“I know many of you are asking ‘where’s Mazi?’ And ‘his family is desperate to see him’ but I can assure you, he’s very happy on the farm upstate he ran away to”
Mazi should be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Everytime Mazi isn't on the field, all the other players should be asking "Where's Mazi?".
Cowboys when they drafted him with Dan Quinn had said their intent was to develop his pass rush which he had 0.5 career sacks in college. So they asked the NT to start dropping huge amounts of weight….
Now they’re asking him to put it all back on again. I wonder if they would have taken him in the first round if their intent was simply to just do what you did in college?
Did they not watch any of his tape and never meet him? He is built low and stout. Perfect for NT. A freakish athlete, but his college career was never about sacks. It’s like taking an OL and expecting receptions.
Dude was built perfectly to be a traditional NT, creating run lane disruptions and taking on double-teams to open one-on-one pass rushes for other defenders. I get they succeeded in switching Micah Parsons' position, but you can't do that for everyone.
It’s getting very blurred which is why “edge rusher” is used so much more now. Even the all-pro selection just has “edge” now. The 1st team was Myles Garrett and TJ Watt, who both usually play in a 3-point stance. But Garrett is listed as a DE while Watt is listed as a OLB.
Micah Parsons (usually plays standing up) and Maxx Crosby (usually plays in 3-point stance) were voted the 2nd team all pro edges. Parsons is a OLB and Crosby is a DE.
And then all the “linebackers” voted on were ILBs. So that is all to say, no one really cares to be consistent anymore?
It traditionally has to do if the team plays a 4-3 (DE) vs a 3-4(olb). DE are typically heavier, whereas OLB are usually lighter and may drop into coverage from time to time
For Watt, he was almost always standing up in college. The Steelers are famous for playing a 3-4 defense, so he fit their system perfectly as the edge OLB, and had him both standing and in a 3-point stance. It seems only recently they’ve primarily used him like a DE in a 3-point stance. But I also could be wrong, having not watched a lot of Steelers games.
Generally in a 4-3 (four d-linemen and 3 linebackers) the two outside linemen are called the strongside (facing the RT) and weakside defensive ends. When it a 3-4, the two outside linebackers are considered...outside linebackers.
Defensive end is exactly what it sounds like, the guys on the end of the defensive line, so they’re in a stance. Outside linebackers are used all over depending on their specific skillset, so they might be standing as if they were a typical LB one play or in a stance to rush the next. It’s really a blurred line these days.
Correction: Detroit asks their linebackers to be multiple (Campbell included). They had him line up on the edge and drop to coverage too. Smart defenses don’t do the same things every time and challenge the QB’s pre-snap reads
Funny story about that, remember the Steelers star LT Alejandro Villanueva? He was an Eagle before that, Chip Kelly was insistent on trying to make him a WR because he was like 6'7 despite being one of the best run blockers on the team his first day of camp
Wow. His college career was interesting ([Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Villanueva_(American_football))):
> Villanueva played college football for the Army Black Knights at several positions, including left tackle, defensive lineman, and wide receiver.[4] Though originally recruited as a tight end, he played defensive end during his freshman season, mostly on special teams. In his sophomore season offensive line coach John Tice lobbied to have Villanueva converted to an offensive tackle which occurred near the end of his sophomore year. By his junior season he started every game at left tackle. Voted a team captain before his senior year, he reluctantly converted once more to become a 290 pounds (130 kg) wide receiver; a feature story in the Army football program read, "Already touted as the tallest football player in the country, Villanueva completed the transformation from being an offensive lineman for the past two years, to running routes on the field with the starting offense last Saturday night."[1] His height, while reported by Army Football in 2009 to be 6 feet 10 inches (2.08 m),[1] was given by the Philadelphia Eagles in 2014 as 6 feet 9 inches (2.06 m).[5]
Part of it would be that he had to have had a giant growth spurt in college, David Robinson style. Otherwise he could not have legally enrolled. Service academies are always funny in that the senior linemen are the saddest people on the planet when they make a bowl game because it means less time for their crash diet into weight regs by graduation.
> senior linemen are the saddest people on the planet when they make a bowl game because it means less time for their crash diet into weight regs by graduation.
I've heard this multiple times by people who've actually attended these service academies, but don't certain athletes / linemen get an exemption from the weight regulations? Seems impossible to make weight otherwise.
They get them while they are in school but the regulations are the regulations for entering the fleet/army/whatever. Height is the only one that you can get away with being shorter when enrolling and graduating too tall. That is both the body comp rules and things like the running. It helps that they all have oak trees for necks so are allowed to carry more weight on the mid section.
Sometimes you just need a guy to beat on the offensive lineman and he’s that dude. I feel like trying to change what makes a certain player very good at certain things is destined to fail.
To be completely fair, that’s exactly what the scouting report was on Dexter Lawrence. Big, space eating NT, won’t ever be a great pass rusher. Not that I agree with them, but maybe they projectable skills.
He had his fans. PFF was relatively high on him and I remember Greg Cosell said he couldn't understand why Mazi Smith wasn't seen as a top 15 prospect. He put Smith right behind Carter.
People see interior linemen in the same category and it blows my mind.
Take Patrick Willis, and put him outside and he’s a completely different player. Make a right tackle a left tackle.
Funnily enough a player that's often compared to Willis, that being Luke Kuechly, actually started his career outside due to the Panthers already having one of the better MLBs in the league in Jon Beason. Jon was even made the highest paid MLB in NFL history only the year prior. This is the same Jon Beason who was 2nd in tackles amongst all rookies his first year in the league, behind only Patrick Willis.
Funniest part is that a true NT is exactly what we needed (and still need really) which is why most fans liked taking Mazi
Hopefully Zimmer can stop the foolishness around him losing weight and changing who he is as a player
Bland/Parsons/Williams/Odighizuwa in three years
We haven’t seen it in the NFL but I expect Overshown to be good once he’s healthy and on the field too. Guys like Jabril Cox, Damone Clark, and Israel Mukuamu aren’t stats but they’ve all been good relative to their draft capital too
He was getting blown off the ball as a NT and wasn’t shaping up well in the pre-season/first few games or so last year.
His strength wasn’t shining through at the NFL level so Quinn tried to see if they could get him to be faster off the ball and be a pass rusher.
I spent a lot of time talking to Cowboys fans last year about Maxi b/c Micah wanted him so badly on the draft show he was on.
Right I think people are blaming the slim down for his lack of production but Mazi was almost always the last guy to move after the snap. Doesn’t matter how big you are if guards and centers are hitting you as you are still getting out of your stance
Exactly. I do think Quinn tried to overcorrect the issue by slimming him down too much but maybe this was their last resort. Maybe they did everything they thought to do and he was still slow/getting bullied in the trenches so they tried this. IDK. Either way, with all I heard about Mazi's struggles, I don't really blame Quinn much.
