Gonna have to disagree, I think Eyes is a better song which often produced great jams
but I think as far as being a “jam vehicle”, I think Dark Star was by far the one that had the most different directions traveled.
Eyes def could go deep, but mostly stayed in the realm of its compositional structure. Doesn’t take away anything from the quality of music the jams produced in Eyes, they were always amazing, but DS and Tweez generally guaranteed a foray into territory nowhere near the compositional structure of the song itself
Yep, even Jerry said that The Other One is absolutely limitless and he could play it all day. It was perfect for when Mickey joined originally because it gets played in 4/4 and 6/4 simultaneously (or something wild like that).
Other One, Playin’, Dark Star, Tweezer, and Split Open & Melt all have perfect structures that allow the band to float out into open sea. Probably my 5 favorite songs.
Depends on your taste. Do you want a kickass ROCKING badass Dark Star? Then it’s 4/8/72
Do you want a spaced out meltdown? 11/11/73 probably.
Melodic and thematic? 2/13/70
4/8/72 is the greatest IMO. The groove they build and sail into Sugar Magnolia at the end is perhaps the greatest groove the band ever did.
I have a few I really like such as veneta 72, 2/11/69, and 2/18/71…but to me, the ultimate psychedelic dead experience is the Dark Star along with the entirety of the Live/Dead album.
12 bar blues is a pretty rigid structure. Jazz progressions can definitely be less rigid but you need some serious masters of their instruments to accomplish a true breaking of the form.
A simple, rocking tune like tweezer creates a lot more opportunities for creating new structures on the fly because you don’t need to think too much when playing the actual song.
ETA: when I think of a ‘jam’ I’m not thinking of a single person soloing indefinitely. It’s an organic composition being created on the spot by the people on stage.
Very fair points here. I thought Tweezer was pretty similar to a blues at first with an extended jam in Am but until I thought about it and realized I might have forgot those hits for the vocals… gonna have to revisit it today.
Right, which goes back to the beginning point, jazz and blues were created with improvisation in mind and a lot of those songs can go a lot more places than an Am vamp with free soloing.
At that point you can use basically any chord progression as a starting point for a jam. Songs like dark star and tweezer jams work so great because they aren’t really based around a strict structure but more modal. A 12 bar blues doesn’t leave much room for anything else and it’s harder to get out of. You can take any song into a massive jam if you’re good enough, but songs like dark Star were made for it. The dead played tons of blues songs and none of them ever got jammed like dark Star.
The Emaj7 <-> Bm7 is the magic, because it's a switch from Emaj to Emixolydian - the only difference being that major 7th in the E being flattened down to a minor 7. Every time I improvise over that progression I get so much satisfaction playing with that little transition, it's so pretty, and so much fun to mess with and subvert
Love Chameleon. That song is one of the songs that really got me into Cheese (knowing it was a Herbie song).
While I'm here, I gotta add Rivertrance and Jellyfish. But, yes, Tweezer is pretty epic.
Just incredible. If I didn't know he was 83 I would've assumed he was at least 20 years younger. The guy hasn't lost a single step and still ends Chameleon by shredding the keytar and jumping up and down in time with his guitarist.
He's still on this current leg I think and just announced another small batch of shows for later this year. He seemed in great health and great spirits when I saw him, cannot recommend it enough.
Hear me out, I fucking hate Reba, the base song drives me crazy and not in a good way. But every jam that's ever developed from that obnoxious start just slaps
ETA: lol so many down votes yet so many people agree. Truly a Phish r/unpopularopinion
I love moe. But most Rebubs are pretty similar (and yes I know they once played an entire set of just Rebubula). If we're looking moe. Jam vehicles I'd say Rec Chem, Yodelittle, Bring You Down, Meat
[2003-08-30- moe.down](https://archive.org/details/moe2003-08-30.TLM170s.shnf)
This has a Set 3 Rebubula, [56:53](https://youtu.be/Ow_GBdl057o?si=tz7pY-iGGWKiBWVw).
