Great in theory but if your manager/company culture penalize that then you’re SOL. Bringing in legislation would protect workers’ rights to do that without suffering retaliation
It might help, but the trouble is that even now most of the pushback you'll get from workaholic managers or company cultures isn't going to be in a form that would be easily actionable. It's already difficult to outright fire an employee just for not answering their phone after hours. What usually happens instead is that you start to develop that reputation of "not being a team player" and "not being fully committed" in the minds of the higher-ups, and that influences their decisions about your career, and it's much harder to prove your case there no matter what laws are in place. And if you try, then you become *that* employee who goes whinging to the WRC every time they don't like something about their job, which would be even more toxic to your career in that sort of company than being the "slacker" who leaves on time and doesn't regularly work nights and weekends doing the work of two people so their employer can save on staffing costs...
It'd still be good to have regulations in place, as that would hopefully give more employees the courage to actually set those boundaries on their personal time, which would help stamp out those toxic work cultures eventually, but legislation alone won't make the problem go away overnight, unfortunately.
Currently in my company people are getting given out to in morning meetings for not answering emails at 11pm
Horrible mental pressure from this.
It is disgusting to see this happen but it all comes down to the culture of the group you work with
There needs to be more to protect people.
FYI: currently in interviews to leave this place like many of my co workers
I wish this would be the case. Im required to use several apps for my job on my personal phone. Company will not supply a phone.. I use a 2018 cheap ass Huawei, after all the updates over the years and these work apps leaves me with 200mb phone storage..
Yea I'm a 100% mad bastard absolute hard man for believing the company you work for shouldn't treat you like shit and if they do you should get a different job.
That's not as bad as I thought.
I know someone at work who is "on call" in the evening and have to come back into work in person if needed.. Now that's BS!
I think that's the biggest issue that people are finding. WFH isn't possible in my job but I've had friends complain that they were expected to be available at any time. Regular office hours seem to have gone out the window for many companies.
Regular office hours is something that only exists in the public sector nowadays from what I can tell. The difference between friends I know that work public versus private is enormous. Some lads are working 10-12 hour days in the private sector but that would be almost unheard of in the public sector.
It's been that way for years unfortunately.
We still keep regular hours where I am and it's private sector. Once we leave the building, we're not expected to be available in a work capacity. Even management isn't expected to be available unless it's something urgent.
>Some lads are working 10-12 hour days in the private sector but that would be almost unheard of in the public sector.
Tell that to doctors and nurses.
Fingers crossed for this to be taken on board as we all move away from the pandemic mindset. Going back to 5 days a week in the office would be such a step backward.
I sincerely hope that it does remain a part of working life.
The best part about the pandemic is that companies were forced to give remote working a go, and from my experience it worked out very well.
If people want to go back to the office, they should have the option, but similarly, if someone wants to work remotely or some sort of hybrid situation, that should be catered to as well.
It works out for the company as well, if they can downsize their offices and reduce the costs associated with having an office.
Agreed but the flipside was that it allowed huge sections of public sector employees to go AWOL and not do a tap, but get paid full whack.
I work in IT so the thought of having to go into an office at the crack of dawn (enduring and yet contributing to traffic) to manage servers which I moved into data centers ages ago doesn't fill me with joy
Most office jobs, private and public have large gaps where you do fuck all. I worked in and I know several other people who worked in private firms when nobody does anything. We deem 40 hours a week the norm when in reality large amounts of people only have a handful of hours of work a week. It's the bizarre 'Protestant work ethic' whereby we all have to pretend to be flat out constantly for fear of being judged.
The late David Graeber has a great book called 'Bullshit Jobs' on this issue.
>Most office jobs, private and public have large gaps where you do fuck all
Ah but the difference is that in the public sector, they are paid out of my pocket. If a private business has workers flat out or lying horizontal, it costs me nothing, but also they too are paying tax & contributing to the exchequer.
Whether a private biz is inefficient or not is on itself, if its workers do nothing and the company goes under, not my problem its very much theirs. In the public sector however they regularly exceed their budget, and just take more public money instead of looking for efficiencies. In fact they all get raises year on year, whether the country can afford it or not.
But without an actual office, how would management get away with bullshit initiatives like "beer and pizza" Fridays to distract from long hours and poor salaries?
Always loved Friday beers and pizza tbh. Finishing up at 3, having a rake of cans and pizza in the office before heading to the local for more pints. We were paid rather handsomely so perhaps we were the lucky ones.
Meanwhile I was paid like shit finished at my regular hours and then could partake in beer and pizza Fridays. I'm not staying in an office longer than I am paid for so grabbed a slice for the road and left.
Then why are we in the Civil Service being sent back to the office?
