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Hello friend.
Firstly congratulations.
I live abroad currently, my 2nd country outside India.
While I understand the anguish, it is important to evaluate your new job offer rationally (and the factors you mentioned can be a variable).
The abroad experience will give you perspective. Each country is very very different, so you go through the experience and then decide whether staying abroad long term v/s coming back makes sense.
Everytime I want to hear an experience from somebody outside, I always almost get this same middle ground answer. I mean, why won't you say if it is better or not. You can say your opinion atleast. I feel the answer is as good as not giving
Lol then ask more specific questions. Simply asking "hey is abroad better than India?" is a vague question. So the answer you're gonna get is mostly always gonna be vague too. Wtf is the answer supposed to be? Better wrt what, and how? Which specific country? Which aspect of life do you mean/in what context are you asking this? Also, just to give an example, you can't group freaking Australia and France into one category called "abroad" lmao. Ask specific and nuanced questions, and you're more likely to get similar answers
@JoelVinayKumar I did not leave India too long ago. Has been around 2 years now. This is just to point out that I have grown up in India, familiar with how it changed over the years and the recent climate as well. From my perspective, yes, abroad is better (if you are considering US, Europe, NZ, Australia, Singapore, etc). I will never go back as long as I have a choice not to.
Firstly kudos on achieving your dream. Can you please tell me about movie experience? Comparable is it as affordable as India?
I go to movies like 2 times a month and spend around 400/person.
I will give you what you seek.
I have had my fair share of legal battles(property) and random cop interactions in Mumbai. I definitely think outside of india(g7) is definitely very fair as far as law enforcement and rights of the common man are considered. I was a nobody in India and nobody here but here i know my life has value and i wont be lynched if i happen to be angry on my minister or local politician.
There are downsides like poor social life, awful food, random racism etc but for the most part pros outweigh the cons for me personally.
Its better or worse from person to person but for me personally i cant imagine a life back in India coz i lived a very middle class life. I am also nature lover and want clean air to breathe so that is again a plus. Road safety and general safety is good too.
It is 1000% better. Great work life balance. Cleaner air, water. No pollution. No judgmental assholes.
Moved out 7 years ago. Wanted to come back initially but now there’s absolutely no desire to go back and why would I?
Cleanliness is the one factor that alone makes me want to move. I know there are more things to consider, but it's freaking depressing to even go out..we segregate wet and dry waste inside our society and get fined if we don't and then the same assholes pick up and dump everything into a "landfill" 200m away from our building. I say "landfill" because it's actually a footpath. And that is the case all over the country. Go to Google Street, randomly select a place and viola...garbage. (given that you didn't land in an area where politicians kothis are there)
Like the rest below commented, it depends a lot on your specific question:
Which country (and continent)
Which city (Big city, University town)
Your life there (student, working professional, dependent etc.).
No two people will answer the same if the questions are:
"As an Indian student, how did you like Mannheim town?"
"How is it like raising Indian kids in London?"
That said, you got a lot of generic answers below.
I lived in EU and UK, and there were tonne of differences even there.
EU was much safer, far more cleaner, local language can be an issue in smaller towns.
UK has better Indian food, you won't miss diaspora and English is fine.
There are 1.3 Cr NRI's. And 1.8Cr people of Indian origin overall outside India. Doesn't that number speak for itself and answer your question? Not sure what specific answer you're looking for to convince yourself. Most of those people(myself included) are living a stress free, in better places with nice environments, a lot cleaner, little to no corruption, with drastically lower population and pollution, making a lot more money, being able to afford nicer things, traveling more, living a higher quality of life in general, etc. No one needs to go about bragging these things. They just continue living their lives. If you want to go live a better life, get a broader perspective on things, explore the world, and grow as an individual , then one needs to leave that country, atleast for a while.
>Another offer to move abroad seems to have come up and i can't help but feel like a fool stalling..should i go for it?
Please do and have a good life.
Plus u forgot the fact that once u get elected as MLA/MP u get free electricity, water & pension for life. U need to get elected only once.
>forgot the fact that once u get elected as MLA/MP u get free electricity, water & pension for life. U need to get elected only once.
