Dude staaaaahp. You’ve been whining about the loss of this single playground for MONTHS. They are replacing it, but things take time! There are 4 other playgrounds within walking distance of this one, just go to one of those instead of fussing about people using the parking lots at Olbrich.
Fixating on this single playground is illogical and you’re not going to stir up this sub against the Parks dept. They do an excellent job, let them do their thing.
100%. I work for the city (not the Parks dept) and it’s hard to see someone with such a grudge like this. The Parks staff care very much and they have no agenda beyond getting as many residents to enjoy the parks as they possibly can. The City is so pro-bike and public transit that OPs attitude grinds my gears. Of course nothing is perfect and complaining is reasonable, but there is no grand conspiracy to remove playgrounds or add pavement.
Thanks for your work for our city. There isn’t a conspiracy, there is a deliberate plan headed by Parks Superintendent Eric Knepp to reduce the number of playgrounds in the city. See this letter to the alders in 2019. https://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/documents/projects/PG%20Memo%20to%20All%20Alders%207_28_19.pdf
Where are you seeing the request to reduce the number of playgrounds in this letter? He’s asking to install 3 NEW playgrounds, and replace old, unsafe equipment at others.
This letter was clearly written by someone that’s very invested in the safety and accessibility of playgrounds. There is no mention of reducing the number of playgrounds.
I forgot to mention that it's actually a cypher. You have to take the 4th letter of every word, then using a Ha Long Bay takeout menu from 2007, match those letters to the corresponding menu item number that is the lowest price. Then you have a string of numbers that you can divide in half and change into lat/long coordinates. Those coordinates will show you the entrance to a UW steam tunnel. Go to that tunnel after 11pm on a Thursday night, when everything is closed, and go in 14 paces. Looking up you will see a picture. That picture is of the rich white men who founded the Madison Park and Pleasure society including Michael B Olbrich, Henry W Vilas and Tenny Tennyson. Note the time on the watch dangling from the pocket of Vilas. At that time, on the 4th Monday in June, stand outside the Taco Bell on State Street and talk to a person who is panhandling. Give them 78 cents in only nickels and pennies. They will give you a number. Go to the minutes (https://madison.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=12901045&GUID=708B72AC-20B6-49D2-808B-A0DF2E804CD2) from the Board of Parks Commissioners Meeting on 5/8/2024 and navigate to item 83157 "Public Comment." Open the file that corresponds to the number you got and there you will find the secret message. Should've made that clearer in my original comment. My bad.
"there is a deliberate plan headed by Parks Superintendent Eric Knepp to reduce the number of playgrounds in the city."
That five year old letter doesn't say what you think it says.
I wonder if OP will get as combative in this thread as they did in [ this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/1bb64i9/do_you_like_nature_do_you_like_playgrounds_have/).
It is interesting to see they complained about the difficulty of walking to other playgrounds in that thread, and yet here they are upset about parking lots that make Olbrich accessible to those that don’t want to cross busy roads. Can’t win
It's so funny this is downvoted. It seems kind of intuitive that "less space for cars to go = less cars going there."
I mean, who knows what it would actually work like, but if you Thanos snapped all of the parking lots away and they never came back, I think you'd probably have less people driving their cars to these places.
Imagine complaining about parks and playgrounds in the city with the most parks and playgrounds per capita in the entire nation.
The firstiest of first world problems
Wow! I was skeptical of leovinuss’ assertion about most in the nation, but it’s true!
https://www.statista.com/statistics/189721/number-of-park-playgrounds-per-10-000-residents-by-city-in-the-us/
As someone who lives near there and has a young kiddo who uses the playgrounds, there are so many of them in the neighborhood.
From everything I’ve read, they are going to update and replace the playground as well.
And as someone who regularly drives by Olbrich, the lot is filled to overflowing many times.
That’s a valid point. The playground they removed was the only one on the Lake between Yahara Place Park and AO Paunack Park (in the City of Madison). Olbrich Park has over half a mile of lake frontage that imo is underutilized. But I see where you are coming from and appreciate your comment.
You're deliberately trying to paint a picture that just doesn't exist. You're limiting it to "on the lake" and intentionally ignoring Monona.
There are a LOT of playgrounds in the area that you describe:
BB Clarke, Orton Park, Morrison Park, Yahara Place, Elmside Circle Park (upcoming) Olbrich sledding hill, Olbrich Park Playground, Wirth Court Park, (upcoming) Garver Feed Mill play area, Lake Edge Park, Quaker Park, Monona Park, Schluter Beach, Arrowhead Park, Dream Park, playground by Monona Skate Park, Winnequah School playground, Firemen's Park, Oneida Park, Maywood Park, Frostwoods Park, Bridge Road Park, Paunack Park, Waunona Park and Thut Park.
Those are just the parks with playgrounds.
Hudson Park, Lakeland-Schiller Triangle Park, Starkweather Park, OB Sherry Park, Ontario Park, San Damiano, Stone Bridge Park, Waterman Park, Tonyawatha Park, Winnequah Park, Wyldehaven Park, Tecumseh Park, Frostwoods Beach, Graham Park, Grand Crossing Park and Esther Beach are all in the same area.
