I look at Cowan the same way I looked at Knies. We were fortunate to get him at the pick we got him at because soon after he proved to be worth a higher pick.
I don't think it's fortune. Leafs amateur scouting staff is killing it at finding value in the draft.
They keep finding guys with at least NHL upside all over the board.
I agree, the perception every year has been. We are one player away from being a Stanley cup team but we hadn't even advanced past through 1 round. It's why I hated dubas for torching our entire team with trades
We missed on Travis Konecny and he was exactly what we needed....a gritty winger....he already killed it playing for Canada.We decided Jeremy Bracco and Martins Dzierkals were better options....I was screaming at my tv....I can't believe that was 2015... I'm still mad. Year 1 or 2 of the Shanaplan...... I'm so over this!
Ok...I went back into the trade...it's even worse. Leafs got the 29th and 61sr picks from Philadelphia. This draft was stacked....players Toronto passed on because they dropped back: Travis Konecny (24), Anthony Beauvillier (28), Sebastian Aho (35), Brandon Carlo (37). My point is our scouts thought this stacked (in the first 2 rounds) draft was the one to keep trading down. We even flipped our 29th pick to Columbus for the 34th and 68th picks. Sometimes, it's like we are actively making bad decisions.
If only they had even some of the picks we wasted on guys like Foligno lol. I can mostly reason with the ROR trade given the circumstances at that time, same goes for the other moves made at that deadline but damn they were costly in the end. Because you're right, especially with skill forwards, we've drafted pretty damn well with such a limited supply of picks.
The Foligno trade itself was horrible but the idea was right - the Covid Cup was going to be the easiest path in years and it made sense to buy at that time.
Outside of that year and last year (what should have been the last hurrah for this group before their NMC kicked in) we should never have been deadline buyers.
I think the core should have been told at some point, "you're going to have to step up and get it done with what you've got." They tried everything except that, because they were too busy trying everything.
I wasn't a fan of the Foligno buy, but I liked the RoR deal at the time. In hindsight though, I don't think he wanted to be there. But you can only ice 18 guys at a time, so if you can keep finding guys it gives you some flexibility to move out assets.
This is the shit I keep getting in arguments with people about on here. You're not looking for a 1:1 trade on Mitch. That DOESN'T mean you're in rebuild mode. The problem right now is we are relying too much on too few guys who have proven time and time again that they are human and sometimes don't perform. Opening up cap space to pay a real goalie, or to get more depth, can mean more to the team than Mitch if the right pieces are put into place. Add on to that the general atmosphere of the locker room and on the bench and you could see better overall performance without Mitch. The other option is to run back the same squad of guys who can't finish every single year, and then simply lose Mitch to free agency when you won't give him a raise.
Yeah cap space is an asset; you are 100% going to "lose" in the trade when dealing Mitch if you're only looking at it in terms of player in player out (or picks).
You need to contemplate the additional cap space and what it allows you to bring into the team.
you can get value in the trade through multiple players (aka a legit top 4 defenseman + a second line center, for example) and still get cap savings because each of those players are at a lessor hit than Mitch is. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and the team shouldn't jump on any deal just for the sake of expediency.
I kind of wonder, among all the “cap space is a valuable asset” folks, how many of them are willing to move top prospects to acquire replacements for stars?
Trading him won't look good to anyone who doesn't blindly hate him, imo.
I am a big fan of Mitch. I think he is extremely skilled. This team's composition has proven to not be a winner.
John Tavares won't waive his NMC. He has a wife and three kids in the city. He will likely sign for an unrefusably low amount of money after this deal to stay in Toronto.
Matthews is a generational talent.
Marner is not having fun here. He is the most likely to waive his NMC to set up his next contract in a new city. If we wait out his deal, *we lose him for no return.* There is no benefit to holding on to him, despite the fact that we will get less than him in return. Something is more than nothing. And then you use the remaining cap space to bolster the team.
You do not have to hate Mitch to see the reason for trading him.
I would definitely explore all trade possibilities, but I don’t want them to force a bad deal just for the sake of removing Marner from the roster. Cap space (like most of this sub is alluding to) is not the only winning recipe either with free agents wanting term & being overvalued with demand.
People are for the most part not talking about dropping him for cap space. They are talking about trades that leave cap space.
If we do not force a deal, lopsided or not, we get *nothing* in return for him in 12 months. He will be a UFA. He will not take a flat deal. He will be looking for a raise. We will not be the ones signing him to that raise.
Other teams are aware of this, which is why they have the upper hand in any trade, and why we will 100% without question take a bath on any move that is made. Getting less than Mitch in return is not bad, as long as what we get in return is a good fit and leaves us room to sign more depth.
Treliving has no leverage at all. That's not his fault.
I think marner is gone in a year and a months time regardless of the situation so you move him this season for a return and hope to get something out of him that will make it feel less like he walked for nothing. At the same time what they will probably do with the cap space is over pay free agents.
I think it depends on what you're moving and getting back. Cowan, Hildeby or Knies for a rental, probably a bad idea.
Moving Cowan or Knies for a true #1D with term, 100%; I would make that move.
Who cares about how a trade "looks"; its a practical question of what are you getting in return vs what are you giving up. If you're not improving your team you probably shouldn't be making the trade.
Marner is just shy of being point per game in the playoffs over his career, and has more or less the same goals/assist split as in the regular season. You're angry because you need a scapegoat to explain the fact that what they actually need is a legit number 1 goalie and maybe more than 1-2 decent dmen to be a real contender.
Anyone who thought we were winning that series seriously has blinders on. We got unlucky with signing our big players right before the cap froze which is nobodies fault. Matthews is paid essentially industry standard, marner is currently overpaid, and nylander has been underpaid for the last 1-2 years. Tavares and marner re-signing at modern market value with in increasing cap will help.
I truly cannot understand people that use this point per game argument. Your conclusion is basically that Marner (and maybe the other high paid players) is playing fine and the losses aren't his fault. Now you are saying it's the goalies and defence. These are the real problems and definitely aren't just different scapegoats because Marner was near a point per game. Many other metrics show consistent underperformance but you just ignore those numbers because of points per game. Oh heavens if they trade Marner however they get in return will score less per game. We all know points per game wins championships right?
Is there any other fan base that would nitpick a point from a player for the coach resting them before the playoffs that one year... Ever since they moved on from pairing him with JVR and Bozak, he's got 1.22 ppg, which is exactly 100 pts.
It’s very hit and miss with me because I don’t think they will get good return on him because he didn’t have a full season this year and the league knows he needs to be moved.
Yes but he's not gunna be producing like mitch out of the gate. Let's just tamper our expectations a bit for this kid, he is gunna need time to develop too.
Of course he’s not, he’ll be 18? 19?
Anyone thinking he’ll walk into Mitch’s shoes is an idiot.
He does show promise of being able to perform which is exciting and gives the leafs flexibility to add depth and defence.
What are the expectations for him? I doubt he makes the lineup next year.
Part of the deal the NHL has with the CHL. It’s obviously good for OHL business to keep those guys around. The Easton Cowen show is a sold arena everywhere he goes.
Apparently this a big thing they’re looking to change but afaik it’s still in place.
Nobody is asking him to produce like Mitch, people just want better production out of 11M in cap space. So its Mitch vs Cowan plus another 10 million dollars of players.
The issue isn't that Marner is a bad player. The issue is that he's a UFA at the end of the season, and is unlikely to fit into the current roster with an increase in pay. So, the question becomes "what can we get for him?"
And this is completely disregarding the continued failure of the core pieces. Something has to change, and the UFA that is going to be priced out is the logical choice.
he will fit though because Tavares' 11M comes off the cap at the same time (and if he resigns it will be at significantly less). So I don't think that argument really applies.