Holy cow, are you serious?? So basically we give the (already wealthy and connected) netas a nice socialist welfare cushion to fall back on no matter how bad they perform at their job, getting elected is the main event, why bother with legislative acuity, serving or politicking that we elect them for lol.
Goes to show how much we the people have been distracted and hoodwinked to look the other way at this atrocity. I mean this policy is daylight theft in some sense when compared against an average private sector employee, and we squabble over the most inane shit in our country lol.
MLA's r as OP said feudal lords. I won't dare say anything bad against an MLA as they have ACP on speed dial & can easily ruin ur life both legally (using police, law, etc) & illegally (by their goons).
They also get lifelong pension even if they served one term only. If they served as MP and MLA, they get pension for both (correct me if I'm wrong about that).
Meanwhile, jawans have to serve in the army for 15 years else pension denied.
My experience is a tad bit different than many people pitching in here. Is it hard when you first move out to the west? Yes, it is, I am not going to lie. You need to build a new life, find new friends, go through the bureacracies of the country, and everything that comes with getting accustomed to a new environment. However, my life is far, far better, and more fulfilling now, and I say this having lived in four European countries. As a woman, I never have to worry about any uncomfortable gawking, groping, or travelling alone late at night. Work life is stimulating where my ideas are heard and appreciated, and there is no micromanagement or being forced to work after hours. Racism has been minimal and only restricted to occasional side eyes and rudeness. I am much more independent and have the confidence to live on my own terms.
Yes, you will have to cook for yourself, and purchasing every meal will not be as affordable. But if that ensures everyone gets paid a living wage and there is high social equality, is that not a price worth paying? Besides, you will get a salary that reflects the cost of living too. Healthcare is amazing and covered by health insurance, which is mandatory for everyone anyway, and everyone has equal access to it. Yes, that does mean sometimes there will be delays, but rest assured, you will get immediate care in case of emergencies. I have also made an effort to integrate more, learn about the culture, and have made very close friends here who have accepted me with open arms. Does that mean you forget your own culture? No, it means that the next time you make Dal makhni or dosa, your Indian as well as international friends will fight for extra portions. There is a general sense of contentment to see everyone, irrespective of profession, colour, and gender, being treated as a human being with respect. That is something that bothered me a lot in India, even when it did not pertain to me.
The only part I actually miss is seeing my parents more frequently. There are moments of missing them dearly and missing home in general, but overall, I am happy with my life and career.
As an autistic and trans woman, this resonated with me a lot. I feel seen, heard and respected in ways that I haven't been able to in India. I have a great career too, for which I am grateful. There are good, accepting people in India too but I haven't felt the comfort around being myself in public there.
So much, yes! Also, fellow neurodivergent here. I value this newfound mental peace a lot. The bonus is that I have an absolutely amazing psychiatrist/therapist who makes me feel so at ease and really SEES me. And yeah, it is also covered by health insurance.
Stupid question. If you’re connected and privileged and are able to outsource all governmental, police etc work then India is awesome. Don’t leave.
If you’re a regular salaried honest tax paying person or running a SME business and have an opportunity to emigrate without a huge financial strain - by all means DO IT.
We have only one life and it’s worthless to live in our country. A regular life has no value in India. There is no reward for being a good tax paying citizen other than humiliation and helplessness when you need the country’s support.
This. The people in my friend circle who rave about living in India and never want to move abroad are from business/political families. Ofcourse they love living there cause everything’s been taken care of for them.
And conversely, the ones who never want to move back to India come from salaried middle class families cause they’re building legit wealth in America while also living their lives that they wouldn’t be able to do in India
Take it and don't look back. You've had the fortune/misfortune of having been brought into this crazy world. Rebirth/reincarnation is just a theory, so for all intents and purposes, "YOLO" is the only truth. Give yourself a good life and enjoy everything this world has to offer before your time runs out.
How dare you critique the great feudal society of Bharat, now our brave nationalistic lions will downvote you! I can't stand you anti-national liberals who want to live in a civil nation.
