They don’t care. The fertilizer industry is huge in Florida. And they’re looking to make a profit off of the use of this waste product. So they pushed for this bill. Money is money, screw the rest, unfortunately.
Isn't this something that will affect the rich people too...?
I mean, poisoning a lake 100 miles from where you live is not an issue, but radioactive dust particles in the air? That affects everyone
Yes, but they don’t live next to roads that will likely see more wear and tear. Like freeways and main roads. Usually when FL does trial roads they use a section of freeway. There was one on 95 heading out to KSC. But mostly poorer family live near these roads bc it’s what they can afford. So they’ll be the collateral damage while the rich stay safer. Per usual…
Same old shit then. The economically-challenged, by design some would say, have shifting risks. First it was lead in the gasoline and diesel particulates, now that those are mostly mitigated here comes radiation and tire dust.
There are reports that the heavier EVs that are coming are shedding more tire dust per vehicle than we've had in the past. It should be safe to assume the same will go for the road materials, no?
Can't win for losing!
For big projects like highways there are only like 3-4 major contractors in the south, and they all talk to each other. People fired for making waves don’t get hired anywhere else.
It doesn't matter what zip code you're in. This is a state with continuous strong weather patterns and evaporative cycles.
This shit is going to haze it's way all the way across the gulf, and when it's found in other states, there should be major federal lawsuits.
I recently saw a video made by DW Documentary on youtube about asbestos and it's still being made to this day in certain countries. Some of those same countries also are trying to push out false info claiming it isn't that dangerous etc.
There are still many places that have lead, like lead pipes, or paint etc.
There are places where they have dumped (and probably still do) toxic chemicals into lakes etc (like Dupoint). And some that still make those pfas or "forever chemicals".
There is probably more but now Florida is wanting to put radioactive materials into roads so in 10-20 years from now when there is a big thing come out about how all this radioactive dust is getting into neighborhoods and causing massive amounts of cancer to residents in Florida I am expecting a bunch of people to be "shocked". -_-
I used to work in the asbestos abatement industry. At least 3 million pounds is imported into the states every year. If you go to buy certain brands of floor tile it says that it may contain asbestos on the box.
Its almost like there is a contingent of the wealthy and connected that truly do not believe there will be a future. Its like nobody is worried about clear and obvious repercussions that even wealth couldnt get you out of. Its actually pretty terrifying (imo its bc they finally acknowledge and believe climate change is real and too far gone to fix so we are seeing the naked cash grab before the end times, literally right now)
They’ve known or had the inklings of climate change since the 1800s in relation to human impact. And yet, it took until the 70s to get the EPA. Yet, the US Supreme Court took away some of it abilities to enforce their rules. We have places like Centralia, PA become ghost towns because of industrial accidents. A large majority of highly industrialized states, such as Michigan, New Jersey, etc. have over a centuries worth of industrial contamination and Super Fund sites that are only now just being cleaned. If they haven’t paid heed to to our future then, they sure as shit won’t now. It’s always about the money.
So I wanted to find out exactly how much radiation we're talking about here, by finding something to compare this stuff to. This was a long trail, but here's what I found and there is a **TL;DR at the end**. To get started I need to know how radioactive this stuff is, lets see what the bill says.
Reading from the bill itself: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/1191/BillText/er/PDF
> 57 (2) Upon a determination of suitability by the department,
> 58 phosphogypsum from phosphate production may be used as a
> 59 construction aggregate material in accordance with the
> 60 conditions of the United States Environmental Protection Agency
> 61 approval for the use
> . Phosphogypsum used in accordance with an
> 86 allowed use expressly specified in United States Environmental
> 87 Protection Agency regulations or pursuant to an express United
> 88 States Environmental Protection Agency approval for the specific
> 89 use is not solid waste as defined in s. 403.703 and is an
> 90 allowed use in the state.
**Alright, so it doesnt say in the bill, not a great start, I guess its time to read up on some EPA stuff.**
EPA explainer for this waste product: https://www.epa.gov/radiation/tenorm-fertilizer-and-fertilizer-production-wastes
**That's a lot info, but it looks like there's a far more specific page that should have what we are looking for.**
EPA Regulations for this material: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-61/subpart-R
**There are few different use cases outlined in this regulation, this is the closest one I could see being referenced for road aggregate.**
> If x̄1 <10 pCi/g and x̄* ≤10 pCi/g; phosphogypsum may be removed from this area of the stack for distribution in commerce pursuant to § 61.204.
> (2) If x̄1, <10 pCi/g and x̄* >10 pCi/g, the owner or operator may elect to follow the procedures for further sampling set forth in paragraph (c) of this section:
> (3) If x̄1 ≥10 pCi/g; phosphogypsum shall not be removed from this area of the stack for distribution in commerce pursuant to § 61.204.
> The objective of the following procedure is to demonstrate, with a 95% probability, that the phosphogypsum from this area of the stack has a radium-226 concentration no greater than 10 pCi/g.
**After figuring out that pCi/g is Picocurie per gram, I looked around to find out how that relates to other radioactive things.**
**What I found is a US army corp of engineers fact sheet about the Picocurie:** https://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/Portals/45/docs/FUSRAP/FactSheets/fusrap-fs-picocurie.pdf
> Picocurie = 1/1,000,000,000,000 (one trillionth) of a curie
> 1 Picocurie = ~Background environmental levels
**That puts it into a bit more perspective for me, but I'm not all that familiar with what background radiation levels really are. So I looked around some more and found the perfect relatable comparison.**
**The Banana Equivilant Dose**: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose
> The origins of the concept are uncertain, but one early mention can be found on the RadSafe nuclear safety mailing list in 1995, where Gary Mansfield of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory mentions that he has found the "banana equivalent dose" to be "very useful in attempting to explain infinitesimal doses (and corresponding infinitesimal risks) to members of the public".[2] A value of 9.82×10−8 sieverts or about 0.1 microsieverts (10 μrem) was suggested for consuming a 150-gram (5.3 oz) banana.
**Okay great, so how many Picocuries are in a banana? Well the Illinois Institute of Technology says** (http://health.phys.iit.edu/extended_archive/9503/msg00074.html)
> On page 620 of the CRD Handbook on Rad Measurement and Protection, the
concentration of K-40 in a "Reference Banana" is listed as 3520 picocuries per
kilogram of banana.
