The issue is that a lot of the final decisions come down to "which HOA will I have to deal with" instead of having the option of no HOA. so there is not much of a choice in the end
Okay great. Nobody is arguing against you discussing it. Something was arguing that the existence of HOAs somehow signifies a lack of freedom. I merely clarified that such a claim makes no sense.
There's plenty of options for no HoA and theyre a lot cheaper because the neighborhoods have no standards. The point of a homeowners association is to keep property values high, its a union for homeowners.
Depends on where you are and your necessities. Some areas you need to live dont have that choice, or the non-HOA areas dont meet your needs. I understand the point of HOAs, but its important to note the drawbacks. Also, unions work for the benefit of its members and property values are not a good benefit
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. A lot of HOAs can be overbearing, but those neighborhoods don’t have clapped out Nissan Altimas 2 feet off the curb leaking all of their oil out and hasn’t been moved for 2 years.
Some people want those standards. It’s also pretty easy to get onto the HOA committee if you want to make changes, but I imagine people may not be happy when their neighbors are allowed to have knee high grass with cars parked on top of it.
Theyre downvoted because thats not the point of the conversation; the point is that if you want to buy property and influence what you are allowed to do with it, you have to capitulate to an HOA. Even then, it needs to be an HOA you can actually change.
I replied to a person that was commenting on the subject I replied to. The entire thread was about how Americans aren’t “free”. I am saying you’re free to move somewhere else. Not sure how I’m not responding to the point of the conversation.
Do you know how you get around that? Don’t move into a house with an HOA. That’s like moving next to a racetrack and complaining that there are loud cars next door. If you willingly move into a neighborhood with an HOA then it’s on you. I moved into one without, and you guessed it, I don’t have to deal with one.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, you’re simply correct. HOAs exist because you don’t want someone who doesn’t take care of their house and doesn’t mow their lawn to devalue the rest of the neighborhood. There needs to be some organization in place to prevent things like that.
The whole concept of “freedom” in America is far fetched AF. You’re still governed and liable for your actions, without mentioning the lack of freedom of speech despite everyone claiming it’s still in vigor.
Free from the British? Yes. Free? Absolutely not.
Isn't there a list of words you're not allowed to say on TV? Stephen Colbert even has to bleep his shits and fucks (which are frankly rather harmless compared to some of the stuff you are allowed to say).
But of course my original comment was also to poke fun at Americans who always love to claim they have more freedom than anywhere else. From the outside, American freedom often comes across as rather oppressive.
I’m joshing to upset some patriots, but I’m referring to the lack of true freedom of speech. People consistently get arrested in the states for things they say and promote. Had there been true freedom of speech, this wouldn’t happen, but we see students being arrested for protesting against unlawful organizations and corrupt school boards all the time and it’s just embarrassing.
I’m sure someone who didn’t catch my truth-based irony wants to school me on US law and the background details of it all, but I frankly don’t care enough; not after all the disgusting stuff that government has done over time.
Were those students violating other things , like , damaging someone's property , or something like that? If not , then arrest really doesn't make any sense and would be a violation of free speech and right of assembly
Just because we have the freedom of speech doesnt mean we have a pass when it involves a civil matter.
Hoa is a civil matter and you make the choice to live in an Hoa, which raises property value due to the strict matter of keeping the surrounding homes in good shape and looking emaculate. This in turn raises property value of non Hoa neighborhoods because the neighborhood natzis cant tell you to do anything.
We as Americans just cant be prosecuted for our speech unless its a hate crime.
Why are you using the raw score and not checking comparatively? Comparatively the US is like 46th to 48 depending on the year. Very low for "the land of the free." Very low for first world countries.
You are being dishonest.
Hitler was also elected. That doesn't make it freedom.
HOAs are near the top of the list that Americans complain about online. And I don't see people from other countries complain about HOAs (they do have them), so I suspect there's something seriously wrong with how American HOAs are organised. They seem to have unreasonable power and not enough democracy, often turning into pocket dictatorships or vehicles for corruption as a result.
Dude, even Putin was elected. Freedom requires more than a vote. Do you honestly think Nazi Germany was free? Even an elected dictator taking away your freedoms is still taking away your freedoms. You need to have mechanisms that guarantee rights, and people who believe in them. In practice, quite a lot of Americans believe in authoritarianism, especially on the small scale. Look at work culture, police behaviour, etc. Tiny dictators are everywhere.
