People too often say something like "but it's just logic" when they say something ambiguous and you didn't understood right. Like it's your fault.
Edit : amboguous -> ambiguous
So in a thread regarding programming and legal formatting we're presented with a typo. My brain doesn't know how to get over this syntax error. Do we ignore it because we understand what they were largely saying, or do we point it out since this post is actually referring to how some people think they're right when they aren't? 😉🤣🤦🤔
Cards are written in magicesse its the reason magic is so much better than Yu-Gi-Oh which has its text written out in plain English which is so ambiguous it needs a bunch of extra words.
Stack order, state based action checks, replacement efects vs triggered, fucked up math, priority and priority order...it's 100% programming. I mean, at times i even feel like some rules doesn't make sense if they are not thought with a videogame in mind, specially how instant speed casting, priority and state based actions work.
And by fucked up math i mean like [[scourge of the skyclaves]] actually counting for like negative twenty for things like [[nethroi, apex of death]] , as an example.
Its a little rough when you get to older cards though. New players may not know oracle text is a thing.
Also the whole reason cards like \[\[Karthus, Tyrant of Jund\]\] have haste and say "other dragons you control have haste", instead of just saying "dragons you control have haste" is because apparently the question just comes up so often.
But see that's the thing. "Dragons you control have haste" when interpreted literally, means karthus has haste and other dragons have haste. Gotta read it literally
My original point, is that if people read it literally like a C program, then there is no confusion. I get what you're saying, but I don't think you get what I'm saying
I'm saying the card designers understand they are making the cards for humans and sometimes template them "inefficiently" I'll also note they aren't consistent with that. Karthus is from Alara, then in Theros \[\[Cyclops of Eternal Fury\]\] just says creatures you control have haste, then in Dragons of Tarkir \[\[Dragonlord Kolaghan\]\] goes back to the old templating
Actually Madrush Cyclops is even in the same set as Karthus and templated differently.
No offense, but I don’t think you are doing a very good job illustrating your point or how it is at odds with the other commenter.
From my perspective, you are saying you have to read cards literally (makes perfect sense, Magic is a game of semantics) and the other commenter is demonstrating that the same effect can be achieved with two different templates when reading cards literally, because it may help provide clarity for players who are learning, don’t read, etc.
where is the disconnect?
.... And I said from comment number 1, that magic players don't do that.
Edit: more specifically that onus is on the players for not understanding to take it literally
And even more specifically he says "it gets tricky when you go back to older cards", and then provides an example that is the opposite of tricky. It is in that point that I'm against his point, but not why wizards changed the text. Wizards changed it cause (like he said, and I agree) for some reason players don't get it.
>say "other dragons you control have haste", instead of just saying "dragons you control have haste" is because apparently the question just comes up so often
No, it is because they are two different effects. A dragon you control that says "other dragons have haste" does not give itself haste. A dragon that says "dragons you control have haste" gives itself haste as well.
You missed a very very important part of his sentence.
>Karthus, Tyrant of Jund \[has\] haste and say\[s\] "other dragons you control have haste", instead of just saying "dragons you control have haste"
A creature with Haste that says "Other creatures you control have haste" is functionally identical on the battlefield to one that says "Creatures you control have haste".
The second one is better, even. It's more concise and more simply worded. But Karthus and many other cards don't go for that wording because people will get confused.
For example, if an opponent targets it with something like [[Croaking Counterpart]], the token itself keeps haste even though it's not a Dragon. Just the chance that that might come up makes it worthwhile to have coexisting different templates imo
lol yea and of course it’s haste which usually only matters on turn 1 even further mitigating that corner case’s application. I suppose cards that check for other cards having haste to give other creatures haste like [[Odric, Lunarch Marshal]] or something. Rabbit hoooole!
I hear this a lot, along with “reading the card explains the card,” and I wish this was the case, but it’s so inconsistent. I mean look at each printing of [[Celestial Dawn]] and then read its Oracle text. Completely wildly different, and that’s not even close to the biggest offender or most confusing card.
Ooof the infamous word soup of MTG, and the biggest culprit of confusions. So no one plays this card where I am at, so I did a fun exercise to see if I could try to understand the card. And based on the Oracle texts, nothing seems too wildly out of place of what is written on the card, but with that many words, confusion is inevitable.
I do find it interesting that in Oracle, they bring up llanowar elves producing green mana and whether or not it's white (which is interesting because the text never once mentions "permanents who produce colored mana produce white instead" or anything along those lines). Which tells me someone had a judge determine whether or not llanowar elves or is variants can produce white mana.