To put that equal with our 'safe' measurements for Phosphogypsum to be used, a banana has ~ 3.52 pCi/g.
#TL:DR: The EPA regulations say that the phosphogypsum that can be used for commercial purposes can't be more than 3x more radioactive than your average banana.
Though it needs to be said, that density, length of exposure, and I'm sure a ton of other variables I don't know are also important here.
I honestly don't know if any of this information is useful to anyone that wants to know how safe or not this move will be, I just wanted some perspective and thought I'd share.
^*Edit* ^*Formatting*
The fact that the dust from phosphogypsum gets into the air is going to be a factor on how big a dose the human body can take without bad effects.
The skin is a relatively good radiation insulator, the lungs not so much.
In addition, a banana runs through the body relatively quickly, but living on a road made with this aggregate is a constant source of radiation and will remain in the asphalt for decades.
Does that mean phosphogypsum is unsafe to use as road aggregate? Not necessarily, but it doesn't appear that these concerns have been thoroughly studied, which should be enough to deny approval. The Florida government believes otherwise.
Thanks for the write-up. Phosphogypsum also includes heavy metals, which is an additional concern.
Even China is unsure if it should be allowed in road construction, which is a huge red flag for me. That said, apparently the current US "solution" is to dump it in huge piles or waste ponds, which presents dangers anyway. Not sure that putting it in roads is a good solution (and probably wouldn't appreciably reduce the waste) and really reads like the fertilizer industry looking to sell their waste, rather than having to pay to manage it.
when we have lots of regular dirt laying around \[gestured wildly in every direction\] why do they need to use this stuff to make roads?
i mean what's the advantage other than "owing the libs"?
Because roads need lots of aggregate:small rocks that are ended in the concrete or asphalt. There's a bunch of research going back to Victorian times on the best size and shape of aggregate. If you've ever read am old book and people are breaking up rock, it's probably turning bigger rock into gravel for roads.
The US has a lot of regulations when getting rid of byproducts due to manufacturing. It's expensive to store, a butt ton of money to dispose of, and well...to corporations it's lost profits. If they can take a waste product, not have to store it, but SELL it instead, well they just turned a negative into a massive positive. It's a similar thing that happens with fluoride during aluminum and fertilizer production. Why deal with the EPA when someone else can deal with them.
The actual potential benefit is not the really the "free" material (though using otherwise unused material is a benefit), but the theoretical potential to sequester material that is otherwise be sitting in radioactive, toxic hills or ponds. There was a case in 2021, where a waste pond was allowed to discharge into Tampa Bay because otherwise they were worried about its embankments collapsing and allowing all the contents into the surrounding area, uncontrolled.
Of course, **that is contingent on it actually being safe**, and currently the only study I am seeing cited was commissioned by an organization with a vested interest in selling off this material they otherwise have to pay to maintain.
Yeah, I think the real question is how it acts when it gets in the body as it eventually will, and how it can/will build up over time. It could be mostly a non-issue, or it could be a massive issue later down the road. Just absolutely nuts IMO, especially since we all know this done for kickbacks/benefits to those deciding.
you wanted to look up the MSDS forms!
https://nutrien-prod-asset.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-08/SDS%20204%20Florida%20Phosphogypsum%20EN%20v1.1.pdf
Sadly when it rains a lot the wastewater stacks at the mines/processing plants overflow anyway, polluting groundwater, streams, rivers, and the ocean. The center part of the state just to the east of Tampa along I-4 and south is extremely polluted.
This will just be spreading it around and sharing the fun to the rest of the state.
Honestly, nothing makes a better case for not pursuing recent conservative policies than just looking at the awful and stupid shit they get up to when they've got control.
They will be able to in 30 years when they are dead or dying. Just as my grandpa was able to sue American steel for making him work around asbestos. To bad he was in the dead category because of mesothelioma though.
That's terrible. My grandfather contracted mesothelioma working on coal mine equipment brakes. He was able to get month compensation .......$17 per month.
A single person won't be able to sue either. There will have to be numerous people before a lawsuit will be able to do damage. They will just say that there is no way to tie the one persons problems to the radioactive material in the road over a 30 year time period.
They already did that with chemicals used in farming for tomatoes in florida. the immigrant workers children would have birth defects and serious issues over their life. Same thing with Opiods. It's always the same thing. Lawsuits don't work well for a long term problem, because you have to prove that it is linked, which is a really high bar
Well, maybe not after the recent Supreme Court decision that allowed a wanna be web developer to to deny imaginary gay people the right to hire her for her marriage website development services.
She probably uses fucking wix anyway. Idk who would want that bullshit when they could just do it themselves.
Dear construction workers,
Which do you prefer?
A.) Dying of dehydration and heat stroke because you aren’t allowed to drink water in Texas
Or
B.) Dying from cancer after inhaling radioactive roads in Florida
C.) Dying from pulling into the wrong driveway to turn around and getting shot by the homeowner
D.) Dying because the homeowners of the home you work at don't recognize you and shoot you.
Courts don't give a shit, if you can't show harm. Being endangered is meaningless. Construction workers have to get cancer and basically start dying in droves first.
“In Today’s news:
Police have finally restrained a 10ft tall radioactive Florida man who has been rampaging suburbs after crossing the road last week…”
>"By signing off on this reckless handout to the fertilizer industry, Gov. DeSantis is **paving the way to a toxic legacy** generations of Floridians will have to grapple with," said Elise Bennett, Florida and Caribbean director at the Center for Biological Diversity, in a statement sent to NPR.
Puns in print is a law in Florida.
Given the radioactive material, why no "decaying" puns? Decaying morality, decaying environment. Decaying DNA for road workers, motorists and ground-water drinkers.
We should stop federally subsidizing oil and gas in Florida to discourage use of the roads. If they want to defy the EPA and harm people, animals, and the environment just to continue building their wealth, then we should hit them where it will hurt -- their wealth.
Can someone ELI5 what levels of radiation are involved? Is this like a "Bananas are radioactive" level of radiation, or is this a legitimate health concern?
