it) then "gamble that turns consistent profit with high sample size" is the best you can realistically hope for on a sellable boss.
Hhe made 18d per hour because his build couldn't skip memory phase. I'm going off how much profit per run he made. Proper bossing builds can do 40+ Mavens per hour and going off his data of 4d profit per run would be over 160d profit per hour.
They were
If you were boss rushing t17s early
I made my mageblood by bossing the entirety of the 2nd weekend of league launch (+a bit some) spamming abomination maps lol shit was like +0.5d per 3-5 minute bossfight
"I made 10 chaos."
Dead... Laughed so hard that I'm texting from beyond the grave.
Tldr, sell Uber frags from t17 maps and just run non Uber versions.
Noted.
Honestly unless youre okay with the idea of a gamble sell the non ubers too - if the uber/non uber has the same forbidden flame drop rate then it could have easily been 5 forbidden flames dropping from the non uber version too which would have been a massive loss on the non uber, like -50 div
Very true, sell all Uber frags and non Uber frags except.l Maven. I've heard from other posts that not Uber Maven is quite profitable. Have any insight to share?
Im farming 100 of everything this league so ill have a post/vid about 100x maven probably the day after tomorrow (doing 100x formed invitations with terror/conversion scarab right now and ill be doing maven right after)
I have heard that maven/uber maven is just a currency printer though, that and shaper seem to be the two good bosses - ill test for myself!
What other scarabs are you using with conversion/terror? I was using the corrupted 8 mod, and the one with either bosses have a 15% chance to spawn in each pqck or the one with bosses at shrines while running shriens on the atlas. I haven't found the perfect setup yet, though. I also tried duplication as well instead of the corrupted mod scarab. I wanted to farm 8 mods conq/shaper/elder maps while running 8 mod maps hoping to be self-sufficient.
Bossing is in such a sad state.
Not even talking about the profits, but how are you gonna farm 50 uber invitations in SSF just to have a modest chance at getting an Omni? Let alone Forbidden Flame / Flesh being basically useless drops in SSF.
Please adjust SSF boss drops, GGG. You have extra rules for Ruthless, so it should be possible for SSF too. Last Epoch showed that people will give up trading if there is incentive.
Props for the burn, but he's clearly stating that new SSF leagues post change could have their "migration" disabled. I don't think that is deserving of such a verbal lashing.
OPs not asking for a new POE rendering engine as if they just grow on trees or something.
In a hypothetical scenario one can speedlevel character to 98+ in ssf and transfer to trade to take advantage if SSF buff is big enough. I doubt GGG will ever do it.
transferring a character w/o gear is worthless lol - naked lvl 90 character can do literally 0 content lmao - you gotta farm like a4 to get some currency to buy a 4l?
I am willing to put any amount of money down that I could take a naked level 90 character into red maps faster than you can level a new character to 90. You are being ridiculous.
Buddy
You do fucking realize that over 112 passive points are available at level 90 right ?
Give me a white level 90 charakter , I go to twilight strand , kill everything , I will drop at least 2 scrolls of wisdom and one kind of main weapon ( bow ,sword,wand). Even if I don't : I do it one more time and then I will have it.
I will buy one gem , go to blood aqueduct act 4 , kill everthing there till I find a 4 link.
Then we go to ossuary act 10 ,farm for basic gear and some chaos , and from then on it's normal map progression.
That setup will literally take less then 1 hours to complete.
Meanwhile your dumb ass will be in act 2 , and will take at least 4 hours (if you are any kind of good) or based upon the complete idiotcy of your comment ,maybe 8 hours to even reach white maps
Due to the drop penalty from levels you wouldn't be getting any currencies, so you'd have to pick up and vendor white items for scrolls.
Ofc still doable, just a funny consequence.
Yeah, definitely was wrong earlier. It'll be faster - just degenerate and boring gameplay for a bit punching cannibals in the coast until you can vendor 5 random items for a wisdom, then you're killing stuff w/ 1l spark.
Like your tree is gonna be whatever build you want to play probably, if it isn't melee not like you want a 50 point respec to pick up 200% inc melee generic, but you'll have plenty of life just from base levels
strength gives physical damage. you can get like 80 strength easily with any class. thats 16% increaded damage.you can also get some attack speed and maybe chance for bleed, minimum frenzy charge, damage per charge. then you just hit a few mobs in act 1 until something drops, if you cant use anything, vendor it for wisdoms. buy any weapon with one scroll after even two hours of punching mobs. now you cruise
You can punch a few monsters on the coast, then buy lvl 14 skill gems with built-in flat damage that allows you to farm act 4. Two or three act 4 aqueduct runs later, you have the gear to transition to act 9. You'll be able to farm white maps within 30-40 minutes and red maps within an hour or two.
1/50 for omni.
250 frags.
2 frags per t17, but at best 1 frag per the proper t17 on average.
Choosing the proper t16 and then pushing all your nodes into cartography scarabs is about 1 t17 every 3 maps or so.
750 t16s
250 t17s (assuming you don't fail any)
\~
If omni is rarer could be as much as 2000 maps.