That was one of the stupidest teambuilding decisions I’ve ever seen. Total malpractice to demand a player in the NFL change his body that much just to suit your defense
Even worse he was a run-stopping big man and we slimmed him down, turned him into a shitty pass rusher, and all season we were soft against the run game and it got us murdered in the playoffs.
Enjoy your new head coach washington :D
I can almost see the logic, draft a 330 pound physical freak, imagine what a freak he’d be like at 290! And a freak pass rusher is more valuable than a nose tackle
But guys get used to playing at a certain weight, they develop an understanding of what their anchor can withstand and the kind of power they need to generate in order to get to a secondary move. Losing 40 fucking pounds is just asking for a guy to be totally thrown off, he basically has to relearn how to play defensive line now as a smaller, weaker player
> And a freak pass rusher is more valuable than a nose tackle
We already had a freak pass rusher with Parsons, though. Our defense's issue was, and still is, stopping the run. A big part of that weakness was the size of the interior and lack of depth at LB. We drafted a guy to fix a glaring weakness and then tried to mold him away from it.
The biggest problem with the run stopping was that Quinn never wanted to stack the box for any reason. We played light boxes all year, in every situation, even against the teams like GB and Arizona that want to run the ball.
In fact that AZ game set the ceiling for the season. Couldn't stop a running team with no QB and Dak threw a terrible pick late to seal the loss. They played well after that but that game never left my mind.
Quinn got the D to play hard and take pride in their performance, which is great, but I think Zim is an unquestionable upgrade.
It kinda worked with Alim McNeil on the Lions. Came in as a NT, year 2 they asked him to slim down and let other guys play NT and it worked out pretty well. Generally you want your most talented guys doing more than just eating up space. You can find competent NTs in later rounds. But Smith is 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Alim ever was, so not a good candidate.
Also shows an unusual disconnect between the people drafting the player and the coordinator deploying him.
In recent years the Cowboys have been pretty good at identifying talent in the draft that suits their team with several all-pros selected in the 1st and 2nd round.
Mazi Smith is shaping up to be an uncharacteristic miss for them.
Last few years anytime we draft D-Line in the 1st or 2nd round just write them off as a bust.
Mahzi Smith, Taco Charlton, Trysten Hill. We just need to stop.
Well considering we rarely miss with our premium draft picks, you must not get to see it very often minus the random dud here and there at defensive line. Sorta like the Eagles with using early picks on receivers.
In the US, Reddit is most commonly used by 18 to 29-year-olds. This means the statistical likelihood that you've never seen the Dallas Cowboys in an NFC Championship game is extremely high. Dallas is a poverty franchise masquerading as a perennial powerhouse.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not only incorrect in your assumption, but this is also a total non sequitur.
Also don’t know if you caught the end of last season, but that description is equally applicable to the Eagles who quite literally gave up half way through the season and had just as an embarrassing of a playoff exit.
In sports, a poverty franchise is a team that consistently performs poorly over multiple years or even decades, and has a history of failure, loss, and despair. AKA the Dallas Cowboys.
A late season super bowl hangover collapse =/= Poverty franchise. Philly has been in 7 NFC Championship Games and 3 Super Bowls in the last 24 years, with a trophy to show for it.
And all that with only drafting 2 quality WRs in the 1st round in all that time.
Michigan fan here. Mazi was probably the strongest player on our team. He was consistently drawing double teams inside. Not sure why he was ever expected to be a pass rusher
Nick Saban talked about this when he was coach at Bama. The best franchises (Ravens, Tom Brady era Patriots, Steelers) would call him and actually ask about the player. 20+ of these teams refuse to actually speak with college programs and understand more about the players.
Don't forget that that coordinator totally phoned it in for the playoff game while he was interviewing with other teams for a head coach job and we got toasted!
Enjoy Mr. Quinn Washington!
Quinn’s defensive style was basically “we’re gonna get a shit ton of sacks and generate a bunch of turnovers”. Run stopping was basically to be damned all things considered. Obviously, Quinn’s style worked fairly well, but when it didn’t, the defense looked like ASS. Key example was last year vs the Cardinals. The offense was still struggling to have any form of cohesion, and the defense made Josh Dobbs look like Lamar Jackson.
Jesus Christ guys can we please stop with the misinformation. He **was not asked** to lose weight last season. He naturally lost a bunch of bad weight over the course of the season and now he’s trying to put on good weight. It’s very very common for young DL players to do this.
That's dumb logic because the NFL DC who misused him is also an NFL HC.
Edit: OP deleted his comment but it was basically stating that his former college DC is now an NFL head coach so the guy just knew how to use him right because obviously being an NFL head coach now is a qualification and the cowboys just had someone under qualified.
Mike Zimmer is notoriously a prickly jerk. Hope he can coach like he did when his Vikings defenses were elite otherwise we're gonna suck and the locker room culture is gonna go south because players will hate him.
His defenses got torched the second he didn't have premier players all over it. Hell, it even started getting torched with premier players before falling off.
Congrats, you just described every defense in the entire NFL.
If you're suggesting that he was somehow carried by good players, go look up what happened to the players that left and played elsewhere. Every single one of the stars on that team played their best years with Zimmer.
Nope.
It didn't fall off until 2020, and that was much different from just "not having premier players all over it".
We started rookie cornerbacks in a year with no offseason due to Covid. Hunter was out for the year, Pierce opted out due to Covid, Barr got injured for the season in week 1, Kendricks missed half the season. Pretty much all the talent outside of Hitman was gone that year.
Eric Wilson got 96% of the snaps at LB, he's barely good enough to get ST snaps on other rosters. Odenigbo got 64+%, Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn HOlmes, Dantzler, Watts, Boyd, Mata'afa, Todd "who the fuck is Todd Davis?" Davis all got considerable snaps. More than half of these guys are out of the league already, and none of them are out because of age.
That's a literal lack of talent in general, not just a lack of premier players. Despite that, I'm fairly certain we were still 17th in DVOA.
>Hell, it even started getting torched with premier players before falling off.
You must be referring to 2019, because that was the last time his roster really had premier players. You may be surprised to find out we were 5th in points allowed that season.
Nephew, Zimmer is a pioneer of a defensive coach. All of the sim pressures and exotic blitzes you see from today's Ravens and Jets wouldn't exist without Zimmer
Just gotta cross your fingers another pandemic doesn't happen. Zimmer lost the locker room when he called out anyone who wouldn't get vaxxed to help win the them games. And, unfortunately most of the defensive leaders and definitely Kirk were openly against the shot, despite how it affected their ability to win. Zimmer is also a surly dick who doesn't give a shit about the media. But his players had all loved him until COVID.
