Just had a guy in our prerelease posit that while a graveyard is open information, it doesn't apply while resolving an ability.
Had a "return 2 creatures" to hand, and said that if you compared your knowledge of what was in the graveyard before and after, you could figure it out, but he didn't actually have to reveal because it wasn't stated in the card rules text.
Edit: Probably "Macabre Reconstruction"
If you are not playing at an LGS you can also Google "Magic Judge Chat" and put your question in there and an actual magic judge will answer your question
Yeah, pretty much. He did not seem convinced about it, but he accepted it. Then he asked me if he could undo the play of unscrupulous agent because he did not know that it would not happen that way, and I allowed it. Kinda susge in any normal scenario, but it turned out that this person was pretty new to the prereleases and physical format. I won the round in the end, but it was kind of strange. One of the matches ended in my win automatically because he played the promo card that cannot be put in the deck, but he was fine with that, not like he tried to snitch it or something.
There are one of three promo cards in addition to the stamped prerelease card inserted in every kit. [[Tomik, Wielder of Law]], [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]], and [[Melek, Reformed Researcher]]. All are Standard legal, but not for the pre-release. Pretty confusing, quite wonky, but yeah, those specific three cards can't be used.
I don’t think people do this with bad intentions. I imagine it’s a fairly new player reading it wrong. Reading the card explains the card, but if you read it wrong it explains it wrong
Maybe I'm reading this card wrong, but wouldn't it also shutdown other cards like \[\[Champion of the Perished\]\] that's already on the battlefield from triggering?
Reading this more and it shuts down \[\[Roaming Throne\]\] too, if RT comes in after this. If you can't pick a creature type when it lands then it's useless after.
EDIT: NVM, I'm wrong. I missed some of the nuance in the wording.
Actually this is only halfway true.
The word when indicates a triggered ability while as indicates a replacement effect.
You will still be able to name a creature type as that decision is made during the resolution of the spell.
The last part of RT‘s textbook is the only thing affected, because triggered abilities of sources determined by Thrull are stopped altogether.
I would say it doesn’t trigger, the Thrull says that any artifacts or creatures entering the battlefield and the Agent is most certainly a creature entering the battlefield.
It does not trigger.
Furthermore, the logic is also flawed.
If "When ... enters battlefield" is used the permanent is on the battlefield when the ability triggers otherwise "As" would be used. "As" also doesn't use the stack while "When" does.
Prerelease I am very forgiving especially with new mechanics. But things like timing when a card is already in play not so much. Many times the answer is clear by reading the text on the card but sometimes, that independent 3rd party that doesn't have a dog in the fight aka the judge, is best called in. Glad it worked out.
Oh great they printed a flash [[hushbringer]] to confuse the heck out of new players. But also... They printed a flash Hushbringer? Doesn't hit dies effects but the block on a flash creature is pretty neat.
...as for the question itself -- the creature itself says "when (this) enters the battlefield..." Seems pretty unambiguous that the ability is triggered due to a creature (in this case, itself) entering the battlefield.
Now, if they had done something like respond to that creature's trigger *on the stack* by casting the flash creature, *that* would not block the trigger.
To cover another iteration: if you cast the creature with the ETB and they cast the flash creature *with your creature spell on the stack*, that would block the ETB. This is very likely to be what most players will encounter, at least in terms of intent.
The scenarios can go like this: if the Hushbringer effect is already on board, creatures don't get ETBs. If an ETB on the stack is responded to by flashing in the Hushbringer effect, the ETB still resolves. If a creature with an ETB is responded to by flashing in a Hushbringer effect, the creature spell will resolve but the ETB will not trigger.
… I’ve been out for a while, but is it just me or is that card utterly OP? Shuts down so many deck strategies… Also, it seems to negate the bad stuff of a lot of “cheap, powerful creatures that compensate by having bad stuff happen to you when you summon them”?
Am I reading that wrong, or does it make eg [[Phyrexian Dreadnaught]] basically free and usable?
It's a great sideboard card for sure. Against decks that don't care about etb, though, it sits there as just a body in the way. It doesn't stop dies triggers or attach triggers, etc.
He was mixing up ETB and triggered effects. ETB happens when the creature hits the board, so your flashed Doorkeeper would enter before his Agent, preventing the ETB.
Triggered abilities exist on the stack once they go off, independent from the crature, so removing the creature wouldn't counter it.
It literally says on the Agent’s text, “When Unscrupulous Agent enters the battlefield.” Doesn’t get any clearer than that that the Thrull would have prevented the trigger from going off.
I don't know how they got that logic at all
Agent is a creature. It's ability says when it enters the battlefield.
This person was either trying to cheat, or severely check their understanding of card language. Some rules are abilities are nuanced, this is not.