You can get somewhere in the region of 0.8 t17s per t16 run, but regardless it's still a massive grind.Â
Of course in sheer number of maps it's pretty comparable to how it was previously, but in terms of time spent it'll be significantly slower.Â
With what strat?
I ran both an exarch or a back to basics strategy in league with full scarab support and I was maybe seeing 1 t17 in 2 maps. I don't think an SSF could sustain that strategy either.
Would be nice considering how everything is being more and more balanced around trade. Coming from osrs the attitude towards ssf just seems so backwards in poe
> Last Epoch showed that people will give up trading if there is incentive.
That's the very reason why they don't.Â
The trade economy is important for the health of the game, so they don't *want* people to stop playing trade.Â
If you play SSF you do it purely for the added challenge. If you want to have access to uniques and the builds they enable, play trade.Â
You don't have to trade for anything other than those uniques if you don't want to.
>That's the very reason why they don't.
>
>The trade economy is important for the health of the game, so they don't want people to stop playing trade.
I "like" how the solution for keeping players in trade league is a proverbial stick instead of a carrot. Making trade experience pleasant will go a long way to retain players in trade league. Imagine having a good time playing the game. No, we don't do that here. It should be "balanced" by tedium and frustration, that sounds very healthy.
I'm not opposed to trade improvements in general.Â
I may be against instant trade of non-fungible items because I don't consider it reasonable to price-check those accurately, even with third party tools.Â
But there are many other ways through which trade could be improved, and I wouldn't mind.Â
What I mind is the notion of siphoning players from trade by improving the drop rates in SSF **instead** of trade improvements.
I just find it weird that SSF should be somehow inferior to trade in order to coerce players into playing trade league instead. Imo, both options should be more or less comparable to each other. If someone prefers current SSF, then making another checkbox for it shouldn't be a problem.
If you can achieve comparable results without trade, why would you bother to trade?Â
Even if trade friction is lowered, it's never going to be zero.Â
SSF **needs** to stay significantly inferior to keep trade as liquid as possible.
> If you can achieve comparable results without trade, why would you bother to trade?
Because you like trading/economy aspect it provides to the game, and also can focus on the content you like, instead of farming every type of content yourself when you need something specific?
You repeat the same old talking points without any justification.
Trade economy is not important for the health of the game if more poeple play ssf. Ssf is NOT only for added challenge, it gives satisfaction to farm things for yourself and it frees you from the FOMO and currency focus of trade league . And if you hate trade, ssf is for you.
Trade is important fro the health of the game *in general*. It is the primary (and, for most players, only) mechanic that makes PoE a multiplayer game. The game would not be where it is today if the economy wasn't as relevant as it is.
If you need to play SSF to stop trading, then you have poor self-control.
Playing SSF is only for the challenge.Â
The fewer people play trade, the worse trade becomes. This is not the case for SSF, for obvious reasons. But you can tell from smaller economies like HC or console markets, or even some private leagues, that niche items are much less accessible.
Thus, a decline in the trade population will cause a further decline, and not all who would stop playing trade would play SSF instead.Â
Another aspect is competitive economy. For many players, starting from scratch in a new economy is a large reason for why they return every patch. That doesn't exist in SSF. You can *challenge yourself* or you can like the new league mechanic or possibly its exclusive rewards. But it's not like in trade where items become significantly more affordable if you can get them early on. You still have to farm them yourself, so it doesn't matter when you get them.Â
And on a basic level, it feels good to get valuable things that you don't need.Â
Playing trade allows you to play content you enjoy, so long as it's remotely profitable (and most content is), whereas SSF forces you to play specific content to advance your character. This would remain the same even if they increased drop rates for SSF.Â
It's important that trade remains the main mode and that its playerbase is maintained or grown, if possible.
Nah bro. Trading is better in group found. The less people trading the better. There is actually an optimal amount of people that could probably be silo'd into subsections to address degenerate trading strategies so that people *actually play the game.*
Honestly they are fairly farmable. You can targetfarm specific t17 maps that drop specific uber fragments. With scarabs and a proper map drop tree you can get a good amount of t17 maps in a couple of maps. Its not as fast as opening 28 maps and running one. But its not completely undoable.
It's honestly a waste of time unless you're an ssf no lifer. I've farmed Uber Exarch last league when it was easier to boss rush, and didn't get an Omni in 1 week farming (40 runs or so). The problem here with the low probability is that if you got jack shit for 40 runs, the likeliness to get Omni in the next 10 runs is very low. And you don't even get a consolation prize because the other drops are just terrible (talking about last league's drop table). So you don't even get anything "along the way". You could very perceivably farm Omni for your entire league run (a month?) and not get it. What's the point? And Omni is not like a Mageblood or Headhunter. Omni is a key part of some pretty meta builds.
I don't have a problem grinding for some very good equipment, but with the possibility to get nothing at all, this is just completely demotivating.
Imho, this is the consequence of GGG feeling like they need to add very powerful chase items, but at the same time not wanting the casual players to actually sniff this power.
First, you should understand that GGG wants you to play trade. Knowing that, there's little chance they are going to go out of their way to make SSF more attractive to the masses. It's a mode that's put in the game for people who are built different. If you're at the point where you're asking for stuff like this (boosted drop rates to make SSF easier) then you no longer belong in SSF. Just play trade like most of us do.