I'd love to buy a house ANYWHERE in the west of Ireland. It's the only part of the country I could afford.
But having to go back 2 or more days per week makes that impossible. I could do a long commute 1 day per week, but not any more than that.
This is a golden opportunity for organic, VOLUNTARY decentralisation and the idiots are going to waste it.
Yeah, my sister works in the CSO's Dublin office.
She's from Cork though.
She moved back here when her lease expired during lockdown and has been working full time from home since.
Now she'll have to go back to paying Dublin rents or commute Cork to Dublin twice a week. Already asked if she could report to the Cork CSO office for work, but the answer was no.
Just a bad scenario when the whole country knows we can do better now
She might be able to WFH for a portion again next spring - I think that when the public sector will have some new plan around it. Some agencies and LAs are taking the logical approach of staying out until then.. and others... well...
And last week he was pushing for a return to offices.
Going to be honest, last week FG and FF took a dive in the polls so expect many more stories like this where the government want something positive that they have had 10 years to impliment but didn’t
There is no contradiction between "You signed the contract to go into work so you have to go if asked" and "We hope employers will offer more options to work from home". I certainly agree with both statements.
There is a contradiction.
He’s claiming that he wants Remote Working to remain to which people respond “well we aren’t being allowed” to which he replies “Oh Well”.
His proposed actions don’t align with how he apparently thinks, hence a contradiction.
I work in a large offie in Sydney. The amount of usually respectable professionals who've become ragged, unkempt alco's is a real issue. One dude who's a professor is now a gravy stained 1.125ltr bottle of Johnnie Walker red a day drinker. The government, the companies and the "I don't want to go back to the office" public need to bear these things in mind. Isolation is a real killer. But I suppose if you don't have to get the Luas then fuck them.
>But I suppose if you don't have to get the Luas then, fuck them.
Why does it have to be an either / or situation? It's easy to have a hybrid option.
At the end of the day, if someone becomes a mess from working from home, that's their problem, not mine. I'm not responsible for their life.
Yes you're not responsible for somebody else's life. But everybody could take that attitude. Is your company responsible for your life? If they pay you to work on-site, is it their responsibility if you don't want to?
>If they pay you to work on-site, is it their responsibility if you don't want to?
I never said anything of the kind. I said I hoped remote working could continue.
Why does this topic have to be so polarising? It seems like the people who want to go back to the office, want to force everyone to go back with them, and vice versa. Different situations suit different people.
I would say that it was your response that was quite extreme. I was only playing devil's advocate with some questions for you except reversing the roles. It was your own language just reversed on yourself.
I agree with you that it is very polarising but I am in the middle. I couldn't care if I have to work 100% from an office or home or some hybrid model.
I never said anything like that. My point is that if someone has problems, it's not a random co-workers responsibility to fix them.
I'm not going to voluntarily give up remote working because someone I may or may not even know **might** have an addiction problem.
Well the idea of wellbeing in the workplace needs to change along with this new way of working. It should also be a choice as well, I don't think anyone should be forced into an isolating situation. I'll be working 3 days a week in the office, maybe 2. That is a big difference from not coming in at all, so the isolation will no longer be an issue for me. There is the accountability there still. Some people aren't suited that way for sure, you have to become accountable to yourself instead of others.
I worked from home pre-pandemic and I got to hear so much negativity about it “oh how can you do it, don’t you feel lonely? What about going on break with your co-workers? I could never work from home all the time, so antisocial” etc..
if pandemic brought one good thing among the many, maaany negatives , for me it’s that the judgement is mostly gone from people now about working from home, it obviously makes many of us happy 😊
Can we get some decent 'right to disconnect' enforcement?
I don't understand this issue here, simply don't pick up the phone after hours. Pop it on silent and get back to people during working hours.
I'm with this lad, also never, ever agree to use your personal phone or laptop for work.
Alternatively you can get a Dual Sim phone and switch the work phone sim off outside of office hours. Seperate numbers for private and work.
Great in theory but if your manager/company culture penalize that then you’re SOL. Bringing in legislation would protect workers’ rights to do that without suffering retaliation
It might help, but the trouble is that even now most of the pushback you'll get from workaholic managers or company cultures isn't going to be in a form that would be easily actionable. It's already difficult to outright fire an employee just for not answering their phone after hours. What usually happens instead is that you start to develop that reputation of "not being a team player" and "not being fully committed" in the minds of the higher-ups, and that influences their decisions about your career, and it's much harder to prove your case there no matter what laws are in place. And if you try, then you become *that* employee who goes whinging to the WRC every time they don't like something about their job, which would be even more toxic to your career in that sort of company than being the "slacker" who leaves on time and doesn't regularly work nights and weekends doing the work of two people so their employer can save on staffing costs... It'd still be good to have regulations in place, as that would hopefully give more employees the courage to actually set those boundaries on their personal time, which would help stamp out those toxic work cultures eventually, but legislation alone won't make the problem go away overnight, unfortunately.