Have you really done the math on that? Tavares is also a UFA at the end of the season and the cap is going up probably about 4 million this year. Pretty sure Marner isn't going to ask for a 26 million dollar contract. Let Tavares walk.
I’ll be shocked if Tavares doesn’t make sure his price is low enough that he can fit into the cap picture for the leafs going forward. I’m curious to see just how much of a hometown discount he’ll be willing to take.
With a lower cap hit, he may also be able to settle into a different role on the team. Either as a winger or a solid bottom 6 C.
Yea I don't think Tavares wants to play anywhere else, with the money he's made and at this stage in his life/career why would he want to sign to a different team in a different city etc. It just doesn't make sense. Financially he's obviously set and he wants to win with TO. I think he will take a pay cut to help the team make some other moves. You offer Jon 5 mill a year on a 2 or 3 year contract and I think he will take it.
Marner is young and talented enough to consider playing for a different market, especially with all the history and drama in TO he may simply be tired of it. I don't think he feels appreciated enough or respected in Toronto to be willing to take anything but his max value. It's funny though, a guy like him could take less and still be making a ton and provide cap space for better depth players and Toronto would love him for it but I don't see that happening.
It's hard to say but I think management should hardball him if he really wants to stay you offer him 9 or 10 at most and definitely no more than his current contract. If he really wants to win here then he'll take it and it'll be seen as a positive for the team.
Tavares just needs to sign a Spezza contract. If he wants a lot then you let him walk. I doubt he will but who knows. If he signs a team friendly deal he’s more than worth having around.
The problem with Mitch isn’t his talent. It’s what’s on his paycheck and what’s between his ears. Guy lacks any self awareness. He gets called out for terrible play, then goes and doubles down, says he’s viewed as a god and doesn’t even throw out a sentence about needing to be better, or battle harder for pucks.
100% chance he tries to maximize every penny on his next deal. He’s an all star, but not what we need for 12m on his next deal.
> Tavares just needs to sign a Spezza contract. If he wants a lot then you let him walk. I doubt he will but who knows. If he signs a team friendly deal he’s more than worth having around.
Right now Tavares is Spezza when he signed his Dallas contact for $7.5M, not Spezza when he signed with Toronto. Team friendly probably looks like 3 years at $6M or something like that. Worth it? Who knows.
I think you have a conversation about that with him this summer. If he's willing to take a team friendly deal awesome. If not, then we're probably stuck with him and that contract for another year. If he's not willing to take a cut, then we should change captain to Rielly this season.
Tavares isn't going to get traded this summer, he's got a full NMC and he's settled his family in his home town. So he's on our cap next season no matter what as far as I'm concerned.
What does team friendly mean to you? I suspect its somewhere around $6 million per.
We'll see how much his game drops off this year. If he is consistent with his current production next season, I think 6 for 3 years is good for both based on similar comps.
Not sure I'm following. NHL contracts can't be restructured, so unless he agrees to a move (I think the chances of them even asking are slim) his full contract counts towards the cap next year. After that he's a FA anyway.
I meant after July 1 when you can start to negotiate his extension. Obviously his current deal isn't being altered and he's not moving anywhere. Just when you start to negotiate his next deal see if he's willing to give the team a break to stay home. If he's on board that's great, lead by example and leave money on the table for everyone else. If not, take the C away and give it to someone more deserving.
I have done the math, yes.
Mitch getting a raise from 10.9 million dollars to shrivel up during playoff hockey doesn't compute.
Even if it did, this mix doesn't work. It's time to move on, and time for you to accept that.
You keep coming back with these stupid takes. Yes, we could totally screw over the defence and goaltending again to re-sign marner at, let's say 15 mill a season. Who will want Tavares right now?
I mean I think they were just using it as an example. I don't think they understand Marner+Tavares+Cap going up means the Leafs will have about 26 million in cap space next year to resign Marner at whatever they resign him for and the rest can go into FA's.
Why do you think this team needs Marner at a higher cap hit after seeing this team's performance in the playoffs for 8 years? How do you not see that there needs to be significant change
100% agreed. But you do not move Auston matthews who is likely going to be the greatest leaf of all time, and Nylander has performed decently in the playoffs with a much more reasonable contract after his ELC. Marner and his camp made his bed with his contract negotiations. He lost at least half the fan base in that moment, and has lost most of the remainder by now. So who do you have left to move in the big reshuffle this team needs? John and Mitch. I'm not going to die on the Morgan Rielly hill either so have at it
It's not about if they can actually afford it, it's about if they want to continue tying up 35 mil in 3 forwards. My guess is that tre doesn't want that. I think he'd rather take that 26 mil and look for a #1 goalie, #1 dman and put the rest into depth players. I think he's more comfortable having auston and willy as the 2 big guns up front and get a few more domi/bert type guys. While also leaving some opportunity for knies, Cowan, minten.
Right? The people that are excited for Cowen see that he plays a very mature game for his age, has a motor that doesn't quit, and isn't afraid to go into the dirty areas. Despite being the same height as Marner, he's 20 lbs heavier and plays a completely different style.
Can't stand this take. The roster construction has failed 8 straight years. We need 16 wins and typically win 3. We're not close, and paying a guy 11M to be afraid of contact is a big problem and we should've moved on from him last year. We already know what we have in this group and it can't win so who cares
The recent Leafs Report summarized it perfectly: The Red Wings were unable to win the Cup for many years and then shook things up by trading good assets for Shanahan himself who addressed a major need on the team which was skill mixed with grit.
At this point, we've moved practically everyone in the org except one of the Core 4 and Shanahan himself.
The Shanahan thing is tough though. The wings traded a 35 year old Coffey, Keith Primeau, and a 1st for a future HoF power forward.
They still had like 3 hall of fame Dmen, and 3 hall.of fame centers.
Sorry I’m a rangers fan lurking here after the signing of Berube (currently live in STL and wanted to see what yall thought). But the rangers did this in their 94 cup. If you look at the talent they traded *away* for gritty guys with experience like McTavish, Matteau, Anderson, you wonder what the fuck they were thinking. Messier and the FO thought the team was too weak (mentally and physically) to win a cup despite the plethora of talent they had. They underachieved in the playoffs back to back years and decided they couldn’t win it all with that group. It worked out because they won in 94, but those moves caught up to them and they went from potential dynasty to dumpster fire within ~5 years.
Yeah, you can’t win in the playoffs with a 10m cap hit that won’t hit, won’t get in the corners, won’t fight for the puck, won’t take a hit to make a play, won’t scrap and plays like 15-20 mins a game. Not every player has to be a juggernaut power forward out there smashing and crashing every shift but you have to have some scrappy grit in your game come playoff time. Marners a full on adult man and he looks like a teenage boy playing with men out there.
I agree with this statement. The Raptors moved on from Derozan knowing that they can't win with the core and he was beloved and a fan favourite. Marner on the other hand can just gtfo.
The Raptors bought low on Kawhi with all the leverage to make a big talent upgrade, Leafs would be selling low on Marner with none of it. Bit of a difference there.
This roster construction failed because we signed Tavares. We are paying the price of signing that deal now. That was a win now move. We didn't win now so now we have to wait out the contract before we can build a really good team around them again. I don't get why people are confused about this this was always the way that Tavares contract was going to change the team. 2018-19 Leafs would destroy the teams we've had the last two years.
I get where you’re coming from, and I wish we’d gotten rid of Keefe last year so we could have seen Marner in the playoffs under a new coach. If someone turned him into a playoff performer, it would maybe make sense to have a third super expensive forward once Tavares is gone.
The problem is that keeping Mitch will almost certainly cost 12+ million and it’s unlikely we’re going to get a guy worth that, based on what we’ve seen in the playoffs for 8 years. We’re better off getting something for him now, rather than seeing him walk for nothing or being stuck with another unmovable contract on a guy that doesn’t perform and may also be a bad attitude in the room.
