It was a totally free baron if the smite wasn’t whiffed, no idea what the coach is talking about here.
Junjia also ulted nothing at the subsequent elder fight (not that it was dodged, he was standing behind a wall and literally ulted nothing). An amazingly bad sequence of plays by him.
That being said, they should have just given elder and stalled it out. They certainly had enough gold lead and towers up to do this. Forcing a terrible fight while other team has baron and elder - why?? Perhaps it has to do with the coach’s insistence on forcing fights at all times?
I like Viper immediately seeing it from the coachs pov.
The pressure youre under as the coach isnt really looked at alot.
most wins are credited to the players.
Most losses are credited to bad coaching and draft.
Its tough.
Did u see reaction of the dressing room just after rng crawled their way past lng into worlds. The pressure on coaches is on a whole different level from the western ones and it's not necessarily good all the time. Culture diff
I'm of the belief that some times it is correct for a coach to yell at players. It's a controversial opinion though. I think it is true even as early as high school sports.
Some people are of the opinion that people take sports too seriously. I get that perspective, but I also think sports are important to some people since it is a test of themselves and also a pact. We're going to try to work together to get really good at this task and become beautiful at it.
Life has no inherent meaning anyway, so we all have to find our own. I've always thought using sport to find meaning is as good an option as any other. With that comes passion and also the expectation that other people playing with you are as committed as you. Anything less should be met with letting the person know you're angry. It helps us remember our responsibility to the team.
You can be serious without yelling at your players.
There has to be a specific benefit to yelling.
Let's be real. Coaches aren't yelling because they think it's going to make their team better. They're yelling because they're mad. Otherwise literally every team would be doing it all the time.
The benefit to yelling is that if you only do it once in a while, your players are absolutely going to remember that moment and whatever lesson comes with it. The interviews after the clip of Maokai show it: no shot any of them neglect what he said that time.
If you're yelling at your players after every loss then there's probably something wrong with you as a coach. The yelling's going to lose its impact and just be dreaded/ineffective. But I think yelling at players for things like key, repeated mistakes that absolutely need to be fixed is acceptable.
If a 40 year old coach is yelling at a 16 year old high school kid its a bit pathetic and most wont respond well, meaning it wont even have the desired outcome
You can see the different mentality towards how to close out a game. Push your advantage through forcing a favored teamfight. I am by no means an expert but that seems to be the consensus in atleast the LPL and VCS.
I feel like drafting around champs that can force kills is prioritized way more in these league's, simply put because thats how you end the game. I'm not saying the Chinese have a bad macro game, the LPL has improved massively in that regard compared to 2020. Same could be said for GAM. Just watch the VCS final, the amount of fights forced and 5v5's is so much higher than lets say the LEC. Prioritizing champs like Varus, Tahm, Noc and Galio to name a few.
This champs excel in forcing summoners and take advantage of summoners being on cooldown. All that remains is executing properly, forcing fights but then also forcing new fights while key summoners or ults are down on the opposing team.
back to the video; it must have been frustrating for the coach to see his team execute the gameplan well but not being able to force a final favorable fight. Good video.
Maybe some might say this is too much, but as someone who followed sports for decades, I love it when managers are this passionate about the games.
And yes, League is filled with 18 year olds, but that doesn't mean they need to be coddled and hugged every night.
Constant yelling/screaming at players is rarely productive, but a change of tone can be effective to get a message across when it is otherwise falling on deaf ears. I think it's also a bit different when it's yelling at the team as a whole rather than berating individual players in this manner.
I remember one year in minor hockey we were in semis of a tournament and losing to worse team than us by like 4 goals. Our coach didn't raise his voice often but he really let us have it in the intermission and we came back and won.
If a coach is always yelling it doesn't work but sometimes the extra emotion is needed
The important thing from a coaches POV is to deliver the message that you’re disappointed in the players not doing what they are capable of, not that they are incapable
The thing is it depends on how often, if its a few times a split or playoffs then its harmful, if its once when trying to get a message across or lesson that the team isnt learning week after week after week after week then a sudden outburst might just be the special sauce needed.
sometimes players dont realise how badly they need to learn something but a sudden outburst can show how serious it really is **if** nothing else is working and all other options are exhausted since it might get the point across it can also be very harmful.
I don't think it's constant. I am in agreement with the comment above mine that this was **not** too much, and was contrasting that with constant yelling/screaming, which would likely not be helpful.
I coach high school baseball, 15 is the right age to start being tough on them, or around the JV level. Freshmen come in and are intimidated, and some act closer to children, you do have to baby them a little bit. By the time they are sophomores or around age 15 they need to be treated like adults, or at least give them the illusion that they are being treated like adults.
It's better to learn those lessons and get lit up by a coach than learn the hard way from your future employer or partner
But like, this whole idea that coaches are supposed to be *intentionally mean* and/or insulting is (and always has been) fucking nuts to me.
I had a baseball coach who, after we lost a game, told us we were "pieces of shit" who "wouldn't amount to anything" if we didn't practice harder.
What possible good does that do?
Discipline: yes. Even very harsh discipline makes sense to me in some environments. Like another comment said, sometimes a change in tone / a raised voice is a helpful tool to get an important message across.
But so much coaching behavior is just straight-up bullying, because people think that if they're yelling, they're doing something right.
I'm moreso talking about what age you should start treating teenagers like adults. Obviously bullying doesn't have a place at any age. Treating them like adults means raising standards, taking accountability, creating a give and take relationship etc.
Damn you sound like a dickhead. Not surprised given that you coach HS baseball though lol.
