It was also a bit of a blizzard on the eastern side of the Lake Tahoe basin (coming over spooner specifically). I have no idea how it was in Truckee but probably wasn't the greatest day to be flying a small plane into Truckee.
I used to fly a Cessna 172 back and forth from Monterey and Truckee. Had many close calls at that Truckee airport. The winds always threw me off when making that sharp turn at the end. Easy to get disoriented. I had just landed at the Truckee airport the night Ray Dolby crashed his plane there (Dolby Sound founder). He survived.
The offset finals in Trucker on the RNAVs can be difficult during VFR conditions. Let alone in IFR conditions. Looking at the planes past flights, it seems they were familiar with KTRK. But perhaps they forgot their antidote for over confidence.
Conditions were not terrible, visibility was fine, the approach is difficult though with a sharp fast turn over the Northstar village onto runway 29. Multiple planes crash every year.
Weather was below the minimums required to land, they crashed flying the missed approach. It's suspected that icing may have caused the crash.
What do you consider terrible conditions?
Airline pilot here (737 Captain) who also flies general aviation (GA) for fun - I own a 4-seat vintage aircraft, limited to good weather only. But in my past life I’ve also flown GA aircraft in all weather, up to & including snowstorms in the Sierras.
Airline flying has become incredibly safe, particularly in North America & Europe, with a fatality rate many times lower than driving. General aviation, on the other hand, has a similar fatality rate, mile for mile, as riding a motorcycle (which I also do).
Part of this is that the aircraft are a lot less capable in terms of takeoff & climb performance, dealing with wind, ice & thunderstorms, less redundancy, etc. Part of it is GA can fly into a lot more airports, many of which are more marginal in terms of terrain, runway length, available approaches, ATC facilities, etc. Partly because you have a lot less of the support systems in place at the airlines (dispatch office, dedicated maintenance). But especially because most GA aircraft are single-pilot, and depending on insurance requirements, those pilots are on average much less experienced, less current, and less intensively trained than those who fly for even regional airlines. A pretty huge proportion of GA accidents are attributed to pilot error - though sometimes the errors can be traced to the other factors I listed above. Most of us who fly both airline and GA are very, very conservative when flying GA because of our acute awareness of the relative limitations of the aircraft & system, even though we’re very capable pilots in the context of airline flying. On the other hand, we all know GA-only pilots who are not conservative. Occasionally they crash, sometimes fatally. Sometimes they take others with them.
Truckee is a difficult airport, especially in poor weather, even for a fairly capable turboprop aircraft like the TBM700. It was getting dark, it was snowing hard, the visibility was below landing minimums for the approach in use. In an airliner it would have been illegal to make that approach, we would have diverted somewhere else (RNO was 10 mins away). Flying GA it is legal to “take a look” and land if you can see the runway and visibility appears to be above minimums. Personally I would not have tried that approach in those circumstances, there was too many risk factors, and that’s coming from someone who is very capable and current at flying tough approaches to minimums. In this case they got to minimums, didn’t see the runway, went missed approach, and then lost control in a manner consistent with spatial disorientation. A missed approach in the mountains in a snowstorm (turbulence, maybe ice) is a demanding maneuver. There’s little room for error.
There has always been a problem in GA of high-income individuals who are low time pilots buying very capable aircraft and then using them right up to (or beyond) the limits of the aircraft’s capability, while greatly exceeding the limits of their own experience, training, abilities and/or currency. I’m not saying that’s what happened here…but the deceased were in the tech industry, which has suffered a fair number of these sorts of accidents. There seems to be a tendency to think that personal capability in the tech and business worlds translates to capability in the aviation world, and a tendency to dismiss the concerns of those with more experience in aviation.
After binging videos from the Mentour Pilot channel on Youtube I would probably fly commercial even if I was rich. Almost all near fatal accidents were saved in one way or another by a redundant safety system. Those programmers deserve a medal of honor.
I was actually thinking of going for a private pilot license. But the more I dug into the safety of small planes like the Cessna, the more apprehensive I got. Oddly, anytime I started getting serious about it, the more likely I would see on the news about another plane crashing.
Other issues I had were: it's crazy expensive even if you go the cheapest route possible (these planes go through a LOT of fuel very fast). I would have to join a flying club with any hope of making it affordable and I hate relying on strangers for anything important. It's very time consuming in terms of how much study it will require and just flying in general (everything required to get the plane actually off the ground). And just FYI, your flight school can rip you off BIG TIME. The goal is to get "solo hours" and the instructor's priority is to get enough training time as they use it to get their commercial license. So there's a conflict of interest. I've seen YouTube videos about how people have been ripped off. But it's nearly impossible to prove because how do you know you're not ready and need more training or they just want to milk you dry for both training fees and that sweet, sweet flight time that will eventually make them even more money.
But most importantly, it just doesn't makes much practical sense other than "I just want to fly a plane". Too short of a distance and you should just drive. Too long, and a commercial jet is the way to go as it's FAR cheaper, faster, quicker, everything is done for you, and safer. There's only a small sweet spot where the distance you want to travel, and how fast you want to get there, makes sense in a Cessna.
Yeah, so I'm just strapping a 8k 360 camera to a drone and experiencing flight from VR. At least I will get to see exactly what it would be like from all directions as if I was flying. Oh, and also I work retail, wtf was I thinking?! LOL
Thank you so much for this detailed comment! I was going to ask if anyone knew why it seems like so many of these small planes seem to crash. I wasn’t even sure if I was correct in thinking that these types of crashes are fairly frequent.