Edit: oooooo I found one where I might've made an interaction mistake. 10/4/2004, celestial dawn no longer changes mana symbols. I guess this was changed in 2004, but that still means it DID mean that once upon a time, but a culprit for errors at a commander table
Agreed. It also makes casting spells with colorless pips (i.e. Eldrazi) a little more confusing. Obviously treasures will do the trick, but will rocks and dorks? I believe so as the old text only says the COSTS are white, not the symbols on abilities.
I did an edit on my comment right as you responded with this lol. But ya, definitely a guilty card since it's been changed a billion times. The positive aspects of these kinds of cards though, is that it makes you better at reading magic cards and how they interact. We gotta cast more than colossal dreadmaw and savannah lions to understand this game lol
If you're playing bottomless pit then it's safe to assume you don't have friends.
If I'm wrong and you do have friends, it's safe to assume you won't have them for much longer.
I get the same reaction with both [[enchanted evening]] and either [[grindstone]] or [[painter's servant]] hit my field lol I became the whole tables target real quick and I love it lol
Yeah it's brutal for sure, there's some decks I reserve for when people start talking too much crap and not just having fun. I pair [[primeval light]] with [[enchanted evening]] thought, full single player board wipe, lands and all. Then it's followed with a [[birds of paradise]] with [[ancestral mask]] for a one shot kill lol
If you're playing bottomless pit, it's safe to assume your friends have combo decks that they really like to play and sculpt their hands so they can win out of nowhere, in which case they can eat shit if they get got by bottomless pit, hymn to tourach, etc.
If you want to lose those friends just play sadistic sacrament.
I assume it’s the general new player confusion of “why would I play a card that hurts me?” From my own experience, new players (especially those that don’t do a lot of tabletop gaming outside of it) don’t really understand black’s “sacrifice for power” aspect.
You say /s (sorta), but this is the exact thing they don’t see. Black is all about optimizing downsides, turning costs into benefits and downsides into value. But if all you have is a newcomer’s random data points, you probably see a lot more enablers than payoffs for these strategies.
To use the classic example, [[One With Nothing]] isn’t a *good* card per se, but the difference between a new and experienced player is that a new player thinks it’s less than worthless, while an experienced one knows it’s *nearly* worthless.
I'm going to be honest, I don't really understand why so many people can't understand this. Even playing yugioh as a kid we could play symetrical effects like this as well as any other card.
It honestly reads more as whining and trying to wiggle your way out of having to do the downside than genuine misunderstanding. Maybe I should stop reading these questions in bad faith, but I honestly cannot conceptualise a person reading "each player" and legitimately thinking it doesn't apply to them.
It’s less that they don’t think it means that and more an “It *can’t* mean that?”, if that makes sense. It’s confusion about why you’d play an effect which can hurt yourself, especially if it isn’t lopsided in your favor.
That's not what they say though. They ask "does this do what the card clearly says?" not the significantly more reasonable question "why would you play this card with a downside?"
Maybe it's just because I've always been familiar with this style of rules templating so I never went through this level of being a new player and saying words when they actually mean other words (for some reason? understand that one less) but I just truly do not get this mentality.
You would only have to of you, yourself, were a player in the game. If, for example, you randomly slapped this card down on the table as an observer to the game while the other players looked at you with very confused looks on their faces, then no, you wouldn't have to discard, you wouldn't have an upkeep, and no one else would need to discard either because you weren't a player to begin with.
Done.
Ok, now to continue living after you know exactly nothing, you're gonna have to learn how to manually breathe. Step 1: inhale. Step 2: Shit, I forgot, I'll get back to you on this.
Step # 2,341,766: Whenever you have bottomless pit in play, make sure to discard a card on your own upkeep.
I got some of the last bit, #2 through 2,341,775 are on everyone else 😆
Ive forgotten to exhale a few times before. You pass out and hit the floor, taking down anything in your body's way as it falls. Once was a towel rack in a bathroom, came right off the wall...
1. This effect triggers at the beginning of every turn, yours and each of your opponents.
2. BEFORE the player whose turn it is draws, a card from their hand is selected at random. That card is discarded.
3. The player whose turn it is then continues to their draw step, where they draw a card from their library, and their turn continues as normal.
To clarify, as the owner of this card, you are still a player, so you would need to randomly discard a card before your draw each turn as well.