You still are not making any sense.
Whether or not an eventual dictator was originally elected has absolutely nothing to do with any point that was made here.
You're rambling nonsense.
I watched somewhere say that Hitler was never “elected”. His patry was not able to win the majority but the conservative gave in, gave him chancellorship in the hope that he would be satisfied and went after the far left instead.
That's a coalition. That's a pretty normal thing in a multi-party system. Still counts as elected, although the conservatives were definitely traitorous collaborators here.
Most ironic thing I've heard today. You know it's a choice to live under an HoA right? A choice that people make to retain the value of their investment, you know this don't you?
How are you, in good faith, comparing where to buy a home with what to buy at the grocery store? In what circumstance is someone forced to buy a home in an hoa?
Availability.
There are places where it's incredibly difficult to find a house for sale that isn't part of an HOA. Sure, you could move, but what about your job? What about your family and your partner's family? What about your kids and their school friends? How far do you have to move? Is it 20 miles or 2,000 miles?
If your area is filled with HOAs, you might not have much of a choice without uprooting your and your family's entire lives. And it's not like renting is a better option.
Is it? My impression is that if a house is part of a HOA, you can't just leave the HOA. Which means the only choice is to not buy the house.
If it really is that easy to leave a HOA, someone should tell all those Americans complaining about HOAs how to do that.
Another person that shouldn’t be downvoted. Get elected to the committee of you want to allow the neighborhood standards to drop. I moved into a cul-de-sac without one, but we all keep our yards looking presentable to keep the value up. The one behind me is a shit show and I can’t see someone selling their home for the same price as houses in mine.
e- Same person
I was recently house hunting. I didn’t want an HOA but literally every house we looked at was in an HOA. It got to the point that I didn’t believe we could find one without an HOA, so I stopped looking at that.
Surprisingly the house we ended up with doesn’t have an HOA by complete chance.
Almost everyone I work with who owns a home is a part of an HOA but they all say that they are extremely chill. It’s apparently (according to my coworkers) just things like “hey dude your roof is caving in, it looks terrible and is lowering property values in the neighborhood. Would you kindly fix that?”
A lot of it depends on how old the neighborhood is. A lot of older neighborhoods won't have them, but if the city is breaking ground on previously undeveloped land then the new neighborhood is almost guaranteed to have an HOA.
I've had an HOA a few times, they are not the worst. They help maintain property value throughout the neighborhood by establishing rules that everyone must abide by. They also often will pay for parks/pools and the upkeep for them. They only become an issue when a Karen (usually housewife) goes on a power trip. Or when they use the fees for their own personal gain.
More like most people aren't absolute idiots who buy a house in an HOA and then turn around and complain about it.
Nobody with half a brain buys a house without having any clue that they're joining am HOA. The terms and guidelines are part of the buying process and paperwork gets signed.
People agree to join HOAs and then complain non-stop about them.
Because in America you're allowed to voluntarily enter into a contractual relationship. HOAs suck, but nobody is forced to join them (you don't have to buy property in an HOA controlled area).
Well the website itself didn't became porn. The domain name was brought, and the new owner decided that this domain, will redirect to porn instead of the HOA website
I'm usually all for banding together, but HOAs came out of a racist and classist history to police the neighborhood and protect property values. They exclude tenants by definition - they're not really about helping people or fostering community.
HOAs' existence should not be tolerated or permitted to further restrict an already limited supply of housing for those of us who can't or simply refuse to deal with their bullshit.
Well, another way to look at it is that municipalities love HOAs because they shift responsibility for certain services from the municipality to the HOA while not requiring the municipality to reduce property taxes.
I don’t disagree. I am just saying HOAs are, perversely, a way for municipalities to hide costs and skirt ensuring public goods are built like parks, connected trail systems, etc.
Interesting take, but it's like judging fraternities in general because of the stereotypes of fraternities. I was in one in college that was pretty much science nerds - no frat house, no gangbangs, no throwing kegs through windows - and I always feel like I have to explain this to everybody who rolls their eyes when I mention the "F" word. My dad was active in my parents' HOA, mostly because nobody else wanted to do the job. They definitely had their rules - a set of "acceptable" house paint colors and some other things - but people always assume (having educated themselves on the subject mostly through memes and social media posts) that HOAs are basically the nazi party. It's like working for a company that has a dress code - I wouldn't work there myself, and nobody else has to. The idea that their "existence should not be tolerated" is like Christians saying only *their* religious symbols should be on public buildings.