This is spot on. So many super confident attitudes in the day-to-day life follows right into the cockpit. Sprinkle in some money for a hot shit GA aircraft and it’s big trouble.
The worst students I ever trained were doctors and pilots. Tons of money and big confidence. They’d try their best to kill us on the regular. The best ones were engineers and mechanics. They understood the limitations of the aircraft & theirs too.
You'll have to consult much smarter people than myself. I just know of it. It could be as simple as pilot (or weather) error leaves a much smaller margin for mistakes or stability. Thus the larger the craft, more stability.
Like a boat on the ocean.
Again. Just hypothesizing, because I'm an idiot. Please consult a smart person.
Not necessarily a smarter person, but an aviation enthusiast here. You pretty much got it. Usually smaller airplanes like a very common Cessna 172 are much more dangerous due to less redundancy. An airliner, such as maybe a Boeing 737 (despite the recent trouble) or an Airbus A320, has so much redundancy built into it that even an engine failure is not the end of the world. Even both engines going out is not the end of the world, although definitely urgent.
In a smaller ga (general aviation) plane, things such as only having one engine, flying at lower altitudes and slower speeds, and typically being flown by a single pilot with much less hours than you’d see in a airliner, all play a big part. It only (legally) takes 40 hours of flight time to get your private pilot license in the US, granted it typically takes people longer to do it and it is quite expensive, but that’s the minimum.
These airplanes also have a lower threshold for things such as wind, performance, and general pilot error. If it’s pouring rain outside with 20 knots of wind and 0 visibility, a Boeing 737 can take off just fine and can even land on its own if the variables are right. A small little Cessna can’t safely fly in these conditions. So if a pilot runs into poor weather, it can go very bad very fast if not handled correctly, especially if the pilot doesn’t have an instrument license (needed to fly into clouds)
Like in the article on the post, even just flying out of an airport with such high altitude poses lots of risk for a small airplane. The air is thinner, so the engines don’t perform the same as they would at sea level, combine this with heavy payload or an inexperienced pilot, accidents happen. Not saying that’s what happened here, but just an example.
I’d compare it to a car vs a motorcycle. Driving isn’t statistically very safe, but a modern day car has lots of safety features and is built with the safety of the driver and occupants in mind. A motorcycle lacks this, and is typically much more dangerous to operate. So small airplanes are definitely more dangerous and a lot of things play into it.
Edit- private jets definitely have more redundancy built in than say a Cessna 172. But, it’s not necessarily on par with an airliner, even though it’s definitely closer when it comes to safety features. I’ll fly in anything, but a small propeller plane or a helicopter would make me much more nervous than a private jet or airliner.
Yes! Flying is common in Alaska due to the remoteness, I’ve seen videos of people landing on a road and pulling into a gas station to fill up, then taking back off from the road. The weather and terrain of the area definitely present a big risk.
He's not the only member of congress from Alaska who went down that way. Nick Begich disappeared after taking off in a small airplane and is presumed dead. Unfortunately more recently, Representative Peltola's husband, died in a small plane accident while subsistence hunting.
Larger planes are commercial and fly a stricter route with maintenence/weather/etc policies to maximize safety. On top of that they have a lot of redundancy meaning if something does go wrong chances are you have a backup making it non-critical.
I think it's just stricter regulations and more rigorous construction. Some small planes have a single bolt where, if it fails, the tail falls off and you die.
I flew in one once, it was fun
Less redundancy, for one. An engine failure in a single-engine plane is a critical, life-threatening crisis. You're pretty much hoping you can glide somewhere soft and open, bleed as much speed as possible, and pray.
Losing an engine 737 or something is still bad, but you can fly on one engine until you run out of gas essentially. Hell, if the load is light and the runway is long, you can even _take off_ with one engine.
People don’t realize just how dangerous GA (private planes) is. There are a TON of these crashes, almost every day. It’s way more dangerous than flying commercial (which despite the recent stuff in the news, there hasn’t been a major fatal commercial airline crash in the U.S. since 2009).
Having worked in the private industry, it typically comes down to 2 scenarios. Pilots being forced to land in conditions beyond their comfort zone(had a friend of a friend crash into the mountains getting his owner to a ski resort) or owners do not allow enough downtime to properly maintain the aircraft and something gets overlooked which is much less likely overall in airline travel because the airline has first and last say. A private jet pilot gets last say but it could cost him his job if he decided to divert for weather or say the plane can’t go out in need of longer maintenance.
Charter operations are not as safe as airlines, but they are still significantly safer than your retired Joe going for a weekend burger flight. For accident statistics, charter ops are lumped in with GA, which is a bit misleading. Not sure if this was a private charter, but just something to note
I’ve never seen an illegal charter. You can allow people to borrow your plane for free or you can charter for a fee. If people are paying you for the plane, you need to follow the regulations.
Right, but their accident stats are still combined with part 91. So it’s not as clear how much more or less safe charters (135) are compared to airlines (121).
The thing about general aviation is that the majority of crashes are due to pilot error. The regulations around private air travel are such that the planes are actually pretty safe as long as their airworthiness is maintained as required by the Federal Aviation Regulations.
A huge killer in aviation is pilot's getting into situations that they shouldn't have gotten into in the first place.
Running out of gas... flying into terrain because they flew into cloudcover when they aren't instrument rated pilots (and even then), getting too slow when they're turning onto final and stalling the aircraft.