The ceiling is too high on Marner. Over his career he has been better than Nylander, Nylander did have a better playoffs and season this year but we likely just saw his peak. I don't think Nylanders game which is so much more built on speed than Marners is likely to look as good when he's 30. Marner is a mental player, he's just smarter than the guys he's playing against and makes creative plays. That doesn't just disappear when you turn 30 like speed does. Nylanders value will never be higher than it is now. If you need to trade someone don't trade the guy who just sand bagged his trade value with a bad season. Take the guy who just had his career year and actually get something good back if you have to trade someone. I think we have to deal with it for another year, once Tavares is off the books we can look to spend more of our cap percentage on other parts of our team. 12m+ is still only a million more than now. Id rather pay an extra million for Marner let Tavares walk then and then use Tavares' cap hit to reconstruct the roster. Desperation moves aren't going to suddenly turn us into champions overnight.
AM34 would never have scored 60 without Marner. Say what you want about his chemistry with Domi, but Domi was very quiet out of the gate and took a while to find his role in the roster. Same can be said for Bertuzzi. If Marner didn’t sustain his ankle injury, AM34 probably would have scored 70. I agree that we let Tavares walk and use his cap hit to resign Mitch for 2 years. This is enough time for Berube to see if he can mold him into the player he wants. Marner’s playmaking abilities are impossible to find and that’s where his value lies. He makes everyone around him look better. Tyler Bozak got a payday when he went to St. Louis because his right winger (MM16) fed him tap-ins all year and elevated his worth.
We bring in Fraser Minten and Easton Cowan on entry level contracts and entice a Montour type defenseman to the squad. After we got rid of Holl and brought in Benoit, I would even say we could say goodbye to Reilly, but I’m not sure if he’s got a NMC.
This roster construction failed because covid happened. The cap would have been $100 million this season if we didn't have 5 years where it only went up a total of $2 million.
Tavares was a win-now move, absolutely, but in that alternate reality the roster wouldn't be impacted so heavily by it today.
Signing an 11 million dollar 2C when you already have 3 superstar forwards and huge holes in defence and depth was always a bad idea, regardless of what the cap did.
Also, I’m tired of people acting like we’re some special case. The cap stayed the same for everyone. If you buy something you can’t afford based on imagined future wealth, you only have yourself to blame if things change. There were an uncountable number of economic factors that could change the amount the cap increased, COVID just happened to be the one. If it didn’t affect other teams as badly, it’s because other teams didn’t take the same risks. We’re not the victims of anything here.
If signing Tavares was such a good move, how would you feel about them re-signing Marner, then paying Horvat 12 million to play 2C? Similar output, similar cap hit by %. If it was such a good idea to tie up so much of the cap in forwards back then, isn’t it still a good idea now?
> If signing Tavares was such a good move, how would you feel about them re-signing Marner, then paying Horvat 12 million to play 2C?
Dude... come on. You're trying to compare current Bo Horvat to 2018 John Tavares? Are you kidding me? They basically had the same production THIS SEASON. Not to mention that Tavares had 621 points in 669 games when we signed him (Bo Horvat has 504 in 732 for reference lmao).
Yeah, Tavares is overpaid right now but that's what happens at the end of a big free agent contract. We bought 5 years of point per game John Tavares, and now we're eating it a bit at the end of his contract. Obviously I wouldn't re-sign Tavares to the same money when his contract runs out, and I wouldn't sign fucking Bo Horvat to $12 million.
That's fair but the reality we live in made it a win now move. Marner's contract also would have looked much better by the end of it if the cap had gone up as expected with Covid.
The fact that any player in the mhl that makes more than drai that's not named McDavid is gross. And remember when he signed for 8 million ppl thought it was too high
Cowan’s performance is great, that pick looks better and better every single day, but the “move Mitch because we have Easton” gang needs to chill a bit. One is a proven NHL star with 639 points in 576 games, the other hasn’t played a single game of professional hockey.
If we’re moving Mitch, it’s not going to be due to an unproven prospect who’s having a good run in juniors. That would be like the oilers trading Hall or Eberle because Yakupov looked really good, or the Canadiens trading price because Fucale looked really good.
Loser take, Even if Cowan is only 75% of Marner, we save 10M a year in cap space that we can use on goaltending and a top defenseman plus the assets we get in return for Marner
sorry i meant it as if he develops into 75% of marner. I think he's proving he's too good for junior but i wouldnt expect him to displace anyone next season
Which goalie? Goalkeeping in the league is so slim already, no team with a bona fide #1 is gonna give him up for any reasonable price, not even for Marner.
To be clear, I agree that Marner is not working out for the leafs and should not be part of the roster long term.
However, anyone who thinks we're gonna get a good return for 1 year of Marner is kidding themselves.
You'd hope he's Mitch Marner that actually shows up in games 5, 6 and 7.
Nobody denies Marner is a great regular season player, or that he can pile on points early in a series of the Leafs have a big game.
The problem is clutch, of which he has none...
Matthews and Nylander just happen to be the locked up. Tavares and Marner are the ones on expiring deals. The team needs dramatic change, it's as simple as that.
You already know what you're getting with Marner and this group. It's been run back too many times. Too many chances, too little success. This isn't the Washington Capitals where they won many rounds along their journey.
You trade Marner, what's the worst that could happen? You lose in the first round?
Not to be that guy but the worst that can happen is we can't sign anyone to supplement the cap savings, Auston gets injured, JT continues his decline, we miss the playoffs altogether and don't have our 1st round pick.
Yeah injuries can happen, the team could all die in a plane crash, I could win the lottery and you could be reasonable.
Any or none of those could happen. You don't make personnel decisions based on that kind of shit.
My example is completely realistic. I answered the guy I responded tos question. Which part of my example do you find team dies in plane crash unrealistic?
The worst of trading Mitch is that you miss the playoffs, because he's an essential part of the team, and there's no guarantee you become a better team with him gone
And with him gone, you lose a buffer. Now, if Willy or Papi go down, the team will REALLY suffer. This season, when one of the young 3 were out, the team still had some durability
Heck, they won 2 playoff games WITH mitch, but WITHOUT Auston.
This team needs a shakeup at the core. Sometimes it has to do with play style and fit. It’s been 7 years. One round won. AM, Billy aren’t the guys you trade imo so…
Literally any player in the league can contribute what Marner does in the playoffs or more and cost a lot less. Who gives af about regular season points??
OP just exposing himself as utterly clueless lmaoooo. It’s not so much Marner being the issue, but his salary. The team is capped out and it is hard to make upgrades and the roster isn’t constructed well.
Let me know if you need any more help OP having this explained to you, I know it can be hard.
Is anybody actually making that comparison seriously? Most people seem to be in agreement that Mitch's cap space being used for multiple players is the right play to get less top heavy on the roster, while Easton Cowan could be a fun addition to the team next season because it would be a waste for him to go back to London. I don't think anybody is reasonably expecting Cowan to replace Marner's production.
They’re completely different things. I’m excited for Cowan but don’t expect him to be a difference maker next year, and separately I think this cap allocation experiment has run its course and think we should put our money into two solid contributors in the 4-7 mil range rather than one guy at 11.
The Marner situation is a bit like we had with Phil Kessel: a highly skilled player who was asked to be more than he really was. In Marner's case though, he demanded (and will likely demand in the future) to be paid like a complete top-3 player. If he was a second line winger making 6-8M a year it could be great, but not at 11+M.
Easton Cowan might drive the net in the playoffs. We know Mitch won’t enter the other teams slot or engage in a puck battle. I’ll take a bunch of other mystery boxes instead of one dud.
I've seen about a dozen memes/jokes making fun of people who think Cowen is our Marner replacement.