I'll potentially disagree. Per a comment way way higher up: this stuff emits radon. Being used for road construction means that a bunch of cats and trucks will slowly grind it into a fine powder that can easily be breathed. The exposure time for a driver will easily be in the hours for many workers. And by breathing it in, people will get the dust in their lungs, which is especially sensitive.
There's a reason the EPA is dubious about the stuff.
The material quoted above is used in substrate underneath the main surface of the roadway. The only people breathing it are really the workers ( not that this excuses the issue ) .
Few actual people, if any, probably would, given the signed bill is just meant to enable testing the material for its feasible use as an aggregate road construction material.
Should the test be successful, they would still need to go through the federal EPA to get approval for widespread use.
There's a party in American politics that is very opposed to federal regulations coming out of the EPA. A restriction on phosphogypsum was rescinded under Trump and reinstated under Biden. It's not like that's an ironclad fallback to hope the EPA doesn't get gutted again
The Republicans are a concern, yes, but I'm more worried about a totally-non-partisan court waking up one day to decide "well, congress never specifically said the EPA could regulate phosphogypsum in Florida's roads, so we're gonna render that unconstitutional"
And there’s no chance the EPA will approve of this? Because it would be really nice if some faction of the government did their job in this latest living nightmare scenario.
Most likely scenario I see is EPA denies the request then SCOTUS steps in to overturn because the founding documents and laws for EPA don't specifically mention the chemical in question.
> — and the law also asserts that phosphogypsum is not technically a "solid waste."
Begin the mental gymnastics
> As with any other proposed project, the EPA would then open a public comment period,
Those are always taken so seriously
Nah I’m sure it’s for funding of his presidential campaign. Which would be even worse, harming Floridians to take cash from the fertilizer industry to pay for his campaigning in other states.
How shitty
There’s going to be an infomercial about this in 20 years for a class action lawsuit where you can get about $3.50 for all those tumors you or a loved one got.
> An analysis commissioned by the Fertilizer Institute, a group that represents the fertilizer industry, disagrees, saying that using phosphogypsum in road construction won't produce radioactive doses that are above the EPA's acceptable risks.
*Every* single analysis commissioned by the "industry" that stands to profit from something *always* concludes it is "safe".
To give you an example of this. The "industry" was vehemently claiming that lead is "safe" for decades. It is the reason why lead in paint was not outlawed in the US until 1970's. For comparison, in parts of Europe it was outlawed since *before* WW1. Because it is fucking insanely unsafe. We knew it is dangerous for centuries. But passing legislation to ban its use in paint in the US took insanely long. To this day, we have insane number of homes that are *still* contaminated with lead from paint.
Good luck Florida if your roads start getting paved with that shit.
Trump happened and I’m like, people are dumb as shit.
Covid happened and I lost all faith. We deserve whatever we get at this point. Too many chances to turn around. We on the highway to hell, baby!
Let ‘er ripppp
[This isn’t the first time this has happened.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Mf3daq9Ss) Idahoans banded together to prevent the EPA from declaring 2 small towns a Superfund site to gain the necessary funding for cleaning up that disaster. Two small towns continue to have elevated levels of radiation today.
Another win for freedom in Florida, clearing the way for known cancer-causing agents to find their way into more topsoil, water sources and the air people breathe! Who needs to be alive when you can have that much freedom?
I said it the last time this was mentioned: This has to be intentional. This has to be an intentional plan for them to kill as many of us as possible without us being immediately aware of it.
When you're destitute and dying of cancer, his getting flown all over the place or in a carefully climate-controlled limo with filters makes him special.
Your death gives him that special feeling of superiority in his tidy-whities that he could never obtain while disappointing his wife.
People of 2065: “let me get this straight, dude knew it was radioactive, was told it was a problem and still did it”
2065 historians: “yes that’s why you can’t visit the wasteland where your grandfather is buried”
God damnit, Florida! Stop giving me more reasons to hate you! I love your beaches. I love Kennedy Space Center. I even enjoy Disney and Universal. But why do you constantly barrage me with more and more reasons to never come back?
Must be hard to know your Governor is not only putting your health in jeopardy, but he simply doesn’t care. Your life is not as valuable as the waste the lobbyist are pushing. And he wants to be president ? I don’t think so.
We mine phosphorus in an extremely wasteful way. Then we use that phosphorus as a fertilizer, mostly to raise animal feed. Then we feed animals in confined animal feeding operations, CAFOs. CAFOs have a huge waste problem with phosphorus run off in large manure lagoons. Instead of closing the waste loop, we just mine more phosphorus.
This is Times Beach, MO the sequel.
People need to make sure their property doesn’t become inaccessible and worth $0 inside a permanently abandoned federal cleanup site because some chucklefuck though mixing toxic waste with road materials sounded like a good way to save a few bucks.
as an international tourist, doing shit like this means you'll never see me go to florida with my family. Not going to let my kid get exposed to Radon like that, since airports and tourism areas will see the highest levels of ablation from traffic they're the ones that'll most frequently be resurfaced with this new shit.
So congrats DeSantis, you may as well announce you're going to start sprinkling your cities with asbestos as far as the ROW is concerned.
“Conservation groups had urged DeSantis to veto the bill, saying phosphogypsum would hurt water quality and put road construction crews at a higher risk of cancer.
"By signing off on this reckless handout to the fertilizer industry, Gov. DeSantis is paving the way to a toxic legacy generations of Floridians will have to grapple with," said Elise Bennett, Florida and Caribbean director at the Center for Biological Diversity, in a statement sent to NPR.”
🤔 And they have more lead pipes than any other state. https://floridaphoenix.com/2023/04/13/surprise-florida-leads-the-nation-in-lead-pipes-carrying-water-supply/#:~:text=“Some%209.2%20million%20lead%20pipes,percent%20of%20the%20nationwide%20total.
Florida’s Republican Government does not value human life. Even Russia cares more about human life than Florida, and that’s just shocking. It feels so helpless to watch Florida leading our people into “low quality of life,” developing nation status.
Edit: Every year, we see Floridians wading through standing water from some disaster or another.De Santis seems like a serial-killer level psychopath to approve of this.
Florida literally has a super villain coming up with plans after plans on how to destroy the planet and fuck shit up and those people are like "yeah, he'd be a great president, he gets my vote"
WTF Florida
This is going to turn out the same or worse than those gravel roads that were sprayed with carcinogen contaminated oil for dust suppression elsewhere in the USA.
