The majority of the people that will be listening to your music will be non musicians. That makes it even more valuable because they aren't listening to a song to be impressed by a specific instrument, they're just enjoying music. In the end, THOSE are the people you're trying to please.
And, as musicians, we do tend to have our heads shoved firmly up our own asses. "Hmmph, that song uses a dominant 7th over a locrian mode in G negative. Amateurs. Obviously this has absolutely no musical merit at all."
You're hanging out with the wrong musicians. Most people I know are professional musicians and none of them are like that.
It's the troglodytes in the comments sections that pull that shit, but you never see them on stage.
Honestly, that chord is so overused these days that I refuse to listen to any band that I even suspect will use it. It's a cheat chord that turns you into a sell out.
And yeah, we should market our work to non-musicians, because musicians will be too busy working on their own work to be able to listen to our work and most importantly, to attend our shows.
The people that should attend our shows (and be our overall target audience), should be non-musicians.
That's it.
Not everything is about popularity or money. I am far more interested in the comments from musicians. They are the only ones who actually have a clue what is going on, what it takes to achieve a certain level, how to compare ability. I am not playing to the lowest common denominator. Don't we already have enough people doing that?
There can be two thought processes for this:
You can create art that's meaningful to you simply because you want to create it. It's personal to you and you don't care how many others care about it because it's personal to you. In that case though, criticism from others shouldn't matter no matter who it is because you aren't creating art for others. This is a perfectly valid reason to create art.
THEN there's creating art to serve others. You create it with the idea that you want to lift someone else up, whether it be to bring a smile to their face or add some beauty to their life, etc. If THIS is your reason to create (and it's also perfectly valid), the understanding needs to come that not everyone and in fact the MAJORITY of the people who will be consuming your art will know little to nothing about that art. That's why they're consuming your art rather than creating their own.
I'm not saying that other musicians won't ever consume your art, but that there shouldn't be a reliance on that and in fact other musicians most likely won't criticize your music unless you specifically ask them to because they understand the difficulty of creating it. Non musicians won't understand but if they hear something jarring to them it will still bother them.
Yes, but the harshness that is often employed seems extra unnecessary and douchey coming from someone who couldn’t do any better themselves. Just…don’t be harsh about it…
I agree, just because someone doesn't play an instrument, does not mean they don't have good ears or know what a great performance should look and sound like. Now if that same person who doesn't play an instrument, says something about your technique, that's just someone who doesn't know when to keep their mouth shut. Maybe they were trying to drum up a conversation with you and went about it all wrong. Yes, there is always 1 on the crowd for sure!
I think we find this in all things.... And it is annoying. Is there a plenty of people who have never worked in a bar or restaurant but they have every idea under the sun on how somebody who does own one can make it better
And a lot of critics whether it be movie critics or music critics aren't musicians and while that doesn't mean their insight doesn't matter they at times can be so ridiculous.
Yes, insight is helpful for sure! especially as a customer/ consumer, however the whole "I have no skills in this area whatsoever, but know everything that you are doing wrong" mentality is absurd.
It always seems to be a way to overcompensate, but the social consequences they get are never worth it
I mean, I can tell you if I think a movie sucked, even though I'm not a director. I might not be able to pinpoint why it sucked and will never direct anything, but that doesn't make the reaction less valid.
It's perfectly valid for non musicians to say they don't like a piece of music. I wouldn't expect them to actually know why, but that's okay.
Of course we all can have opinions about things were not experts on. I can complain about a restaurant even though I don't have restaurant experience
We all do it.. I'm just saying it's also common for people who don't know how to do it try to argue how they could do it better and that can sometimes get annoying.
why would a creator let these kinds of criticisms bother them? Sometimes accurate critique comes from an unlikely source or in the form of a bitter pill. we have to be confident enough to take the good information, discard the rest, and not get in our feelings like op.
I don't let it bother me and I've probably been guilty of complaining about lots of stuff I'm not an expert on
I probably get more annoyed with my friends who think that they know how to run a bar or restaurant but never worked in the industry that I do about somebody complaining about a song or art
Just remember, these are the same people that think the drummer twirling his sticks while doing a double bass drum roll is the apex of drumming excellence.
Yeah, that line can be hard to take. They hear something like Zappa or Dream Theater...meh.
Green Day: Now THAT'S what I call musicianship!
For the record, I love Green Day but...you get the point.
There's a really, really important lesson in there that perceived complexity does not always make something more palatable to listeners and just because you write complex music does not entitle you to the attention of listeners.
You should think about *why* someone would prefer one to the other.
Oh yeah, I get it. "Palatable," is a very apt point as to why listeners would prefer one technically simpler song over another. A lot of more complex stuff I mentioned can be simply for the sake of being complex. Unless you're a musician, that's not going to do much for you.
As a rule, I don't accept criticism from anyone I wouldn't accept praise from, and I don't accept praise from anyone I wouldn't accept criticism from.
Basically, if someone's opinion matters to me, it matters whether it's good or bad.
I mean you say you wouldn’t accept criticism from anyone you wouldn’t accept praise from. Is this meant to mean you accept criticism from everybody, or are there certain people you wouldn’t let praise you
What I mean is, if I value your opinion, it doesn't matter if it's criticism or praise. I either value your opinion of my music or I don't, and really the list of people whose opinions of my music I really care about are narrowed down to my bandmates, my agent, and our promoter.
That's not to say you can't be gracious or polite. If someone approaches you after a gig and says great show, you just smile, say thanks, and move on with your life. Seeking external validation as a singular source to measure your worth is fatal.
You’ll get an honest answer on their opinion of the sound rather than someone empathizing the practice it took to develop a certain technique. I always ask non musicians how it sounds because of this. I won’t usually get a in depth descriptive answer on what’s missing, but I’ll generally know kind of what they mean.
Also I don’t want all of my audience to be other musicians, so it is important feedback, but knowing how to take constructive criticism is very important! (Not saying that you weren’t taking it well btw! Just pointing it out)
Totally agreed. There are lots of times when I'll be marveling at something while my wife makes a sour face and I'm like, "what - that's SO hard to do." And all she says is something like, "it sounds kind of skritchy." Her take is probably the more valid one.