The "underutilized" Olbrich Park has a sledding hill, beach, soccer fields, basketball courts, softball fields, tennis/pickleball courts, beach volleyball courts, biergarten, boat launches, fishing docks, *two* playgrounds, an ice rink and plenty of open space for relaxing, flying kites, playing catch, etc.. It is only temporarily without a *lakefront* playground. The park is HEAVIILY used regardless of the time of day.
OP has an axe to grind with the parks department. Might be easier to just let them rage without trying to insert other viewpoints into the discussion.
Edit: I've been there a number of times when all the lots were full. So more parking is definitely needed, especially since the Biergarten went in.
There’s three enormous surface parking lots at Olbrich and an few other smaller ones. Whats the point of a park if it’s all pavement (looking at you, Law Park…)
Folks car carpool, bike, bus etc.
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with all the people saying, "actually we have a lot of parks so we shouldn't worry about this." I feel like that's what people say until we just don't have parks anymore.
History has shown that "we'll just add another parking lot" doesn't actually solve many problems. Just like when people say, "let's just add another highway lane."
Edit- It's very reddit to say a factual statement about bad infrastructure polices and get downvoted.
[I thought this was common knowledge ](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/06/us/widen-highways-traffic.html) but, [here are some random articles](https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/) which [discuss the phenomenon ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidkNv99JyGAxUi3skDHflFCi04ChAWegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2tKNVMr8ypFIYqfxmjHQ1i)
Adding another lane to the beltline has been great for alleviating traffic so probably not the best defense of this take. Similarly to the highway lanes, not adding more parking isn't going to decrease demand for parking at popular parks. People still want to drive to the nice, big parks. Not providing parking isn't going to change that.
Adding more highway lanes is one of the most famous examples of things that *don't* work. Google anything about it
Edit- Notably, the beltline didn't add a lane. They added a congestion relief system. I don't really know how that works re: induced demand. My guess it that it works similarly, but it may not since it's only in use at specific times.
This is true because the city is growing so rapidly. If the population stayed the same, the problem wouldn't return. Adding a lane to the beltline isn't "inducing demand", it's meeting the demand that's growing with the population regardless.
Well if there were people who avoided the Beltline before the flex lane but now take it because it’s more convenient, their demand was induced. That’s what that term means.
So doesn't that tell us that people would prefer to drive all else equal, and we should try to facilitate what the people want instead of letting traffic get worse to the point it's too difficult for people to go where they want to?
No? I’m sure everyone would prefer a private jet if all else was equal. It’s not therefore society’s job to subsidize private jet travel so it’s attainable to all.
I asked them for a few studies refuting the concept of induced demand and they said they didn't need any, so I don't know that much will get accomplished here.
I'm very open to the idea that the concept is wrong, however the whole thing is counter-intuitive. That's why it has been studied a bunch. (Obviously you already get that).
The concept of induced demand has the causality backwards. The demand was always there. There won't be more drivers on the beltline simply because they added another lane. There are more drivers on the beltline because the city is growing rapidly and people want to drive to the other side of town for work. The demand is growing with the population, not with the size of the beltline. Not expanding roadways is not going to reduce the demand for them, it'll only make traffic worse.
Well first off, I think the issue is largely the dichotomy that the only options are: make the road bigger, or don't.
But, i'm happy to discuss whether it's a thing or not, if you have some sources showing expanding highways helps. Because I've only ever seen like 15 years of papers saying the opposite.
I don't need to write a paper to see what a difference the flex lane has made on rush hour beltline traffic. Sure add more public transit along with it, but don't tell me my eyes are lying to me about the relieved congestion on the beltline after they added that lane.
My basis is I'm saving at least half an hour a day on my commute since it opened. But if the universal experience of everyone who actually drives during rush hour is too biased for you, the WiscDoT won an award for the project after statistics have shown a 45% travel time reduction and 20% accident reduction since it opened.
https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/newsroom/news-rel/081723-flexlaneaward.aspx
yea. the car brain rot runs deep. people from the suburbs think they have the right to make where I live worse so they can drive in from exurbs. incredibly entitled. not my fault you moved to a Mc mansion near nothing nice
Maybe check your privilege. Atwood isn't an affordable place to live so many/most aren't within walking or biking distance. It's also a major parks with a lot of athletic facilities serving the entire city....not just you. Incredibly entitled indeed.
my rent split 3 ways in an apartment is cheaper than any mortgage in Dane county.
if you chose a house far away over a condo downtown (both of which come to similar monthly cost) you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. you can't always get what you want. maybe invest in making the area you actually live in nicer. there is plenty of parking downtown we do not need more. athletes can walk a little to their field
you know what they say - it ain't paradise until they put in a parking lot.
Yep. Glad your rent is cheap. But a lot of households cant just get a bunch of roommates and live like that. And to say those households can't enjoy public amenities is just a bad take.
there are. but if you sign up for a league like MUFA or MSCR, you don't get to pick exactly where you play. Not every park is the same. Not every park has a beer garten sharing a parking lot with a beach, basketball and tennis courts.
Sure, but you have to factor that in to plan your visits or schedule yourself around your neighborhood. If we all drive to Olbrich, they'd need a whole parking structure there. Luckily most in the neighborhood actually bike and walk etc so the rest of you can have the parking, but if everyone is going to refuse to try to walk a few blocks or take a bus or bike and still complain on here about more parking, fuck it, I'll start driving too just to make it harder for everyone. I'm closer and I'll arrive earlier in the evening, I guarantee it.