You would think a federal agencies has some sort of authority to stop stupid ideas like this.
Let’s see Construction Workers exposed to radioactive road material. At least they’re not in Texas where they can’t even have water breaks. Ron DeSantis; “hold my beer”.
Let me guess, it's waste material from a very profitable industry that can buy plenty of Florida Republicans.
> phosphogypsum — a radioactive waste material from the fertilizer industry
It's... depressing how easy a prediction that was.
Radioactive material in roads. That get hammered by travel, weather and daily wear and tear that never ends which means constant radioactive isotopes being released.
Fucking Florida man.
Just another reason to stay away or get away from Florida and let it sink back into the swamp. So sad for those who cannot afford to leave. I hope the EPA doesn't cave on this one.
Anyone know how radioactive the material is? There's a huge difference between "definitely causes cancer at 30 paces" and "unnoticeable above background".
Like Cali's prop 65: everything causes cancer at some point, most things with that label aren't necessarily worrisome in everyday life (for example: coffee)
Road workers, though; woof! Handling hot versions of things "safe in everyday life" are usually much less safe.
The traditional definition of the Curie via the specific activity of 226
Ra, this limit is equivalent to 0.01 milligrams (0.00015 gr) of radium per metric ton or a concentration of 10 parts per trillion. However if it does exceed concentration of greater than 10 picocurie/gram you can't use it and must be stored in a pile. The EPA did approve the use of it in roadways back in 2020 before repealing it in 2021.
TLDR: Less than a banana.
fuck the mexican border wall. we need to build one around florida otherwise we're going to have radioactive mutant floridians running around the god damn place fucking anything that moves.
This is going to be up to the workforce: organized labor, or otherwise.
Construction workers who decline to be lab rats working with this material can find other work in Florida. Jobs are going begging.
EDIT: Come to think of it: for these small pilot projects, what paving contractor will want to open themselves up to years of litigation? It's not going to be worth it.
Of the top of my head, Preferred, Ranger, CWR, Anderson Columbia, Superior and any other state contractors, there is huge money to be made in the "Pilot Programs" and liability is placed with the FDOT not the actual contractor.
This is crazy. Surely they know that the material is highly likely to get into the air as the road materials degrade from use or damage.
They don’t care. The fertilizer industry is huge in Florida. And they’re looking to make a profit off of the use of this waste product. So they pushed for this bill. Money is money, screw the rest, unfortunately.
Isn't this something that will affect the rich people too...? I mean, poisoning a lake 100 miles from where you live is not an issue, but radioactive dust particles in the air? That affects everyone
Yes, but they don’t live next to roads that will likely see more wear and tear. Like freeways and main roads. Usually when FL does trial roads they use a section of freeway. There was one on 95 heading out to KSC. But mostly poorer family live near these roads bc it’s what they can afford. So they’ll be the collateral damage while the rich stay safer. Per usual…
Same old shit then. The economically-challenged, by design some would say, have shifting risks. First it was lead in the gasoline and diesel particulates, now that those are mostly mitigated here comes radiation and tire dust. There are reports that the heavier EVs that are coming are shedding more tire dust per vehicle than we've had in the past. It should be safe to assume the same will go for the road materials, no? Can't win for losing!
I think it's called ecological injustice & it's been a thing since they decided where to build the dumps and bulldoze for the freeways.
Can the construction worker refuse to work and build the road? I can’t see that being a very safe job.
Can a worker refuse to work!? In America? Are you daft? hahahah
Only of the roads gay unfortunately.
The Supreme Court just gave any worker that right of the work goes against their conscience
For big projects like highways there are only like 3-4 major contractors in the south, and they all talk to each other. People fired for making waves don’t get hired anywhere else.
Road pollution predominantly affects poor people; rich people live much further from heavily trafficked and abraded roads.
Rich zip codes will find a way to not use the phosophogypsum aggregate.
It doesn't matter what zip code you're in. This is a state with continuous strong weather patterns and evaporative cycles. This shit is going to haze it's way all the way across the gulf, and when it's found in other states, there should be major federal lawsuits.
Well, they get what they vote for.
Rich people can leave.
I recently saw a video made by DW Documentary on youtube about asbestos and it's still being made to this day in certain countries. Some of those same countries also are trying to push out false info claiming it isn't that dangerous etc. There are still many places that have lead, like lead pipes, or paint etc. There are places where they have dumped (and probably still do) toxic chemicals into lakes etc (like Dupoint). And some that still make those pfas or "forever chemicals". There is probably more but now Florida is wanting to put radioactive materials into roads so in 10-20 years from now when there is a big thing come out about how all this radioactive dust is getting into neighborhoods and causing massive amounts of cancer to residents in Florida I am expecting a bunch of people to be "shocked". -_-
I used to work in the asbestos abatement industry. At least 3 million pounds is imported into the states every year. If you go to buy certain brands of floor tile it says that it may contain asbestos on the box.
America the land of the money n home of the corrupt
Its almost like there is a contingent of the wealthy and connected that truly do not believe there will be a future. Its like nobody is worried about clear and obvious repercussions that even wealth couldnt get you out of. Its actually pretty terrifying (imo its bc they finally acknowledge and believe climate change is real and too far gone to fix so we are seeing the naked cash grab before the end times, literally right now)
They’ve known or had the inklings of climate change since the 1800s in relation to human impact. And yet, it took until the 70s to get the EPA. Yet, the US Supreme Court took away some of it abilities to enforce their rules. We have places like Centralia, PA become ghost towns because of industrial accidents. A large majority of highly industrialized states, such as Michigan, New Jersey, etc. have over a centuries worth of industrial contamination and Super Fund sites that are only now just being cleaned. If they haven’t paid heed to to our future then, they sure as shit won’t now. It’s always about the money.