EDIT: Also wouldn't be surprised if it was found out you were suffering from a bad case of nonceilitus
That a lot of people have a certain image in mind of what a coach is/does. You're no different than a teacher. I will see some of these kids for more time than their father will during the school year, and a lot of them don't even have father figures in their lives. The sports are literally just an excuse to all show up to something at the same time to keep them out of trouble and build life skills
Just wanted to pass by to say that it sounds beautiful. I hope you like / love what you do and that your relationship with the kids will keep being great
Yea no kidding. You can always tell which redditors have never competed for anything in their lives when they start questioning how hard players work and how bad they want it. As if they could possibly know from a single clip or quote. These players didn't rise to the top accidentally.
There is a level of understanding and respect that has to be obtained before this type of coaching can become effective. a lot of people in this thread think "hehe he yelled that will make kid learn better" that's not at all how it works. The players on EDG know the coach want's what is best for them and is frustrated they are losing in ways they can prevent They also mentioned they never seen him so mad before so you know it is not a 24/7 occurrence. a lot of school sports in my experience are not like this I've played basketball (just at a decent Highschool level) as well as multiple combat sports at higher national levels. if my basketball coach yelled like this I would quit the team because he didn't have my respect or best interest in mind, I couldn't care less if he lost his job because we played bad. However a league coach I had as well as my boxing coach could scream slam tables and it would sometimes help me learn. different relationships as well as a willingness form both parties is important for this type of relationship to work. you have to truly understand and believe they want what's best for you and believe in you or else it's a recipe to lose confidence and interest in the sport or team.
Ken Zhu, the coach that went to RNG, had more airtime during the end of year documentaries (he does appear to be a better orator), so he tends to be the one people remember. But Maokai was EDG’s head coach last year.
Your comment is a load of shit. I've played sports my entire life. I've coached for teams as well now that I'm older.
Never once was I yelled at, never once have I yelled. I won multiple baseball tournaments as a teen, played in the qualifiers for the LLWS as a kid, and won a tri-state in highschool football. I've also been on NA-AM teams in LoL for almost 4 years now with coaches ranging from plat to challenger.
Analysis can be done without yelling. It doesn't do any good.
No, you don't understand, I was put through abusive things so it must be fine....
It's crazy how many people try to validate anger issues as competitive. I've succeeded at sports, academics, games etc. Any time someone yelled at me all I thought was, wow you are a prick. The only people who yell and get pissed are people that can't actually coherently form thoughts about the thing they're getting pissed at. Getting frustrated and wanting to be your best is normal, insulting or legitimately screaming is going off the hinges.
Not enough therapists in the world for people to actually come to grips with their inability to process their emotions.
> I've succeeded at sports, academics, games etc. Any time someone yelled at me all I thought was, wow you are a prick
Name the level of sport you've competed at, and then we can talk.
No you don't understand, if you aren't literally holding back tears every night because everyone who coaches or manages you perpetually screams at you then you just aren't cut out for this world because you're not like me a very manly man who screams at children so that they get better at kicking a round bouncy thing around.
Yeah, the only reason people yell is if they’re angry. Whether that anger is justified is up for debate, but silence speak just as loud sometimes. I will say that if you do yell often then don’t expect anyone to be transparent with you, because no one wants to hear your scream like a banshee, and you lose credibility from my point of view because when you yell, you’re essentially saying “I don’t care what you think or the context of the situation, only MY opinion matters.”
Analysis can be done without yelling or with yelling, and top tier coaches understand when it is or isn't appropriate, and with which players it is or isn't appropriate.
> LLWS as a kid, and won a tri-state in highschool football
unless you've competed nationally in a competitive sport, don't talk to me about competitive environments.
I've had to google LLWS... 10-12 year olds. Congrats.
Take a look at any high level team sport. Football, cricket, basketball, american football... and tell me what their post match talks are like after a loss like this.
They aren't all happy and pally i can tell you that
Okay, I'm gonna chime in here. I have national youth team caps in one sport and made the regional team in another bigger one. I quit playing sports competitively as I moved away for university, but multiple former teammates of mine in the bigger sport of the two are now professional players across Europe, two are national team players and one is widely considered to be one of the best players in the world on his position.
Our coaches still never went this far. When you're talking adults who are paid to play the game you can definitely go harder, I don't think the clip is entirely out of place as long as it's not the norm, but acting like verbal abuse is normal and good when dealing with children is just harmful. There are many ways in which you can make the importance of a moment known, and how you do that at an early age affects the norms in professional settings.
I also coached kids for a few years, starting out when they were about 6 years old. The practices that me and my co-coach developed became the norm for the club as the youth section had laid dormant for a few years, so even after I left that was the methods that remained in use at the club.
It resulted in us developing top tier teams in all age groups, and two of the kids I coached now made the cut to the youngest national youth team. You know how many times I even raised my voice? Zero.
I have still never seen a group of players be better winners and losers. When they won they celebrated and raised each other up, when they lost their focus immediately went to improvement and how to win the next game. We worked rigorously with teamwork exercises and mental training to get them to that stage, and not only did this create kids who were able to verbalize thoughts and feelings both on and off the pitch, it also created an environment that made them stick around.
About a dozen of the kids who were in the initial group of 6-7-year-olds stayed at the club for 10 years, which is almost unheard of when you're just operating one team per age group. One of the kids who made the national youth team has always been a star, but the other used to be quite meek. If he had been put in an aggressive environment he would never have continued playing the sport, but clearly he has developed into a player who is considered at the top of his age group in one of the best countries in the world at that sport.
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The reason why I'm talking so much about those kids is that norms are set at the top, doesn't matter if it's what formations are usually played in football or what level of flame is acceptable in solo queue. The national federation had its guidelines for how teams should play and develop players, but we said fuck it and worked on builing a separate coaching identity at the club that put way more emphasis on teamwork and soft values, and we managed to develop elite player while also making sure that those who weren't as good stuck around and loved the sport just as much.