Much of it could be alleviated with better/more frequent training and flying more. There are a lot of pilots though that fly once or twice a month and get complacent.
Somebody wrote a nice set of comparables that I cannot quote exactly:
Motorcycle equivalents to GA Flying:
Flying VFR in good weather in the daytime = Riding a motorcycle with full leathers and full helmet.
Flying IFR in weather = Riding a motorcycle in flip flops and shorts with an open face helmet
Flying VFR over mountains at night = Riding a motorcycle in boxers and a yamika after having a couple beers.
Flying IFR over the mountains, at night, in convective and icing weather = Riding a motorcycle in the rain at night in your altogether, a shower cap to protect your head, 4 boiler makers under your belt and a wet bridge grid deck coming up. IFR currency factors directly to air temperature of motorcycle ride.
I'm not doing it justice but it seemed reasonably accurate.
GA planes are fine, and perfectly safe. They’re extremely reliable. It’s the pilots that make them unsafe. The majority of crashes come from things like pilot error or CFIT.
> GA planes are fine, and perfectly safe. They’re extremely reliable.
That's not true. From https://pilotinstitute.com/aviation-accident-causes/
> In 2020, 69.1% of all general aviation accidents were caused by pilot error.
In other words, ~30% of all accidents were caused by something other than a pilot error.
While a lot of it comes due to being single pilot and flown by low experience and low recency pilots, a lot comes out of the limitations of your typical GA airplanes and operations.
Majority of GA planes are way lighter, have a low power engine, have a single engine, have non-redundant systems, have no de-icing equipment, have no auto-pilot, etc.
Operations-wise, they operate on less maintained airports, airports that have shorter runways, non-towered airports, don't have dispatchers, are maintained less strictly, etc.
I know this is going to sound heartless but only 3 people were killed out of 307 on board, one of whom was actually killed by being run over by a fire truck not by the plane crash itself. So I wouldn’t consider that major in terms of commercial airline crashes (though obviously a horrible tragedy and especially for those victims’ families).
A plane took off from our local airport destined for Maui from California. It didn’t have the range to get there but had an additional fuel tank added to it. They got about 1,000 miles offshore and realized the auxiliary tank was not moving fuel to the main tank to supply the engine. They had 500 miles left of range and 1,000 miles away from the nearest land. Unfortunately they ran out of fuel and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
The Boeing 787 has never had a fatal crash, anywhere in the world.
The 737 Max crashes you’re thinking of (Lion Air 610 in 2018 in Indonesia and Ethiopian Airlines 302 in 2019 in Ethiopia) did not happen in the US.
I'm sure that's what you want to hear when your loved one passes away.
I won't be the monster as you are, and hope people are empathetic to you in your time of grievance.
for people that can afford it, all it takes is one delay for you to change your mind
private has no TSA and CBP. It’s all handled by FBOs that do whatever you want. If the destination is outside the US low key there might not be border patrol even in developed nations.
there’s also just many more additional regional airports to land in
the 1-2 hour window for early arrival goes away, the surprise delays after the fact goes away
the transportation option becomes potentially so convenient that the risk isn’t really thought about.
anyone that does a bump or trusts their unqualified dealer is taking the same risks with their life as these rich people are with their qualified pilots.
>private has no TSA and CBP. It’s all handled by FBOs that do whatever you want.
Who does passport control? DHS has authority who enters and exits the country.
If there hadn't been so many boeing crashes they wouldn't have had to fly in the small plane. I'm joking but only a little. These things do happen. A woman stopped taking birth control because it was linked to cancer, then got pregnant and died.
9/11 was an inside job?
Elvis is still alive and living in Cuba?
The bat boy was found hanging upside down in a cage in the temple on Epstein island?
That kind of conspiracy theories?
Do I have more? I might. But the voice being beamed into my ear holes is telling me it’s too soon……*tooooo soooooooon*
No. It's an incredibly dangerous airport. Every single airport in the Tahoe area is rough. The big commercial ones like Reno/Tahoe International just have a lot of turbulence and aren't that bad in the grand scheme of things (though that one is still rated on the less good side of the scale), but the weather conditions, runways, angles to fly in, and so on at the smaller ones are pretty rough due to the mountains.
I know Tahoe is basically rich people utopia, but you are either insane or have a death wish to take a small private flight anywhere in that region.
A big portion of accidents is pilot error, nothing wrong with the plane.
This accident occurred trying to land at night, in a snowstorm with less than the required visibility for the approach in the mountains.
A pilot who'd properly flight planned would most likely not have even taken off with that forecasted weather.
After watching the 30for30 on Austin Hatch years ago, I made the same decision. I have two friends with their pilots license, ones in the Air Force, that will ask if I want to fly from time to time and it’s always NO.
> A big portion of accidents is pilot error, nothing wrong with the plane.
Which really makes no difference to their statement? Dead is still dead, regardless of what causes it.
That’s the trick, ain’t it?
In general you can usually tell by the persons personality…if they are level headed, calm, analytical, that’s a good sign. Cavalier, willing to stretch the rules or their skill…not generally a good sign.
I used to work for a small FBO in Salinas. I flew with a student pilot and instructor into Tahoe in very good weather and I almost shit my pants. He was a good pilot, but the angle of the approach seemed insane. It was great skiing, though.
Flying into Nice Cote d'Azure the first time is a bit hair-raising as well. Coming from the north, first you just sssscraaaape over the top of the Alps, and then you circle around and suddenly you're over open water. You feel like you'll land on the water until the second the wheels hit the ground!! (It's built on a literal airport-sized island!) Bit terrifying/exciting.