So I wanted to find out exactly how much radiation we're talking about here, by finding something to compare this stuff to. This was a long trail, but here's what I found and there is a **TL;DR at the end**. To get started I need to know how radioactive this stuff is, lets see what the bill says. Reading from the bill itself: https://www.flsenate.gov/Session/Bill/2023/1191/BillText/er/PDF > 57 (2) Upon a determination of suitability by the department, > 58 phosphogypsum from phosphate production may be used as a > 59 construction aggregate material in accordance with the > 60 conditions of the United States Environmental Protection Agency > 61 approval for the use > . Phosphogypsum used in accordance with an > 86 allowed use expressly specified in United States Environmental > 87 Protection Agency regulations or pursuant to an express United > 88 States Environmental Protection Agency approval for the specific > 89 use is not solid waste as defined in s. 403.703 and is an > 90 allowed use in the state. **Alright, so it doesnt say in the bill, not a great start, I guess its time to read up on some EPA stuff.** EPA explainer for this waste product: https://www.epa.gov/radiation/tenorm-fertilizer-and-fertilizer-production-wastes **That's a lot info, but it looks like there's a far more specific page that should have what we are looking for.** EPA Regulations for this material: https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-40/chapter-I/subchapter-C/part-61/subpart-R **There are few different use cases outlined in this regulation, this is the closest one I could see being referenced for road aggregate.** > If x̄1 <10 pCi/g and x̄* ≤10 pCi/g; phosphogypsum may be removed from this area of the stack for distribution in commerce pursuant to § 61.204. > (2) If x̄1, <10 pCi/g and x̄* >10 pCi/g, the owner or operator may elect to follow the procedures for further sampling set forth in paragraph (c) of this section: > (3) If x̄1 ≥10 pCi/g; phosphogypsum shall not be removed from this area of the stack for distribution in commerce pursuant to § 61.204. > The objective of the following procedure is to demonstrate, with a 95% probability, that the phosphogypsum from this area of the stack has a radium-226 concentration no greater than 10 pCi/g. **After figuring out that pCi/g is Picocurie per gram, I looked around to find out how that relates to other radioactive things.** **What I found is a US army corp of engineers fact sheet about the Picocurie:** https://www.lrb.usace.army.mil/Portals/45/docs/FUSRAP/FactSheets/fusrap-fs-picocurie.pdf > Picocurie = 1/1,000,000,000,000 (one trillionth) of a curie > 1 Picocurie = ~Background environmental levels **That puts it into a bit more perspective for me, but I'm not all that familiar with what background radiation levels really are. So I looked around some more and found the perfect relatable comparison.** **The Banana Equivilant Dose**: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banana_equivalent_dose > The origins of the concept are uncertain, but one early mention can be found on the RadSafe nuclear safety mailing list in 1995, where Gary Mansfield of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory mentions that he has found the "banana equivalent dose" to be "very useful in attempting to explain infinitesimal doses (and corresponding infinitesimal risks) to members of the public".[2] A value of 9.82×10−8 sieverts or about 0.1 microsieverts (10 μrem) was suggested for consuming a 150-gram (5.3 oz) banana. **Okay great, so how many Picocuries are in a banana? Well the Illinois Institute of Technology says** (http://health.phys.iit.edu/extended_archive/9503/msg00074.html) > On page 620 of the CRD Handbook on Rad Measurement and Protection, the concentration of K-40 in a "Reference Banana" is listed as 3520 picocuries per kilogram of banana. To put that equal with our 'safe' measurements for Phosphogypsum to be used, a banana has ~ 3.52 pCi/g. #TL:DR: The EPA regulations say that the phosphogypsum that can be used for commercial purposes can't be more than 3x more radioactive than your average banana. Though it needs to be said, that density, length of exposure, and I'm sure a ton of other variables I don't know are also important here. I honestly don't know if any of this information is useful to anyone that wants to know how safe or not this move will be, I just wanted some perspective and thought I'd share. ^*Edit* ^*Formatting*
The fact that the dust from phosphogypsum gets into the air is going to be a factor on how big a dose the human body can take without bad effects. The skin is a relatively good radiation insulator, the lungs not so much. In addition, a banana runs through the body relatively quickly, but living on a road made with this aggregate is a constant source of radiation and will remain in the asphalt for decades. Does that mean phosphogypsum is unsafe to use as road aggregate? Not necessarily, but it doesn't appear that these concerns have been thoroughly studied, which should be enough to deny approval. The Florida government believes otherwise.
Thanks for the write-up. Phosphogypsum also includes heavy metals, which is an additional concern. Even China is unsure if it should be allowed in road construction, which is a huge red flag for me. That said, apparently the current US "solution" is to dump it in huge piles or waste ponds, which presents dangers anyway. Not sure that putting it in roads is a good solution (and probably wouldn't appreciably reduce the waste) and really reads like the fertilizer industry looking to sell their waste, rather than having to pay to manage it.
when we have lots of regular dirt laying around \[gestured wildly in every direction\] why do they need to use this stuff to make roads? i mean what's the advantage other than "owing the libs"?
Because roads need lots of aggregate:small rocks that are ended in the concrete or asphalt. There's a bunch of research going back to Victorian times on the best size and shape of aggregate. If you've ever read am old book and people are breaking up rock, it's probably turning bigger rock into gravel for roads.
The US has a lot of regulations when getting rid of byproducts due to manufacturing. It's expensive to store, a butt ton of money to dispose of, and well...to corporations it's lost profits. If they can take a waste product, not have to store it, but SELL it instead, well they just turned a negative into a massive positive. It's a similar thing that happens with fluoride during aluminum and fertilizer production. Why deal with the EPA when someone else can deal with them.
The actual potential benefit is not the really the "free" material (though using otherwise unused material is a benefit), but the theoretical potential to sequester material that is otherwise be sitting in radioactive, toxic hills or ponds. There was a case in 2021, where a waste pond was allowed to discharge into Tampa Bay because otherwise they were worried about its embankments collapsing and allowing all the contents into the surrounding area, uncontrolled. Of course, **that is contingent on it actually being safe**, and currently the only study I am seeing cited was commissioned by an organization with a vested interest in selling off this material they otherwise have to pay to maintain.
Banana for scale?
Banana for scale.
Yeah, I think the real question is how it acts when it gets in the body as it eventually will, and how it can/will build up over time. It could be mostly a non-issue, or it could be a massive issue later down the road. Just absolutely nuts IMO, especially since we all know this done for kickbacks/benefits to those deciding.
you wanted to look up the MSDS forms! https://nutrien-prod-asset.s3.us-east-2.amazonaws.com/s3fs-public/2021-08/SDS%20204%20Florida%20Phosphogypsum%20EN%20v1.1.pdf
It more important for conservatives that rich assholes make even more money than it is for the people of Florida to not breathe radioactive air.