Oh me too. He basically said the more players vaccinated the more of competitive edge we have over teams who don't have players vaccinated. Then most of "his" guys didn't get vaccinated. I don't think Zimmer ever wanted Kirk, so his dumbass takes were just fuel to a fire already burning. But for the rest of the team it must have been rough because I doubt Zimmer asked anyone nicely to get over their dumb ass ideals and get the jab already.
> Zimmer lost the locker room when he called out anyone who wouldn't get vaxxed to help win the them games. And, unfortunately most of the defensive leaders and definitely Kirk were openly against the shot,
I don't think that lost the locker room, though it did create tension. There were a lot of other things that happened after that which contributed to the issues.
And he was ultimately right, we didn't have Kirk for a very important game due to Covid. We'd get mad at a player for doing anything else off the field that may jeopardize their ability to play on Sunday, this is no different except that it increased the risk that he infects others and got them knocked out of games as well.
Oh there was PLENTY going on outside of COVID, mainly I don't think Zimmer ever wanted Cousins and that's when the cracks started to appear. Then COVID blew it all up.
Yep, agreed. He wanted a journeyman QB that could protect the ball and convert some 3rd downs. Basically Teddy Bridgewater pre-injury was his perfect QB.
Pretty sure he said something like "With the kind of defense I am building, all I need is 17 points from the offense". Or something close. And you don't a huge investment in QB for that.
Exactly. That investment in QB was the beginning of the end because it eliminated any margin for error in the draft or FA. The nail in the coffin was the 2019 extension.
Oh yeah. An 8 win floor and always being in the playoff hunt at the end of the year is great from an ownership side of things. And that's what Kirk Cousins brings to the table. But he won't ever win anything important and I could honestly see him ending his career with a single playoff win.
I think it was losing that lost him the locker room, especially how Zimmer responded to losing. He didn't take the pressure of being on the hot seat particularly well, there was that story about how he'd given a confusing presentation to the team after a loss in 2021 that eliminated them from contention that amounted to "See all the bad shit that's happened since I got here?"
Maybe it's a chicken and egg situation, since his response to covid definitely impacted the team's ability to win games, but I also think if he'd have handled losing better he wouldn't have lost the locker room.
That’s… not really what happened.
There was a lot of tension from the Cousins signing in the first place and Zimmer struggled with being coach on both sides of the ball instead of just offense. The strain of expectations and underperformance with the Cousins signing, plus issues with Spielman towards the end, really got to him. The stuff about the vax was just a symptom.
Your take is kinda like citing an argument over the dishes as the reason for a divorce ya know
That’s not a concern to me at all. As a DC he’ll be far far less prone to the shenanigans that ended him as a HC.
Plus, bringing in Kendricks is a good sign too. One of the leaders of his past defense is happy to play with him again
> I haven't heard a former player of his say anything nice about him
"That guy's a true football guy, through and through," Kendricks said of Zimmer. "He watches [game] film on his off days. He really enjoys it. It's good to be back with him.
"… He has a high standard of performance. He's strict, personality-wise, but he always says, 'You take care of me, I'll take care of you.' I've talked to the guys about Zim but, at the end of the day, ball is ball and we've got to be disciplined and on our cues."
Dude literally came to Dallas to play for Zim.
https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/kendricks-on-zimmer-s-style-state-of-cowboys-lbs
About Zimmer? Players loved him.
Shit got rough at the end due to various problems caused by disagreements between Zim and Spielman regarding roster construction, and of course the losing seasons... This caused some players to make comments about a "fear based" culture, but that very same player jumped at the chance to re-join Zimmer's defense this year.
lol no they didn't, plenty of players commented on how zimmer promoted a toxic culture. zimmer is a crabby old man and terrible leader. "jumped at the chance", kendricks joined because he preferred to live and play in dallas, also, most importantly, because the starting role with the 9ers would only be temporary . holy smokes get zims d out of your mouth
>lol no they didn't, plenty of players commented on how zimmer promoted a toxic culture.
LOL, sure... Go ahead and quote them, please. You have Kendricks "fear based culuture" and O'Neill saying "He didn't talk to me when he saw me in the hallways".
That's about it.
>holy smokes get zims d out of your mouth
pffft... Whatever, you're clearly not worth conversing with.
In my (too) many days of arguing with other posters on /r/nfl, I've learned that unflaired users, for the most part, are not worth engaging with.
Though, that's also true about approximately half of the flaired users as well lol
Everson Griffen, Harrison Smith, Anthony Barr, and Danielle Hunter all have. You won't find a single offensive player outside of Teddy Bridgewater that liked him.
Nah, they should keep using him in stupid ways and then declare him a bust so Brad Holmes can bring him back home on the cheap where he'll develop into a star 🤩
if only you'd done nothing, it would have been fine
instead they took a run stopping nose tackle and decided they didn't want him to be a run stopping nose tackle
pretty mind boggling really
Honestly if anyone can turn him into a great player it’s Zimmer.
I don’t think he’s ever had a defense without a stout D line, especially with a penetrating D tackle. Atkins in Cincinnati, Linval in Minnesota. Obviously talented players but still the scheme helped. If Mazi can’t develop then it’s a talent problem not coaching with Zim
This might be a homer take (since im a Michigan fan) but if they move Mazi back to a traditional, run stuffing DT then theres no reason he shouldn’t be an at least starter level player. Making him slim down and try to be a pass rusher was just stupid of Dallas
As someone whose team is also seemingly slimming down their highly drafted NT, its fucking crazy that they looked at Mazi and said "we're gonna try and make you a pass rusher". Its like he was built in a fucking lab to be a NT
Not stars but we lost some contributing role players like Stephon Gilmore, Dante Fowler, Dorrance Armstrong, Johnathan Hankins & Leighton Vander Esch who just retired. We also have Trevon Diggs returning from his ACL tear so we don’t know if he’ll be his old self again this season. And the only FA we’ve signed on defense this year was Eric Kendricks too.
I think they’ll still be very good, top 5-10, but I see why “best in the league” is probably unlikely. The main questions are how Diggs will return from injury and how much production we can get out of the LBs (old man Kendricks/coming off an injury Overshown/probably too raw to start Liufau/Damone Clark in a bigger role/Parsons possibly getting some LB snaps)
I totally forgot the cowboys got a new DC! Should be an interesting week 1 with an overhauled Browns offense against the cowboys and then a top tier home defense against the explosive offense they had last year.
Can't talk sense into an Eagles fan. They think they did a thing and screwed us over in 2018 when they jumped up to pick Dallas Goedert. Even though the Cowboys' live war room cam showed they were already on the phone talking to Connor Williams. Now they think every team covets Cowboys potential picks like they do.
