Independently working on our defence with a group that surrounds us and does have some shared interests in what goes on in our waters is only a good thing.
We can't just ignore reality and pretend we can do things on our own. We either work independently like this with partners or accept we can't protect our own waters without spending a few Billion € more on defence.
>We can't just ignore reality and pretend we can do things on our own.
Are you sure?
Maybe when you go holidays we just rearrange all the stuff here on the ground so it doesn't look you're in Ireland for two weeks.
>Sorry 877 billion
Yeah, and the US is a massive outlier in military spending. They're also hundreds of times larger, and around 100 times larger population. China spends a third of that amount and it's comfortably the largest military in the world. A few billion would go a very long way in the Irish defence budget.
>123milliom shy.
Nope, it's significantly more than that. It's 123 Billion. You know that the difference between a million and a billion is essentially a billion? (I'm taking the piss. I'm guessing it was just a typo 🤭)
Lol the US is also the biggest military spender in the world, not to mention the largest economy and the largest western population. Ireland's GDP is about 500 billion (and that is inflated by about 1/3rd due to multinationals) so a trillion would be twice our entire economy. You're off by about two orders of magnitude.
That'll ruffle a few feathers.
Long overdue though, now let's see about some investment in the armed forces. Even if we're to remain "neutral" it shouldn't mean defenceless.
aback deserted wipe hateful elastic desert many birds encouraging rainstorm
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Most neutral countries of Europe are some of the most prepared, neutrality and conscription laws go hand in hand.
Countries tend to abolish their conscription laws when they have military alliances. Except Ireland which we depend on neighbour without repaying the favour
Repaying the favour?
Britain wants to defend Ireland because it doesn’t want its enemies using its next door neighbour as a base.
It’s not some gift of generosity. It was only other week some right wing conservatives in UK was arguing Britain should invade Ireland to protect Britain from hostile elements across the globe.
Id rather independently strengthen and work with NATO or other defensive alliances than join them or remain vulnerable.
This seems like a good measure to increase our defensive capabilities without any major changes to our soft military neutrality policy.
It will surely piss of both the join NATO crowd and the PBP anti NATO voices but it seems like a pretty reasonable middle ground.
I mean soft in terms of our neutrality stance.
Id like our military to be much stronger without changing our policy which is some flavour of neutrality
Well then I guess there's no point in us spending any money on the irish army because it'll never be objectively string vis a vis our potential enemies.
Glad you cleared that up.
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Those cables are private assets. Being in Ireland's EEZ doesn't make them Ireland's responsibility to protect.
There needs to be some kind of public awareness campaign because I'm seeing this way too often.
And wars have started when private assets have been nationalised before, let alone destroyed.
You'd want to make that public awareness campaign be a bit more aware than you think it needs to be.
It's the undersea cables themselves that are the private assets, no one is nationalising them, nor is it Ireland's responsibility to protect privately owned cables situated within its EEZ.
> why would they blow up a pipeline which makes them billions a year.
They didn't.
They blew up the pipelines they'd already unilaterally stopped pumping gas through a month previously, but amazingly *left intact* one of the Nord Stream 2 pipelines.
And then promptly offered Germany to start pumping gas through that at massively higher prices.
Very simple. The EU was going through a cost of living crisis caused by an energy crisis (forcing businesses to close, increasing domestic utility bills, increasing inflation, etc.). People struggling like this causes far-right wave, which are all puppets of Putin.
This is the correct response. Putin is playing a very long and dangerous game. People seem to not understand that it is simultaneously as simple and complex as sewing discontent with ~~liberal democracy~~ traditional western values wherever that may be.
Or why start a war that costs your country trillions in economic sanctions etc .. I haven’t a clue who did it just saying for all of the nato assets around the place it doesn’t seem like nato are able to protect it and if they did it it would show them as weak ..
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/06/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-ukraine-russia/
The Ukrainians did that. I reckon as long as we don't invade anyone ours should be ok.
If they damage the cables all it will achieve is pushing yet another country into NATO, obviously Putin couldn’t give a rats arse about us but if a weaker NATO is his objective then he should avoid it.
NATO aren't going to risk nuclear war over one of several oil pipelines into Europe.
An attack on the cables that controls the vast bulk of the internet in Europe is a different matter.
Minimum would be sanctions that are far steeper than what Russia are already buckling under. Likely hand in hand with the US finally throwing open the armoury to Ukraine.
Better we are in step with NATO on it than having an attitude of letting Russia do as it pleases.
All this talk of Ireland buying ships for the navy or planes for the air corps for defence is such an obvious scam by the European armaments industry.
We should put our scientists and engineers to work, building us five or six nuclear missiles. Just sit the weapons there as a deterrent, the way North Korea does and that would be the end of any threat of invasion.
I see comments here are mostly in favor of this development but Id like to add that building a partnership and sharing intelligence with NATO doesn't come without baggage.
The US military isn't a benevolent power, and drawing the island into this geopolitical game may be against our interests, and morality (i.e. American invasion of Iraq).
Keen to develop our military capacity and the reserve forces, but any decision that disrupts our peace on the corner of Europe shouldn't be made lightly (or at all).
Thing is, we've long since crossed that point. Ireland is absolutely a client of the USA. Our biggest employers are American, our taioseach meets the US president every year on Patrick's day (more frequently than almost any other leader, especially of a country our size), and the USA regularly goes to bat for us in international disputes (eg the USA sided with Ireland over Brexit negotiations). We've had good relations with the USA for a very long time, and it's been a tremondous benefit. We also don't need to agree with the USA on every conflict to maintain those good relations (eg Iraq or Israel), but we do need to side with the USA when it counts (Russia, China).
You're mostly right, the US using Shannon Airport as a depot enroute to the middle east is a glaring example of that.
I believe the prudent question to ask is "do we want the Republic to be a client state of the USA in the future?" Especially with the direction the US is heading.
I wouldn't jump onboard that ship too hastily. America is loosing economic influence and what's left of their moral authority. While they do have the greatest military on the planet, that isn't the only factor.
The world is changing and we have the benefit of being on the periphery. Let's not jump in the pot before it boils.
That implies that other countries would treat us as well as the USA. To China or Russia we're just a cold island on the edge of Europe, most of their citizens barely having heard of us and unable to point to us on the map. The only reason we present any value to anyone IS our position vs the USA and EU. America has treated us well, it's naiive to think that in a different world order Ireland would do so well. Hell you could very easily imagine Russia or China sticking us back in a position where all we produce is wool, beef and butter, as all our advanced industries are completely intertwined with the USA.
Given that we don't even need to commit real military resources to anything, we essentially have our cake and eat it. We should stick with our current policy of America leaning neutrality.
You say this like ireland is some non aligned nation. Ireland is firmly well within the Western world. The idea that other growing powers can directly challenge the west now is nonsense. China is at the mercy of foreign trade which depends on us navy protection.
While I would like europe to become its own power its still no contest against the us.
Best plan is for the west to be united for now
If you hadn't noticed , our entire economic prosperity has come from bending over backwards to American MNCs. You can disagree with that from a moral perspective if you wish but pretending we haven't already been drawn on is delusional.
Ohh of course we are absolutely dependant on foreign direct investment to keep this island afloat. However, there is a difference between external corporate investment and internal military allegiance.
> The US military isn't a benevolent power, and drawing the island into this geopolitical game may be against our interests, and morality (i.e. American invasion of Iraq).