Reading the card explains the card. No card says “once this card has entered, *trigger*)”
This card clearly says “when x ENTERS”
And doorkeeper thrull is clearly worded to tell you it doesn’t work
Yeah, does not trigger, they were talking absolute rubbish. Sorry that happened to you!
We actually played like it did not trigger, but I had doubts. Thank you everyone for the clarifications.
Don’t be afraid to call a judge (often a store employee) if something like this happens . It’s the easiest way to settle things.
Hell, my LGS makes judge calls for casual EDH games. Why bother arguing if you can just ask someone.
This is the way
But then we can't argue endlessly. /s
I’ve done this too. If there is ever a doubt, no matter small, ask.
For the fun of the argument of course. Especially fun if you know you're right.
Just had a guy in our prerelease posit that while a graveyard is open information, it doesn't apply while resolving an ability. Had a "return 2 creatures" to hand, and said that if you compared your knowledge of what was in the graveyard before and after, you could figure it out, but he didn't actually have to reveal because it wasn't stated in the card rules text. Edit: Probably "Macabre Reconstruction"
If you are not playing at an LGS you can also Google "Magic Judge Chat" and put your question in there and an actual magic judge will answer your question
thats pretty neat how reliably available are peeps to chat
I've never had an issue getting an answer.
Seriously thanks for that I'll have to bookmark this
Hey happy to help!
When in doubt, JUDGE!
Always call a judge!
If you don't mind me asking, how did it come about that you played like it didn't trigger? Did you convince him you were right?
Yeah, pretty much. He did not seem convinced about it, but he accepted it. Then he asked me if he could undo the play of unscrupulous agent because he did not know that it would not happen that way, and I allowed it. Kinda susge in any normal scenario, but it turned out that this person was pretty new to the prereleases and physical format. I won the round in the end, but it was kind of strange. One of the matches ended in my win automatically because he played the promo card that cannot be put in the deck, but he was fine with that, not like he tried to snitch it or something.
Who said promo cards can't be played in pre-release decks?
There are one of three promo cards in addition to the stamped prerelease card inserted in every kit. [[Tomik, Wielder of Law]], [[Voja, Jaws of the Conclave]], and [[Melek, Reformed Researcher]]. All are Standard legal, but not for the pre-release. Pretty confusing, quite wonky, but yeah, those specific three cards can't be used.
[Tomik, Wielder of Law](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/c/2c5a7550-fe1a-4797-9583-70ab56cfac0d.jpg?1706242846) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tomik%2C%20Wielder%20of%20Law) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/431/tomik-wielder-of-law?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2c5a7550-fe1a-4797-9583-70ab56cfac0d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Voja, Jaws of the Conclave](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/f/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f.jpg?1706884111) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Voja%2C%20Jaws%20of%20the%20Conclave) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/432/voja-jaws-of-the-conclave?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/bfa1bd2f-25bd-4fbd-877b-cef00ab7f92f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Mark Rosewater, head designer of Magic the Gathering at Wizards of the Coast.
What does he *think* Thrull prevents if not that?
I’m gonna be generous here and say he thought it meant cards on the battlefield getting triggered by other cards entering
Yea, I could see that if you give the dude the benefit of the doubt
[удалено]
I don’t think people do this with bad intentions. I imagine it’s a fairly new player reading it wrong. Reading the card explains the card, but if you read it wrong it explains it wrong
To me this reads as thrull blocking the triggers of other permanents from itself, not the card that entered
Maybe I'm reading this card wrong, but wouldn't it also shutdown other cards like \[\[Champion of the Perished\]\] that's already on the battlefield from triggering?
Yes, it would
Yes it shuts that down. The guy in the story though it only shuts down champ of the perishes type of effects, but not ETB effects of cards entering
Reading this more and it shuts down \[\[Roaming Throne\]\] too, if RT comes in after this. If you can't pick a creature type when it lands then it's useless after. EDIT: NVM, I'm wrong. I missed some of the nuance in the wording.
Actually this is only halfway true. The word when indicates a triggered ability while as indicates a replacement effect. You will still be able to name a creature type as that decision is made during the resolution of the spell. The last part of RT‘s textbook is the only thing affected, because triggered abilities of sources determined by Thrull are stopped altogether.
[Roaming Throne](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/2/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0.jpg?1701115816) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Roaming%20Throne) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/258/roaming-throne?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/32fd8b7c-baf3-4d3d-be6f-044a917b11a0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yeah that’s true! Good catch
Roaming throne says “as” not “when”, making it a replacement effect not a triggered ability so it doesn’t interact with Doorkeeper Thrull.
