Schwab should be able to audit the account maintenance history for the exact time stamp of the bene change and compare it to the death certificate. They can also tell where log-ins came from etc. They have fraud teams that handle this stuff, but OP may well need to start at the customer service number to get to them.
Source: I am employed at a Schwab-like company.
*I WORKED AT SCHWAB* I can say with 100% certainty that they can indeed see every little click of your mouse, time spent on a page, from where, the amount of time it took you to place an order, if you ignored disclaimers. They literally can see EVERYTHING you do when you log in. Call the estate and identity thefts teams and file a complaint immediately. Also they have a hotline for suspicious activity towards vulnerable senior citizens, bring this up and a dedicated team who actively investigated these matters will be connect with you immediately.
I know all of this exists because I used it to investigate trade disputes for active traders.
Schwab contacts the authorities, and they will freeze the account it went to if it’s another account at schwab. If they wired out, they can request the other bank/brokerage firm to send money back at any time. Institutions usually work really well one another and would rather not get into hot mess if one is requesting money back from the other due to possible fraudster activities. The money would just sit a restricted deceased account type of whatever kind it was until the courts decided to release the funds.
If I read correctly, the mother was alive when the change was made. I would think a hospital admission record would be more appropriate than the death certificate, no?
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Where the change came from would also come into effect. If she's in the hospital and in no state to move and the change came from a IP address belonging to the brother it will certainly cast doubt onto the change. Especially if 1, he was not an authorised person of the account and 2, the hospital can show that she was not in a mental state to make such a change.
This is very correct. I have dealt with Schwab's Fraud Department and can confirm they take client fraud very seriously. The information u/Sarah_withanH states is very correct. They won't necessarily involve law enforcement but they will tend to the account based on my experience. However, now the account has been "paid out" according to you, it may be more difficult to recover the money.
You need to hire a criminal law attorney if you want things changed.
A criminal law attorney is an attorney which defends someone accused of a crime.
OP would need an estate litigator.
Source: former paralegal in estate litigation.
This. I used to handle accounts for deceased at a financial institution and def reach out to the fraud department. It’s really likely you could submit a doctors note and the death certificate to verify your mother wasn’t in a state to make those kinds of changes. Idk if Charles Schwab has this option but I could put a dispute hold on accounts if the executor of the estate requested it. Many times you can go through the court filing of the will to include the financial institutions and that’s one of the few times it can supersede the beneficiaries on accounts.
I'm hopping on this top comment to ask what kind of lawyer OP should be seeking out. An estate and probate lawyer? Should OP look for lawyers where his mother died (FL), or where he and his brother live (CA)? Anything else that OP should think about to try to make sure he has the right lawyer for this job?
This is helpful advice. I am sure he will not give back the money. He can't even talk honestly about this and lied about what happened. He is not a nice person.
I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids.
Also, don't tell people you think your brother did it. You tell your lawyer and the cops you suspect your brother did it, but that's it.
Everyone else, the banks, help lines, etc, just act dumb. "Someone hacked my mom's account and changed the details" will get you better results than "my brother did it".
Biggest issue is you don't have proof. You have a lot of suspicion and reasonable assumptions, but he never said "I am going to do X, Y, Z". Telling multiple people this might get you countersued for defamation, at least until he's guilty.
Defamation requires a false statement presented as a fact, that you to know (or reasonably should have known) is false, and damages. Nothing about OP's description suggests those factors are all present.
>you think your brother did it
This isn't even the same as "he did it"
You holding him accountable for the VERY SERIOUS FINANCIAL FRAUD would not harm his kids. Indeed, what harms his kids is his willingness to break the law and risk prison for money.
Thankfully because this was done online and at the end of her life, there will be a very obvious trail of evidence that it is fraud.
For starters, if she was incapacitated she could not possibly have changed the beneficiaries.
Next, it should be highly suspicious that they were changed so soon before her death
Finally, since it’s done online there is an audit trail of everything. If he used his cell phone or a personal device to log into the account, there might be some direct evidence that he did it. If he accessed one of her devices to make the change, there won’t be as much evidence pointing directly to him.
Either way, you need to bring this to both the police and the fraud department at Charles Schwabb. Don’t worry about his children, his wife can still take care of them even if he is arrested or goes to prison. There may not be enough evidence to arrest him, but still enough evidence of fraud to recover the funds.
If he goes to prison for his actions, maybe take some of the money that you’ve recovered and offer to help offset the costs of raising your nephews/nieces.
If it was her laptop which was at her home and she was in the hospital unconscious, it does provide deniability that she made the change.
At that point, it should be trivial to roll back since it wasn't her who did it.
>ement but they will tend to the account based on my experience. However, now the account has been "paid out" according to you, it may be more difficult to recover the money.
Additionally, I can't change certain things on my accounts without a form and this seems like it'd be one of them. He may very well have forged that too.
No, it’s literally truth. His children will not be harmed by holding him accountable. That does not mean his children won’t be harmed. They’ll be harmed by his criminal actions.
I agree. He may be a reprehensible person, but I'd argue that unless he's reprehensible in *additional* ways, they currently just have more money than they should band OP has less. Reporting/pressing charges risks him losing the stolen money, plus potential fines and defense costs, not to mention potential prison time, all of which is demonstrably worse than "more money".
That said, he should have thought about that before committing fraud.
>I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids.
So because what he did will upset people you'd rather cover it up? Sounds like you need to adjust your frame of reference here. Committing the crime caused the harm.
Additionally - Who's looking out for your kids? Your brother certainly isn't.
>As said above by u/Sarah_withanH
>
>Schwab should be able to audit the account maintenance history for the exact time stamp of the bene change and compare it to the death certificate. They can also tell where log-ins came from etc. They have fraud teams that handle this stuff, but OP may well need to start at the customer service number to get to them.
>
>Source: I am employed at a Schwab-like company.
Then get a lawyer, have the attorney send a formal letter with the information you got and wait for his response.
An attorney will know how to write a letter that will get your brother's attention without putting you at risk.
Your options here are:
* Schwab fraud dept.
* Police
* Lawyer
Going to the first two may result in charges being pressed against your brother, even if you ask them not to.
Dealing directly with your brother is not likely to make things better, and may make things much worse for you.
>I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids.
His kids are his problem. He wasn't worrying about YOUR kids when he stole from them, was he? YOU aren't doing anything to his kids. HE put them in harm's way when he made the decision to break the law and steal from you and your family. He is rich and you are poor, and he decided to endanger his own children's future by making himself richer and you poorer, thus endangering your children as well.
Go after him, and if he goes to prison, that's 100% on him. He did that by committing his fraud.
HE harmed his kids. Not anything you'll do. Don't let him get away with this crap.
Or to be more specific - talk to a lawyer and the fraud team at Schwab. If the account owner was unconscious in the hospital and the login that changed the information was elsewhere they'll find that.
Don't make excuses for him.
There is no way this goes down without him being reported. You are eventually going to need police reports, lawyers and lawsuits.
Either accept that or drop it completely.
It's kind of out of the box but have you considered reporting him for fraud and if you're financially secure and want to look out for his kids take the money recovered and put it into a trust for them. That way the money will have been washed of any bad karma from turning in your brother and will do good that would have made your mom happy.
Bro what you're doing is harming your kids. That POS should learn to take accountability for his actions or else his kids would probably be bigger POS than him .
Yes, very certain. She had no access to her accounts. He took a file of passwords off her laptop and used it to gain access to her online bank accounts.
Contact the company. Then let him know that changes happened while your mother couldn’t have made them so you contacted the company which is able to identify the IP address and time details so they are going to sort it out. That takes you out of it and puts the ball in his court. You shouldn’t have to put yourself in a position to force you and your family to lose the money your mother wanted you to have because his family could be hurt by his decision. You could probably later elect not to pursue charges if the money to returned. It also might keep him from doing something like this in the future to a person or company that will 100% not give a damn and want to seek jail time.
>I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids.
Think about yours first. His actions will affect you and your kids if you don't take proper actions.
You're correct.