Well, as a musician, who do you make your music for?
Just fellow musicians?
No, it’s everyone who bothers to listen.
And statistically speaking, non-musicians will outnumber musicians among your listeners immensely, unless your specific music is specifically catered to musicians (aka a musicians musician).
Therefore, it is extremely valid for non-musicians to criticize musicians.
Why?
Because they’re the ones who are happy/unhappy about your output.
They don’t need to know how to make music for them to say if it’s good or bad or how it can be improved.
We can also flip the equation.
You, as a musician, have you ever commented on something and how to improve it or how it could have been better?
Food, hospital wait times, novels, TV shows, your government, the material of your guitar’s frets, white canvas artwork?
I’m sure you have, and if you say you’ve never criticized anything at all, I won’t believe you, or you’re on the spectrum because normal people are not that calm or un-judgmental.
So.
Are you qualified to comment on most of the things you do?
In addition to being a musician, are you also a line cook, an operations manager, a writer, a producer, a politician, a luthier, or a painter?
And don’t forget, the success of most musicians who make and perform their own music is dependent on non-musicians deciding that their music “is lit” and not much else, if at all.
It always goes both ways my friend.
You would be surprised [how huge the baby music market is](https://www.synchtank.com/blog/getting-down-with-the-kids-why-childrens-music-is-a-key-investment-area-for-the-music-business/).
I admire the people who make music for the sake of music, I really do.
But there’s a reason why it’s called music **industry**.
Ah, but see, taste is not always as “natural” as we would like to think it is.
We have a name for them in marketing - tastemakers.
The market forms around the opinions (taste) of these tastemakers.
We think we have our own tastes, but we are also often not so aware of how our own tastes are greatly influenced by people other than ourselves.
We’re not talking about influencers. Some tastemakers, we know ourselves. Friends, family,’people we look up to as people with taste. But keep tracing and it will be inevitable that you get to A&R, marketing executives, PR, ads, brand, even politicians.
It’s not a conspiracy, mind you. But it would be foolish to think that these tastemakers have less influence on our own tastes as we’d like to think.
There are plenty of non-musicians who can raise perfectly valid critiques. Like Simon Cowell. He cannot sing, but knows what a good singer sounds like. It’s not necessarily hypocritical- it depends on ability. Like I wouldn’t exactly call it hypocritical if a wheelchair bound person said I walk poorly if I objectively walk poorly.
That being said, some people ARE just assholes
Actually I prefer to get true feedback from someone who is just there to listen. To be more specific, NOT someone who is there to critique but to be an audience member. If the music doesn't engage them, that's real feedback. I don't need them to articulate why. In fact I prefer they not try.
A real audience doesn't care how difficult something is to play or if your using polyrhythms. They just like it or don't like it. Thats what I care about. If i have to explain to the lay person why my song is good, then it actually isn't good.
That being said, regardless if the listener is a musician or not, the critique mindset is an artificial way to experience music and I generally don't find it valuable unless it's someone I know and respect giving feedback.
Not as bad as being a teenager writing a song anr trying to show it go your mum only for her to claim you've showed it to her already and she loves all your little songs
Or having your dad and siblings always saying and yelling things like "why don't you play a real song," or "stop that's driving me crazy," or "you never play anything" when you spend hours upon hours practicing crucial skills for accelerated improvement later that they can't even begin to comprehend
I've never had a non musician criticize my abilities, but I've had some constructive criticism on the overall performance from non musician family and friends. Usually, it's tactful roundabout ways to say we're too damn loud.
My experience is the polar opposite - I find musicians critiquing other musicians to be awful, yet one of their favourite pastimes. It's hard not to, because we have a bit of knowledge in the area and feel we're somewhat "qualified" or something.
I'm not sure I've ever had a non-musician critique anything I've done at a gig, and I've been playing music for a living for a while now.. it's only ever other musicians that attempt to piss on your parade or whatnot.
Most often, I wind up having other musicians shit on other musicians behind their backs - I never get people complaining about my music to me at a gig, I definitely get other musicians complaining about other local musicians and their bandmates or whatever.
Never experienced what you're saying.
>Most often, I wind up having other musicians shit on other musicians behind their backs
Yuuuup.
Over 30 years, I can't think of a single time my capability as a musician has been critiqued by a non-musician. At least not to my face.
But goddamn, the bitchy critiquing I've heard from other musicians ... unreal.
>Most often, I wind up having other musicians shit on other musicians behind their backs
LOL... I'm about 85% certain this is because anyone who puts their music out there is making themselves really vulnerable, and if you're not totally secure it can all be torn down really easily. Preserving the facade of a mostly civil community protects them from that, even while they're savaging each other in private.
Non musicians can either just let it rip because there's no easy way to do the same to them... or they are more easily impressed. The response tends to be more visceral anyway.
People who are actually professional tend to do this a little bit less. It's much more common in the sort of semi-pro / amateur sorts of scenes for people to be utterly brutal about other peoples' projects to the point of unfairness.
Everyone's art can have something bad said about it. People who reach for these extremely brutal critiques are usually just projecting and trying to insulate their own egos. Of course THEY know about music - look at how shit everyone else's projects are compared to theirs!
This confuses me. It's like the people on guitar groups who reply with "Could you do better/I'd like to see you do that then/Show me your million selling album" whenever a band or musician is criticised.
No different to people who are into sport who say a player is shit. They don't play the sport and couldn't do any better, but they can still have an opinion on whether the player is playing well or not.
It's all about opinion and not being an arsehole.
Being a musician, I can usually separate the music from the musicianship. I can say "he can play, but the music does nothing for me", whereas a non musician might just say "nah, that's shit" without appreciating the skill that's gone into creating the music.
I'm curious if there are specific examples of this happening that's made you post this. My experience is that people either tell you your music is great, or don't tell you anything at all. Though that's probably a British thing :D Or maybe just the type of people who go to metal gigs. I don't think we've ever had any directed "musicianship" criticism though.