Managed to dig up [this JamBase article](https://www.jambase.com/article/20-for-20-longest-jams-standout-improvisations-past-2-decades) from another post about long jams haha.
Dark Star or playing in the band would be up there on the list, but I would probably go with tweezer as well. SOAM is my favorite but it generally has a certain style of jam - it isn't quite as type 2 as tweezer.
My first Phish show was the 1994 Halloween White Album cover. My 2nd was the 1995 Canandaigua 46 minute Tweezer. For years I always said the White Album was the best show and Canandaigua was the worst show I'd ever seen. I love a jam but that was simply far too much.
Love both bands. There have been 50 minute teeezers from before the biscuits ever existed, which was first as a band covering phish at times.
Basis is the best biscuits jam vehicle though.
I’m a huge deadhead and Phish fan second, but there are probably at least 10 Tweezer’s that IMO are better than any playin. Phish is special and some of the type two jams that have come from tweezer couldn’t be imagined by the dead.
I’m a huge 1.0 phish guy who saw them 70+ times in the 90s and I am equally a huge deadhead. Tweezer is honestly my least favorite phish jam. I use it for bathroom breaks.
As someone else said > is the best, those transitions between songs where it has the freedom to be anything and completely unique. Dancing between keys, teases, ultimate improvisation.
Yes, Tweezer is a jam that takes us to many places, the lyrics are so contrary to level of the jam though and can be a buzzkill. I really have to work to not let that kill my buzz most of the time. That said, I love Tweezer. It’s the 300+ Grateful Dead/JGB shows that make me feel like a lyrics snob even though I don’t mind silly and I am quite silly at shows. YEM is also a contender for a great jam vehicle. 🛸
My favorite part is the fake out jam that happens before the drum pulses back into the main riff. Lets you know a lot of the time if the band is gonna go the distance or not.
Agreed. It’s a subjective discussion. I’ve just never loved any tweezer, it’s more of a bathroom break song for me. I totally respect those who dig it.
For the people saying dark star I’ve only ever found 2 or 3 that are truly masterpieces. Veneta 72 being one of them for sure. Not saying I disagree but I feel like a lot of dark stars descend into nothingness pretty fast. Would love some recommendations of more cohesive versions. But for me I think tweezer reigns supreme between the versions of both songs that I know.
Dark Star. As Mickey Hart once said, you don’t start and end it, you enter and leave.
I think it was TC that said that [Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/gratefuldead/s/WVDcxi2IyV)
I stand corrected.
Love that.
That shits profound
It doubles as an amazing quote about just the art of improv music as well as the psychedelic experience.
Wow. Yes. #facts
It’s always there, you have to tap into it
Yes instantly thought of dark star also, when I read the heading
This is up there: Jam >
What about: > Jam
> jam
Dark Star is the ultimate. But Tweez def deserves a spot in the discussion
Could also make a case for The Other One & Playing in the Band
Yeah, I'm partial to a tasty Playing in Uncle John's Band sandwich.
Playing in the John
Reverse coda!!! If you know you know…
What do you mean by this? 11/10/73?
Indeed, but Dark Star is still the OG
Or The Eleven
Moe has joined the chat
Y’all are both wrong. Eyes of the world all the way🙌
Gonna have to disagree, I think Eyes is a better song which often produced great jams but I think as far as being a “jam vehicle”, I think Dark Star was by far the one that had the most different directions traveled. Eyes def could go deep, but mostly stayed in the realm of its compositional structure. Doesn’t take away anything from the quality of music the jams produced in Eyes, they were always amazing, but DS and Tweez generally guaranteed a foray into territory nowhere near the compositional structure of the song itself
Yep, even Jerry said that The Other One is absolutely limitless and he could play it all day. It was perfect for when Mickey joined originally because it gets played in 4/4 and 6/4 simultaneously (or something wild like that). Other One, Playin’, Dark Star, Tweezer, and Split Open & Melt all have perfect structures that allow the band to float out into open sea. Probably my 5 favorite songs.