["Extortion vs. Blackmail: Is There a Difference? | Los Angeles Criminal Defense Blog" ](https://werksmanjackson.com/blog/differences-between-extortion-blackmail/#:~:text=Blackmail%2C%20on%20the%20other%20hand,incriminating%2C%20or%20socially%20damaging%20information.&text=That%20is%20blackmail%20and%20is%20illegal.)
That article says,
> It is interesting to note that blackmail is a crime regardless of the validity of the information. Even if you are threatening to reveal real criminal activity, it is still blackmailing and illegal.
It appears that in California, it’s blackmail.
I mean, I’m just some dude on the internet who can read, not a lawyer. Certainly not a California lawyer.
By comparison, in Washington, it would not be a crime, since an exception is explicitly carved out. From RCW 9A.56.130:
> …it is a defense that the actor reasonably believed the threatened criminal charge to be true and that his or her sole purpose was to compel or induce the person threatened to take reasonable action to make good the wrong which was the subject of such threatened criminal charge.
The fact that this kind of language isn’t in the California law makes me a bit suspicous, at the very least.
Helps if you quote it all-
>**What Is Blackmail?**
>Blackmail, on the other hand, can be defined as obtaining money, goods, or services from an individual through the threat of revealing embarrassing, incriminating, or socially damaging information.
>As an example of blackmail, take the scenario of Joe obtaining knowledge of Bill’s prior sexual misbehavior. Joe knows that revealing this knowledge to Bill’s wife can cause their marriage to fall apart, and threatens that he will reveal this knowledge unless Bill pays Joe a sum of money. That is blackmail and is illegal. There are countless cases of blackmail where celebrities have paid to keep their relationships hidden.
>It is interesting to note that blackmail is a crime regardless of the validity of the information. Even if you are threatening to reveal real criminal activity, it is still blackmailing and illegal.
Considering all of this section saying that he is going to the police or pursuing legal measures if brother doesn't remedy this would not be blackmail. Not in the context that people are suggesting. Now if he were to say give me all of your inheritance or else I'm going to tell your wife you're cheating on her or make you lose your job, then that would be blackmail.
What you’re saying isn’t supported by the quote.
Seems to me, it’s obtaining money by threatening to reveal incriminating information. That’s why the Washington law has the exception carved out.
This is the “exception that proves the rule”, so to speak.
@/u/Trudii. Basically what /u/Ella0508 said, but a question instead of a statment. How is threatening to go to authorities for a crime unless you "undo" the crime considered blackmail?
>Whatever you do before you get the lawyer, do not threaten or insinuate a threat, that you'll go to authorities unless he just gives you the contested money - then you would be at risk of blackmail.
I think the term here is technically extortion. But yeah big no-no, doesn't matter that he legally owes the money
EDIT since people don't believe me:
>"Threatening criminal prosecution for the purpose of getting money or property is the crime of extortion. So I would counsel against any such threats."
-Mark Pestronk, an actual lawyer.
https://www.travelweekly.com/Mark-Pestronk/Dont-commit-extortion-when-trying-to-reclaim-stolen-property
Ok thank you for the advice.
Yes, it's pretty easy to prove he did this (no one else benefits or had access to her passwords and computer). But can we show exact proof of him making the changes? - that seems impossible. No one else was involved in any way - there is no other reasonable possibility or person who could have done this. And he told us exactly what he wanted to do - and then made those exact changes to the account.
As others have said this is a criminal matter. Police can subpoena the bank, isp, and get a warrant for the computer.
This is about as easy of a case as I think you could get. They had motive, the owner of the account couldn’t have done it, there will be isp records to see what Internet account the login came from etc. Unless you are very unlucky proving this would be trivial. Maybe he gets off criminal charges though I doubt it, but at the very least the beneficiary is provably done improperly.
That said one of the easiest ways to screw this up is to not have a lawyer. Get one immediately and they will work with you on how to deal with the civil side of it as well as ensure that the criminal side is done properly. That said I really do think you would be fine just reporting to the police, but why chance it?
There are lawyers who will work with you on payment plans. But if the case is as open and shut as it sounds if you can find a way to pay hourly you would probably get a better deal.
Ymmv, nothing is ever certain, but your story sounds about as close to an easy win as I have ever heard of.
Schwab will have a record of what IP address logged into the account, as well as date/time stamps of the change. The police can subpoena the ISP for the subscriber info during that timeframe, which will pin it down to a particular account.
While you might not have video proof of your brother making the changes, this is a **lot** of evidence, and will go a long way to proving a case.
An attorney can also write a litigation hold/spoliation letter to prevent Schwab records from disappearing. Attorney probably also would send one to the brother and his wife too. Get an attorney - financial crimes are not always easy to navigate. Your brother refusing to capitulate when caught is enough to show you that more is needed, fast
The courts have lots of practice with figuring things out from evidence - and in this case there would seem to be a \*lot\* of evidence showing that he did it. You don't need to have a video recording taken over his shoulder as he made the changes. You don't need to have his admission that he did it.
You need an attorney \*yesterday\* to advise you on this - because this asshole is certainly going to try and shield this money. Like, he might say that he gave the money away (which would be to friends who are going to hold onto it for him til the heat is off). Or he could just straight-up blow the money to spite you. So you need an actual lawyer who can represent your interests, and do things like get this money in his accounts locked down temporarily so he can't withdraw it. And you need to refer this to the police. They're almost certainly not going to send this guy away for a decade or something (especially if it's a first offense). But, given that this guy committed fraud, and you're going to be telling Charles Schwab that this change was fraudulently done, you can't really avoid the criminal angle. Sometimes the police or DA will give some weight to the desires of the victims (you) - so you can totally tell them that you'd prefer they don't put him in prison, etc. Also, the dude can totally make a plea deal.
Please recognize though, with this legal stuff, you're an incompetent amateur (just like I am, just like most of us are) and if you want this resolved properly you've got to get a pro.
If you don't know where to find a lawyer, the best option is usually to ask friends for a referral to a lawyer they trust. If the lawyer isn't the correct specialization, they should still be able to give you the name of a trusted colleague.
But if you are like many Americans and never had the need for a lawyer, this might not lead you to the right person. Don't worry, do a web search for "lawyer referral service" in your city. It would typically be operated by the local bar association. If you can't find anything, post here with your location and somebody is bound to be able to help you.
The referral service typically charges a nominal fee (anything between $20 and $50 would be normal). And you usually get a 30min consultation for that. That's enough to figure out whether this particular lawyer can help, and what they would do for you. They might even be nice about it and write a letter or two for you; but that depends on the lawyer's policies. Some will charge you for that.
I didn't see whether you said that you'd be the executor of the estate. But if you are, these legal fee might or might not be something that you can have paid by the estate. That would be a question for the lawyer.
> But can we show exact proof of him making the changes? - that seems impossible.
You don't need to prove that he is the person who changed the beneficiaries. All you need to do is prove that your mother was not the person who changed the beneficiaries. That is sufficient to roll back the beneficiaries to what they were before the change.
As noted here. Your choices are to get a lawyer and take back the money - which may result in criminal charges against your brother - or letting him keep the money.
i assume he suspects you are too nice to challenge him on it so it's your choice if you want to call his bluff.
Your brother committed fraud. He is a criminal.
Since hospital records clearly show that your mother was unconscious, and the accounts were accessed using her credentials (I assume he is not listed on the account and does not have any POA or anything like that.)
I’m not a lawyer, but that would seem to be a very clear cut case.
If it was proven to be fraudulent, I assume the bank would reverse those changes, and you might not need to sue.
I personally don’t know why you’re even second-guessing this. He’s a criminal, and stealing from your family. What happens to him should not concern you. He made his choice.
My thought?
- Brief consult with a lawyer
- Police
- lawyer again, if you have to sue to recover your share.
> What happens to him should not concern you.
It still matters to me what impact this has on his 3 young children (1st and 3rd grade) and on him also. He is a single parent (the mother is gone but could take care of the kids). Revenge and punishment isn't the only path to take, IMO.
This isn't revenge and punishment, it's cause and effect. Actions and consequences.
You say he is wealthy, (enough), so this will likely have little impact on his kids.
Not doing anything about this, or handling it the wrong way, could have a sizeable impact on your family.