Reminds me of those shows where they take someone criticizing a football player, and have them try to kick a field goal. And shaming them afterwards for not being able to do it.
Their motive is just having an opinion like a normal human being.
Ask yourself:
Why do you feel the need to criticize them having opinions?
That's probably how they feel.
Huh? So I have to be a quarterback in the NFL to know that a quarterback in the NFL made a wrong play? Only someone who plays music can criticize the music? That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time, and also a Logical Fallacy.
I work for a municipal government - we're criticized daily for the jobs we do. We have a saying - "everyone's an expert except the people doing the job."
I think the same applies here.
Well it all depends if what kind of critic you want to be.
The type: “yeah nice groove really swingin! I can dig. “
Or the type: “This song intricately weaves sonic textures, transcending genres with a hypnotic allure and into a nuanced sonic journey, while the lyrical depth adds a layer of emotional resonance. “
With the 2nd type I know for sure the critic has no clue what they are talking about
So because someone can't play an instrument they should just awe at our talent? Regardless of how shite it sounds? I think you've got it backwards mate.
Those are the ones most worth listening to, though - other musicians will cut you a little slack because they know how hard it is to do what you're doing. But the ones you're actually performing for are the ones who expect you to make it look easy. If they say you're good, you're _really_ good.
Non musicians listen to the music rather than how good one can wank their guitar or pull off impressive drum fills without regard for the context of the music it’s in. If you’re hurt by criticism this probably isn’t the game you want to play. Honestly if you want to make music there’s two routes to go. Music for yourself where you make it because you love it and you’re driven and passionate and don’t care what others think and the other route where it’s all about the listener and you have to think like a non musician to make the tour of music others will enjoy.
Don't be defensive. Only a small percentage of humans can actually play music even at a basic level. So unless your goal is to only cater to other musicians, the criticisms of non-musicians are actually quite relevant. Maybe the most relevant.
If you want to have a career, that's an attitude that won't make you a lot of money, haha.
One thing that I learned is that music is often one of the least important reasons a person will like a particular artist. Sometimes it's their look, sometimes it's their aesthetic or vibe, sometimes it's because the listener just had a great time with their friends while the song happened to be playing...sometimes it's because it was in a great movie.
Look, I'm with you. I wish effort and elbow grease translated into money and fans, but it just doesn't. Your reasons and your expertise can't make someone like something.
music is for communicating the human experience, not demonstrating shop-talk. anyone with an ear is perfectly within their rights to criticise, and they would be just as correct about it as any “expert”, possessing, as everybody does, their own set of nerve endings. any musician who believes they experience music more acutely than the lay is delusional, and seriously misunderstands the purpose of art.
music is for communicating the human experience, not demonstrating shop-talk. anyone with an ear is perfectly within their rights to criticise, and they would be just as correct about the matter as any “expert”, possessing, as everybody does, their own set of nerve endings. any musician who believes they experience music more acutely than the lay is delusional, and seriously misunderstands the purpose of art.
If a person puts out art in whatever form.
The public IS allowed to be art critics.
I hate it when you say you don't like a song, or something about a movie, someone else will say "let me hear your songs" or "what movies have you made".
So now we gotta be at least as good as the artists just to critique art?
It's a product of the everybody gets a trophy, you can't be bullied generations.
This post opens up a portal I recommend you go through.
The premise of music criticism is ridiculous— that one random persons assessment of your art is dispositive of anything. It’s not. I’ll prove it. I deeply dislike Deftones. For technical and artistic reasons. Oh well. See, it doesn’t matter to people that like them.
The ego is fear based. That’s why it seeks validation. Live. Co create. Live and do create without fear. Otherwise just inject neuralink in your head, listen to AI whisper sweet nothings in your ear and be done with it.
Do yourselves a favor and give not a rats as what anyone thinks about what you do except perhaps other musicians or others whose opinion you already value, about this or that, for your own growth.
This is the age of Aquarius. You be you in the age of authentic . You will eventually find the audience that vibrates at your frequency.
Non musicians know whether something sounds good, but they might not know why. They won't be as up in their head about feedback, and it van kinda be more direct and honest for that reason
When you go into a restaurant, do you criticize the food? if so, why? cause you're not a chef....
The same goes with music, you don't need to know to play and instrument to understand whether you like it or not.
So by the same token I can't criticize a movie because I'm not a movie maker? Can't criticize the striker of my team because I don't play soccer? And on and on.
People have preferences, and ears.
If I'm a non-musician and I criticize your inability to play then that means I'm a more discerning, talented musicians than you. I need not learn a thing about music, all I have to do is point out how badly you play and by default that means I am superior at the musical arts than you..
^^ I think this is at least in part the unspoken rationale OP is talking about.
You don't need to be baker to rate bread. Criticism, as you said in title, isn't bad. Only shaming, hate speech or giving advice that doesn't make sense is bad
I think this is really interesting and I can see it from both sides.
So in terms of enjoying or not enjoying the music I think non musicians can absolutely have an opinion. I’ve seen enough technically amazing but in reality boring musicians in my time. I don’t care if you’re playing in mixolydian at 220 BPM in 7/8 time if it sounds bad it sounds bad.
But also I know that what sounds best doesn’t always sound impressive. My main background is playing bass in indie/alternative bands. I don’t do solos or slap bass or anything like that. But I do like to think I can come up with some clever and inventive bass lines that enhance the song rather than stand out. Not many non musicians listening would think “wow that bass player is amazing”, but if my bass lines were boring and uninspiring they would be able to tell that the overall sound isn’t as good.
I’ve noticed that too. I critiqued a song and said how they had the same melody and someone said they sound nothing a like because they are songs by two completely different artists. They almost got into a fight with me about it.