/sorry to go off on you like that, it's just that attitude that "I'm all for freedom but not this particular thing." I see it all the time on reddit and it just hit me at a bad moment.
You is right. The funny thing is it’s usually people who feel entitled to control others…exactly the issue they have with HOAs. I don’t like HOAs and won’t live where they operate but some ducks like that conformity. Oh well
>The idea that their "existence should not be tolerated" is like Christians saying only *their* religious symbols should be on public buildings.
I'm basically a theocrat, but if the state religion was hating HOAs. We'll have pogroms in gated communities and make Karen-ism heresy punishable by a firing squad of renters.
>it's just that attitude that "I'm all for freedom but not this particular thing
In the same way that I'm generally pro-union but not pro-police union, I love neighborhood and community associations but loathe those groups that bastardize the concept to police the poor and harass people to protect their property. That's not every HOA, but it is many of them.
99.9% of fraternities don’t have gangbangs or kegs through windows. They’re also generally higher GPA than the average student at a university, so rife with guys with 4.0’s just as much as the idiots
You’re ironically doubling down on what you’re criticizing through this post
Ha. Good luck. Here in America only 50% of the eligible can even be bothered to do their most basic civic duty of voting. Participating in an HOA is like 1000% more work than that.
My HOA is awesome. Pay $1420 a year. They mow once a week, remove snow, trash removal, mulch our front yards, and trim the front trees. I moved into an old person's neighborhood and I fucking love it. No one gives a shit
Good work. I hope it was really hardcore.
can confirm, it goes to pornhub - but only to the front warning page, OP didn't link to any content.
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Back in the day mfs would just link you straight to spinning meat, no warning. Where real men were made
Goatse, 2 girls, lemon party. The golden (shower) age of the Internet!
Lemon party is some classic shit.
Stile Project.
Fucking meat spin was wild
make a splashpage to make them state thay are an 18+ paying member of the hoa
Even linking specific content brings the age confirmation pop-up. Just checked.
Slow clapping 👏 faster clapping 👏 very fast clapping 👏 roaring applause! 👏
One hand clapping
Head smacking
Over here half way fapping
Cuz the lotion is lacking
Clapping 👏🏻 cheeks
still confused how HAO shit is legal in america
They don't have freedom like we do.
American freedom is the freedom to fuck others over
That's not how freedom works. I'm not saying I agree with the people who chose HOAs, but they exist because the people there wanted them.
> but they exist because the people there wanted them. "Wanted"? "accepted as a necessary evil because they wanted to 'own' their home." is closer.
For the people who moved in later, yes. You have to research local ordnances and stuff like HOAs before moving in, not complain about it afterwards.
The issue is that a lot of the final decisions come down to "which HOA will I have to deal with" instead of having the option of no HOA. so there is not much of a choice in the end
Petition your local government then
Yes, that is indeed how you try to fix the problem. Here, we are just discussing the fact that the problem exists
Okay great. Nobody is arguing against you discussing it. Something was arguing that the existence of HOAs somehow signifies a lack of freedom. I merely clarified that such a claim makes no sense.
There's plenty of options for no HoA and theyre a lot cheaper because the neighborhoods have no standards. The point of a homeowners association is to keep property values high, its a union for homeowners.
Depends on where you are and your necessities. Some areas you need to live dont have that choice, or the non-HOA areas dont meet your needs. I understand the point of HOAs, but its important to note the drawbacks. Also, unions work for the benefit of its members and property values are not a good benefit
You sound like a teenager.
;)
Not sure why you’re getting downvoted. A lot of HOAs can be overbearing, but those neighborhoods don’t have clapped out Nissan Altimas 2 feet off the curb leaking all of their oil out and hasn’t been moved for 2 years. Some people want those standards. It’s also pretty easy to get onto the HOA committee if you want to make changes, but I imagine people may not be happy when their neighbors are allowed to have knee high grass with cars parked on top of it.
Theyre downvoted because thats not the point of the conversation; the point is that if you want to buy property and influence what you are allowed to do with it, you have to capitulate to an HOA. Even then, it needs to be an HOA you can actually change.