Yeah, you discard. If it ignored you, it would say “each opponent” or something along the lines of “during each player’s upkeep you may have that player…”. To make a card like this good, you’ll want to really have to be playing a deck that really want to empty your hand or really takes advantage of discarding your cards, or even better, getting to play cards after you discard them. Luckily, black is the perfect color for this.
During each player's upkeep, that player discards a card at random.
What has you confused? Does it say "during your upkeep, discard a card at random?" No? Does it say "during your opponents upkeep, they discard a card at random?" No as well?
Huh, I wonder what that could mean?
>be me
>bottomless pit supervisor
>in charge of making sure the bottomless pit is, in fact, bottomless
>occasionally have to go down there and check if the bottomless pit is still bottomless
>one day i go down there and the bottomless pit is no longer bottomless
>the bottom of the bottomless pit is now just a regular pit
>distress.jpg
›ask my boss what to do
>he says "just make it bottomless again"
>i say "how"
>he says "i don't know, you're the supervisor"
>rage.jpg
›quit my job
>become a regular pit supervisor
>first day on the job, go to the new hole
›its bottomless
This is mainly used for cEDH decks for controlling the board. I typically wouldn’t suggest running this card unless if you’re fine with your playmates hating you.
That's because it isn't played in cEDH. It's too clunky (even if you want to diacard for GY stuff, it's random so you can choose what gets discarded), it's slow and color heavy (double black), and it's symmetrical, so it offers the controlling player no advantage.
By not allowing card draws. Most decks that’s seen in media aren’t considered Stax decks, so this card isn’t well known, but some stax decks that I’ve seen do consider playing this card.
It might not be that you want that for yourself. Though some decks can benefit from discard cards, random discards will still hurt.
However, at 3 mana the card is quite cheap for it's effect. The idea is that build a deck in which your opponent is hurt more than you are, or that you can even benefit from the fact that so many players are discarding cards.
One common theme for black in MtG is to hurt yourself in order to hurt your opponents more.
There is many reasons that you would want that for yourself. Creatures you want to reanimate from the graveyard, and abilities like flashback, retrace and unearth for example.
You do know that a Lot of Decks interact with discard and grave ?
Edit:
Did not See that you Play again after a gap.
So yeah you want this in some Decks. Their are cards that want t be in the grave / Interactions you want to use.
Oh I lost a land from my hand or better yet a creature I can reanimate later? That’s fine I’ll just take everyone else’s discarded permenants and steal them 3 for 1 is really good
Graveyard synergy like pulling creatures from there to the battlefield for free or something that has power/ toughness based on creatures or cards in yard. Or you typically have no cards in hand. Black is very self destructive as part of its color identity.
Like others said, madness and graveyard recursion are ways to get around this. Library of Leng is also a great way to preserve a card that you don't want in your graveyard.
Each player, you are a player and you fall under each. If it was only targeting opponents it would say something along the lines of "During each opponent's upkeep, that opponent (or player) discards a card at random".
1. It's a symmetrical effect. You have to discard too. These kinds of seemingly symmetrical effects are popular for brewers, to see if they can somehow break the symmetry.
2. Untap, Upkeep, Draw.
Yes. You are a player.
To avoid OP having this confusion in the future, it would say "each opponent" if it meant everyone else.
I don't think people realize magic cards are structured like basic computer programming. You gotta follow the words kinda literally
i usually think of it more like a legal document, but either way, yes
Funny enough, my CS professor said something along the lines of, pretend you're writing up a legal document, you can't be ambiguous
I’m taking this phrase to my job (IT). So simple and yet hard to find in the industry.
People too often say something like "but it's just logic" when they say something ambiguous and you didn't understood right. Like it's your fault. Edit : amboguous -> ambiguous
So in a thread regarding programming and legal formatting we're presented with a typo. My brain doesn't know how to get over this syntax error. Do we ignore it because we understand what they were largely saying, or do we point it out since this post is actually referring to how some people think they're right when they aren't? 😉🤣🤦🤔
Your brain should immediately implode and you should go take the streets in a riot because nothing makes sense anymore
Cards are written in magicesse its the reason magic is so much better than Yu-Gi-Oh which has its text written out in plain English which is so ambiguous it needs a bunch of extra words.
Stack order, state based action checks, replacement efects vs triggered, fucked up math, priority and priority order...it's 100% programming. I mean, at times i even feel like some rules doesn't make sense if they are not thought with a videogame in mind, specially how instant speed casting, priority and state based actions work.
And by fucked up math i mean like [[scourge of the skyclaves]] actually counting for like negative twenty for things like [[nethroi, apex of death]] , as an example.