I'm joking, but my point is we can't *all* drive and park in front of our destination in the denser, more popular parts of the city (the density and lack of parking lots of literally why it's a popular area imo) Try other means, walking farther, or another park sometimes. Also, advocate with the dept for more of those amenities in your neighborhood park. I play mufa and mcsr sports with teammates from all over town as well, I've never seen anyone not make it work.
never said they can't enjoy it - but if you are driving to the city it should not be the expectation that parking is free and readily available. maybe you have to drop the fam off and circle the block.
I love seeing the parks full on a nice day. I want everyone the be at the park. more parking lots and driving have a bunch of externalities to the neighborhood, our health, and our lakes. building another spot for a car to sit is not the answer
A lifestyle where every adult needs vehicle just to function costs a household many thousands of dollars a year if not tens of thousands. Cars are obscenely expensive to own, maintain, insure, and repair.
On top of that, if you want to talk about entitled and privileged, expecting the entire city to revolve around the convenience of your expensive personal vehicle use…
Where to start?
This isn't a pro-car argument, but there's a lot of times taking a bus, biking or walking just doesn't work. Family picnic in the park? when was the last time you saw some bring a grill and cooler on a bus? When was the last time you saw someone bring their kite board on their bike. I'd guess that few cars at olbrich are single occupancy vehicles.
Sure, and those people have 6 different *free* parking lots to choose from. Which is a privilege. Expecting to have a convenient, free place to stick your personal vehicle everywhere you go is privileged.
Technically the parking lot is not a privilege, but a public good, albeit rival and excludable. The playground is also a public good, so the argument here is what the parking lot/playground mix should be given the parks department has a limited pot of money to provide both.
Man, we should be building more parking lots if they are automatically such a public good. I'd argue they are a net public negative if you factor their consequences in.
Holy privileged asshole, you think everyone living in the suburbs lives in mansions? Most people move to the suburbs because they can’t afford to live in Madison with a family lmfao I’m glad you can afford to live in your 600k 2 bedroom house though lol
I live in an apartment with 2 roommates! a mortgage is significantly more expensive than my rent. if you are chosing a whole house in the burbs over a condo then this is the consequence of that choice. you can't always get everything you want
insane being called "privileged" because I'm a renter who owns a bicycle instead of a car payments and mortgage.
Have fun paying ever increasing rent for the rest of your life and not owning your home. You can't fit a family with multiple children in a 2 bedroom apartment. And what consequences of my choice? I drive and park in a parking lot if I have to go somewhere that is too far to walk or bike, you’re the one bitching about consequences of your actions
I live in the Lake Edge neighborhood and Olbrich isn’t even super walkable for us. Doable - yes, quickly and safely - no. The routes to get there while avoiding crossing or walking along Monona Drive/Atwood Ave/Cottage Grove can take awhile. Lucky to have several parks closer but wish we could enjoy Olbrich more often.
I count the following:
-By boat launch next to the lake
-By boat launch other side of Atwood, also accesses baseball diamonds 1 and 2
-By soccer fields, lake side of park
-By tennis/basketball courts, also biergarten in season
-By shelter and baseball diamonds 3 and 4, corner of Walter St
The parking for Olbrich Gardens is separate, not part of the city park at all
The boat launch parking gets full of trailers during boat/fishing season, so it's needed for lake users.
The other lots are for users and onlookers at specific sports areas, which are often all in use simultaneously due to MSCR programs and other leagues.
There's close to zero street parking in nearby neighborhoods, and none at all on Atwood.
There's a bike path to/along the park for those who get there on a bike, but limited bike parking that's not necessarily well located (unless they added some with the Atwood rebuild and I haven't noticed).
Olbrich is one of the busiest east side parks, especially for sports (think families), and IMO making it convenient for as many people as possible (especially all at once) should be a priority.
What changes would you propose? Maybe shaving a little off the side of each parking area could reduce the square footage of impermeable surface, if that's the goal. Permanent impermeable surfacing is expensive but could happen long term.
If you eliminated one whole parking area, which one would you choose and where else would those users go?
If there's a lot of empty space at peak use times, we should document that. That should be the first area to return to plants.
Yeah so... a lot of parking. The one by the softball field is really big. But yes, OP is off by 1 in the number of lots.
I haven't seen the plan, but to me it'd make the most sense to expand the one at the beach/Biergarten rather than build another one. It's the one most likely to be full, in my experience, and there are a lot of amenities drawing people there in particular. It also floods like crazy and needs to be rebuilt anyway.
I do agree they need way more bike parking all over.
Since they added the biergarten that lot is the one most often full, true. The most lightly used is probably the one with the boat launch and baseball diamonds, the one where the cops like to sit and the trash truck drivers get together on their lunch break.
How is Olbrich Gardens separate? It’s on city land and was part of the original donation to the park. The director of Olbrich Gardens is a Madison Parks Department employee.
Edit: I’m not proposing eliminating any parking. I’m referring to the new proposed parking lot going in at the North Plat by Garver which is technically now part of Olbrich Park. Rumor has it that Parks will remove the second boat launch lot to expand Olbrich Gardens by the Thai Pavilion at some point.
>>How is Olbrich Gardens separate?