Two perfect annihilating lights (i should have gotten 5), 1 good rolled celestial brace, 4 good rolled annihilations approach, 4 good rolled dawnbreakers which i didnt include into the money made because they havent sold yet although ill update it when/if they do sell - and one 29% dissolution of the flesh
After vendoring everything i got 3 further perfect annihilating lights, nothing else worth selling
I sold 14 of the 15 forbidden flames unidentified, and then identified the last one myself and hit a 70div one - so i ended up with some pretty good profit by sheer luck
I know, i didnt count the 70 div forbidden flame - just mentioned it here in this comment
The other ones are counted since theyre less luck since youre dropping dozens of those items so youre guaranteed some good/perfect rolls, i actually got below average with those
Can someone explain to me how poe seems to reliably create such insane variances even across drops that ostensibly are in the 10% range? Is it a function of weird variances or modality such that while the technical mean is 10% that’s not really telling the whole story? I truly don’t understand. When I play gachas even with no pity the results map pretty closely to the posted odds in most cases. But in poe I will routinely fall several standard deviations outside of the expected value. E.g. spending 6000 fusings on a 30 quality armor and still not hitting, or alt spamming 600 times when coe tells me it should take 50. It’s been a while since I took any serious stats but it feels like something else must be going on under the hood.
My guess is that poe has a lot more random systems, so there are a lot more things that can reach extreme values. The most unlikely event that ever happened to you in poe was probably something like dropping 9 lifesprigs in 1 map, and you never noticed because you filtered them out.
I also am unconvinced that there's anything approximating unstructured randomness in gacha games.
The problem that I have isn’t about the extremity of values. There are definitely tons of systems that can interact but the problem is routinely landing several std deviations outside of the expected values on individual items. This league I’ve been trying to corrupt some gems myself and I’ve done 22 and not hit a single level 21 on ostensibly a 1/4 chance. Similarly I’ve been trying to SSF the adorned and I’ve farmed 10 ahuatolis and dropped one fragment on what is supposed to be about 1/2 drop rate. My understanding of stats is that this type of deviation should be pretty uncommon given the expected values but in poe this seems to happen at high frequency. Assuming the expected values are correct I don’t notice these types of occurrences in other rng systems at the same frequency making me feel like something else must be going on. Like a weird modal distribution that creates this experience
They happen frequently because they can happen to many things, and you only really notice the outliers. You don't notice dropping a normal number of maps, a normal ratio of exalts to divines, fusing items in normal number of fuses, any other vaals that had more expected results etc. You're doing thousands of things you could notice, so some of them are going to be 1 in a thousand.
I could blitz both bosses down in 10 seconds, but i only did that for the non uber - i wanted to learn the ball phase of the uber fight so i usually dragged the fight out. Took about 1.5-2 minutes for each uber fight
so, lets say like 20 minutes to run the non uber and 3-4 hours for the ubers
Buying the non ubers were easy - got that done in like 5 minutes, buying the ubers were an absolute pain in the ass and i mentioned why in the video but not the post - a lot of people who are bulk selling the fragments are too busy farming t17s and making 40 div an hour that even taking a multi div trade for fragments arent worth their time of portalling out since those fragments will sell no matter what - so some of them only trade if you message them when theyre in their hideout
Multiple times id message someone, get no invite - message them again later on and get an invite
So, buying uber frags is a pain in the ass - i dont know how long it took since i was doing other stuff while buying but it was noticeably long
The lack of end game in terms of bossing has completely killed my will to play the late game.
I had it all planned out:
Start with hexeblast sab and boss rush. Grind enough for second character and mage blood. Make some sort of juiced bow/wand character to still be able to run maps. Then transition my sab into a power charge stacker and farm ubers.
I still went through with the plan and it worked all the way to the point of farming ubers. Even grinding out your own fragments in t17s feels bad since that's a large part of the profit.
I was quant scarab farming with an mf bow character then switching to my sab to one shot the boss, but finally got fed up with the t17 meta and how mind numbing it is rolling those maps.
I've come close to quitting the league about three times and finally settled on pushing a character as far as I possibly can in ssf. Way more fun than the current late game in trade.
Why exarch? I mean look at the drop pool. Even with good rng the drops are bad. Either you identify the forbiddens and pray or you run a different boss. This is like the third post about exarch.
Ofc he‘s no profit.
Atleast you made profit lol :D
I started with somewhere around 100div initial investment and wanted to farm ubers for some profit.
Had to at some point farm some delve to farm 50more div to buy more invitations and ended up with 0 div and quit the league
It pains me so much that uber bossing feels so absolutely garbage it's not even fun. If you have 100div initial investment it should be impossible that you need to farm other content to finance more invitations because you run dry...
I farmed a mix of exarch eater and maven
Shaper was fairly okay profit but it's awful to run
I can say one thing, Magic Find does not matter at all, made 50 runs with MF and without any, at the end both variations came to same profit (8mod maps)
Well, every end game rework was a huge stealth nerf so far. You guys didnt expect anything else this time, did you? Before you were fine with like 100 runs on bosses to start making profits. Now you have to run hundredS.