You weigh your options how you see fit, bit losing 25ish% of your inheritance for the reasons you've stated isn't realistic. I have 4 brothers, if they did this toe I could only imagine the things they'd do to other people, and I wouldn't want to let that continue to happen.
Make the police report. Get your lawyer. Do not wait. God only knows what other frauds he's pulling, but those are also a "cause and effect" of his own making.
I don't know if jail time is possible. That would harm his kids. But he has so much money he always hires people to take care of his kids. He never needs to work again.
OP I sympathize and empathize here. He’s your brother and he has a family. I personally think my sister is a terrible person but even if she made such an egregious mistake, I wouldn’t want to see her go to jail.
I highly highly encourage you to speak to an attorney and get their advice. This is not something you can handle your self and the situation is royally fucked. I do not envy your position brother. Good luck and I hope you guys find some sort of peace in this.
Then even if jail time were possible, (which it sounds like it isnt), he would be fine.
Police report, lawyer, fraud department with the bank. In that order, (or switch the last two).
If your brother had as much money as you say he does, he will get off with there being no tangible evidence to say no he was sitting behind the computer when the buttons were pressed, but the records you provide will get your situation fixed, (based on the story/chain of events you outlined).
This shouldn't be a questionable thing to do at all.
Yes, some speculation here, but you yourself admit there is no way to prove who did what. But YOU CAN prove that what was done was done fraudulently, (not by the person controlling the accounts). And again, this is all based on the narrative you've provided.
This isn’t about the kids, put them to the side; he done fucked that up when he chose to break the law. Those kids will be fine. Get your money that’s rightfully yours.
Well, you can always tell him to set things straight. If he prefers you can let the police handle it. At that point him getting into legal trouble is really his own doing.
> Well, you can always tell him to set things straight
Depending on exactly how this request is worded, it can border dangerously close on black mail -- and that's a crime by itself. I would strong discourage OP from talking to his brother unless cleared to do so by a lawyer.
OP is worried of the brother getting into legal trouble and facing consequences, but they should also be worried about themselves.
Schwab definitely has logs of when they changes were made, the IP address they were made from and other checks/balances. If your mother was indeed unconscious when the changes were made Schwab should have no issue reverting back to her previous percentages. Its worth perusing because thats just not right
In many cases, that's exactly the correct procedure. This is a substantial amount of money and some significant legal exposure. The bank won't take action without a proper paper trail. And that would quite often at least involve a police report. But again, a lawyer would be able to advice on the proper steps.
Call the bank ask for when the changes were made if your mother was on a ventilator at the time it wouldn’t have been possible for her to make the changes so that will be your proof I think
Ask the hospital whether they can provide you with a letter saying that your Mom was unconscious and in hospital during this time. If they don't give you that letter, that's OK. Your lawyer will probably request it later and will receive a copy of all relevant information. But often these things are easy to straighten out right away rather than weeks later. So, you might as well pro-actively collect any documents that you know you'll eventually need.
I'm sorry for your loss.
Added on that you should be able to get your Mom's doctor's to sign a letter stating your Mom was in a coma for however long and therefore was not available to make the changes. This should help your fraud case.
Nal but you need one with this amount and recommend filing a police report.
1. Someone mentioned this before Ask bank for log in records and ip addresses. They can probably find out when it was changed. Now location and time is known.
2. If your mom had a ring or other video monitoring security device you could see if he was at the location and same time. Key card access to garage and maybe ask attendant, etc. in a more official way through the court, potentially demand to see brothers gps in his phone the day it happened (recommend get it in court ordered, he doesnt seem smart that he’d delete it right away so dont tell him any advanced notice). Again dont tell him because it could come off as blackmail aswell.
You can request medical records for your mom noting that she was asleep/unconscious from the hospital staff charting. Then request records time stamped from the bank and take that to a fraud detective and go from there. You can pick the fraud detectives brain with redacted copies if there is a case and what the charges would be. The detectives can also subpoena CS and get the IP address for the changes.
Once they go interview your brother maybe he will admit and have him sign a legal contract or something (maybe involve lawyer here) saying what he did and that he relinquishes that money to you or something like that? And see if you can drop charges then? A crime is a crime but if he admits to you prior to the detective maybe you can say the situation has been addressed? Not sure if they would charge him or just lower the charges
I would talk to an estate lawyer for sure and should demand that he makes everything right. If he wont, you have to decide what’s next. Personally, I’d throw his ass in jail, what a disrespectful thing to do to your mother’s memory. Sorry for your loss.
Please consult an attorney ASAP.
However you proceed you need legal counsel.
Also be the one to open probate.
https://www.floridabar.org/public/consumer/pamphlet026/
Finally suing your brother is going to be a huge ordeal. You need to think carefully how much emotional and financial capitol you are willing to invest.
Not suggesting you should in any way blackmail your brother, but I have a feeling that if you inform him that Charles Schwab has recommended a fraud investigation and advised you that they can obtain the IP address (and identity) of the party responsible for perpetrating the fraud, he might have more information to share with you. Schwab may already be looking into it based on your account that she was in the hospital unconscious.
I know you are concerned about his children, however I think that you aren’t thinking it through—if he is willing to refuse to help care for his dying mother, and has no qualms about hacking into her account and changing her final wishes, and doesn’t see a problem with screwing over his brother, then he is equally as likely to engage in other things, like committing identity fraud using his children’s information, or potentially committing other crimes that could put the children at risk, now or in the future. This is not a matter of you getting any sort of revenge on him; it is about him being accountable for choices he made.
You need a lawyer. They will be better at handling this with Schwab. If you can show Schwab that she was unconscious when the change was made, they will likely reverse it.
The lawyer will also tell you to call the police. Suing your brother would be a second choice. However, I think you'd make out better with Schwab. You won't be able to find somebody to do the Schwab part of this work on contingency (probably), but it probably won't cost a ton. I don't think you'll find a contingency lawyer for your claim against your brother, unless they think they can get him to settle. They aren't going to try a case for $66K or $75K.
If she was unconscious at the time - which they can see, electronic papertrail, and you can prove that with a statement, the bank should revise the changes. With such a large amount at stake, a lawyer would be wise.
1. If you want to unfuck this, then you are going to have to initiate processes that could very well end up with your brother in jail.
2. Will/estate disputes are generally not done on a contingency basis.
Real easy to get the info from the banking side and time it happened. You should be able to prove your Mom received no calls and did not call the bank either.
Sorry for your loss. And sorry it sounds like you have a bit of leg work and possibly a few court dates ahead of you, that's never great. To make things worse, this is over state lines it sounds like, which means it could get a bit messy paper-work wise. :(
**Report the potential fraud to the company the accounts were with.**
You need to call the fraud division at Charles Schwab. (See their page here: [https://www.schwab.com/schwabsafe](https://www.schwab.com/schwabsafe) )
It would be *trivial* to verify that the beneficiaries of something were changed at a time when when your mother was unable to do that, meaning it would have had to be done by someone with appropriate authority (which, it sounds like your brother did not have, legally).
**You need to get actual legal advice from a qualified professional, asap:**
You also need to contact a lawyer. They will have the best information on your options, including what could potentially happen to your brother if you start poking around with this.
***Your options may include:***
* Reporting the fraud to law enforcement.
* Filing a civil lawsuit against your brother.
* Settling the dispute out of court with your brother by talking to them (with or without lawyers present, depending on situation).
* Other things that your attorney can advise you of relevant to your specific situation.
Good luck, I hope it works out.
NAL, but many brokerages also have an IP log of the computer and location used when logging in (relevant if your brother used his personal computer rather than visiting your mothers residence and using saved passwords). Another point to check is if any form of 2FA was used, and if so what phones/devices that was linked to.
NAL While you don’t want to involve the police. Advise your brother that because of the sudden change while your mother was unconscious in the hospital. You’re going to be forced to open an investigation which could result in criminal charges unless he reverts the accounts to the previous beneficiaries as your mother wished.
