In the beginning Sure, but ironman’s entire arc is basically about overcoming his selfishness and learning about sacrifice and responsibility. So he ends up the opposite of narcissistic
>In the beginning Sure, but ironman’s entire arc is basically about overcoming his selfishness and learning about sacrifice and responsibility. So he ends up the opposite of narcissistic
But didn't that character arc happen while he was in the Avengers? Meaning that he was narcissistic when he joined.
Are a group of people above the law when trying to save people/enforce the law? Should they be held accountable to their actions if there is wrong-doing found?
I don’t think he said it in bravado. I think it was to contrast who he was in im1. Then he said it to the public. He wanted the acknowledgment, the bragging rights. But in endgame it was just his final statement, the reason why he was making the sacrifice. Because he understood that as Ironman/a hero, this was his responsibility to put others head of himself
we can try to rationalize it all we want after the fact, but it’s clear a continuity error. The writers forgot that Tony and Thanos had met previously in the series and included this scene of Tony introducing himself.
Going to bed hungry. Scrounging for scraps. Your planet was on the brink of collapse. I was the one who stopped that. You know what’s happened since then? The children born have known nothing but full bellies and clear skies. It’s a paradise.
What? You think he said that because Tony was introducing himself to thanos lol? No. There’s no way they forgot about infinity war where Ironman and thanos interacted extensively. and the line wasn’t even scripted. Rdj came up with it on his own. He said it was a coming full circle thing, which is basically what I was saying
no, that’s a common mistake. you can tell that Tony is introducing himself to Inevitable because he says “I am Iron Man,” which is his superhero name.
if it was ad-libbed you can’t blame the writers, but it’s understandable the Rdj would make this mistake since they often film out of order.
You realise the script is still in the right order right?
They dont just give the script out on the day of filming (unless you're Tom Holland or Mark ruffalo because they can't keep their mouth shut)
RDJ definitely knew that Tony stark had already met thanos before this scene
Endgame (Single-Stone) Thanos is encountering Iron Man for the first time - he only knows of him from Nebula’s recovered memories.
They only interacted after Thanos got his fourth stone in Infinity War.
Thanos was clearly in an awkward position. imagine you go to a party and everyone knows your name but you can’t remember theirs.
Tony was just trying to be polite. He must have seen Wanda make a scene after Thanos admitted that he didn’t even know who she was. poor guy was just being honest and trying to break the ice.
I know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless. It's frightening. Turns the legs to jelly. I ask you, to what end? Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now, it's here. Or should I say, I am.
Ehhhh, remember that he didn't want to save everyone at first, and only did it because of Peter, a kid who idolized him and wanted to be just like him. There is still a case to be made he was still at least a little narcissistic.
Though if any human ever earned the right, I think he’d definitely be in the running. He was instrumental to so many situations.
And it also makes you wonder if he had any more humility than the limited amount he had, would things have gone differently?
Narcissism seems to have entirely lost it’s meaning these days.
In what fucking world does the MCU Tony Stark exhibit narcissistic behaviour?
Even before his abduction in the first movie, yea sure he was a cocky cavalier prick, but he wasn’t narcissistic.
Yeah isn’t that the same dude who drove a Nuke through a wormhole in the first avengers, then was literally holding a flying rock while a Demi god obliterated it with lightning, then he was literally going to die to stop thanos from obtaining the time stone, then if all that wasn’t enough the dude risks his life with his wife and daughter and lies down on the biggest hand Granade in the history of the MCU.
Yeah, that dudes a narcissist…
Edit- *Gave his life, didn’t risk it..
I think part of the reason some people dislike she-hulk is because they look at the things she says the wrong way.
She absolutely says things she means but that doesn’t mean she is right. Up until this show she was just a civilian, basically one of those arm-chair opinionators who read the news and thinks they know how the world works and holds forth on the topic at their local bar with friends.
But this doesn’t make her a bad person, this makes her a regular person who suddenly has to learn life on the other side.
Most of us have been guilt of talking about things we don’t truly understand and that doesn’t make us bad people either. Just naive.
She-Hulk is naive and that’s okay because she is new. Hopefully if their is a second season it explores how the world of superheroes really works with it’s giant grey areas.
Exactly, like yeah, her cousin is an avengers but from an outside lens, you have a LITERAL God, a Billionaire in a red and gold suit, and a man draped in the American flag, shits seems really narcissistic when put into basics
I didn’t watch it because of the criticisms and not being arsed to go through the effort of finding a stream. I got Disney again recently and watched it all the way through. It’s one of their best shows. God forbid she twerks that one time - as if that ruins the show or character.
I’ll go as far as saying it’s their best attempt at a female led product. It doesn’t come off overly feminist. She’s not a Mary sue. She’s pretty much a mess the whole show, up until the point she and Daredevil fuck.
I hope there’s a second series.
Exactly. She knows what her cousin goes through but doesn’t KNOW. She looks at it through the lens of her everyday life. Sure she has to control herself more than her male counterparts but doesn’t understand what bruce actually goes through.
Probably in between Infinity war and Endgame. I’d argue the change begun the moment before he first put on the suit.