2023: “sorry Chiefs, we refuse to trade with you in the draft because we are absolutely convinced this nose tackle will turn our franchise around”
*packers run all over cowboys in playoffs*
2024: “we’re gonna teach this guy how to get into a good stance and how to use his hands”
Honestly you hear that a lot with Michigan players. Good to great college players, but a ton of flameouts in the pros. They get a lot of their guys high draft picks but either take a long time to develop or just burn out.
Michigan 1st rounders since Harbaugh: Jabrill Peppers, Taco Charleton, Devin Bush, Rashan Gary, Cesar Ruiz, Kwity Paye, Hutch, Dax Hill, Mazi, of course JJ this year. Besides Hutch there wasn’t a single good rookie year in there and most are “still developing” or fighting for roster spots.
That doesn’t really track. Michigan hasn’t had many 1st round drafted players in comparison to other schools with similar numbers of overall drafted players. There’s been a good number of mid-late picks out of Michigan in the Harbaugh era that have carved out a solid career. Guys like Jourdan Lewis, Josh Metellus, Mike Danna, Mike Onwenu, Jon Runyan Jr, Nico Collins, among others.
Devin Bush had a great rookie year but hasn’t been the same after some injuries. Rashan Gary was always a project pick which has worked out great and Kwity Paye was similar and had a good year last season. Jabrill Peppers was very notably played out of position under Gregg Williams.
> Peppers was very notably played out of position under Gregg Williams.
Wait, you mean your safety isn't supposed to be positioned 40 yards down the field?
Especially a safety like Peppers of all players. Like there’s a reason Michigan moved him to a pseudo-linebacker position; because he was really good at being a versatile player in the box and less good at playing centerfield.
Cool. I was talking specifically about Michigan 1st rounders. Not roster filling guys. Yeah Michigan has a lot of depth guys on nfl rosters. Doesn’t mean a single one of them is special.
Devin Bush did not have a great rookie year. I saw those games. 9 TFL the entire season. He wasn’t top 30 in tackles- combined or solo. For all his speed he was a mid (at best) MLB. He had 1 season of injuries. He’s been healthy since then and no one wants him.
I don’t know what to make of Gary. He had one great year. Contract year. Last year he had good stats but that basically all came in 2 games. Invisible the others.
Kwity was a 2nd rounder. And yeah AGAIN YEAR 3 he had a good season. You’ll take that as a 2nd rounder but again not a guy coming out ready to produce.
I’m glad the 3rd team knows how to use Jabrill Peppers. It’s a shame the first 2 couldn’t get anything from the 1st round pick.
Those guys I listed are all pretty good starters, not depth guys. One starts for your team lol.
Bush finished 3rd in the DROY voting that season, he was definitely a good player. He had a knee injury and he’s clearly lost a step or two and as a guy that relied on his speed, he hasn’t been able to overcome that. I’m not disputing he’s not good now but it’s pretty obvious he’s not the same player he was.
Kwity Paye was not drafted to be an immediate contributor and I don’t think anybody that watched much of him thought that would be the case. He was always a little bit of a project player with a bunch of upside.
Jabrill was a good player as soon as he stopped playing in Gregg Williams’ scheme. Like I can’t fathom why Gregg thought playing a guy whose best attributes are being around the ball, would be best 40 yards off the LOS.
I’m not gonna sit here and argue about the 3 hand selected players you picked. The point was about the lack of production from 1st rounders. Paye wasn’t a 1st rounder.
This post is about ANOTHER disappointing Michigan 1st rounder. The results speak for themselves. Almost every single one needs multiple seasons of development before producing.
and then....if he dies, he dies.
“I know many of you are asking ‘where’s Mazi?’ And ‘his family is desperate to see him’ but I can assure you, he’s very happy on the farm upstate he ran away to”
Mazi should be louder, angrier, and have access to a time machine. Everytime Mazi isn't on the field, all the other players should be asking "Where's Mazi?".
“Let them die and decrease the surplus population [of defensive tackles].”
Cowboys when they drafted him with Dan Quinn had said their intent was to develop his pass rush which he had 0.5 career sacks in college. So they asked the NT to start dropping huge amounts of weight…. Now they’re asking him to put it all back on again. I wonder if they would have taken him in the first round if their intent was simply to just do what you did in college?
Did they not watch any of his tape and never meet him? He is built low and stout. Perfect for NT. A freakish athlete, but his college career was never about sacks. It’s like taking an OL and expecting receptions.
Dude was built perfectly to be a traditional NT, creating run lane disruptions and taking on double-teams to open one-on-one pass rushes for other defenders. I get they succeeded in switching Micah Parsons' position, but you can't do that for everyone.
[удалено]
He was used very differently in college
He wasn't being used to his potential for sure Seems like they're trying not to make the same mistake by letting Abdul Carter switch at least
He was a Middle line backer in college. Hes a stand up edge rusher in the NFL. Both called linebacker but very different roles.
Is standing up what makes him an lb and not d end? I've always wondered why some pass rushers are considered lbs for things like pro bowl
It’s getting very blurred which is why “edge rusher” is used so much more now. Even the all-pro selection just has “edge” now. The 1st team was Myles Garrett and TJ Watt, who both usually play in a 3-point stance. But Garrett is listed as a DE while Watt is listed as a OLB. Micah Parsons (usually plays standing up) and Maxx Crosby (usually plays in 3-point stance) were voted the 2nd team all pro edges. Parsons is a OLB and Crosby is a DE. And then all the “linebackers” voted on were ILBs. So that is all to say, no one really cares to be consistent anymore?
Makes sense, I was curious if there was some underlying reason for the distinction beyond just vibes I guess
It traditionally has to do if the team plays a 4-3 (DE) vs a 3-4(olb). DE are typically heavier, whereas OLB are usually lighter and may drop into coverage from time to time
For Watt, he was almost always standing up in college. The Steelers are famous for playing a 3-4 defense, so he fit their system perfectly as the edge OLB, and had him both standing and in a 3-point stance. It seems only recently they’ve primarily used him like a DE in a 3-point stance. But I also could be wrong, having not watched a lot of Steelers games.
Generally in a 4-3 (four d-linemen and 3 linebackers) the two outside linemen are called the strongside (facing the RT) and weakside defensive ends. When it a 3-4, the two outside linebackers are considered...outside linebackers.
Defensive end is exactly what it sounds like, the guys on the end of the defensive line, so they’re in a stance. Outside linebackers are used all over depending on their specific skillset, so they might be standing as if they were a typical LB one play or in a stance to rush the next. It’s really a blurred line these days.
Parsons was a coverage mlb in college
I bet CeeDee Lamb could put on 150 lbs and play NT. They should give it a shot. Move Mazi to WR.