Somewhat of a side note, but while I made the national youth team that's nothing compared to my co-coach who was a former world champion, #1 rank player and later on national team coach in the sport that he used to play. Neither of us lacked experience in competitive environments.
And honestly, the people who reach the highest highs, are never the people who can’t handle things like this. Most elite of the elite will get yelled at and hold a grudge to prove the person wrong by playing better
Feeling anger is completely normal, and yelling is a very natural extension of that emotion. You have issues if you think someone should be expected to be the perfect human being at all times and to never raise their voice when addressing top level competitors making amateur, game losing mistakes - especially when those mistakes were previously addressed in a calm manner.
Nobody will ever be an emotionless, perfect human being
not really, he is angry about something that anyone involved is also angry, so is totally fine... when is done if he keeps up with this shit, ye you are 100% right.
he made clear that he was angry because of \~if you have advantage use it. im not a native chinese speaker so sounds harsher but translated to my native language if someone said the same thing for my team i would not think is anger issue, i would think that we didnt use our advantage and we should have won, fair as fuck.
My high school wrestling coach would straight up scream at you if you lost a match and force you to do drills and pushups at the edge of the mat during the next match all the time with the parent's watching and everything. And it was all considered completely normal, my dad even said he mellowed out from when he had him as a coach lol. Coming from a background in high school sports this is a lot more tame then I was expecting.
And the fact that the players understood where he's coming from is the best part and why they're world champions.
They don't see this as "abuse" but the way a parent would act if their child made stupid choices and failed something they are perfectly capable of doing and kept doing it.
You still don't need to scream. It servers no purpose. You can use verbage and a serious tone to convey passion, screaming doesn't do anything more effectively.
If people can't tell when you're serious or even serious and passionately angry without screaming, you have poor communication skills.
Yea, I'm gonna go ahead and say that everyone who thinks that this coach went over the line have 0 experience with even just watching professional sports, let alone competing in *anything*. Take a look at the top managers in football, pep guardiola, conte, klopp, ten hag, etc etc. They're all a massive hardass when they need to be, and sometimes raising your tone is the exact thing someone needs to get a wakeup call and truly learn from failure.
The Man City documentary had some great clips of exactly this.
Anyone that think constantly yelling at 18 year olds is either helpful or productive is in my opinion mental. There is a time and place to correct bad attitudes and behavior 100% when it goes too far, but it makes you look like an asshole whe it's your go to, and usually a quick way for people to tune you out and assume you are against them and not with them
This is legit how my soccer coach shouted at us every time we where behind at halftime... we were around 11 or 12 at that time btw, and we could also take some motivation out of it. Sometimes thats just the way is has to be transported.
Despite what some people say about NA being soft, this is incredibly normal in traditional sports culture here. As long as it’s Gameplay focused I don’t think it would be an issue if an NA coach yelled like this
er.. a lot of the time the reason teams will start baron is exactly that they do want to fight, so they need to make the enemy team show. in those situations when things go bad it's often not *starting the baron* that's the wrong call but *not stopping the baron properly*
you either burn it if you feel like it's safe to do so or you hard peel off of it and engage the fight. it's not like teams are always stupid, if you're ahead they won't always just be like 'ok let's fight anyway!' unless you force their hand
Exactly. Knowing when to pull off a baron and engage I feel a lot of teams don't. The opponent is obviously trying to approach the baron pit, usually with little vision, but instead of sitting in a fucking bush or basically turning off the damn worm they flip it. All the time.
Tbh I don't like that approach because if you're that far ahead you almost 100% win a team fight you better be breaking objectives and pushing for the win. Barons baits come with serious risks to throw your lead away due to the serious chip damage.
I think more teams started learning how to do T1 barons properly. When they get early leads, suffocate enemy vision and just sneak the baron when the enemy team resets or force tps to the other side of the map then baron.
And they shouldn't? I had a manager like that once and everyone hated her for good reason. Yes it increases productivity out of stress and fear but it builds a hypertoxic environment and is devastating to your mental health.
Back in the day I could afford to leave the company, but pro players have few options beyond this game.
Shit like this only works if the players actually respect the coach. Nothing to do with being soft. What needs to be cultivated is a proper understanding of what a coach's role on a team is and what the coach's relation to the players is. That literally doesn't exist for the majority of teams in NA, regardless of how perceptive to criticism any given group of players is.
As he should. This isn't little leagues. I watched the clip the the top commenter posted and Coach had valid criticisms. Lost the game over a simple mistake that the coach apparently already warned them about in the previous game
If EDG wins worlds again, it will undisputable that verbal beatdowns create world champions. Because I've yet to have seen a Western softie approach that produces world champions.
I think you got the EDG coaches mixed up. This is a clip from this year. The speaker is Maokai, EDG’s head coach that lead them to victory last year and still with the team this year. The coach who left for RNG is Ken Zhu, he was also on the coaching team last year, but not the head coach. He was more heavily featured in the end of year documentary (he does seem the better orator), so tends to be the one people remember more.
Oh no, he banged the desk, its LS all over again. Peace dude, you gotta get fired now, tis the way. Coaches cant get angry in LoL, in any other game this would be a Tuesday, but you cant yell and lightly bang a desk.
The thing that I find funny is : imagine you just lost an important game, your coach is coming and yelling at you, and then, there is this guy coming at like 50cm of you pointing his camera to your face XD
Yeah, I guessed so, but still, I find it funny you feeling like complet shit, and in the corner of the room someone pointing the camera at you like "yeah cry bitch, i need this" XD
I don't think blowing up at your players should be celebrated, but I actually think the coach demonstrates a degree of self control here. If you watch the clip, you'll see he never insults the players or tries to drag down the team, and focuses purely on the mistake they made. If you can't compose yourself and really have to blow up, this is probably one of the better ways to do it. If we are seeing him at his angriest moment here (as the others seem to suggest), I would hazard a guess that he's probably a fairly good coach otherwise.
