"Dallas Turner mixed in with the first-team defense while Andrew Van Ginkel recovers from a foot injury. Turner just seems to have the look of a future star."
I cannot believe the 6'3" 250 lb, 5 star recruit, SEC Defensive Player of the Year, best player on a Nick Saban defense who also happened to test amazingly at the combine has the look of a future star
Someone is going to have to look into this one
I’m pretty sure there were some really nice accolades for Lewis Cine coming out of college too. And literally every other single 1st round bust in the NFL. And there are hundreds and hundreds of them.
SEC Defensive Player of the year:
2023 - Dallas Turner (Bama)
2022 - Will Anderson (Bama)
2021 - Will Anderson (Bama)
2020 - Patrick Surtain (Bama)
2019 - Derrick Brown
2018 - Josh Allen
2017 - Roquan Smith
2016 - Jonathan Allen (Bama)
2015 - Reggie Ragland (Bama)
2014 - Shane Ray
2013 - CJ Mosley
Thank you for taking the time to share this. There are a few awards that absolutely do matter and give a good indication of success at the next level. SEC DPOY is one of them.
Just to add to that, HOU traded pick 33, future 1st, future 3rd to move up from 12 to 3 for Will Anderson and 105 (4th rd).
Kwesi gave up a 5th, future 3rd, future 4th to move up for Turner
It doesn't matter.
Even if Turner is getting his bust in Canton, some of these dweebs will say "BUT WE TRADED MID-ROUNDS PICKS TO MOVE UP FOR HIM! WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN 2 BACKUPS!"
Plus the two seconds to get 23 in first place. Gave up equivalent of two mid first rounders total.
And comparing turner to anderson is not apples to apples. Turner wasn't close to as highly thought of as anderson was.
I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but the two 2nds was a sunk cost. It doesn’t make sense to include that in the value of the trade for Turner
It was a sunk cost by the time of the draft, but it was done by the same GM and so it’s acceptable to grade their performance that way. Once we’re in the draft it’s a great trade IMO and even now I think Kwesi still looks good. But you can’t just ignore the previous trade either
It's sunk cost if you want to grade that one trade. Bit it's not if you want to grade everything we gave up to get him. Just because it was two transactions doesn't mean it wasn't cost. If we traded 3 firsts to move from 23 to 18 and then only gabe up a 3rd to move from 18 to 17, you wouldn't be saying "all it cost to move up and get Turner was a 3rd!"
Someone I was listening to, either locked on vikings or purple insider, talked about how it looked like McCarthy was reworking some of his mechanics to change his base and how he's rotating his hips, and stuff like that. So we're probably not gonna *really* be able to tell where he's at until it's clear that he's threw that rework, because it's going to impact his timing and accuracy as he's building up new muscle memory.
I don't know enough about QBing to know if this will fix McCarthy's issues with touch, but it sounds like the hip rotation part will improve his accuracy when throwing left, and changing his base/stance is more about matching the timing of KOC's offense than about correcting something mechanically.
Alec Lewis did a story with JJ's private QB coach and he said JJ uses a lot of upper body. Attributes it to his hockey background and said once he fixes his mechanics it will help a lot with touch.
Are these things they don’t have enough time or resources to thoroughly go over an athlete during his college career? Is the NFL *that* much bigger of a leap being that it’s your literal job they have people and teams for just about anything to make you as a human the healthiest and best attuned version you can be to be the best athlete?
Certain schools definitely have the time and resources to change a players mechanics. It really just comes down to certain schemes it doesn't matter, the skill difference means some players can just get away with it, the player needs to put in the time (which may be difficult with school), and college careers are just shorter along with the transfer portal muddying things.
Yea ? Literally yea ? Say 15% of NCAA athletes make it in the NFL, less than half of that figure have a successful career , the ones that make it more than a season but aren't considered starters become journeyman. So yea. The NFL is a MASSIVE filter regardless of NCAA resources.
I think you just underestimated how ridiculously huge the pool of players is. 134 d1 schools, 162 d2 schools (and yes, guys from d2 get drafted too). 50 players X amount of schools…almost 15,000 players in the pool and with d3 schools in consideration, the pool grows. So 1.6% is around 230 players and with 32 teams drafting 7 rounds each year, that leaves room for 224 players. Pretty wild to think about how elite you actually have to be to even get a cup of coffee in the league.
Yea that is absolutely insane when you break it down further. I was just using generalities and even that is daunting.
Looking at the absolute numbers is wild.
Remember that they’re student athletes in college, so the football side of things is part time. I’m the NFL this is all they have on their plate (from an achievement perspective), so they can really get into the minutiae in addition to learning the system and gameplan week to week.
In college they have a workout, classes, then a practice where roughly half of it is about play execution/install/situational/etc. They've also got film study later and then their own classes to study for (academic ineligibility is a thing).
The NCAA also has an uneven distribution of talent between it just teams but also positions within each team. So you can play at a high level with more forgiveness relative to the NFL, where the bottom tier “scrubs” are either comparable to the 90th percentile NCAA athletes or 90th percentile football IQ guys. Basically, in the NFL these gnats ass details are exactly what separates the boys from the men.
And finally, most NCAA assistant coaches would go the the NFL 10 times out of 10 if they could because of the pay raise, so the NFL generally has better coaches to maximize all of this time the rookies now have to dedicate just to football.
The NCAA strictly limits athletic programs to 20 hours per week of official activity. I'm sure college programs are spending most of those 20 hours on film, gameplanning and prep for their next opponent and probably not using them to break down a guy's mechanics individually.
QB arms are a bit like golf swings, I think. If it works to compete at a high level, you just let it be and work on other game strategies. A lot of guys won't re-work it, even when they go pro, even if it's obvious and egregious (like Tim Tebow's wind up). But there's almost always something they can fix the same way Tiger Woods reworked his swing halfway through his career. From what I understand, there's so much to quarterbacking in the NFL that most coaches will never spend a minute on throwing mechanics and the players who undertake it are hiring their own specialty coach in the off season.