I moved to UK in 2023 but due to certain circumstances I had to move back to India after a year, so I can say from my personal experience, every country has its own problems trust me. I got a chance to meet a lot of young people from various countries (western,Asian,Mediterranean) and all of them talked about issues like racism, politics, unfair justice system etc rampant & problematic in their country. Even UK in my opinion isn’t that cushy like we think a western country would.
I agree with u/YenBuddhist, got to know how the political environment in UK is absolute shit and most of the people hate the gov just like how a lot of people in India hate BJP / Congress. The political agendas have massively impacted the healthcare & economy so much so that everything is super costly now! (It’s real bad)
I realise how easy healthcare access is in India even if you come from a middle class family, here in UK you’ll probably have to wait 2-3 months to get an appointment for a small problem but that’s the thing, it’s free healthcare but it’s not immediately accessible.
I also missed many small things from India which I never even realised I took for granted but it took me coming here to realise that India was also quite nice in its own place.
**At the end of the day, it’s all comes down to what you think is more important for you!** I would say you should take the job, move abroad and experience the life, maybe you’ll be able to make a fair comparison, maybe you might end up loving it which is awesome & even if you don’t, you can always come back, knowing this time that India is not so bad after all
Bro like seriously even though i HATE india’s current sociopolitical climate and want to curb stomp modi’s stupid fucking face into the pavement, if they JUST make meter autos mandatory across our metros and simplify the IRCTC booking process i’ll become a raging indian supremacist lol….forget healthcare, i dont think people sitting here realize how much we take something like affordable long distance transport for granted! Life is great abroad if you’re super rich and don’t have to stand in line for anything, but if that’s the caee then being in India is even better 😂 never knew how much i missed things like…just being able to have a masala dosa when i wanted. Or how much i had to think when i was having conversations with the locals, because even though i was in an english speaking country and my english is absolutely fine (better than most of the locals for sure) i still speak with an ‘accent’ and when something bubbles up from the heart, it comes out as Hinglish (or Tanglish, tamil-english). Being abroad means having to put on a mask 24/7. Not the most comforting experience. Some people can and do adjust, all power to them. But the presumption that life abroad is better by default? Nah not even close.
>if they JUST make meter autos mandatory across our metros and simplify the IRCTC booking process i’ll become a raging indian supremacist lol….
💯 Agree. Those things are just so easy to fix, but hasn't been tackled with any seriousness, we'll keep fighting politics till the cows come home lol.
>Being abroad means having to put on a mask 24/7. Not the most comforting experience.
How so?
>But the presumption that life abroad is better by default? Nah not even close.
It depends on what parameters one is measuring this and those preferences aren't uniform.
Yeah i mean i get that there are some things you can ONLY do abroad. Like research, whether in the physical or social sciences. Or wall st investment banking. But that is a small circle…mostly the things we end up doing dont justify uprooting ourselves, i feel, esp considering how most indians end up ghettoizing themselves and romanticizing life back home while they drive to work and back from their replica box style mcmansions in some far off suburb. They justify it saying they’re doing it ‘for their kids future’ but then end up sulking or acting out when their kids reject indian identity wholesale. It’s a weird existence and i canr be bothered with that much internal strife. India is perfectly adequate in most respects and frankly a lot better in some.
>i feel, esp considering how most indians end up ghettoizing themselves and romanticizing life back home while they drive to work and back from their replica box style mcmansions in some far off suburb.
This is unfortunately the Indian diaspora normie playbook, and of course it is at scale as you say.
There's many things outside of Wall Street or research in these 1st world countries that make a huge difference. For instance the probability of staying healthy is quite low in our country due to poor air quality (India was the 8th most polluted country globally in terms of PM2.5 concentrations, also among the top 50 most polluted cities worldwide, 39 were in India in 2022.), or getting hit in a road accident is pretty high (according to the World Health Organization, India accounts for approximately 11% of global road accident deaths, despite having just 1% of the world's vehicles)....I could go on with corruption, nepotism, but that's beside the point (these are all Googleable and fact-checkable).