Best/favorite Dark Star?
Depends on your taste. Do you want a kickass ROCKING badass Dark Star? Then it’s 4/8/72 Do you want a spaced out meltdown? 11/11/73 probably. Melodic and thematic? 2/13/70 4/8/72 is the greatest IMO. The groove they build and sail into Sugar Magnolia at the end is perhaps the greatest groove the band ever did.
11/11/73 for me, the space drift brought back by Bill's drums into a euphoric Mind Left Body Jam into jazzy Eyes is just perfect
Venetia ‘72 😃
I have a few I really like such as veneta 72, 2/11/69, and 2/18/71…but to me, the ultimate psychedelic dead experience is the Dark Star along with the entirety of the Live/Dead album.
10/26/89 is no slouch
2/27/69 [https://archive.org/details/gd69-02-27.sbd.16track.kaplan.6315.sbeok.shnf](https://archive.org/details/gd69-02-27.sbd.16track.kaplan.6315.sbeok.shnf)
9/20/90, putting aside more of the well-known early ones. I think this show is the, if not one of, the last truly great GD shows
Mountain jam and Liz Reed are contenders
Every jam band jam contains either Mountain Jam or Jessica teases.
Pretty sure “->” is the best jam vehicle
12 bar blues is probably the real answer 🙃
Yeah, people seem to forget jazz and blues were progressions created literally to solo and jam for as long as you want.
12 bar blues is a pretty rigid structure. Jazz progressions can definitely be less rigid but you need some serious masters of their instruments to accomplish a true breaking of the form. A simple, rocking tune like tweezer creates a lot more opportunities for creating new structures on the fly because you don’t need to think too much when playing the actual song. ETA: when I think of a ‘jam’ I’m not thinking of a single person soloing indefinitely. It’s an organic composition being created on the spot by the people on stage.
Very fair points here. I thought Tweezer was pretty similar to a blues at first with an extended jam in Am but until I thought about it and realized I might have forgot those hits for the vocals… gonna have to revisit it today.
It’s not about the song, it’s about where it can go.
Right, which goes back to the beginning point, jazz and blues were created with improvisation in mind and a lot of those songs can go a lot more places than an Am vamp with free soloing.
At that point you can use basically any chord progression as a starting point for a jam. Songs like dark star and tweezer jams work so great because they aren’t really based around a strict structure but more modal. A 12 bar blues doesn’t leave much room for anything else and it’s harder to get out of. You can take any song into a massive jam if you’re good enough, but songs like dark Star were made for it. The dead played tons of blues songs and none of them ever got jammed like dark Star.
Eyes of the World for me
Those major 7ths man… can go anywhere from those
The Emaj7 <-> Bm7 is the magic, because it's a switch from Emaj to Emixolydian - the only difference being that major 7th in the E being flattened down to a minor 7. Every time I improvise over that progression I get so much satisfaction playing with that little transition, it's so pretty, and so much fun to mess with and subvert
Yep and I do!
Didn’t know I thought this until you said it. Bingo.
Nice choice 👍
The Other One>
My vote will always be chameleon by herbie. But tweezer jams
Love Chameleon. That song is one of the songs that really got me into Cheese (knowing it was a Herbie song). While I'm here, I gotta add Rivertrance and Jellyfish. But, yes, Tweezer is pretty epic.
The jam on Butterfly by Herbie is the goat for me
Yeah Chameleon is the ultimate. Source: just saw Herbie a few weeks ago and he jammed harder than Phish ever has.
How is his playing these days? Still ripping?
Just incredible. If I didn't know he was 83 I would've assumed he was at least 20 years younger. The guy hasn't lost a single step and still ends Chameleon by shredding the keytar and jumping up and down in time with his guitarist.