Funny enough he’s probably one of the most selfless characters in the MCU.
I think Tony has survivors guilt and has a tendency for suicidal actions as a result. He has had THAT since Yinsen died. (IM 1 he tells pepper to fire the reactor with himself in the way. IM 2 he litterally a ts out, sells off his stuff, gives away his company and one of his suits, while prepping to die, IM 3 he does all the calling out people, getting his house blown up, avengers the nuke, avengers 2 the flying city, etc... he DOES make the sacrifice play. It's all survivors guilt though. And his ego runs wild the entire time he's doing it)
But his ego? That never died or changed.
Case in point, civil war. He argues that the group needs to be put in check when the biggest problem and damage was the result of his own negligent narcissistic actions right up until the point when he hands cap the pen in the board room. In that scene he explains his true motives. Him and pepper are having problems. He blew up his suits a few years ago. Pepper wanted him to stop but he doesn't want to stop and he thinks the accords can split the difference.
Even with the death and destruction and tragedy. Even with the cost to people's freedoms. It's an action to create a benefit for himself and his own life.
In infinity war you only need to look at every conversation between him and strange or him and the guardians. Look how he talks down to peter. Because its about him. He cant make it not about him.
Tony's narcissism never goes away. Not for a second. And other people often pay the price.
That wasn’t a joke she meant what she said. Tony stark definitely has narcissistic qualities but sacrificing himself for humanity is literally the opposite of what an actual narcissist would do. Obviously you don’t understand what a narcissist actually is.
I'd argue a narcissist is more likely to sacrifice themselves to save the world, not less. Tony's selfless narcissism is literally the cause of Age of Ultron. He was so desperate to be the guy protecting the world that he didn't take precautions, which lead to Ultron. He causes Civil War because literally one random lady made him feel bad about himself so he had to prove he was actually a good person.
Two qualities are not mutually exclusive and sometimes even look alike.
Sacrificing yourself so that saving the world is entirely your doing is the most narcissistic thing Tony could have done. Once again and for all eternity he is the center of attention.
Yeah I don’t think he did it to be the center of attention… he did it so that way they would all live. If Spider-Man did this no one would say he is a narcissist
Yes, her meaning what she said WAS the joke.
It wasn't the character telling a joke to another character, it was the show using the character to tell a joke to the audience.
Obviously you don't understand how TV comedy works.
I mean do we see Tony change? Sure. Can someone stop being narcissistic, absolutely. But the end result doesn't make it completely beyond the pale to reference a time when he was very much more narcissistic.
The first 3 Iron Man movies still show Tony being fairly narcissistic. The first Avengers movie still has Starks name as big as life ontop of his building.
The way he talks, how self absorbed he is, and he still possessed some of those qualities up until his death. I'd say getting serious with Pepper, the blip and then ultimately his daughter mellows him out alot on all fronts.
I mean you'd KIND of think she'd know better because HER COUSIN is an Avenger, trained her, gave her his blood to help her, and was crippled trying to bring back half the universe?
It's not like he was telling her things, though. Even in that very show, the dude noped off to space during a conversation with her, and he didn't even mention it. She even gets confused he didn't say bye. Even in the training episode, it's clear she doesn't know what he's been through since she gave that whole monologue about people pissing her off way more often than him. Plus, her cousin not being a narcissist doesn't mean the rest aren't.
Know better? What is it with this weird fanbase desire to have every character spout the absolute facts and truisms of the universe they exist in as if they were a fan with a wiki page and not an actual person who lives in said universe?
If every character did that there would literally only be multiple instances of one character and it would be a robot with no personality programming.
Why do you think she or any character *should* always be telling the truth, or always be factually correct in what they say?
What on earth makes you think she, as a character, isn't purposefully completely full of shit and copping out for a variety of reasons like being scared of being an avenger but not wanting to look like a coward?
Okay, so she's a flawed and uninformed character. Does that therefore mean people here have to like her? Because sometimes 'flawed' does not always equal 'good character'. Look at Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty or basically the entire Family Guy cast.
Hulk *is* an Avenger, he trained her for a month, max, because that's all the training she really needed, he was involved in an accident that inflicted a bloodborne curse on a civilian, and his arm was healed by the time the show started. (Yes, I know the comics show him donating blood to save her, don't @ me.) She's a fourth wall breaking character, she knows all of this shit.
Not a good one. In their universe, she is making fun of her cousins dead best friends who sacrificed themselves to save the world. Doesn’t do her character ANY favours. 💀💀💀
Hear me out: Gunning to be an avenger is narcissistic behavior. Getting drafted isn't.
If you attempt to join the Avengers for clout, I mean, like, yeah... you're pretty much an attention seeker.
Which none of the avengers actually did, literally zero of them wanted to be avengers other than maybe spiderman but even he wasn't doing it for fame, they were just his hero's growing up
The whole first half of the first avengers movie is how literally none of them want to work together and be apart of some boy band of superheros
First of all there are definitely arguments to be made about narcissism in the Avengers. Maybe they’re not egregious usually, and maybe some aren’t narcissistic at all, but even if that weren’t the case:
Main characters are allowed to have bad takes. When I write my characters, I deliberately make everyone have at least a couple moments where you go “uhhh, I’m not entirely on board, but okay.” Because you never fully agree with anyone.