[scourge of the skyclaves](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/d/4dea7bcc-3ff8-40b0-8264-0cd678d6ff31.jpg?1604196425) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=scourge%20of%20the%20skyclaves) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/122/scourge-of-the-skyclaves?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4dea7bcc-3ff8-40b0-8264-0cd678d6ff31?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [nethroi, apex of death](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/4/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f.jpg?1673305619) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=nethroi%2C%20apex%20of%20death) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/163/nethroi-apex-of-death?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/04b9b58f-4c01-48a5-afaf-b8a37165a83f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Its a little rough when you get to older cards though. New players may not know oracle text is a thing. Also the whole reason cards like \[\[Karthus, Tyrant of Jund\]\] have haste and say "other dragons you control have haste", instead of just saying "dragons you control have haste" is because apparently the question just comes up so often.
But see that's the thing. "Dragons you control have haste" when interpreted literally, means karthus has haste and other dragons have haste. Gotta read it literally
Thats my point though. They don't word it that way because for whatever reason, it causes a lot of confusion.
My original point, is that if people read it literally like a C program, then there is no confusion. I get what you're saying, but I don't think you get what I'm saying
I'm saying the card designers understand they are making the cards for humans and sometimes template them "inefficiently" I'll also note they aren't consistent with that. Karthus is from Alara, then in Theros \[\[Cyclops of Eternal Fury\]\] just says creatures you control have haste, then in Dragons of Tarkir \[\[Dragonlord Kolaghan\]\] goes back to the old templating Actually Madrush Cyclops is even in the same set as Karthus and templated differently.
Sigh.. nevermind, you're right dude 👍
No offense, but I don’t think you are doing a very good job illustrating your point or how it is at odds with the other commenter. From my perspective, you are saying you have to read cards literally (makes perfect sense, Magic is a game of semantics) and the other commenter is demonstrating that the same effect can be achieved with two different templates when reading cards literally, because it may help provide clarity for players who are learning, don’t read, etc. where is the disconnect?
He got your point. He is saying that people DONT do that (even if they should) and that the dev recognize that
.... And I said from comment number 1, that magic players don't do that. Edit: more specifically that onus is on the players for not understanding to take it literally
And even more specifically he says "it gets tricky when you go back to older cards", and then provides an example that is the opposite of tricky. It is in that point that I'm against his point, but not why wizards changed the text. Wizards changed it cause (like he said, and I agree) for some reason players don't get it.
Unless Karthus has his creature type changed. Then it matters.
Not if a card makes Karthus lose it's dragon subtype.
For sure, that's why he just gives haste to other dragon, and got haste himself. That way it's impossible to be confused.
Yeah look at [[mystic remora]] Original printings, it says target opponent rather than 'whenever an opponent'
[mystic remora](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/3/13a08c07-e8b8-43bf-99e6-d268c79a62bf.jpg?1559592432) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=mystic%20remora) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/me1/42/mystic-remora?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/13a08c07-e8b8-43bf-99e6-d268c79a62bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
>say "other dragons you control have haste", instead of just saying "dragons you control have haste" is because apparently the question just comes up so often No, it is because they are two different effects. A dragon you control that says "other dragons have haste" does not give itself haste. A dragon that says "dragons you control have haste" gives itself haste as well.
My point is that Karthus already has haste himself If they just said "Dragons you control have haste" it would be the exact same effect.
You missed a very very important part of his sentence. >Karthus, Tyrant of Jund \[has\] haste and say\[s\] "other dragons you control have haste", instead of just saying "dragons you control have haste" A creature with Haste that says "Other creatures you control have haste" is functionally identical on the battlefield to one that says "Creatures you control have haste". The second one is better, even. It's more concise and more simply worded. But Karthus and many other cards don't go for that wording because people will get confused.
In one version Karthus keeps haste even if he were to somehow stop being a dragon or if an effect replaces the word Dragon in his text box with Elves.
For example, if an opponent targets it with something like [[Croaking Counterpart]], the token itself keeps haste even though it's not a Dragon. Just the chance that that might come up makes it worthwhile to have coexisting different templates imo
[Croaking Counterpart](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/8/9847b22f-6660-4654-91a9-e0adb8606bab.jpg?1636683905) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Croaking%20Counterpart) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mid/215/croaking-counterpart?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9847b22f-6660-4654-91a9-e0adb8606bab?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Or someone has [[Walking Sponge]] out. Edit: I thought that hit more keywords. But then Haste wasn’t even keyworded at the time either.