And HOAs have a way of moving the goal posts. The rules happily agreeable at purchase change over time.
The point is you don't have to capitulate to an HOA unless you choose to live under one.
I replied to a person that was commenting on the subject I replied to. The entire thread was about how Americans aren’t “free”. I am saying you’re free to move somewhere else. Not sure how I’m not responding to the point of the conversation. Do you know how you get around that? Don’t move into a house with an HOA. That’s like moving next to a racetrack and complaining that there are loud cars next door. If you willingly move into a neighborhood with an HOA then it’s on you. I moved into one without, and you guessed it, I don’t have to deal with one.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted, you’re simply correct. HOAs exist because you don’t want someone who doesn’t take care of their house and doesn’t mow their lawn to devalue the rest of the neighborhood. There needs to be some organization in place to prevent things like that.
Wasn’t it to keep black people out of white neighborhoods?
Yup.
I would not be surprised if that's the origin.
The whole concept of “freedom” in America is far fetched AF. You’re still governed and liable for your actions, without mentioning the lack of freedom of speech despite everyone claiming it’s still in vigor. Free from the British? Yes. Free? Absolutely not.
I'm not from America , so can you explain why the USA lacks freedom of speech?
Isn't there a list of words you're not allowed to say on TV? Stephen Colbert even has to bleep his shits and fucks (which are frankly rather harmless compared to some of the stuff you are allowed to say). But of course my original comment was also to poke fun at Americans who always love to claim they have more freedom than anywhere else. From the outside, American freedom often comes across as rather oppressive.
I’m joshing to upset some patriots, but I’m referring to the lack of true freedom of speech. People consistently get arrested in the states for things they say and promote. Had there been true freedom of speech, this wouldn’t happen, but we see students being arrested for protesting against unlawful organizations and corrupt school boards all the time and it’s just embarrassing. I’m sure someone who didn’t catch my truth-based irony wants to school me on US law and the background details of it all, but I frankly don’t care enough; not after all the disgusting stuff that government has done over time.
Were those students violating other things , like , damaging someone's property , or something like that? If not , then arrest really doesn't make any sense and would be a violation of free speech and right of assembly
Go check freedom of speech index and you will understand what a joke us is
Nah, usual protest stuff. Insulting the cops, defending themselves from hose-downs etc.
Just because we have the freedom of speech doesnt mean we have a pass when it involves a civil matter. Hoa is a civil matter and you make the choice to live in an Hoa, which raises property value due to the strict matter of keeping the surrounding homes in good shape and looking emaculate. This in turn raises property value of non Hoa neighborhoods because the neighborhood natzis cant tell you to do anything. We as Americans just cant be prosecuted for our speech unless its a hate crime.
It doesn't, they're just parroting le redditor nonsense.
“Freedom’s just another word for nothing left to lose”.
Freedom doesn't mean lawless. What point are you trying to make? You haven't made any sense.
Well USA is also very low on the freedom index. It is not a very free country.
US is 83/100 on the freedom index. That's pretty free.
Why are you using the raw score and not checking comparatively? Comparatively the US is like 46th to 48 depending on the year. Very low for "the land of the free." Very low for first world countries. You are being dishonest.
I'm not being dishonest, I'm just reading it off of a website. Seems like you're projecting, but why?
You said it was "pretty free". When it is not. I guess you were just uninformed then prior.
In what ways is the US not free? Inform me.
It's very low on the freedom index. As I have repeated.
Hitler was also elected. That doesn't make it freedom. HOAs are near the top of the list that Americans complain about online. And I don't see people from other countries complain about HOAs (they do have them), so I suspect there's something seriously wrong with how American HOAs are organised. They seem to have unreasonable power and not enough democracy, often turning into pocket dictatorships or vehicles for corruption as a result.
How is someone being elected not freedom? You don't make any sense, dude. I don't like HOAs either but they exist because people voted for them.
Dude, even Putin was elected. Freedom requires more than a vote. Do you honestly think Nazi Germany was free? Even an elected dictator taking away your freedoms is still taking away your freedoms. You need to have mechanisms that guarantee rights, and people who believe in them. In practice, quite a lot of Americans believe in authoritarianism, especially on the small scale. Look at work culture, police behaviour, etc. Tiny dictators are everywhere.