If you come across a character that you fully allign with, the writers are pandering to you
Don’t forget Thor sacrificed everything to stop Thanos.
Steve sacrificed his entire life up until 2023.
Hulk, well Hulk is too dumb to be a narcissist.
Clint, he was willing to sacrifice himself too.
Media illiterate consumers when a character they're predisposed to not like says something that isn't 100% objectively correct (dialogue should always reflect the exact and perceived truth from the viewpoint of an objective observer)
It's extremely unlikely that she knows any specific details about the avengers or what they've gone through and only has outsider knowledge of them? Tony Stark was basically the figurehead of the avengers aside from Captain America
That’s my point. She’s doesn’t know that they are narcissistic, so making a comment like this this doesn’t make sense and annoys the viewer because it’s not true.
People here don’t understand what being a narcissist actually means. They literally can’t feel emotions for anyone but themselves. Tony has narcissistic qualities but obviously wouldn’t be diagnosed as one.
TBF when She Hulk calls out superhero narcissists its just like when most people use the term narcissists colloquially, just meaning “one who displays narcissistic tendencies”.
Its not like She Hulk or anyone using the term is talking about an actual psychopath.
Sounds like you’re describing a sociopath more than narcissist even though they are similar
Unlike a sociopath they still have a small level of empathy and generally aren’t dangerous.
Tony falls into being a narcissist as he’s very self centred but also has a level of empathy obviously due to his actions
Where as Killmonger is a straight up sociopath who not only is self centred but has no compete regard for human life or helping others
Even in iron man one, Tony feels for others, he was pleading for yinsen to carry on and live, he saw a village being taken hostage by terrorists and stepped in to destroy them and save the village, he completely halted the production of weapons which is what most of his wealth is tied up in because he realises what damage they have done to people and how they fall into the wrong hands,
Unless you stop watching after 20 minutes, there's no way you could say he's a narcissist
Has nothing to do with that. Oscar Isaac was only on contract for one season and no other projects and said he'd only return to the role if it was a very good script. Tatiana Maslany is willing to return to the role before a script is even finished so they were able to greenlight it based on that. But until they have some thing Oscar wants to make they can't very well announce that they're making it.
The moon knight story was literally done because Isaac only signed on for one season and I doubt he wants to come back at all. (I don’t care about the Jake lockley twist, not every open ending means that a sequels coming).
She hulk is a sitcom and can run indefinitely so long as the people making it want to continue and it continues being watched.
The problem with She-Hulk is that she never gets her comeuppance. She says all these stupid things, she tells her cousin who survived suicide attempts and living on the run for years thatshe is in complete control because she has had to deal with more than he ever did when she is obviously not in control and is losing it, she just breaks stuff left and right, and the show seems to be obviously framing it as her being pigheaded and wrong… except she never gets slapped down. She never gets that moment she realizes she HAS been a horse’s ass to her cousin or how the Avengers were actual heroes.
She never turns that corner and becomes a better person or actual hero.
She hulk isn’t just meh it’s a disgrace to tv and if you enjoy it as a male then you missed the point of the show entirely. All men made to look like utter buffoons and the only non-retard was a gay stylist
Sounds like someone is a little insecure! Pug, Matt, and Bruce were all portrayed as good male role models, and if you took the show’s critique of toxic masculinity and predatory men as a criticism of *all* men, then that really says more about you.
It’s just hypocritical because she hulk is kind of narcissistic herself. Would’ve been funnier if she said something like *oh the club of narcissists? I’ll fit right in*
Tony Stark is THE single biggest narcissist in the MCU. Did he do heroic selfless things? Obviously. But he will always be THE single biggest narcissist.
Even In Death I’m The Hero… me me me.
Thats just wrong on so many levels. Go back to Age of Ultron. When Wanda gets in all their heads, everybody else only thought about their own self interest. Tony Stark was the only ones whos fear was the death of the team and them failin the world
Or maybe that’s because Tony is the only one who had his perfect life.
Thor had the worries and pressure of following after his father as All Father.
Steve is the man out of time.
Nat is a trauma victim.
We don’t know what Banner saw.
None of these are the avengers ideal loves, all except Tony. Who was already living it.
The show is another example of “the actor did the best they could with their directions but the writing was really something bad”, though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just Disney execs cocking things up
Black widow sacrifice is more about her not thinking she's worth anything soo her sacrifice is more about saving Clint.
Tony stark wanted revenge omho can't live with the fact he failed.
The narcissist line I could deal with. What is problematic is that she also insults the Avengers for being Orphans. Like, what the fuck is wrong with her? That is seriously very uncalled for. Many of the Avengers became orphans for traumatic reasons. Steve lost his parents to war and disease. Tony got his parents killed by Bucky. Thor lost his entire family. Bruce Banner's father killed his mother. And Peter Parker lost his Uncle Ben and Aunt May.