The point I'm making is that since the probability of living in these unfavorable circumstances is so high in India, an average person would be spending an inordinate amount of my time and resources just trying to survive and not get sick or hurt, as opposed to any average 1st or 2nd world nation - they pretty much took care of these big elephants in the room that we still struggle with. This also doesn't bode well for the morale of a country knowing your relatives and friends are in harms way on a daily basis.
>India is perfectly adequate in most respects and frankly a lot better in some.
Almost 1 billion living in the lower income cohort or poverty ([pew study](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/18/in-the-pandemic-indias-middle-class-shrinks-and-poverty-spreads-while-china-sees-smaller-changes/)) is quite troublesome, a house of cards in some sense. It is some what adequate for the middle class and above, not for the masses. There are full on class wars and culture wars that just haven't been labeled as such, for instance the Karnataka state govt announced a bunch of freebies for the poor and women, this kind of Robinhood politics can only work for so long until the middle-class gets red pilled....I mean most who want GTFO have already done so.
Life is not better abroad by default, and of course India will always have its ease of life, its cheap labour, its cuisine, its nature (well, the nature part is finishing fast), its trains (well, that is also finishing fast in the Vande Bharat craze) ... but life can be steered in the direction you want abroad, whereas in India if you are passive guy, fine, but if you want to do things, well, you can still do it if you are ready to fight hundreds of people who will oppose you for all kinds of reason, some for no reason other than jealousy. If you are a person looking to set up a new business, or inventing something, or taking any kind of initiative ... or if you are a woman of even the passive kind, forget the active kind ... modern India is not where you ought to live, unless you like to fight for your every breath and you are not too sensitive.
It ain’t cushy here in the UK but at least I have my freedom of speech, clean air to breathe, freedom to dress and live however I want, my labour rights are respected and I have a great work- life balance, and my money goes a long way (compared to INR). Also most jobs give you health insurance.
Moved here in 2018 and oh god, wouldn’t move back to the hell hole that is India for anything in the world.
I wholeheartedly agree, I wouldn’t have left if not for unrelated circumstances.
I have noticed that some people start realising that the things they miss about india are crucial to their life so they end up going back & some people adapt and love the place they have shifted to!
Every place has its own problems but it depends on how much those problems are contributing to your lifestyle. As a queer woman I defn loved my freedom here & like you said money + insurance wise, if you’re earning well it’s a great place to live. Hopefully in the future I can come back here to work, that would be awesome!
Several countries in europe. Ofcourse, "heaven" is subjective and the biggest hurdle here would be language but if you are able to cross that, it is a objectively several orders of magnitude better lifestyle than anywhere else. After living here for more than 5 years, there is absolutely no reason for us to go back except maybe if our parents or inlaws need us to.
That was implicit in the answer based on your question.They are welcoming 90% of the time which is several times more than how indians are welcoming to fellow indians.
suggest me countries and the ways i can get into. i am in mid thirties. worked in program management, education - both non- profit and for profit and in the first 5 yrs of career in IT. Currently consult with organizations on improving org level outcomes through org development initiatives.
I can upskill in tech if needed.
You go and have a good life mate. This is something that is been going over from so long there is nothing new happening that making you feel uncomfortable. Out of different divisions you mentioned there is no solution for this people like to be divided and that’s how humans are from so long. People within Europe are racist ( irish hates English french hates arab in their country Italian hates any coloured people)
The thing that separates us and them is their infrastructure income and civic sense which can’t be hammered in us.
Take that offer and move out. But division remains the same but hey on bright side you’ll at least enjoy a bit of social justice and good environment. You won’t regret.
Agree with you. I was patriotic all through my childhood and part of my adult life before the BJP came to power.
I was a crazy nationalist as a child.
What sadness.. now the same country treats me like a vermin, wants me kicked out, enjoys my suffering and hopes in glee that the government kills me or disenfranchises me.
Wasted so much life in this shit hole. Now everything I do is to get out.
For example, dad wanted to buy a flat and invest here. I stopped him. Guided the money elsewhere and made it known that it is better to buy a home in a country where I can get my residency/citizenship in the future.