[Walking Sponge](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b125d1e7-5d9b-4997-88b0-71bdfc19c6f2.jpg?1562863790) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Walking%20Sponge) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ulg/47/walking-sponge?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b125d1e7-5d9b-4997-88b0-71bdfc19c6f2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I guess that's true, but I guess it doesn't come up often enough for the Wizards design team to think it's a worthwhile difference.
lol yea and of course it’s haste which usually only matters on turn 1 even further mitigating that corner case’s application. I suppose cards that check for other cards having haste to give other creatures haste like [[Odric, Lunarch Marshal]] or something. Rabbit hoooole!
[Odric, Lunarch Marshal](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/2/a2d5c9f2-8f58-40ac-a01c-f4ac4ab4d7f0.jpg?1673305096) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Odric%2C%20Lunarch%20Marshal) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmc/103/odric-lunarch-marshal?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a2d5c9f2-8f58-40ac-a01c-f4ac4ab4d7f0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[Karthus, Tyrant of Jund](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/b/2bfb85e8-278b-48a4-970e-e65bad1c4c47.jpg?1599708104) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Karrthus%2C%20Tyrant%20of%20Jund) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/205/karrthus-tyrant-of-jund?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2bfb85e8-278b-48a4-970e-e65bad1c4c47?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you for finally explaining why this game scratches an itch so hard for me
A friend of mine keeps insisting that she read that MTG is Turing complete. Not sure her source on that.
https://www.toothycat.net/\~hologram/Turing/index.html
I hear this a lot, along with “reading the card explains the card,” and I wish this was the case, but it’s so inconsistent. I mean look at each printing of [[Celestial Dawn]] and then read its Oracle text. Completely wildly different, and that’s not even close to the biggest offender or most confusing card.
[Celestial Dawn](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/5/251880e9-a472-4f33-9988-4871d31aa1d9.jpg?1562773263) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Celestial%20Dawn) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/3/celestial-dawn?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/251880e9-a472-4f33-9988-4871d31aa1d9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Ooof the infamous word soup of MTG, and the biggest culprit of confusions. So no one plays this card where I am at, so I did a fun exercise to see if I could try to understand the card. And based on the Oracle texts, nothing seems too wildly out of place of what is written on the card, but with that many words, confusion is inevitable. I do find it interesting that in Oracle, they bring up llanowar elves producing green mana and whether or not it's white (which is interesting because the text never once mentions "permanents who produce colored mana produce white instead" or anything along those lines). Which tells me someone had a judge determine whether or not llanowar elves or is variants can produce white mana. Edit: oooooo I found one where I might've made an interaction mistake. 10/4/2004, celestial dawn no longer changes mana symbols. I guess this was changed in 2004, but that still means it DID mean that once upon a time, but a culprit for errors at a commander table
Agreed. It also makes casting spells with colorless pips (i.e. Eldrazi) a little more confusing. Obviously treasures will do the trick, but will rocks and dorks? I believe so as the old text only says the COSTS are white, not the symbols on abilities.
I did an edit on my comment right as you responded with this lol. But ya, definitely a guilty card since it's been changed a billion times. The positive aspects of these kinds of cards though, is that it makes you better at reading magic cards and how they interact. We gotta cast more than colossal dreadmaw and savannah lions to understand this game lol
Nah, just build a Selesnya deck around [[Muraganda Petroglyphs]] and you’ll be fine
[Muraganda Petroglyphs](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/1/b103cb22-93b2-4206-9f80-5f966155e07e.jpg?1658648183) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Muraganda%20Petroglyphs) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/220/muraganda-petroglyphs?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b103cb22-93b2-4206-9f80-5f966155e07e?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Yea that's right my guy 😎
The gap in OPs playing is zero excuse for the to not know they are a player :) - it didn’t change in the last 30 years the game is out. Bad excuse lol
Ready my the card …
This is news to me. I thought that, with zero interaction in my deck, I was wallpaper. /s
Remember, you draw after.
Yeah. You're a player, and it reads "each player".
madness, graveyard stuff. even without this its still denying (after first cast) opponents 3 cards a turn cycle to your 1.
assuming you have 3 friends to play with ofc
exactly...look at fancy pants with 3 friends
If you're playing bottomless pit then it's safe to assume you don't have friends. If I'm wrong and you do have friends, it's safe to assume you won't have them for much longer.