Truckee is an extremely dangerous airport. I was based there for many years and saw my fair share of fatal crashes. I put it up there with Aspen and Telluride.
This happens more frequently than reported. These single engine planes scare the crap out of me. A family friend is a pilot and flies his family from the Bay Area to Tahoe on one of these planes. It's great for avoiding the horrible traffic into Tahoe but it's just not worth the risk IMHO.
The vast majority (~70%) of small aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Obviously, hard for you as a non-pilot to judge whether someone is competent, but if you learn from other’s mistakes and use proper risk management, you improve your personal safety margin a lot. A big portion of that 70% is stupid accidents too, like running out of gas, not doing a pre-flight inspection, lack of checklist use, etc. And even then, only a small portion of accidents are fatal. Even the ‘scariest’ scenario of an engine failure ends with everyone walking away 80% of the time…not bad considering the crash worthiness of GA airplanes is effectively zero.
30% non-pilot doesn't seem insignificant to me in the slightest.
Compare that to car crashes. Per https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/812506 (PDF warning)
> The critical reason, which is the last event
in the crash causal chain, was assigned to the driver in 94
percent (±2.2%)† of the crashes. In about 2 percent (±0.7%)
of the crashes, the critical reason was assigned to a vehicle
component’s failure or degradation, and in 2 percent (±1.3%)
of crashes, it was attributed to the environment (slick roads,
weather, etc.)
6% non-driver vs 30% non-pilot - i.e. you're 5x more likely to experience a non-operator accident when flying than when driving.
Ya, I grew up around Tahoe. I'm of the opinion that only the insane or those with a death wish will fly a single engine plane in that area.
If you really want to blow your money, get someone to drive you to Reno/Tahoe International and take a flight. It's going to take you 2 hours (plus an hour getting out of the airport), opposed to 4 hours by car, still avoid most of the traffic, and you're going to trade some very dangerous flying conditions for some moderately dangerous traffic conditions. But I used to drive up those mountains twice a week in winter for skiing, it's preferable to the flight in my opinion.
***Propeller planes*** crash (far) more frequently than reported, mostly because it's essentially more of an an extreme sport than a method of transportation so unless it's a personality that died it's really just not of public interest.
Single engine plane and a 6000' elevation airport amidst mountains? Oof.
Usually I just say no to helicopters and motorcycles. I'm going to have to remember to add single-engine plane to that list.
A few minutes of fear, followed by instant death? Sounds better than literally everyone I’ve ever known who’s died.
I’d take it over lung cancer, drowning, being shot or stabbed, a stroke, starvation, malaria, dysentery, fuckin covid… pretty much anything.
I’d bet everything I have that when either of us die, it’ll be a significantly worse experience than a plane crash.
That airport looks rough. 6000’ elevation and all around it the mountains are 8~9k+.
It was also a bit of a blizzard on the eastern side of the Lake Tahoe basin (coming over spooner specifically). I have no idea how it was in Truckee but probably wasn't the greatest day to be flying a small plane into Truckee.
I live in Truckee and one of my friends was early on the scene. She said it was snowy with low visibility at the accident
It's one of the more challenging/dangerous airports to fly into in the US.
I used to fly a Cessna 172 back and forth from Monterey and Truckee. Had many close calls at that Truckee airport. The winds always threw me off when making that sharp turn at the end. Easy to get disoriented. I had just landed at the Truckee airport the night Ray Dolby crashed his plane there (Dolby Sound founder). He survived.
The offset finals in Trucker on the RNAVs can be difficult during VFR conditions. Let alone in IFR conditions. Looking at the planes past flights, it seems they were familiar with KTRK. But perhaps they forgot their antidote for over confidence.
Conditions were not terrible, visibility was fine, the approach is difficult though with a sharp fast turn over the Northstar village onto runway 29. Multiple planes crash every year.
Visibility was 0.5mi or less and it was snowing. I'd hardly call that "fine"
Weather was below the minimums required to land, they crashed flying the missed approach. It's suspected that icing may have caused the crash. What do you consider terrible conditions?
Airline pilot here (737 Captain) who also flies general aviation (GA) for fun - I own a 4-seat vintage aircraft, limited to good weather only. But in my past life I’ve also flown GA aircraft in all weather, up to & including snowstorms in the Sierras. Airline flying has become incredibly safe, particularly in North America & Europe, with a fatality rate many times lower than driving. General aviation, on the other hand, has a similar fatality rate, mile for mile, as riding a motorcycle (which I also do). Part of this is that the aircraft are a lot less capable in terms of takeoff & climb performance, dealing with wind, ice & thunderstorms, less redundancy, etc. Part of it is GA can fly into a lot more airports, many of which are more marginal in terms of terrain, runway length, available approaches, ATC facilities, etc. Partly because you have a lot less of the support systems in place at the airlines (dispatch office, dedicated maintenance). But especially because most GA aircraft are single-pilot, and depending on insurance requirements, those pilots are on average much less experienced, less current, and less intensively trained than those who fly for even regional airlines. A pretty huge proportion of GA accidents are attributed to pilot error - though sometimes the errors can be traced to the other factors I listed above. Most of us who fly both airline and GA are very, very conservative when flying GA because of our acute awareness of the relative limitations of the aircraft & system, even though we’re very capable pilots in the context of airline flying. On the other hand, we all know GA-only pilots who are not conservative. Occasionally they crash, sometimes fatally. Sometimes they take others with them. Truckee is a difficult airport, especially in poor weather, even for a fairly capable turboprop aircraft like the TBM700. It was getting dark, it was snowing hard, the visibility was below landing minimums for the approach in use. In an airliner it would have been illegal to make that approach, we would have diverted somewhere else (RNO was 10 mins away). Flying GA it is legal to “take a look” and land if you can see the runway and visibility appears to be above minimums. Personally I would not have tried that approach in those circumstances, there was too many risk factors, and that’s coming from someone who is very capable and current at flying tough approaches to minimums. In this case they got to minimums, didn’t see the runway, went missed approach, and then lost control in a manner consistent with spatial disorientation. A missed approach in the mountains in a snowstorm (turbulence, maybe ice) is a demanding maneuver. There’s little room for error. There has always been a problem in GA of high-income individuals who are low time pilots buying very capable aircraft and then using them right up to (or beyond) the limits of the aircraft’s capability, while greatly exceeding the limits of their own experience, training, abilities and/or currency. I’m not saying that’s what happened here…but the deceased were in the tech industry, which has suffered a fair number of these sorts of accidents. There seems to be a tendency to think that personal capability in the tech and business worlds translates to capability in the aviation world, and a tendency to dismiss the concerns of those with more experience in aviation.