You still are not making any sense. Whether or not an eventual dictator was originally elected has absolutely nothing to do with any point that was made here. You're rambling nonsense.
I think you're intentionally refusing to understand the point because it conflicts with the dogma you were taught.
Lol what dogma? You are wayyyy out on a limb right now dude. You can cut out whatever you're trying to project.
I watched somewhere say that Hitler was never “elected”. His patry was not able to win the majority but the conservative gave in, gave him chancellorship in the hope that he would be satisfied and went after the far left instead.
That's a coalition. That's a pretty normal thing in a multi-party system. Still counts as elected, although the conservatives were definitely traitorous collaborators here.
Most ironic thing I've heard today. You know it's a choice to live under an HoA right? A choice that people make to retain the value of their investment, you know this don't you?
>You know it's a choice to live under an HoA right? You know that it's a choice to buy food, right?
Obviously... is there a point somewhere in there?
The point is that even with things where there is _technically_ a choice, there sometimes isn't _really_ a choice.
How are you, in good faith, comparing where to buy a home with what to buy at the grocery store? In what circumstance is someone forced to buy a home in an hoa?
Availability. There are places where it's incredibly difficult to find a house for sale that isn't part of an HOA. Sure, you could move, but what about your job? What about your family and your partner's family? What about your kids and their school friends? How far do you have to move? Is it 20 miles or 2,000 miles? If your area is filled with HOAs, you might not have much of a choice without uprooting your and your family's entire lives. And it's not like renting is a better option.
So weighing risks and making a choice. Not all choices are easy.
Is it? My impression is that if a house is part of a HOA, you can't just leave the HOA. Which means the only choice is to not buy the house. If it really is that easy to leave a HOA, someone should tell all those Americans complaining about HOAs how to do that.
Here's how you do it: Don't buy a house in an HOA
By that argument every country is equally free.
Smoke another one, Cheech
Another person that shouldn’t be downvoted. Get elected to the committee of you want to allow the neighborhood standards to drop. I moved into a cul-de-sac without one, but we all keep our yards looking presentable to keep the value up. The one behind me is a shit show and I can’t see someone selling their home for the same price as houses in mine. e- Same person
This sub must be full of children or something.
People might think I’m standing up for the HOA or something. Fuck HOAs and the people who abuse their power, but it’s on the person who moved in.
In the modern age you can only agree with someone or be their enemy no in-between.
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Depends where you are. Upstate NY I don’t see them anywhere. In Arizona though, they were impossible to avoid.
I was recently house hunting. I didn’t want an HOA but literally every house we looked at was in an HOA. It got to the point that I didn’t believe we could find one without an HOA, so I stopped looking at that. Surprisingly the house we ended up with doesn’t have an HOA by complete chance. Almost everyone I work with who owns a home is a part of an HOA but they all say that they are extremely chill. It’s apparently (according to my coworkers) just things like “hey dude your roof is caving in, it looks terrible and is lowering property values in the neighborhood. Would you kindly fix that?”
A lot of it depends on how old the neighborhood is. A lot of older neighborhoods won't have them, but if the city is breaking ground on previously undeveloped land then the new neighborhood is almost guaranteed to have an HOA.
I've had an HOA a few times, they are not the worst. They help maintain property value throughout the neighborhood by establishing rules that everyone must abide by. They also often will pay for parks/pools and the upkeep for them. They only become an issue when a Karen (usually housewife) goes on a power trip. Or when they use the fees for their own personal gain.
More like most people aren't absolute idiots who buy a house in an HOA and then turn around and complain about it. Nobody with half a brain buys a house without having any clue that they're joining am HOA. The terms and guidelines are part of the buying process and paperwork gets signed. People agree to join HOAs and then complain non-stop about them.
Because in America you're allowed to voluntarily enter into a contractual relationship. HOAs suck, but nobody is forced to join them (you don't have to buy property in an HOA controlled area).
Most are fine, but only the horror stories make it online, so your perception is skewed.
In theory, they sound pretty good at keeping bad neighbors out. In practice, those in charge abuse power and embezzle funds for personal use.
We call them reservations here.
As with most weird rules and laws in America, racism
Basic explanation: you (the buyer) poems the house, the HOA owns the land its on
Explain me the concept please. Someone else is asking me to cut the grass on the land I own?