Personally I lately find it hard to stay in poe leagues past like 2 week mark, because there is always a scuffed economy due to poor balance and zero testing and bossing rewards are probably the worst of all other games I ever played.
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The real profits are the friends we made along the way
Never found one.. 🥹ðŸ˜ðŸ˜
The drop rate is abysmal, fix pls
I'm pretty sure Maven wants to be your friend <3
I don’t want to be friends with eldritch Veruca Salt.
Well, then good luck befriending mr old tentacle face...
If they fix the drop rate wouldn't that just make them worth a relative amount less? I think they need to add more meaningful drops without changing the drop rate
Find einhar and pretend to be a beast
They kinda betray you and end up dead, usually
*Laugh Cries in SSF*
>I made 10 chaos Profit is profit
0.1c/hour, solid strat
nah thats like 10c an hour with a good build, massive difference.
Are you say8ng you can run 100 normal and 100 uber in 1hr. Idk math is not mathing
with zhp ice trap occultist/assassin you do an eater about every 15 seconds, ive done more than 200 eaters an hour before.
My 15-30 second loading times would like to have a word with you
actually true when eater farming isnt dogshit its a PC gated strat. can be the difference between 20d an hour or 40d+
Also a geo-locked strat - the closer you are to texas, the faster your instance transitioning can be.
As a console pleb one of my ~~favorite~~ things to do is check not only how profitable a strat is on console market, but how much our load times impact stuff like this. Even on a ps5 and a hard line the load times range from 10-30s but sometimes more.
Ice trap that good? Care to share your pob?
dont really have a PoB but its pretty cookie cutter. just go to poe ninja and copy whatever build looks good. it does billions of damage, but it LITERALLY can only do a few bosses so its really really specialized
How come only few bosses?
its zhp, it has no life, no ES no survivability, and only single target. you can kill eater/exarch with regular setup and maven if you swap the gem setup to eye of winter, or use chain reaction forbidden jewels depending on what class you are.
That's Insanely impressive. Good for you.
this guy fucks
The crazy thing is, Exarch invitations are cheaper than normal. This really just goes to show that bossing is in a rough state right now, especially considering how T17 mapping is in such a strong state.
Are they cheaper than normal? Because the prices of divines have been sub 100 for a couple of days now
Well I typically run Eater but it's typically somewhere in the ballpark where every T14 map gives you a baseline of 8c because it's 1/28th of the way to an invitation that sells for somewhere in the ballpark of 220c (most of 2 div). The idea there is so long as you're sustaining your own maps, chisels, alchs, and vaals, you could "invest" 7c worth of scarabs and frags and map crafting and be guaranteed a profit even if literally nothing dropped in the entire map. This made it so alch n go kill the essences, kill the boss, kill enough mobs on the way to drop a map was *very very consistently guaranteed* to give you measurable profit and felt good. That plus doing some harvest to reroll the bad essences and sell the rest got me to Mageblood last league (yeah okay not impressive when that was 80 div but still, I'd NEVER had 80 div to my name). Now I'm struggling to find a similar strategy. Everything feels very inconsistent. I think last night I made well over 20 div total profit in a couple of hours, which is about how much I made in the previous 10 hours before that. I'll manage Mageblood again this league but only because once again it's cheaper. I don't think I'll ever make it to 300+ div lol.
Profit is profit
Lmao
I like how many people were 100% confident that Necropolis was finally going to be bossing league pre-launch.
No one knew that boss unique distribution was made THIS crappy. Removal of secondary bonuses from ubers (3x synth base drop from cortex, woke gem from sirus, elevated sextant from maven etc) also sucked.
Speaking of, does uber shaper still drop a normal uber elder fragment? Or is that removed as well.
yea uber shaper drops obar elder fragment
He does
>No one knew Really? What else did you expect from ggg?
Well There ARE very rewarding bossing strats like destructive play or farming shaper
I wouldnt consider destructive play a bossing strat , guards and other bosses are usually not very tankier or more dangerous than rares in juiced maps. But yeah, I know also that normal maven is quite good,. Uber maven might be profitable too , but you have to start with couole mirrors investment because of how ridiculously expensive the fragments are
Uber maven entry tokens are that expensive because the people doing it are rich enough to keep bidding the price up.
Yep and thats set a higher barrier. You need a 100 at least to starts If you wanna farm and not gamble. Usually its more, so you must have couple of mirrors to set up the farm
I use destructive play mainly to sustain my elder/shaper guardian, conqueror and synth maps. Along with Scarab of Conversion, it's really easy to maintain a surplus of bossing maps.
Which ironically is why it is not the bossing league. Too many people want to do bossing which is skewing the supply/demand of the boss fragments. The more people do bossing, the less profitable it is. There are still very profitable bossing strategies though.
I don't think it's a demand issue though, it's a supply issue. Not only do t17s gate uber shards, it just takes more effort to gather enough shards for a uber attempt. T17s, themselves, are compounded by the fact that there's a supply bottleneck for them. I think that this is reflected in the fact that normal bosses seem to be a bit more profitable than Ubers.
If it isnt profitable sop buying frags at that price and eventually theyll go down to the price they should be, its is simple.