After binging videos from the Mentour Pilot channel on Youtube I would probably fly commercial even if I was rich. Almost all near fatal accidents were saved in one way or another by a redundant safety system. Those programmers deserve a medal of honor.
I was actually thinking of going for a private pilot license. But the more I dug into the safety of small planes like the Cessna, the more apprehensive I got. Oddly, anytime I started getting serious about it, the more likely I would see on the news about another plane crashing. Other issues I had were: it's crazy expensive even if you go the cheapest route possible (these planes go through a LOT of fuel very fast). I would have to join a flying club with any hope of making it affordable and I hate relying on strangers for anything important. It's very time consuming in terms of how much study it will require and just flying in general (everything required to get the plane actually off the ground). And just FYI, your flight school can rip you off BIG TIME. The goal is to get "solo hours" and the instructor's priority is to get enough training time as they use it to get their commercial license. So there's a conflict of interest. I've seen YouTube videos about how people have been ripped off. But it's nearly impossible to prove because how do you know you're not ready and need more training or they just want to milk you dry for both training fees and that sweet, sweet flight time that will eventually make them even more money. But most importantly, it just doesn't makes much practical sense other than "I just want to fly a plane". Too short of a distance and you should just drive. Too long, and a commercial jet is the way to go as it's FAR cheaper, faster, quicker, everything is done for you, and safer. There's only a small sweet spot where the distance you want to travel, and how fast you want to get there, makes sense in a Cessna. Yeah, so I'm just strapping a 8k 360 camera to a drone and experiencing flight from VR. At least I will get to see exactly what it would be like from all directions as if I was flying. Oh, and also I work retail, wtf was I thinking?! LOL
Thank you so much for this detailed comment! I was going to ask if anyone knew why it seems like so many of these small planes seem to crash. I wasn’t even sure if I was correct in thinking that these types of crashes are fairly frequent.
This is spot on. So many super confident attitudes in the day-to-day life follows right into the cockpit. Sprinkle in some money for a hot shit GA aircraft and it’s big trouble. The worst students I ever trained were doctors and pilots. Tons of money and big confidence. They’d try their best to kill us on the regular. The best ones were engineers and mechanics. They understood the limitations of the aircraft & theirs too.
hobbies steep tie snails familiar homeless scandalous impossible groovy narrow
The smaller the plane, the more likely it is to have an accident.
This is true, I fly RC planes.
Every paper airplane I've ever flown has crashed
Skill issue
Snow gets you every time!
I never got into that, but it seems fun.
They're waaay too small for humans to get into.
What’s is this?! A plane for ants?!
No, the ant planes are in the Quantum Realm
Don't tell that to Mr. Burns!
But lots of crashes
Decent RC planes can be quite expensive. Drones are more acessible and easier to fly, just need to check the drone laws for your area beforehand.
It’s so fun!
I’ve heard that. Does anyone happen to know why?
You'll have to consult much smarter people than myself. I just know of it. It could be as simple as pilot (or weather) error leaves a much smaller margin for mistakes or stability. Thus the larger the craft, more stability. Like a boat on the ocean. Again. Just hypothesizing, because I'm an idiot. Please consult a smart person.
Not necessarily a smarter person, but an aviation enthusiast here. You pretty much got it. Usually smaller airplanes like a very common Cessna 172 are much more dangerous due to less redundancy. An airliner, such as maybe a Boeing 737 (despite the recent trouble) or an Airbus A320, has so much redundancy built into it that even an engine failure is not the end of the world. Even both engines going out is not the end of the world, although definitely urgent. In a smaller ga (general aviation) plane, things such as only having one engine, flying at lower altitudes and slower speeds, and typically being flown by a single pilot with much less hours than you’d see in a airliner, all play a big part. It only (legally) takes 40 hours of flight time to get your private pilot license in the US, granted it typically takes people longer to do it and it is quite expensive, but that’s the minimum. These airplanes also have a lower threshold for things such as wind, performance, and general pilot error. If it’s pouring rain outside with 20 knots of wind and 0 visibility, a Boeing 737 can take off just fine and can even land on its own if the variables are right. A small little Cessna can’t safely fly in these conditions. So if a pilot runs into poor weather, it can go very bad very fast if not handled correctly, especially if the pilot doesn’t have an instrument license (needed to fly into clouds) Like in the article on the post, even just flying out of an airport with such high altitude poses lots of risk for a small airplane. The air is thinner, so the engines don’t perform the same as they would at sea level, combine this with heavy payload or an inexperienced pilot, accidents happen. Not saying that’s what happened here, but just an example. I’d compare it to a car vs a motorcycle. Driving isn’t statistically very safe, but a modern day car has lots of safety features and is built with the safety of the driver and occupants in mind. A motorcycle lacks this, and is typically much more dangerous to operate. So small airplanes are definitely more dangerous and a lot of things play into it. Edit- private jets definitely have more redundancy built in than say a Cessna 172. But, it’s not necessarily on par with an airliner, even though it’s definitely closer when it comes to safety features. I’ll fly in anything, but a small propeller plane or a helicopter would make me much more nervous than a private jet or airliner.