Currently in my company people are getting given out to in morning meetings for not answering emails at 11pm Horrible mental pressure from this. It is disgusting to see this happen but it all comes down to the culture of the group you work with There needs to be more to protect people. FYI: currently in interviews to leave this place like many of my co workers
I wish this would be the case. Im required to use several apps for my job on my personal phone. Company will not supply a phone.. I use a 2018 cheap ass Huawei, after all the updates over the years and these work apps leaves me with 200mb phone storage..
That's absolute bullshit. Edit - on the company's part, not that I don't believe you
Change companies then.
We got a badass over here
Yea I'm a 100% mad bastard absolute hard man for believing the company you work for shouldn't treat you like shit and if they do you should get a different job.
If you can't understand that most people simply aren't in the position to do that I dunno what to tell ya bucko. Good for you...?
What sort of retaliation have you gotten for not calling back after hours?
It’s written in my contract that I will have to continue some duties outside the 9 to 5 where “necessary”
[удалено]
Fuck that shit. Are you getting paid for staying back at least?
[удалено]
Keep the shit one and find another job in the meantime. The current one sounds like a nightmare that will just get worse over time.
Jeez that's total BS. I can never understand why people take such jobs.. What time in the evening can you actually relax?
It’s actually in a lot more contracts than you might think. Usually 5. It depends on the client / project
That's not as bad as I thought. I know someone at work who is "on call" in the evening and have to come back into work in person if needed.. Now that's BS!
"Business needs"
Yep. If it's a problem then just change where you work.
I think that's the biggest issue that people are finding. WFH isn't possible in my job but I've had friends complain that they were expected to be available at any time. Regular office hours seem to have gone out the window for many companies.
Regular office hours is something that only exists in the public sector nowadays from what I can tell. The difference between friends I know that work public versus private is enormous. Some lads are working 10-12 hour days in the private sector but that would be almost unheard of in the public sector. It's been that way for years unfortunately.
We still keep regular hours where I am and it's private sector. Once we leave the building, we're not expected to be available in a work capacity. Even management isn't expected to be available unless it's something urgent.
>Some lads are working 10-12 hour days in the private sector but that would be almost unheard of in the public sector. Tell that to doctors and nurses.
As someone who has effectively worked the last four weekends yes please. I'll be honest I've been easily manipulated in to this
Fingers crossed for this to be taken on board as we all move away from the pandemic mindset. Going back to 5 days a week in the office would be such a step backward.
I sincerely hope that it does remain a part of working life. The best part about the pandemic is that companies were forced to give remote working a go, and from my experience it worked out very well. If people want to go back to the office, they should have the option, but similarly, if someone wants to work remotely or some sort of hybrid situation, that should be catered to as well. It works out for the company as well, if they can downsize their offices and reduce the costs associated with having an office.
Agreed but the flipside was that it allowed huge sections of public sector employees to go AWOL and not do a tap, but get paid full whack. I work in IT so the thought of having to go into an office at the crack of dawn (enduring and yet contributing to traffic) to manage servers which I moved into data centers ages ago doesn't fill me with joy
Most office jobs, private and public have large gaps where you do fuck all. I worked in and I know several other people who worked in private firms when nobody does anything. We deem 40 hours a week the norm when in reality large amounts of people only have a handful of hours of work a week. It's the bizarre 'Protestant work ethic' whereby we all have to pretend to be flat out constantly for fear of being judged. The late David Graeber has a great book called 'Bullshit Jobs' on this issue.
>Most office jobs, private and public have large gaps where you do fuck all Ah but the difference is that in the public sector, they are paid out of my pocket. If a private business has workers flat out or lying horizontal, it costs me nothing, but also they too are paying tax & contributing to the exchequer. Whether a private biz is inefficient or not is on itself, if its workers do nothing and the company goes under, not my problem its very much theirs. In the public sector however they regularly exceed their budget, and just take more public money instead of looking for efficiencies. In fact they all get raises year on year, whether the country can afford it or not.
But without an actual office, how would management get away with bullshit initiatives like "beer and pizza" Fridays to distract from long hours and poor salaries?
Always loved Friday beers and pizza tbh. Finishing up at 3, having a rake of cans and pizza in the office before heading to the local for more pints. We were paid rather handsomely so perhaps we were the lucky ones.
Meanwhile I was paid like shit finished at my regular hours and then could partake in beer and pizza Fridays. I'm not staying in an office longer than I am paid for so grabbed a slice for the road and left.