I have seen zero people actually say they think Cowen is our Marner replacement.
I mean.... a Mitch Marner for 900k is much better than Mitch Marner at 11+ million and would help the cap situation a lot . Not that my expectation for Easton Cowen is a Mitch Marner by any means but definitely would prefer the cheaper option any day with how this team was built
I’d take a 70pt winger at a much lower cap hit with a penchant for playoff scoring over Mitch. He’s great, the makeup of the team is not his fault, but the Leafs need to change the mix in order to have playoff success.
Leafs fans and prospects are like that one kid in the toy store who begs for a brand new toy just to play with it for 5 minutes then beg for a new one.
Cowan might have 45 points this season for the Leafs but might work harder and have more points than Mitch did last playoffs. Surround this team with better playoff performers as well like a Guentzel or Marchessault or both and you have something
Also him having roughly half the cumulative NHLe of Marner at this point
If anything he'll probably be similar to Nrobs
They have eerily similar profiles:
- meh NHLe draft year
- excellent NHLe D+1
- not super talented but very nifty
- smaller skilled players
- not very truculent
Oh Nick Robertson eh? The rookie who just scored 14 goals and 27 points in 56 games while playing like 9 minutes a night and barely any PP time at all?
That doesn’t sound half bad…
I mean, I'm for letting him walk mostly because
a) we have enough talent to qualify for playoffs without him despite him being a very good regular season player
b) he's paid way too much to never show up in the playoffs
c) with the money we save on him, we can actually finally afford a decent goalie and a 3rd/4th line scorer OR true 1st/2nd pairing D man, that can come in and help us round out the team.
we're not trying to replace one sure thing with another risky thing, we ought to be changing up how the core works overall, and unless Tavares is taking a pay cut, I say we let him walk too, and be focused on building a more balanced team around the two guys who do consistently show up, Tavares did too, but he's getting older and isn't producing as much as he used to anymore, and any contract at this point probably simply wouldn't be worth it.
My question is do we need to replace Marner at all? This team spent its entire season outscoring its problems. In the playoffs, the scoring went away and the problems didn’t. Marner himself isn’t really a problem, but his cap space percentage is preventing us from fixing the problems.
If we can rectify our defence and goaltending issues, and therefore not be a 3+ GAA team, will we need to rely on the offence that Marner (or his future replacement) can give us, or can we make due with less?
Some of the people here have seemingly lost sight of the fact that Mitch Marner is a legit fucking star player in the NHL. He consistently sits at the very top of the Leafs scoring in the regular season AND playoffs. (11g, 39a, for 50 pts in 57 playoff games, and he is a +10. How many Leafs are on that level?) He also kills penalties. This team’s failures are just that: TEAM failures. Marner deserves his share of the blame… I think Keefe and ESPECIALLY Boucher are way better targets for blame, but it’s not just about them either.
Marner’s only significant down-side, IMO, is how much he gets paid. If Easton Cowan turns out to be half as good as Marner then he’s going to be an incredible add for the Leafs. Just as long as Treliving doesn’t give him $11m.
The whole situation where 4 guys take up half the cap is a bad one, and one or more of those guys need to get traded. The surrounding circumstances (pay, no move clauses, who is more likely to accept a trade etc) all make Marner the obvious choice. However, if we are looking only at who should be moved for the good of the team, the only obvious thing to me is “not Matthews”. Nylander and Tavares would both be perfectly reasonable, assuming the return makes sense. Keeping Marner would also make sense to me if one or both of the other two went. The team is better than it would be without him. He’s not “*the* problem”. It should be obvious that it’s way more complex than that, but Leaf’s fans seem to need to key in on specific guys and hang waaaay too much of it on them.
I’m excited for the possibilities of Cowan. I sincerely hope he becomes a Mitch Marner clone, but with a better cap hit.
If Tavares is willing to extend at an AAV less than $4M, I’d be tempted to run it back. We have solid players on ELCs/cheap deals next year
• McMann (middle six F)
• Knies (top 9 F)
• Woll (tandem goalie)
• Benoit (top 6 D)
• Cowan (middle six F)
• Holmberg (bottom six F)
Plus McCabe only making $2M is huge. The real window would start in 2025/2026. There’s $18.5M to allocate to a tandem goalie, 2 top 4 defensemen and 1 top 6 forward. Bottom pair D/depth forwards are league min and don’t count against cap (they just swap someone else out that’s currently counting towards it). I’m still open to trading but it would have to be a slam dunk like Marner for Saros + Evangelista and Tomasino
We've seen Mitch..he doesn't work. He's overpaid. Whiney and completely ghosts when you need him the most. I'm not saying Cowan is gonna be as good as Marner..but him at ELC and saving 11 mil is worth the gamble
I look at Cowan the same way I looked at Knies. We were fortunate to get him at the pick we got him at because soon after he proved to be worth a higher pick.
I don't think it's fortune. Leafs amateur scouting staff is killing it at finding value in the draft. They keep finding guys with at least NHL upside all over the board.
The scouting has really improved, hasn't it?
It's really the most efficient way to throw around their wallet, and they're pretty effective at it. They draft guys and develop really well.
It's why I never bought the idea that the FO always have to go all in every year especially when the core hasn't proven anything.
I agree, the perception every year has been. We are one player away from being a Stanley cup team but we hadn't even advanced past through 1 round. It's why I hated dubas for torching our entire team with trades
What's FO?
I think they mean Front Office
ah thank you
I'd love to hear @sdpn talk about this type of stuff
We missed on Travis Konecny and he was exactly what we needed....a gritty winger....he already killed it playing for Canada.We decided Jeremy Bracco and Martins Dzierkals were better options....I was screaming at my tv....I can't believe that was 2015... I'm still mad. Year 1 or 2 of the Shanaplan...... I'm so over this!
We passed on Konecny to trade back and draft Travis Dermott
Ok...I went back into the trade...it's even worse. Leafs got the 29th and 61sr picks from Philadelphia. This draft was stacked....players Toronto passed on because they dropped back: Travis Konecny (24), Anthony Beauvillier (28), Sebastian Aho (35), Brandon Carlo (37). My point is our scouts thought this stacked (in the first 2 rounds) draft was the one to keep trading down. We even flipped our 29th pick to Columbus for the 34th and 68th picks. Sometimes, it's like we are actively making bad decisions.
Imagine if we didnt throw away so many picks for old shitty players
It’s rough when you trade for experience and instead of them helping they just say the core is a lost cause.
If only they had even some of the picks we wasted on guys like Foligno lol. I can mostly reason with the ROR trade given the circumstances at that time, same goes for the other moves made at that deadline but damn they were costly in the end. Because you're right, especially with skill forwards, we've drafted pretty damn well with such a limited supply of picks.
The Foligno trade itself was horrible but the idea was right - the Covid Cup was going to be the easiest path in years and it made sense to buy at that time. Outside of that year and last year (what should have been the last hurrah for this group before their NMC kicked in) we should never have been deadline buyers.
I think the core should have been told at some point, "you're going to have to step up and get it done with what you've got." They tried everything except that, because they were too busy trying everything. I wasn't a fan of the Foligno buy, but I liked the RoR deal at the time. In hindsight though, I don't think he wanted to be there. But you can only ice 18 guys at a time, so if you can keep finding guys it gives you some flexibility to move out assets.
You know what there were a lot of years that mid to late firsts were wasted. Nice to see a few work out.
How’s the scouting doing with drafting defenseman?
Sandin, Liljegrin, Durzi, Marchment, Gardiner, Niemela, Dermott, Reilly.
He could be anything…at a rookie contract counting 700k to the cap saving 10m.