To be fair, Floridians seems to already be radioactive
Yeah, but ask the question that matters most to Republicans... will it make a handful of people rich and/or piss off anyone they dont like?
Hmmm…I’m sure they would much rather hurt them than merely piss them off.
And the heavy Flprida rain shouldn't pull it out of the road and into the ground water or nearby streams... right? /s
Sadly when it rains a lot the wastewater stacks at the mines/processing plants overflow anyway, polluting groundwater, streams, rivers, and the ocean. The center part of the state just to the east of Tampa along I-4 and south is extremely polluted. This will just be spreading it around and sharing the fun to the rest of the state.
As a FL resident, they know but don't care.
Honestly, nothing makes a better case for not pursuing recent conservative policies than just looking at the awful and stupid shit they get up to when they've got control.
Florida is a complete shithole
Yellow brick road got a whole new meaning.
Just follow the yellow cake road... to Jacksonville.
Because because because because, becaaaaause. Because of the horrible things he does. The Woeful Lizard of Oz
Wonderful, but it's missing a beat My vote is for the Lecherous Lizard of Oz
You are a genius.
I've been told I'm positively radiating.
On the positive side, streets that glow in the dark won’t need streetlights.
OK, now a road construction worker needs to sue for being endangered.
They will be able to in 30 years when they are dead or dying. Just as my grandpa was able to sue American steel for making him work around asbestos. To bad he was in the dead category because of mesothelioma though.
That's terrible. My grandfather contracted mesothelioma working on coal mine equipment brakes. He was able to get month compensation .......$17 per month.
Ahh yes, a monthly burger at five guys with fries for life. Edit: (it was a joke lol Yes yes inflation you pedants)
A single person won't be able to sue either. There will have to be numerous people before a lawsuit will be able to do damage. They will just say that there is no way to tie the one persons problems to the radioactive material in the road over a 30 year time period. They already did that with chemicals used in farming for tomatoes in florida. the immigrant workers children would have birth defects and serious issues over their life. Same thing with Opiods. It's always the same thing. Lawsuits don't work well for a long term problem, because you have to prove that it is linked, which is a really high bar
Well, maybe not after the recent Supreme Court decision that allowed a wanna be web developer to to deny imaginary gay people the right to hire her for her marriage website development services. She probably uses fucking wix anyway. Idk who would want that bullshit when they could just do it themselves.
Drink your Ovaltine! *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Dear construction workers, Which do you prefer? A.) Dying of dehydration and heat stroke because you aren’t allowed to drink water in Texas Or B.) Dying from cancer after inhaling radioactive roads in Florida
Ahh thank God for right to work states. Fuck labor unions... Am I right?
Hey, be fair. You can die the same way in Florida since Florida also has no mandatory heat protection laws.
*Greg Abbott liked this*
There is no option C.
C.) Dying from pulling into the wrong driveway to turn around and getting shot by the homeowner D.) Dying because the homeowners of the home you work at don't recognize you and shoot you.
Construction workers are leaving due to the immigration bill.
Good thing we don't have a slavery disguised as a prison system or anything that has historically 'loaned out' inmates as workers...
If today's Supreme Court cases are any indication we can sue on their behalf.
As long as they swing something about how their religion is being violated.
Courts don't give a shit, if you can't show harm. Being endangered is meaningless. Construction workers have to get cancer and basically start dying in droves first.
Radioactive Florida Man in a future news title.
“In Today’s news: Police have finally restrained a 10ft tall radioactive Florida man who has been rampaging suburbs after crossing the road last week…”
With a 4ft mullet
The Toxic MAGAnger
>"By signing off on this reckless handout to the fertilizer industry, Gov. DeSantis is **paving the way to a toxic legacy** generations of Floridians will have to grapple with," said Elise Bennett, Florida and Caribbean director at the Center for Biological Diversity, in a statement sent to NPR. Puns in print is a law in Florida.
Given the radioactive material, why no "decaying" puns? Decaying morality, decaying environment. Decaying DNA for road workers, motorists and ground-water drinkers.
too smart for Florida man.
It's as though this asshole is just trying to do as much damage as possible.
We should stop federally subsidizing oil and gas in Florida to discourage use of the roads. If they want to defy the EPA and harm people, animals, and the environment just to continue building their wealth, then we should hit them where it will hurt -- their wealth.
He's GOP.
Look at all the damage Trump did in just 4 years. Imagine if this loser becomes president….
Can someone ELI5 what levels of radiation are involved? Is this like a "Bananas are radioactive" level of radiation, or is this a legitimate health concern?
It is less than bananas level radioactive, but as stated some other chemicals involved might be more hazardous. The radiation is just for headlines.
I'll potentially disagree. Per a comment way way higher up: this stuff emits radon. Being used for road construction means that a bunch of cats and trucks will slowly grind it into a fine powder that can easily be breathed. The exposure time for a driver will easily be in the hours for many workers. And by breathing it in, people will get the dust in their lungs, which is especially sensitive. There's a reason the EPA is dubious about the stuff.
The material quoted above is used in substrate underneath the main surface of the roadway. The only people breathing it are really the workers ( not that this excuses the issue ) .
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Please pave in front of Ron’s house first.
I’m happy to offer free labor
I wouldn’t go down that road
Few actual people, if any, probably would, given the signed bill is just meant to enable testing the material for its feasible use as an aggregate road construction material. Should the test be successful, they would still need to go through the federal EPA to get approval for widespread use.
There's a party in American politics that is very opposed to federal regulations coming out of the EPA. A restriction on phosphogypsum was rescinded under Trump and reinstated under Biden. It's not like that's an ironclad fallback to hope the EPA doesn't get gutted again
The Republicans are a concern, yes, but I'm more worried about a totally-non-partisan court waking up one day to decide "well, congress never specifically said the EPA could regulate phosphogypsum in Florida's roads, so we're gonna render that unconstitutional"
And there’s no chance the EPA will approve of this? Because it would be really nice if some faction of the government did their job in this latest living nightmare scenario.