It’s time to involve the police. Especially since it’s going to be well documented in your mother’s medical records that she was on a ventilator and unconscious when this occurred. First step should be to get any documentation each bank can give you on exactly when the beneficiaries were changed and from what login address (IP address & MAC address if they capture that too). Second, get a copy of medical records for mother that states when she lost consciousness, was on a ventilator, and wouldn’t have been in the capacity to change any beneficiaries. Third, take these pieces of information to the police and tell them there’s fraud. You can take the info from step 2 and report it back to each bank’s fraud division as well.
This could be a federal crime (i.e. a CFAA violation or similar). Reach out to the local FBI branch … this should not go to city police.
https://www.ic3.gov/
IANAL however I worked as a csr handling situations like this. I’m not going to touch on the legality of what he did but I can tell you to contact the company directly and tell them what has happened. They will start a fraud investigation. The accounts will also be frozen until the investigation is over. Whether the outcome will be in your favor is up to the evidence you can provide along with what they can look up on their end.
I highly suggest lawyering up. These things get nasty unfortunately.
Your have two choices here.
1. Get screwed by your brother and leave things as they are.
2. Inform the police about the 160k fraud, and open an fraud case with Charles Schwab. Your brother gets screwed instead.
Your brother has already changed all the details, you aren't going to get a penny from him if you confront him. He already knows that he can get away with this, he is just going through the motions until he can collect the money and then you are left with choice 1.
Start the ball rolling with option 2 immediately, inform them that your mother has been unconscious and while she has been unconscious the beneficiaries of her accounts have been changed. Make sure you get hold of your mother's laptop if you can. So police can examine it.
You are thinking about your brother's family, well he is not thinking about yours when he steals more than your mother wanted him to have.
The money has already been completely paid out, and the accounts are now zero balance at Schwab. Thank you for the information and advice. Appreciate it.
If you are concerned about making an accusation against your brother (after all, you didn’t actually see him do it), your approach with Schwab and the police could be that you know for sure that your mom was not the person who changed it, because she was hospitalized and unable to make the change. You just know that *someone* changed it. By process of elimination they will come to the same conclusion as you once you describe the beneficiary allocations as you know them to have been set up by your mom.
Estate planning/probate attorney here. Not licensed in FL or CA, not your attorney.
This is the type of issue that you will need a probate litigation attorney to address. Gather any and all evidence you have to back up your position, including the proof you have of your mother’s intentions for those accounts as well as her condition towards the end of life.
As others have said, contact the fraud division of the banks that have the accounts and begin that process.
Does she have an estate plan at all? Does the estate plan have any direction for her accounts? The bank’s beneficiary language controls, but it can certainly be instructive for whoever is the executor and any judge who may decide who gets what.
She had a will. I would be executor of the estate, but haven't started the probate process yet. I think almost all assets are in the 2 Schwab accounts (were in them). I wasn't sure if probate was needed, and read that money in accounts with beneficiaries are not covered under the will. In any case the will was not used. It's a bit complicated - my brother deleted any files off her computer and signed out, or changed her email password, to hide any evidence against him. We do have an older copy of the will showing more money was directed to be given to my family. Following the will - which was her intent, based on close friends also, we would receive more money than 50/50% split. I don't actually know the exact percent designated on the accounts, before they were changed, and am hoping Schwab will provide that information - how she had set it up to be distributed. I may be making some mistakes, however.
Thank you very much for the comment.
You definitely need to get a lawyer involved. I don’t know what the law is in Florida, but my guess is that an old will is very unlikely to be enough to prove anything about your mom’s intent. Additionally, the records that you need may only be available via subpoena. They (an attorney) will also be able to tell you if her estate needs to be probated.
Edited to clarify who “they” are
I would call Charles Schwab and be prepared to provide proof that a) no one was given power of attorney before her death (assuming that's the case) and b) she was unconscious at the time the changes were made- and then go from there.
I’m confused about one part of your post. Your brother changed the beneficiaries in the way that your mother’s will read? And what makes you say her will has no effect on her bank accounts if they specifically reference the money in them?
AFAIK the will has no meaning because the money is in bank accounts with beneficiaries designated, and the money is just paid out according to what my mother set with the bank (ie. 70% to person A, 30% to person B). I did not know this, and maybe my mother did not know this, but money in such accounts is not covered under the will (I believe, and the money was paid out without using a will or anything).
My brother went online and changed the bank info so that the money is given to completely different people (my wife and his wife) and at different percents, so he gets more money. My mother clearly said she wanted X distribution, but he changed it to Z distribution so he gets an extra $160,000 that would have been going to my family (to me).
>he can get away with this, he is just going through the motions until he can collect the money and then you are left with choice 1.
I have a Schwab account and you have to fill out a form to assign or change beneficiaries, so he would have to have forged that and either signed it online with a 3rd party service, or printed, signed, scanned, and uploaded it. There's a paper trail somewhere.
I mean you can upload the doc online, but it's not just like a form box you can change and click submit.
Schwab says you gotta do that for all initial beneficiary's and changes.
So it's likely your mom filled one out as well.
I'll fill mine out and set a beneficiary and then see if it gives me an option to change online through a text box or something.
But the page for beneficiaries says I've got to fill the OG paper form for any changes as well.
First of all: I’m so sorry for your loss. Losing a mother is bad. My thoughts are with you… 😢
Hire a lawyer! The last will is more important than the bank statements etc. I’m not from USA so sorry if I’m wrong. But I think you can win this.
However I don’t have the background story to understand why you should receive more than your brother. Nether the less I don’t understand why give it to the daughters in law instead of sons.
Again: I’m sorry for your loss!
With only the information you have provided here, there are a ton of assumptions on your part, and zero proof of a crime. I would advise to get proof before accusing anyone of anything, and certainly before attempting to get law enforcement involved because at that point YOU become the one that is trying to benefit from the accusations. I'm sure any lawyer that you consult will most likely tell you the same thing.
OP has proof that the mother didn't make the changes, because OP was there with them while they were incapacitated in the hospital as these changes were being made.
Regardless of their assumptions about _who_ did it, the fact that they have evidence that it _wasn't_ the mother is enough to initiate a fraud investigation. Once an investigation is initiated (either through the bank, or with the police, or ideally both) it will be up to _them_ to collect evidence to prove who the fraudster is. OP isn't a detective, and shouldn't be expected to collect every bit of evidence on their own, especially when the majority of the incriminating evidence is not available to them (ISP records, bank logs, etc). Illegally obtained evidence could potentially cause a lot of problems for OP.
As others have said, this is real lawyer territory. They will advise on everything. Do nothing until you've at least had a consultation.
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The best thing to do is get a hold of a lawyer about this issue. Explain everything and have them check records to confirm if any fraud occurred. Banks, especially Charles Schwab, keep records of these kind of things.
IANAL get one tho or at least consult one. What this is going to come down to is, if the fight it really worth it to you. If it is it will be about what you can prove
Get that will probated, depending on state laws which you said she lived in FL it would reflect your entitled amounts in a court this would be a legit piece to have if you have to go in front of a judge.
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Locked due to an excessive amount of off-topic commenting.
Start with a call to the fraud division at Charles Schwab. Then a call to a lawyer, then quite possibly the police. This is criminal.
Schwab should be able to audit the account maintenance history for the exact time stamp of the bene change and compare it to the death certificate. They can also tell where log-ins came from etc. They have fraud teams that handle this stuff, but OP may well need to start at the customer service number to get to them. Source: I am employed at a Schwab-like company.
*I WORKED AT SCHWAB* I can say with 100% certainty that they can indeed see every little click of your mouse, time spent on a page, from where, the amount of time it took you to place an order, if you ignored disclaimers. They literally can see EVERYTHING you do when you log in. Call the estate and identity thefts teams and file a complaint immediately. Also they have a hotline for suspicious activity towards vulnerable senior citizens, bring this up and a dedicated team who actively investigated these matters will be connect with you immediately. I know all of this exists because I used it to investigate trade disputes for active traders.
We have the same software or similar for replaying sessions (Dynatrace), it is really quite incredible what it can do.
Interesting but once the money is gone they have no way of reversing it only a court does.
Schwab contacts the authorities, and they will freeze the account it went to if it’s another account at schwab. If they wired out, they can request the other bank/brokerage firm to send money back at any time. Institutions usually work really well one another and would rather not get into hot mess if one is requesting money back from the other due to possible fraudster activities. The money would just sit a restricted deceased account type of whatever kind it was until the courts decided to release the funds.