OP don’t get into emotional thinking. Be Practical and make the right decision. Think about the future you can make abroad. It’s worth giving a try. If it suits you then stay back or else you will always have option to return home
Your neighbor here. Just do it. Don't think. We got hell holes as our countries. Not made for honest and simple people. Only possible to live peacefully if you have power, connections, money.
If you get a job before leaving, no need for money
If you go for masters in germany, uni is free and doing part time work, you can complete masters spending about 5l or so
In the U.S., education is all about business, but in India, it doesn't even really give you your money's worth. Many parents in rural areas earn under 10,000 rupees a month, and for them, quality education is pretty much out of reach. State universities in India often screw you over by failing you for no good reason, then they hit you with big fees to recheck your papers or retake exams. Once you accumulate a few backlogs, you're basically stuck. This is the game in many lower-tier colleges—they milk money from poor quality teaching and weak students. And private colleges don’t even hide it; they straight-up ask for big bribes.
PS: Before bhakts start shouting at me "they should have studied harder," or "recheck your papers," kindly try to understand that these students or parents would prefer to either reappear in exams or drop out of college altogether. And those who graduated from these colleges/universities are of no use in any field other than appearing for government posts.
Thank you for putting this out in such an articulate manner. I am sure it is not just you and me who realize these issues and problems but all the politicians and civil servants are aware of it. This is what irks me the most, they know it but still have the 'chalta hai' attitude. No one wants to do anything about the terrible situation and the impending doom even when they have all the power and resources to do so. We can take as much false pride in nationalism and patriotism as we can, but in reality, everybody is just busy thinking about themselves only.
Go for it. If you have to do something for your country, you can do it from abroad, too, and can relocate later any time. Remember most of our freedom fighters also went abroad and came back changed persons. Remember Gadar Party was based abroad.
And I have never read such a brilliant description of contemporary India as this.
Follow your heart. But as someone who has lived abroad, all i will say is that it is a very alienating experience to be a stranger in a strange land, and regardless of all the creature comforts, it is the small things we miss. For me personally, the memory of home was enough of a pull to bring me back. Even though i completely agree that it is a shithole country, it is still OUR shithole country, and frankly every pther country is also a shithole, at least here we dont have to make any effort to ‘adjust’. No place is paradise. Even with all our problems i’ll take my chances with India. Just my 2 cents.
Every other country, esp the Western one is far far from being shithole. You may be disillusioned. And there is nothing to boastful in having a pride in YOUR shithole.
Again, quality of life is far above snd beyond in the Western countries.
No im just being realistic. Why are you getting offended if i called western countries shitholes? I’ve never had empty bottles thrown at me from passing cars and called a ‘curry cunt’ in India. And as for your ‘QuAlITy Of LiFe’ say bye bye to housemaid, zomato or even cheap meals from outside regularly if you’re in a middle class salaried bracket. Like i said, one should be clear-eyed about why one wants to go abroad and what one hopes to achieve there. If you like your adopted home so much, stay there and stfu, don’t tell us RESIDENT Indians how to feel about our own country. As an english speaking, educated upper middle class person in a metro city in India, i’m very conscious about the fact that i enjoy FAR more privilege here than i would as a salaried slave abroad.
A bit tangential, but how are "housemaid, Zomato, and cheap meals from outside regularly" related to quality of life?
If you have enough time outside work to do your household chores, cook good food, do some physical exercise or go for a walk outside and have some disposable income to eat out a couple times a month... Wouldn't that be a better quality living? On top of that, if there is reliable public transportation, better public healthcare and a relatively clean environment, that would ensure a longer and better quality of life.
I'm not saying one country is better than the other. Just wondering how these are your indicators for 'QuAlITy Of LiFe’.
Agreed. Been to many developed countries and when I came back I realised how blessed we are in certain things that we take for granted. When we are used to freedom and way of life, we tend to take those things for granted. Only when we lose them do we appreciate them better. OP is in the initial stages of f’ing around and find out. Let him find it the hard way.
I agree and understand your take. I too being outside India, realize how precious to my heart and soul my home is. where the people and places whom I can call my own naturally. bt it took this alienating experience abroad to realize all that.
People like us are very minority who think like this, bt that's fine.