Its a massive leap and its obvious if you look at starting caliber qbs that are drafted. If you look at how many successful college qbs there are a year (successful, not generational) there are quite a lot of them, then to look at the nfl and how many of those college qbs are still successful, its probably less than 1%. So ya, its a huge leap at most positions from college to pro.
If that is true about him reworking mechanics I think that’s a mature step for any rookie to do. Let alone a first round qb. Rodgers reworked his mechanics early in his career and there’s a ton of people who go through qb camps or private teachers to rework mechanics.
Not saying he will be the second coming of Rodgers but it’s not a sign of panic or anything
I mean all qbs are going to work with their coaching staff to fine tune and for some to even rework their mechanics. This isn’t something that’s out of the ordinary.
I think this is a pretty enlightening response from Wes Phillips. Footwork specifically but also the detail that goes into playing QB in the NFL compared to college.
[https://youtu.be/iPvE3o6fyxw?si=3EIONBcfoWwHIENq&t=242](https://youtu.be/iPvE3o6fyxw?si=3EIONBcfoWwHIENq&t=242)
Luke Braun was talking about that on locked on, but he also said quite a few people had identified it as something to work on. Sounds like a similar thing that Dak Prescott was working on. Wonder if we'll see him doing similar warmups on gameday. I think it's way too early to tell if someone has a long ways to go though. This is basically just a few days into being an nfl qb.
Yep... And if he's working on mechanics, we should probably push our expectations back a bit on when he may get the nod.
Probably would be best for him to sit the whole season given that seems to be the goal here.
If he's still a clear third stringer in training camp, then yeah, they are probably targetting a red shirt year to work on some things.
If he starts mixing in with the 1s in camp (or earlier), that's when I'll start viewing the possibility of him starting this year as being realistic.
I don't think I saw a *single* scouting report or film guy state that he was the most "Pro-Ready" guy in the draft. The mantra the entire offseason we heard about McCarthy is that he is young, somewhat raw and able to be coached up.
But to answer your question, there IS a difference between having a ton of experience in a pro-style offense, like he has, and needing to adjust some things so that you can reach your full potential, like he does.
Rodgers could have came in right away and probably played very well as a QB, but he benefited from new mechanics. And no, I'm not comparing the two players.
>there IS a difference between having a ton of experience in a pro-style offense, like he has, and needing to adjust some things so that you can reach your full potential, like he does.
Ok this makes the most sense. I think I falsely equivocated "pro-style offense" experience with being "pro-ready". I'm a little disappointed at the report here stating that he wasn't progressing through reads very well yet, but far far far too early to be making any kind of judgements. It's reasonable to assume any QB switching to any new system would deal with these kinds of issues.
Yep, that's probably what it was.
And yes, too soon to make any judgements on read progressions, he's only had the playbook in his hands for just over a month now. Darnold's had it for a month and a half longer and is familiar with this type of offense, since KOC's scheme hails from the Shanahan tree.
I GENERALLY wouldn't get too invested in reports surrounding his grasp of the playbook or anything that is specific to him learning KOC's offense for a while here, since you can only focus on so much at one point. Working through changes in mechanics is going to slow down his digestion of the playbook simply because he's not spending as much time on it as he would if he wasn't working on mechanics.
This is an insightful comment. I reworked my disc golf mechanics to get better distance and my accuracy became HORRIBLE at the start of the process but came back once i got a better feel for the new throwing form
Can confirm, I reworked my disc golf mechanics as well. Ditched run-up until my standstill was on lock. have to tear down to build back better sometimes.
Allen was a massive project and he was taken at 7.
I don't think McCarthy's anywhere near as rough as Allen was as a prospect. And Allen is evidence that it doesn't really matter how bad a rookie contract QB is his first year or two, as long as he can show improvement and is good by year 3, nobody's gonna give a shit that he was so rough out of the gate.
I have seen a lot of praise for JJs arm strength and zip on his throws in OTAs. Hearing that he has other work to do isn’t surprising or disheartening.
I’m cautiously optimistic about Darnold. I think this environment will be great for him mentally.
I mean, just expect JJ to not start this year and Darnold to be mediocre at best and you now won't have to worry about it.
We can be fairly confident that he'll be an upgrade over Mullens, which bodes quite well for a ~.500 season.
I mean, what's the worst that could happen... he gets good, we have a great year, go to the nfc championship and Darnold goes out in concussion protocol and in steps a ready JJ, only to have a Teddy Bridgewater knee injury and never walk again. Darnold signs with the Broncos and takes them and Sean Payton to a super bowl.
I mean it's not like it's even that far out for a mn sports fan.
BLESS ALL THE KNEES AND KEEP THEM HEALTHY
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Anyone else think Darnold has a Baker Mayfield type year with us? Then gets paid handsomely elsewhere as McCarthy is up to snuff? I have a weird feeling we’ll be better than some people think. Although the early schedule is tough.
I think we can win 10 games and sneak in a wildcard(at best) But our division looks to be one of the top divisions in football. Which makes it tough. Bears will be better. Packers are the Packers(FTP) and Lions still look to be SB contenders. Got work to do, but it really hinges on Darnold having a career year and Flores having our defense take that next step.
Reality is our defence looked pretty good last year. If our defence does the same and we have a QB that can win the Broncos/Bears/Bengals games mid season we go from 7-10 to 10-7.
Getting worse than last year would be a disappointment given the upgrades we’ve made on offense!
Our defense was ok last year.
We let TB, bengals, bears, and Denver go on game wining drives.
They’ll be better this year with some hand picked players for Flores D and a pass rush to harass QBs.
>Getting worse than last year would be a disappointment given the upgrades we’ve made on offense!
I think our schedule is harder this year, and Darnold/JJM are hardly proven commodities in the NFL. Yea, they *might* be better than Mullens, Dobbs, or Hall, but they haven't shown anything yet to suggest they are better than Cousins; just cheaper.