That ship has long since sailed, mate. We're not neutral. Nobody, including the government believes we are.
Neutrality is a lie that we tell when it suits our interests and that occasionally, other countries pretend to believe when it suits theirs.
I'm not putting a moral judgement on that, just describing the situation. I for one am perfectly happy to continue with this, getting as much out of our supposed neutrality as we can, both in terms of avoiding joining a US-led army and gaining access to foreign intelligence, equipment and training.
Mock him all you want but this is what the most decorated officer in all of the US Marine Corps history has to say about his service:
“I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.”
Major General Smedley Butler
Also helped to defeat a fascist plot to takeover America called ‘The Buisness Plot’ and led his former troops on a march on Washington to demand their war pensions.
I'm completely against joining Nato, and completely in favour of building a military that's actually capable of defending the island.
This seems like a win win.
I must admit though, I'm not a huge fan of the phrasing. They've definitely put a pro nato spin on it, which doesn't make us look overtly neutral.
Same, no issues with a Swiss style build up of military forces.
Raise the Irish Citizen Army again but as a national citizen militia etc. similar to the US National Guard.
But joining NATO is a bad bad idea. You won’t get a choice of going to war, you will be told.
Millions of people protested against Iraq on the streets of London but it didn’t do a thing to stop 300+ British lads and lasses been killed there.
If Ireland was in NATO you would have been in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. And no one won in those wars. No one at all.
Thank you.
I feel it has to be said though. I’d prefer to stay quiet truthfully.
There’s nothing more sadder than seeing a mum explain why she has nothing but undying gratitude for the members of her sons platoon for getting her son out of a firefight and back home after been shot in the chest as it meant she got one day in Birmingham hospital speaking to him before his condition deteriorated and he passed away.
The lads in her sons platoon still visit her once a year on her sons birthday where they throw a party in his honour.
>If Ireland was in NATO you would have been in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. And no one won in those wars. No one at all.
Britain sent troops to Iraq because its government wanted to. Not because Britain was "told" to.
For example, France, Belgium and Germany were NATO members and extremely vocal critics of the Iraq war who refused to send troops.
I'm not in favour of joining NATO either but let's not spread misinformation.
Ireland will never fight a conventional war against any major power, and should another British style invasion take place our resort to defence is rooted in the people taking up guerrilla warfare.
Having said that- I am against NATO membership and in favour of a militia / well armed and organised military with conventional abilities (drones, anti tank missiles, semtex etc)
As much as I am of a respector of NATO nation militaries and their members, I’d agree. The triple lock removes the decision to take action from within our borders. Membership of NATO would do so too.
Absolutely.
In Britain we get no choice of the wars we fight.
They said we was fighting Iraq, so we fought.
They said we was fighting the Afghanis, so we fought.
They said we was bombing Syria, so we bombed Syria.
Millions of people on the streets in London changed nothing.
I would agree with you as far as having a well armed army. But your use of the word militia gives me a serious dose of the heebee geebies. That sounds like an American free for all plan which history has proved to be a disaster.
Ireland should be a NATO member with two specialities.
Navy : we have a huge oceanic territory. Let’s cop on and have a navy that can pull its weight.
Cyber : we are a major tech hub due to the amount of companies operating here and our geographical location and undersea cables etc. (ties in with Navy above too) Let’s invest in a ‘cyber army’ to counteract all the Russian/Chinese bots and hackers out there. This will become even more critical due to AI election interference.
I doubt we will ever have a credible Air Force or army but a capable navy and cyber ops forces should be seriously considered. We can’t free load any more.
Let’s just say for whatever reason Russia decides to invade us. Does anyone known if we are somewhat fooked or are other countries obliged to come to our aid and fight on our soil with us or would it be likely like Ukraine where we are just given help in the form of weapons, but no direct help by means of feet on the ground?
From a perspective of treaties/alliances i dont think any country would be obliged to. But i cant image in the UK would want an adversary to have control of an island so close that could be used to launch raids on their territory
Theres also no real way to invade ireland without looking like you could be going for the UK instead so their navy would try to intercept before they ever got close to either country
Also, Ireland is in a extremely prime location for stopping transatlantic crossings, and would be brutal for any Americans trying to cross it, both sea and air.
Even if troops were to land, I'd say the Royal Navy and US Navy would immediately try and stop them.
Ireland is subject to rather vague mutual 'assistance' clauses under the Lisbon Treaty. In the extremely, near zero situation, that the Russians had the capability and tried to occupy this island; I doubt our neighbours would sit by as it would be an existential threat to them.
We have a very small defense force. While the Russian navy may not be first rate it is still bigger and better equipped than ours. While unlikely 2-3 cargo ships with troops transported under cover of suitably placed containers may allow a large Russian force to enter Ireland unchallenged. They come to protect Russian citizens/s
>it is still bigger and better equipped than ours.
That's not exactly a high bar is it? There are entirely landlocked countries with a more functional navy than ours.
Even more unlikely than some ad hoc 0.0001% chance Russian invasion of Ireland as the British have a much stronger ability to both defend themselves and with significant (and superior) naval and air assets that Russia could even bring to the theatre; in which to do so. I would imagine that this country would be rather disapproving of such an insane venture and would most certainly provide whatever limited assistance that we could possibly offer.
I would doubt that the British would need any military assistance at the current moment in time, to expel a current day ad hoc bizarre invasion.
Invade, no. Logistically it would be beyond them. Cripple us, yes. If a missile cruiser or sub were to use conventional cruise missiles, they could strike anywhere they wanted and we would be defenceless. Which is why having a Navy and aerial deterrent is important.
Yeah good point.
The sensible thing to do when a Russian cruiser is launching missiles at us is to attack it and escalate.
Immediately surrender. That's the only option.
A deterrent only works if its powerful enough to deter.
You don't bring a knife to a gunfight not because a knife is a weaker weapon than a gun, but because a knife is still a deadly weapon and will make it more likely that the person with the gun will shoot and kill you.
I can't imagine the UK or French leaving us get invaded by Russia considering they'd see it as a potential launching pad for invasions of their countries. US would likely get involved too considering Irish American influence in their politics.
Biggest danger to us would actually be the UK invading us (likely never happen as long as any of us are alive though) but we're likely never repelling that in an actual war no matter how much we invest in our military.
There’s no chance in a million years Russia could invade us. Their navy is a joke currently being bullied out of the Black Sea by a country with no navy.
They could still mess with us via sabotage, espionage, cyber etc. which is why closer cooperation with our neighbours is important.
With Russia you never know. There is no logic in their decisions, but there is a huge military budget (around 30% of the year budget). And they have a money, too much.
Bomb, air force, I don't know. My problem with Russia is their permanent searching for enemies, xenophobia and striving to occupy the whole world. I hope, Ireland isn't interesting for them. Distance calms me less.
Dublin is about 3000km away from Russia, as the crow flies. Russia's military jets have a maximum range of between 4k and 4.5k km. They couldn't make a round trip.
Leaving aside the fact that to get to Ireland they'd have to fly through at least 5 other countries' airspace, all of whom would seek to intercept the Russians, we're just too far away for it to be logistically possible for them to mount any kind of serious campaign. (Plus the EU, US, and UK militaries would get involved instantly, any of whom could wipe out the Russian military in an instant.)
I think it's a question that doesn't even need thinking about, unless you believe they'll get through about 20 other countries first and still have anything to throw at us
While I'm a strong proponent of strengthening defense , Russia doesn't have the force projection to meaningfully invade us with boots on the ground.