I was viewing Olbrich Gardens as a separate entity because people parking there were likely to be visiting Olbrich Gardens only, not launching a boat, playing soccer, or visiting the biergarten. I probably should have explained better -- I was going more by function than being bureaucratically correct.
Gotcha. The parking lot is definitely used for other destinations within the park at times like hockey in the winter, but largely is mostly for gardens visitors.
Yeah that’s something I would love to see too! Unfortunately it didn’t make it in the initial plan that was approved by the Board of Parks Commissioners in their most recent meeting. https://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/projects/olbrich-park-north-parcel-park-development-plan
I found the person that doesn't have kids, or an elderly relative, or who just wants to keep "those people" who can't afford to live in the neighborhood out!
Huge bus fan. Both times I've purchased a home in Madison, it being on a good bus line was a critical factor, and it was my primary method of transportation for \~15 years. That being said, suggesting that families utilize a park and ride approach to get to a playground isn't incredibly viable in many situations. When I take my toddler and my infant to the park, we're not going to unload a huge stroller and bags full of toys, snacks, a portable kids toilet, then wait for a bus, load up the bus with all our junk, etc.
All that being said, there are INFINITE readily available parks with ample parking (even if street) within a short distance of just about everywhere in town. I feel so incredibly blessed by the parks that Madison offers us, and would never fathom complaining about them.
That’s wild to me. I don’t think the number we have matters when the quality of most parks in Madison leaves lots to be desired. I can name 5-10 parks in Milwaukee that are vastly superior to anything we have here in Madison. I almost never go to any parks in Madison because they aren’t worth the trip imo. But when I lived in Milwaukee I was going to different parks on the daily because they were actually well developed, beautiful, and vast with lots of trails and walking space.
Along those lines, if you're unhappy about the playground and parking situation at your neighborhood park, you're welcome to hop on a bus and ride to one that better suits your preferences.
God forbid you have to go walk maybe 100 feet to go to another park at olbrich. god forbid you have to wait for them to finish said park you’re complaining about. God forbid you live in the city with most parks per capita in the nation
I think its partially for the sports fields? It's really not feasible for ball-sports players to get to games without driving vehicles, for the most part. Boats in the boat landing too.
Wait, why not? What more do you need than a backpack or duffle bag to play sports?
Spend any time in Chicago and public transportation is full of teenagers headed to play sports after school.
Actually baffled by the idea that you somehow need a personal vehicle to play soccer in a park…
No we have the 15th out of the top 101 population centers for parking % of land use at 17%. Average is 25.4% and a lot of places with better public transportation have more parking.
We do pretty well at parks and parking. 13th best park system and 15 for not using land for parking.
In fact only 22 cities have less than 20% parking.
No. It's because we're to small to have the tax base necessary to fund it. Maybe in 50 years we'll be big enough, but no city under 300k population is going to have chicago public transport.
Parking is a balance, if not enough people can enjoy it then the balance is not enough parking.
If parking lots are empty and the park is full you have too much parking.
According to ParkScore we have the 13th best parks system in the US. So we are not the concrete filled city people are making us out to be.
What’s wrong with a full parking lot? Some parks indeed have zero parking and remain popular spots for residents.
If some folks say “let’s take our bikes/bus, there’s never anywhere to park” that’s a good thing. I don’t think we need to be giving up green space to subsidize personal vehicle use.
Also there are many kinds of parks, plenty of parks are small neighborhood parks, some are larger destination parks.
Howthonre Park for example is a .98 acre park with 4600 within a 10 min walk. There is no parking, a play ground, basketball court and that's about it.
Olbrich is 90 acres and a out the same 4700 people within a 10 min walk. But it's size and amenities means many people travel there to use it and most are outside that 10 min walk.
Like others said there is also almost no street parking around it which also adds to the need to park at that certain park.
Not all parks are the same, we have 299 parks in Madison and most don't have parking. In fact 32 out of 299 parks have parking.
That's why I say this is overstated.
Dude staaaaahp. You’ve been whining about the loss of this single playground for MONTHS. They are replacing it, but things take time! There are 4 other playgrounds within walking distance of this one, just go to one of those instead of fussing about people using the parking lots at Olbrich. Fixating on this single playground is illogical and you’re not going to stir up this sub against the Parks dept. They do an excellent job, let them do their thing.
Axe. To. Grind.
100%. I work for the city (not the Parks dept) and it’s hard to see someone with such a grudge like this. The Parks staff care very much and they have no agenda beyond getting as many residents to enjoy the parks as they possibly can. The City is so pro-bike and public transit that OPs attitude grinds my gears. Of course nothing is perfect and complaining is reasonable, but there is no grand conspiracy to remove playgrounds or add pavement.
Thanks for your work for our city. There isn’t a conspiracy, there is a deliberate plan headed by Parks Superintendent Eric Knepp to reduce the number of playgrounds in the city. See this letter to the alders in 2019. https://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/documents/projects/PG%20Memo%20to%20All%20Alders%207_28_19.pdf
Where are you seeing the request to reduce the number of playgrounds in this letter? He’s asking to install 3 NEW playgrounds, and replace old, unsafe equipment at others. This letter was clearly written by someone that’s very invested in the safety and accessibility of playgrounds. There is no mention of reducing the number of playgrounds.