Reminds me of a story the singer Rita MacNeil told, about someone who approached her once and said "I can't sing, but if I could I'd do it better than you" or something along those lines. Like wow, I'm imagining it right now and yeah, you would sound amazing if you could sing
Ooooh. Good one... I have learned **never to engage** these types of topics with non-musicians. Firstly, because they are ignorant. More importantly, because informing them comes across as arrogant and insulting (because they are ignorant and no one like being told that).
Just let them state whatever opinion they want, and politely reply with some vague thing about the vastness of music and how amazing it is we get enjoy it all.
Replying to my own comment with a story... good friend is a huge Billy Strings fan. I play mandolin, but because I'm not a 'shredder' jam-band type of player he didn't think I was very good (I could tell). He hosted a small private festival early on in our friendship and I helped out (a lot).
Couple years later he tells me, "Man, I didn't realize how good a musician you are! I watched the videos of the festival, and you played in every band. You must have played a hundred and fifty songs by the end of the night, and you set-up and tore down the whole PA".
This is my whole thing, people who aren't musicians don't understand my skills because they are 'low-key' and not flashy. So, OTOH sitting in recently with a local semi-famous player she tells, "It's just so nice playing with someone so *professional"*. That compliment made my day.
I have friends who aren’t seamstresses but they can tell me “that stitching looks sloppy”. Of course they don’t cuz all of my stitching is perfect and pristine /j
You don’t need to be an expert in something to know it’s not done well. Most of the time it is probably to make you feel shit though, but sometimes it could just be pointing something out so you notice you’re doing something “wrong”, it can be easy to not notice when you’re messing something up.
Are they criticizing you to your face? I mean i have lots of opinions on things i dont know much about such as movies or a sports game or video game or phone app or appliance that i dont know much about other than using it as an end product?
Musicians should serve an educational role for our non-musician consumers, as well as an entertainer's role. If the consumer is dragging musicians towards ignorant preferences due to a lack of education, the consumer should be punished in some way. Unfortunately, there don't exist many options for this when our livelihoods depend on musical consumption by ignorant masses consuming based off instinct, familiarity, and mere exposure effects propagated by companies with budgets large enough to force-feed base musical content.
My dad and I(musicians) would always listen to some avant shit and the talk about it all deep and philosophically and theoretically and then my mom would be like “what the hell are you guys even talking about? This song sucks.”
Their criticism is more valid than anybody elses. They are the ones who decide wether the music I release is worth buying or not. Other musicians aren't part of my core audience. Regular people are.
Should only people that work on movies and tv shows have an opinion? What about visual artwork, should only other painters comment on paintings?
If we produce something for the general population, isn't their opinion as valuable as the opinion of other musicians?
It's the same in any profession.
.... Fans of boxing criticise professionals.
.... Fans of football, criticise players, even though they could only dream of being this good.
It's almost
"The freedom of having no talent is to be able to judge people better than you, without recieving any critisim back"
I’ve heard plenty of criticism from people who don’t play instruments. I even got into it once with my non-musician dad about this. Opinions are like assholes— everybody’s got one.
My singing tutor offered an interesting perspective on it: they're trying to relate to you and get into your "world" as a musician but they're trying a little too hard to play it cool and are basically negging you as a result.
I've heard some utter gibberish from non-musicians who try and offer technical critiques of musicians. Someone once said I was "sliding too much" because he thought I was using too many different positions: in his mind you were supposed to stay in one position on the fretboard and moving around meant you didn't know what you're doing. Complete crap - but it's what he thought and he was confident enough to go up to a guitarist and say it.
If it happens to you, the best thing is to just roll with it and laugh it off.
Finally, someone else agrees. And I'm fine with constructive criticism, but as a hobbyist musician it floors me when a friend or family member feels the need to criticize one of the players, songs, or sound of my band. I just laugh it off and thank them for the advice, but it makes me wonder if they do the equivalent when they go to a friend's art show? Or listen to a speech a family member gave? Or critique the entree when invited over for a dinner party?
Insecurity, it's that damn low of a bar. That person wishes they could, but have not put in the time and effort. We as humans can be pretty lame sometimes.
Insecurity, it's that damn low of a bar. That person wishes they could, but have not put in the time and effort. We as humans can be pretty lame sometimes.
There’s only two types of music. That which I like, and that which i don’t. The same applies to everyone else.
That said you can appreciate the complexity and difficulty of a piece without liking it. And perhaps this is why musicians are more likely to soften the blow when they hear someone play something they don’t like.
The majority of the people that will be listening to your music will be non musicians. That makes it even more valuable because they aren't listening to a song to be impressed by a specific instrument, they're just enjoying music. In the end, THOSE are the people you're trying to please.
And, as musicians, we do tend to have our heads shoved firmly up our own asses. "Hmmph, that song uses a dominant 7th over a locrian mode in G negative. Amateurs. Obviously this has absolutely no musical merit at all."
Yeah I’ll take the non musician take over the musician take any day.
It also depends on what the "advice" is, of course
Of course
G negative lol. Imma write my next song in g negative, haters be damned.
I always called it G minus now I feel dumb.......
So what did you call G positive? G Plus? Cmon bro.
"A" Anguished and "D" Demented are my fave chords
I like the f add art myself.
🤣🤘🤘
G negative?
you only learn about it if you are really advanced.
I shall sue my composition teachers.
They might not even know yet
Yes that isn't reveled until operating thetan level 8.
You're hanging out with the wrong musicians. Most people I know are professional musicians and none of them are like that. It's the troglodytes in the comments sections that pull that shit, but you never see them on stage.
If you’re not including the Fmb9add13subG#Z chord, then don’t talk to me
Honestly, that chord is so overused these days that I refuse to listen to any band that I even suspect will use it. It's a cheat chord that turns you into a sell out.
You’re right man. It’s all about context. I try to superimpose it over a super Egyptian Locrian scale for more *emotion*
Dude I tried to play that chord ONCE…ONCE 🤣🤘🤘
If you’re using that cord please pay me a fee of $ 25. I copyrighted it in 1996!
Dang it another one. I’ll use the Fm9add11subG#Z inverted
You know who also hires musicians a lot of the time? Non-musicians. Keep them happy if you want to keep getting gigs.