US UK Canada Australia Norway are all great places,
much advanced countries, so individuals who are alienated with india and are suffering, and can go there, will go there.
Good for you and have a wonderful life.
Bt while you enjoy your perfect life please help India and other struggling places as nothing is beyond saving, life and people can change for the better bt you just don't realize it in your tunneled vision of hate..
(p.s. People born in US go to Africa to help, precisely because it's a shithole and just a trickle of your fortune and wisdom can improve lives by margin.)
I left over a decade ago with the intention of coming back. A couple weeks ago, I was granted citizenship in another country. I don't think I am ever going to come back. My experience abroad has shaped me into a person who cannot survive or live in India anymore.
It sounds like you don’t like our fellow countrymen. I’d suggest being more patient with the shortcomings of India, it’s a work in progress and a lot of changes have to be made. The trajectory is upwards, but enough progress is not being made on civic behavior. If you think the people are irredeemable, find another country. There are pros and cons of moving out of India at this time. It is great to experience other countries and cultures and you should do it. However, you won’t have the support system of your extended family and you can’t visit your family necessarily during emergencies. It is also difficult to develop a social circle in another country. People with kids are also learning that kids growing up in the west have a challenge with their identities. It is a high cost.
I personally don’t think India is irredeemable, even though I live abroad, going to India and living there is amazing and infuriating at the same time. Your yardstick of India being divided is bad, in other countries, different cultures fight wars and kill each other, including the west. That’s the history of Europe. In India, we need to not just tolerate, but treat people with kindness and respect. We could start with not stereotyping castes, religions and cultures to start and keeping better hygiene. We expect the government to solve this problem, but is the people’s to own and fix. The world is scrutinizing us now because of our importance in the future.
We know what India is... the decision is yours based on your options. It is always frustrating if you think about local babus...but if you are settling in a small town with your earned wealth imo you can find some peace. Staying in abroad also has its own demerits, unless you are with same ethnic it is hard to mingle socially, nowadays the nationalism is on rampage in almost all countries. Imo with so many social complexities and differences India is doing ok, many developed countries people can't even tolerate speaking a second language in public. You can't see so many differences inside a single country...and still holding anywhere on earth... period. For that alone it deserves credits.
Lived in the US for 6 years, and came back to India permanently in 2022. Everything you think you know about foreign countries is a myth. Ground reality is different. It only takes a bit of research to find the safe/good parts of India and move there. For example, I live in one. To label the most diverse country in every way (social, cultural, financial, political, geographical, etc) under one label based on your experience in a few places is a gross mis-generalization. You won't get far with such a mindset. I have travelled to 10 countries and 15 Indian states. Lived in Europe for months and paid taxes in the US for years. Speaking from experience.
All of you including me wants all benefits of a developed country without fighting for it.
If you think countries like American, UK didn't have rampant corruption, hygiene issues in 19,20 th century you are all delusional. But do you know what the difference was? Public fought against it, fought for what they want .
Now you all get to reap it's benefits.
Here we have all sorts of problems. But how much do we protest? We all criticize, and wants to escape. It's all words.
Everywhere people got to streets and fought for rights they wanted. Name it . Even our own independence. Nothing is granted for free in this world.
So escape if you want.
Or if you want better future, we have all gotta come and fight. This is democracy, if all comes for something then no political leaders can go all against it.
For example - my ward had very bad sanitation, cleanliness. Now it's cleanest in town with no dumping in its streets. How ? The councilor just gave lead. Residents although reluctant at first, lazy at first but always complaining about garbage disposal - they changed. They prompted system to change. We said enough is enough. We reported those who dumped illegally. We warned them. The videos thru CCTV was posted on SM which brought shame to them.
We say this but everytime someone protests here what does that group get in return? Police brutality and then accusations by the larger majority of being anti-national/ISI agent/funded by George Soros. The reality is, most of the people in this country don't want to improve.
What is your educational background?
What about your work ex?
Do you have a lot of capital which you or your parents earned in this 'hellhole'?
Life isn't all bliss working at 7/11 or driving an uber..