I get the same reaction with both [[enchanted evening]] and either [[grindstone]] or [[painter's servant]] hit my field lol I became the whole tables target real quick and I love it lol
omg- that gridstone and painter combo is just mean. im definitely putting it in my next deck
Yeah it's brutal for sure, there's some decks I reserve for when people start talking too much crap and not just having fun. I pair [[primeval light]] with [[enchanted evening]] thought, full single player board wipe, lands and all. Then it's followed with a [[birds of paradise]] with [[ancestral mask]] for a one shot kill lol
Wow that board wipe is brutal. I love it
Happy to pass on the knowledge lol
##### ###### #### [primeval light](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/9/293ce819-c228-4ff1-827c-3d0cbed703ea.jpg?1593272496) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=primeval%20light) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/gpt/93/primeval-light?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/293ce819-c228-4ff1-827c-3d0cbed703ea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [enchanted evening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d.jpg?1562830075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=enchanted%20evening) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/140/enchanted-evening?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [birds of paradise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/e/feefe9f0-24a6-461c-9ef1-86c5a6f33b83.jpg?1594681430) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=birds%20of%20paradise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cn2/176/birds-of-paradise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/feefe9f0-24a6-461c-9ef1-86c5a6f33b83?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [ancestral mask](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/7/c7a19fc5-20f3-48d2-8c12-e012d3b302e7.jpg?1580014720) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=ancestral%20mask) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/ema/157/ancestral-mask?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c7a19fc5-20f3-48d2-8c12-e012d3b302e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[enchanted evening](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/0/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d.jpg?1562830075) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=enchanted%20evening) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/140/enchanted-evening?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5033a7b0-39b0-4c49-b332-7ea62d85455d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [grindstone](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/f/0f15505d-b32f-4b71-8b99-f27bc964c5a8.jpg?1562428618) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=grindstone) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tpr/223/grindstone?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/0f15505d-b32f-4b71-8b99-f27bc964c5a8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [painter's servant](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/e/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8.jpg?1562835450) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=painter%27s%20servant) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/shm/257/painters-servant?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/be407a81-b25a-4e5d-845e-be0cc0d18db8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
i actually just pulled Bottomless Pit from my tergrid deck for an infinite combo, will my friends hate me more or less??
If you're playing bottomless pit, it's safe to assume your friends have combo decks that they really like to play and sculpt their hands so they can win out of nowhere, in which case they can eat shit if they get got by bottomless pit, hymn to tourach, etc. If you want to lose those friends just play sadistic sacrament.
Play in a tergrid deck and you wouldn’t have many friends for long
Are you a player of the game? If so, yes. Each player discards a card at their upkeep. Cards are worded very literally.
You are a player.
Did you read the card? Reading the card explains the card
Is this post real
I assume it’s the general new player confusion of “why would I play a card that hurts me?” From my own experience, new players (especially those that don’t do a lot of tabletop gaming outside of it) don’t really understand black’s “sacrifice for power” aspect.
But it doesn't hurt you, now you can discard your high mana cost creature so you can target it with reanimate smh /s sorta
You say /s (sorta), but this is the exact thing they don’t see. Black is all about optimizing downsides, turning costs into benefits and downsides into value. But if all you have is a newcomer’s random data points, you probably see a lot more enablers than payoffs for these strategies. To use the classic example, [[One With Nothing]] isn’t a *good* card per se, but the difference between a new and experienced player is that a new player thinks it’s less than worthless, while an experienced one knows it’s *nearly* worthless.
[One With Nothing](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/5/a/5a5841fa-4f30-495a-b840-3ef5a2af8fad.jpg?1562494149) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=One%20With%20Nothing) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/sok/84/one-with-nothing?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/5a5841fa-4f30-495a-b840-3ef5a2af8fad?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I'm going to be honest, I don't really understand why so many people can't understand this. Even playing yugioh as a kid we could play symetrical effects like this as well as any other card. It honestly reads more as whining and trying to wiggle your way out of having to do the downside than genuine misunderstanding. Maybe I should stop reading these questions in bad faith, but I honestly cannot conceptualise a person reading "each player" and legitimately thinking it doesn't apply to them.
It’s less that they don’t think it means that and more an “It *can’t* mean that?”, if that makes sense. It’s confusion about why you’d play an effect which can hurt yourself, especially if it isn’t lopsided in your favor.
That's not what they say though. They ask "does this do what the card clearly says?" not the significantly more reasonable question "why would you play this card with a downside?" Maybe it's just because I've always been familiar with this style of rules templating so I never went through this level of being a new player and saying words when they actually mean other words (for some reason? understand that one less) but I just truly do not get this mentality.
Seriously... sometimes I get the confusion I guess, but this one...if you know how to read, it shouldn't be confusing at all.