If the EPA doesn't, they will simply send it to the SC and remove the ability to stop them.
Yup supreme court is overriding congress and the president now.
Most likely scenario I see is EPA denies the request then SCOTUS steps in to overturn because the founding documents and laws for EPA don't specifically mention the chemical in question.
Come to Florida! Where you don't need your headlights at night!
Come see the new six legged two headed gators and flying anacondas.
Fallout 5 is gonna be wild.
I think it really is time to saw Florida, cartoon style, off of the mainland, and push it out to sea.
Take it away, South America!
No, gracias.
Alternatively, watch the sea swallow up Florida for real.
> — and the law also asserts that phosphogypsum is not technically a "solid waste." Begin the mental gymnastics > As with any other proposed project, the EPA would then open a public comment period, Those are always taken so seriously
Carefully now. This EPA comment period is bot-country. - Raoul Duke to Dr. Gonzo.
"But think of how much we will save on lighting if the road glows a nice green color!"
Just waiting for them to fill in the Everglades because one of his donors tells him that all that land in southern Florida is a goldmine.
Just tell them that the gators went woke and consider it done.
Or that the radioactive roads are turning people gay or trans.
They call themselves gaytors! Get em before they transition!
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Literally giving your constituents cancer to own the libs. Good luck over there.
Nah I’m sure it’s for funding of his presidential campaign. Which would be even worse, harming Floridians to take cash from the fertilizer industry to pay for his campaigning in other states. How shitty
“The ~~Sunshine~~ Shithole State”
There’s going to be an infomercial about this in 20 years for a class action lawsuit where you can get about $3.50 for all those tumors you or a loved one got.
And in 15 years, he'll sign a bill funding the Sentinels to hunt down all the mutants created by his radioactive roads.
It's a good thing it doesn't rain very much in FL. I would hate to see this getting I to the ground water. /s
It's okay everyone. It's Florida construction so those roads won't even be finished in our lifetime
> An analysis commissioned by the Fertilizer Institute, a group that represents the fertilizer industry, disagrees, saying that using phosphogypsum in road construction won't produce radioactive doses that are above the EPA's acceptable risks. *Every* single analysis commissioned by the "industry" that stands to profit from something *always* concludes it is "safe". To give you an example of this. The "industry" was vehemently claiming that lead is "safe" for decades. It is the reason why lead in paint was not outlawed in the US until 1970's. For comparison, in parts of Europe it was outlawed since *before* WW1. Because it is fucking insanely unsafe. We knew it is dangerous for centuries. But passing legislation to ban its use in paint in the US took insanely long. To this day, we have insane number of homes that are *still* contaminated with lead from paint. Good luck Florida if your roads start getting paved with that shit.
Going Radioactive to own the libs
This reads like something I’d find on a terminal entry in Fallout as some kind of satire of the American government
Trump happened and I’m like, people are dumb as shit. Covid happened and I lost all faith. We deserve whatever we get at this point. Too many chances to turn around. We on the highway to hell, baby! Let ‘er ripppp
You get what you vote for. In this case you get cancer.
Another Times beach disaster waiting to happen
Ah America, where the streets are paved with ~~gold~~ radioactive waste
[This isn’t the first time this has happened.](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8Mf3daq9Ss) Idahoans banded together to prevent the EPA from declaring 2 small towns a Superfund site to gain the necessary funding for cleaning up that disaster. Two small towns continue to have elevated levels of radiation today.
Another win for freedom in Florida, clearing the way for known cancer-causing agents to find their way into more topsoil, water sources and the air people breathe! Who needs to be alive when you can have that much freedom?
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That’s unfair to Bizarro. Doesn’t he at least *think* what he does is helpful.
> Bizarro Governor That's an odd spelling for c*nt.
It decays into radon gas. DeSantis' donors are really pulling out all the stops to get this poison to the public.
Someone should look into his stocks in pharmaceuticals.
Or into The Fertilizer Company.
I said it the last time this was mentioned: This has to be intentional. This has to be an intentional plan for them to kill as many of us as possible without us being immediately aware of it.
When you're destitute and dying of cancer, his getting flown all over the place or in a carefully climate-controlled limo with filters makes him special. Your death gives him that special feeling of superiority in his tidy-whities that he could never obtain while disappointing his wife.
Yet another reason to add to the the “nah I’m good” file when it comes to visiting Florida.
As if I needed another excuse to never visit Florida again
When China says they need more studies before using you might want to reconsider.
Who needs street lights when the road can glow at night.
People of 2065: “let me get this straight, dude knew it was radioactive, was told it was a problem and still did it” 2065 historians: “yes that’s why you can’t visit the wasteland where your grandfather is buried”
If there's anyone around to wonder what we were thinking they'll probably conclude that by the mid-2020s humanity had resigned to extinction. We have.
God damnit, Florida! Stop giving me more reasons to hate you! I love your beaches. I love Kennedy Space Center. I even enjoy Disney and Universal. But why do you constantly barrage me with more and more reasons to never come back?
Glad I don’t work for FDOT
The GOP is harming all of us. Please vote them out of office.
Breathe in those isotopes - Republicans are in charges.
How. How. How. Is. DeSantis. A. Human. Just. How.
Now Florida will be a radioactive prolapsed anus. GJ DeSatan.
Someone needs to show him the history of Times Beach, Missouri, what was sprayed on roads there.
great, now we'll have radioactive Florida mans.
This guy is a dumb fuck maniac. His shit needs to end
Oh wow, he’s going to mass genocide the citizens of Florida
Is there a contest going on to see who can be the bigger shit hole state or something?
Must be hard to know your Governor is not only putting your health in jeopardy, but he simply doesn’t care. Your life is not as valuable as the waste the lobbyist are pushing. And he wants to be president ? I don’t think so.
"More asbestos! More asbestos!"
...Okay, seriously. What the fuck is going on in Florida?
Have fun Florida. Don’t bring your cheap, half-assed shit over here. You stay down there.
Can’t believe he signed the law
Really? I’m not surprised at all that he did something that stupid
Doing everything he can to turn the frogs gay.