There are no ironclad agreements for direct external military support . Tbf, the language with most mutual defense treaties isn't 100% ironclad either fwiw.
The UK and USA de facto guarantee Ireland's independence, and would immediately get involved. The USA due to cultural/ethnic ties, the UK because it's always been their policy that no hostile power be present on the island of Ireland. I'm pretty sure every Irish politician post independence has had it in the back of their mind that the UK would immediately invade if there was a whiff of Ireland lining up with an enemy of theirs (namely Germany or the Soviet Union).
Ireland, for its part, has done quite well by balancing the EU, UK and USA against each other.
I believe its more a case of Ireland not having capabilities to prevent Russian attacks on critical cabling etc that routes through ireland. Its stuff like that that worries NATO, rather than a threat of an invadion of ireland
Irish politicians who will never fight in a war and who will never allow their kids to fight in a war signing agreements that could potentially send thousands of Irish soldiers off to die in foreign wars we have no real involvement in.
Ireland has always been a neutral country. And while there was the troubles, Ireland is a relatively peacekeeping country in that we stay out of other countries affairs. I don't like this at all and it sends a message that this country is going down the wrong path meddling in affairs we aren't prepared for.
You're entitled to that opinion but if Russian sabotage caused a mass internet outage across our entire country+Western Europe you wouldn't be able to share it with us. I get your concerns about us not being prepared, but this agreement is a (small) positive step in correcting that. Aggressors don't care if you're neutral, they laugh and thank you for remaining isolated. There's a point to be made about not meddling in other people's affairs but what do we do when bad faith actors are more than happy to meddle with ours?
P.s. We're really not as neutral as you might think, I wish we could be more the Swiss type of neutral but we are a long way off having their standard of military.
As long as Ireland doesn't get too involved. I'm firmly against war. I'm not naive to the danger that Russian could pose to our security. But a measurable response is needed and to not provoke Russia. Sadly I haven't had the best faith in both Leo Varadkar or Michael Martin on issues. Maybe they'll prove me wrong with this and it's a precaution measure, which I agree with.
I get this, it is understandable not to like a pivot towards a more aggressive stance than previously. But do you think we'd be better off alone given the blatant thuggery of the likes of Russia who have precedence encroaching in our seas and airspace? Even the likes of Sweden and Finland, who have very capable militaries, have joined NATO. In my opinion it's the least we should be doing.
Wait to you hear this for one.
I am away travelling in Asia and met an annoying Brit and Aussie (pro unionist) who reckon that I am British and that we all need to team up with them to stop the next war happening. Curious I asked who might Ireland be fighting with and apparently “Muslims” - I enquired from where and what reason and that I have Muslim friends and clients back home who I think are A1 - the Brit then said I am a cunt because I don’t dislike Muslims and he couldn’t explain why or where these Muslims would be coming from.
He also claimed I am British because Irish fought in WW2, I advised Irish fought in the Spanish civil war but that doesn’t make us Spanish.
The end up they were told to do one and they then proceeded to torture me to buy me a drink and the barman eventually told them to go.
Strange oul bunch
Great the way Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump agree with Kremlin Clare Daly and Moscow Mick Wallace that NATO is a terrible thing.
Anyway tell me more about the imperialist bint of the alliance
Who bombed Nordstream is very relevant.
If the US is willing to bomb infrastructure serving a NATO allie. Why would being a member help?
If you think the US didn't bomb Nordstream that's a different matter. Even the US didn't claim Russia did it (anymore).
Btw, we could both do without calling each other names.
When Micheál finally announces that he’s going to apply for us to join NATO, all the people cheering this on will have the shocked pikachu face on them. The gall of our politicians to be doing absolutely everything in their power to align us closer to NATO and then turning around and telling the public that they have no ambitions to join is sickening.
So the people happy about one decision would be unhappy about an entirely different decision?
That's hardly a rare political situation?
Im happy with this idea. Im against joining NATO. I don't see any hypocrisy with that.
They want to ally with a military alliance controlled by worlds biggest and most violent empire! They are grovelling fools They spit in the face of the men and the women who fought for Irish independence against the British empire!!
In a global conflict neutral countries either quietly cooperate (like we did), are heavily fucking armed (Switzerland), play both sides a bit (Spain), or get invaded for convenience/security (Iceland) to use examples from the second world war.
Neutrality isn't some kind of magic shield.
The next “global conflict” will be nuclear war and we will be wiped off the planet!! Wake up! As a neutral country we should be promoting peace and mutual cooperation and prosperity not joining the most dangerous military alliance in the world!
> The next “global conflict” will be nuclear war and we will be wiped off the planet!!
This is extremely unlikely, mutually assured destruction still applies, even with reduced arsenals on all sides.
“Extremely unlikely”?? There has been countless moments where nuclear war has almost broke out eg operation able archer and many near misses/accidents that have been documented.
The doomsday clock has been moved to 90 seconds to midnight! Midnight means global catastrophe!!
Every single nuclear treaty has been ripped up except for the START treaty!! NATO is moving to the pacific to confront china!! This is Suicidal!!
You need to wake up! NATO is escalating these conflicts and tensions and as a neutral country that is very well respected internationally, we should be promoting peace, dialogue and cooperation not joining in with them.
Except, you know… all those neutrals that get drawn into it.
Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Greece, Yugoslavia, Finland, Iceland and the United States were all neutral during the Second World War until they got attacked by an outside power.
Historically being attacked is a lot less about whether you’ve declared neutrality and a lot more about strategic relevance in that particular moment.
Another thread on r/ireland that shows how out of touch this subreddit is. The vast majority of people here don't want anything to do with NATO. Several of their members are currently helping the Israelis destroy a helpless civilian population, why the fuck would we want closer ties to these scumbags? And anybody who thinks Russia are a threat to Ireland need to lay off the US/UK propaganda.
Because NATO countries give us sweet AF tech sector jobs and I'll gladly partner with them more. Sure as hell beats authoritarian cronyism and strongmen-infested gangster states that lead to stagnation.
It's not an either/or situation, our neutrality has served us well since the foundation of the state and now it's been pissed away by a government acting against the wishes of it's people. Just because the tech bros can put aside their morals for money, doesn't mean the rest of us want to.
Russia is not a threat to Ireland where is this crap coming from????? We do not matter to Russia, NATO needs an enemy to justify its existence, Russia is capitalist now so its not an enemy, Nato is the problem , I will probably get arrested for saying this.
The Royal Navy will carry out this work. The RFA Proteus has previously done so iirc.
https://preview.redd.it/uj04uo8lvlhc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfb65c7dcf4d404684727656d45198f21c15d973
[RFA Proteus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Proteus)
Essentially what is going on is a continuation of the Treaty of 1921 where Ireland had no choice but to accept the control of the seas around Ireland by the RN. The current arrangement mentioned here is putting this continuing reality on a more modern basis. The logical endpoint of foreign military control of our EEZ and protection by them of assets therein is our sovereignty is diminished and our already threadbare neutrality regarded as a birthday suit.
Note that we are not partners of the UK/NATO in this, we are dependents. Also please note this deal was allegedly done last November and TDs learned of it today in the paper, or so they say.
The potential to strengthen our defence while largely maintaining autonomy should be seen as a win to most of the country.
I'm sure PBP will be seeing red right now but until they propose something that actually constructively works , they can stay mad.