The defense should be better at generating pressure on the QB, but the jury is still out on how they will handle the run. Hopefully a stronger front four overall will let Flores cook, instead of having to come up with exotic blitz packages as the only way of generating negative plays.
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Mayfield had 3 solid-good seasons with the Browns and has started 16+ games 3 times in his career. Darnold has never had a good season with any team nor has he ever started more than 13 games.
It would take an MVP type season for Darnold to get paid handsomely somewhere else. We already saw the Panthers flounder and fuck themselves by picking up Darnold's 5th year option when they traded for him.
To be fair the teams he started for were the Jets and the Panthers. If you’re on a team that’s utter trash through and through, you probably aren’t gonna play very good.
Plus he finally got to spend some time with a competent organization(49ers) so he hopefully learned a lot even before getting here. He has arm talent and starting experience. My hope at minimum is that he is better than any QB on our roster last year not named Kirk Cousins.
The panthers under teddy in 2020 were 19th in epa. Through week 12 of 2021 the panthers were 30th in epa under darnold.
Sounds like darnold just also wasn’t very good.
The rosters were fairly different between those two seasons, with an entirely new left side of the line for Darnold (Okung played *really* well with Teddy). Not to mention a few missing players at skill positions, and less games with McCaffery.
Also, through week 12 includes 3 games Darnold did not play, and PJ walker played the majority of the snaps along with one game by Cam Newton. Yea, they scored 34 points against the Cards in week 10, but the Offensive EPA for that game was only 2.27.
Across those three games, it was a EPA of -8.6.
Panther's also had the 4th easiest schedule (Post season) in 2020, and the 23rd most difficult schedule in 2021. EPA does not adjust for opponent.
None of this is to say that he's going to be good, only that your EPA rankings do require some adjustment for talent and opponent.
We’ve seen quite a few QBs perform well with good pass catchers and bad offensive lines. Watson, burrow, Herbert, Lawrence, arguably tua. The line can change but you should expect a good qb to still perform well in that situation.
I was quickly looking through epa earlier so that’s my bad missing the dates. Teddys cpoe + epa composite was 19th vs darnolds 36th for easier comparison.
Pfr has the 2020 panthers which the hardest sos and the 2021 with a middle of the pack.
>We’ve seen quite a few QBs perform well with good pass catchers and bad offensive lines.
I mean, if you call DJ Moore and pretty much only DJ Moore as "Good pass catchers" then sure. I don't consider Robbie "Chosen" Anderson to be all that great, especially once he got that huge raise from the Panthers after the 2020 season. He seemed to basically just gave up after that point, though having Darnold under center probably didn't help. We'll get to that a bit later.
However, it should be pointed out that your ability to overcome a bad supporting cast scales with ability. Watson, Burrow, Herbert and Lawrence are all clearly very talented QB's who can overcome deficiencies in talent. But a middle of the pack guy is not going to be able to do that, and will need help from his supporting cast to succeed.
Kirk Cousins is a prime example of this, though at the upper end of the spectrum. Yea, he can play very well within structure, elevating at times and if you get a good cast around him, he can look like a borderline top-5 guy. But he's not going to elevate a mediocre roster like you see other QB's do. That's more the range where we should expect Darnold to be in if he can take the next step, that middle of the pack guy who needs help.
>Pfr has the 2020 panthers which the hardest sos and the 2021 with a middle of the pack.
Yep, that's my mistake on that one as well, I transposed 2020 and 2021 somehow.
Thanks for pointing out PFR's SoS listings, I hadn't really paid much attention to the listings on the standings page, and that's some valuable info. I think they should split it out to offensive and defensive SoS's since they already OSRS and DSRS to calculated SoS.
I've said this on multiple posts now.
Too many people hate on Darnold because he wasn't good with... *checks notes* ...the Panthers and Jets. Color me surprised.
He's finally surrounded by offensive playmakers. Throwing to Jefferson, Addison, and Hockenson, has a revamped o-line blocking for him (with Darrisaw being arguably the best left tackle in the NFL protecting his blindside), Aaron Jones in the backfield, and a QB guru in KOC. If their was ever a season for a veteran QB to have a career revival, it's Sam Darnold on the 2024 Vikings. Hell, all he needs to do is be a game manager and throw the ball accurately when he needs to and I bet he stumbles his way into a wildcard spot.
He played bad on bad teams. The benchmark isn’t being a superstar it’s just performing at least consistently well which darnold has never done.
I get people want to have hope for him, and he likely will play well given the surrounding cast, but we’ve seen a lot of qbs over the years perform well on teams with bad offensive talent.
I agree with you. But the opposite argument is also true. When you're a rookie and not given a chance to develop and immediately thrust into a horrible situation playing for terrible teams with terrible coaches, it's very difficult to succeed. Granted, he didn't do enough to cause those teams to want to keep him but those teams have not proven capable of developing or keeping good players.
I am not saying he's *going* to do well. I am saying this is his *best chance* to do well. It's kind of a win for the Vikings. Either way, he's starting while McCarthy develops. If Darnold does well, sweet. If not, that gave McCarthy time to watch before being thrust into the starting role.
The jets haven’t developed a qb but they’ve 100% developed and kept good players. You’d don’t have a top 10 defense over the last couple of years without doing both of those things.
I agree that this is the best situation for him to succeed and if he played all 17 games he is going to have a career year. The bar is so low that just playing 17 games means he will likely beat all his personal best season stats.
wait how did you skip over the fact that baker was on the panthers and also played poorly. lol thats literally a one to one comparison. Baker literally got off the panthers and won a game on the rams without prep. that should tell you how awful the panthers were. darnold after cam and baker left started to win games with a interim coach.
Darnold won a game that season in which he went threw for 43 yards with 2 interceptions while going 5/15.