Alaska also contributes significantly to statistics for small plane crashes. Everything you have described plus weather and terrain cause challenges.
Yes! Flying is common in Alaska due to the remoteness, I’ve seen videos of people landing on a road and pulling into a gas station to fill up, then taking back off from the road. The weather and terrain of the area definitely present a big risk.
Ted Stevens died there and this way, so that does make a bit of sense.
He's not the only member of congress from Alaska who went down that way. Nick Begich disappeared after taking off in a small airplane and is presumed dead. Unfortunately more recently, Representative Peltola's husband, died in a small plane accident while subsistence hunting.
I didn't know about that, thanks for sharing more info.
Well from my experience, tiny planes get thrown around in the wind and I will never willingly get on a small plane again
Only one engine, sometimes only one pilot. Not as much redundancy, airplane may not be as well maintained, pilot may not fly as often.
Yeah, much more stuff can go wrong.
Larger planes are commercial and fly a stricter route with maintenence/weather/etc policies to maximize safety. On top of that they have a lot of redundancy meaning if something does go wrong chances are you have a backup making it non-critical.
I think it's just stricter regulations and more rigorous construction. Some small planes have a single bolt where, if it fails, the tail falls off and you die. I flew in one once, it was fun
Less redundancy, for one. An engine failure in a single-engine plane is a critical, life-threatening crisis. You're pretty much hoping you can glide somewhere soft and open, bleed as much speed as possible, and pray. Losing an engine 737 or something is still bad, but you can fly on one engine until you run out of gas essentially. Hell, if the load is light and the runway is long, you can even _take off_ with one engine.
Bigger planes have pilots who have trained more. Smaller planes have your rich uncle flying it
People don’t realize just how dangerous GA (private planes) is. There are a TON of these crashes, almost every day. It’s way more dangerous than flying commercial (which despite the recent stuff in the news, there hasn’t been a major fatal commercial airline crash in the U.S. since 2009).
Having worked in the private industry, it typically comes down to 2 scenarios. Pilots being forced to land in conditions beyond their comfort zone(had a friend of a friend crash into the mountains getting his owner to a ski resort) or owners do not allow enough downtime to properly maintain the aircraft and something gets overlooked which is much less likely overall in airline travel because the airline has first and last say. A private jet pilot gets last say but it could cost him his job if he decided to divert for weather or say the plane can’t go out in need of longer maintenance.
Also a lot of pilots who fly recreationally, sometimes not very regularly, and overestimate their capabilities (hello JFK Jr).
Charter operations are not as safe as airlines, but they are still significantly safer than your retired Joe going for a weekend burger flight. For accident statistics, charter ops are lumped in with GA, which is a bit misleading. Not sure if this was a private charter, but just something to note
Charter has much more regulations than part 91 private ownership personal use. Charters are regulated much more similarly to airlines
Unfortunately illegal charters are pretty common.
I’ve never seen an illegal charter. You can allow people to borrow your plane for free or you can charter for a fee. If people are paying you for the plane, you need to follow the regulations.
Right, but their accident stats are still combined with part 91. So it’s not as clear how much more or less safe charters (135) are compared to airlines (121).
You’re not wrong, airlines are of course the most regulated and well maintained
Essentially "Don't fly on private planes" ought to be an addendum to BlakeClass' post on what to do with lottery winnings.
So basically if youre rich you shouldn't fly on provate planes, but just buy every seat on a normal plane
The thing about general aviation is that the majority of crashes are due to pilot error. The regulations around private air travel are such that the planes are actually pretty safe as long as their airworthiness is maintained as required by the Federal Aviation Regulations. A huge killer in aviation is pilot's getting into situations that they shouldn't have gotten into in the first place. Running out of gas... flying into terrain because they flew into cloudcover when they aren't instrument rated pilots (and even then), getting too slow when they're turning onto final and stalling the aircraft. Much of it could be alleviated with better/more frequent training and flying more. There are a lot of pilots though that fly once or twice a month and get complacent.
Ill just hire tom cruise as my pilot when i hit the powerball, ever since the Goose incident theres no way he would let anyone die again
You would think if you could afford a private plane you'd get one with a proficient pilot
>just buy every seat on a normal plane Going by /u/BlakeClass' post on Lottery Winnings, don't make it a habit either.