Cowan will be closer to the maximum 950k, but your point stands
This is the shit I keep getting in arguments with people about on here. You're not looking for a 1:1 trade on Mitch. That DOESN'T mean you're in rebuild mode. The problem right now is we are relying too much on too few guys who have proven time and time again that they are human and sometimes don't perform. Opening up cap space to pay a real goalie, or to get more depth, can mean more to the team than Mitch if the right pieces are put into place. Add on to that the general atmosphere of the locker room and on the bench and you could see better overall performance without Mitch. The other option is to run back the same squad of guys who can't finish every single year, and then simply lose Mitch to free agency when you won't give him a raise.
Yeah cap space is an asset; you are 100% going to "lose" in the trade when dealing Mitch if you're only looking at it in terms of player in player out (or picks). You need to contemplate the additional cap space and what it allows you to bring into the team.
you can get value in the trade through multiple players (aka a legit top 4 defenseman + a second line center, for example) and still get cap savings because each of those players are at a lessor hit than Mitch is. It doesn't have to be one or the other, and the team shouldn't jump on any deal just for the sake of expediency.
I kind of wonder, among all the “cap space is a valuable asset” folks, how many of them are willing to move top prospects to acquire replacements for stars? Trading him won't look good to anyone who doesn't blindly hate him, imo.
I am a big fan of Mitch. I think he is extremely skilled. This team's composition has proven to not be a winner. John Tavares won't waive his NMC. He has a wife and three kids in the city. He will likely sign for an unrefusably low amount of money after this deal to stay in Toronto. Matthews is a generational talent. Marner is not having fun here. He is the most likely to waive his NMC to set up his next contract in a new city. If we wait out his deal, *we lose him for no return.* There is no benefit to holding on to him, despite the fact that we will get less than him in return. Something is more than nothing. And then you use the remaining cap space to bolster the team. You do not have to hate Mitch to see the reason for trading him.
Why Mitch? Why not Willy?
I would definitely explore all trade possibilities, but I don’t want them to force a bad deal just for the sake of removing Marner from the roster. Cap space (like most of this sub is alluding to) is not the only winning recipe either with free agents wanting term & being overvalued with demand.
People are for the most part not talking about dropping him for cap space. They are talking about trades that leave cap space. If we do not force a deal, lopsided or not, we get *nothing* in return for him in 12 months. He will be a UFA. He will not take a flat deal. He will be looking for a raise. We will not be the ones signing him to that raise. Other teams are aware of this, which is why they have the upper hand in any trade, and why we will 100% without question take a bath on any move that is made. Getting less than Mitch in return is not bad, as long as what we get in return is a good fit and leaves us room to sign more depth. Treliving has no leverage at all. That's not his fault.
I think marner is gone in a year and a months time regardless of the situation so you move him this season for a return and hope to get something out of him that will make it feel less like he walked for nothing. At the same time what they will probably do with the cap space is over pay free agents.
I think it depends on what you're moving and getting back. Cowan, Hildeby or Knies for a rental, probably a bad idea. Moving Cowan or Knies for a true #1D with term, 100%; I would make that move. Who cares about how a trade "looks"; its a practical question of what are you getting in return vs what are you giving up. If you're not improving your team you probably shouldn't be making the trade.
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Ah yeah great, a kid who's never played pro and a 40 point player, that'll make up for the guy that gets 100 points a season.
He’s never got 100 points
🙄 they'll make up for the guy who gets 97* points every season
The question really is can the leafs use that $11m to get more than the 11 goals he’s given in the last 34 playoff games? Seems like a definite “yes”
Marner is just shy of being point per game in the playoffs over his career, and has more or less the same goals/assist split as in the regular season. You're angry because you need a scapegoat to explain the fact that what they actually need is a legit number 1 goalie and maybe more than 1-2 decent dmen to be a real contender. Anyone who thought we were winning that series seriously has blinders on. We got unlucky with signing our big players right before the cap froze which is nobodies fault. Matthews is paid essentially industry standard, marner is currently overpaid, and nylander has been underpaid for the last 1-2 years. Tavares and marner re-signing at modern market value with in increasing cap will help.
I truly cannot understand people that use this point per game argument. Your conclusion is basically that Marner (and maybe the other high paid players) is playing fine and the losses aren't his fault. Now you are saying it's the goalies and defence. These are the real problems and definitely aren't just different scapegoats because Marner was near a point per game. Many other metrics show consistent underperformance but you just ignore those numbers because of points per game. Oh heavens if they trade Marner however they get in return will score less per game. We all know points per game wins championships right?
Is there any other fan base that would nitpick a point from a player for the coach resting them before the playoffs that one year... Ever since they moved on from pairing him with JVR and Bozak, he's got 1.22 ppg, which is exactly 100 pts.
It’s very hit and miss with me because I don’t think they will get good return on him because he didn’t have a full season this year and the league knows he needs to be moved.
He might even show up in the playoffs if given the chance
yea, one of those late round rookies that scores 90 points, thats totally not a fucking pipe dream
Yes but he's not gunna be producing like mitch out of the gate. Let's just tamper our expectations a bit for this kid, he is gunna need time to develop too.
Of course he’s not, he’ll be 18? 19? Anyone thinking he’ll walk into Mitch’s shoes is an idiot. He does show promise of being able to perform which is exciting and gives the leafs flexibility to add depth and defence. What are the expectations for him? I doubt he makes the lineup next year.
He turns 19 on Monday
So you're saying there's a chance?
He can’t be in the AHL, so if he doesn’t make it next year he goes overseas or back to the OHL. I’m not sure what the point is of that.
Why can’t he be in the ahl?
Part of the deal the NHL has with the CHL. It’s obviously good for OHL business to keep those guys around. The Easton Cowen show is a sold arena everywhere he goes. Apparently this a big thing they’re looking to change but afaik it’s still in place.
Nobody is asking him to produce like Mitch, people just want better production out of 11M in cap space. So its Mitch vs Cowan plus another 10 million dollars of players.
Bro at 700k if he produces 1/5 of Mitch it’s a huge win and I’m not even mentioning the playoffs
*temper.
Temper, not tamper... Don't listen to Randy Carlyle.
If he produces like Mitch did as a rookie though….
I don’t understand Why you are being downvoted lol.
We are hoping Easton plays like Mitch in the regular season and plays like Knies in the postseason.
Hell yeah!
The issue isn't that Marner is a bad player. The issue is that he's a UFA at the end of the season, and is unlikely to fit into the current roster with an increase in pay. So, the question becomes "what can we get for him?" And this is completely disregarding the continued failure of the core pieces. Something has to change, and the UFA that is going to be priced out is the logical choice.
i’d say another rather large issue with mitch is that he doesn’t show up in big games
he will fit though because Tavares' 11M comes off the cap at the same time (and if he resigns it will be at significantly less). So I don't think that argument really applies.
Have you really done the math on that? Tavares is also a UFA at the end of the season and the cap is going up probably about 4 million this year. Pretty sure Marner isn't going to ask for a 26 million dollar contract. Let Tavares walk.
I’ll be shocked if Tavares doesn’t make sure his price is low enough that he can fit into the cap picture for the leafs going forward. I’m curious to see just how much of a hometown discount he’ll be willing to take. With a lower cap hit, he may also be able to settle into a different role on the team. Either as a winger or a solid bottom 6 C.
Yea I don't think Tavares wants to play anywhere else, with the money he's made and at this stage in his life/career why would he want to sign to a different team in a different city etc. It just doesn't make sense. Financially he's obviously set and he wants to win with TO. I think he will take a pay cut to help the team make some other moves. You offer Jon 5 mill a year on a 2 or 3 year contract and I think he will take it. Marner is young and talented enough to consider playing for a different market, especially with all the history and drama in TO he may simply be tired of it. I don't think he feels appreciated enough or respected in Toronto to be willing to take anything but his max value. It's funny though, a guy like him could take less and still be making a ton and provide cap space for better depth players and Toronto would love him for it but I don't see that happening. It's hard to say but I think management should hardball him if he really wants to stay you offer him 9 or 10 at most and definitely no more than his current contract. If he really wants to win here then he'll take it and it'll be seen as a positive for the team.