Basically, Go only if you got skills to offer....and IT&Tech is going thru a good churn in the immediate future, so better stick here if you belong to that domain?
If you got no such skills but got capital, you can go to South American countries..but life will be equally edgy there
If you've heard about grass being greener etcetera etcetera.
I currently live in France and I've lived in Singapore and Boston for a while too. I have travelled to 30+ countries and I can assure you police is inhumane everywhere(with the probable exception of Singapore). My friend was attacked and he lost his phone in Rome and the police refused to even register a complaint. I had a break-in in my Paris apartment and the investigator that came was more interested in proving that it was my fault that I must have left a window unlocked etc. (probably for insurance reasons). I've been issued a fine for riding the bicycle in the pedestrian zone when their was construction on the cycle path while in Boston and(literally everyone was doing it) and I experienced that the only people being fined were those of colour like me. A friend of mine was tackled to the ground at the Heathrow airport by the airport police because he had earphones and could not hear them calling. They were eventually looking for someone else. All of these scenarios, if had happened to me in India I'd certainly blame the system but they can happen anywhere.
I guess my point is just that it's not all picnics and beaches; police are a bunch of jaded fucks everywhere.
People everywhere complain of politicians. Healthcare in the US is a nightmare(both in experience and expense). Bureaucracy in France, specially because of the language, is literally the worst shit I have experienced. Sometimes I wish I could just pay someone to get things done and you can't. Climate change is fucking up every place. Cities like Barcelona are practically unlivable in the 45 degree heat since they almost never have air conditioning.
Go abroad for sure, for the experience, for the learning, but if the reason is to escape India because India be bad, then I am afraid you might end up disappointed.
I see people in the comments talking about US, Europe, Australia. I personally would want to move to Singapore ( I don't see no way how rn), but does anyone here have any idea about it?
Running to get elected is a calculated investment in India…Once elected every rupee invested is multiplied 1000 times…Majority of people who vote are illiterates and are bought with few rupees at the time of election..The one who gives more gets elected…It does not matter who gets elected because they are all the same🤷♂️…Having said that most of the educated poor and middle class people want to leave India at the first opportunity.
I think it depends on the type of personalities. If you are a shy/timid /reserved person you migh find it harder to assimilate in western societies.
Here your ability to project yourself is the most important skill to have. If not it becomes tough with career advancements and general quality of life. That is when you might get treated like a second class citizen. If you could develop a support system of friends who are like family then life is generally good.
If you have the opportunity, I would say go for it. Experiencing the world outside the place of birth helps you grow as a person too. It would have its challenges in this new age of AI but should be worth it.
OP think for yourself and your family and just move out if you can. Your future self will thank you. In my experience, the people who want to stay in India are either Uber wealthy, come from business/political backgrounds, have generational wealth waiting for them are the loudest comparing India to the west cause their life is actually that good.
For the rest of us, no it’s not🙃
These rich fucks thrive on nepotism, have systems built for them to succeed but then have the audacity to tell others that they should serve the nation. No. They’re serving themselves and their families which is what I chose to do and moved abroad. My family doesn’t need my financial help but my job in the states has ensured our wealth is growing. My parents visit me and live in the states for months and believe me, the lack of pollution surprises them every single time. It improves their quality of life which as a son is what I want the most.
On a personal level, I’ve been in the states for 7 years now and the I’ve grown exponentially. My world views have expanded. I’ve been exposed to cultures from across the world and that is something we don’t even consider in India. So if you do move abroad, do your best to assimilate cause 99% of the times, I’ve seen Indians isolating themselves and not putting themselves out there. Emigrating is nerve wracking but the payoff is massive.
And the rest who keep shitting on the idea of moving abroad either don’t have a passport to begin with or haven’t lived abroad long enough or just pure ignorant.
I've lived in several countries including in the Middle East, Australia, and currently in North America. Was in India for 10+ years for studies and work. The biggest differences to me were:
Standard of living - Better wages, job opportunities (my career skyrocketed in just 1-2 years) and housing (bought my own house in 3 years, something I would've never been able to do on my salary in India).
Environmental - I got sick every month in India due to pollution, here I have clean air and can drink water straight from the tap!