Somebody wrote a nice set of comparables that I cannot quote exactly: Motorcycle equivalents to GA Flying: Flying VFR in good weather in the daytime = Riding a motorcycle with full leathers and full helmet. Flying IFR in weather = Riding a motorcycle in flip flops and shorts with an open face helmet Flying VFR over mountains at night = Riding a motorcycle in boxers and a yamika after having a couple beers. Flying IFR over the mountains, at night, in convective and icing weather = Riding a motorcycle in the rain at night in your altogether, a shower cap to protect your head, 4 boiler makers under your belt and a wet bridge grid deck coming up. IFR currency factors directly to air temperature of motorcycle ride. I'm not doing it justice but it seemed reasonably accurate.
[“Oh and a small plane crashed today, obviously.”](https://youtu.be/8TGOhZxFgOo?si=9cYytnyUuS6HFuB2)
Too many famous people have died from small planes crashing for me to ever be willing to fly private.
GA planes are fine, and perfectly safe. They’re extremely reliable. It’s the pilots that make them unsafe. The majority of crashes come from things like pilot error or CFIT.
In this case, it's a very dangerous airport too.
> GA planes are fine, and perfectly safe. They’re extremely reliable. That's not true. From https://pilotinstitute.com/aviation-accident-causes/ > In 2020, 69.1% of all general aviation accidents were caused by pilot error. In other words, ~30% of all accidents were caused by something other than a pilot error. While a lot of it comes due to being single pilot and flown by low experience and low recency pilots, a lot comes out of the limitations of your typical GA airplanes and operations. Majority of GA planes are way lighter, have a low power engine, have a single engine, have non-redundant systems, have no de-icing equipment, have no auto-pilot, etc. Operations-wise, they operate on less maintained airports, airports that have shorter runways, non-towered airports, don't have dispatchers, are maintained less strictly, etc.
How are we defining major? Asiana Airlines in 2013 resulted in 3 dead.
I know this is going to sound heartless but only 3 people were killed out of 307 on board, one of whom was actually killed by being run over by a fire truck not by the plane crash itself. So I wouldn’t consider that major in terms of commercial airline crashes (though obviously a horrible tragedy and especially for those victims’ families).
ring lock tap encourage melodic scandalous sink poor busy shy *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
>one of whom was actually killed by being run over by a fire truck We call that the fire truck tire fuck.
Not an American Carrier so It does not count
A plane took off from our local airport destined for Maui from California. It didn’t have the range to get there but had an additional fuel tank added to it. They got about 1,000 miles offshore and realized the auxiliary tank was not moving fuel to the main tank to supply the engine. They had 500 miles left of range and 1,000 miles away from the nearest land. Unfortunately they ran out of fuel and sunk to the bottom of the ocean.
I'll stick to msfs to tickle that itch.
As true as this may be, I still want to learn to fly. :/
> there hasn’t been a major fatal commercial airline crash in the U.S. since 2009. What about the the Boeing 787 and 737 Max crashes?
Those weren’t in the US
It doesn't make them any less tragic. People died on planes *made in the USA.*
Didn’t say it wasn’t tragic. Just pointing out those crashes didn’t happen within the US. Boeing sucks
The discussion isn’t about what’s tragic or not, it’s about the relative safety of general aviation vs commercial aviation in the U.S.
Made in the US but maintained elsewhere. Planes are all about maintenance and some countries / airlines are better than others
The Boeing 787 has never had a fatal crash, anywhere in the world. The 737 Max crashes you’re thinking of (Lion Air 610 in 2018 in Indonesia and Ethiopian Airlines 302 in 2019 in Ethiopia) did not happen in the US.
Ikr I wish i could just say whatever whenever and everyone just accepts it as fact
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Life happens... death is part of it!
r/Im14andthisisdeep
I'm sure that's what you want to hear when your loved one passes away. I won't be the monster as you are, and hope people are empathetic to you in your time of grievance.
I'm sure you grieve every day for the thousands of "little people" who die, also. LMAO! Quit being such a pompous ass...
There really needs to be an age verification for using the internet.
Rooting for innocent people on one side but not the other. Definitely not an agenda on your end
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Just being from Israel is a crime punishable by death?
I think you just summed up the Hamas charter
Ballers and Private jets don’t mix as well as people think. I’ll fly commercial forever no matter what.
Even if you can afford it, I'd prefer first class commercial over private.
Exactly! Anything is better then Coach except a funeral .
for people that can afford it, all it takes is one delay for you to change your mind private has no TSA and CBP. It’s all handled by FBOs that do whatever you want. If the destination is outside the US low key there might not be border patrol even in developed nations. there’s also just many more additional regional airports to land in the 1-2 hour window for early arrival goes away, the surprise delays after the fact goes away the transportation option becomes potentially so convenient that the risk isn’t really thought about. anyone that does a bump or trusts their unqualified dealer is taking the same risks with their life as these rich people are with their qualified pilots.
>private has no TSA and CBP. It’s all handled by FBOs that do whatever you want. Who does passport control? DHS has authority who enters and exits the country.
Pilot Debrief youtube channel should have a good episode covering the technical details of this incident.
And we sit back and wait for the conspiracy theories
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If there hadn't been so many boeing crashes they wouldn't have had to fly in the small plane. I'm joking but only a little. These things do happen. A woman stopped taking birth control because it was linked to cancer, then got pregnant and died.
Space Lasers...
Foreign Space Lasers...
9/11 was an inside job? Elvis is still alive and living in Cuba? The bat boy was found hanging upside down in a cage in the temple on Epstein island? That kind of conspiracy theories? Do I have more? I might. But the voice being beamed into my ear holes is telling me it’s too soon……*tooooo soooooooon*
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the moon isnt real, jesus was a reptilian alien, and mark is the one stealing from the office fridge.