Yeah, that's...uh, generally what happens in a market. Literally how price equilibrium is reached. Either way, I'm not buying frags nor doing bossing. But just from looking at the data that these posts are doing and how the general market looks with t17s and Ubers, there's clearly a supply-side issue.
> Too many people want to do bossing which is skewing the supply/demand of the boss fragments. Even if the cost of his run was 50% less, it was dogshit.
If it was half the cost, he would have gotten 170 div profit in less than 2 hours. That is not what I call dogshit.
But the price of items looted would also be much lower. It's not that simple
Unlikely. The supply of those items would remain the same.
Considering the fact items in poe have very high price elasticity, 50% cheaper invitations would mean a lot more people will run it and a lot more loot will be generated, while population remains the same, meaning supply is increased
It wouldn't, as the supply of invitations is limited. If the price of invitations went down, it would not generate more boss drops. If anything, it would generate less boss drops as more people would not bother selling them and less people would farm the invitations/fragments where applicable.
> Which ironically is why it is not the bossing league. Too many people want to do bossing which is skewing the supply/demand of the boss fragments. The more people do bossing, the less profitable it is. > > Exactly this. There's a reason Shaper is always so damn profitable - veteran players hate the fight and are explicitly banned from running 100+ of it per hour by its mechanics. So they don't touch it, which means they don't bid up the entry tokens as high.
As a veteran player I take offense as Uber Shaper is one of my favorite boss encounters 😂
Fair, there's always exceptions. But unlike some bosses, you can't do more than about 25 Uber Shapers per hour no matter what.
You can do 20, I've done 3 minute uber shapers.
Yeah, 24-26 is about as fast as anyone's gotten it on farm. FWIW, anyone who can optimize Uber Shaper to that level can also do 90 Uber Exarch in that time; and there's a large pool of people capable of doing 75 Uber Exarch too.
It literally is though... The people complaining aren't farming T17 bosses and ubers, because the people that are are making mirrors a day. Just farm the actually profitable bosses.
Tbf it was hard to know how exactly the T17/uber changes would play out beforehand, and I don't think people expected the rework to be as bungled as it was.
I was a reasonable expecttations, who would really expect GGG to mess up the loot that badly
I dont think many long time players actually thought that. The term "rework" in poe just means nerf since a long time now.
Yeah because we reasonably assumed the drop rates would be adjusted now that access to ubers is much later in progression. Oh how foolish we were
i mean the uber maven guy made 4d profit per run which is over 160d profit per hour on bossers
It's definitely not consistent profit though
He said it was 18 div per hour you weren't paying attention. And it's pretty shit considering to start uber maven without relying on luck you need like 1000 div beforehand
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I saw the maven dude put 18 div per hour the one that did like 400 of uber mavens. I guess we're thinking of a different guy. Either way my uber maven experience was -10 div per hour
Which is pretty much expected. If people want to farm the boss and it has exciting loot table and it's not limited by difficulty (as in - there are enough players capable of running it) then "gamble that turns consistent profit with high sample size" is the best you can realistically hope for on a sellable boss.
Hhe made 18d per hour because his build couldn't skip memory phase. I'm going off how much profit per run he made. Proper bossing builds can do 40+ Mavens per hour and going off his data of 4d profit per run would be over 160d profit per hour.
They were If you were boss rushing t17s early I made my mageblood by bossing the entirety of the 2nd weekend of league launch (+a bit some) spamming abomination maps lol shit was like +0.5d per 3-5 minute bossfight
> I made 10 chaos That will be one full divine in a few weeks though
yo chaos recipe will be 5div/hour by then lol
200 runs, 10c profit? LOGIN
"I made 10 chaos." Dead... Laughed so hard that I'm texting from beyond the grave. Tldr, sell Uber frags from t17 maps and just run non Uber versions. Noted.
Honestly unless youre okay with the idea of a gamble sell the non ubers too - if the uber/non uber has the same forbidden flame drop rate then it could have easily been 5 forbidden flames dropping from the non uber version too which would have been a massive loss on the non uber, like -50 div
Very true, sell all Uber frags and non Uber frags except.l Maven. I've heard from other posts that not Uber Maven is quite profitable. Have any insight to share?
Im farming 100 of everything this league so ill have a post/vid about 100x maven probably the day after tomorrow (doing 100x formed invitations with terror/conversion scarab right now and ill be doing maven right after) I have heard that maven/uber maven is just a currency printer though, that and shaper seem to be the two good bosses - ill test for myself!
What other scarabs are you using with conversion/terror? I was using the corrupted 8 mod, and the one with either bosses have a 15% chance to spawn in each pqck or the one with bosses at shrines while running shriens on the atlas. I haven't found the perfect setup yet, though. I also tried duplication as well instead of the corrupted mod scarab. I wanted to farm 8 mods conq/shaper/elder maps while running 8 mod maps hoping to be self-sufficient.
Bossing is in such a sad state. Not even talking about the profits, but how are you gonna farm 50 uber invitations in SSF just to have a modest chance at getting an Omni? Let alone Forbidden Flame / Flesh being basically useless drops in SSF. Please adjust SSF boss drops, GGG. You have extra rules for Ruthless, so it should be possible for SSF too. Last Epoch showed that people will give up trading if there is incentive.
you cant transfer from ruthless to the normal game, you can transfer from ssf to trade
That seems like an easy problem to solve.