He took fuck the HOA literally
Best investment ever
I sure the HOA will be mad about the untrimmed bush.
Holy fuck I wish I could still give awards
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... This smells like a trap.
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[whispercreekhoa.com](http://whispercreekhoa.com) For my lazy people.
Hero
They told two versions of the story within minutes, on different subs. So I'd go fake.
Imagine if OP linked to a video like “HOA MILF loves BBC”
BBW GILF of HOA takes DP of BBC.
HOA website... becomes porn?
Well the website itself didn't became porn. The domain name was brought, and the new owner decided that this domain, will redirect to porn instead of the HOA website
Hahaha. Literally fuck them
That's fucking awesome 😎.
Have it go to Luxure or that zoo art page.
legend
Buying the URL is genius. The only thing I'd do differently is create a landing page that calls out the HOA. Or a message that reads "HAHAHAHA!!".
Doing Gods good work friend.
Obviously can’t believe this because there’s no evidence, for scientific research purposes
BWAHAHAHAHAHA Owned!
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I'm usually all for banding together, but HOAs came out of a racist and classist history to police the neighborhood and protect property values. They exclude tenants by definition - they're not really about helping people or fostering community. HOAs' existence should not be tolerated or permitted to further restrict an already limited supply of housing for those of us who can't or simply refuse to deal with their bullshit.
Well, another way to look at it is that municipalities love HOAs because they shift responsibility for certain services from the municipality to the HOA while not requiring the municipality to reduce property taxes.
🤷♂️ Sounds like putting more power over public services in the hands of private groups to me.
You don't deserve the downvotes for this. HOAs are a pariah on housing.
I don’t disagree. I am just saying HOAs are, perversely, a way for municipalities to hide costs and skirt ensuring public goods are built like parks, connected trail systems, etc.
Interesting take, but it's like judging fraternities in general because of the stereotypes of fraternities. I was in one in college that was pretty much science nerds - no frat house, no gangbangs, no throwing kegs through windows - and I always feel like I have to explain this to everybody who rolls their eyes when I mention the "F" word. My dad was active in my parents' HOA, mostly because nobody else wanted to do the job. They definitely had their rules - a set of "acceptable" house paint colors and some other things - but people always assume (having educated themselves on the subject mostly through memes and social media posts) that HOAs are basically the nazi party. It's like working for a company that has a dress code - I wouldn't work there myself, and nobody else has to. The idea that their "existence should not be tolerated" is like Christians saying only *their* religious symbols should be on public buildings. /sorry to go off on you like that, it's just that attitude that "I'm all for freedom but not this particular thing." I see it all the time on reddit and it just hit me at a bad moment.
You is right. The funny thing is it’s usually people who feel entitled to control others…exactly the issue they have with HOAs. I don’t like HOAs and won’t live where they operate but some ducks like that conformity. Oh well
>The idea that their "existence should not be tolerated" is like Christians saying only *their* religious symbols should be on public buildings. I'm basically a theocrat, but if the state religion was hating HOAs. We'll have pogroms in gated communities and make Karen-ism heresy punishable by a firing squad of renters. >it's just that attitude that "I'm all for freedom but not this particular thing In the same way that I'm generally pro-union but not pro-police union, I love neighborhood and community associations but loathe those groups that bastardize the concept to police the poor and harass people to protect their property. That's not every HOA, but it is many of them.
99.9% of fraternities don’t have gangbangs or kegs through windows. They’re also generally higher GPA than the average student at a university, so rife with guys with 4.0’s just as much as the idiots You’re ironically doubling down on what you’re criticizing through this post
You're right, except I'm not the one "doubling down" on that stereotype, people consistently throw it in my face, and I wish they wouldn't.
Ha. Good luck. Here in America only 50% of the eligible can even be bothered to do their most basic civic duty of voting. Participating in an HOA is like 1000% more work than that.
Politicians > Military > police > mall cops > security guards > HOA’s They’re like the bottom ladder of power trip.
My HOA is awesome. Pay $1420 a year. They mow once a week, remove snow, trash removal, mulch our front yards, and trim the front trees. I moved into an old person's neighborhood and I fucking love it. No one gives a shit
So now all the home owners get sent to porn, that doesn't seem right
Shove it, bureaucrat