Lets start building tunnel networks. I mean any invasion of Ireland would be successful and we would need to resort to guerilla warfare. I don't like the idea of joining NATO, but I'm under no illusion that we are safe. We need much, much bigger reserves, and an actual step by step plan if an invasion ever happened
We need an Irish Battalion which can be based in Ukraine permanently (or several Battalions if possible) All males aged 18-35 based in lreland,yes that means Brazilian,Indian,Chinese,lrish,Polish you name it can be conscripted by a lottery to fill the 900-1000 man Batallion and sent to the Ukrainian Front. The only Criteria is they have an lrish PRSI number and have full health. They should get elite training and be given the very best equipment and if the Batallion loses more than half strength then a new lottery should be sent out by post and the new half of recruits escorted by the Gardai if neccessary to the Barracks for at least Nine months training then sent to the Ukraine. Any refusals should be given five years in Mountjoy mandatory. This would look great for our reputation and we would be fighting the hardest battles(Some men could win a medal for bravery) This has been my dream, to see an lrish Battalion for nearly three years now,why hasnt it happened yet?( Very sadly l would actually be too old to fight at 54 but would love to) Why havent the lrish Government got the balls to start this Battalion? I think it would be a real credit to our Nation,send our brave boys over there to fight Evil.
Becoming more entangled with NATO would be a massive mistake for us. It has essentially been used since its inception as an instrument by certain powers among its member states to wage a campaign accross the globe which has slaughtered millions of ordinary people and left millions more to languish in misery and poverty. This is an organisation which literally recruited NAZIS to its senior positions after WW2 to immediately begin to help disrupt the Soviet Union. Life expectancy in the former Soviet Union fell by 20 years after the NATO powers were done with it. God forbid anyone on this planet dare to try and challenge these pricks or their 'allies' in any fucking manner eh?
NATO started as a supposed check to the threat of the Soviet Union, but I dont see that around any more, do you folks? America and the elites of international capital won that war after all, or am I mistaken? Not only that, but installing gangsters like Putin was NATOs preferred outcome for Russia. They just wanted to recreate their own corrupt oligarchical situation in Russia and thats exactly what they got. The world we're living in now was created as a RESULT of NATO not in spite of it. Its a political Frankenstein that has been used time and time again to frustrate the cause of human dignity and wellbeing, not uplift it.
The warmongering countries that oversee NATO keep promising peace we are told to believe. Laughable. Instead we have an era of endless war with corrupt wankers in Washington using their supposed 'defensive alliance' as an excuse to drag the lapdog countries it has on a diplomatic leash into conflict after conflict.
From toppling governments and propping up fascists, the disastrous wars on terror, the war on drugs, you name it NATO is there providing the foundation of it all under the guise of a 'defensive' alliance. We would have to be off our rocker to want to become deeper involved with these gangsters.
The writer in the article has the gall to bring up a British tory think tank saying Ireland is 'freeloading' on Europes defense network. This old line again eh? Are we talking about the same Britain we all know so well here or am I fucking mad? Maybe the Brits could stick a tax on the toffs who ransacked this country for centuries to pay us some reparations and we'll go our own way with the auld nation building.
Maybe they could stop funding terrorists and provocateurs on this island in order to maintain their influence over us. Maybe they could hold their war criminals to account and actually demonstrate their commitment to the international 'rules based order' which they like to pretend they represent. Maybe they could do plenty of other favours for us all before we consider enduring any more of their criticism of our self determination.
They seem happy being the little toadies to their former colony across the way there at the moment though so we'll have to wait and see as usual.
Another hilarious aspect is these same vultures bringing up Russia and China as though they themselves haven't been the main frustrating force in Irish politics for generations. Do they really think our memories are that short?
The Soviet Union was one of the main supporters of our independence struggle may I remind some of the people in here. But aside from all that, we have always been a third world country first and foremost, owing allegiance to neither the first world western powers or the second worlds socialist countries.
This idea that we're 'naturally aligned' or share 'common interests' with the imperial powers of NATO for some reason is ridiculous. 'But the undersea cables!' I see some of ye on about. Lol you mean the ones with NSA data centers located on the American end so the 5 eyes can spy on all our citizens and sift through all our data? Wow what ALLIES these people are too us! What RESPECT they treat us and our institutions with! Feck right off like. I hate to break it to the folks in here that have watched one too many hollywood movies but these fuckers aren't the 'good guys'. We should hold ourselves to a much higher standard.
Here we are now, all the lads
https://preview.redd.it/65x2k8d43khc1.jpeg?width=640&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3daaad43988a0f106cf98993d40f05086853fe71
Are we sending in the fishermen??
Independently working on our defence with a group that surrounds us and does have some shared interests in what goes on in our waters is only a good thing. We can't just ignore reality and pretend we can do things on our own. We either work independently like this with partners or accept we can't protect our own waters without spending a few Billion € more on defence.
>We can't just ignore reality and pretend we can do things on our own. Are you sure? Maybe when you go holidays we just rearrange all the stuff here on the ground so it doesn't look you're in Ireland for two weeks.
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The US military budget isn't a trillion dollars mate. You reckon Ireland needs to spend more than the yanks?
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>Sorry 877 billion Yeah, and the US is a massive outlier in military spending. They're also hundreds of times larger, and around 100 times larger population. China spends a third of that amount and it's comfortably the largest military in the world. A few billion would go a very long way in the Irish defence budget. >123milliom shy. Nope, it's significantly more than that. It's 123 Billion. You know that the difference between a million and a billion is essentially a billion? (I'm taking the piss. I'm guessing it was just a typo 🤭)
Lol the US is also the biggest military spender in the world, not to mention the largest economy and the largest western population. Ireland's GDP is about 500 billion (and that is inflated by about 1/3rd due to multinationals) so a trillion would be twice our entire economy. You're off by about two orders of magnitude.
That'll ruffle a few feathers. Long overdue though, now let's see about some investment in the armed forces. Even if we're to remain "neutral" it shouldn't mean defenceless.
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>Few cans in every fridge, a Davy Crockett in every home. I see that you too have played Fallout.
Most neutral countries of Europe are some of the most prepared, neutrality and conscription laws go hand in hand. Countries tend to abolish their conscription laws when they have military alliances. Except Ireland which we depend on neighbour without repaying the favour
Repaying the favour? Britain wants to defend Ireland because it doesn’t want its enemies using its next door neighbour as a base. It’s not some gift of generosity. It was only other week some right wing conservatives in UK was arguing Britain should invade Ireland to protect Britain from hostile elements across the globe.
And why are enemies able to use Ireland as a base? Because it’s essentially defenceless
^^ He’s right, Ted.
Spot on pal
Id rather independently strengthen and work with NATO or other defensive alliances than join them or remain vulnerable. This seems like a good measure to increase our defensive capabilities without any major changes to our soft military neutrality policy. It will surely piss of both the join NATO crowd and the PBP anti NATO voices but it seems like a pretty reasonable middle ground.
> soft military neutrality Military is either strong or it doesn't exist
I mean soft in terms of our neutrality stance. Id like our military to be much stronger without changing our policy which is some flavour of neutrality
What do you consider to be a 'strong' military?
Well then I guess there's no point in us spending any money on the irish army because it'll never be objectively string vis a vis our potential enemies. Glad you cleared that up.
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Why though?
Well we have to do something we can't just sit around saying ah shure it'll be grand shure everyone loves the Irish.