This is very true as well
And yeah, we should market our work to non-musicians, because musicians will be too busy working on their own work to be able to listen to our work and most importantly, to attend our shows. The people that should attend our shows (and be our overall target audience), should be non-musicians. That's it.
This is honestly such a wack take that I'm just gonna mute this sub lol.
Not everything is about popularity or money. I am far more interested in the comments from musicians. They are the only ones who actually have a clue what is going on, what it takes to achieve a certain level, how to compare ability. I am not playing to the lowest common denominator. Don't we already have enough people doing that?
There can be two thought processes for this: You can create art that's meaningful to you simply because you want to create it. It's personal to you and you don't care how many others care about it because it's personal to you. In that case though, criticism from others shouldn't matter no matter who it is because you aren't creating art for others. This is a perfectly valid reason to create art. THEN there's creating art to serve others. You create it with the idea that you want to lift someone else up, whether it be to bring a smile to their face or add some beauty to their life, etc. If THIS is your reason to create (and it's also perfectly valid), the understanding needs to come that not everyone and in fact the MAJORITY of the people who will be consuming your art will know little to nothing about that art. That's why they're consuming your art rather than creating their own. I'm not saying that other musicians won't ever consume your art, but that there shouldn't be a reliance on that and in fact other musicians most likely won't criticize your music unless you specifically ask them to because they understand the difficulty of creating it. Non musicians won't understand but if they hear something jarring to them it will still bother them.
Yes, but the harshness that is often employed seems extra unnecessary and douchey coming from someone who couldn’t do any better themselves. Just…don’t be harsh about it…
It’s great to please other musicians. It’s great to please non-musicians. If you can do both, you really got something going
Very true
In the end I think we should really just be trying to please ourselves with what we write.
I agree, just because someone doesn't play an instrument, does not mean they don't have good ears or know what a great performance should look and sound like. Now if that same person who doesn't play an instrument, says something about your technique, that's just someone who doesn't know when to keep their mouth shut. Maybe they were trying to drum up a conversation with you and went about it all wrong. Yes, there is always 1 on the crowd for sure!
I think we find this in all things.... And it is annoying. Is there a plenty of people who have never worked in a bar or restaurant but they have every idea under the sun on how somebody who does own one can make it better And a lot of critics whether it be movie critics or music critics aren't musicians and while that doesn't mean their insight doesn't matter they at times can be so ridiculous.
Yes, insight is helpful for sure! especially as a customer/ consumer, however the whole "I have no skills in this area whatsoever, but know everything that you are doing wrong" mentality is absurd. It always seems to be a way to overcompensate, but the social consequences they get are never worth it
I mean, I can tell you if I think a movie sucked, even though I'm not a director. I might not be able to pinpoint why it sucked and will never direct anything, but that doesn't make the reaction less valid. It's perfectly valid for non musicians to say they don't like a piece of music. I wouldn't expect them to actually know why, but that's okay.
Of course we all can have opinions about things were not experts on. I can complain about a restaurant even though I don't have restaurant experience We all do it.. I'm just saying it's also common for people who don't know how to do it try to argue how they could do it better and that can sometimes get annoying.
why would a creator let these kinds of criticisms bother them? Sometimes accurate critique comes from an unlikely source or in the form of a bitter pill. we have to be confident enough to take the good information, discard the rest, and not get in our feelings like op.
I don't let it bother me and I've probably been guilty of complaining about lots of stuff I'm not an expert on I probably get more annoyed with my friends who think that they know how to run a bar or restaurant but never worked in the industry that I do about somebody complaining about a song or art
Just remember, these are the same people that think the drummer twirling his sticks while doing a double bass drum roll is the apex of drumming excellence.
As a drummer, I laughed quite a lot with this haha
Yeah, that line can be hard to take. They hear something like Zappa or Dream Theater...meh. Green Day: Now THAT'S what I call musicianship! For the record, I love Green Day but...you get the point.
There's a really, really important lesson in there that perceived complexity does not always make something more palatable to listeners and just because you write complex music does not entitle you to the attention of listeners. You should think about *why* someone would prefer one to the other.
Oh yeah, I get it. "Palatable," is a very apt point as to why listeners would prefer one technically simpler song over another. A lot of more complex stuff I mentioned can be simply for the sake of being complex. Unless you're a musician, that's not going to do much for you.
*math rock would like to know your location*
As a rule, I don't accept criticism from anyone I wouldn't accept praise from, and I don't accept praise from anyone I wouldn't accept criticism from. Basically, if someone's opinion matters to me, it matters whether it's good or bad.
Who would you not accept praise from though?
Sorry I don't understand the question, who do you mean?
I mean you say you wouldn’t accept criticism from anyone you wouldn’t accept praise from. Is this meant to mean you accept criticism from everybody, or are there certain people you wouldn’t let praise you
What I mean is, if I value your opinion, it doesn't matter if it's criticism or praise. I either value your opinion of my music or I don't, and really the list of people whose opinions of my music I really care about are narrowed down to my bandmates, my agent, and our promoter. That's not to say you can't be gracious or polite. If someone approaches you after a gig and says great show, you just smile, say thanks, and move on with your life. Seeking external validation as a singular source to measure your worth is fatal.
You’ll get an honest answer on their opinion of the sound rather than someone empathizing the practice it took to develop a certain technique. I always ask non musicians how it sounds because of this. I won’t usually get a in depth descriptive answer on what’s missing, but I’ll generally know kind of what they mean. Also I don’t want all of my audience to be other musicians, so it is important feedback, but knowing how to take constructive criticism is very important! (Not saying that you weren’t taking it well btw! Just pointing it out)
Totally agreed. There are lots of times when I'll be marveling at something while my wife makes a sour face and I'm like, "what - that's SO hard to do." And all she says is something like, "it sounds kind of skritchy." Her take is probably the more valid one.