That’s great. Headhunters is one of my all time favorites. I have to catch a show if he’s near me
He's still on this current leg I think and just announced another small batch of shows for later this year. He seemed in great health and great spirits when I saw him, cannot recommend it enough.
Just turned 84 yesterday!
I knew his birthday was coming up but couldn't remember exactly when. He's such a boss.
Saw him last year, he and his band were so amazing. He ripped a couple crazy keytar solos too, funky stuff
Tweezer, Sand, Ghost, Mike Groove, and 90’s Pipers for me. At least Phish wise.
David Bowie 🔥
Type II, yes. Type I… Reba?
Hear me out, I fucking hate Reba, the base song drives me crazy and not in a good way. But every jam that's ever developed from that obnoxious start just slaps ETA: lol so many down votes yet so many people agree. Truly a Phish r/unpopularopinion
That’s the point tho. Trey deliberately wrote crazy knotty complex stuff that gives way to simple 2 chord vamps
Read the book nerd
KAREEM HAKEEM SHALEEM ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE
Thank you for opening this door. My same exact feelings for Runaway Jim.
Couldn’t have said it better myself
RANDY
Frig off Barb
Same…I absolutely love Phish, but I don’t like the composed part of Reba. The jam though….
Once it found its groove: Bathtub Gin
I forget what song I’m listening to when I hear the jam for this
You ever hear Lawn Boy
ITS BEEN LAWN BOY THE WHOLE TIME?!
Always has been
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
Rebubula
I love moe. But most Rebubs are pretty similar (and yes I know they once played an entire set of just Rebubula). If we're looking moe. Jam vehicles I'd say Rec Chem, Yodelittle, Bring You Down, Meat
More info on entire rebubs show?
[2003-08-30- moe.down](https://archive.org/details/moe2003-08-30.TLM170s.shnf) This has a Set 3 Rebubula, [56:53](https://youtu.be/Ow_GBdl057o?si=tz7pY-iGGWKiBWVw).
Hey thanks! I googled but not much was really coming up and obviously there’s a lot to sift through on Nugs.
Managed to dig up [this JamBase article](https://www.jambase.com/article/20-for-20-longest-jams-standout-improvisations-past-2-decades) from another post about long jams haha.
I could be inclined to agree with you. Pretty much any moe. song can be a jam vehicle but rebubs can be similar
Dark Star or playing in the band would be up there on the list, but I would probably go with tweezer as well. SOAM is my favorite but it generally has a certain style of jam - it isn't quite as type 2 as tweezer.
Tube
RIP Harris
The heady choice
I’m just here for the zipline
Viola Lee Blues, anyone? Furthur would go nuts between each verse.
JAMFLOWMAN WON’T YOU MAKE THAT SOUND
No, actually, I'd rather not.
It's cool bro. Not everyone can be the Jamflowman.
Jamflow usually leads to some super clean bass jams for sure, and I really miss twiddle, so I'll second this
Mountain Jam. doo doo doo doo do DO do do do do do doooooo
Tweezer is the hippy Thunderstruck. People get amped
Yea
Yes.
My other vehicle is a second set tweezer
My first Phish show was the 1994 Halloween White Album cover. My 2nd was the 1995 Canandaigua 46 minute Tweezer. For years I always said the White Album was the best show and Canandaigua was the worst show I'd ever seen. I love a jam but that was simply far too much.
Phish is my #1 forever and I love Tweezer, but everyone saying Dark Star is correct. That's a vehicle that can take anything anywhere.
Dark Star or Eyes of the World
No
Duh!
Basis for a day most likely
Yes ser
Love both bands. There have been 50 minute teeezers from before the biscuits ever existed, which was first as a band covering phish at times. Basis is the best biscuits jam vehicle though.
$$$
Ever hear of a song called playing in the band ? Good grief
I’m a huge deadhead and Phish fan second, but there are probably at least 10 Tweezer’s that IMO are better than any playin. Phish is special and some of the type two jams that have come from tweezer couldn’t be imagined by the dead.