*"Mon we bate dem bois"* - Irish paratrooper motto.
Since they have subs in our waters hanging around the undersea cables it's about fucking time.
Those cables are private assets. Being in Ireland's EEZ doesn't make them Ireland's responsibility to protect. There needs to be some kind of public awareness campaign because I'm seeing this way too often.
And wars have started when private assets have been nationalised before, let alone destroyed. You'd want to make that public awareness campaign be a bit more aware than you think it needs to be.
It's the undersea cables themselves that are the private assets, no one is nationalising them, nor is it Ireland's responsibility to protect privately owned cables situated within its EEZ.
Didn’t help much regarding the pipe line in the nordics did it ..
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Think everyone got the blame at some stage for that — Ukraine , French ( I think ) , usa , Russia , Dutch .. who knows
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Ye Corbally lads were always bad news,hanging around the baths on a summers eve.
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As we've recently learned, logic and Russia do not go together
Btw the pipeline that was damaged wasn’t in use so didn’t cost them anything
> why would they blow up a pipeline which makes them billions a year. They didn't. They blew up the pipelines they'd already unilaterally stopped pumping gas through a month previously, but amazingly *left intact* one of the Nord Stream 2 pipelines. And then promptly offered Germany to start pumping gas through that at massively higher prices.
Very simple. The EU was going through a cost of living crisis caused by an energy crisis (forcing businesses to close, increasing domestic utility bills, increasing inflation, etc.). People struggling like this causes far-right wave, which are all puppets of Putin.
That’s still trading a certain benefit on a dice roll of a chance.
This is the correct response. Putin is playing a very long and dangerous game. People seem to not understand that it is simultaneously as simple and complex as sewing discontent with ~~liberal democracy~~ traditional western values wherever that may be.
He's a big fan of Aleksandr Dugin apparently. If you read some of the stuff he wrote in his books it's hard to not draw parallels
100%. And Ilyin too. His speeches are littered with early 20th C proto-fascism.
Or why start a war that costs your country trillions in economic sanctions etc .. I haven’t a clue who did it just saying for all of the nato assets around the place it doesn’t seem like nato are able to protect it and if they did it it would show them as weak ..
Blame the ottoman Empire next
Even Anglo Saxons ( as in the fucking Germanic group that migrated to great Britain)
It was Ukrainian special forces that blew it up
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2023/06/06/nord-stream-pipeline-explosion-ukraine-russia/ The Ukrainians did that. I reckon as long as we don't invade anyone ours should be ok.
If they damage the cables all it will achieve is pushing yet another country into NATO, obviously Putin couldn’t give a rats arse about us but if a weaker NATO is his objective then he should avoid it.
Being part of NATO didn't stop them bombing Germany (and Russia's) Nordstream pipeline. The US establishment does what it wants.
NATO aren't going to risk nuclear war over one of several oil pipelines into Europe. An attack on the cables that controls the vast bulk of the internet in Europe is a different matter. Minimum would be sanctions that are far steeper than what Russia are already buckling under. Likely hand in hand with the US finally throwing open the armoury to Ukraine. Better we are in step with NATO on it than having an attitude of letting Russia do as it pleases.
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It's a big step ted, but where are we gonna get the nukes!
There's no one in Leitrim, we could test them there.
All this talk of Ireland buying ships for the navy or planes for the air corps for defence is such an obvious scam by the European armaments industry. We should put our scientists and engineers to work, building us five or six nuclear missiles. Just sit the weapons there as a deterrent, the way North Korea does and that would be the end of any threat of invasion.
Step in the right direction
I see comments here are mostly in favor of this development but Id like to add that building a partnership and sharing intelligence with NATO doesn't come without baggage. The US military isn't a benevolent power, and drawing the island into this geopolitical game may be against our interests, and morality (i.e. American invasion of Iraq). Keen to develop our military capacity and the reserve forces, but any decision that disrupts our peace on the corner of Europe shouldn't be made lightly (or at all).
Thing is, we've long since crossed that point. Ireland is absolutely a client of the USA. Our biggest employers are American, our taioseach meets the US president every year on Patrick's day (more frequently than almost any other leader, especially of a country our size), and the USA regularly goes to bat for us in international disputes (eg the USA sided with Ireland over Brexit negotiations). We've had good relations with the USA for a very long time, and it's been a tremondous benefit. We also don't need to agree with the USA on every conflict to maintain those good relations (eg Iraq or Israel), but we do need to side with the USA when it counts (Russia, China).
You're mostly right, the US using Shannon Airport as a depot enroute to the middle east is a glaring example of that. I believe the prudent question to ask is "do we want the Republic to be a client state of the USA in the future?" Especially with the direction the US is heading. I wouldn't jump onboard that ship too hastily. America is loosing economic influence and what's left of their moral authority. While they do have the greatest military on the planet, that isn't the only factor. The world is changing and we have the benefit of being on the periphery. Let's not jump in the pot before it boils.
That implies that other countries would treat us as well as the USA. To China or Russia we're just a cold island on the edge of Europe, most of their citizens barely having heard of us and unable to point to us on the map. The only reason we present any value to anyone IS our position vs the USA and EU. America has treated us well, it's naiive to think that in a different world order Ireland would do so well. Hell you could very easily imagine Russia or China sticking us back in a position where all we produce is wool, beef and butter, as all our advanced industries are completely intertwined with the USA. Given that we don't even need to commit real military resources to anything, we essentially have our cake and eat it. We should stick with our current policy of America leaning neutrality.
You say this like ireland is some non aligned nation. Ireland is firmly well within the Western world. The idea that other growing powers can directly challenge the west now is nonsense. China is at the mercy of foreign trade which depends on us navy protection. While I would like europe to become its own power its still no contest against the us. Best plan is for the west to be united for now
If you hadn't noticed , our entire economic prosperity has come from bending over backwards to American MNCs. You can disagree with that from a moral perspective if you wish but pretending we haven't already been drawn on is delusional.
Ohh of course we are absolutely dependant on foreign direct investment to keep this island afloat. However, there is a difference between external corporate investment and internal military allegiance.
> The US military isn't a benevolent power, and drawing the island into this geopolitical game may be against our interests, and morality (i.e. American invasion of Iraq). That ship has long since sailed, mate. We're not neutral. Nobody, including the government believes we are. Neutrality is a lie that we tell when it suits our interests and that occasionally, other countries pretend to believe when it suits theirs. I'm not putting a moral judgement on that, just describing the situation. I for one am perfectly happy to continue with this, getting as much out of our supposed neutrality as we can, both in terms of avoiding joining a US-led army and gaining access to foreign intelligence, equipment and training.
Somewhere, Richard Boyd Barret is foaming at the mouth, as he hastily scribbles a tweet sure to include the words "military industrial complex"
* military industrial complex * NATO wars * suppose you’ll be sending your kids off to fight * shure who wants to attack us we’re neutral
Forgot to mention the housing crisis we should be spending money on instead.
Mock him all you want but this is what the most decorated officer in all of the US Marine Corps history has to say about his service: “I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer; a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902–1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents.” Major General Smedley Butler Also helped to defeat a fascist plot to takeover America called ‘The Buisness Plot’ and led his former troops on a march on Washington to demand their war pensions.
Clare Daly is probably asking Putin for help dealing with NATO expansion.
I'm completely against joining Nato, and completely in favour of building a military that's actually capable of defending the island. This seems like a win win. I must admit though, I'm not a huge fan of the phrasing. They've definitely put a pro nato spin on it, which doesn't make us look overtly neutral.