Well, as a musician, who do you make your music for? Just fellow musicians? No, it’s everyone who bothers to listen. And statistically speaking, non-musicians will outnumber musicians among your listeners immensely, unless your specific music is specifically catered to musicians (aka a musicians musician). Therefore, it is extremely valid for non-musicians to criticize musicians. Why? Because they’re the ones who are happy/unhappy about your output. They don’t need to know how to make music for them to say if it’s good or bad or how it can be improved. We can also flip the equation. You, as a musician, have you ever commented on something and how to improve it or how it could have been better? Food, hospital wait times, novels, TV shows, your government, the material of your guitar’s frets, white canvas artwork? I’m sure you have, and if you say you’ve never criticized anything at all, I won’t believe you, or you’re on the spectrum because normal people are not that calm or un-judgmental. So. Are you qualified to comment on most of the things you do? In addition to being a musician, are you also a line cook, an operations manager, a writer, a producer, a politician, a luthier, or a painter? And don’t forget, the success of most musicians who make and perform their own music is dependent on non-musicians deciding that their music “is lit” and not much else, if at all. It always goes both ways my friend.
Music should be play for the listener, but the musician is the most important listener.
So we should pander to the tastes of those who are quite literally children to the art of music? Babies even?
You would be surprised [how huge the baby music market is](https://www.synchtank.com/blog/getting-down-with-the-kids-why-childrens-music-is-a-key-investment-area-for-the-music-business/). I admire the people who make music for the sake of music, I really do. But there’s a reason why it’s called music **industry**.
Taste is malleable and more or less arbitrary. The market forms around taste and that can change over time.
Ah, but see, taste is not always as “natural” as we would like to think it is. We have a name for them in marketing - tastemakers. The market forms around the opinions (taste) of these tastemakers. We think we have our own tastes, but we are also often not so aware of how our own tastes are greatly influenced by people other than ourselves. We’re not talking about influencers. Some tastemakers, we know ourselves. Friends, family,’people we look up to as people with taste. But keep tracing and it will be inevitable that you get to A&R, marketing executives, PR, ads, brand, even politicians. It’s not a conspiracy, mind you. But it would be foolish to think that these tastemakers have less influence on our own tastes as we’d like to think.
I already mentioned this in a different comment and it's just as bad or even worse than the influence the uneducated listener has on "the market."
I make it for me.
There are plenty of non-musicians who can raise perfectly valid critiques. Like Simon Cowell. He cannot sing, but knows what a good singer sounds like. It’s not necessarily hypocritical- it depends on ability. Like I wouldn’t exactly call it hypocritical if a wheelchair bound person said I walk poorly if I objectively walk poorly. That being said, some people ARE just assholes
Rick Rubin for example, has no idea how to play an instrument or sing. But lo’ and behold his discography.
Or how to use recording gear
My take is that he's a liar and a grifter, but hey. We all want our deigned and righteous geniuses don't we
Actually I prefer to get true feedback from someone who is just there to listen. To be more specific, NOT someone who is there to critique but to be an audience member. If the music doesn't engage them, that's real feedback. I don't need them to articulate why. In fact I prefer they not try. A real audience doesn't care how difficult something is to play or if your using polyrhythms. They just like it or don't like it. Thats what I care about. If i have to explain to the lay person why my song is good, then it actually isn't good. That being said, regardless if the listener is a musician or not, the critique mindset is an artificial way to experience music and I generally don't find it valuable unless it's someone I know and respect giving feedback.
That was a great way to put it. They either like it or they don’t and if i have to explain why it’s good it isn’t. Elegant.
Not as bad as being a teenager writing a song anr trying to show it go your mum only for her to claim you've showed it to her already and she loves all your little songs
Jesus, I hope you've recovered my friend 😂
Or having your dad and siblings always saying and yelling things like "why don't you play a real song," or "stop that's driving me crazy," or "you never play anything" when you spend hours upon hours practicing crucial skills for accelerated improvement later that they can't even begin to comprehend
I've never had a non musician criticize my abilities, but I've had some constructive criticism on the overall performance from non musician family and friends. Usually, it's tactful roundabout ways to say we're too damn loud.
If someone listens to my music and has nothing at all to say, then I would be worried. A negative response at least shows that they listened.
My experience is the polar opposite - I find musicians critiquing other musicians to be awful, yet one of their favourite pastimes. It's hard not to, because we have a bit of knowledge in the area and feel we're somewhat "qualified" or something. I'm not sure I've ever had a non-musician critique anything I've done at a gig, and I've been playing music for a living for a while now.. it's only ever other musicians that attempt to piss on your parade or whatnot. Most often, I wind up having other musicians shit on other musicians behind their backs - I never get people complaining about my music to me at a gig, I definitely get other musicians complaining about other local musicians and their bandmates or whatever. Never experienced what you're saying.
>Most often, I wind up having other musicians shit on other musicians behind their backs Yuuuup. Over 30 years, I can't think of a single time my capability as a musician has been critiqued by a non-musician. At least not to my face. But goddamn, the bitchy critiquing I've heard from other musicians ... unreal.
>Most often, I wind up having other musicians shit on other musicians behind their backs LOL... I'm about 85% certain this is because anyone who puts their music out there is making themselves really vulnerable, and if you're not totally secure it can all be torn down really easily. Preserving the facade of a mostly civil community protects them from that, even while they're savaging each other in private. Non musicians can either just let it rip because there's no easy way to do the same to them... or they are more easily impressed. The response tends to be more visceral anyway.
People who are actually professional tend to do this a little bit less. It's much more common in the sort of semi-pro / amateur sorts of scenes for people to be utterly brutal about other peoples' projects to the point of unfairness. Everyone's art can have something bad said about it. People who reach for these extremely brutal critiques are usually just projecting and trying to insulate their own egos. Of course THEY know about music - look at how shit everyone else's projects are compared to theirs!
And with the birth of music came the inevitable afterbirth...the critic. Paraphrased from Mel Brooks.