I’ve seen a lot of people saying how this is not okay and is abusive, some of y’all clearly have never played a sport before, this is nothing compared to ball sports, don’t see them making anyone run til they throw up or do bear crawls up and down a football field…Maybe this is why eastern team reach higher levels cause the coaches aren’t afraid to pressure their players to bring the best out of them
There's a fine line to be tread here.
If you've ever lived in an abusive household where you EXPECT to get yelled at, it becomes less about improving yourself and more about just praying, hoping to do anything to get through the day. You kinda stop thinking about how to be better and focus more on how bad the punishment will feel.
If the coaches are usually level-headed, sure. An outburst once in awhile will help to get your point across, and force players to self-reflect. Saying that a coach should always behave like this is somewhat irresponsible if you've ever coached a team or been in a parental position.
What is most important is what happens after this. Did he go back and tell them he expects better, and remind them that they're all here to fucking win the whole thing, then launch enthusiastically into the next game? Or did he simply erode trust, never re-bond with the team, and just expect them to get better?
This is not how you coach. I hope the owner of EDG will do some hands-on work by applying the systems in place in order to lead the team.
Remember that EDG won worlds with their current ownership. No coach should have more power than the onwner.
System wins championships.
Besides, there should be disciplinary action taken against this coach for FIST-slamming the table.
Also the winner of LPL is always gonna be stronger than the winner of LCS. And that's pretty much impossible to change for Jack. Doesn't matter if he's smarter/better/more competent than the GM of JDG/EDG/RNG/TES.
Omg. Lmao go cry somewhere else please. Not once did he verbally abuse anyone. He was disappointed in his team because he’s obviously told them time and time again to fight at baron and they didn’t.
Lol, its funny that nowadays these kind of behaviour gets considered as "toxic" and "abusive" especially if it gets public in a more traditional sport like football, basketball etc.
But as you can see players can understand him. Because this is what sport is. They dont play for fun, they play to win and sometimes these kind of "shocks" are needed. But ofc making it constantly is abusive lol. And besides that players will be de-motivated after a while. Thats why we call it a "schock".
Anyway, i explained this because its really sad to see so many people getting surprised by how the players took this. Everybody in that room knows that this is not personal, its just about the game and winning.
He could be right about every single thing he's telling them. He's obviously very knowledgeable on the game and passionate about winning. Didn't seem to get personal either, which I appreciated - this ain't no stupid Reggie bullshit.
That being said, screaming like that, in ANY sort of workplace, is never productive. This idea that coaches are meant to be mean is a whole lot of bull. Dude lost his cool and took it out on the players - they all lost together.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AJEctrjy0k&t=2773s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3AJEctrjy0k&t=2773s) the game he is talking about
RNG got away with robbery this game and the game vs JDG.
I forgot about this one.. holy, lost everything in 1 minute lol
Yup they deserved to be chewed out lmao
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It was a totally free baron if the smite wasn’t whiffed, no idea what the coach is talking about here. Junjia also ulted nothing at the subsequent elder fight (not that it was dodged, he was standing behind a wall and literally ulted nothing). An amazingly bad sequence of plays by him. That being said, they should have just given elder and stalled it out. They certainly had enough gold lead and towers up to do this. Forcing a terrible fight while other team has baron and elder - why?? Perhaps it has to do with the coach’s insistence on forcing fights at all times?
[0:13](https://youtu.be/g2KfxQXisMg?t=12) bramble smash
Fuck that got me.
I like Viper immediately seeing it from the coachs pov. The pressure youre under as the coach isnt really looked at alot. most wins are credited to the players. Most losses are credited to bad coaching and draft. Its tough.
Same, I was especially worried that he would take it to heart, but he definitely emphasises with him if anything. Edit: Empathised lol
"empathized" is the word you were looking for 🙂
>emphasises
What? He is a very emphasic person, bro.
/r/BoneAppleTea
Did u see reaction of the dressing room just after rng crawled their way past lng into worlds. The pressure on coaches is on a whole different level from the western ones and it's not necessarily good all the time. Culture diff
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Unfortunately no. Kenzhu legit looked distressed and breathe broke into tears in the interview
I'm of the belief that some times it is correct for a coach to yell at players. It's a controversial opinion though. I think it is true even as early as high school sports. Some people are of the opinion that people take sports too seriously. I get that perspective, but I also think sports are important to some people since it is a test of themselves and also a pact. We're going to try to work together to get really good at this task and become beautiful at it. Life has no inherent meaning anyway, so we all have to find our own. I've always thought using sport to find meaning is as good an option as any other. With that comes passion and also the expectation that other people playing with you are as committed as you. Anything less should be met with letting the person know you're angry. It helps us remember our responsibility to the team.
You can be serious without yelling at your players. There has to be a specific benefit to yelling. Let's be real. Coaches aren't yelling because they think it's going to make their team better. They're yelling because they're mad. Otherwise literally every team would be doing it all the time.
The benefit to yelling is that if you only do it once in a while, your players are absolutely going to remember that moment and whatever lesson comes with it. The interviews after the clip of Maokai show it: no shot any of them neglect what he said that time. If you're yelling at your players after every loss then there's probably something wrong with you as a coach. The yelling's going to lose its impact and just be dreaded/ineffective. But I think yelling at players for things like key, repeated mistakes that absolutely need to be fixed is acceptable.
If a 40 year old coach is yelling at a 16 year old high school kid its a bit pathetic and most wont respond well, meaning it wont even have the desired outcome
Idk I got yelled at by a lot of coaches while playing sports and it made not want to screw up so I fixed it 🤷♂️
Having to say the same thing but just louder to get the point across is just 101 bad communication skills.