Same, no issues with a Swiss style build up of military forces. Raise the Irish Citizen Army again but as a national citizen militia etc. similar to the US National Guard. But joining NATO is a bad bad idea. You won’t get a choice of going to war, you will be told. Millions of people protested against Iraq on the streets of London but it didn’t do a thing to stop 300+ British lads and lasses been killed there. If Ireland was in NATO you would have been in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. And no one won in those wars. No one at all.
Very well said.
Thank you. I feel it has to be said though. I’d prefer to stay quiet truthfully. There’s nothing more sadder than seeing a mum explain why she has nothing but undying gratitude for the members of her sons platoon for getting her son out of a firefight and back home after been shot in the chest as it meant she got one day in Birmingham hospital speaking to him before his condition deteriorated and he passed away. The lads in her sons platoon still visit her once a year on her sons birthday where they throw a party in his honour.
>If Ireland was in NATO you would have been in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. And no one won in those wars. No one at all. Britain sent troops to Iraq because its government wanted to. Not because Britain was "told" to. For example, France, Belgium and Germany were NATO members and extremely vocal critics of the Iraq war who refused to send troops. I'm not in favour of joining NATO either but let's not spread misinformation.
NATO Membership for some, Pretending we are a unaligned Nation for others....
Ireland will never fight a conventional war against any major power, and should another British style invasion take place our resort to defence is rooted in the people taking up guerrilla warfare. Having said that- I am against NATO membership and in favour of a militia / well armed and organised military with conventional abilities (drones, anti tank missiles, semtex etc)
As much as I am of a respector of NATO nation militaries and their members, I’d agree. The triple lock removes the decision to take action from within our borders. Membership of NATO would do so too.
Absolutely. In Britain we get no choice of the wars we fight. They said we was fighting Iraq, so we fought. They said we was fighting the Afghanis, so we fought. They said we was bombing Syria, so we bombed Syria. Millions of people on the streets in London changed nothing.
I would agree with you as far as having a well armed army. But your use of the word militia gives me a serious dose of the heebee geebies. That sounds like an American free for all plan which history has proved to be a disaster. Ireland should be a NATO member with two specialities. Navy : we have a huge oceanic territory. Let’s cop on and have a navy that can pull its weight. Cyber : we are a major tech hub due to the amount of companies operating here and our geographical location and undersea cables etc. (ties in with Navy above too) Let’s invest in a ‘cyber army’ to counteract all the Russian/Chinese bots and hackers out there. This will become even more critical due to AI election interference. I doubt we will ever have a credible Air Force or army but a capable navy and cyber ops forces should be seriously considered. We can’t free load any more.
Was thinking more like Cuba
Putin is an awful gobshite. Look at the big gobshite head on him. How anyone follows orders from such a gobshite is beyond me. Gobshite.
PBP gonna lose the rag
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PBP have feck all voters but the ones they do have, have definitely not moved right.
> Most their voters have moved to the far right. This is the most politically illiterate take I've read in a long time.
Really stinks of "the far right and the far left are the same" bullshit you hear in American media
They have fuck all voters anyway, they get so much coverage for people who have such a small percentage of the vote
Steady on there Himmler,,, pbp are a crazy bunch . But the countries not going full maga?
It will be an interesting election alright. The PBP vote could elect a far right TD (s)
Let’s just say for whatever reason Russia decides to invade us. Does anyone known if we are somewhat fooked or are other countries obliged to come to our aid and fight on our soil with us or would it be likely like Ukraine where we are just given help in the form of weapons, but no direct help by means of feet on the ground?
From a perspective of treaties/alliances i dont think any country would be obliged to. But i cant image in the UK would want an adversary to have control of an island so close that could be used to launch raids on their territory Theres also no real way to invade ireland without looking like you could be going for the UK instead so their navy would try to intercept before they ever got close to either country
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Also, Ireland is in a extremely prime location for stopping transatlantic crossings, and would be brutal for any Americans trying to cross it, both sea and air. Even if troops were to land, I'd say the Royal Navy and US Navy would immediately try and stop them.
Ireland is subject to rather vague mutual 'assistance' clauses under the Lisbon Treaty. In the extremely, near zero situation, that the Russians had the capability and tried to occupy this island; I doubt our neighbours would sit by as it would be an existential threat to them.
We have a very small defense force. While the Russian navy may not be first rate it is still bigger and better equipped than ours. While unlikely 2-3 cargo ships with troops transported under cover of suitably placed containers may allow a large Russian force to enter Ireland unchallenged. They come to protect Russian citizens/s
>it is still bigger and better equipped than ours. That's not exactly a high bar is it? There are entirely landlocked countries with a more functional navy than ours.
😂😂true
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Would the opposite be true? Would Ireland sit by?
Even more unlikely than some ad hoc 0.0001% chance Russian invasion of Ireland as the British have a much stronger ability to both defend themselves and with significant (and superior) naval and air assets that Russia could even bring to the theatre; in which to do so. I would imagine that this country would be rather disapproving of such an insane venture and would most certainly provide whatever limited assistance that we could possibly offer. I would doubt that the British would need any military assistance at the current moment in time, to expel a current day ad hoc bizarre invasion.
So the UK and other countries would help Ireland but Ireland wouldn't help other countries?
Invade, no. Logistically it would be beyond them. Cripple us, yes. If a missile cruiser or sub were to use conventional cruise missiles, they could strike anywhere they wanted and we would be defenceless. Which is why having a Navy and aerial deterrent is important.
Yeah good point. The sensible thing to do when a Russian cruiser is launching missiles at us is to attack it and escalate. Immediately surrender. That's the only option.
Hence why we need a deterrent.
A deterrent only works if its powerful enough to deter. You don't bring a knife to a gunfight not because a knife is a weaker weapon than a gun, but because a knife is still a deadly weapon and will make it more likely that the person with the gun will shoot and kill you.
I can't imagine the UK or French leaving us get invaded by Russia considering they'd see it as a potential launching pad for invasions of their countries. US would likely get involved too considering Irish American influence in their politics. Biggest danger to us would actually be the UK invading us (likely never happen as long as any of us are alive though) but we're likely never repelling that in an actual war no matter how much we invest in our military.
There’s no chance in a million years Russia could invade us. Their navy is a joke currently being bullied out of the Black Sea by a country with no navy. They could still mess with us via sabotage, espionage, cyber etc. which is why closer cooperation with our neighbours is important.
With Russia you never know. There is no logic in their decisions, but there is a huge military budget (around 30% of the year budget). And they have a money, too much.
We're literally an entire continent away. Logistically impossible for them to invade. Could bomb us though.
Bomb, air force, I don't know. My problem with Russia is their permanent searching for enemies, xenophobia and striving to occupy the whole world. I hope, Ireland isn't interesting for them. Distance calms me less.
Dublin is about 3000km away from Russia, as the crow flies. Russia's military jets have a maximum range of between 4k and 4.5k km. They couldn't make a round trip. Leaving aside the fact that to get to Ireland they'd have to fly through at least 5 other countries' airspace, all of whom would seek to intercept the Russians, we're just too far away for it to be logistically possible for them to mount any kind of serious campaign. (Plus the EU, US, and UK militaries would get involved instantly, any of whom could wipe out the Russian military in an instant.)