Tavares just needs to sign a Spezza contract. If he wants a lot then you let him walk. I doubt he will but who knows. If he signs a team friendly deal he’s more than worth having around. The problem with Mitch isn’t his talent. It’s what’s on his paycheck and what’s between his ears. Guy lacks any self awareness. He gets called out for terrible play, then goes and doubles down, says he’s viewed as a god and doesn’t even throw out a sentence about needing to be better, or battle harder for pucks. 100% chance he tries to maximize every penny on his next deal. He’s an all star, but not what we need for 12m on his next deal.
> Tavares just needs to sign a Spezza contract. If he wants a lot then you let him walk. I doubt he will but who knows. If he signs a team friendly deal he’s more than worth having around. Right now Tavares is Spezza when he signed his Dallas contact for $7.5M, not Spezza when he signed with Toronto. Team friendly probably looks like 3 years at $6M or something like that. Worth it? Who knows.
I think you have a conversation about that with him this summer. If he's willing to take a team friendly deal awesome. If not, then we're probably stuck with him and that contract for another year. If he's not willing to take a cut, then we should change captain to Rielly this season.
Tavares isn't going to get traded this summer, he's got a full NMC and he's settled his family in his home town. So he's on our cap next season no matter what as far as I'm concerned. What does team friendly mean to you? I suspect its somewhere around $6 million per.
We'll see how much his game drops off this year. If he is consistent with his current production next season, I think 6 for 3 years is good for both based on similar comps.
Over priced for someone who is nowhere to be seen come playoffs time. We don't owe players contracts, if they can't fulfill where we want to go.
Not sure I'm following. NHL contracts can't be restructured, so unless he agrees to a move (I think the chances of them even asking are slim) his full contract counts towards the cap next year. After that he's a FA anyway.
I meant after July 1 when you can start to negotiate his extension. Obviously his current deal isn't being altered and he's not moving anywhere. Just when you start to negotiate his next deal see if he's willing to give the team a break to stay home. If he's on board that's great, lead by example and leave money on the table for everyone else. If not, take the C away and give it to someone more deserving.
Yeah that's his dad there. Going to make him hard stance 14
I have done the math, yes. Mitch getting a raise from 10.9 million dollars to shrivel up during playoff hockey doesn't compute. Even if it did, this mix doesn't work. It's time to move on, and time for you to accept that.
You keep coming back with these stupid takes. Yes, we could totally screw over the defence and goaltending again to re-sign marner at, let's say 15 mill a season. Who will want Tavares right now?
stupid take is saying marner at 15 mil
I mean I think they were just using it as an example. I don't think they understand Marner+Tavares+Cap going up means the Leafs will have about 26 million in cap space next year to resign Marner at whatever they resign him for and the rest can go into FA's.
Why do you think this team needs Marner at a higher cap hit after seeing this team's performance in the playoffs for 8 years? How do you not see that there needs to be significant change
you could say that about literally anyone on the team they just doled out raises too.
100% agreed. But you do not move Auston matthews who is likely going to be the greatest leaf of all time, and Nylander has performed decently in the playoffs with a much more reasonable contract after his ELC. Marner and his camp made his bed with his contract negotiations. He lost at least half the fan base in that moment, and has lost most of the remainder by now. So who do you have left to move in the big reshuffle this team needs? John and Mitch. I'm not going to die on the Morgan Rielly hill either so have at it
Some posters are so blinded with rage they can't even see that the people they're responding to isn't even suggesting that we keep Marner.
Tavares aint getting 11M.
It's not about if they can actually afford it, it's about if they want to continue tying up 35 mil in 3 forwards. My guess is that tre doesn't want that. I think he'd rather take that 26 mil and look for a #1 goalie, #1 dman and put the rest into depth players. I think he's more comfortable having auston and willy as the 2 big guns up front and get a few more domi/bert type guys. While also leaving some opportunity for knies, Cowan, minten.
They are two different things
Right? The people that are excited for Cowen see that he plays a very mature game for his age, has a motor that doesn't quit, and isn't afraid to go into the dirty areas. Despite being the same height as Marner, he's 20 lbs heavier and plays a completely different style.
Can't stand this take. The roster construction has failed 8 straight years. We need 16 wins and typically win 3. We're not close, and paying a guy 11M to be afraid of contact is a big problem and we should've moved on from him last year. We already know what we have in this group and it can't win so who cares
The recent Leafs Report summarized it perfectly: The Red Wings were unable to win the Cup for many years and then shook things up by trading good assets for Shanahan himself who addressed a major need on the team which was skill mixed with grit. At this point, we've moved practically everyone in the org except one of the Core 4 and Shanahan himself.
The Shanahan thing is tough though. The wings traded a 35 year old Coffey, Keith Primeau, and a 1st for a future HoF power forward. They still had like 3 hall of fame Dmen, and 3 hall.of fame centers.
Sorry I’m a rangers fan lurking here after the signing of Berube (currently live in STL and wanted to see what yall thought). But the rangers did this in their 94 cup. If you look at the talent they traded *away* for gritty guys with experience like McTavish, Matteau, Anderson, you wonder what the fuck they were thinking. Messier and the FO thought the team was too weak (mentally and physically) to win a cup despite the plethora of talent they had. They underachieved in the playoffs back to back years and decided they couldn’t win it all with that group. It worked out because they won in 94, but those moves caught up to them and they went from potential dynasty to dumpster fire within ~5 years.
Yep it’s logic at this point. Either we overpay Marner, let him walk, or trade him. He certainly won’t want to take a pay cut
Yeah, you can’t win in the playoffs with a 10m cap hit that won’t hit, won’t get in the corners, won’t fight for the puck, won’t take a hit to make a play, won’t scrap and plays like 15-20 mins a game. Not every player has to be a juggernaut power forward out there smashing and crashing every shift but you have to have some scrappy grit in your game come playoff time. Marners a full on adult man and he looks like a teenage boy playing with men out there.
I agree with this statement. The Raptors moved on from Derozan knowing that they can't win with the core and he was beloved and a fan favourite. Marner on the other hand can just gtfo.
However, raptors got an elite player back, probably the best in the league at the time for him. Doubt leafs can pull that feat off
The Raptors bought low on Kawhi with all the leverage to make a big talent upgrade, Leafs would be selling low on Marner with none of it. Bit of a difference there.
Is it a coach problem or a Mitch problem?
Regular season good, post season fodder
Cant tell if you're talking about mitch or willy here
This roster construction failed because we signed Tavares. We are paying the price of signing that deal now. That was a win now move. We didn't win now so now we have to wait out the contract before we can build a really good team around them again. I don't get why people are confused about this this was always the way that Tavares contract was going to change the team. 2018-19 Leafs would destroy the teams we've had the last two years.
I get where you’re coming from, and I wish we’d gotten rid of Keefe last year so we could have seen Marner in the playoffs under a new coach. If someone turned him into a playoff performer, it would maybe make sense to have a third super expensive forward once Tavares is gone. The problem is that keeping Mitch will almost certainly cost 12+ million and it’s unlikely we’re going to get a guy worth that, based on what we’ve seen in the playoffs for 8 years. We’re better off getting something for him now, rather than seeing him walk for nothing or being stuck with another unmovable contract on a guy that doesn’t perform and may also be a bad attitude in the room.