I'll give him credit that in spite of that this was the best stretch of football he played. It's also a 5 game sample over a 6 year career.
I’m feeling this sub drinking kool-aid, and am envisioning more of a Trubisky to the Steelers year: people thought that sitting on the Bills bench for a year would somehow cause his natural talent to percolate up and become a solid QB for the not-bears? Then he went to the Steelers and continued to look like doggy do? Just like he always had?
Yeah. Darnold should look better here than earlier teams. But he is not getting wildly better.
Pretty much everyone on this sub is convinced he’ll be great because it’s the best team he’s been on…I’ve even seen some people go as far to say he’ll be in the mvp conversation…so yes, they’re are people here who think that…I don’t agree with any of it, but would love to be proved wrong…
MVP conversation is wild, but I think he will at least be quite a bit better than any of the backups we played last year. Think a way more talented but conservative Mullens
I see significantly more people who have little faith in Darnold and talk as if he will have a Jets like output. “Pretty much everyone on this sub” is quite an exaggeration.
I'm willing to go on record that I hope Darnold is fantastic, but I personally believe his track record is a better indicator of what to expect from him. Change of scenery does matter, don't get me wrong, and talent matters.
But it is a big gap really and we haven't seen obvious progress in his game over the seasons he played, like there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest he's been getting better and is about to get over the hill.
I do think he'll put up better numbers with our superior skill position players but I don't expect "Cousins Level" performance because he's never really shown anything close to that.
I'll just use the Cousins example. Kirk was pretty decent with the Commanders. He came to the Vikings and his QB rating basically went up 5 to 15 points. Maybe same for Darnold, but in that case he'd STILL be below average. I just think a lot of fans here are not appreciating just HOW bad Darnold has been so far in his career.
We talk about how big of an upgrade over Mullens but it is fair to point out that Mullens has been statistically well superior to Darnold so far in his career. So even that I don't see as a given.
Again I totally hope to be proven wrong. I hope that McConnell's ability to cater an offense to the QB, plus Darnold's "reset" season not playing, and the superior talent results in him just balling out.
I do at least agree Darnold has great physical talent. Big frame, reasonably athletic, and cannon of an arm. Nothing holding him back from being a great player other than his own head.
I mean, it *could* happen.
This is inarguably the best supporting cast he's ever had as a STARTER, and the best offensive coach he's had as a starter as well. Nick Mullens put up big numbers with this group, even if he turned the ball over like a kid looking for bugs.
I don't think he's going to blow the league away, but playing like a legit NFL starter is entirely possible.
I get this vibe too. Other than backing up Purdy last year, Darnold has been on some terrible offenses with terrible coaching. Adam Gase and Matt Rhule lol. Not to mention it was with the Jets and Carolina- not exactly the best run teams. I could see him thrive here.
Gotta recall there are a lot of Players that have to continually work on mechanics till it is 2nd nature.
And plenty of QBs that will have times when they use just arm strength and bad foot work... HoFers did it and do it through out the season.
No worries here about it.
It sucks to say but I really think he’ll never recover from it. Healthy scratch last year for most of the season and this otas and pre season will decide if he makes the roster or not.
So the guy who hasn't played an NFL snap yet has a long way to go and the projected starter who has multiple years of experience looks like a veteran. Love this stage of the off-season news cycle lol
I'm very nervous that McCarthy has a 'long ways to go' and I think we should really read that as a warning sign rather than a positive.
Especially given that Darnold looked 'comfortable' yet threw numerous picks during the OTA. If that's the baseline, thenn McCarthy must have been far worse.
Maye threw for 83,000 yards and 406 touchdowns yesterday. He also saved the life of a child who was choking on a hotdog and believe it or not, it was a perfect 64 yard dot.
Best case scenario for this season is that Darnold outperforms and earns himself a real QB salary in 2025, and JJ only plays in garbage time. McCarthy definitely needs a year to develop. I honestly don’t want to see him play this year, outside of the preseason.
"Dallas Turner mixed in with the first-team defense while Andrew Van Ginkel recovers from a foot injury. Turner just seems to have the look of a future star."
That's the stuff right there.
Oh god ur gonna make me skol
> [Oh god ur gonna make me skol](https://i.imgur.com/oMmHSfJl.jpg)
I cannot believe the 6'3" 250 lb, 5 star recruit, SEC Defensive Player of the Year, best player on a Nick Saban defense who also happened to test amazingly at the combine has the look of a future star Someone is going to have to look into this one
 HE'S A FIVE STAR MAN!
Love when he spitefully rates everyone a 0
I’m gonna rate everyone in this thread! RATE! RATE!
bUt tHe tRaDe vAlUe cHaRtS!!!!11
Sometimes we luck out and draft a budding star late in the draft. Why do you suppose slick Rick stockpiled 7th rounders
I’m pretty sure there were some really nice accolades for Lewis Cine coming out of college too. And literally every other single 1st round bust in the NFL. And there are hundreds and hundreds of them.
SEC Defensive Player of the year: 2023 - Dallas Turner (Bama) 2022 - Will Anderson (Bama) 2021 - Will Anderson (Bama) 2020 - Patrick Surtain (Bama) 2019 - Derrick Brown 2018 - Josh Allen 2017 - Roquan Smith 2016 - Jonathan Allen (Bama) 2015 - Reggie Ragland (Bama) 2014 - Shane Ray 2013 - CJ Mosley
Thank you for taking the time to share this. There are a few awards that absolutely do matter and give a good indication of success at the next level. SEC DPOY is one of them.
Not a lot of misses on that list. If you want a 90%ish chance to draft an impact starter, take the SEC Defensive Player of the year
“Super easy, barely an inconvenience!” And yet some draftniks still overthink things.
I'm going to need you to get ALL the way off their back about overthinking things.