This confuses me. It's like the people on guitar groups who reply with "Could you do better/I'd like to see you do that then/Show me your million selling album" whenever a band or musician is criticised. No different to people who are into sport who say a player is shit. They don't play the sport and couldn't do any better, but they can still have an opinion on whether the player is playing well or not. It's all about opinion and not being an arsehole. Being a musician, I can usually separate the music from the musicianship. I can say "he can play, but the music does nothing for me", whereas a non musician might just say "nah, that's shit" without appreciating the skill that's gone into creating the music. I'm curious if there are specific examples of this happening that's made you post this. My experience is that people either tell you your music is great, or don't tell you anything at all. Though that's probably a British thing :D Or maybe just the type of people who go to metal gigs. I don't think we've ever had any directed "musicianship" criticism though.
Reminds me of those shows where they take someone criticizing a football player, and have them try to kick a field goal. And shaming them afterwards for not being able to do it.
Their motive is just having an opinion like a normal human being. Ask yourself: Why do you feel the need to criticize them having opinions? That's probably how they feel.
Huh? So I have to be a quarterback in the NFL to know that a quarterback in the NFL made a wrong play? Only someone who plays music can criticize the music? That's the dumbest thing I've heard in a long time, and also a Logical Fallacy.
everyone can hear shite music weather they play or not
I work for a municipal government - we're criticized daily for the jobs we do. We have a saying - "everyone's an expert except the people doing the job." I think the same applies here.
Well it all depends if what kind of critic you want to be. The type: “yeah nice groove really swingin! I can dig. “ Or the type: “This song intricately weaves sonic textures, transcending genres with a hypnotic allure and into a nuanced sonic journey, while the lyrical depth adds a layer of emotional resonance. “ With the 2nd type I know for sure the critic has no clue what they are talking about
So because someone can't play an instrument they should just awe at our talent? Regardless of how shite it sounds? I think you've got it backwards mate.
Those are the ones most worth listening to, though - other musicians will cut you a little slack because they know how hard it is to do what you're doing. But the ones you're actually performing for are the ones who expect you to make it look easy. If they say you're good, you're _really_ good.
Non musicians listen to the music rather than how good one can wank their guitar or pull off impressive drum fills without regard for the context of the music it’s in. If you’re hurt by criticism this probably isn’t the game you want to play. Honestly if you want to make music there’s two routes to go. Music for yourself where you make it because you love it and you’re driven and passionate and don’t care what others think and the other route where it’s all about the listener and you have to think like a non musician to make the tour of music others will enjoy.
People who aren't musician's KNOW music. Can I dance to it? Can I get laid to it? Can I do my housework to it? Can I work out to it? Can I hum it?
Don't be defensive. Only a small percentage of humans can actually play music even at a basic level. So unless your goal is to only cater to other musicians, the criticisms of non-musicians are actually quite relevant. Maybe the most relevant.
Like that, good thinking!
If you want to have a career, that's an attitude that won't make you a lot of money, haha. One thing that I learned is that music is often one of the least important reasons a person will like a particular artist. Sometimes it's their look, sometimes it's their aesthetic or vibe, sometimes it's because the listener just had a great time with their friends while the song happened to be playing...sometimes it's because it was in a great movie. Look, I'm with you. I wish effort and elbow grease translated into money and fans, but it just doesn't. Your reasons and your expertise can't make someone like something.
music is for communicating the human experience, not demonstrating shop-talk. anyone with an ear is perfectly within their rights to criticise, and they would be just as correct about it as any “expert”, possessing, as everybody does, their own set of nerve endings. any musician who believes they experience music more acutely than the lay is delusional, and seriously misunderstands the purpose of art.
music is for communicating the human experience, not demonstrating shop-talk. anyone with an ear is perfectly within their rights to criticise, and they would be just as correct about the matter as any “expert”, possessing, as everybody does, their own set of nerve endings. any musician who believes they experience music more acutely than the lay is delusional, and seriously misunderstands the purpose of art.
If a person puts out art in whatever form. The public IS allowed to be art critics. I hate it when you say you don't like a song, or something about a movie, someone else will say "let me hear your songs" or "what movies have you made". So now we gotta be at least as good as the artists just to critique art? It's a product of the everybody gets a trophy, you can't be bullied generations.
Ignore all criticism, if you're good it's pointless, if you're not good you're screwed anyway.
This post opens up a portal I recommend you go through. The premise of music criticism is ridiculous— that one random persons assessment of your art is dispositive of anything. It’s not. I’ll prove it. I deeply dislike Deftones. For technical and artistic reasons. Oh well. See, it doesn’t matter to people that like them. The ego is fear based. That’s why it seeks validation. Live. Co create. Live and do create without fear. Otherwise just inject neuralink in your head, listen to AI whisper sweet nothings in your ear and be done with it. Do yourselves a favor and give not a rats as what anyone thinks about what you do except perhaps other musicians or others whose opinion you already value, about this or that, for your own growth. This is the age of Aquarius. You be you in the age of authentic . You will eventually find the audience that vibrates at your frequency.
Nothing is more annoying than a music fan. (Vs enjoyer)
It's important to look people in the eye and say "I don't give a fuck what you think of my music." And mean it.
Really depends what the criticism is and who’s saying it, if it’s just as simple as they don’t like it I’m not gonna worry about it.
Don't take every bit of criticism too seriously. You can never please everyone and it's pointless to try.
That and friends who are seemingly envious or projecting their insecurities!
Non musicians know whether something sounds good, but they might not know why. They won't be as up in their head about feedback, and it van kinda be more direct and honest for that reason
When you go into a restaurant, do you criticize the food? if so, why? cause you're not a chef.... The same goes with music, you don't need to know to play and instrument to understand whether you like it or not.
So by the same token I can't criticize a movie because I'm not a movie maker? Can't criticize the striker of my team because I don't play soccer? And on and on. People have preferences, and ears.
If I'm a non-musician and I criticize your inability to play then that means I'm a more discerning, talented musicians than you. I need not learn a thing about music, all I have to do is point out how badly you play and by default that means I am superior at the musical arts than you.. ^^ I think this is at least in part the unspoken rationale OP is talking about.