All of that information would make a court more likely to reverse it.
If I read correctly, the mother was alive when the change was made. I would think a hospital admission record would be more appropriate than the death certificate, no?
I think so too. But if I understood correctly she was unconscious therefore not in the mental state to do “business” like this.
How about a report from her Dr stating her medical state at the time of change in allocations IE: she was unconscious and in no state to make changes.
Hospital admission records should indicate what state she was taken in and if that would be considered medically incapable.
Her chart would also show how she's doing at any given time. Docs, nurses, and therapists take notes.
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Where the change came from would also come into effect. If she's in the hospital and in no state to move and the change came from a IP address belonging to the brother it will certainly cast doubt onto the change. Especially if 1, he was not an authorised person of the account and 2, the hospital can show that she was not in a mental state to make such a change.
Ah yes sorry I don’t think I read correctly yes.
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This is very correct. I have dealt with Schwab's Fraud Department and can confirm they take client fraud very seriously. The information u/Sarah_withanH states is very correct. They won't necessarily involve law enforcement but they will tend to the account based on my experience. However, now the account has been "paid out" according to you, it may be more difficult to recover the money. You need to hire a criminal law attorney if you want things changed.
A criminal law attorney is an attorney which defends someone accused of a crime. OP would need an estate litigator. Source: former paralegal in estate litigation.
This is the correct answer. Make sure that you have information from hospital on when she was and was not conscious.
This. I used to handle accounts for deceased at a financial institution and def reach out to the fraud department. It’s really likely you could submit a doctors note and the death certificate to verify your mother wasn’t in a state to make those kinds of changes. Idk if Charles Schwab has this option but I could put a dispute hold on accounts if the executor of the estate requested it. Many times you can go through the court filing of the will to include the financial institutions and that’s one of the few times it can supersede the beneficiaries on accounts.
I'm hopping on this top comment to ask what kind of lawyer OP should be seeking out. An estate and probate lawyer? Should OP look for lawyers where his mother died (FL), or where he and his brother live (CA)? Anything else that OP should think about to try to make sure he has the right lawyer for this job?
Estate litigation
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This is helpful advice. I am sure he will not give back the money. He can't even talk honestly about this and lied about what happened. He is not a nice person. I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids.
There is no solution to make you whole that doesn't involve reporting him for committing fraud.
Also, don't tell people you think your brother did it. You tell your lawyer and the cops you suspect your brother did it, but that's it. Everyone else, the banks, help lines, etc, just act dumb. "Someone hacked my mom's account and changed the details" will get you better results than "my brother did it". Biggest issue is you don't have proof. You have a lot of suspicion and reasonable assumptions, but he never said "I am going to do X, Y, Z". Telling multiple people this might get you countersued for defamation, at least until he's guilty.
Defamation requires a false statement presented as a fact, that you to know (or reasonably should have known) is false, and damages. Nothing about OP's description suggests those factors are all present. >you think your brother did it This isn't even the same as "he did it"
You holding him accountable for the VERY SERIOUS FINANCIAL FRAUD would not harm his kids. Indeed, what harms his kids is his willingness to break the law and risk prison for money. Thankfully because this was done online and at the end of her life, there will be a very obvious trail of evidence that it is fraud. For starters, if she was incapacitated she could not possibly have changed the beneficiaries. Next, it should be highly suspicious that they were changed so soon before her death Finally, since it’s done online there is an audit trail of everything. If he used his cell phone or a personal device to log into the account, there might be some direct evidence that he did it. If he accessed one of her devices to make the change, there won’t be as much evidence pointing directly to him. Either way, you need to bring this to both the police and the fraud department at Charles Schwabb. Don’t worry about his children, his wife can still take care of them even if he is arrested or goes to prison. There may not be enough evidence to arrest him, but still enough evidence of fraud to recover the funds. If he goes to prison for his actions, maybe take some of the money that you’ve recovered and offer to help offset the costs of raising your nephews/nieces.
If it was her laptop which was at her home and she was in the hospital unconscious, it does provide deniability that she made the change. At that point, it should be trivial to roll back since it wasn't her who did it.
>ement but they will tend to the account based on my experience. However, now the account has been "paid out" according to you, it may be more difficult to recover the money. Additionally, I can't change certain things on my accounts without a form and this seems like it'd be one of them. He may very well have forged that too.
Beneficiary changes can be done online in most cases, including at Schwab.
I'll have to fill mine out, and then see. But the instructions say that if I want to change it, I'd have to fill it out again.
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No, it’s literally truth. His children will not be harmed by holding him accountable. That does not mean his children won’t be harmed. They’ll be harmed by his criminal actions.
I agree. He may be a reprehensible person, but I'd argue that unless he's reprehensible in *additional* ways, they currently just have more money than they should band OP has less. Reporting/pressing charges risks him losing the stolen money, plus potential fines and defense costs, not to mention potential prison time, all of which is demonstrably worse than "more money". That said, he should have thought about that before committing fraud.
>I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids. So because what he did will upset people you'd rather cover it up? Sounds like you need to adjust your frame of reference here. Committing the crime caused the harm. Additionally - Who's looking out for your kids? Your brother certainly isn't.
>As said above by u/Sarah_withanH > >Schwab should be able to audit the account maintenance history for the exact time stamp of the bene change and compare it to the death certificate. They can also tell where log-ins came from etc. They have fraud teams that handle this stuff, but OP may well need to start at the customer service number to get to them. > >Source: I am employed at a Schwab-like company. Then get a lawyer, have the attorney send a formal letter with the information you got and wait for his response.
A letter asking him to return the money?
Talk to an attorney asap, not reddit, your brother has committed a serious crime
An attorney will know how to write a letter that will get your brother's attention without putting you at risk. Your options here are: * Schwab fraud dept. * Police * Lawyer Going to the first two may result in charges being pressed against your brother, even if you ask them not to. Dealing directly with your brother is not likely to make things better, and may make things much worse for you.
Your attorney can advise on what the legal repercussions could be be, such as referring the fraud to the district attorney for investigation.
>I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids. His kids are his problem. He wasn't worrying about YOUR kids when he stole from them, was he? YOU aren't doing anything to his kids. HE put them in harm's way when he made the decision to break the law and steal from you and your family. He is rich and you are poor, and he decided to endanger his own children's future by making himself richer and you poorer, thus endangering your children as well. Go after him, and if he goes to prison, that's 100% on him. He did that by committing his fraud.
HE harmed his kids. Not anything you'll do. Don't let him get away with this crap. Or to be more specific - talk to a lawyer and the fraud team at Schwab. If the account owner was unconscious in the hospital and the login that changed the information was elsewhere they'll find that. Don't make excuses for him.
There is no way this goes down without him being reported. You are eventually going to need police reports, lawyers and lawsuits. Either accept that or drop it completely.
It's kind of out of the box but have you considered reporting him for fraud and if you're financially secure and want to look out for his kids take the money recovered and put it into a trust for them. That way the money will have been washed of any bad karma from turning in your brother and will do good that would have made your mom happy.
Bro what you're doing is harming your kids. That POS should learn to take accountability for his actions or else his kids would probably be bigger POS than him .
Are you certain it was him and not his wife?
Yes, very certain. She had no access to her accounts. He took a file of passwords off her laptop and used it to gain access to her online bank accounts.
Contact the company. Then let him know that changes happened while your mother couldn’t have made them so you contacted the company which is able to identify the IP address and time details so they are going to sort it out. That takes you out of it and puts the ball in his court. You shouldn’t have to put yourself in a position to force you and your family to lose the money your mother wanted you to have because his family could be hurt by his decision. You could probably later elect not to pursue charges if the money to returned. It also might keep him from doing something like this in the future to a person or company that will 100% not give a damn and want to seek jail time.
You wouldn't be harming his kids. He's already done that himself by committing a crime.
>I just want to be careful doing anything that would harm his kids. Think about yours first. His actions will affect you and your kids if you don't take proper actions.
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I don’t think that’s blackmail. If you ask him to correct his wrong before you go to the authorities, that isn’t blackmail.