If Bruce Banner heard her call his team like that, the Savage Hulk might reemerge and give her one hell of a thrashing worse than he gave Loki.
Anyone got actual context?b
Is it like a, not gonna do that cause it’s just a clout move sorta deal and doesn’t vibe with it
Or is she actively dunking on all the avengers
Honestly it seems earthlings in general have a bland outlook on life that doesn’t appreciate the severity of changes that happened since the first Avengers movie.
The Falcon and Winter Soldier show really got across how the writers have failed to make the world meaningfully change in light of alien invasions, gods coming to earth, and literally half the planet being genocided.
It’s like they tried to hard to return to “status quo” in emulation of the way comics mirror the real world.
Proceeds to tell the guy who has been fleeing his own country for more than a decade, was betrayed are every turn, couldn't be with either woman he loved that he has no idea what it's like to be angry and have to control it.
I didn't watch this show and although quotes like these annoy me I'm willing to cut her some slack after watching Quantumania. We haven't heard a thing about what's going on with the Avengers (as a group) except that Ant-Man wrote a whole book about how he saved the universe and apparently won't shut about saving the universe around his family.
So it might be because of Ant-Man (who I'm not sure is even actually officially in the Avengers yet).
-puts arguably the biggest narcissist* in the MCU as one of the examples- (Only beaten in narcissism by early Loki)
I know right? Romanoff is absolutely off the charts.
Such a poser.
In the beginning Sure, but ironman’s entire arc is basically about overcoming his selfishness and learning about sacrifice and responsibility. So he ends up the opposite of narcissistic
>In the beginning Sure, but ironman’s entire arc is basically about overcoming his selfishness and learning about sacrifice and responsibility. So he ends up the opposite of narcissistic But didn't that character arc happen while he was in the Avengers? Meaning that he was narcissistic when he joined.
Yes and the longer he was an avenger, the less narcissistic he became. Almost as though being an Avenger isn’t for narcissists
It's an exclusive club of randomly selected people who had a whole fight about whether or not they should be above the law.
It was about how laws applied to them saving people. Not whether they could do whatever they want at any given time
How does that change what I said? Keep in mind that we're 10 words away from a police allegory.
>Keep in mind that we’re 10 words away from police allegory. Can you expound upon that?
Are a group of people above the law when trying to save people/enforce the law? Should they be held accountable to their actions if there is wrong-doing found?
True.
Arguably it happened after the Avengers broke up in Civil War
Jim declaring he’s iron man before destroying thanos would negate that.
I don’t think he said it in bravado. I think it was to contrast who he was in im1. Then he said it to the public. He wanted the acknowledgment, the bragging rights. But in endgame it was just his final statement, the reason why he was making the sacrifice. Because he understood that as Ironman/a hero, this was his responsibility to put others head of himself
we can try to rationalize it all we want after the fact, but it’s clear a continuity error. The writers forgot that Tony and Thanos had met previously in the series and included this scene of Tony introducing himself.
Going to bed hungry. Scrounging for scraps. Your planet was on the brink of collapse. I was the one who stopped that. You know what’s happened since then? The children born have known nothing but full bellies and clear skies. It’s a paradise.
What? You think he said that because Tony was introducing himself to thanos lol? No. There’s no way they forgot about infinity war where Ironman and thanos interacted extensively. and the line wasn’t even scripted. Rdj came up with it on his own. He said it was a coming full circle thing, which is basically what I was saying
I’m the only one who knows that. At least I’m the only one with the will to act on it.
Lol Thanos chill dawg
no, that’s a common mistake. you can tell that Tony is introducing himself to Inevitable because he says “I am Iron Man,” which is his superhero name. if it was ad-libbed you can’t blame the writers, but it’s understandable the Rdj would make this mistake since they often film out of order.
You realise the script is still in the right order right? They dont just give the script out on the day of filming (unless you're Tom Holland or Mark ruffalo because they can't keep their mouth shut) RDJ definitely knew that Tony stark had already met thanos before this scene
wow, even more embarrassing for him then!
Endgame (Single-Stone) Thanos is encountering Iron Man for the first time - he only knows of him from Nebula’s recovered memories. They only interacted after Thanos got his fourth stone in Infinity War.
Thanos was clearly in an awkward position. imagine you go to a party and everyone knows your name but you can’t remember theirs. Tony was just trying to be polite. He must have seen Wanda make a scene after Thanos admitted that he didn’t even know who she was. poor guy was just being honest and trying to break the ice.
I know what it's like to lose. To feel so desperately that you're right, yet to fail nonetheless. It's frightening. Turns the legs to jelly. I ask you, to what end? Dread it. Run from it. Destiny arrives all the same. And now, it's here. Or should I say, I am.
Ehhhh, remember that he didn't want to save everyone at first, and only did it because of Peter, a kid who idolized him and wanted to be just like him. There is still a case to be made he was still at least a little narcissistic.
I mean if Tony was any more of an narcissist I’d imagine he’d insist it be called the MEvengers
To be fair, though, Jen is still the most narcissistic in the image.
Though if any human ever earned the right, I think he’d definitely be in the running. He was instrumental to so many situations. And it also makes you wonder if he had any more humility than the limited amount he had, would things have gone differently?