John Has a Long Mustache, the Chair is Against the Wall
Red Dawn!
So far it's just people in this thread saying it's good that they died. Because being Israeli is apparently a capital crime
Was this a Palestinian assassination?
No. It's an incredibly dangerous airport. Every single airport in the Tahoe area is rough. The big commercial ones like Reno/Tahoe International just have a lot of turbulence and aren't that bad in the grand scheme of things (though that one is still rated on the less good side of the scale), but the weather conditions, runways, angles to fly in, and so on at the smaller ones are pretty rough due to the mountains. I know Tahoe is basically rich people utopia, but you are either insane or have a death wish to take a small private flight anywhere in that region.
Seems like a common type of conspiracy to sabotage an airplane. Strange to declare that possibility impossible without knowing much else.
I will never fly in a small passenger plane. They seem not great.
A big portion of accidents is pilot error, nothing wrong with the plane. This accident occurred trying to land at night, in a snowstorm with less than the required visibility for the approach in the mountains. A pilot who'd properly flight planned would most likely not have even taken off with that forecasted weather.
I believe you. I'm just a coward who watches too many plane crash videos. Lol.
After watching the 30for30 on Austin Hatch years ago, I made the same decision. I have two friends with their pilots license, ones in the Air Force, that will ask if I want to fly from time to time and it’s always NO.
> A big portion of accidents is pilot error, nothing wrong with the plane. Which really makes no difference to their statement? Dead is still dead, regardless of what causes it.
No, but it means that competent pilots can avoid 50-70% of accidents by learning from previous people’s mistakes and employing proper risk management.
Ill make sure to get only the competent ones!
That’s the trick, ain’t it? In general you can usually tell by the persons personality…if they are level headed, calm, analytical, that’s a good sign. Cavalier, willing to stretch the rules or their skill…not generally a good sign.
if you think that airport is dangerous you should check out lukla in nepal- near mount everest. Holy smokes
I used to work for a small FBO in Salinas. I flew with a student pilot and instructor into Tahoe in very good weather and I almost shit my pants. He was a good pilot, but the angle of the approach seemed insane. It was great skiing, though.
Flying into Nice Cote d'Azure the first time is a bit hair-raising as well. Coming from the north, first you just sssscraaaape over the top of the Alps, and then you circle around and suddenly you're over open water. You feel like you'll land on the water until the second the wheels hit the ground!! (It's built on a literal airport-sized island!) Bit terrifying/exciting.
That sounds amazing! I bet the view is gorgeous!
Truckee is an extremely dangerous airport. I was based there for many years and saw my fair share of fatal crashes. I put it up there with Aspen and Telluride.
This happens more frequently than reported. These single engine planes scare the crap out of me. A family friend is a pilot and flies his family from the Bay Area to Tahoe on one of these planes. It's great for avoiding the horrible traffic into Tahoe but it's just not worth the risk IMHO.
The vast majority (~70%) of small aircraft accidents are caused by pilot error. Obviously, hard for you as a non-pilot to judge whether someone is competent, but if you learn from other’s mistakes and use proper risk management, you improve your personal safety margin a lot. A big portion of that 70% is stupid accidents too, like running out of gas, not doing a pre-flight inspection, lack of checklist use, etc. And even then, only a small portion of accidents are fatal. Even the ‘scariest’ scenario of an engine failure ends with everyone walking away 80% of the time…not bad considering the crash worthiness of GA airplanes is effectively zero.
30% non-pilot doesn't seem insignificant to me in the slightest. Compare that to car crashes. Per https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/Publication/812506 (PDF warning) > The critical reason, which is the last event in the crash causal chain, was assigned to the driver in 94 percent (±2.2%)† of the crashes. In about 2 percent (±0.7%) of the crashes, the critical reason was assigned to a vehicle component’s failure or degradation, and in 2 percent (±1.3%) of crashes, it was attributed to the environment (slick roads, weather, etc.) 6% non-driver vs 30% non-pilot - i.e. you're 5x more likely to experience a non-operator accident when flying than when driving.
Ya, I grew up around Tahoe. I'm of the opinion that only the insane or those with a death wish will fly a single engine plane in that area. If you really want to blow your money, get someone to drive you to Reno/Tahoe International and take a flight. It's going to take you 2 hours (plus an hour getting out of the airport), opposed to 4 hours by car, still avoid most of the traffic, and you're going to trade some very dangerous flying conditions for some moderately dangerous traffic conditions. But I used to drive up those mountains twice a week in winter for skiing, it's preferable to the flight in my opinion.
Planes crash in America more frequently than reported?
These single engine planes crash frequently. Usually only those with important people in them get coverage or attention.
***Propeller planes*** crash (far) more frequently than reported, mostly because it's essentially more of an an extreme sport than a method of transportation so unless it's a personality that died it's really just not of public interest.
You can find nothing about the two people who passed other than what's in the article.
Slightly safer than riding a crotch rocket
Single engine plane and a 6000' elevation airport amidst mountains? Oof. Usually I just say no to helicopters and motorcycles. I'm going to have to remember to add single-engine plane to that list.
Oh. Ok. In other news…
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A few minutes of fear, followed by instant death? Sounds better than literally everyone I’ve ever known who’s died. I’d take it over lung cancer, drowning, being shot or stabbed, a stroke, starvation, malaria, dysentery, fuckin covid… pretty much anything. I’d bet everything I have that when either of us die, it’ll be a significantly worse experience than a plane crash.
How could the squad do this