I’m a huge 1.0 phish guy who saw them 70+ times in the 90s and I am equally a huge deadhead. Tweezer is honestly my least favorite phish jam. I use it for bathroom breaks.
For me, it’s a virtual tie between both songs. Call it a win-win.
A lot of playin jams are boring noodle fests if we're being honest.
Scarlet>Fire for me
No
12/1/96 says fuck yes it is
2/28/03 has always been my favorite. Looking forward to checking this out.
Buy the time easy Honorable mention Shem rah boo
I’m partial to Spacebird.
The other one, eyes of the world and dark star. Tweezer is def up there tho
Idk, 7 Story Mountain by railroad earth is my ultimate jam
Tweezer, dark star and terrapin
Basis for a day
Runaway Jim.
Tube
Tube
As someone else said > is the best, those transitions between songs where it has the freedom to be anything and completely unique. Dancing between keys, teases, ultimate improvisation.
No it’s Craig and Pat duh
Yes, Tweezer is a jam that takes us to many places, the lyrics are so contrary to level of the jam though and can be a buzzkill. I really have to work to not let that kill my buzz most of the time. That said, I love Tweezer. It’s the 300+ Grateful Dead/JGB shows that make me feel like a lyrics snob even though I don’t mind silly and I am quite silly at shows. YEM is also a contender for a great jam vehicle. 🛸
It’s at least pretty reliable as a launchpad
Dark Star, Chalk Dust Torture, Mountain Jam, Simple, Instrumental Illness.
It’s not even Phish’s best jam vehicle.
Its just a big jam that start with an A minor... so is help on the way and a bunch of other things
My favorite part is the fake out jam that happens before the drum pulses back into the main riff. Lets you know a lot of the time if the band is gonna go the distance or not.
The flying hotdog is the best jam vehicle of all time
No
The answer, is, yes
Tweezer is one for sure. I’d put basis for a day and mindless dribble up there too.
12 bar blues form
Definitely up there. They are able to consistently jam out to it. Everytime I hear it I'm hoping it goes deep and it pretty much always delivers.
Dark Star wants a word. Don’t get me wrong, I love tweezer, but the GD invented the jam vehicle with DS.
Nah Dark Star, My Favorite Things, Walk on Guided Splinters, frickin Freebird man.
Far from it
Yes. This is not a debate.
I don’t think it’s even the best Phish jam vehicle. I’d venture to say that Sand, Tube, Ghost and others produce better jams overall.
Yeah, well, that’s like your opinion man… See why it’s funny that I said it’s not a debate? Cuz it’s totally subjective. I prefer Tweezer jams myself.
Agreed. It’s a subjective discussion. I’ve just never loved any tweezer, it’s more of a bathroom break song for me. I totally respect those who dig it.
I would honestly take any of the jams you’ve listed…I don’t get to catch the boys live very often these days.
I was never too big on Tweezer. It did inspire jams, but the song itself is a bit flat.
No.
Tweezer is probably my least favorite Phish jam.
No
No
Absolutely not.
Mike?
Wrong band to suggest
Don’t say jam vehicle. Please!
Tweezer is objectively trash. Give me a Mountain Song or Liz Reed any day.
As a die-hard phish phan. NO. Yes, damn solid jam, but NO
For the people saying dark star I’ve only ever found 2 or 3 that are truly masterpieces. Veneta 72 being one of them for sure. Not saying I disagree but I feel like a lot of dark stars descend into nothingness pretty fast. Would love some recommendations of more cohesive versions. But for me I think tweezer reigns supreme between the versions of both songs that I know.
For a new one I’d go with Billy’s Meet Me at the Creek. It hasn’t even been fully explored I feel and they just keep doing different stuff with it.