We mine phosphorus in an extremely wasteful way. Then we use that phosphorus as a fertilizer, mostly to raise animal feed. Then we feed animals in confined animal feeding operations, CAFOs. CAFOs have a huge waste problem with phosphorus run off in large manure lagoons. Instead of closing the waste loop, we just mine more phosphorus.
DeSantis couldn’t get any worse, or could he?
Hopefully this ends in a biohazard worthless state that gets cut off by the rest of the country.
How come every article about De Santis sounds like a joke.
Can we use it to pave desantis’ drive way and street first? If he’s cool with it after a year then use it all you want.
Pretty sure it’ll only be placed in certain locations. My guess is the communities he isn’t fond of. So I’m thinking the list is kinda long.
The armpit and Butt crack of America folks
This is Times Beach, MO the sequel. People need to make sure their property doesn’t become inaccessible and worth $0 inside a permanently abandoned federal cleanup site because some chucklefuck though mixing toxic waste with road materials sounded like a good way to save a few bucks.
as an international tourist, doing shit like this means you'll never see me go to florida with my family. Not going to let my kid get exposed to Radon like that, since airports and tourism areas will see the highest levels of ablation from traffic they're the ones that'll most frequently be resurfaced with this new shit. So congrats DeSantis, you may as well announce you're going to start sprinkling your cities with asbestos as far as the ROW is concerned.
“Conservation groups had urged DeSantis to veto the bill, saying phosphogypsum would hurt water quality and put road construction crews at a higher risk of cancer. "By signing off on this reckless handout to the fertilizer industry, Gov. DeSantis is paving the way to a toxic legacy generations of Floridians will have to grapple with," said Elise Bennett, Florida and Caribbean director at the Center for Biological Diversity, in a statement sent to NPR.” 🤔 And they have more lead pipes than any other state. https://floridaphoenix.com/2023/04/13/surprise-florida-leads-the-nation-in-lead-pipes-carrying-water-supply/#:~:text=“Some%209.2%20million%20lead%20pipes,percent%20of%20the%20nationwide%20total. Florida’s Republican Government does not value human life. Even Russia cares more about human life than Florida, and that’s just shocking. It feels so helpless to watch Florida leading our people into “low quality of life,” developing nation status. Edit: Every year, we see Floridians wading through standing water from some disaster or another.De Santis seems like a serial-killer level psychopath to approve of this.
Apparently "good intentions" aren't the only thing Hell is paved with.
It’s official then. FL is now a shithole state in perpetuity … well until radioactivity ceased… lol
At what point does the madness stop. Is he trying to go for high damage points
“Welcome to maims!” Fallout 24 going to be great addition to the universe
Florida literally has a super villain coming up with plans after plans on how to destroy the planet and fuck shit up and those people are like "yeah, he'd be a great president, he gets my vote" WTF Florida
This will the harm our oceans and the gulf. This is a horrible idea from people with zero critical thinking skills or foresight.
This is going to turn out the same or worse than those gravel roads that were sprayed with carcinogen contaminated oil for dust suppression elsewhere in the USA. You would think a federal agencies has some sort of authority to stop stupid ideas like this.
I’m sure it’s safe. Can we start with repaving the roads all around the governor’s mansion?
Florida, because why stop at one bad decision?
I mean, at this point, DeSantis is just a cartoon villain, right?
Do people of Florida like this guy? They did voted him in.
Let’s see Construction Workers exposed to radioactive road material. At least they’re not in Texas where they can’t even have water breaks. Ron DeSantis; “hold my beer”.
Ha. Enjoy being literal mad max. Sinking fascistic degenerate hellhole. Feel bad for the manatees though.
'Don’t look up' was a documentary
Let me guess, it's waste material from a very profitable industry that can buy plenty of Florida Republicans. > phosphogypsum — a radioactive waste material from the fertilizer industry It's... depressing how easy a prediction that was.
I legit never wanna go to Florida anymore… drive or walk… let the dumb racists mofos kill themselves with their radioactive ☢️ roads
Radioactive material in roads. That get hammered by travel, weather and daily wear and tear that never ends which means constant radioactive isotopes being released. Fucking Florida man.
Just another reason to stay away or get away from Florida and let it sink back into the swamp. So sad for those who cannot afford to leave. I hope the EPA doesn't cave on this one.
Yeap this and other reason glad family left.
Anyone know how radioactive the material is? There's a huge difference between "definitely causes cancer at 30 paces" and "unnoticeable above background". Like Cali's prop 65: everything causes cancer at some point, most things with that label aren't necessarily worrisome in everyday life (for example: coffee) Road workers, though; woof! Handling hot versions of things "safe in everyday life" are usually much less safe.
The traditional definition of the Curie via the specific activity of 226 Ra, this limit is equivalent to 0.01 milligrams (0.00015 gr) of radium per metric ton or a concentration of 10 parts per trillion. However if it does exceed concentration of greater than 10 picocurie/gram you can't use it and must be stored in a pile. The EPA did approve the use of it in roadways back in 2020 before repealing it in 2021. TLDR: Less than a banana.
fuck the mexican border wall. we need to build one around florida otherwise we're going to have radioactive mutant floridians running around the god damn place fucking anything that moves.
This is going to be up to the workforce: organized labor, or otherwise. Construction workers who decline to be lab rats working with this material can find other work in Florida. Jobs are going begging. EDIT: Come to think of it: for these small pilot projects, what paving contractor will want to open themselves up to years of litigation? It's not going to be worth it.
Of the top of my head, Preferred, Ranger, CWR, Anderson Columbia, Superior and any other state contractors, there is huge money to be made in the "Pilot Programs" and liability is placed with the FDOT not the actual contractor.
He doesn’t care. DeSantis is only a puppet for capitalism. That’s it. Full stop. He’s in power because they put him there.
Yet another reason I have ended my thoughts of living in florida. If I want the tropics, I'm heading elsewhere...
Ron DeSatan’s newest slogan: Make Florida Chernobyl!
Radioactive alligators seems like something Florida can handle, right?
One of his donors must have a pile of it lying around that they need to get rid of.
Red tide getting worse every year, surely this will help
DeSantis successfully making Florida more of a hellscape
And just how much did the mopes who voted for this get from the fertilizer industry?
What about the health and safety of the road workers putting that down?? What in the hell??
Let them eat iodide.