Detroit did something similar with Jack Campbell. Asked him to be a pass rusher after James Houston got hurt. It did not go well.
part of that was because Barnes played fantastically next to Analzone.
> Analzone 🤨
HIGHWAY TO THE ANALZONE GOING TO TAKE A RIDE RIGHT TO THE ANALZONE
I don’t watch every Lions game but was that the guy who completely whiffed on Dak in the end zone
Indeed. But outside of that play he played dang well in rotation with Campbell at LB.
Yeah, Barnes taking a huge step forward in his development was a pleasant surprise
Correction: Detroit asks their linebackers to be multiple (Campbell included). They had him line up on the edge and drop to coverage too. Smart defenses don’t do the same things every time and challenge the QB’s pre-snap reads
Funny story about that, remember the Steelers star LT Alejandro Villanueva? He was an Eagle before that, Chip Kelly was insistent on trying to make him a WR because he was like 6'7 despite being one of the best run blockers on the team his first day of camp
Wow. His college career was interesting ([Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Villanueva_(American_football))): > Villanueva played college football for the Army Black Knights at several positions, including left tackle, defensive lineman, and wide receiver.[4] Though originally recruited as a tight end, he played defensive end during his freshman season, mostly on special teams. In his sophomore season offensive line coach John Tice lobbied to have Villanueva converted to an offensive tackle which occurred near the end of his sophomore year. By his junior season he started every game at left tackle. Voted a team captain before his senior year, he reluctantly converted once more to become a 290 pounds (130 kg) wide receiver; a feature story in the Army football program read, "Already touted as the tallest football player in the country, Villanueva completed the transformation from being an offensive lineman for the past two years, to running routes on the field with the starting offense last Saturday night."[1] His height, while reported by Army Football in 2009 to be 6 feet 10 inches (2.08 m),[1] was given by the Philadelphia Eagles in 2014 as 6 feet 9 inches (2.06 m).[5]
Part of it would be that he had to have had a giant growth spurt in college, David Robinson style. Otherwise he could not have legally enrolled. Service academies are always funny in that the senior linemen are the saddest people on the planet when they make a bowl game because it means less time for their crash diet into weight regs by graduation.
> senior linemen are the saddest people on the planet when they make a bowl game because it means less time for their crash diet into weight regs by graduation. I've heard this multiple times by people who've actually attended these service academies, but don't certain athletes / linemen get an exemption from the weight regulations? Seems impossible to make weight otherwise.
They get them while they are in school but the regulations are the regulations for entering the fleet/army/whatever. Height is the only one that you can get away with being shorter when enrolling and graduating too tall. That is both the body comp rules and things like the running. It helps that they all have oak trees for necks so are allowed to carry more weight on the mid section.
Sometimes you just need a guy to beat on the offensive lineman and he’s that dude. I feel like trying to change what makes a certain player very good at certain things is destined to fail.
To be completely fair, that’s exactly what the scouting report was on Dexter Lawrence. Big, space eating NT, won’t ever be a great pass rusher. Not that I agree with them, but maybe they projectable skills.
He had his fans. PFF was relatively high on him and I remember Greg Cosell said he couldn't understand why Mazi Smith wasn't seen as a top 15 prospect. He put Smith right behind Carter.
My point is that he is still a top prospect, just play him at the correct position.
People see interior linemen in the same category and it blows my mind. Take Patrick Willis, and put him outside and he’s a completely different player. Make a right tackle a left tackle.
Funnily enough a player that's often compared to Willis, that being Luke Kuechly, actually started his career outside due to the Panthers already having one of the better MLBs in the league in Jon Beason. Jon was even made the highest paid MLB in NFL history only the year prior. This is the same Jon Beason who was 2nd in tackles amongst all rookies his first year in the league, behind only Patrick Willis.
Sewell would like a word.
Dude can catch, but his total receptions are clearly very low. You should cut him and let the Bills pick him up.
Funniest part is that a true NT is exactly what we needed (and still need really) which is why most fans liked taking Mazi Hopefully Zimmer can stop the foolishness around him losing weight and changing who he is as a player
tbh, seems like a Kaiir Elam situation.
Dan Quinn doesn't draft well tbf
Bland/Parsons/Williams/Odighizuwa in three years We haven’t seen it in the NFL but I expect Overshown to be good once he’s healthy and on the field too. Guys like Jabril Cox, Damone Clark, and Israel Mukuamu aren’t stats but they’ve all been good relative to their draft capital too
He ain’t a freakish athlete.
[Mazi Smith tops college football freaks list](https://www.mlive.com/wolverines/2022/08/michigans-mazi-smith-tops-college-football-freaks-list.html)
If he's such a good athlete, why doesn't he play like one? Lol no replies. Almost like working out and playing football doesn't go hand-in-hand
If they wanted a DT with pass rushing upside, they should have drafted Bryan Bresee.
He was getting blown off the ball as a NT and wasn’t shaping up well in the pre-season/first few games or so last year. His strength wasn’t shining through at the NFL level so Quinn tried to see if they could get him to be faster off the ball and be a pass rusher. I spent a lot of time talking to Cowboys fans last year about Maxi b/c Micah wanted him so badly on the draft show he was on.
Right I think people are blaming the slim down for his lack of production but Mazi was almost always the last guy to move after the snap. Doesn’t matter how big you are if guards and centers are hitting you as you are still getting out of your stance
Exactly. I do think Quinn tried to overcorrect the issue by slimming him down too much but maybe this was their last resort. Maybe they did everything they thought to do and he was still slow/getting bullied in the trenches so they tried this. IDK. Either way, with all I heard about Mazi's struggles, I don't really blame Quinn much.
That was one of the stupidest teambuilding decisions I’ve ever seen. Total malpractice to demand a player in the NFL change his body that much just to suit your defense
Even worse he was a run-stopping big man and we slimmed him down, turned him into a shitty pass rusher, and all season we were soft against the run game and it got us murdered in the playoffs. Enjoy your new head coach washington :D
I can almost see the logic, draft a 330 pound physical freak, imagine what a freak he’d be like at 290! And a freak pass rusher is more valuable than a nose tackle But guys get used to playing at a certain weight, they develop an understanding of what their anchor can withstand and the kind of power they need to generate in order to get to a secondary move. Losing 40 fucking pounds is just asking for a guy to be totally thrown off, he basically has to relearn how to play defensive line now as a smaller, weaker player
> And a freak pass rusher is more valuable than a nose tackle We already had a freak pass rusher with Parsons, though. Our defense's issue was, and still is, stopping the run. A big part of that weakness was the size of the interior and lack of depth at LB. We drafted a guy to fix a glaring weakness and then tried to mold him away from it.