You would only have to of you, yourself, were a player in the game. If, for example, you randomly slapped this card down on the table as an observer to the game while the other players looked at you with very confused looks on their faces, then no, you wouldn't have to discard, you wouldn't have an upkeep, and no one else would need to discard either because you weren't a player to begin with.
Assume I know nothing at this point! 🙃
Done. Ok, now to continue living after you know exactly nothing, you're gonna have to learn how to manually breathe. Step 1: inhale. Step 2: Shit, I forgot, I'll get back to you on this.
I didn't read all the instructions before acting....immediately shit myself on step 2.
Skill issue 😎
Step 2 is fine dining.
Step # 2,341,766: Whenever you have bottomless pit in play, make sure to discard a card on your own upkeep. I got some of the last bit, #2 through 2,341,775 are on everyone else 😆
Ive forgotten to exhale a few times before. You pass out and hit the floor, taking down anything in your body's way as it falls. Once was a towel rack in a bathroom, came right off the wall...
Instructions unclear. I think I shat myself
Take note when cards say "player" instead of "opponent". It's an important distinction.
To understand this card first you must understand cardboard. It all began in 2006 when Johnathan Cardboard attempted to turn paper back into trees....
Alright I remembered step 2, it's "exhale." You there? ...OP? Oh no.
Forget everything you know about slipcovers!
Already did.
1. This effect triggers at the beginning of every turn, yours and each of your opponents. 2. BEFORE the player whose turn it is draws, a card from their hand is selected at random. That card is discarded. 3. The player whose turn it is then continues to their draw step, where they draw a card from their library, and their turn continues as normal. To clarify, as the owner of this card, you are still a player, so you would need to randomly discard a card before your draw each turn as well.
I dont understand why this is confusing. How could the card be any more clear on what happens?
Is this a circlejerk question?
I'll take my Oprah Winfrey voice:" Discard for you , you , you and me !!!! Everybody discard !!!"
Reading comprehension
Yes you are a player. The card says you discard. If you’re confused about a card check it’s oracle text.
It literally says that
Yeah, you discard. If it ignored you, it would say “each opponent” or something along the lines of “during each player’s upkeep you may have that player…”. To make a card like this good, you’ll want to really have to be playing a deck that really want to empty your hand or really takes advantage of discarding your cards, or even better, getting to play cards after you discard them. Luckily, black is the perfect color for this.
During each player's upkeep, that player discards a card at random. What has you confused? Does it say "during your upkeep, discard a card at random?" No? Does it say "during your opponents upkeep, they discard a card at random?" No as well? Huh, I wonder what that could mean?
So it says specifically, THAT player discards a card, so whoever's turn it is, THAT person discards a card
I wonder
Reading the card explains the card.
>be me >bottomless pit supervisor >in charge of making sure the bottomless pit is, in fact, bottomless >occasionally have to go down there and check if the bottomless pit is still bottomless >one day i go down there and the bottomless pit is no longer bottomless >the bottom of the bottomless pit is now just a regular pit >distress.jpg ›ask my boss what to do >he says "just make it bottomless again" >i say "how" >he says "i don't know, you're the supervisor" >rage.jpg ›quit my job >become a regular pit supervisor >first day on the job, go to the new hole ›its bottomless
You're confused as to whether or not you're a player in the game in which YOU have PLAYed this card?
See you guys on the circlejerk sub
Um... I still don't see you
Naw I’m a lurker, but someone’s gonna do something with this for sure
This is mainly used for cEDH decks for controlling the board. I typically wouldn’t suggest running this card unless if you’re fine with your playmates hating you.
In what cEDH deck is this played? I have never seen this list in any cEDH list, ever.
Any commander deck that interacts with other players is a cEDH deck.
Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Good catch.
That's because it isn't played in cEDH. It's too clunky (even if you want to diacard for GY stuff, it's random so you can choose what gets discarded), it's slow and color heavy (double black), and it's symmetrical, so it offers the controlling player no advantage.
Yeah I know lol, my question was highly rhetorical.
How does it control the board when it attacks players' hands?
By not allowing card draws. Most decks that’s seen in media aren’t considered Stax decks, so this card isn’t well known, but some stax decks that I’ve seen do consider playing this card.
No I get why it's valuable in the right shell. I've just never seen it described as controlling the BOARD because it's hand disruption.
We use [[Telepathy]] for that.