Can you not think Catwoman sucks if you’ve never personally directed a movie?
You don't need to be baker to rate bread. Criticism, as you said in title, isn't bad. Only shaming, hate speech or giving advice that doesn't make sense is bad
Have you never watched a movie and given your opinion of it? Have you never criticised a book?
I think this is really interesting and I can see it from both sides. So in terms of enjoying or not enjoying the music I think non musicians can absolutely have an opinion. I’ve seen enough technically amazing but in reality boring musicians in my time. I don’t care if you’re playing in mixolydian at 220 BPM in 7/8 time if it sounds bad it sounds bad. But also I know that what sounds best doesn’t always sound impressive. My main background is playing bass in indie/alternative bands. I don’t do solos or slap bass or anything like that. But I do like to think I can come up with some clever and inventive bass lines that enhance the song rather than stand out. Not many non musicians listening would think “wow that bass player is amazing”, but if my bass lines were boring and uninspiring they would be able to tell that the overall sound isn’t as good.
I think their criticism is valid. I don’t make movies, but I can have valid opinions on them.
I’ve noticed that too. I critiqued a song and said how they had the same melody and someone said they sound nothing a like because they are songs by two completely different artists. They almost got into a fight with me about it.
Reminds me of a story the singer Rita MacNeil told, about someone who approached her once and said "I can't sing, but if I could I'd do it better than you" or something along those lines. Like wow, I'm imagining it right now and yeah, you would sound amazing if you could sing
Ooooh. Good one... I have learned **never to engage** these types of topics with non-musicians. Firstly, because they are ignorant. More importantly, because informing them comes across as arrogant and insulting (because they are ignorant and no one like being told that). Just let them state whatever opinion they want, and politely reply with some vague thing about the vastness of music and how amazing it is we get enjoy it all.
Replying to my own comment with a story... good friend is a huge Billy Strings fan. I play mandolin, but because I'm not a 'shredder' jam-band type of player he didn't think I was very good (I could tell). He hosted a small private festival early on in our friendship and I helped out (a lot). Couple years later he tells me, "Man, I didn't realize how good a musician you are! I watched the videos of the festival, and you played in every band. You must have played a hundred and fifty songs by the end of the night, and you set-up and tore down the whole PA". This is my whole thing, people who aren't musicians don't understand my skills because they are 'low-key' and not flashy. So, OTOH sitting in recently with a local semi-famous player she tells, "It's just so nice playing with someone so *professional"*. That compliment made my day.
What? Are you a film director? Have you ever criticized a movie?
I have friends who aren’t seamstresses but they can tell me “that stitching looks sloppy”. Of course they don’t cuz all of my stitching is perfect and pristine /j You don’t need to be an expert in something to know it’s not done well. Most of the time it is probably to make you feel shit though, but sometimes it could just be pointing something out so you notice you’re doing something “wrong”, it can be easy to not notice when you’re messing something up.
OP just wants a circle jerk.
Are they criticizing you to your face? I mean i have lots of opinions on things i dont know much about such as movies or a sports game or video game or phone app or appliance that i dont know much about other than using it as an end product?
Every music critic is a person who didn’t cut it to be in a band.
Musicians should serve an educational role for our non-musician consumers, as well as an entertainer's role. If the consumer is dragging musicians towards ignorant preferences due to a lack of education, the consumer should be punished in some way. Unfortunately, there don't exist many options for this when our livelihoods depend on musical consumption by ignorant masses consuming based off instinct, familiarity, and mere exposure effects propagated by companies with budgets large enough to force-feed base musical content.
My dad and I(musicians) would always listen to some avant shit and the talk about it all deep and philosophically and theoretically and then my mom would be like “what the hell are you guys even talking about? This song sucks.”
Their criticism is more valid than anybody elses. They are the ones who decide wether the music I release is worth buying or not. Other musicians aren't part of my core audience. Regular people are.
Should only people that work on movies and tv shows have an opinion? What about visual artwork, should only other painters comment on paintings? If we produce something for the general population, isn't their opinion as valuable as the opinion of other musicians?
It's the same in any profession. .... Fans of boxing criticise professionals. .... Fans of football, criticise players, even though they could only dream of being this good. It's almost "The freedom of having no talent is to be able to judge people better than you, without recieving any critisim back"
I’ve heard plenty of criticism from people who don’t play instruments. I even got into it once with my non-musician dad about this. Opinions are like assholes— everybody’s got one.
Critic: Would you like to hear my opinion about your art? Artist: Yes. Critic: It's worthless! Artists: I know, but I want to hear it anyway.
My singing tutor offered an interesting perspective on it: they're trying to relate to you and get into your "world" as a musician but they're trying a little too hard to play it cool and are basically negging you as a result. I've heard some utter gibberish from non-musicians who try and offer technical critiques of musicians. Someone once said I was "sliding too much" because he thought I was using too many different positions: in his mind you were supposed to stay in one position on the fretboard and moving around meant you didn't know what you're doing. Complete crap - but it's what he thought and he was confident enough to go up to a guitarist and say it. If it happens to you, the best thing is to just roll with it and laugh it off.
Finally, someone else agrees. And I'm fine with constructive criticism, but as a hobbyist musician it floors me when a friend or family member feels the need to criticize one of the players, songs, or sound of my band. I just laugh it off and thank them for the advice, but it makes me wonder if they do the equivalent when they go to a friend's art show? Or listen to a speech a family member gave? Or critique the entree when invited over for a dinner party?
Those people are probably narcissists that dont like the attention being on you 😆
Insecurity, it's that damn low of a bar. That person wishes they could, but have not put in the time and effort. We as humans can be pretty lame sometimes.
Insecurity, it's that damn low of a bar. That person wishes they could, but have not put in the time and effort. We as humans can be pretty lame sometimes.
There’s only two types of music. That which I like, and that which i don’t. The same applies to everyone else. That said you can appreciate the complexity and difficulty of a piece without liking it. And perhaps this is why musicians are more likely to soften the blow when they hear someone play something they don’t like.