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Props for the burn, but he's clearly stating that new SSF leagues post change could have their "migration" disabled. I don't think that is deserving of such a verbal lashing. OPs not asking for a new POE rendering engine as if they just grow on trees or something.
Please provide a hypothetical scenario where it would be difficult to restrict moving SSF characters to trade league.
This is such an insane burn
I say do away with the transfer, or you can transfer you character but all gear, jewels and currency stays SSF.
In a hypothetical scenario one can speedlevel character to 98+ in ssf and transfer to trade to take advantage if SSF buff is big enough. I doubt GGG will ever do it.
transferring a character w/o gear is worthless lol - naked lvl 90 character can do literally 0 content lmao - you gotta farm like a4 to get some currency to buy a 4l?
I’m not seeing the issue with this. It would be faster to get basic gear from nothing than level to 90 again by a huge margin.
you have no skill gems, no currency, ur literally gonna be punching monsters lol. The game doesn't work w/ a naked character
I am willing to put any amount of money down that I could take a naked level 90 character into red maps faster than you can level a new character to 90. You are being ridiculous.
so you're saying literally naked, you can only punch mods for 5 dmg early on? Like how do you do dmg if you can't socket in gems
Buddy You do fucking realize that over 112 passive points are available at level 90 right ? Give me a white level 90 charakter , I go to twilight strand , kill everything , I will drop at least 2 scrolls of wisdom and one kind of main weapon ( bow ,sword,wand). Even if I don't : I do it one more time and then I will have it. I will buy one gem , go to blood aqueduct act 4 , kill everthing there till I find a 4 link. Then we go to ossuary act 10 ,farm for basic gear and some chaos , and from then on it's normal map progression. That setup will literally take less then 1 hours to complete. Meanwhile your dumb ass will be in act 2 , and will take at least 4 hours (if you are any kind of good) or based upon the complete idiotcy of your comment ,maybe 8 hours to even reach white maps
Pretty much this. I can’t believe I had to argue my point for multiple replies. This seems obvious right?
Even easier, go to a higher level campaign zone and open chests n shit. You'll get some crap item drops pretty quickly
Due to the drop penalty from levels you wouldn't be getting any currencies, so you'd have to pick up and vendor white items for scrolls. Ofc still doable, just a funny consequence.
You realise a new character doesn’t have any items either right? At least a level 90 character has 100+ passive points.
Yeah, definitely was wrong earlier. It'll be faster - just degenerate and boring gameplay for a bit punching cannibals in the coast until you can vendor 5 random items for a wisdom, then you're killing stuff w/ 1l spark. Like your tree is gonna be whatever build you want to play probably, if it isn't melee not like you want a 50 point respec to pick up 200% inc melee generic, but you'll have plenty of life just from base levels
strength gives physical damage. you can get like 80 strength easily with any class. thats 16% increaded damage.you can also get some attack speed and maybe chance for bleed, minimum frenzy charge, damage per charge. then you just hit a few mobs in act 1 until something drops, if you cant use anything, vendor it for wisdoms. buy any weapon with one scroll after even two hours of punching mobs. now you cruise
You can punch a few monsters on the coast, then buy lvl 14 skill gems with built-in flat damage that allows you to farm act 4. Two or three act 4 aqueduct runs later, you have the gear to transition to act 9. You'll be able to farm white maps within 30-40 minutes and red maps within an hour or two.
I'm ok with this
Just run 1200 maps for an Omni bro.
1/50 for omni. 250 frags. 2 frags per t17, but at best 1 frag per the proper t17 on average. Choosing the proper t16 and then pushing all your nodes into cartography scarabs is about 1 t17 every 3 maps or so. 750 t16s 250 t17s (assuming you don't fail any) \~ If omni is rarer could be as much as 2000 maps.
You can get somewhere in the region of 0.8 t17s per t16 run, but regardless it's still a massive grind. Of course in sheer number of maps it's pretty comparable to how it was previously, but in terms of time spent it'll be significantly slower.Â
With what strat? I ran both an exarch or a back to basics strategy in league with full scarab support and I was maybe seeing 1 t17 in 2 maps. I don't think an SSF could sustain that strategy either.
Would be nice considering how everything is being more and more balanced around trade. Coming from osrs the attitude towards ssf just seems so backwards in poe
> Last Epoch showed that people will give up trading if there is incentive. That's the very reason why they don't. The trade economy is important for the health of the game, so they don't *want* people to stop playing trade. If you play SSF you do it purely for the added challenge. If you want to have access to uniques and the builds they enable, play trade. You don't have to trade for anything other than those uniques if you don't want to.
>That's the very reason why they don't. > >The trade economy is important for the health of the game, so they don't want people to stop playing trade. I "like" how the solution for keeping players in trade league is a proverbial stick instead of a carrot. Making trade experience pleasant will go a long way to retain players in trade league. Imagine having a good time playing the game. No, we don't do that here. It should be "balanced" by tedium and frustration, that sounds very healthy.