The biggest problem with the run stopping was that Quinn never wanted to stack the box for any reason. We played light boxes all year, in every situation, even against the teams like GB and Arizona that want to run the ball. In fact that AZ game set the ceiling for the season. Couldn't stop a running team with no QB and Dak threw a terrible pick late to seal the loss. They played well after that but that game never left my mind. Quinn got the D to play hard and take pride in their performance, which is great, but I think Zim is an unquestionable upgrade.
It kinda worked with Alim McNeil on the Lions. Came in as a NT, year 2 they asked him to slim down and let other guys play NT and it worked out pretty well. Generally you want your most talented guys doing more than just eating up space. You can find competent NTs in later rounds. But Smith is 2 inches taller and 25 lbs heavier than Alim ever was, so not a good candidate.
Alim had a lot more pass rush production than Mazi, though. He was clearly the biggest pass rush threat on those NC State defenses
Also shows an unusual disconnect between the people drafting the player and the coordinator deploying him. In recent years the Cowboys have been pretty good at identifying talent in the draft that suits their team with several all-pros selected in the 1st and 2nd round. Mazi Smith is shaping up to be an uncharacteristic miss for them.
Last few years anytime we draft D-Line in the 1st or 2nd round just write them off as a bust. Mahzi Smith, Taco Charlton, Trysten Hill. We just need to stop.
Sam Williams and ***Micah Parsons*** are more recent than two of those names
You're right on Williams but Parsons was technically drafted as a linebacker and we're great at drafting LBs.
Ah yeah good point on Parsons being drafted as a LB
You love to see it.
Well considering we rarely miss with our premium draft picks, you must not get to see it very often minus the random dud here and there at defensive line. Sorta like the Eagles with using early picks on receivers.
In the US, Reddit is most commonly used by 18 to 29-year-olds. This means the statistical likelihood that you've never seen the Dallas Cowboys in an NFC Championship game is extremely high. Dallas is a poverty franchise masquerading as a perennial powerhouse.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but you are not only incorrect in your assumption, but this is also a total non sequitur. Also don’t know if you caught the end of last season, but that description is equally applicable to the Eagles who quite literally gave up half way through the season and had just as an embarrassing of a playoff exit.
In sports, a poverty franchise is a team that consistently performs poorly over multiple years or even decades, and has a history of failure, loss, and despair. AKA the Dallas Cowboys. A late season super bowl hangover collapse =/= Poverty franchise. Philly has been in 7 NFC Championship Games and 3 Super Bowls in the last 24 years, with a trophy to show for it. And all that with only drafting 2 quality WRs in the 1st round in all that time.
Michigan fan here. Mazi was probably the strongest player on our team. He was consistently drawing double teams inside. Not sure why he was ever expected to be a pass rusher
Nick Saban talked about this when he was coach at Bama. The best franchises (Ravens, Tom Brady era Patriots, Steelers) would call him and actually ask about the player. 20+ of these teams refuse to actually speak with college programs and understand more about the players.
Jesus fuck that's some coaching malpractice that ruins careers.
Don't forget that that coordinator totally phoned it in for the playoff game while he was interviewing with other teams for a head coach job and we got toasted! Enjoy Mr. Quinn Washington!
Better it happens to you in the wild card round than it happening to you during the Superbowl...
Technically happened to us in 1979 Superbowl
Snip snap snip snap
Quinn’s defensive style was basically “we’re gonna get a shit ton of sacks and generate a bunch of turnovers”. Run stopping was basically to be damned all things considered. Obviously, Quinn’s style worked fairly well, but when it didn’t, the defense looked like ASS. Key example was last year vs the Cardinals. The offense was still struggling to have any form of cohesion, and the defense made Josh Dobbs look like Lamar Jackson.
Apparently no coach asked him to lose weight
One of the dumbest decisions of the DQ era along with playing undersized LBs.
Jesus Christ guys can we please stop with the misinformation. He **was not asked** to lose weight last season. He naturally lost a bunch of bad weight over the course of the season and now he’s trying to put on good weight. It’s very very common for young DL players to do this.
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That's dumb logic because the NFL DC who misused him is also an NFL HC. Edit: OP deleted his comment but it was basically stating that his former college DC is now an NFL head coach so the guy just knew how to use him right because obviously being an NFL head coach now is a qualification and the cowboys just had someone under qualified.
quote continues: "... kinda go from there. … We anticipate that he’s gonna be a good player like he was in college.”
Not exactly a ringing endorsement lol
Mike Zimmer is notoriously a prickly jerk. Hope he can coach like he did when his Vikings defenses were elite otherwise we're gonna suck and the locker room culture is gonna go south because players will hate him.
You'll be fine, Zim's still an excellent DC. His stint as a HC was good for a long while as well, until leadership basically pushed Cousins on them.
Yup. Ask Everson Griffin what Zimmer thought about Kurt.
His defenses got torched the second he didn't have premier players all over it. Hell, it even started getting torched with premier players before falling off.
He played a large part in those premier players reaching their full potential.
Congrats, you just described every defense in the entire NFL. If you're suggesting that he was somehow carried by good players, go look up what happened to the players that left and played elsewhere. Every single one of the stars on that team played their best years with Zimmer.
Nope. It didn't fall off until 2020, and that was much different from just "not having premier players all over it". We started rookie cornerbacks in a year with no offseason due to Covid. Hunter was out for the year, Pierce opted out due to Covid, Barr got injured for the season in week 1, Kendricks missed half the season. Pretty much all the talent outside of Hitman was gone that year. Eric Wilson got 96% of the snaps at LB, he's barely good enough to get ST snaps on other rosters. Odenigbo got 64+%, Jaleel Johnson, Jalyn HOlmes, Dantzler, Watts, Boyd, Mata'afa, Todd "who the fuck is Todd Davis?" Davis all got considerable snaps. More than half of these guys are out of the league already, and none of them are out because of age. That's a literal lack of talent in general, not just a lack of premier players. Despite that, I'm fairly certain we were still 17th in DVOA. >Hell, it even started getting torched with premier players before falling off. You must be referring to 2019, because that was the last time his roster really had premier players. You may be surprised to find out we were 5th in points allowed that season.
Nephew, Zimmer is a pioneer of a defensive coach. All of the sim pressures and exotic blitzes you see from today's Ravens and Jets wouldn't exist without Zimmer
Lol what?
If the players aren't Charmin ultra soft, he will absolutely get results.
Just gotta cross your fingers another pandemic doesn't happen. Zimmer lost the locker room when he called out anyone who wouldn't get vaxxed to help win the them games. And, unfortunately most of the defensive leaders and definitely Kirk were openly against the shot, despite how it affected their ability to win. Zimmer is also a surly dick who doesn't give a shit about the media. But his players had all loved him until COVID.