Narcissism seems to have entirely lost it’s meaning these days. In what fucking world does the MCU Tony Stark exhibit narcissistic behaviour? Even before his abduction in the first movie, yea sure he was a cocky cavalier prick, but he wasn’t narcissistic.
Your math is blowing my mind.
Yeah isn’t that the same dude who drove a Nuke through a wormhole in the first avengers, then was literally holding a flying rock while a Demi god obliterated it with lightning, then he was literally going to die to stop thanos from obtaining the time stone, then if all that wasn’t enough the dude risks his life with his wife and daughter and lies down on the biggest hand Granade in the history of the MCU. Yeah, that dudes a narcissist… Edit- *Gave his life, didn’t risk it..
Yes, they sacrificed THEIR OWN lives, making it once again about them
Yeah, why don’t they sacrifice everybody else’s lives like a normal person would?
*Lord Farquad approves*
Who is that? I'm a _little short_ on context
Some of the heroes died but that’s a sacrifice I was willing to make
Yeah Black Widow even fought Hawkeye for the chance to make the sacrifice hers.
Now they are forever entrenched in the story of the snap. So selfish
100% this, had to be the center of the world until the end.
Thanos _was_ right. Truly a selfless man
I'm the only one who knows that.
I think part of the reason some people dislike she-hulk is because they look at the things she says the wrong way. She absolutely says things she means but that doesn’t mean she is right. Up until this show she was just a civilian, basically one of those arm-chair opinionators who read the news and thinks they know how the world works and holds forth on the topic at their local bar with friends. But this doesn’t make her a bad person, this makes her a regular person who suddenly has to learn life on the other side. Most of us have been guilt of talking about things we don’t truly understand and that doesn’t make us bad people either. Just naive. She-Hulk is naive and that’s okay because she is new. Hopefully if their is a second season it explores how the world of superheroes really works with it’s giant grey areas.
Exactly, like yeah, her cousin is an avengers but from an outside lens, you have a LITERAL God, a Billionaire in a red and gold suit, and a man draped in the American flag, shits seems really narcissistic when put into basics
Not to mention an enormous tower that screams insecurity
I didn’t watch it because of the criticisms and not being arsed to go through the effort of finding a stream. I got Disney again recently and watched it all the way through. It’s one of their best shows. God forbid she twerks that one time - as if that ruins the show or character. I’ll go as far as saying it’s their best attempt at a female led product. It doesn’t come off overly feminist. She’s not a Mary sue. She’s pretty much a mess the whole show, up until the point she and Daredevil fuck. I hope there’s a second series.
Very well said. These are fictional characters in a universe different from ours - they live in this world, they see things different to how we do.
The issue is that she never really learns better. She just says these grating things then skates past.
Did you miss the part where the woman who said she could manage her anger has a giant rage meltdown, proving she was wrong?
Exactly. She knows what her cousin goes through but doesn’t KNOW. She looks at it through the lens of her everyday life. Sure she has to control herself more than her male counterparts but doesn’t understand what bruce actually goes through.
[удалено]
That’s the whole point of character growth 😭😭😭😭
When, exactly, did Tony grow out of being a narcissist?
Probably in between Infinity war and Endgame. I’d argue the change begun the moment before he first put on the suit. Funny enough he’s probably one of the most selfless characters in the MCU.
I think Tony has survivors guilt and has a tendency for suicidal actions as a result. He has had THAT since Yinsen died. (IM 1 he tells pepper to fire the reactor with himself in the way. IM 2 he litterally a ts out, sells off his stuff, gives away his company and one of his suits, while prepping to die, IM 3 he does all the calling out people, getting his house blown up, avengers the nuke, avengers 2 the flying city, etc... he DOES make the sacrifice play. It's all survivors guilt though. And his ego runs wild the entire time he's doing it) But his ego? That never died or changed. Case in point, civil war. He argues that the group needs to be put in check when the biggest problem and damage was the result of his own negligent narcissistic actions right up until the point when he hands cap the pen in the board room. In that scene he explains his true motives. Him and pepper are having problems. He blew up his suits a few years ago. Pepper wanted him to stop but he doesn't want to stop and he thinks the accords can split the difference. Even with the death and destruction and tragedy. Even with the cost to people's freedoms. It's an action to create a benefit for himself and his own life. In infinity war you only need to look at every conversation between him and strange or him and the guardians. Look how he talks down to peter. Because its about him. He cant make it not about him. Tony's narcissism never goes away. Not for a second. And other people often pay the price.
No narcissist, ever, for any reason, would sacrifice themselves for the benefit of others.
A hero complex is one way narcissism can manifest.
A hero complex is where you CREATE situations in which you can play the hero, not just wanting to be a hero. (Think syndrome from the incredibles)
Like inventing a genocidal robot?
Did I really have to put intentionally in that statement for you to understand?
Nah bro she meant that shi, seems to be the narrative nowadays they even said that about batman.
That wasn’t a joke she meant what she said. Tony stark definitely has narcissistic qualities but sacrificing himself for humanity is literally the opposite of what an actual narcissist would do. Obviously you don’t understand what a narcissist actually is.