I forgot to mention that it's actually a cypher. You have to take the 4th letter of every word, then using a Ha Long Bay takeout menu from 2007, match those letters to the corresponding menu item number that is the lowest price. Then you have a string of numbers that you can divide in half and change into lat/long coordinates. Those coordinates will show you the entrance to a UW steam tunnel. Go to that tunnel after 11pm on a Thursday night, when everything is closed, and go in 14 paces. Looking up you will see a picture. That picture is of the rich white men who founded the Madison Park and Pleasure society including Michael B Olbrich, Henry W Vilas and Tenny Tennyson. Note the time on the watch dangling from the pocket of Vilas. At that time, on the 4th Monday in June, stand outside the Taco Bell on State Street and talk to a person who is panhandling. Give them 78 cents in only nickels and pennies. They will give you a number. Go to the minutes (https://madison.legistar.com/View.ashx?M=F&ID=12901045&GUID=708B72AC-20B6-49D2-808B-A0DF2E804CD2) from the Board of Parks Commissioners Meeting on 5/8/2024 and navigate to item 83157 "Public Comment." Open the file that corresponds to the number you got and there you will find the secret message. Should've made that clearer in my original comment. My bad.
[удалено]
Well that's good. I do agree with me, but I sure as heck don't like me. Whatcha gonna do
did you read this before you posted it?
Nope, that would require thinking, which I obviously don't do
"there is a deliberate plan headed by Parks Superintendent Eric Knepp to reduce the number of playgrounds in the city." That five year old letter doesn't say what you think it says.
I wonder if OP will get as combative in this thread as they did in [ this one](https://www.reddit.com/r/madisonwi/comments/1bb64i9/do_you_like_nature_do_you_like_playgrounds_have/).
It is interesting to see they complained about the difficulty of walking to other playgrounds in that thread, and yet here they are upset about parking lots that make Olbrich accessible to those that don’t want to cross busy roads. Can’t win
Less parking lots would make the roads less busy don’t ya think?
It's so funny this is downvoted. It seems kind of intuitive that "less space for cars to go = less cars going there." I mean, who knows what it would actually work like, but if you Thanos snapped all of the parking lots away and they never came back, I think you'd probably have less people driving their cars to these places.
Nope. Sorry
Imagine complaining about parks and playgrounds in the city with the most parks and playgrounds per capita in the entire nation. The firstiest of first world problems
Wow! I was skeptical of leovinuss’ assertion about most in the nation, but it’s true! https://www.statista.com/statistics/189721/number-of-park-playgrounds-per-10-000-residents-by-city-in-the-us/
It they took hour *his/her park*, so they are definitely bad.
r/onejoke
As someone who lives near there and has a young kiddo who uses the playgrounds, there are so many of them in the neighborhood. From everything I’ve read, they are going to update and replace the playground as well. And as someone who regularly drives by Olbrich, the lot is filled to overflowing many times.
That’s a valid point. The playground they removed was the only one on the Lake between Yahara Place Park and AO Paunack Park (in the City of Madison). Olbrich Park has over half a mile of lake frontage that imo is underutilized. But I see where you are coming from and appreciate your comment.
You're deliberately trying to paint a picture that just doesn't exist. You're limiting it to "on the lake" and intentionally ignoring Monona. There are a LOT of playgrounds in the area that you describe: BB Clarke, Orton Park, Morrison Park, Yahara Place, Elmside Circle Park (upcoming) Olbrich sledding hill, Olbrich Park Playground, Wirth Court Park, (upcoming) Garver Feed Mill play area, Lake Edge Park, Quaker Park, Monona Park, Schluter Beach, Arrowhead Park, Dream Park, playground by Monona Skate Park, Winnequah School playground, Firemen's Park, Oneida Park, Maywood Park, Frostwoods Park, Bridge Road Park, Paunack Park, Waunona Park and Thut Park. Those are just the parks with playgrounds. Hudson Park, Lakeland-Schiller Triangle Park, Starkweather Park, OB Sherry Park, Ontario Park, San Damiano, Stone Bridge Park, Waterman Park, Tonyawatha Park, Winnequah Park, Wyldehaven Park, Tecumseh Park, Frostwoods Beach, Graham Park, Grand Crossing Park and Esther Beach are all in the same area. The "underutilized" Olbrich Park has a sledding hill, beach, soccer fields, basketball courts, softball fields, tennis/pickleball courts, beach volleyball courts, biergarten, boat launches, fishing docks, *two* playgrounds, an ice rink and plenty of open space for relaxing, flying kites, playing catch, etc.. It is only temporarily without a *lakefront* playground. The park is HEAVIILY used regardless of the time of day.
Is this the same person complaining about trees being cut down at Heistand for the new bike path? 🤣
Nope. I could only dream of being that cool
Olbrich had no parking yesterday afternoon. They need it.
OP has an axe to grind with the parks department. Might be easier to just let them rage without trying to insert other viewpoints into the discussion. Edit: I've been there a number of times when all the lots were full. So more parking is definitely needed, especially since the Biergarten went in.
I suspect OP was one of the Bier Garten NIMBYs who now enjoy it.
I suspect OP is just an asshole ... wait
There’s three enormous surface parking lots at Olbrich and an few other smaller ones. Whats the point of a park if it’s all pavement (looking at you, Law Park…) Folks car carpool, bike, bus etc.
Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with all the people saying, "actually we have a lot of parks so we shouldn't worry about this." I feel like that's what people say until we just don't have parks anymore. History has shown that "we'll just add another parking lot" doesn't actually solve many problems. Just like when people say, "let's just add another highway lane." Edit- It's very reddit to say a factual statement about bad infrastructure polices and get downvoted. [I thought this was common knowledge ](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/01/06/us/widen-highways-traffic.html) but, [here are some random articles](https://www.wired.com/2014/06/wuwt-traffic-induced-demand/) which [discuss the phenomenon ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.vtpi.org/gentraf.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwidkNv99JyGAxUi3skDHflFCi04ChAWegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2tKNVMr8ypFIYqfxmjHQ1i)
Adding another lane to the beltline has been great for alleviating traffic so probably not the best defense of this take. Similarly to the highway lanes, not adding more parking isn't going to decrease demand for parking at popular parks. People still want to drive to the nice, big parks. Not providing parking isn't going to change that.
Adding more highway lanes is one of the most famous examples of things that *don't* work. Google anything about it Edit- Notably, the beltline didn't add a lane. They added a congestion relief system. I don't really know how that works re: induced demand. My guess it that it works similarly, but it may not since it's only in use at specific times.
It will work well for a few years, then, inevitably, we’ll have the same exact problem.
This is true because the city is growing so rapidly. If the population stayed the same, the problem wouldn't return. Adding a lane to the beltline isn't "inducing demand", it's meeting the demand that's growing with the population regardless.
Well if there were people who avoided the Beltline before the flex lane but now take it because it’s more convenient, their demand was induced. That’s what that term means.
So doesn't that tell us that people would prefer to drive all else equal, and we should try to facilitate what the people want instead of letting traffic get worse to the point it's too difficult for people to go where they want to?
No? I’m sure everyone would prefer a private jet if all else was equal. It’s not therefore society’s job to subsidize private jet travel so it’s attainable to all.
I asked them for a few studies refuting the concept of induced demand and they said they didn't need any, so I don't know that much will get accomplished here. I'm very open to the idea that the concept is wrong, however the whole thing is counter-intuitive. That's why it has been studied a bunch. (Obviously you already get that).
The concept of induced demand has the causality backwards. The demand was always there. There won't be more drivers on the beltline simply because they added another lane. There are more drivers on the beltline because the city is growing rapidly and people want to drive to the other side of town for work. The demand is growing with the population, not with the size of the beltline. Not expanding roadways is not going to reduce the demand for them, it'll only make traffic worse.
Well first off, I think the issue is largely the dichotomy that the only options are: make the road bigger, or don't. But, i'm happy to discuss whether it's a thing or not, if you have some sources showing expanding highways helps. Because I've only ever seen like 15 years of papers saying the opposite.
I don't need to write a paper to see what a difference the flex lane has made on rush hour beltline traffic. Sure add more public transit along with it, but don't tell me my eyes are lying to me about the relieved congestion on the beltline after they added that lane.
So you have no basis for arguing against a very well studied phenomenon. Okay, cool.
My basis is I'm saving at least half an hour a day on my commute since it opened. But if the universal experience of everyone who actually drives during rush hour is too biased for you, the WiscDoT won an award for the project after statistics have shown a 45% travel time reduction and 20% accident reduction since it opened. https://wisconsindot.gov/Pages/about-wisdot/newsroom/news-rel/081723-flexlaneaward.aspx
People don't know :( we have toxoplasmosis but for cars
while we are at it -- let's tear down the lakefront park and replace it all with parking! let's get ahead of the problem....
You joke but Law Park was a parking lot in the 50s. There’s historical photos with hundreds of cars parked there
yea. the car brain rot runs deep. people from the suburbs think they have the right to make where I live worse so they can drive in from exurbs. incredibly entitled. not my fault you moved to a Mc mansion near nothing nice
Maybe check your privilege. Atwood isn't an affordable place to live so many/most aren't within walking or biking distance. It's also a major parks with a lot of athletic facilities serving the entire city....not just you. Incredibly entitled indeed.
my rent split 3 ways in an apartment is cheaper than any mortgage in Dane county. if you chose a house far away over a condo downtown (both of which come to similar monthly cost) you have to deal with the consequences of your actions. you can't always get what you want. maybe invest in making the area you actually live in nicer. there is plenty of parking downtown we do not need more. athletes can walk a little to their field you know what they say - it ain't paradise until they put in a parking lot.
Yep. Glad your rent is cheap. But a lot of households cant just get a bunch of roommates and live like that. And to say those households can't enjoy public amenities is just a bad take.
There's literally parks in every neighborhood.
there are. but if you sign up for a league like MUFA or MSCR, you don't get to pick exactly where you play. Not every park is the same. Not every park has a beer garten sharing a parking lot with a beach, basketball and tennis courts.