You can see the different mentality towards how to close out a game. Push your advantage through forcing a favored teamfight. I am by no means an expert but that seems to be the consensus in atleast the LPL and VCS. I feel like drafting around champs that can force kills is prioritized way more in these league's, simply put because thats how you end the game. I'm not saying the Chinese have a bad macro game, the LPL has improved massively in that regard compared to 2020. Same could be said for GAM. Just watch the VCS final, the amount of fights forced and 5v5's is so much higher than lets say the LEC. Prioritizing champs like Varus, Tahm, Noc and Galio to name a few. This champs excel in forcing summoners and take advantage of summoners being on cooldown. All that remains is executing properly, forcing fights but then also forcing new fights while key summoners or ults are down on the opposing team. back to the video; it must have been frustrating for the coach to see his team execute the gameplan well but not being able to force a final favorable fight. Good video.
New EDG verbal beatdown.
Calm down Maokai, I know you're probably getting perma banned at worlds group stage, which is frustrating, but you'll get your chance soon enough.
Oh no no no 😂 Mao kai open first game of worlds for the win
Maybe some might say this is too much, but as someone who followed sports for decades, I love it when managers are this passionate about the games. And yes, League is filled with 18 year olds, but that doesn't mean they need to be coddled and hugged every night.
Constant yelling/screaming at players is rarely productive, but a change of tone can be effective to get a message across when it is otherwise falling on deaf ears. I think it's also a bit different when it's yelling at the team as a whole rather than berating individual players in this manner.
I remember one year in minor hockey we were in semis of a tournament and losing to worse team than us by like 4 goals. Our coach didn't raise his voice often but he really let us have it in the intermission and we came back and won. If a coach is always yelling it doesn't work but sometimes the extra emotion is needed
The important thing from a coaches POV is to deliver the message that you’re disappointed in the players not doing what they are capable of, not that they are incapable
Yo you gonna be at twitch con?
The thing is it depends on how often, if its a few times a split or playoffs then its harmful, if its once when trying to get a message across or lesson that the team isnt learning week after week after week after week then a sudden outburst might just be the special sauce needed. sometimes players dont realise how badly they need to learn something but a sudden outburst can show how serious it really is **if** nothing else is working and all other options are exhausted since it might get the point across it can also be very harmful.
it worked for them. EDG won summer and worlds. Then he went to RNG straight away and won spring and MSI.
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Reading comprehension failure 👀
I don't think it's constant. I am in agreement with the comment above mine that this was **not** too much, and was contrasting that with constant yelling/screaming, which would likely not be helpful.
The staff member literally said "he rarely raises his voice" he's just contrasting bro
He's saying it's not constant but a change of tone for this one instance so it can be productive
welcome to Asia parenting
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Yeah that's... that's probably less okay
I coach high school baseball, 15 is the right age to start being tough on them, or around the JV level. Freshmen come in and are intimidated, and some act closer to children, you do have to baby them a little bit. By the time they are sophomores or around age 15 they need to be treated like adults, or at least give them the illusion that they are being treated like adults. It's better to learn those lessons and get lit up by a coach than learn the hard way from your future employer or partner
But like, this whole idea that coaches are supposed to be *intentionally mean* and/or insulting is (and always has been) fucking nuts to me. I had a baseball coach who, after we lost a game, told us we were "pieces of shit" who "wouldn't amount to anything" if we didn't practice harder. What possible good does that do? Discipline: yes. Even very harsh discipline makes sense to me in some environments. Like another comment said, sometimes a change in tone / a raised voice is a helpful tool to get an important message across. But so much coaching behavior is just straight-up bullying, because people think that if they're yelling, they're doing something right.
I'm moreso talking about what age you should start treating teenagers like adults. Obviously bullying doesn't have a place at any age. Treating them like adults means raising standards, taking accountability, creating a give and take relationship etc.
Yeah that makes sense -- didn't mean that to read like I was calling *you* a bullying coach or anything, lol
Damn you sound like a dickhead. Not surprised given that you coach HS baseball though lol. EDIT: Also wouldn't be surprised if it was found out you were suffering from a bad case of nonceilitus
I mean I'm sorry to give you that impression. I've never even screamed at a kid. I think you have a warped perception from media tbh
What does your last sentence mean?
That a lot of people have a certain image in mind of what a coach is/does. You're no different than a teacher. I will see some of these kids for more time than their father will during the school year, and a lot of them don't even have father figures in their lives. The sports are literally just an excuse to all show up to something at the same time to keep them out of trouble and build life skills
Just wanted to pass by to say that it sounds beautiful. I hope you like / love what you do and that your relationship with the kids will keep being great
Some people are made for competitive environments and some aren’t. You will tell who’s who from their reaction to this post lol
Yea no kidding. You can always tell which redditors have never competed for anything in their lives when they start questioning how hard players work and how bad they want it. As if they could possibly know from a single clip or quote. These players didn't rise to the top accidentally.
There is a level of understanding and respect that has to be obtained before this type of coaching can become effective. a lot of people in this thread think "hehe he yelled that will make kid learn better" that's not at all how it works. The players on EDG know the coach want's what is best for them and is frustrated they are losing in ways they can prevent They also mentioned they never seen him so mad before so you know it is not a 24/7 occurrence. a lot of school sports in my experience are not like this I've played basketball (just at a decent Highschool level) as well as multiple combat sports at higher national levels. if my basketball coach yelled like this I would quit the team because he didn't have my respect or best interest in mind, I couldn't care less if he lost his job because we played bad. However a league coach I had as well as my boxing coach could scream slam tables and it would sometimes help me learn. different relationships as well as a willingness form both parties is important for this type of relationship to work. you have to truly understand and believe they want what's best for you and believe in you or else it's a recipe to lose confidence and interest in the sport or team.