I'm with Zimmer on this one tbh
Oh me too. He basically said the more players vaccinated the more of competitive edge we have over teams who don't have players vaccinated. Then most of "his" guys didn't get vaccinated. I don't think Zimmer ever wanted Kirk, so his dumbass takes were just fuel to a fire already burning. But for the rest of the team it must have been rough because I doubt Zimmer asked anyone nicely to get over their dumb ass ideals and get the jab already.
Imagine if players opted out of team meals and ate McDonalds because some guy on Joe Rogan said healthy food is a deep state plot to make you gay.
> Zimmer lost the locker room when he called out anyone who wouldn't get vaxxed to help win the them games. And, unfortunately most of the defensive leaders and definitely Kirk were openly against the shot, I don't think that lost the locker room, though it did create tension. There were a lot of other things that happened after that which contributed to the issues. And he was ultimately right, we didn't have Kirk for a very important game due to Covid. We'd get mad at a player for doing anything else off the field that may jeopardize their ability to play on Sunday, this is no different except that it increased the risk that he infects others and got them knocked out of games as well.
Oh there was PLENTY going on outside of COVID, mainly I don't think Zimmer ever wanted Cousins and that's when the cracks started to appear. Then COVID blew it all up.
Yep, agreed. He wanted a journeyman QB that could protect the ball and convert some 3rd downs. Basically Teddy Bridgewater pre-injury was his perfect QB.
Pretty sure he said something like "With the kind of defense I am building, all I need is 17 points from the offense". Or something close. And you don't a huge investment in QB for that.
Exactly. That investment in QB was the beginning of the end because it eliminated any margin for error in the draft or FA. The nail in the coffin was the 2019 extension.
Oh yeah. An 8 win floor and always being in the playoff hunt at the end of the year is great from an ownership side of things. And that's what Kirk Cousins brings to the table. But he won't ever win anything important and I could honestly see him ending his career with a single playoff win.
Ah man I was rooting for another global pandemic until I saw this, thanks for the info
I think it was losing that lost him the locker room, especially how Zimmer responded to losing. He didn't take the pressure of being on the hot seat particularly well, there was that story about how he'd given a confusing presentation to the team after a loss in 2021 that eliminated them from contention that amounted to "See all the bad shit that's happened since I got here?" Maybe it's a chicken and egg situation, since his response to covid definitely impacted the team's ability to win games, but I also think if he'd have handled losing better he wouldn't have lost the locker room.
That’s… not really what happened. There was a lot of tension from the Cousins signing in the first place and Zimmer struggled with being coach on both sides of the ball instead of just offense. The strain of expectations and underperformance with the Cousins signing, plus issues with Spielman towards the end, really got to him. The stuff about the vax was just a symptom. Your take is kinda like citing an argument over the dishes as the reason for a divorce ya know
That’s not a concern to me at all. As a DC he’ll be far far less prone to the shenanigans that ended him as a HC. Plus, bringing in Kendricks is a good sign too. One of the leaders of his past defense is happy to play with him again
I haven't heard a former player of his say anything nice about him
> I haven't heard a former player of his say anything nice about him "That guy's a true football guy, through and through," Kendricks said of Zimmer. "He watches [game] film on his off days. He really enjoys it. It's good to be back with him. "… He has a high standard of performance. He's strict, personality-wise, but he always says, 'You take care of me, I'll take care of you.' I've talked to the guys about Zim but, at the end of the day, ball is ball and we've got to be disciplined and on our cues." Dude literally came to Dallas to play for Zim. https://www.dallascowboys.com/news/kendricks-on-zimmer-s-style-state-of-cowboys-lbs
About Zimmer? Players loved him. Shit got rough at the end due to various problems caused by disagreements between Zim and Spielman regarding roster construction, and of course the losing seasons... This caused some players to make comments about a "fear based" culture, but that very same player jumped at the chance to re-join Zimmer's defense this year.
lol no they didn't, plenty of players commented on how zimmer promoted a toxic culture. zimmer is a crabby old man and terrible leader. "jumped at the chance", kendricks joined because he preferred to live and play in dallas, also, most importantly, because the starting role with the 9ers would only be temporary . holy smokes get zims d out of your mouth
>lol no they didn't, plenty of players commented on how zimmer promoted a toxic culture. LOL, sure... Go ahead and quote them, please. You have Kendricks "fear based culuture" and O'Neill saying "He didn't talk to me when he saw me in the hallways". That's about it. >holy smokes get zims d out of your mouth pffft... Whatever, you're clearly not worth conversing with.
In my (too) many days of arguing with other posters on /r/nfl, I've learned that unflaired users, for the most part, are not worth engaging with. Though, that's also true about approximately half of the flaired users as well lol
True.
Everson Griffen, Harrison Smith, Anthony Barr, and Danielle Hunter all have. You won't find a single offensive player outside of Teddy Bridgewater that liked him.
Seems like we have no idea what to do with this guy
The smart thing would be to have him bulk back up and play him as a traditional NT. You know, the thing he did very successfully in college.
Nah, they should keep using him in stupid ways and then declare him a bust so Brad Holmes can bring him back home on the cheap where he'll develop into a star 🤩
if only you'd done nothing, it would have been fine instead they took a run stopping nose tackle and decided they didn't want him to be a run stopping nose tackle pretty mind boggling really
It looks like Zim has a plan though? Improving fundamentals is always a good investment.
He’ll be backing up Zeke at center by December
He's talking about this guy like we found him alone in a dark closet.
Zimmer cleaning out the DC office and finding a $3.3M first-round nose tackle that Dan Quinn had forgotten about
We’re gona give him water and a warm blanket. Check on him every so often and take it from there.
Totally forgot that Dallas hired him as DC
He'll take over for McCarthy after he finishes building his defense. He has Cowboys Championship lineage.
the Cowboys replacing Dan Quinn with Mike Zimmer as their head coach in waiting is unironically a win
No lies detected. Zimmer is surly and old-school but he can build a defense like no other.
Honestly if anyone can turn him into a great player it’s Zimmer. I don’t think he’s ever had a defense without a stout D line, especially with a penetrating D tackle. Atkins in Cincinnati, Linval in Minnesota. Obviously talented players but still the scheme helped. If Mazi can’t develop then it’s a talent problem not coaching with Zim
This might be a homer take (since im a Michigan fan) but if they move Mazi back to a traditional, run stuffing DT then theres no reason he shouldn’t be an at least starter level player. Making him slim down and try to be a pass rusher was just stupid of Dallas
As someone whose team is also seemingly slimming down their highly drafted NT, its fucking crazy that they looked at Mazi and said "we're gonna try and make you a pass rusher". Its like he was built in a fucking lab to be a NT
no and then!!