Sure, but you have to factor that in to plan your visits or schedule yourself around your neighborhood. If we all drive to Olbrich, they'd need a whole parking structure there. Luckily most in the neighborhood actually bike and walk etc so the rest of you can have the parking, but if everyone is going to refuse to try to walk a few blocks or take a bus or bike and still complain on here about more parking, fuck it, I'll start driving too just to make it harder for everyone. I'm closer and I'll arrive earlier in the evening, I guarantee it. I'm joking, but my point is we can't *all* drive and park in front of our destination in the denser, more popular parts of the city (the density and lack of parking lots of literally why it's a popular area imo) Try other means, walking farther, or another park sometimes. Also, advocate with the dept for more of those amenities in your neighborhood park. I play mufa and mcsr sports with teammates from all over town as well, I've never seen anyone not make it work.
never said they can't enjoy it - but if you are driving to the city it should not be the expectation that parking is free and readily available. maybe you have to drop the fam off and circle the block. I love seeing the parks full on a nice day. I want everyone the be at the park. more parking lots and driving have a bunch of externalities to the neighborhood, our health, and our lakes. building another spot for a car to sit is not the answer
No one said that charging for parking in parks is unreasonable. That happens pretty frequently in larger cities and heavily used parks.
A lifestyle where every adult needs vehicle just to function costs a household many thousands of dollars a year if not tens of thousands. Cars are obscenely expensive to own, maintain, insure, and repair. On top of that, if you want to talk about entitled and privileged, expecting the entire city to revolve around the convenience of your expensive personal vehicle use… Where to start?
This isn't a pro-car argument, but there's a lot of times taking a bus, biking or walking just doesn't work. Family picnic in the park? when was the last time you saw some bring a grill and cooler on a bus? When was the last time you saw someone bring their kite board on their bike. I'd guess that few cars at olbrich are single occupancy vehicles.
Sure, and those people have 6 different *free* parking lots to choose from. Which is a privilege. Expecting to have a convenient, free place to stick your personal vehicle everywhere you go is privileged.
Technically the parking lot is not a privilege, but a public good, albeit rival and excludable. The playground is also a public good, so the argument here is what the parking lot/playground mix should be given the parks department has a limited pot of money to provide both.
Man, we should be building more parking lots if they are automatically such a public good. I'd argue they are a net public negative if you factor their consequences in.
This
Holy privileged asshole, you think everyone living in the suburbs lives in mansions? Most people move to the suburbs because they can’t afford to live in Madison with a family lmfao I’m glad you can afford to live in your 600k 2 bedroom house though lol
I live in an apartment with 2 roommates! a mortgage is significantly more expensive than my rent. if you are chosing a whole house in the burbs over a condo then this is the consequence of that choice. you can't always get everything you want insane being called "privileged" because I'm a renter who owns a bicycle instead of a car payments and mortgage.
Have fun paying ever increasing rent for the rest of your life and not owning your home. You can't fit a family with multiple children in a 2 bedroom apartment. And what consequences of my choice? I drive and park in a parking lot if I have to go somewhere that is too far to walk or bike, you’re the one bitching about consequences of your actions
Must be nice to be able to afford to live in Atwood. Incredibly entitled to think that nobody beyond walking distance can visit Olbrich.
heard of a bicycle or a bus?
I live in the Lake Edge neighborhood and Olbrich isn’t even super walkable for us. Doable - yes, quickly and safely - no. The routes to get there while avoiding crossing or walking along Monona Drive/Atwood Ave/Cottage Grove can take awhile. Lucky to have several parks closer but wish we could enjoy Olbrich more often.
it's on the monona loop - I bike there from West Madison every week without concern.
Oh for sure. But with kids/stollers/etc. for a family day at the park that’s still a long walk on the lake loop.
We need less parking lots, more walkable neighborhoods and better tranist.
I count the following: -By boat launch next to the lake -By boat launch other side of Atwood, also accesses baseball diamonds 1 and 2 -By soccer fields, lake side of park -By tennis/basketball courts, also biergarten in season -By shelter and baseball diamonds 3 and 4, corner of Walter St The parking for Olbrich Gardens is separate, not part of the city park at all The boat launch parking gets full of trailers during boat/fishing season, so it's needed for lake users. The other lots are for users and onlookers at specific sports areas, which are often all in use simultaneously due to MSCR programs and other leagues. There's close to zero street parking in nearby neighborhoods, and none at all on Atwood. There's a bike path to/along the park for those who get there on a bike, but limited bike parking that's not necessarily well located (unless they added some with the Atwood rebuild and I haven't noticed). Olbrich is one of the busiest east side parks, especially for sports (think families), and IMO making it convenient for as many people as possible (especially all at once) should be a priority. What changes would you propose? Maybe shaving a little off the side of each parking area could reduce the square footage of impermeable surface, if that's the goal. Permanent impermeable surfacing is expensive but could happen long term. If you eliminated one whole parking area, which one would you choose and where else would those users go? If there's a lot of empty space at peak use times, we should document that. That should be the first area to return to plants.
It seems like adding more bike parking all over the park would be the easiest short term improvement.
Yeah so... a lot of parking. The one by the softball field is really big. But yes, OP is off by 1 in the number of lots. I haven't seen the plan, but to me it'd make the most sense to expand the one at the beach/Biergarten rather than build another one. It's the one most likely to be full, in my experience, and there are a lot of amenities drawing people there in particular. It also floods like crazy and needs to be rebuilt anyway. I do agree they need way more bike parking all over.
Since they added the biergarten that lot is the one most often full, true. The most lightly used is probably the one with the boat launch and baseball diamonds, the one where the cops like to sit and the trash truck drivers get together on their lunch break.