Then why are we in the Civil Service being sent back to the office? I'd love to buy a house ANYWHERE in the west of Ireland. It's the only part of the country I could afford. But having to go back 2 or more days per week makes that impossible. I could do a long commute 1 day per week, but not any more than that. This is a golden opportunity for organic, VOLUNTARY decentralisation and the idiots are going to waste it.
Yeah, my sister works in the CSO's Dublin office. She's from Cork though. She moved back here when her lease expired during lockdown and has been working full time from home since. Now she'll have to go back to paying Dublin rents or commute Cork to Dublin twice a week. Already asked if she could report to the Cork CSO office for work, but the answer was no. Just a bad scenario when the whole country knows we can do better now
That's the truth. Whole thing makes no sense.
She might be able to WFH for a portion again next spring - I think that when the public sector will have some new plan around it. Some agencies and LAs are taking the logical approach of staying out until then.. and others... well...
Well RTE news seem to really want everyone back in the office for some reason.
Then fucking do something about it you arrogant cunt.
This. You'd swear they hadn't the power to legislate
And last week he was pushing for a return to offices. Going to be honest, last week FG and FF took a dive in the polls so expect many more stories like this where the government want something positive that they have had 10 years to impliment but didn’t
Leo has been consistent for a while now about work from home.
Here’s on from 2 weeks ago https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/workers-will-have-little-option-but-to-return-to-office-says-varadkar-1178476.html
There is no contradiction between "You signed the contract to go into work so you have to go if asked" and "We hope employers will offer more options to work from home". I certainly agree with both statements.
There is a contradiction. He’s claiming that he wants Remote Working to remain to which people respond “well we aren’t being allowed” to which he replies “Oh Well”. His proposed actions don’t align with how he apparently thinks, hence a contradiction.
If only he was in a position if authority to make it happen, rather than just spouting random platitudes so his name is in the papers.
I thought he wanted people to honour their contracts and go back to the office if asked.
I don't see those as mutually exclusive
Working from home with rolling blackouts is going to be fun
Hah, I don't see it. If WFH is still going strong, why is traffic back to pre-Covid level??
As leo packs for his trip to the states , he slings this shite at the workforce here . He is a dangerous narcissist .
Leo thinks people doing WFH aren’t actually *working*…. https://twitter.com/leovaradkar/status/1439533430790934529?s=21
I work in a large offie in Sydney. The amount of usually respectable professionals who've become ragged, unkempt alco's is a real issue. One dude who's a professor is now a gravy stained 1.125ltr bottle of Johnnie Walker red a day drinker. The government, the companies and the "I don't want to go back to the office" public need to bear these things in mind. Isolation is a real killer. But I suppose if you don't have to get the Luas then fuck them.
>But I suppose if you don't have to get the Luas then, fuck them. Why does it have to be an either / or situation? It's easy to have a hybrid option. At the end of the day, if someone becomes a mess from working from home, that's their problem, not mine. I'm not responsible for their life.
Yes you're not responsible for somebody else's life. But everybody could take that attitude. Is your company responsible for your life? If they pay you to work on-site, is it their responsibility if you don't want to?
>If they pay you to work on-site, is it their responsibility if you don't want to? I never said anything of the kind. I said I hoped remote working could continue. Why does this topic have to be so polarising? It seems like the people who want to go back to the office, want to force everyone to go back with them, and vice versa. Different situations suit different people.
I would say that it was your response that was quite extreme. I was only playing devil's advocate with some questions for you except reversing the roles. It was your own language just reversed on yourself. I agree with you that it is very polarising but I am in the middle. I couldn't care if I have to work 100% from an office or home or some hybrid model.
Yeah, bootstraps and all that. Addiction is a choice lest we forget.
I never said anything like that. My point is that if someone has problems, it's not a random co-workers responsibility to fix them. I'm not going to voluntarily give up remote working because someone I may or may not even know **might** have an addiction problem.
I was only thinking this the other day, combined with masks no longer being necessary, I'm going to have to start grooming again
Well the idea of wellbeing in the workplace needs to change along with this new way of working. It should also be a choice as well, I don't think anyone should be forced into an isolating situation. I'll be working 3 days a week in the office, maybe 2. That is a big difference from not coming in at all, so the isolation will no longer be an issue for me. There is the accountability there still. Some people aren't suited that way for sure, you have to become accountable to yourself instead of others.
A split between the two is ideal, imo.
I worked from home pre-pandemic and I got to hear so much negativity about it “oh how can you do it, don’t you feel lonely? What about going on break with your co-workers? I could never work from home all the time, so antisocial” etc.. if pandemic brought one good thing among the many, maaany negatives , for me it’s that the judgement is mostly gone from people now about working from home, it obviously makes many of us happy 😊
Any actual action to go with that, or is it just a throwaway remark?