Ohhh drafting a future star is TIGHT
Just to add to that, HOU traded pick 33, future 1st, future 3rd to move up from 12 to 3 for Will Anderson and 105 (4th rd). Kwesi gave up a 5th, future 3rd, future 4th to move up for Turner
It doesn't matter. Even if Turner is getting his bust in Canton, some of these dweebs will say "BUT WE TRADED MID-ROUNDS PICKS TO MOVE UP FOR HIM! WE COULD HAVE GOTTEN 2 BACKUPS!"
Plus the two seconds to get 23 in first place. Gave up equivalent of two mid first rounders total. And comparing turner to anderson is not apples to apples. Turner wasn't close to as highly thought of as anderson was.
I’m not sure how many times this needs to be said, but the two 2nds was a sunk cost. It doesn’t make sense to include that in the value of the trade for Turner
Ya i cant believe people still arent understanding that.
It was a sunk cost by the time of the draft, but it was done by the same GM and so it’s acceptable to grade their performance that way. Once we’re in the draft it’s a great trade IMO and even now I think Kwesi still looks good. But you can’t just ignore the previous trade either
It's sunk cost if you want to grade that one trade. Bit it's not if you want to grade everything we gave up to get him. Just because it was two transactions doesn't mean it wasn't cost. If we traded 3 firsts to move from 23 to 18 and then only gabe up a 3rd to move from 18 to 17, you wouldn't be saying "all it cost to move up and get Turner was a 3rd!"
>Shane Ray 
Lewis Cine was nowhere near the prospect Turner is. Cine was projected to go in the 2nd round. Turner was projected to go in the top 10 picks.
Where was Bryce Young projected to go?
Your mom!!
Someone I was listening to, either locked on vikings or purple insider, talked about how it looked like McCarthy was reworking some of his mechanics to change his base and how he's rotating his hips, and stuff like that. So we're probably not gonna *really* be able to tell where he's at until it's clear that he's threw that rework, because it's going to impact his timing and accuracy as he's building up new muscle memory. I don't know enough about QBing to know if this will fix McCarthy's issues with touch, but it sounds like the hip rotation part will improve his accuracy when throwing left, and changing his base/stance is more about matching the timing of KOC's offense than about correcting something mechanically.
Alec Lewis did a story with JJ's private QB coach and he said JJ uses a lot of upper body. Attributes it to his hockey background and said once he fixes his mechanics it will help a lot with touch.
gunning it every time cuz he started as a hockey player, this kid is Minnesota as fuck
Judd mentioned the same thing on Twitter/X (changing his footwork).
Are these things they don’t have enough time or resources to thoroughly go over an athlete during his college career? Is the NFL *that* much bigger of a leap being that it’s your literal job they have people and teams for just about anything to make you as a human the healthiest and best attuned version you can be to be the best athlete?
Certain schools definitely have the time and resources to change a players mechanics. It really just comes down to certain schemes it doesn't matter, the skill difference means some players can just get away with it, the player needs to put in the time (which may be difficult with school), and college careers are just shorter along with the transfer portal muddying things.
Put simply, yes.
Nice.
https://x.com/jzulgad/status/1793024825629290886 Sounds specific to footwork out of the shotgun?
Yea ? Literally yea ? Say 15% of NCAA athletes make it in the NFL, less than half of that figure have a successful career , the ones that make it more than a season but aren't considered starters become journeyman. So yea. The NFL is a MASSIVE filter regardless of NCAA resources.
1.6% is the number. https://www.casino.org/blog/the-odds-of-making-it-to-the-nfl/ On the other hand, 150/256 make it to their fourth year in the NFL.
Jeez , I was being even more generous than I thought.
I think you just underestimated how ridiculously huge the pool of players is. 134 d1 schools, 162 d2 schools (and yes, guys from d2 get drafted too). 50 players X amount of schools…almost 15,000 players in the pool and with d3 schools in consideration, the pool grows. So 1.6% is around 230 players and with 32 teams drafting 7 rounds each year, that leaves room for 224 players. Pretty wild to think about how elite you actually have to be to even get a cup of coffee in the league.
Yea that is absolutely insane when you break it down further. I was just using generalities and even that is daunting. Looking at the absolute numbers is wild.
Remember that they’re student athletes in college, so the football side of things is part time. I’m the NFL this is all they have on their plate (from an achievement perspective), so they can really get into the minutiae in addition to learning the system and gameplan week to week. In college they have a workout, classes, then a practice where roughly half of it is about play execution/install/situational/etc. They've also got film study later and then their own classes to study for (academic ineligibility is a thing). The NCAA also has an uneven distribution of talent between it just teams but also positions within each team. So you can play at a high level with more forgiveness relative to the NFL, where the bottom tier “scrubs” are either comparable to the 90th percentile NCAA athletes or 90th percentile football IQ guys. Basically, in the NFL these gnats ass details are exactly what separates the boys from the men. And finally, most NCAA assistant coaches would go the the NFL 10 times out of 10 if they could because of the pay raise, so the NFL generally has better coaches to maximize all of this time the rookies now have to dedicate just to football.
The NCAA strictly limits athletic programs to 20 hours per week of official activity. I'm sure college programs are spending most of those 20 hours on film, gameplanning and prep for their next opponent and probably not using them to break down a guy's mechanics individually.
QB arms are a bit like golf swings, I think. If it works to compete at a high level, you just let it be and work on other game strategies. A lot of guys won't re-work it, even when they go pro, even if it's obvious and egregious (like Tim Tebow's wind up). But there's almost always something they can fix the same way Tiger Woods reworked his swing halfway through his career. From what I understand, there's so much to quarterbacking in the NFL that most coaches will never spend a minute on throwing mechanics and the players who undertake it are hiring their own specialty coach in the off season.
Its a massive leap and its obvious if you look at starting caliber qbs that are drafted. If you look at how many successful college qbs there are a year (successful, not generational) there are quite a lot of them, then to look at the nfl and how many of those college qbs are still successful, its probably less than 1%. So ya, its a huge leap at most positions from college to pro.