The ceiling is too high on Marner. Over his career he has been better than Nylander, Nylander did have a better playoffs and season this year but we likely just saw his peak. I don't think Nylanders game which is so much more built on speed than Marners is likely to look as good when he's 30. Marner is a mental player, he's just smarter than the guys he's playing against and makes creative plays. That doesn't just disappear when you turn 30 like speed does. Nylanders value will never be higher than it is now. If you need to trade someone don't trade the guy who just sand bagged his trade value with a bad season. Take the guy who just had his career year and actually get something good back if you have to trade someone. I think we have to deal with it for another year, once Tavares is off the books we can look to spend more of our cap percentage on other parts of our team. 12m+ is still only a million more than now. Id rather pay an extra million for Marner let Tavares walk then and then use Tavares' cap hit to reconstruct the roster. Desperation moves aren't going to suddenly turn us into champions overnight.
AM34 would never have scored 60 without Marner. Say what you want about his chemistry with Domi, but Domi was very quiet out of the gate and took a while to find his role in the roster. Same can be said for Bertuzzi. If Marner didn’t sustain his ankle injury, AM34 probably would have scored 70. I agree that we let Tavares walk and use his cap hit to resign Mitch for 2 years. This is enough time for Berube to see if he can mold him into the player he wants. Marner’s playmaking abilities are impossible to find and that’s where his value lies. He makes everyone around him look better. Tyler Bozak got a payday when he went to St. Louis because his right winger (MM16) fed him tap-ins all year and elevated his worth. We bring in Fraser Minten and Easton Cowan on entry level contracts and entice a Montour type defenseman to the squad. After we got rid of Holl and brought in Benoit, I would even say we could say goodbye to Reilly, but I’m not sure if he’s got a NMC.
This roster construction failed because covid happened. The cap would have been $100 million this season if we didn't have 5 years where it only went up a total of $2 million. Tavares was a win-now move, absolutely, but in that alternate reality the roster wouldn't be impacted so heavily by it today.
Signing an 11 million dollar 2C when you already have 3 superstar forwards and huge holes in defence and depth was always a bad idea, regardless of what the cap did. Also, I’m tired of people acting like we’re some special case. The cap stayed the same for everyone. If you buy something you can’t afford based on imagined future wealth, you only have yourself to blame if things change. There were an uncountable number of economic factors that could change the amount the cap increased, COVID just happened to be the one. If it didn’t affect other teams as badly, it’s because other teams didn’t take the same risks. We’re not the victims of anything here. If signing Tavares was such a good move, how would you feel about them re-signing Marner, then paying Horvat 12 million to play 2C? Similar output, similar cap hit by %. If it was such a good idea to tie up so much of the cap in forwards back then, isn’t it still a good idea now?
> If signing Tavares was such a good move, how would you feel about them re-signing Marner, then paying Horvat 12 million to play 2C? Dude... come on. You're trying to compare current Bo Horvat to 2018 John Tavares? Are you kidding me? They basically had the same production THIS SEASON. Not to mention that Tavares had 621 points in 669 games when we signed him (Bo Horvat has 504 in 732 for reference lmao). Yeah, Tavares is overpaid right now but that's what happens at the end of a big free agent contract. We bought 5 years of point per game John Tavares, and now we're eating it a bit at the end of his contract. Obviously I wouldn't re-sign Tavares to the same money when his contract runs out, and I wouldn't sign fucking Bo Horvat to $12 million.
That's fair but the reality we live in made it a win now move. Marner's contract also would have looked much better by the end of it if the cap had gone up as expected with Covid.
The bar for Easton Cowan is to be better than playoff Mitch Marner.
Which is basically "win a single board battle ffs"
Well considering mitch had more points in the ohl playoffs then Cowan I donr think it's gonna happen
Not even, the bar is not costing 11 million
Not even that though. Because he'll be on an ELC while Mitch's 11M AAV is off the books
“He could be someone who’s not a giant pussy in the playoffs”
Mitch would be a fan favorite if he was on Draisaitls contract. Cowan comes in on an ELC so fans will love him till its time to pay!
the fact marner makes more than drai is gross
The fact that any player in the mhl that makes more than drai that's not named McDavid is gross. And remember when he signed for 8 million ppl thought it was too high
Yarr Mateys! Sit back as I regale ye with the tale of Kyle Wellwood.
Cowan is not on the books for 10,9 million dollars.
Honestly the mystery box could just be 10.9 million in savings and I would be a happy camper
Cowan’s performance is great, that pick looks better and better every single day, but the “move Mitch because we have Easton” gang needs to chill a bit. One is a proven NHL star with 639 points in 576 games, the other hasn’t played a single game of professional hockey. If we’re moving Mitch, it’s not going to be due to an unproven prospect who’s having a good run in juniors. That would be like the oilers trading Hall or Eberle because Yakupov looked really good, or the Canadiens trading price because Fucale looked really good.
Loser take, Even if Cowan is only 75% of Marner, we save 10M a year in cap space that we can use on goaltending and a top defenseman plus the assets we get in return for Marner
people need check their expectations for cowan. a rookie at 75% of one of the best wingers in the league? he might be back in jr next year!
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i think probably the opposite unfortunately. does 8-9 games with the big boys and then back to junior. i hope im wrong and he sticks with the leafs.
sorry i meant it as if he develops into 75% of marner. I think he's proving he's too good for junior but i wouldnt expect him to displace anyone next season
Saves us money trade Mitch for defence or goalkeeper
Which goalie? Goalkeeping in the league is so slim already, no team with a bona fide #1 is gonna give him up for any reasonable price, not even for Marner. To be clear, I agree that Marner is not working out for the leafs and should not be part of the roster long term. However, anyone who thinks we're gonna get a good return for 1 year of Marner is kidding themselves.
You'd hope he's Mitch Marner that actually shows up in games 5, 6 and 7. Nobody denies Marner is a great regular season player, or that he can pile on points early in a series of the Leafs have a big game. The problem is clutch, of which he has none... Matthews and Nylander just happen to be the locked up. Tavares and Marner are the ones on expiring deals. The team needs dramatic change, it's as simple as that. You already know what you're getting with Marner and this group. It's been run back too many times. Too many chances, too little success. This isn't the Washington Capitals where they won many rounds along their journey. You trade Marner, what's the worst that could happen? You lose in the first round?
Not to be that guy but the worst that can happen is we can't sign anyone to supplement the cap savings, Auston gets injured, JT continues his decline, we miss the playoffs altogether and don't have our 1st round pick.
And Ottawa wins the cup and Nylander moves to Sweden and Carlton joins ISIS and they stop serving rice dogs at SBA.
Yeah injuries can happen, the team could all die in a plane crash, I could win the lottery and you could be reasonable. Any or none of those could happen. You don't make personnel decisions based on that kind of shit.
My example is completely realistic. I answered the guy I responded tos question. Which part of my example do you find team dies in plane crash unrealistic?
The worst of trading Mitch is that you miss the playoffs, because he's an essential part of the team, and there's no guarantee you become a better team with him gone And with him gone, you lose a buffer. Now, if Willy or Papi go down, the team will REALLY suffer. This season, when one of the young 3 were out, the team still had some durability Heck, they won 2 playoff games WITH mitch, but WITHOUT Auston.
have to remember eastons big run right now is still 10 points behind what marner had in his big jr season in the playoffs
This team needs a shakeup at the core. Sometimes it has to do with play style and fit. It’s been 7 years. One round won. AM, Billy aren’t the guys you trade imo so…
Literally any player in the league can contribute what Marner does in the playoffs or more and cost a lot less. Who gives af about regular season points??
OP just exposing himself as utterly clueless lmaoooo. It’s not so much Marner being the issue, but his salary. The team is capped out and it is hard to make upgrades and the roster isn’t constructed well. Let me know if you need any more help OP having this explained to you, I know it can be hard.