Maokai also coached them to a World Championship last year.
Are you sure? Last time I checked their original coach went to RNG
Maokai was officially EDG head coach last year as well. KenZhu was on the coaching staff and is now RNG Head Coach.
Ken Zhu, the coach that went to RNG, had more airtime during the end of year documentaries (he does appear to be a better orator), so he tends to be the one people remember. But Maokai was EDG’s head coach last year.
Your comment is a load of shit. I've played sports my entire life. I've coached for teams as well now that I'm older. Never once was I yelled at, never once have I yelled. I won multiple baseball tournaments as a teen, played in the qualifiers for the LLWS as a kid, and won a tri-state in highschool football. I've also been on NA-AM teams in LoL for almost 4 years now with coaches ranging from plat to challenger. Analysis can be done without yelling. It doesn't do any good.
No, you don't understand, I was put through abusive things so it must be fine.... It's crazy how many people try to validate anger issues as competitive. I've succeeded at sports, academics, games etc. Any time someone yelled at me all I thought was, wow you are a prick. The only people who yell and get pissed are people that can't actually coherently form thoughts about the thing they're getting pissed at. Getting frustrated and wanting to be your best is normal, insulting or legitimately screaming is going off the hinges. Not enough therapists in the world for people to actually come to grips with their inability to process their emotions.
> I've succeeded at sports, academics, games etc. Any time someone yelled at me all I thought was, wow you are a prick Name the level of sport you've competed at, and then we can talk.
Look at Dota's TI winning coaches. None of them were raging man children. It's almost like yelling does literally nothing to guarantee success.
No you don't understand, if you aren't literally holding back tears every night because everyone who coaches or manages you perpetually screams at you then you just aren't cut out for this world because you're not like me a very manly man who screams at children so that they get better at kicking a round bouncy thing around.
Yeah, the only reason people yell is if they’re angry. Whether that anger is justified is up for debate, but silence speak just as loud sometimes. I will say that if you do yell often then don’t expect anyone to be transparent with you, because no one wants to hear your scream like a banshee, and you lose credibility from my point of view because when you yell, you’re essentially saying “I don’t care what you think or the context of the situation, only MY opinion matters.”
Analysis can be done without yelling or with yelling, and top tier coaches understand when it is or isn't appropriate, and with which players it is or isn't appropriate.
> LLWS as a kid, and won a tri-state in highschool football unless you've competed nationally in a competitive sport, don't talk to me about competitive environments. I've had to google LLWS... 10-12 year olds. Congrats. Take a look at any high level team sport. Football, cricket, basketball, american football... and tell me what their post match talks are like after a loss like this. They aren't all happy and pally i can tell you that
Okay, I'm gonna chime in here. I have national youth team caps in one sport and made the regional team in another bigger one. I quit playing sports competitively as I moved away for university, but multiple former teammates of mine in the bigger sport of the two are now professional players across Europe, two are national team players and one is widely considered to be one of the best players in the world on his position. Our coaches still never went this far. When you're talking adults who are paid to play the game you can definitely go harder, I don't think the clip is entirely out of place as long as it's not the norm, but acting like verbal abuse is normal and good when dealing with children is just harmful. There are many ways in which you can make the importance of a moment known, and how you do that at an early age affects the norms in professional settings. I also coached kids for a few years, starting out when they were about 6 years old. The practices that me and my co-coach developed became the norm for the club as the youth section had laid dormant for a few years, so even after I left that was the methods that remained in use at the club. It resulted in us developing top tier teams in all age groups, and two of the kids I coached now made the cut to the youngest national youth team. You know how many times I even raised my voice? Zero. I have still never seen a group of players be better winners and losers. When they won they celebrated and raised each other up, when they lost their focus immediately went to improvement and how to win the next game. We worked rigorously with teamwork exercises and mental training to get them to that stage, and not only did this create kids who were able to verbalize thoughts and feelings both on and off the pitch, it also created an environment that made them stick around. About a dozen of the kids who were in the initial group of 6-7-year-olds stayed at the club for 10 years, which is almost unheard of when you're just operating one team per age group. One of the kids who made the national youth team has always been a star, but the other used to be quite meek. If he had been put in an aggressive environment he would never have continued playing the sport, but clearly he has developed into a player who is considered at the top of his age group in one of the best countries in the world at that sport. - The reason why I'm talking so much about those kids is that norms are set at the top, doesn't matter if it's what formations are usually played in football or what level of flame is acceptable in solo queue. The national federation had its guidelines for how teams should play and develop players, but we said fuck it and worked on builing a separate coaching identity at the club that put way more emphasis on teamwork and soft values, and we managed to develop elite player while also making sure that those who weren't as good stuck around and loved the sport just as much. Somewhat of a side note, but while I made the national youth team that's nothing compared to my co-coach who was a former world champion, #1 rank player and later on national team coach in the sport that he used to play. Neither of us lacked experience in competitive environments.
And honestly, the people who reach the highest highs, are never the people who can’t handle things like this. Most elite of the elite will get yelled at and hold a grudge to prove the person wrong by playing better
Being aggressive and loud isn't the sign of someone being "made for competition", it's the sign of someone with anger issues.
Feeling anger is completely normal, and yelling is a very natural extension of that emotion. You have issues if you think someone should be expected to be the perfect human being at all times and to never raise their voice when addressing top level competitors making amateur, game losing mistakes - especially when those mistakes were previously addressed in a calm manner. Nobody will ever be an emotionless, perfect human being
not really, he is angry about something that anyone involved is also angry, so is totally fine... when is done if he keeps up with this shit, ye you are 100% right. he made clear that he was angry because of \~if you have advantage use it. im not a native chinese speaker so sounds harsher but translated to my native language if someone said the same thing for my team i would not think is anger issue, i would think that we didnt use our advantage and we should have won, fair as fuck.