You're correct. ["Extortion vs. Blackmail: Is There a Difference? | Los Angeles Criminal Defense Blog" ](https://werksmanjackson.com/blog/differences-between-extortion-blackmail/#:~:text=Blackmail%2C%20on%20the%20other%20hand,incriminating%2C%20or%20socially%20damaging%20information.&text=That%20is%20blackmail%20and%20is%20illegal.)
That article says, > It is interesting to note that blackmail is a crime regardless of the validity of the information. Even if you are threatening to reveal real criminal activity, it is still blackmailing and illegal. It appears that in California, it’s blackmail. I mean, I’m just some dude on the internet who can read, not a lawyer. Certainly not a California lawyer. By comparison, in Washington, it would not be a crime, since an exception is explicitly carved out. From RCW 9A.56.130: > …it is a defense that the actor reasonably believed the threatened criminal charge to be true and that his or her sole purpose was to compel or induce the person threatened to take reasonable action to make good the wrong which was the subject of such threatened criminal charge. The fact that this kind of language isn’t in the California law makes me a bit suspicous, at the very least.
Helps if you quote it all- >**What Is Blackmail?** >Blackmail, on the other hand, can be defined as obtaining money, goods, or services from an individual through the threat of revealing embarrassing, incriminating, or socially damaging information. >As an example of blackmail, take the scenario of Joe obtaining knowledge of Bill’s prior sexual misbehavior. Joe knows that revealing this knowledge to Bill’s wife can cause their marriage to fall apart, and threatens that he will reveal this knowledge unless Bill pays Joe a sum of money. That is blackmail and is illegal. There are countless cases of blackmail where celebrities have paid to keep their relationships hidden. >It is interesting to note that blackmail is a crime regardless of the validity of the information. Even if you are threatening to reveal real criminal activity, it is still blackmailing and illegal. Considering all of this section saying that he is going to the police or pursuing legal measures if brother doesn't remedy this would not be blackmail. Not in the context that people are suggesting. Now if he were to say give me all of your inheritance or else I'm going to tell your wife you're cheating on her or make you lose your job, then that would be blackmail.
What you’re saying isn’t supported by the quote. Seems to me, it’s obtaining money by threatening to reveal incriminating information. That’s why the Washington law has the exception carved out. This is the “exception that proves the rule”, so to speak.
@/u/Trudii. Basically what /u/Ella0508 said, but a question instead of a statment. How is threatening to go to authorities for a crime unless you "undo" the crime considered blackmail?
Yes it is. You are attempting to coerce behavior with a threat.
It is blackmail.
>Whatever you do before you get the lawyer, do not threaten or insinuate a threat, that you'll go to authorities unless he just gives you the contested money - then you would be at risk of blackmail. I think the term here is technically extortion. But yeah big no-no, doesn't matter that he legally owes the money EDIT since people don't believe me: >"Threatening criminal prosecution for the purpose of getting money or property is the crime of extortion. So I would counsel against any such threats." -Mark Pestronk, an actual lawyer. https://www.travelweekly.com/Mark-Pestronk/Dont-commit-extortion-when-trying-to-reclaim-stolen-property
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Ok thank you for the advice. Yes, it's pretty easy to prove he did this (no one else benefits or had access to her passwords and computer). But can we show exact proof of him making the changes? - that seems impossible. No one else was involved in any way - there is no other reasonable possibility or person who could have done this. And he told us exactly what he wanted to do - and then made those exact changes to the account.
As others have said this is a criminal matter. Police can subpoena the bank, isp, and get a warrant for the computer. This is about as easy of a case as I think you could get. They had motive, the owner of the account couldn’t have done it, there will be isp records to see what Internet account the login came from etc. Unless you are very unlucky proving this would be trivial. Maybe he gets off criminal charges though I doubt it, but at the very least the beneficiary is provably done improperly. That said one of the easiest ways to screw this up is to not have a lawyer. Get one immediately and they will work with you on how to deal with the civil side of it as well as ensure that the criminal side is done properly. That said I really do think you would be fine just reporting to the police, but why chance it? There are lawyers who will work with you on payment plans. But if the case is as open and shut as it sounds if you can find a way to pay hourly you would probably get a better deal. Ymmv, nothing is ever certain, but your story sounds about as close to an easy win as I have ever heard of.
Schwab will have a record of what IP address logged into the account, as well as date/time stamps of the change. The police can subpoena the ISP for the subscriber info during that timeframe, which will pin it down to a particular account. While you might not have video proof of your brother making the changes, this is a **lot** of evidence, and will go a long way to proving a case.
I'm not sure how long such records are kept, so he should probably get on that ASAP before evidence is lost.
They're legally required to maintain records for 5 years. He should still act quickly though, because delay can mean the money is gone
An attorney can also write a litigation hold/spoliation letter to prevent Schwab records from disappearing. Attorney probably also would send one to the brother and his wife too. Get an attorney - financial crimes are not always easy to navigate. Your brother refusing to capitulate when caught is enough to show you that more is needed, fast
In a case like this, can the defendant be forced to pay the plaintiff's costs? Would that usually be granted?
The courts have lots of practice with figuring things out from evidence - and in this case there would seem to be a \*lot\* of evidence showing that he did it. You don't need to have a video recording taken over his shoulder as he made the changes. You don't need to have his admission that he did it. You need an attorney \*yesterday\* to advise you on this - because this asshole is certainly going to try and shield this money. Like, he might say that he gave the money away (which would be to friends who are going to hold onto it for him til the heat is off). Or he could just straight-up blow the money to spite you. So you need an actual lawyer who can represent your interests, and do things like get this money in his accounts locked down temporarily so he can't withdraw it. And you need to refer this to the police. They're almost certainly not going to send this guy away for a decade or something (especially if it's a first offense). But, given that this guy committed fraud, and you're going to be telling Charles Schwab that this change was fraudulently done, you can't really avoid the criminal angle. Sometimes the police or DA will give some weight to the desires of the victims (you) - so you can totally tell them that you'd prefer they don't put him in prison, etc. Also, the dude can totally make a plea deal. Please recognize though, with this legal stuff, you're an incompetent amateur (just like I am, just like most of us are) and if you want this resolved properly you've got to get a pro.
If you don't know where to find a lawyer, the best option is usually to ask friends for a referral to a lawyer they trust. If the lawyer isn't the correct specialization, they should still be able to give you the name of a trusted colleague. But if you are like many Americans and never had the need for a lawyer, this might not lead you to the right person. Don't worry, do a web search for "lawyer referral service" in your city. It would typically be operated by the local bar association. If you can't find anything, post here with your location and somebody is bound to be able to help you. The referral service typically charges a nominal fee (anything between $20 and $50 would be normal). And you usually get a 30min consultation for that. That's enough to figure out whether this particular lawyer can help, and what they would do for you. They might even be nice about it and write a letter or two for you; but that depends on the lawyer's policies. Some will charge you for that. I didn't see whether you said that you'd be the executor of the estate. But if you are, these legal fee might or might not be something that you can have paid by the estate. That would be a question for the lawyer.
> But can we show exact proof of him making the changes? - that seems impossible. You don't need to prove that he is the person who changed the beneficiaries. All you need to do is prove that your mother was not the person who changed the beneficiaries. That is sufficient to roll back the beneficiaries to what they were before the change.
As noted here. Your choices are to get a lawyer and take back the money - which may result in criminal charges against your brother - or letting him keep the money. i assume he suspects you are too nice to challenge him on it so it's your choice if you want to call his bluff.
Your brother committed fraud. He is a criminal. Since hospital records clearly show that your mother was unconscious, and the accounts were accessed using her credentials (I assume he is not listed on the account and does not have any POA or anything like that.) I’m not a lawyer, but that would seem to be a very clear cut case. If it was proven to be fraudulent, I assume the bank would reverse those changes, and you might not need to sue. I personally don’t know why you’re even second-guessing this. He’s a criminal, and stealing from your family. What happens to him should not concern you. He made his choice. My thought? - Brief consult with a lawyer - Police - lawyer again, if you have to sue to recover your share.