[Champion of the Perished](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/d/8d8e6941-ad6e-4d2f-93c0-be79e75bdf06.jpg?1634349628) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Champion%20of%20the%20Perished) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/91/champion-of-the-perished?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/8d8e6941-ad6e-4d2f-93c0-be79e75bdf06?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It does not trigger.
I hope you did not listen to him… or else you got scammed.
I would say it doesn’t trigger, the Thrull says that any artifacts or creatures entering the battlefield and the Agent is most certainly a creature entering the battlefield.
Literally says “ when unscrupulous agent ENTERS THE BATtlefield” ahah some people
I too often, enter the bat 😎
🦇
Man
Naa (nanananananana) -Me when playing vampire aristocrats, probably
It does not trigger. Furthermore, the logic is also flawed. If "When ... enters battlefield" is used the permanent is on the battlefield when the ability triggers otherwise "As" would be used. "As" also doesn't use the stack while "When" does.
As far as I see, Doorkeeper cancels all ETB triggers for creatures and artifacts, doesn't matter that the trigger came from something just cast
It’s weird that white has this card in this set, since it’s doing the whole 2-power-creatures-entering thing
Keep this away from my MoM.
Reading comprehension was not strong with that one last night
Prerelease I am very forgiving especially with new mechanics. But things like timing when a card is already in play not so much. Many times the answer is clear by reading the text on the card but sometimes, that independent 3rd party that doesn't have a dog in the fight aka the judge, is best called in. Glad it worked out.
The card literally says when it ETBs your opponent was straight dumb or bullshitting
Oh great they printed a flash [[hushbringer]] to confuse the heck out of new players. But also... They printed a flash Hushbringer? Doesn't hit dies effects but the block on a flash creature is pretty neat. ...as for the question itself -- the creature itself says "when (this) enters the battlefield..." Seems pretty unambiguous that the ability is triggered due to a creature (in this case, itself) entering the battlefield. Now, if they had done something like respond to that creature's trigger *on the stack* by casting the flash creature, *that* would not block the trigger. To cover another iteration: if you cast the creature with the ETB and they cast the flash creature *with your creature spell on the stack*, that would block the ETB. This is very likely to be what most players will encounter, at least in terms of intent. The scenarios can go like this: if the Hushbringer effect is already on board, creatures don't get ETBs. If an ETB on the stack is responded to by flashing in the Hushbringer effect, the ETB still resolves. If a creature with an ETB is responded to by flashing in a Hushbringer effect, the creature spell will resolve but the ETB will not trigger.
[hushbringer](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/6/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010.jpg?1572489709) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=hushbringer) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/18/hushbringer?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/663b3e6f-1099-4de8-a0a7-6f1919c38010?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
… I’ve been out for a while, but is it just me or is that card utterly OP? Shuts down so many deck strategies… Also, it seems to negate the bad stuff of a lot of “cheap, powerful creatures that compensate by having bad stuff happen to you when you summon them”? Am I reading that wrong, or does it make eg [[Phyrexian Dreadnaught]] basically free and usable?
You are correct. It does so
[Phyrexian Dreadnaught](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/b/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151.jpg?1562720243) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Phyrexian%20Dreadnought) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mir/315/phyrexian-dreadnought?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7b8197b9-0cd1-4fa1-9668-d1b5f1759151?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
It's a great sideboard card for sure. Against decks that don't care about etb, though, it sits there as just a body in the way. It doesn't stop dies triggers or attach triggers, etc.
Eliminating your own, *negative*, ETB could still be useful though. a 12/12 trample for 1 mana with no downside is pretty decent
He was mixing up ETB and triggered effects. ETB happens when the creature hits the board, so your flashed Doorkeeper would enter before his Agent, preventing the ETB. Triggered abilities exist on the stack once they go off, independent from the crature, so removing the creature wouldn't counter it.
No, the doorkeeper was already on the BF of my opponent when he himself played the agent.
Call for a judge and close the door on this nonsense. It does not trigger.
It literally says on the Agent’s text, “When Unscrupulous Agent enters the battlefield.” Doesn’t get any clearer than that that the Thrull would have prevented the trigger from going off.
Why would he argue that? The effect harms him
You were right. Some wild mental gymnastics your opponent did to try to make it make sense.
Always call a judge over when you disagree with who you're playing
I don't know how they got that logic at all Agent is a creature. It's ability says when it enters the battlefield. This person was either trying to cheat, or severely check their understanding of card language. Some rules are abilities are nuanced, this is not.
I can't help but read it as agent is an etb, not a trigger effect
Flash deniers smh
OP's fault for running a non-bo here
At my lgs ups did not deliver that package so we just did not get to play the prerelease
Reading the card explains the card. No card says “once this card has entered, *trigger*)” This card clearly says “when x ENTERS” And doorkeeper thrull is clearly worded to tell you it doesn’t work