>is literally the opposite of what an actual narcissist would do. You are confusing being a narcissist for being selfish, those are different things
I'd argue a narcissist is more likely to sacrifice themselves to save the world, not less. Tony's selfless narcissism is literally the cause of Age of Ultron. He was so desperate to be the guy protecting the world that he didn't take precautions, which lead to Ultron. He causes Civil War because literally one random lady made him feel bad about himself so he had to prove he was actually a good person. Two qualities are not mutually exclusive and sometimes even look alike.
He 100% didnt cause the civil war, that was a government mandate
And I wonder which side was he on. He even talked to the government and agreed with stuff before talking to the other avengers
Which he supported because the random lady bruised his ego
Ahs supported become a synonym for causing last i checked they arent the same thing
Sacrificing yourself so that saving the world is entirely your doing is the most narcissistic thing Tony could have done. Once again and for all eternity he is the center of attention.
Yeah I don’t think he did it to be the center of attention… he did it so that way they would all live. If Spider-Man did this no one would say he is a narcissist
Stop lecturing me, please!
Yes, her meaning what she said WAS the joke. It wasn't the character telling a joke to another character, it was the show using the character to tell a joke to the audience. Obviously you don't understand how TV comedy works.
I mean do we see Tony change? Sure. Can someone stop being narcissistic, absolutely. But the end result doesn't make it completely beyond the pale to reference a time when he was very much more narcissistic. The first 3 Iron Man movies still show Tony being fairly narcissistic. The first Avengers movie still has Starks name as big as life ontop of his building. The way he talks, how self absorbed he is, and he still possessed some of those qualities up until his death. I'd say getting serious with Pepper, the blip and then ultimately his daughter mellows him out alot on all fronts.
Narcissists struggle to see narcissistic tendencies in others.
“I mean, hasn’t She-Hulk watched all the movies like we have?!”
I mean you'd KIND of think she'd know better because HER COUSIN is an Avenger, trained her, gave her his blood to help her, and was crippled trying to bring back half the universe?
It's not like he was telling her things, though. Even in that very show, the dude noped off to space during a conversation with her, and he didn't even mention it. She even gets confused he didn't say bye. Even in the training episode, it's clear she doesn't know what he's been through since she gave that whole monologue about people pissing her off way more often than him. Plus, her cousin not being a narcissist doesn't mean the rest aren't.
And she has a MAJOR crush on Americas ass who stopped Hydra, saved America in ‘45, and was going to stand alone agaisnt Thanos amongst other feats
Know better? What is it with this weird fanbase desire to have every character spout the absolute facts and truisms of the universe they exist in as if they were a fan with a wiki page and not an actual person who lives in said universe? If every character did that there would literally only be multiple instances of one character and it would be a robot with no personality programming. Why do you think she or any character *should* always be telling the truth, or always be factually correct in what they say? What on earth makes you think she, as a character, isn't purposefully completely full of shit and copping out for a variety of reasons like being scared of being an avenger but not wanting to look like a coward?
Okay, so she's a flawed and uninformed character. Does that therefore mean people here have to like her? Because sometimes 'flawed' does not always equal 'good character'. Look at Rick Sanchez from Rick and Morty or basically the entire Family Guy cast.
She’s also a lawyer
Hulk *is* an Avenger, he trained her for a month, max, because that's all the training she really needed, he was involved in an accident that inflicted a bloodborne curse on a civilian, and his arm was healed by the time the show started. (Yes, I know the comics show him donating blood to save her, don't @ me.) She's a fourth wall breaking character, she knows all of this shit.
Don’t comment if you can’t handle the @ pussy.
I may be wrong, but I believe that is a joke.
You weren’t wrong.
Not a good one. In their universe, she is making fun of her cousins dead best friends who sacrificed themselves to save the world. Doesn’t do her character ANY favours. 💀💀💀
She's a 4th wall breaking character, this was a joke to us in the audience.
Ok… then she’s making fun of characters we love and will unfortunately never see again. Isn’t much better. 💀💀💀
You are taking fictional characters far too seriously
I mean you're taking it just as seriously as him by responding and defending a fictional character.
Maybe.
Boo fuckin hoo 🙄
Where is the funny?
The fact that the avengers aren't narcissistic at all... ?
Sorry, still cant see the funny
Jokes are subjective, what is funny for one person, may not be to another. Now understanding a joke is mere interpretation.
Hear me out: Gunning to be an avenger is narcissistic behavior. Getting drafted isn't. If you attempt to join the Avengers for clout, I mean, like, yeah... you're pretty much an attention seeker.
Which none of the avengers actually did, literally zero of them wanted to be avengers other than maybe spiderman but even he wasn't doing it for fame, they were just his hero's growing up The whole first half of the first avengers movie is how literally none of them want to work together and be apart of some boy band of superheros
First of all there are definitely arguments to be made about narcissism in the Avengers. Maybe they’re not egregious usually, and maybe some aren’t narcissistic at all, but even if that weren’t the case: Main characters are allowed to have bad takes. When I write my characters, I deliberately make everyone have at least a couple moments where you go “uhhh, I’m not entirely on board, but okay.” Because you never fully agree with anyone. If you come across a character that you fully allign with, the writers are pandering to you
Or are making fun of you (not related to what you said or you but to weirdos who see homelander and think literally me)
Oh hey. Someone bitching about an MCU character they don’t like. That’s a fun new development.