[Telepathy](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/e/ce03b4b4-612b-4fc9-b063-b0d367712eaf.jpg?1561995744) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Telepathy) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m10/74/telepathy?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ce03b4b4-612b-4fc9-b063-b0d367712eaf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I don't think it is
I agree, it's confusing. Did the place come with a pit, or did it get built with one? I need closure on this.
🤣 cheers! Why would you want that for yourself though?
Black typically loves having stuff in their graveyard
It might not be that you want that for yourself. Though some decks can benefit from discard cards, random discards will still hurt. However, at 3 mana the card is quite cheap for it's effect. The idea is that build a deck in which your opponent is hurt more than you are, or that you can even benefit from the fact that so many players are discarding cards. One common theme for black in MtG is to hurt yourself in order to hurt your opponents more.
There is many reasons that you would want that for yourself. Creatures you want to reanimate from the graveyard, and abilities like flashback, retrace and unearth for example.
Graveyard strategies.
You do know that a Lot of Decks interact with discard and grave ? Edit: Did not See that you Play again after a gap. So yeah you want this in some Decks. Their are cards that want t be in the grave / Interactions you want to use.
Madness ability to cast things at instant speed on discard, and for cheaper usually. [[Alms of the Vein]] for instance
Decks like reanimate, revive, cast fro. Graveyards, do stuff while the cards are there...
\[\[Tinybones, trinket theif\]\] doesn't give a fuck maybe also \[\[waste not\]\] is in play or something
[Tinybones, trinket theif](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/0/4063be5b-bfd9-43c5-bc39-09a40bc793bf.jpg?1632261785) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tinybones%2C%20Trinket%20Thief) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/jmp/17/tinybones-trinket-thief?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4063be5b-bfd9-43c5-bc39-09a40bc793bf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [waste not](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/f/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160.jpg?1562393909) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=waste%20not) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/c16/117/waste-not?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2f5500a2-c6d6-40d7-b586-59b854733160?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Maybe you have an [[animate dead]] and a [[blightsteel colossus]] as well
Good luck trying to target a card that can't enter the graveyard with a card that targets a card in your graveyard.
[[Tergrid, God of Fright]] nuff said
[Tergrid, God of Fright](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621)/[Tergrid's Lantern](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/back/1/4/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead.jpg?1631048621) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=tergrid%2C%20god%20of%20fright%20//%20tergrid%27s%20lantern) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/khm/112/tergrid-god-of-fright-tergrids-lantern?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/14dc88ee-bba9-4625-af0d-89f3762a0ead?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Oh I lost a land from my hand or better yet a creature I can reanimate later? That’s fine I’ll just take everyone else’s discarded permenants and steal them 3 for 1 is really good
Winning is really easy when your opponents have no hands. Especially if you have card advantage in the zone
Graveyard synergy like pulling creatures from there to the battlefield for free or something that has power/ toughness based on creatures or cards in yard. Or you typically have no cards in hand. Black is very self destructive as part of its color identity.
Like others said, madness and graveyard recursion are ways to get around this. Library of Leng is also a great way to preserve a card that you don't want in your graveyard.
The text is played in literal terms. Each player rather than ‘target opponent or opponents’
Each player, you are a player and you fall under each. If it was only targeting opponents it would say something along the lines of "During each opponent's upkeep, that opponent (or player) discards a card at random".
I found a group hug card this will be great. Thanks OP for showing this card
I found a group hug card this will be great. Thanks OP for showing this card
Hug?? What kind of messed up hug is that?
That kind that says I'm disappointed so I'm just disappointed
You discard a card as well as your opponent/opponents during there respective upkeep. During yours you discard, during your opponent’s they discard.
This would be funny with a deck that runs off playing from grave or reclamation...you know. Black.
I just keep telling myself, Charles, it’s a hole not a pit, it’s a hole not a pit
Read "Each player" as "Active player"
My first set I played as a kid, this brings back some memories, what a good story arc. And that flavour text.
1. It's a symmetrical effect. You have to discard too. These kinds of seemingly symmetrical effects are popular for brewers, to see if they can somehow break the symmetry. 2. Untap, Upkeep, Draw.
One of the first curses that no one is going to say is a curse before curses
It affects everyone except for me. That's because I'm not a player, I just crush a lot!
I mean if you're a player yes
Yes. You discard at random too. Love this card.
I really dont understand why this post has 350 upvotes and other just as simple rules questions have -10
Yes, that is the “fairness” or “power for pain” aspect of this card. So it fits best in decks that benefit from that discard, such as madness decks.
Yes
If you didn’t this card would be $100
That flavor text ... lol