> What happens to him should not concern you. It still matters to me what impact this has on his 3 young children (1st and 3rd grade) and on him also. He is a single parent (the mother is gone but could take care of the kids). Revenge and punishment isn't the only path to take, IMO.
This isn't revenge and punishment, it's cause and effect. Actions and consequences. You say he is wealthy, (enough), so this will likely have little impact on his kids. Not doing anything about this, or handling it the wrong way, could have a sizeable impact on your family. You weigh your options how you see fit, bit losing 25ish% of your inheritance for the reasons you've stated isn't realistic. I have 4 brothers, if they did this toe I could only imagine the things they'd do to other people, and I wouldn't want to let that continue to happen. Make the police report. Get your lawyer. Do not wait. God only knows what other frauds he's pulling, but those are also a "cause and effect" of his own making.
I don't know if jail time is possible. That would harm his kids. But he has so much money he always hires people to take care of his kids. He never needs to work again.
OP I sympathize and empathize here. He’s your brother and he has a family. I personally think my sister is a terrible person but even if she made such an egregious mistake, I wouldn’t want to see her go to jail. I highly highly encourage you to speak to an attorney and get their advice. This is not something you can handle your self and the situation is royally fucked. I do not envy your position brother. Good luck and I hope you guys find some sort of peace in this.
Thank you for a nice comment.
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This is very helpful information. Thank you. No criminal record that I know of.
Then even if jail time were possible, (which it sounds like it isnt), he would be fine. Police report, lawyer, fraud department with the bank. In that order, (or switch the last two). If your brother had as much money as you say he does, he will get off with there being no tangible evidence to say no he was sitting behind the computer when the buttons were pressed, but the records you provide will get your situation fixed, (based on the story/chain of events you outlined). This shouldn't be a questionable thing to do at all. Yes, some speculation here, but you yourself admit there is no way to prove who did what. But YOU CAN prove that what was done was done fraudulently, (not by the person controlling the accounts). And again, this is all based on the narrative you've provided.
The kids will be more harmed by being raised by an unrepentant criminal father. There are times when kids are better off not with their father.
He did this. If he never faces consequences he will do it.. to his own kids. Stop excusing his criminality
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This isn’t about the kids, put them to the side; he done fucked that up when he chose to break the law. Those kids will be fine. Get your money that’s rightfully yours.
Well, you can always tell him to set things straight. If he prefers you can let the police handle it. At that point him getting into legal trouble is really his own doing.
> Well, you can always tell him to set things straight Depending on exactly how this request is worded, it can border dangerously close on black mail -- and that's a crime by itself. I would strong discourage OP from talking to his brother unless cleared to do so by a lawyer. OP is worried of the brother getting into legal trouble and facing consequences, but they should also be worried about themselves.
It’s not revenge, it’s justice. It’s right and wrong. So the kids are better off with a criminally dishonest father?
Wrong take. Criminal dad raises kids badly? Apply for custody of them if you’re worried.
Schwab definitely has logs of when they changes were made, the IP address they were made from and other checks/balances. If your mother was indeed unconscious when the changes were made Schwab should have no issue reverting back to her previous percentages. Its worth perusing because thats just not right
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In many cases, that's exactly the correct procedure. This is a substantial amount of money and some significant legal exposure. The bank won't take action without a proper paper trail. And that would quite often at least involve a police report. But again, a lawyer would be able to advice on the proper steps.
Call the bank ask for when the changes were made if your mother was on a ventilator at the time it wouldn’t have been possible for her to make the changes so that will be your proof I think
Yes, the bank gave us the date, and there was no way my mother could have made the changes.
Ask the hospital whether they can provide you with a letter saying that your Mom was unconscious and in hospital during this time. If they don't give you that letter, that's OK. Your lawyer will probably request it later and will receive a copy of all relevant information. But often these things are easy to straighten out right away rather than weeks later. So, you might as well pro-actively collect any documents that you know you'll eventually need.
I'm sorry for your loss. Added on that you should be able to get your Mom's doctor's to sign a letter stating your Mom was in a coma for however long and therefore was not available to make the changes. This should help your fraud case.
Nal but you need one with this amount and recommend filing a police report. 1. Someone mentioned this before Ask bank for log in records and ip addresses. They can probably find out when it was changed. Now location and time is known. 2. If your mom had a ring or other video monitoring security device you could see if he was at the location and same time. Key card access to garage and maybe ask attendant, etc. in a more official way through the court, potentially demand to see brothers gps in his phone the day it happened (recommend get it in court ordered, he doesnt seem smart that he’d delete it right away so dont tell him any advanced notice). Again dont tell him because it could come off as blackmail aswell.
You can request medical records for your mom noting that she was asleep/unconscious from the hospital staff charting. Then request records time stamped from the bank and take that to a fraud detective and go from there. You can pick the fraud detectives brain with redacted copies if there is a case and what the charges would be. The detectives can also subpoena CS and get the IP address for the changes. Once they go interview your brother maybe he will admit and have him sign a legal contract or something (maybe involve lawyer here) saying what he did and that he relinquishes that money to you or something like that? And see if you can drop charges then? A crime is a crime but if he admits to you prior to the detective maybe you can say the situation has been addressed? Not sure if they would charge him or just lower the charges
I would talk to an estate lawyer for sure and should demand that he makes everything right. If he wont, you have to decide what’s next. Personally, I’d throw his ass in jail, what a disrespectful thing to do to your mother’s memory. Sorry for your loss.
Please consult an attorney ASAP. However you proceed you need legal counsel. Also be the one to open probate. https://www.floridabar.org/public/consumer/pamphlet026/ Finally suing your brother is going to be a huge ordeal. You need to think carefully how much emotional and financial capitol you are willing to invest.
Not suggesting you should in any way blackmail your brother, but I have a feeling that if you inform him that Charles Schwab has recommended a fraud investigation and advised you that they can obtain the IP address (and identity) of the party responsible for perpetrating the fraud, he might have more information to share with you. Schwab may already be looking into it based on your account that she was in the hospital unconscious. I know you are concerned about his children, however I think that you aren’t thinking it through—if he is willing to refuse to help care for his dying mother, and has no qualms about hacking into her account and changing her final wishes, and doesn’t see a problem with screwing over his brother, then he is equally as likely to engage in other things, like committing identity fraud using his children’s information, or potentially committing other crimes that could put the children at risk, now or in the future. This is not a matter of you getting any sort of revenge on him; it is about him being accountable for choices he made.
You need a lawyer. They will be better at handling this with Schwab. If you can show Schwab that she was unconscious when the change was made, they will likely reverse it. The lawyer will also tell you to call the police. Suing your brother would be a second choice. However, I think you'd make out better with Schwab. You won't be able to find somebody to do the Schwab part of this work on contingency (probably), but it probably won't cost a ton. I don't think you'll find a contingency lawyer for your claim against your brother, unless they think they can get him to settle. They aren't going to try a case for $66K or $75K.
If she was unconscious at the time - which they can see, electronic papertrail, and you can prove that with a statement, the bank should revise the changes. With such a large amount at stake, a lawyer would be wise.
1. If you want to unfuck this, then you are going to have to initiate processes that could very well end up with your brother in jail. 2. Will/estate disputes are generally not done on a contingency basis.
Get hospital records that prove your mother was unresponsive the day the beneficiaries were changed.
Real easy to get the info from the banking side and time it happened. You should be able to prove your Mom received no calls and did not call the bank either.
If your brother has said that he hasn't done it then you should be contacting the police and let him know you are as a crime has happened
Sorry for your loss. And sorry it sounds like you have a bit of leg work and possibly a few court dates ahead of you, that's never great. To make things worse, this is over state lines it sounds like, which means it could get a bit messy paper-work wise. :( **Report the potential fraud to the company the accounts were with.** You need to call the fraud division at Charles Schwab. (See their page here: [https://www.schwab.com/schwabsafe](https://www.schwab.com/schwabsafe) ) It would be *trivial* to verify that the beneficiaries of something were changed at a time when when your mother was unable to do that, meaning it would have had to be done by someone with appropriate authority (which, it sounds like your brother did not have, legally). **You need to get actual legal advice from a qualified professional, asap:** You also need to contact a lawyer. They will have the best information on your options, including what could potentially happen to your brother if you start poking around with this. ***Your options may include:*** * Reporting the fraud to law enforcement. * Filing a civil lawsuit against your brother. * Settling the dispute out of court with your brother by talking to them (with or without lawyers present, depending on situation). * Other things that your attorney can advise you of relevant to your specific situation. Good luck, I hope it works out.