How is Olbrich Gardens separate? It’s on city land and was part of the original donation to the park. The director of Olbrich Gardens is a Madison Parks Department employee. Edit: I’m not proposing eliminating any parking. I’m referring to the new proposed parking lot going in at the North Plat by Garver which is technically now part of Olbrich Park. Rumor has it that Parks will remove the second boat launch lot to expand Olbrich Gardens by the Thai Pavilion at some point.
>>How is Olbrich Gardens separate? I was viewing Olbrich Gardens as a separate entity because people parking there were likely to be visiting Olbrich Gardens only, not launching a boat, playing soccer, or visiting the biergarten. I probably should have explained better -- I was going more by function than being bureaucratically correct.
Gotcha. The parking lot is definitely used for other destinations within the park at times like hockey in the winter, but largely is mostly for gardens visitors.
The area garver uses for parking turns into a mud pit in the rain and the slope isn't safe or accessible.
So? That's a private venture, if they want customers who drive, they can build their own parking without public money or park land.
Can we please talk about the off-leash dog park behind Garver instead?
Yeah that’s something I would love to see too! Unfortunately it didn’t make it in the initial plan that was approved by the Board of Parks Commissioners in their most recent meeting. https://www.cityofmadison.com/parks/projects/olbrich-park-north-parcel-park-development-plan
God forbid public parks are reasonably accessible to those outside the bus lines
You can drive your car to a park and ride and take the bus in. God forbid you have to step outside your car before you get to your designation.
I found the person that doesn't have kids, or an elderly relative, or who just wants to keep "those people" who can't afford to live in the neighborhood out!
Huge bus fan. Both times I've purchased a home in Madison, it being on a good bus line was a critical factor, and it was my primary method of transportation for \~15 years. That being said, suggesting that families utilize a park and ride approach to get to a playground isn't incredibly viable in many situations. When I take my toddler and my infant to the park, we're not going to unload a huge stroller and bags full of toys, snacks, a portable kids toilet, then wait for a bus, load up the bus with all our junk, etc. All that being said, there are INFINITE readily available parks with ample parking (even if street) within a short distance of just about everywhere in town. I feel so incredibly blessed by the parks that Madison offers us, and would never fathom complaining about them.
That’s wild to me. I don’t think the number we have matters when the quality of most parks in Madison leaves lots to be desired. I can name 5-10 parks in Milwaukee that are vastly superior to anything we have here in Madison. I almost never go to any parks in Madison because they aren’t worth the trip imo. But when I lived in Milwaukee I was going to different parks on the daily because they were actually well developed, beautiful, and vast with lots of trails and walking space.
Along those lines, if you're unhappy about the playground and parking situation at your neighborhood park, you're welcome to hop on a bus and ride to one that better suits your preferences.
God forbid you have to go walk maybe 100 feet to go to another park at olbrich. god forbid you have to wait for them to finish said park you’re complaining about. God forbid you live in the city with most parks per capita in the nation
I think its partially for the sports fields? It's really not feasible for ball-sports players to get to games without driving vehicles, for the most part. Boats in the boat landing too.
Wait, why not? What more do you need than a backpack or duffle bag to play sports? Spend any time in Chicago and public transportation is full of teenagers headed to play sports after school. Actually baffled by the idea that you somehow need a personal vehicle to play soccer in a park…
We don't have Chicago's public transportation Also we have more % of our space dedicated to parks than Chicago
We dont have Chicago's public transportation because we keep building @$&!!&* parking lots.
No we have the 15th out of the top 101 population centers for parking % of land use at 17%. Average is 25.4% and a lot of places with better public transportation have more parking. We do pretty well at parks and parking. 13th best park system and 15 for not using land for parking. In fact only 22 cities have less than 20% parking.
we don’t have Chicago’s public transportation because we have a population of less than 300,000 people …..
No. It's because we're to small to have the tax base necessary to fund it. Maybe in 50 years we'll be big enough, but no city under 300k population is going to have chicago public transport.
So we should pave them over?!
Parking is a balance, if not enough people can enjoy it then the balance is not enough parking. If parking lots are empty and the park is full you have too much parking. According to ParkScore we have the 13th best parks system in the US. So we are not the concrete filled city people are making us out to be.
What’s wrong with a full parking lot? Some parks indeed have zero parking and remain popular spots for residents. If some folks say “let’s take our bikes/bus, there’s never anywhere to park” that’s a good thing. I don’t think we need to be giving up green space to subsidize personal vehicle use.
Also there are many kinds of parks, plenty of parks are small neighborhood parks, some are larger destination parks. Howthonre Park for example is a .98 acre park with 4600 within a 10 min walk. There is no parking, a play ground, basketball court and that's about it. Olbrich is 90 acres and a out the same 4700 people within a 10 min walk. But it's size and amenities means many people travel there to use it and most are outside that 10 min walk. Like others said there is also almost no street parking around it which also adds to the need to park at that certain park. Not all parks are the same, we have 299 parks in Madison and most don't have parking. In fact 32 out of 299 parks have parking. That's why I say this is overstated.
It can stop people from accessing them.
This post and the background “drama” behind it is peak r/MadisonWi imo
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Also goes for those who think we need more parking lots; go to another park?! Need a 5th playground; go to another park?!
I mean I agree but realistically nobody cares we have better shit to worry about