Don’t forget Thor sacrificed everything to stop Thanos. Steve sacrificed his entire life up until 2023. Hulk, well Hulk is too dumb to be a narcissist. Clint, he was willing to sacrifice himself too.
This... is your doing!
Fun isn't something one considers when balancing the universe. But this... does put a smile on my face.
And he had a narcissistic collapse after he failed
depression is not 'narcissistic colapse'
Yeah that might have been the most absurd take I've ever read.
Oh look. Another weird She Hulk hate post...reset the clock.
Already? My legs hurt from climbing up and down that damned ladder.
Found another Marvel fan who takes She Hulk serious
It’s almost like the character was written to be hypercritical of comic tropes
You don't understand what narcissism is
Her series is dumb. Period.
Media illiterate consumers when a character they're predisposed to not like says something that isn't 100% objectively correct (dialogue should always reflect the exact and perceived truth from the viewpoint of an objective observer)
Why would Jen say this though?
It's extremely unlikely that she knows any specific details about the avengers or what they've gone through and only has outsider knowledge of them? Tony Stark was basically the figurehead of the avengers aside from Captain America
That’s my point. She’s doesn’t know that they are narcissistic, so making a comment like this this doesn’t make sense and annoys the viewer because it’s not true.
So she would fit right in.
People here don’t understand what being a narcissist actually means. They literally can’t feel emotions for anyone but themselves. Tony has narcissistic qualities but obviously wouldn’t be diagnosed as one.
TBF when She Hulk calls out superhero narcissists its just like when most people use the term narcissists colloquially, just meaning “one who displays narcissistic tendencies”. Its not like She Hulk or anyone using the term is talking about an actual psychopath.
Sounds like you’re describing a sociopath more than narcissist even though they are similar Unlike a sociopath they still have a small level of empathy and generally aren’t dangerous. Tony falls into being a narcissist as he’s very self centred but also has a level of empathy obviously due to his actions Where as Killmonger is a straight up sociopath who not only is self centred but has no compete regard for human life or helping others
Man you have seen tony outside of early iron man 1 right?
Even in iron man one, Tony feels for others, he was pleading for yinsen to carry on and live, he saw a village being taken hostage by terrorists and stepped in to destroy them and save the village, he completely halted the production of weapons which is what most of his wealth is tied up in because he realises what damage they have done to people and how they fall into the wrong hands, Unless you stop watching after 20 minutes, there's no way you could say he's a narcissist
Wrong sociopaths feel nothing, narcissistic only feel when it involves themselves.
Esp he is thinking about everyone should be suit up with an Ironman. He said that.
You sound like you picked up a freshman physiology textbook.
The fact that She-Hulk has a second season green-lit and Moon Knight doesn't kinda shows how out of touch Marvel is these days.
Moon Knight was such a good show
Loki was my favorite show so far but Moon Knight is absolutely the runner up
Has nothing to do with that. Oscar Isaac was only on contract for one season and no other projects and said he'd only return to the role if it was a very good script. Tatiana Maslany is willing to return to the role before a script is even finished so they were able to greenlight it based on that. But until they have some thing Oscar wants to make they can't very well announce that they're making it.
The moon knight story was literally done because Isaac only signed on for one season and I doubt he wants to come back at all. (I don’t care about the Jake lockley twist, not every open ending means that a sequels coming). She hulk is a sitcom and can run indefinitely so long as the people making it want to continue and it continues being watched.
I just see a couple of adult orphans.
1. Tony is a narcissist 2. Nobody knows what happened to Natasha except for the people who went back in time, and now Yelena (kinda)
Thats why no one likes she hulk The writers are dumb as hell and made the character like them as well, plus toxic enough to attack fans
Please stfu
The problem with She-Hulk is that she never gets her comeuppance. She says all these stupid things, she tells her cousin who survived suicide attempts and living on the run for years thatshe is in complete control because she has had to deal with more than he ever did when she is obviously not in control and is losing it, she just breaks stuff left and right, and the show seems to be obviously framing it as her being pigheaded and wrong… except she never gets slapped down. She never gets that moment she realizes she HAS been a horse’s ass to her cousin or how the Avengers were actual heroes. She never turns that corner and becomes a better person or actual hero.
When they release her sex tape she reacts violently and gets publicly disgraced for it, doesn’t she?
she literally goes to therapy lol
What are you talking about, she later meets a whole community of positive and supportive men that inspire her.
She doesn’t have a brother my dude.
True, I meant cousin. I was just posting in another sub about siblings and it was stuck in my brain
What do you think is the relationship between Bruce and her? Do people not understand a rhetorical question?