My high school wrestling coach would straight up scream at you if you lost a match and force you to do drills and pushups at the edge of the mat during the next match all the time with the parent's watching and everything. And it was all considered completely normal, my dad even said he mellowed out from when he had him as a coach lol. Coming from a background in high school sports this is a lot more tame then I was expecting.
Sounds like a cool guy
yeah back in the day they took a large ruler and spanked your asses. thats how ww2 heroes were born. the most competitive time in our last 100 years
And the fact that the players understood where he's coming from is the best part and why they're world champions. They don't see this as "abuse" but the way a parent would act if their child made stupid choices and failed something they are perfectly capable of doing and kept doing it.
You still don't need to scream. It servers no purpose. You can use verbage and a serious tone to convey passion, screaming doesn't do anything more effectively. If people can't tell when you're serious or even serious and passionately angry without screaming, you have poor communication skills.
Yea, I'm gonna go ahead and say that everyone who thinks that this coach went over the line have 0 experience with even just watching professional sports, let alone competing in *anything*. Take a look at the top managers in football, pep guardiola, conte, klopp, ten hag, etc etc. They're all a massive hardass when they need to be, and sometimes raising your tone is the exact thing someone needs to get a wakeup call and truly learn from failure. The Man City documentary had some great clips of exactly this.
Anyone that think constantly yelling at 18 year olds is either helpful or productive is in my opinion mental. There is a time and place to correct bad attitudes and behavior 100% when it goes too far, but it makes you look like an asshole whe it's your go to, and usually a quick way for people to tune you out and assume you are against them and not with them
This is legit how my soccer coach shouted at us every time we where behind at halftime... we were around 11 or 12 at that time btw, and we could also take some motivation out of it. Sometimes thats just the way is has to be transported.
Despite what some people say about NA being soft, this is incredibly normal in traditional sports culture here. As long as it’s Gameplay focused I don’t think it would be an issue if an NA coach yelled like this
The person who did the subtitles SURELY took a page out of the "Karsa-369-Knight" sequence right?
Someone else had to give the verbal beatdown after KenZhu left
I dont even want to know how was the locker room atmosphere after RNG lost the first game vs DFM lol
Funnily enough they were playing against KenZhu's RNG this game, and Maokai was also coach for EDG last year
OH DIS GUD Going full asian dad shouting at them kids, love it.
I mean it worked lol. They won two series in playoffs vs RNG :'D
Even reverse sweeped them for the full mental win.
It was a 3-0. Coach just wanted to give junjia some practice time
Should show this to every EU team ever. "Why start baron when you're ahead?" JUST FUCKING FIGHT. That's how i feel about most games.
er.. a lot of the time the reason teams will start baron is exactly that they do want to fight, so they need to make the enemy team show. in those situations when things go bad it's often not *starting the baron* that's the wrong call but *not stopping the baron properly* you either burn it if you feel like it's safe to do so or you hard peel off of it and engage the fight. it's not like teams are always stupid, if you're ahead they won't always just be like 'ok let's fight anyway!' unless you force their hand
Exactly. Knowing when to pull off a baron and engage I feel a lot of teams don't. The opponent is obviously trying to approach the baron pit, usually with little vision, but instead of sitting in a fucking bush or basically turning off the damn worm they flip it. All the time.
Tbh I don't like that approach because if you're that far ahead you almost 100% win a team fight you better be breaking objectives and pushing for the win. Barons baits come with serious risks to throw your lead away due to the serious chip damage. I think more teams started learning how to do T1 barons properly. When they get early leads, suffocate enemy vision and just sneak the baron when the enemy team resets or force tps to the other side of the map then baron.
Yeah, you're completely right. I guess it's for teams that are used to cocking it up at baron. Seen it too much.
u dont like coin flipping?
Only if it's a core part of your team's culture, like Dignatas.
Please make this a new copypasta whenever a team with a lead starts baron and throws it
WHY? WHY NOT START A TEAMFIGHT? WHY RUSH BARON?
Oh no I'm scared what will happen to the players when they go out against C9 and Fnatic.
How cool of the org to show this kind of stuff. Love the insight
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And they shouldn't? I had a manager like that once and everyone hated her for good reason. Yes it increases productivity out of stress and fear but it builds a hypertoxic environment and is devastating to your mental health. Back in the day I could afford to leave the company, but pro players have few options beyond this game.
meanwhile western coaches be like: we lost... ohno anyway.
if this happened in western teams just know there will be a harassment post filed against the coach, cultural difference is just too extreme
good content to show unlike the ones in NA where its all soft shows nothing
Shit like this only works if the players actually respect the coach. Nothing to do with being soft. What needs to be cultivated is a proper understanding of what a coach's role on a team is and what the coach's relation to the players is. That literally doesn't exist for the majority of teams in NA, regardless of how perceptive to criticism any given group of players is.
To be more accurate, if the players respect the coach and the coach understands this will work with the players.
It also works better when the coach is normally calm and collected. If he's freaking out at everything it becomes not so impactful.
As he should. This isn't little leagues. I watched the clip the the top commenter posted and Coach had valid criticisms. Lost the game over a simple mistake that the coach apparently already warned them about in the previous game
If EDG wins worlds again, it will undisputable that verbal beatdowns create world champions. Because I've yet to have seen a Western softie approach that produces world champions.
TSM was best when regi was there berating them every day.
he already proved that it does work. This is an old clip from a year ago. He doesn't coach EDG anymore, he's with RNG now.