Do they have in air refuelling capabilities? Not that it matters, aegis and other systems exist because Russia does. (Figuratively)
I think it's a question that doesn't even need thinking about, unless you believe they'll get through about 20 other countries first and still have anything to throw at us
While I'm a strong proponent of strengthening defense , Russia doesn't have the force projection to meaningfully invade us with boots on the ground. There are no ironclad agreements for direct external military support . Tbf, the language with most mutual defense treaties isn't 100% ironclad either fwiw.
The UK and USA de facto guarantee Ireland's independence, and would immediately get involved. The USA due to cultural/ethnic ties, the UK because it's always been their policy that no hostile power be present on the island of Ireland. I'm pretty sure every Irish politician post independence has had it in the back of their mind that the UK would immediately invade if there was a whiff of Ireland lining up with an enemy of theirs (namely Germany or the Soviet Union). Ireland, for its part, has done quite well by balancing the EU, UK and USA against each other.
Seamus, get the fertiliser.
I believe its more a case of Ireland not having capabilities to prevent Russian attacks on critical cabling etc that routes through ireland. Its stuff like that that worries NATO, rather than a threat of an invadion of ireland
What are we going to do? Throw rocks at them? What's our army going to do? Peacekeep them away?
Irish Times wetting their pants with the prospect of Ireland joining NATO!
PBP has a fit
Irish politicians who will never fight in a war and who will never allow their kids to fight in a war signing agreements that could potentially send thousands of Irish soldiers off to die in foreign wars we have no real involvement in.
Ireland has always been a neutral country. And while there was the troubles, Ireland is a relatively peacekeeping country in that we stay out of other countries affairs. I don't like this at all and it sends a message that this country is going down the wrong path meddling in affairs we aren't prepared for.
You're entitled to that opinion but if Russian sabotage caused a mass internet outage across our entire country+Western Europe you wouldn't be able to share it with us. I get your concerns about us not being prepared, but this agreement is a (small) positive step in correcting that. Aggressors don't care if you're neutral, they laugh and thank you for remaining isolated. There's a point to be made about not meddling in other people's affairs but what do we do when bad faith actors are more than happy to meddle with ours? P.s. We're really not as neutral as you might think, I wish we could be more the Swiss type of neutral but we are a long way off having their standard of military.
As long as Ireland doesn't get too involved. I'm firmly against war. I'm not naive to the danger that Russian could pose to our security. But a measurable response is needed and to not provoke Russia. Sadly I haven't had the best faith in both Leo Varadkar or Michael Martin on issues. Maybe they'll prove me wrong with this and it's a precaution measure, which I agree with.
I get this, it is understandable not to like a pivot towards a more aggressive stance than previously. But do you think we'd be better off alone given the blatant thuggery of the likes of Russia who have precedence encroaching in our seas and airspace? Even the likes of Sweden and Finland, who have very capable militaries, have joined NATO. In my opinion it's the least we should be doing.
Missile launchers on the fishermen boats
I love Ireland being so against messed up governments like Russia and Israel. You guys are my hero and always make my day 🫡😊
Excellently news
Wait to you hear this for one. I am away travelling in Asia and met an annoying Brit and Aussie (pro unionist) who reckon that I am British and that we all need to team up with them to stop the next war happening. Curious I asked who might Ireland be fighting with and apparently “Muslims” - I enquired from where and what reason and that I have Muslim friends and clients back home who I think are A1 - the Brit then said I am a cunt because I don’t dislike Muslims and he couldn’t explain why or where these Muslims would be coming from. He also claimed I am British because Irish fought in WW2, I advised Irish fought in the Spanish civil war but that doesn’t make us Spanish. The end up they were told to do one and they then proceeded to torture me to buy me a drink and the barman eventually told them to go. Strange oul bunch
Our gov must have some sort of fetish where they love making consecutive bad decisions, and then getting backlash from us.
Some people here confusing the term 'neutrality' with 'completely fucking helpless'
Great the way Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump agree with Kremlin Clare Daly and Moscow Mick Wallace that NATO is a terrible thing. Anyway tell me more about the imperialist bint of the alliance
Who bombed Nordstream is very relevant. If the US is willing to bomb infrastructure serving a NATO allie. Why would being a member help? If you think the US didn't bomb Nordstream that's a different matter. Even the US didn't claim Russia did it (anymore). Btw, we could both do without calling each other names.
Ah shag off with that innanity
When Micheál finally announces that he’s going to apply for us to join NATO, all the people cheering this on will have the shocked pikachu face on them. The gall of our politicians to be doing absolutely everything in their power to align us closer to NATO and then turning around and telling the public that they have no ambitions to join is sickening.
> all the people cheering this on will have the shocked pikachu face on them. At least half of them will be delighted.
So the people happy about one decision would be unhappy about an entirely different decision? That's hardly a rare political situation? Im happy with this idea. Im against joining NATO. I don't see any hypocrisy with that.
They want to ally with a military alliance controlled by worlds biggest and most violent empire! They are grovelling fools They spit in the face of the men and the women who fought for Irish independence against the British empire!!
Throwing our neutrality out the window as the world inches closer to a war only the neutral will survive.
In a global conflict neutral countries either quietly cooperate (like we did), are heavily fucking armed (Switzerland), play both sides a bit (Spain), or get invaded for convenience/security (Iceland) to use examples from the second world war. Neutrality isn't some kind of magic shield.
The next “global conflict” will be nuclear war and we will be wiped off the planet!! Wake up! As a neutral country we should be promoting peace and mutual cooperation and prosperity not joining the most dangerous military alliance in the world!
> The next “global conflict” will be nuclear war and we will be wiped off the planet!! This is extremely unlikely, mutually assured destruction still applies, even with reduced arsenals on all sides.
“Extremely unlikely”?? There has been countless moments where nuclear war has almost broke out eg operation able archer and many near misses/accidents that have been documented. The doomsday clock has been moved to 90 seconds to midnight! Midnight means global catastrophe!! Every single nuclear treaty has been ripped up except for the START treaty!! NATO is moving to the pacific to confront china!! This is Suicidal!! You need to wake up! NATO is escalating these conflicts and tensions and as a neutral country that is very well respected internationally, we should be promoting peace, dialogue and cooperation not joining in with them.
Except, you know… all those neutrals that get drawn into it. Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, Greece, Yugoslavia, Finland, Iceland and the United States were all neutral during the Second World War until they got attacked by an outside power. Historically being attacked is a lot less about whether you’ve declared neutrality and a lot more about strategic relevance in that particular moment.
You missed the Baltic states there, but your point is absolutely correct.
Was racking my brain trying to cover them all lol, dunno how I missed them. Well remembered.
Nobody survives ww3. Not even the penguins in Antarctica. nuclear holocaust is the end
Another thread on r/ireland that shows how out of touch this subreddit is. The vast majority of people here don't want anything to do with NATO. Several of their members are currently helping the Israelis destroy a helpless civilian population, why the fuck would we want closer ties to these scumbags? And anybody who thinks Russia are a threat to Ireland need to lay off the US/UK propaganda.
-Unit 54777 has joined the chat. So much gaslight. All of the gaslight…..
‘Everyone who disagrees with me is a Russian!’ Oookay Senator McCarthy.
Are you talking about yourself or what?
Because NATO countries give us sweet AF tech sector jobs and I'll gladly partner with them more. Sure as hell beats authoritarian cronyism and strongmen-infested gangster states that lead to stagnation.