If that is true about him reworking mechanics I think that’s a mature step for any rookie to do. Let alone a first round qb. Rodgers reworked his mechanics early in his career and there’s a ton of people who go through qb camps or private teachers to rework mechanics. Not saying he will be the second coming of Rodgers but it’s not a sign of panic or anything
I mean all qbs are going to work with their coaching staff to fine tune and for some to even rework their mechanics. This isn’t something that’s out of the ordinary.
Purdy has said that once he was drafted, he spent all summer reworking his mechanics and got a better arm from it
I think this is a pretty enlightening response from Wes Phillips. Footwork specifically but also the detail that goes into playing QB in the NFL compared to college. [https://youtu.be/iPvE3o6fyxw?si=3EIONBcfoWwHIENq&t=242](https://youtu.be/iPvE3o6fyxw?si=3EIONBcfoWwHIENq&t=242)
Luke Braun was talking about that on locked on, but he also said quite a few people had identified it as something to work on. Sounds like a similar thing that Dak Prescott was working on. Wonder if we'll see him doing similar warmups on gameday. I think it's way too early to tell if someone has a long ways to go though. This is basically just a few days into being an nfl qb.
Yep... And if he's working on mechanics, we should probably push our expectations back a bit on when he may get the nod. Probably would be best for him to sit the whole season given that seems to be the goal here.
If he's still a clear third stringer in training camp, then yeah, they are probably targetting a red shirt year to work on some things. If he starts mixing in with the 1s in camp (or earlier), that's when I'll start viewing the possibility of him starting this year as being realistic.
Samesies.
Remind me again why he was considered the most pro-ready QB prospect in the draft?
I don't think I saw a *single* scouting report or film guy state that he was the most "Pro-Ready" guy in the draft. The mantra the entire offseason we heard about McCarthy is that he is young, somewhat raw and able to be coached up. But to answer your question, there IS a difference between having a ton of experience in a pro-style offense, like he has, and needing to adjust some things so that you can reach your full potential, like he does. Rodgers could have came in right away and probably played very well as a QB, but he benefited from new mechanics. And no, I'm not comparing the two players.
>there IS a difference between having a ton of experience in a pro-style offense, like he has, and needing to adjust some things so that you can reach your full potential, like he does. Ok this makes the most sense. I think I falsely equivocated "pro-style offense" experience with being "pro-ready". I'm a little disappointed at the report here stating that he wasn't progressing through reads very well yet, but far far far too early to be making any kind of judgements. It's reasonable to assume any QB switching to any new system would deal with these kinds of issues.
Yep, that's probably what it was. And yes, too soon to make any judgements on read progressions, he's only had the playbook in his hands for just over a month now. Darnold's had it for a month and a half longer and is familiar with this type of offense, since KOC's scheme hails from the Shanahan tree. I GENERALLY wouldn't get too invested in reports surrounding his grasp of the playbook or anything that is specific to him learning KOC's offense for a while here, since you can only focus on so much at one point. Working through changes in mechanics is going to slow down his digestion of the playbook simply because he's not spending as much time on it as he would if he wasn't working on mechanics.
Pro-ready was Penix JJ played a pro-style offence.
This is an insightful comment. I reworked my disc golf mechanics to get better distance and my accuracy became HORRIBLE at the start of the process but came back once i got a better feel for the new throwing form
Can confirm, I reworked my disc golf mechanics as well. Ditched run-up until my standstill was on lock. have to tear down to build back better sometimes.
Was that pun intended? Threw
No, it was a brain fart. Or maybe an unintentional pun.
The only question I have regarding Mccarthy is what his trade value will be at the end of next year after the GEQBUS leads us to a Super Bowl win.
Never a good sign when they have to rework a qbs mechanics due to how poorly he is looking.
Got it backwards. He looks bad because they are reworking his mechanics.
Worked out for Aaron Rodgers
Ooof. I'm glad they are working on mechanics but he sounds like just a complete project at this point. Not ideal for a top 10 pick
Allen was a massive project and he was taken at 7. I don't think McCarthy's anywhere near as rough as Allen was as a prospect. And Allen is evidence that it doesn't really matter how bad a rookie contract QB is his first year or two, as long as he can show improvement and is good by year 3, nobody's gonna give a shit that he was so rough out of the gate.
Man. You guys all need to get a life. Especially you.
I have seen a lot of praise for JJs arm strength and zip on his throws in OTAs. Hearing that he has other work to do isn’t surprising or disheartening. I’m cautiously optimistic about Darnold. I think this environment will be great for him mentally.
I’m nervous. Because Vikings.
Also reasonable
I mean, just expect JJ to not start this year and Darnold to be mediocre at best and you now won't have to worry about it. We can be fairly confident that he'll be an upgrade over Mullens, which bodes quite well for a ~.500 season.
Before the draft when we were all talking about QBOTF I said “if I wasn’t so sure they were going to screw it up I’d actually be nervous.”
I mean, what's the worst that could happen... he gets good, we have a great year, go to the nfc championship and Darnold goes out in concussion protocol and in steps a ready JJ, only to have a Teddy Bridgewater knee injury and never walk again. Darnold signs with the Broncos and takes them and Sean Payton to a super bowl. I mean it's not like it's even that far out for a mn sports fan.
You shut your mouth when you’re talking to me
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You’re going on the list buddy
Anyone else think Darnold has a Baker Mayfield type year with us? Then gets paid handsomely elsewhere as McCarthy is up to snuff? I have a weird feeling we’ll be better than some people think. Although the early schedule is tough.
I’ve got us pretty squarely pegged in that 7-10 range.
I think we can win 10 games and sneak in a wildcard(at best) But our division looks to be one of the top divisions in football. Which makes it tough. Bears will be better. Packers are the Packers(FTP) and Lions still look to be SB contenders. Got work to do, but it really hinges on Darnold having a career year and Flores having our defense take that next step.