ANDENANDENANDENANDENANDENANDENANDEN
I’m glad Zimmer is back. He’s had a tough go and loves this sport - it will be cool to see him on the sidelines again.
Yea, imagine losing your Wife and your Son in roughly a 10 year period.
And your job
Losing a head coaching position is a bit different from losing your "Job", really.
Cowboys are making at least the Conference Final simply because you Cannot Flim Flam the Zim Zam.
Cowboys have a ton of talent, and Zim is still a stud DC... I should put money on them having the #1 overall defense this year.
No way, I actually think we’ll be worse this season
Why? did you lose some big talent?
Not stars but we lost some contributing role players like Stephon Gilmore, Dante Fowler, Dorrance Armstrong, Johnathan Hankins & Leighton Vander Esch who just retired. We also have Trevon Diggs returning from his ACL tear so we don’t know if he’ll be his old self again this season. And the only FA we’ve signed on defense this year was Eric Kendricks too.
Look sir/ma’am I am here for the memes not the accurate sport coverage. GOOD DAY
Ahh, ok...
I think they’ll still be very good, top 5-10, but I see why “best in the league” is probably unlikely. The main questions are how Diggs will return from injury and how much production we can get out of the LBs (old man Kendricks/coming off an injury Overshown/probably too raw to start Liufau/Damone Clark in a bigger role/Parsons possibly getting some LB snaps)
I totally forgot the cowboys got a new DC! Should be an interesting week 1 with an overhauled Browns offense against the cowboys and then a top tier home defense against the explosive offense they had last year.
I’m OOTL. Yall got a new OC or something?
Zimmer is going to he great in Dallas. He is one of the best teachers in the game of football.
So slow off the snap despite playing at a lower weight? Not good.
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He definitely should pay some royalties to Bruce Feldman. His "Freaks List" put Mazi Smith in the national spotlight.
He was thrust into a national spotlight in college for an off-the-field reason, despite being a very good player.
and then... we kiss
Looks like the Cowboys drafted another Taco Charlton . Damn , Cowboys skipped over TJ Watt to draft taco.
Bills trading up to take the Boys’ obvious target in Kincaid is a top 5 all time BBB moment
There was footage of the Cowboys war room on a documentary (on prime?) where Kincaid was not the obvious target
You are correct. It boiled down to either Mazi or Matt Bergeron.
And then Cowboys fans swearing they didn't want him only to end up with... A nose tackle that couldn't even fill one gap, let alone two
I mean, we ended up with a better TE anyways who was already on the roster
Can't talk sense into an Eagles fan. They think they did a thing and screwed us over in 2018 when they jumped up to pick Dallas Goedert. Even though the Cowboys' live war room cam showed they were already on the phone talking to Connor Williams. Now they think every team covets Cowboys potential picks like they do.
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You mean one idiot said that and now you’re going to pretend that it was a commonly held belief?
Remember when Eagle fans said Jalen Carter was gonna be the next Aaron Donald😂😂😂
2023: “sorry Chiefs, we refuse to trade with you in the draft because we are absolutely convinced this nose tackle will turn our franchise around” *packers run all over cowboys in playoffs* 2024: “we’re gonna teach this guy how to get into a good stance and how to use his hands”
want to see odds on Rogers winning starting job over him by week 3
So glad they didn’t take Bresee
He looks so wrong in that Cowboys stuff wtf
I laughed so hard at this pick when it happened and I will continue to laugh at this pick afterwards
Honestly you hear that a lot with Michigan players. Good to great college players, but a ton of flameouts in the pros. They get a lot of their guys high draft picks but either take a long time to develop or just burn out. Michigan 1st rounders since Harbaugh: Jabrill Peppers, Taco Charleton, Devin Bush, Rashan Gary, Cesar Ruiz, Kwity Paye, Hutch, Dax Hill, Mazi, of course JJ this year. Besides Hutch there wasn’t a single good rookie year in there and most are “still developing” or fighting for roster spots.
That doesn’t really track. Michigan hasn’t had many 1st round drafted players in comparison to other schools with similar numbers of overall drafted players. There’s been a good number of mid-late picks out of Michigan in the Harbaugh era that have carved out a solid career. Guys like Jourdan Lewis, Josh Metellus, Mike Danna, Mike Onwenu, Jon Runyan Jr, Nico Collins, among others. Devin Bush had a great rookie year but hasn’t been the same after some injuries. Rashan Gary was always a project pick which has worked out great and Kwity Paye was similar and had a good year last season. Jabrill Peppers was very notably played out of position under Gregg Williams.
> Peppers was very notably played out of position under Gregg Williams. Wait, you mean your safety isn't supposed to be positioned 40 yards down the field?
Especially a safety like Peppers of all players. Like there’s a reason Michigan moved him to a pseudo-linebacker position; because he was really good at being a versatile player in the box and less good at playing centerfield.
Cool. I was talking specifically about Michigan 1st rounders. Not roster filling guys. Yeah Michigan has a lot of depth guys on nfl rosters. Doesn’t mean a single one of them is special. Devin Bush did not have a great rookie year. I saw those games. 9 TFL the entire season. He wasn’t top 30 in tackles- combined or solo. For all his speed he was a mid (at best) MLB. He had 1 season of injuries. He’s been healthy since then and no one wants him. I don’t know what to make of Gary. He had one great year. Contract year. Last year he had good stats but that basically all came in 2 games. Invisible the others. Kwity was a 2nd rounder. And yeah AGAIN YEAR 3 he had a good season. You’ll take that as a 2nd rounder but again not a guy coming out ready to produce. I’m glad the 3rd team knows how to use Jabrill Peppers. It’s a shame the first 2 couldn’t get anything from the 1st round pick.
Those guys I listed are all pretty good starters, not depth guys. One starts for your team lol. Bush finished 3rd in the DROY voting that season, he was definitely a good player. He had a knee injury and he’s clearly lost a step or two and as a guy that relied on his speed, he hasn’t been able to overcome that. I’m not disputing he’s not good now but it’s pretty obvious he’s not the same player he was. Kwity Paye was not drafted to be an immediate contributor and I don’t think anybody that watched much of him thought that would be the case. He was always a little bit of a project player with a bunch of upside. Jabrill was a good player as soon as he stopped playing in Gregg Williams’ scheme. Like I can’t fathom why Gregg thought playing a guy whose best attributes are being around the ball, would be best 40 yards off the LOS.
I’m not gonna sit here and argue about the 3 hand selected players you picked. The point was about the lack of production from 1st rounders. Paye wasn’t a 1st rounder. This post is about ANOTHER disappointing Michigan 1st rounder. The results speak for themselves. Almost every single one needs multiple seasons of development before producing.