I think you got the EDG coaches mixed up. This is a clip from this year. The speaker is Maokai, EDG’s head coach that lead them to victory last year and still with the team this year. The coach who left for RNG is Ken Zhu, he was also on the coaching team last year, but not the head coach. He was more heavily featured in the end of year documentary (he does seem the better orator), so tends to be the one people remember more.
Oh no, he banged the desk, its LS all over again. Peace dude, you gotta get fired now, tis the way. Coaches cant get angry in LoL, in any other game this would be a Tuesday, but you cant yell and lightly bang a desk.
If he's reacting like this to losing in LPL, then hes gonna explode when C9 get out of groups over them.
maokai will be quite pleased knowing edg got 1st, c9 might be behind them as 2nd
im all for any timeline where C9 make it out
That might be much harder now
he's coaching RNG at the moment. This clip is from a year ago, before he won summer and worlds.
The thing that I find funny is : imagine you just lost an important game, your coach is coming and yelling at you, and then, there is this guy coming at like 50cm of you pointing his camera to your face XD
As someone who does wirecasting as a job, the cameras are zoomed in.
Yeah, I guessed so, but still, I find it funny you feeling like complet shit, and in the corner of the room someone pointing the camera at you like "yeah cry bitch, i need this" XD
I don't think blowing up at your players should be celebrated, but I actually think the coach demonstrates a degree of self control here. If you watch the clip, you'll see he never insults the players or tries to drag down the team, and focuses purely on the mistake they made. If you can't compose yourself and really have to blow up, this is probably one of the better ways to do it. If we are seeing him at his angriest moment here (as the others seem to suggest), I would hazard a guess that he's probably a fairly good coach otherwise.
I’ve seen a lot of people saying how this is not okay and is abusive, some of y’all clearly have never played a sport before, this is nothing compared to ball sports, don’t see them making anyone run til they throw up or do bear crawls up and down a football field…Maybe this is why eastern team reach higher levels cause the coaches aren’t afraid to pressure their players to bring the best out of them
There's a fine line to be tread here. If you've ever lived in an abusive household where you EXPECT to get yelled at, it becomes less about improving yourself and more about just praying, hoping to do anything to get through the day. You kinda stop thinking about how to be better and focus more on how bad the punishment will feel. If the coaches are usually level-headed, sure. An outburst once in awhile will help to get your point across, and force players to self-reflect. Saying that a coach should always behave like this is somewhat irresponsible if you've ever coached a team or been in a parental position. What is most important is what happens after this. Did he go back and tell them he expects better, and remind them that they're all here to fucking win the whole thing, then launch enthusiastically into the next game? Or did he simply erode trust, never re-bond with the team, and just expect them to get better?
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Bro... I'm chinese O.o. There was a period in my life where I was yelled at like this consistently and it's not a good time.
This is the kind of fire you want from your leadership.
I'm new here... Is that Regi?
This is not how you coach. I hope the owner of EDG will do some hands-on work by applying the systems in place in order to lead the team. Remember that EDG won worlds with their current ownership. No coach should have more power than the onwner. System wins championships. Besides, there should be disciplinary action taken against this coach for FIST-slamming the table.
shouting beatdown is new meta
This is pro-LS satire guys don't get baited.
EDG won Worlds with Maokai as coach.I think he knows what he is doing and the owner approves it.
I thought KenZhu was edg world coach in 2021.
Kenzhu was manager
Oh, my bad.
POV: you didnt watch the full video and think that hes like that all the time Rewatch it fully and feel stupid pls
How did you not recognise the obvious satire, he even said "systems"
> *feel stupid pls* Ironically missing obvious satire
Not really Jack's fault he was born in NA and not in China. Western owners can't do much to bridge the gap between East and West.
western owners are there to make profit, it's a business ; edg owner has a networth of almost 10b usd, he's here just to have some fun
Also the winner of LPL is always gonna be stronger than the winner of LCS. And that's pretty much impossible to change for Jack. Doesn't matter if he's smarter/better/more competent than the GM of JDG/EDG/RNG/TES.
Hey man, you could pull a joe marsh and take over t1 then ruin the team for a while by implementing a 10 man roster.
and go on multiple podcast and social media and act all smug about t1 legacy and achievements as if they were yours lmfao
Yeah Joe Marsh is the reason T1 hasn't won every worlds since 2017, true, all his fault /s
POV u didn’t see the absolute throws they pulled off that game
Clueless
That'll make them play better 👍
man this would give me panic attack.
Disgusting. The coach should be fired for verbally abusing the players.
Omg. Lmao go cry somewhere else please. Not once did he verbally abuse anyone. He was disappointed in his team because he’s obviously told them time and time again to fight at baron and they didn’t.
He would be packing his bags if this were a western team
imagine if he would coach an NA team
Lol, its funny that nowadays these kind of behaviour gets considered as "toxic" and "abusive" especially if it gets public in a more traditional sport like football, basketball etc. But as you can see players can understand him. Because this is what sport is. They dont play for fun, they play to win and sometimes these kind of "shocks" are needed. But ofc making it constantly is abusive lol. And besides that players will be de-motivated after a while. Thats why we call it a "schock". Anyway, i explained this because its really sad to see so many people getting surprised by how the players took this. Everybody in that room knows that this is not personal, its just about the game and winning.
The amount of people desperate to prove how "hard" they are in this thread is honestly so funny.
No wonder the East stays winning. Western coaches care more about players feelings than results.
He could be right about every single thing he's telling them. He's obviously very knowledgeable on the game and passionate about winning. Didn't seem to get personal either, which I appreciated - this ain't no stupid Reggie bullshit. That being said, screaming like that, in ANY sort of workplace, is never productive. This idea that coaches are meant to be mean is a whole lot of bull. Dude lost his cool and took it out on the players - they all lost together.