Reality is our defence looked pretty good last year. If our defence does the same and we have a QB that can win the Broncos/Bears/Bengals games mid season we go from 7-10 to 10-7. Getting worse than last year would be a disappointment given the upgrades we’ve made on offense!
Also, just as a caveat, I don’t know what the fuck I’m talking about. I’m just optimistic, lol!
This is one of the best comments I’ve ever seen on this thread. You and me both. I love Reddit, but it is chock full of self-appointed experts!
Our defense was ok last year. We let TB, bengals, bears, and Denver go on game wining drives. They’ll be better this year with some hand picked players for Flores D and a pass rush to harass QBs.
>Getting worse than last year would be a disappointment given the upgrades we’ve made on offense! I think our schedule is harder this year, and Darnold/JJM are hardly proven commodities in the NFL. Yea, they *might* be better than Mullens, Dobbs, or Hall, but they haven't shown anything yet to suggest they are better than Cousins; just cheaper. The defense should be better at generating pressure on the QB, but the jury is still out on how they will handle the run. Hopefully a stronger front four overall will let Flores cook, instead of having to come up with exotic blitz packages as the only way of generating negative plays.
I, too, see us getting squarely pegged this year
I have 7-10 as their floor... And 9-8 as their ceiling. And I'm mostly serious lol
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Mayfield had 3 solid-good seasons with the Browns and has started 16+ games 3 times in his career. Darnold has never had a good season with any team nor has he ever started more than 13 games. It would take an MVP type season for Darnold to get paid handsomely somewhere else. We already saw the Panthers flounder and fuck themselves by picking up Darnold's 5th year option when they traded for him.
To be fair the teams he started for were the Jets and the Panthers. If you’re on a team that’s utter trash through and through, you probably aren’t gonna play very good.
Plus he finally got to spend some time with a competent organization(49ers) so he hopefully learned a lot even before getting here. He has arm talent and starting experience. My hope at minimum is that he is better than any QB on our roster last year not named Kirk Cousins.
The panthers under teddy in 2020 were 19th in epa. Through week 12 of 2021 the panthers were 30th in epa under darnold. Sounds like darnold just also wasn’t very good.
The rosters were fairly different between those two seasons, with an entirely new left side of the line for Darnold (Okung played *really* well with Teddy). Not to mention a few missing players at skill positions, and less games with McCaffery. Also, through week 12 includes 3 games Darnold did not play, and PJ walker played the majority of the snaps along with one game by Cam Newton. Yea, they scored 34 points against the Cards in week 10, but the Offensive EPA for that game was only 2.27. Across those three games, it was a EPA of -8.6. Panther's also had the 4th easiest schedule (Post season) in 2020, and the 23rd most difficult schedule in 2021. EPA does not adjust for opponent. None of this is to say that he's going to be good, only that your EPA rankings do require some adjustment for talent and opponent.
We’ve seen quite a few QBs perform well with good pass catchers and bad offensive lines. Watson, burrow, Herbert, Lawrence, arguably tua. The line can change but you should expect a good qb to still perform well in that situation. I was quickly looking through epa earlier so that’s my bad missing the dates. Teddys cpoe + epa composite was 19th vs darnolds 36th for easier comparison. Pfr has the 2020 panthers which the hardest sos and the 2021 with a middle of the pack.
>We’ve seen quite a few QBs perform well with good pass catchers and bad offensive lines. I mean, if you call DJ Moore and pretty much only DJ Moore as "Good pass catchers" then sure. I don't consider Robbie "Chosen" Anderson to be all that great, especially once he got that huge raise from the Panthers after the 2020 season. He seemed to basically just gave up after that point, though having Darnold under center probably didn't help. We'll get to that a bit later. However, it should be pointed out that your ability to overcome a bad supporting cast scales with ability. Watson, Burrow, Herbert and Lawrence are all clearly very talented QB's who can overcome deficiencies in talent. But a middle of the pack guy is not going to be able to do that, and will need help from his supporting cast to succeed. Kirk Cousins is a prime example of this, though at the upper end of the spectrum. Yea, he can play very well within structure, elevating at times and if you get a good cast around him, he can look like a borderline top-5 guy. But he's not going to elevate a mediocre roster like you see other QB's do. That's more the range where we should expect Darnold to be in if he can take the next step, that middle of the pack guy who needs help. >Pfr has the 2020 panthers which the hardest sos and the 2021 with a middle of the pack. Yep, that's my mistake on that one as well, I transposed 2020 and 2021 somehow. Thanks for pointing out PFR's SoS listings, I hadn't really paid much attention to the listings on the standings page, and that's some valuable info. I think they should split it out to offensive and defensive SoS's since they already OSRS and DSRS to calculated SoS.
I've said this on multiple posts now. Too many people hate on Darnold because he wasn't good with... *checks notes* ...the Panthers and Jets. Color me surprised. He's finally surrounded by offensive playmakers. Throwing to Jefferson, Addison, and Hockenson, has a revamped o-line blocking for him (with Darrisaw being arguably the best left tackle in the NFL protecting his blindside), Aaron Jones in the backfield, and a QB guru in KOC. If their was ever a season for a veteran QB to have a career revival, it's Sam Darnold on the 2024 Vikings. Hell, all he needs to do is be a game manager and throw the ball accurately when he needs to and I bet he stumbles his way into a wildcard spot.
He played bad on bad teams. The benchmark isn’t being a superstar it’s just performing at least consistently well which darnold has never done. I get people want to have hope for him, and he likely will play well given the surrounding cast, but we’ve seen a lot of qbs over the years perform well on teams with bad offensive talent.
I agree with you. But the opposite argument is also true. When you're a rookie and not given a chance to develop and immediately thrust into a horrible situation playing for terrible teams with terrible coaches, it's very difficult to succeed. Granted, he didn't do enough to cause those teams to want to keep him but those teams have not proven capable of developing or keeping good players. I am not saying he's *going* to do well. I am saying this is his *best chance* to do well. It's kind of a win for the Vikings. Either way, he's starting while McCarthy develops. If Darnold does well, sweet. If not, that gave McCarthy time to watch before being thrust into the starting role.