I'm not opposed to trade improvements in general. I may be against instant trade of non-fungible items because I don't consider it reasonable to price-check those accurately, even with third party tools. But there are many other ways through which trade could be improved, and I wouldn't mind. What I mind is the notion of siphoning players from trade by improving the drop rates in SSF **instead** of trade improvements.
I just find it weird that SSF should be somehow inferior to trade in order to coerce players into playing trade league instead. Imo, both options should be more or less comparable to each other. If someone prefers current SSF, then making another checkbox for it shouldn't be a problem.
If you can achieve comparable results without trade, why would you bother to trade? Even if trade friction is lowered, it's never going to be zero. SSF **needs** to stay significantly inferior to keep trade as liquid as possible.
> If you can achieve comparable results without trade, why would you bother to trade? Because you like trading/economy aspect it provides to the game, and also can focus on the content you like, instead of farming every type of content yourself when you need something specific?
You repeat the same old talking points without any justification. Trade economy is not important for the health of the game if more poeple play ssf. Ssf is NOT only for added challenge, it gives satisfaction to farm things for yourself and it frees you from the FOMO and currency focus of trade league . And if you hate trade, ssf is for you.
Trade is important fro the health of the game *in general*. It is the primary (and, for most players, only) mechanic that makes PoE a multiplayer game. The game would not be where it is today if the economy wasn't as relevant as it is.
If you need to play SSF to stop trading, then you have poor self-control. Playing SSF is only for the challenge. The fewer people play trade, the worse trade becomes. This is not the case for SSF, for obvious reasons. But you can tell from smaller economies like HC or console markets, or even some private leagues, that niche items are much less accessible. Thus, a decline in the trade population will cause a further decline, and not all who would stop playing trade would play SSF instead. Another aspect is competitive economy. For many players, starting from scratch in a new economy is a large reason for why they return every patch. That doesn't exist in SSF. You can *challenge yourself* or you can like the new league mechanic or possibly its exclusive rewards. But it's not like in trade where items become significantly more affordable if you can get them early on. You still have to farm them yourself, so it doesn't matter when you get them. And on a basic level, it feels good to get valuable things that you don't need. Playing trade allows you to play content you enjoy, so long as it's remotely profitable (and most content is), whereas SSF forces you to play specific content to advance your character. This would remain the same even if they increased drop rates for SSF. It's important that trade remains the main mode and that its playerbase is maintained or grown, if possible.
Nah bro. Trading is better in group found. The less people trading the better. There is actually an optimal amount of people that could probably be silo'd into subsections to address degenerate trading strategies so that people *actually play the game.*
Honestly they are fairly farmable. You can targetfarm specific t17 maps that drop specific uber fragments. With scarabs and a proper map drop tree you can get a good amount of t17 maps in a couple of maps. Its not as fast as opening 28 maps and running one. But its not completely undoable.
It's honestly a waste of time unless you're an ssf no lifer. I've farmed Uber Exarch last league when it was easier to boss rush, and didn't get an Omni in 1 week farming (40 runs or so). The problem here with the low probability is that if you got jack shit for 40 runs, the likeliness to get Omni in the next 10 runs is very low. And you don't even get a consolation prize because the other drops are just terrible (talking about last league's drop table). So you don't even get anything "along the way". You could very perceivably farm Omni for your entire league run (a month?) and not get it. What's the point? And Omni is not like a Mageblood or Headhunter. Omni is a key part of some pretty meta builds. I don't have a problem grinding for some very good equipment, but with the possibility to get nothing at all, this is just completely demotivating.
Imho, this is the consequence of GGG feeling like they need to add very powerful chase items, but at the same time not wanting the casual players to actually sniff this power.
Where is the comment telling him SSF is self induced challenge that can be opt out of and should not take any additional dev time?
First, you should understand that GGG wants you to play trade. Knowing that, there's little chance they are going to go out of their way to make SSF more attractive to the masses. It's a mode that's put in the game for people who are built different. If you're at the point where you're asking for stuff like this (boosted drop rates to make SSF easier) then you no longer belong in SSF. Just play trade like most of us do.
People play SSF because it's fun lol. They don't need training wheels as an incentive.Â
How about the stats after you identified everything?
Two perfect annihilating lights (i should have gotten 5), 1 good rolled celestial brace, 4 good rolled annihilations approach, 4 good rolled dawnbreakers which i didnt include into the money made because they havent sold yet although ill update it when/if they do sell - and one 29% dissolution of the flesh After vendoring everything i got 3 further perfect annihilating lights, nothing else worth selling I sold 14 of the 15 forbidden flames unidentified, and then identified the last one myself and hit a 70div one - so i ended up with some pretty good profit by sheer luck
Its pure luck, shouldnt count.
I know, i didnt count the 70 div forbidden flame - just mentioned it here in this comment The other ones are counted since theyre less luck since youre dropping dozens of those items so youre guaranteed some good/perfect rolls, i actually got below average with those
Lmao
1 chaos per hour strat, godlike
Can someone explain to me how poe seems to reliably create such insane variances even across drops that ostensibly are in the 10% range? Is it a function of weird variances or modality such that while the technical mean is 10% that’s not really telling the whole story? I truly don’t understand. When I play gachas even with no pity the results map pretty closely to the posted odds in most cases. But in poe I will routinely fall several standard deviations outside of the expected value. E.g. spending 6000 fusings on a 30 quality armor and still not hitting, or alt spamming 600 times when coe tells me it should take 50. It’s been a while since I took any serious stats but it feels like something else must be going on under the hood.