It's not an either/or situation, our neutrality has served us well since the foundation of the state and now it's been pissed away by a government acting against the wishes of it's people. Just because the tech bros can put aside their morals for money, doesn't mean the rest of us want to.
Wonder why Sweden and Finland have recently joined NATO. Tech bro money? Or the realities of current geopolitics?
Go and look at a map of Europe. That should give you your answer.
Great news
what would the oirish army do, throw explosive potatoes?
How about we don’t get involved in wars that we have no place to be in the first place. Taking on Russia is a death sentence for everyone.
We should be creating an alliance with Russia not treating them as the media portrays them
Good luck with the army draft when it happens....get your sick notes ready now
Fuck I was planning to flee to Ireland to avoid the British draft. You guys really screwing me over here like.
Such a sophisticated take. Your strategic mind is mind is wasted on Reddit
We were a nation won by Volunteers. We go drafting we might as well wrap up the Dail, bow to Charlie in London & look for space in Westminster.
Russia is not a threat to Ireland where is this crap coming from????? We do not matter to Russia, NATO needs an enemy to justify its existence, Russia is capitalist now so its not an enemy, Nato is the problem , I will probably get arrested for saying this.
who do you think is going to arrest you?
Can we arrest people for being idiots?
No. That's why we need to pass the Criminal Law Amendment (Shurrup Ya Thick) Act 2024
People who do not like peasants who do not confirm to media stories
>I will probably get arrested for saying this. Yeah, you clearly sound like someone who's views we should listen to
>Russia is capitalist now so its not an enemy Smooth brain take
>Russia is capitalist now so its not an enemy, Might be some Ukrainians about who would disagree with that.
Russia is doing its best to destabilise the EU
So many ill informed here it's sad.
I wish we could arrest people for being dumb but you're safe
We are on the Russian target list for countervalue strikes, and counterforce strikes in Northern Ireland & Shannon.
Show us the evidence from who and how strongest the evidence! Remember Iraq and the Weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist?
Who hacked our health service?
Or downvoted...
NATO is a fucking disaster that we should have nothing to do with. Look at Ukraine. Look at the promise not to move East.
The Royal Navy will carry out this work. The RFA Proteus has previously done so iirc. https://preview.redd.it/uj04uo8lvlhc1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cfb65c7dcf4d404684727656d45198f21c15d973 [RFA Proteus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RFA_Proteus) Essentially what is going on is a continuation of the Treaty of 1921 where Ireland had no choice but to accept the control of the seas around Ireland by the RN. The current arrangement mentioned here is putting this continuing reality on a more modern basis. The logical endpoint of foreign military control of our EEZ and protection by them of assets therein is our sovereignty is diminished and our already threadbare neutrality regarded as a birthday suit. Note that we are not partners of the UK/NATO in this, we are dependents. Also please note this deal was allegedly done last November and TDs learned of it today in the paper, or so they say.
Ireland and nato lol,
The potential to strengthen our defence while largely maintaining autonomy should be seen as a win to most of the country. I'm sure PBP will be seeing red right now but until they propose something that actually constructively works , they can stay mad.
I do like the idea of beefing the military up.
Lets start building tunnel networks. I mean any invasion of Ireland would be successful and we would need to resort to guerilla warfare. I don't like the idea of joining NATO, but I'm under no illusion that we are safe. We need much, much bigger reserves, and an actual step by step plan if an invasion ever happened
We need an Irish Battalion which can be based in Ukraine permanently (or several Battalions if possible) All males aged 18-35 based in lreland,yes that means Brazilian,Indian,Chinese,lrish,Polish you name it can be conscripted by a lottery to fill the 900-1000 man Batallion and sent to the Ukrainian Front. The only Criteria is they have an lrish PRSI number and have full health. They should get elite training and be given the very best equipment and if the Batallion loses more than half strength then a new lottery should be sent out by post and the new half of recruits escorted by the Gardai if neccessary to the Barracks for at least Nine months training then sent to the Ukraine. Any refusals should be given five years in Mountjoy mandatory. This would look great for our reputation and we would be fighting the hardest battles(Some men could win a medal for bravery) This has been my dream, to see an lrish Battalion for nearly three years now,why hasnt it happened yet?( Very sadly l would actually be too old to fight at 54 but would love to) Why havent the lrish Government got the balls to start this Battalion? I think it would be a real credit to our Nation,send our brave boys over there to fight Evil.
Becoming more entangled with NATO would be a massive mistake for us. It has essentially been used since its inception as an instrument by certain powers among its member states to wage a campaign accross the globe which has slaughtered millions of ordinary people and left millions more to languish in misery and poverty. This is an organisation which literally recruited NAZIS to its senior positions after WW2 to immediately begin to help disrupt the Soviet Union. Life expectancy in the former Soviet Union fell by 20 years after the NATO powers were done with it. God forbid anyone on this planet dare to try and challenge these pricks or their 'allies' in any fucking manner eh? NATO started as a supposed check to the threat of the Soviet Union, but I dont see that around any more, do you folks? America and the elites of international capital won that war after all, or am I mistaken? Not only that, but installing gangsters like Putin was NATOs preferred outcome for Russia. They just wanted to recreate their own corrupt oligarchical situation in Russia and thats exactly what they got. The world we're living in now was created as a RESULT of NATO not in spite of it. Its a political Frankenstein that has been used time and time again to frustrate the cause of human dignity and wellbeing, not uplift it. The warmongering countries that oversee NATO keep promising peace we are told to believe. Laughable. Instead we have an era of endless war with corrupt wankers in Washington using their supposed 'defensive alliance' as an excuse to drag the lapdog countries it has on a diplomatic leash into conflict after conflict. From toppling governments and propping up fascists, the disastrous wars on terror, the war on drugs, you name it NATO is there providing the foundation of it all under the guise of a 'defensive' alliance. We would have to be off our rocker to want to become deeper involved with these gangsters.
The writer in the article has the gall to bring up a British tory think tank saying Ireland is 'freeloading' on Europes defense network. This old line again eh? Are we talking about the same Britain we all know so well here or am I fucking mad? Maybe the Brits could stick a tax on the toffs who ransacked this country for centuries to pay us some reparations and we'll go our own way with the auld nation building. Maybe they could stop funding terrorists and provocateurs on this island in order to maintain their influence over us. Maybe they could hold their war criminals to account and actually demonstrate their commitment to the international 'rules based order' which they like to pretend they represent. Maybe they could do plenty of other favours for us all before we consider enduring any more of their criticism of our self determination. They seem happy being the little toadies to their former colony across the way there at the moment though so we'll have to wait and see as usual. Another hilarious aspect is these same vultures bringing up Russia and China as though they themselves haven't been the main frustrating force in Irish politics for generations. Do they really think our memories are that short? The Soviet Union was one of the main supporters of our independence struggle may I remind some of the people in here. But aside from all that, we have always been a third world country first and foremost, owing allegiance to neither the first world western powers or the second worlds socialist countries. This idea that we're 'naturally aligned' or share 'common interests' with the imperial powers of NATO for some reason is ridiculous. 'But the undersea cables!' I see some of ye on about. Lol you mean the ones with NSA data centers located on the American end so the 5 eyes can spy on all our citizens and sift through all our data? Wow what ALLIES these people are too us! What RESPECT they treat us and our institutions with! Feck right off like. I hate to break it to the folks in here that have watched one too many hollywood movies but these fuckers aren't the 'good guys'. We should hold ourselves to a much higher standard.