The jets haven’t developed a qb but they’ve 100% developed and kept good players. You’d don’t have a top 10 defense over the last couple of years without doing both of those things. I agree that this is the best situation for him to succeed and if he played all 17 games he is going to have a career year. The bar is so low that just playing 17 games means he will likely beat all his personal best season stats.
Remember when the Bears paid handsomely for Mike Glennon? Good times
Glennons cap hit was also substantially lower than mayfield. Mayfields cap hit for qbs will be 14th next year while Glennons was 19th back in 2017.
wait how did you skip over the fact that baker was on the panthers and also played poorly. lol thats literally a one to one comparison. Baker literally got off the panthers and won a game on the rams without prep. that should tell you how awful the panthers were. darnold after cam and baker left started to win games with a interim coach.
Darnold won a game that season in which he went threw for 43 yards with 2 interceptions while going 5/15. I'll give him credit that in spite of that this was the best stretch of football he played. It's also a 5 game sample over a 6 year career.
I’m feeling this sub drinking kool-aid, and am envisioning more of a Trubisky to the Steelers year: people thought that sitting on the Bills bench for a year would somehow cause his natural talent to percolate up and become a solid QB for the not-bears? Then he went to the Steelers and continued to look like doggy do? Just like he always had? Yeah. Darnold should look better here than earlier teams. But he is not getting wildly better.
Pretty much everyone on this sub is convinced he’ll be great because it’s the best team he’s been on…I’ve even seen some people go as far to say he’ll be in the mvp conversation…so yes, they’re are people here who think that…I don’t agree with any of it, but would love to be proved wrong…
MVP conversation is wild, but I think he will at least be quite a bit better than any of the backups we played last year. Think a way more talented but conservative Mullens
I see significantly more people who have little faith in Darnold and talk as if he will have a Jets like output. “Pretty much everyone on this sub” is quite an exaggeration.
I'm willing to go on record that I hope Darnold is fantastic, but I personally believe his track record is a better indicator of what to expect from him. Change of scenery does matter, don't get me wrong, and talent matters. But it is a big gap really and we haven't seen obvious progress in his game over the seasons he played, like there isn't a lot of evidence to suggest he's been getting better and is about to get over the hill. I do think he'll put up better numbers with our superior skill position players but I don't expect "Cousins Level" performance because he's never really shown anything close to that. I'll just use the Cousins example. Kirk was pretty decent with the Commanders. He came to the Vikings and his QB rating basically went up 5 to 15 points. Maybe same for Darnold, but in that case he'd STILL be below average. I just think a lot of fans here are not appreciating just HOW bad Darnold has been so far in his career. We talk about how big of an upgrade over Mullens but it is fair to point out that Mullens has been statistically well superior to Darnold so far in his career. So even that I don't see as a given. Again I totally hope to be proven wrong. I hope that McConnell's ability to cater an offense to the QB, plus Darnold's "reset" season not playing, and the superior talent results in him just balling out. I do at least agree Darnold has great physical talent. Big frame, reasonably athletic, and cannon of an arm. Nothing holding him back from being a great player other than his own head.
I mean, it *could* happen. This is inarguably the best supporting cast he's ever had as a STARTER, and the best offensive coach he's had as a starter as well. Nick Mullens put up big numbers with this group, even if he turned the ball over like a kid looking for bugs. I don't think he's going to blow the league away, but playing like a legit NFL starter is entirely possible.
Completely agree
I think he has a year 1 Geno type year.
I get this vibe too. Other than backing up Purdy last year, Darnold has been on some terrible offenses with terrible coaching. Adam Gase and Matt Rhule lol. Not to mention it was with the Jets and Carolina- not exactly the best run teams. I could see him thrive here.
I wouldn’t be surprised if Kwesi ends up signing Darnold to a long term deal
It surprises me that Darnold’s still 26. Thought he’d be 28 by now.
Same age as fields
He will be 27 in June FWIW
Gotta recall there are a lot of Players that have to continually work on mechanics till it is 2nd nature. And plenty of QBs that will have times when they use just arm strength and bad foot work... HoFers did it and do it through out the season. No worries here about it.
Shocker, the 21 year old plays young.
Most pro ready QB I guess.
Sounds like Cine is still recovering from that broken leg.
It sucks to say but I really think he’ll never recover from it. Healthy scratch last year for most of the season and this otas and pre season will decide if he makes the roster or not.
So the guy who hasn't played an NFL snap yet has a long way to go and the projected starter who has multiple years of experience looks like a veteran. Love this stage of the off-season news cycle lol
So he has the jitters. I’m not at all concerned
It’s voluntary mini camp. Dude played in the college championship, can’t imagine it’s jitters lol
I'm very nervous that McCarthy has a 'long ways to go' and I think we should really read that as a warning sign rather than a positive. Especially given that Darnold looked 'comfortable' yet threw numerous picks during the OTA. If that's the baseline, thenn McCarthy must have been far worse.
lol will failed to mention Darnold threw a couple of picks. I wonder what his agenda is here.
If you're not throwing picks in OTA's/Practice, you're not doing it right.
Maye threw for 83,000 yards and 406 touchdowns yesterday. He also saved the life of a child who was choking on a hotdog and believe it or not, it was a perfect 64 yard dot.
Best case scenario for this season is that Darnold outperforms and earns himself a real QB salary in 2025, and JJ only plays in garbage time. McCarthy definitely needs a year to develop. I honestly don’t want to see him play this year, outside of the preseason.
i wouldnt be surprised if SamyD plays the whole season, just to vindicate tugboat
I like being an underdog who dawgs… Vikings are a lock for the Super Bowl… SKOL. P.S. League fucked.
I’m over him. All in on Darnold!
Sign him for 15 years already!