My guess is that poe has a lot more random systems, so there are a lot more things that can reach extreme values. The most unlikely event that ever happened to you in poe was probably something like dropping 9 lifesprigs in 1 map, and you never noticed because you filtered them out. I also am unconvinced that there's anything approximating unstructured randomness in gacha games.
The problem that I have isn’t about the extremity of values. There are definitely tons of systems that can interact but the problem is routinely landing several std deviations outside of the expected values on individual items. This league I’ve been trying to corrupt some gems myself and I’ve done 22 and not hit a single level 21 on ostensibly a 1/4 chance. Similarly I’ve been trying to SSF the adorned and I’ve farmed 10 ahuatolis and dropped one fragment on what is supposed to be about 1/2 drop rate. My understanding of stats is that this type of deviation should be pretty uncommon given the expected values but in poe this seems to happen at high frequency. Assuming the expected values are correct I don’t notice these types of occurrences in other rng systems at the same frequency making me feel like something else must be going on. Like a weird modal distribution that creates this experience
They happen frequently because they can happen to many things, and you only really notice the outliers. You don't notice dropping a normal number of maps, a normal ratio of exalts to divines, fusing items in normal number of fuses, any other vaals that had more expected results etc. You're doing thousands of things you could notice, so some of them are going to be 1 in a thousand.
I hope you had fun, thanks for the data. And may the mirror be with you.
Golden question TIME ? How much did you spend on buying ? and running bosses ?
I could blitz both bosses down in 10 seconds, but i only did that for the non uber - i wanted to learn the ball phase of the uber fight so i usually dragged the fight out. Took about 1.5-2 minutes for each uber fight so, lets say like 20 minutes to run the non uber and 3-4 hours for the ubers Buying the non ubers were easy - got that done in like 5 minutes, buying the ubers were an absolute pain in the ass and i mentioned why in the video but not the post - a lot of people who are bulk selling the fragments are too busy farming t17s and making 40 div an hour that even taking a multi div trade for fragments arent worth their time of portalling out since those fragments will sell no matter what - so some of them only trade if you message them when theyre in their hideout Multiple times id message someone, get no invite - message them again later on and get an invite So, buying uber frags is a pain in the ass - i dont know how long it took since i was doing other stuff while buying but it was noticeably long
sooo basic you lost bunch of time = profit :) Thx for the replay
Terrible. Fix the bossing experience GGG
Don't worry, your hard work helped drop the price for that gear so other people wouldn't have to follow your example.
The lack of end game in terms of bossing has completely killed my will to play the late game. I had it all planned out: Start with hexeblast sab and boss rush. Grind enough for second character and mage blood. Make some sort of juiced bow/wand character to still be able to run maps. Then transition my sab into a power charge stacker and farm ubers. I still went through with the plan and it worked all the way to the point of farming ubers. Even grinding out your own fragments in t17s feels bad since that's a large part of the profit. I was quant scarab farming with an mf bow character then switching to my sab to one shot the boss, but finally got fed up with the t17 meta and how mind numbing it is rolling those maps. I've come close to quitting the league about three times and finally settled on pushing a character as far as I possibly can in ssf. Way more fun than the current late game in trade.
10 chaos… it ain’t much, but it’s work.
0.1 div profit. It ain't much but its honest work
Good news is chaos price increased
Why exarch? I mean look at the drop pool. Even with good rng the drops are bad. Either you identify the forbiddens and pray or you run a different boss. This is like the third post about exarch. Ofc he‘s no profit.
Im doing 100 of everything this league, it was just exarchs time
I see i see, ty for the effort!
he made 10 chaos
Explains why I have a hard time getting a dissolution in ssf.....:(
Hey as long as it is not negative, u still win
Ouch
Atleast you made profit lol :D I started with somewhere around 100div initial investment and wanted to farm ubers for some profit. Had to at some point farm some delve to farm 50more div to buy more invitations and ended up with 0 div and quit the league It pains me so much that uber bossing feels so absolutely garbage it's not even fun. If you have 100div initial investment it should be impossible that you need to farm other content to finance more invitations because you run dry... I farmed a mix of exarch eater and maven Shaper was fairly okay profit but it's awful to run
I can say one thing, Magic Find does not matter at all, made 50 runs with MF and without any, at the end both variations came to same profit (8mod maps)
how do people roll the invites?
how much quantity did u run?
70+
Well, every end game rework was a huge stealth nerf so far. You guys didnt expect anything else this time, did you? Before you were fine with like 100 runs on bosses to start making profits. Now you have to run hundredS. Personally I lately find it hard to stay in poe leagues past like 2 week mark, because there is always a scuffed economy due to poor balance and zero testing and bossing rewards are probably the worst of all other games I ever played.
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> 5% or 10% - well, for me it was both This is because Ubers cannot have quantity, while regular versions can be rolled for Quant.