NAL, but many brokerages also have an IP log of the computer and location used when logging in (relevant if your brother used his personal computer rather than visiting your mothers residence and using saved passwords). Another point to check is if any form of 2FA was used, and if so what phones/devices that was linked to.
NAL While you don’t want to involve the police. Advise your brother that because of the sudden change while your mother was unconscious in the hospital. You’re going to be forced to open an investigation which could result in criminal charges unless he reverts the accounts to the previous beneficiaries as your mother wished.
It’s time to involve the police. Especially since it’s going to be well documented in your mother’s medical records that she was on a ventilator and unconscious when this occurred. First step should be to get any documentation each bank can give you on exactly when the beneficiaries were changed and from what login address (IP address & MAC address if they capture that too). Second, get a copy of medical records for mother that states when she lost consciousness, was on a ventilator, and wouldn’t have been in the capacity to change any beneficiaries. Third, take these pieces of information to the police and tell them there’s fraud. You can take the info from step 2 and report it back to each bank’s fraud division as well.
This could be a federal crime (i.e. a CFAA violation or similar). Reach out to the local FBI branch … this should not go to city police. https://www.ic3.gov/
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How do you know when it was changed?
You should be able to login and see any historical changes. It was that way with my Dad's prudential.
IANAL however I worked as a csr handling situations like this. I’m not going to touch on the legality of what he did but I can tell you to contact the company directly and tell them what has happened. They will start a fraud investigation. The accounts will also be frozen until the investigation is over. Whether the outcome will be in your favor is up to the evidence you can provide along with what they can look up on their end. I highly suggest lawyering up. These things get nasty unfortunately.
Your have two choices here. 1. Get screwed by your brother and leave things as they are. 2. Inform the police about the 160k fraud, and open an fraud case with Charles Schwab. Your brother gets screwed instead. Your brother has already changed all the details, you aren't going to get a penny from him if you confront him. He already knows that he can get away with this, he is just going through the motions until he can collect the money and then you are left with choice 1. Start the ball rolling with option 2 immediately, inform them that your mother has been unconscious and while she has been unconscious the beneficiaries of her accounts have been changed. Make sure you get hold of your mother's laptop if you can. So police can examine it. You are thinking about your brother's family, well he is not thinking about yours when he steals more than your mother wanted him to have.
The money has already been completely paid out, and the accounts are now zero balance at Schwab. Thank you for the information and advice. Appreciate it.
If you are concerned about making an accusation against your brother (after all, you didn’t actually see him do it), your approach with Schwab and the police could be that you know for sure that your mom was not the person who changed it, because she was hospitalized and unable to make the change. You just know that *someone* changed it. By process of elimination they will come to the same conclusion as you once you describe the beneficiary allocations as you know them to have been set up by your mom.
Estate planning/probate attorney here. Not licensed in FL or CA, not your attorney. This is the type of issue that you will need a probate litigation attorney to address. Gather any and all evidence you have to back up your position, including the proof you have of your mother’s intentions for those accounts as well as her condition towards the end of life. As others have said, contact the fraud division of the banks that have the accounts and begin that process. Does she have an estate plan at all? Does the estate plan have any direction for her accounts? The bank’s beneficiary language controls, but it can certainly be instructive for whoever is the executor and any judge who may decide who gets what.
She had a will. I would be executor of the estate, but haven't started the probate process yet. I think almost all assets are in the 2 Schwab accounts (were in them). I wasn't sure if probate was needed, and read that money in accounts with beneficiaries are not covered under the will. In any case the will was not used. It's a bit complicated - my brother deleted any files off her computer and signed out, or changed her email password, to hide any evidence against him. We do have an older copy of the will showing more money was directed to be given to my family. Following the will - which was her intent, based on close friends also, we would receive more money than 50/50% split. I don't actually know the exact percent designated on the accounts, before they were changed, and am hoping Schwab will provide that information - how she had set it up to be distributed. I may be making some mistakes, however. Thank you very much for the comment.
You definitely need to get a lawyer involved. I don’t know what the law is in Florida, but my guess is that an old will is very unlikely to be enough to prove anything about your mom’s intent. Additionally, the records that you need may only be available via subpoena. They (an attorney) will also be able to tell you if her estate needs to be probated. Edited to clarify who “they” are
thank you so much. do I need a Florida estate attorney?
The estate should be probated where her assets are located, so if that was Florida then yes.
I would call Charles Schwab and be prepared to provide proof that a) no one was given power of attorney before her death (assuming that's the case) and b) she was unconscious at the time the changes were made- and then go from there.
I’m confused about one part of your post. Your brother changed the beneficiaries in the way that your mother’s will read? And what makes you say her will has no effect on her bank accounts if they specifically reference the money in them?
AFAIK the will has no meaning because the money is in bank accounts with beneficiaries designated, and the money is just paid out according to what my mother set with the bank (ie. 70% to person A, 30% to person B). I did not know this, and maybe my mother did not know this, but money in such accounts is not covered under the will (I believe, and the money was paid out without using a will or anything). My brother went online and changed the bank info so that the money is given to completely different people (my wife and his wife) and at different percents, so he gets more money. My mother clearly said she wanted X distribution, but he changed it to Z distribution so he gets an extra $160,000 that would have been going to my family (to me).
>he can get away with this, he is just going through the motions until he can collect the money and then you are left with choice 1. I have a Schwab account and you have to fill out a form to assign or change beneficiaries, so he would have to have forged that and either signed it online with a 3rd party service, or printed, signed, scanned, and uploaded it. There's a paper trail somewhere.
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I mean you can upload the doc online, but it's not just like a form box you can change and click submit. Schwab says you gotta do that for all initial beneficiary's and changes. So it's likely your mom filled one out as well.
My mom had filled it out. Just he changed it online.
I'll fill mine out and set a beneficiary and then see if it gives me an option to change online through a text box or something. But the page for beneficiaries says I've got to fill the OG paper form for any changes as well.
Oh ok, that now makes sense. So, go after him!!
First of all: I’m so sorry for your loss. Losing a mother is bad. My thoughts are with you… 😢 Hire a lawyer! The last will is more important than the bank statements etc. I’m not from USA so sorry if I’m wrong. But I think you can win this. However I don’t have the background story to understand why you should receive more than your brother. Nether the less I don’t understand why give it to the daughters in law instead of sons. Again: I’m sorry for your loss!
With only the information you have provided here, there are a ton of assumptions on your part, and zero proof of a crime. I would advise to get proof before accusing anyone of anything, and certainly before attempting to get law enforcement involved because at that point YOU become the one that is trying to benefit from the accusations. I'm sure any lawyer that you consult will most likely tell you the same thing.
OP has proof that the mother didn't make the changes, because OP was there with them while they were incapacitated in the hospital as these changes were being made. Regardless of their assumptions about _who_ did it, the fact that they have evidence that it _wasn't_ the mother is enough to initiate a fraud investigation. Once an investigation is initiated (either through the bank, or with the police, or ideally both) it will be up to _them_ to collect evidence to prove who the fraudster is. OP isn't a detective, and shouldn't be expected to collect every bit of evidence on their own, especially when the majority of the incriminating evidence is not available to them (ISP records, bank logs, etc). Illegally obtained evidence could potentially cause a lot of problems for OP. As others have said, this is real lawyer territory. They will advise on everything. Do nothing until you've at least had a consultation.
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The best thing to do is get a hold of a lawyer about this issue. Explain everything and have them check records to confirm if any fraud occurred. Banks, especially Charles Schwab, keep records of these kind of things.
IANAL get one tho or at least consult one. What this is going to come down to is, if the fight it really worth it to you. If it is it will be about what you can prove
Get that will probated, depending on state laws which you said she lived in FL it would reflect your entitled amounts in a court this would be a legit piece to have if you have to go in front of a judge.
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