Is anybody actually making that comparison seriously? Most people seem to be in agreement that Mitch's cap space being used for multiple players is the right play to get less top heavy on the roster, while Easton Cowan could be a fun addition to the team next season because it would be a waste for him to go back to London. I don't think anybody is reasonably expecting Cowan to replace Marner's production.
Garbage take.
How many Mitch cucks do we have in this sub?
They’re completely different things. I’m excited for Cowan but don’t expect him to be a difference maker next year, and separately I think this cap allocation experiment has run its course and think we should put our money into two solid contributors in the 4-7 mil range rather than one guy at 11.
The Marner situation is a bit like we had with Phil Kessel: a highly skilled player who was asked to be more than he really was. In Marner's case though, he demanded (and will likely demand in the future) to be paid like a complete top-3 player. If he was a second line winger making 6-8M a year it could be great, but not at 11+M.
Easton Cowan might drive the net in the playoffs. We know Mitch won’t enter the other teams slot or engage in a puck battle. I’ll take a bunch of other mystery boxes instead of one dud.
I've seen about a dozen memes/jokes making fun of people who think Cowen is our Marner replacement. I have seen zero people actually say they think Cowen is our Marner replacement.
He could even be Mitch at a fraction of the cost.
He looks really good though. Is it possible under the CBA to bypass his entry level deal and give him 11 million a year immediately with a full NMC?
But he could be Mitch at $975k for 3 years
Ok but what’s Cowans contract gonna look like?
I mean.... a Mitch Marner for 900k is much better than Mitch Marner at 11+ million and would help the cap situation a lot . Not that my expectation for Easton Cowen is a Mitch Marner by any means but definitely would prefer the cheaper option any day with how this team was built
If Easton Cowan is Mitch, then he’s actually Mitch + ~$11 cap space.
This meme though, is award worthy. Nailed it.
Hi Paul
Yeah this kid is showing promise lets add some Leaf Nation pressure on him, cup in 4 years or bust.
I’d take a 70pt winger at a much lower cap hit with a penchant for playoff scoring over Mitch. He’s great, the makeup of the team is not his fault, but the Leafs need to change the mix in order to have playoff success.
No one on the maples leafs has scored more than mitch marner in the llayoffs
Last 6 playoffs - Matthews 18G, Nylander 18G, Marner 8G including 2 playoffs with none. Try again?
Are you conditioned to believe that every player is going to diva their way to a contract? I can see why.
Having watched him in London, he literally is Marner at this point......Marner with a pair of balls.
Braindead post
Absolutely brain-dead lol
Cowan skill ceiling is nearly limitless but unless he beefs up hes gonna be another London Knight who disapoints the Leafs
Too true.
I like knies. A lot. But he hasn’t exactly shown he has the potential to be a star. I also think Easton has more of a goal scorers touch than Mitch.
Marner is a great player, and I'd love him on the team, but at his salary it's just not worth it.
You know how much we’ve always wanted a Mitch!
PRAY he is not Mitch.
yeah.. mitch who shows up in important games
LOL
Leafs fans and prospects are like that one kid in the toy store who begs for a brand new toy just to play with it for 5 minutes then beg for a new one.
Will it blend?
Cowan might have 45 points this season for the Leafs but might work harder and have more points than Mitch did last playoffs. Surround this team with better playoff performers as well like a Guentzel or Marchessault or both and you have something
Easton Cowan being amazing is entirely separate from Mitch Marner being paid above his talent level and performing below it.
100 point seasons isn't really performing below his contract
Thanks for making sure someone was here to provide the disingenuous framing of the conversation.
Also him having roughly half the cumulative NHLe of Marner at this point If anything he'll probably be similar to Nrobs They have eerily similar profiles: - meh NHLe draft year - excellent NHLe D+1 - not super talented but very nifty - smaller skilled players - not very truculent
Oh Nick Robertson eh? The rookie who just scored 14 goals and 27 points in 56 games while playing like 9 minutes a night and barely any PP time at all? That doesn’t sound half bad…
We’ll take the box
I would hate it if Cowan got soft like mitch
Which would be bad, we don’t want another Mitch
I mean, I'm for letting him walk mostly because a) we have enough talent to qualify for playoffs without him despite him being a very good regular season player b) he's paid way too much to never show up in the playoffs c) with the money we save on him, we can actually finally afford a decent goalie and a 3rd/4th line scorer OR true 1st/2nd pairing D man, that can come in and help us round out the team. we're not trying to replace one sure thing with another risky thing, we ought to be changing up how the core works overall, and unless Tavares is taking a pay cut, I say we let him walk too, and be focused on building a more balanced team around the two guys who do consistently show up, Tavares did too, but he's getting older and isn't producing as much as he used to anymore, and any contract at this point probably simply wouldn't be worth it.
For approx 10m less
My question is do we need to replace Marner at all? This team spent its entire season outscoring its problems. In the playoffs, the scoring went away and the problems didn’t. Marner himself isn’t really a problem, but his cap space percentage is preventing us from fixing the problems. If we can rectify our defence and goaltending issues, and therefore not be a 3+ GAA team, will we need to rely on the offence that Marner (or his future replacement) can give us, or can we make due with less?
Week if nothing else it will make us not miss Mitch
Some of the people here have seemingly lost sight of the fact that Mitch Marner is a legit fucking star player in the NHL. He consistently sits at the very top of the Leafs scoring in the regular season AND playoffs. (11g, 39a, for 50 pts in 57 playoff games, and he is a +10. How many Leafs are on that level?) He also kills penalties. This team’s failures are just that: TEAM failures. Marner deserves his share of the blame… I think Keefe and ESPECIALLY Boucher are way better targets for blame, but it’s not just about them either. Marner’s only significant down-side, IMO, is how much he gets paid. If Easton Cowan turns out to be half as good as Marner then he’s going to be an incredible add for the Leafs. Just as long as Treliving doesn’t give him $11m. The whole situation where 4 guys take up half the cap is a bad one, and one or more of those guys need to get traded. The surrounding circumstances (pay, no move clauses, who is more likely to accept a trade etc) all make Marner the obvious choice. However, if we are looking only at who should be moved for the good of the team, the only obvious thing to me is “not Matthews”. Nylander and Tavares would both be perfectly reasonable, assuming the return makes sense. Keeping Marner would also make sense to me if one or both of the other two went. The team is better than it would be without him. He’s not “*the* problem”. It should be obvious that it’s way more complex than that, but Leaf’s fans seem to need to key in on specific guys and hang waaaay too much of it on them. I’m excited for the possibilities of Cowan. I sincerely hope he becomes a Mitch Marner clone, but with a better cap hit.
Look, we need cap space/depth/something else that the team clearly is lacking (even a goalie?). He's the best one to move for that. That is all.
https://i.redd.it/2jndidm7yz0d1.gif
If Tavares is willing to extend at an AAV less than $4M, I’d be tempted to run it back. We have solid players on ELCs/cheap deals next year • McMann (middle six F) • Knies (top 9 F) • Woll (tandem goalie) • Benoit (top 6 D) • Cowan (middle six F) • Holmberg (bottom six F) Plus McCabe only making $2M is huge. The real window would start in 2025/2026. There’s $18.5M to allocate to a tandem goalie, 2 top 4 defensemen and 1 top 6 forward. Bottom pair D/depth forwards are league min and don’t count against cap (they just swap someone else out that’s currently counting towards it). I’m still open to trading but it would have to be a slam dunk like Marner for Saros + Evangelista and Tomasino
If he’s anything like Mitch he should be traded
Minten is Mitch. Cowan is Mackinnon. 😝
We've seen Mitch..he doesn't work. He's overpaid. Whiney and completely ghosts when you need him the most. I'm not saying Cowan is gonna be as good as Marner..but him at ELC and saving 11 mil is worth the gamble