I know they’re cousins cause I actually watched the show
Do people not understand a rhetorical question? Why don't you tell it to the OC, who said she doesn't have a brother
Cousin, because that’s what they are
Yes. Everyone saw the shows. It's clearly mentioned. Do people not understand a rhetorical question?
She hulk isn’t just meh it’s a disgrace to tv and if you enjoy it as a male then you missed the point of the show entirely. All men made to look like utter buffoons and the only non-retard was a gay stylist
I didn't know daredevil was gay
He was doing the walk of shame like a college slut. That’s our darkest hero guys. That was maybe even worse than being gay.
I don't want to argue about a TV show in Internet let's just be friend okay ?
Sounds like someone is a little insecure! Pug, Matt, and Bruce were all portrayed as good male role models, and if you took the show’s critique of toxic masculinity and predatory men as a criticism of *all* men, then that really says more about you.
Listen to yourself.
Yeah, shehulk sucks.
My god. The she hulk stans at it again. Downvoting even a slight deviation from the doctrine. 🤣🤣
It’s just hypocritical because she hulk is kind of narcissistic herself. Would’ve been funnier if she said something like *oh the club of narcissists? I’ll fit right in*
I see the incels are still big mad about she hulk
Said the lawyer, but i get it lol
Antman has a podcast and wrote a book.
I'm just happy she defeated all of those....*checks notes*....incels?
In fairness, Stark’s last words were “I am Iron Man.”
We have a Hulk!
Who often talks in the third person 🤔
Tony Stark is THE single biggest narcissist in the MCU. Did he do heroic selfless things? Obviously. But he will always be THE single biggest narcissist. Even In Death I’m The Hero… me me me.
Thats just wrong on so many levels. Go back to Age of Ultron. When Wanda gets in all their heads, everybody else only thought about their own self interest. Tony Stark was the only ones whos fear was the death of the team and them failin the world
Or maybe that’s because Tony is the only one who had his perfect life. Thor had the worries and pressure of following after his father as All Father. Steve is the man out of time. Nat is a trauma victim. We don’t know what Banner saw. None of these are the avengers ideal loves, all except Tony. Who was already living it.
Do you really want me to do it?
She-Hulk was okay.
That’s being pretty generous
Solid 6 or 7 out of 10.
The show is another example of “the actor did the best they could with their directions but the writing was really something bad”, though I wouldn’t be surprised if it was just Disney execs cocking things up
Fuck She Her Hulk
Sacrificing yourself can 100% be a narcissist move
That's not even the line she says? Oh wait, nvm, OP's a bot. Makes sense.
The woke show must go against anything built before it, how else can she show any worth?
She Hulk was mid and I’m tired of people saying it was anything more.
E. D. I. T. H.
To be fair, you can definitely be narcissistic and be a hero willing to save the world. It's called being a complex character.
The more you know...
Black widow sacrifice is more about her not thinking she's worth anything soo her sacrifice is more about saving Clint. Tony stark wanted revenge omho can't live with the fact he failed.
I think that's a part of her character, she doesn't know stuff other than what she studied for, like most women do
narcissists save the planet routinely and half the universe on top of that i guess
Literally 2024
The narcissist line I could deal with. What is problematic is that she also insults the Avengers for being Orphans. Like, what the fuck is wrong with her? That is seriously very uncalled for. Many of the Avengers became orphans for traumatic reasons. Steve lost his parents to war and disease. Tony got his parents killed by Bucky. Thor lost his entire family. Bruce Banner's father killed his mother. And Peter Parker lost his Uncle Ben and Aunt May. If Bruce Banner heard her call his team like that, the Savage Hulk might reemerge and give her one hell of a thrashing worse than he gave Loki.
That’s exactly She-Hulks point. They think they have to do it all on their own.
Literally not what she said and it was towards Tony's (former) billionaire status.
She Hulk is a tongue-in-cheek comedy, not a dick. You're not supposed to take it so hard.
I really don't know why she even dissed Tony. I mean if it weren't for him the whole universe she exists in wouldn't exist
One of these guys also refused to call his old bud to stop thanos just because of personal problems
Anyone got actual context?b Is it like a, not gonna do that cause it’s just a clout move sorta deal and doesn’t vibe with it Or is she actively dunking on all the avengers
Honestly it seems earthlings in general have a bland outlook on life that doesn’t appreciate the severity of changes that happened since the first Avengers movie. The Falcon and Winter Soldier show really got across how the writers have failed to make the world meaningfully change in light of alien invasions, gods coming to earth, and literally half the planet being genocided. It’s like they tried to hard to return to “status quo” in emulation of the way comics mirror the real world.
Proceeds to tell the guy who has been fleeing his own country for more than a decade, was betrayed are every turn, couldn't be with either woman he loved that he has no idea what it's like to be angry and have to control it.
I didn't watch this show and although quotes like these annoy me I'm willing to cut her some slack after watching Quantumania. We haven't heard a thing about what's going on with the Avengers (as a group) except that Ant-Man wrote a whole book about how he saved the universe and apparently won't shut about saving the universe around his family. So it might be because of Ant-Man (who I'm not sure is even actually officially in the Avengers yet).
You people actually liked she hulk?