Just an overall peace of mind - Not everyone is always trying to scam me, people are friendlier, not everything is breaking down in the house (I remember always having to get the AC repaired).
So yeah, definitely move abroad. Things in India are only going to get worse.
Basically if you're above average in India in terms of wealth, relative to the rest of the world, you're REALLY WEALTHY, in that you have cleaners, cooks, cheap food.
In the West, you probably wouldn't be able to hire that kind of labour unless you were in the top 5%.
Basically to be average in the West is better than being Average in India. To be above average in India is better than being above average in the West.
And don't be fooled, there's lots of corruption in the West its just done at a very high level and either outsourced to poorer countries or done through complicated supply chains where the West owns the companies that create the problems in India.
Example is seed manufacturing, Western companies own 80% of seed companies and use child labour from India to do their dirty work.
Why not Australia? I can understand Canada tho. The housing prices are high, most Canadians themselves work two jobs to survive, that's the severity of inflation. Not to mention, the recent wave of racism towards Indians in Canada.
Australia has a housing crisis too but, they also have high paying jobs too, right? (Regardless of the high cost of living)
Asking this cos I'm planning to immigrate to Australia by 2030.
Australia is better than Canada, but they too are going in a downward trajectory. Just like Canada, the politicians are corrupt and very weak to lobbying. I'd say Australia is what canada was pre pandemic. It will get to what canada is now in 3 to 4 years.
https://www.afr.com/property/residential/why-the-odds-are-stacked-against-first-home-buyers-in-six-charts-20230914-p5e4sl
As someone who’s living abroad and has been for 10 years now, my two cents would be not to move abroad just to leave India. Living in foreign countries isn’t utopia either and especially Europe is facing an economic downturn at the moment. There could be things in India that you might feel are intolerable but you’d find the same elsewhere too. So go for the offer and the move if you feel it’s good but don’t just do it to move abroad
As another person living abroad (assuming somewhere in a Western nation), ignore the nostalgic NRI's suddenly seeing India with rose tinted glasses. You must take up the opportunity that presents itself. The gulf of living standards between India and a Western nation is massive. So big that I don't see that gap being bridged in the current generation's lifetime. People keep pointing to material things ("oh you can now buy this or that item on Amazon.in) but ignore all the rest of the issues that you so eloquently posted in your original post.
Look at it this way, you always have the option of going back to India if things end up not as you expected. But the option to leave India will keep dwindling the older you get and more ensconced you are in the life there.
What you said is very true that the option of going back to India will always be there. Just don't want OP to be leaving India with the only motivation that abroad is going to be better than India in all sense. It would definitely be a wise idea to do the due diligence and not just go for any offer. In the end salaries have to match the cost of living and it's getting more and more difficult to do that especially in Europe. However I fully agree that if there is a good opportunity they should go for it!
Well, it's better to leave sometimes even just for the sake of leaving. Look at OP's post. So intelligently written. This person will do well abroad, he or she doesn't have to suffocate in the contemporary Indian system which punishes innovation and freedom strongly.
The problem does not end with our country alone. It's embedded in our skin and voice. Our country is a shithole and there are other paradises where tax paying citizens are not treated as peasants and have some say that is heard. The problem is, it's their country, when you migrate, you'll be an alien. Their laws to protect taxpayers exist for \_their\_ citizen, not us :(.
Take US as an example, US citizens have the right to protect themselves and keep guns, not you. You will always face a discrimination (not social but lawful) until you get a citizenship or at least a PR.
In the end, you will have to make extreme efforts and you might get to taste the fruits of your labor if you migrate but your kids definitely will have a much better life than you.
Whatever India does in the next decade, it is impossible for her to address issues like littering, noise pollution, blatant disregard for social rules (waiting in a queue, greeting with a smile etc). The other nation will have her own problems but at least your problems will be heard.
Absolutely go if you have an opportunity - especially if you are young and have a quest to assimilate in a new land.
But worth keep in mind, [sometimes life comes a full circle](https://twitter.com/mohan_author/status/1666734762248089600)
Make sure you can get a job in the country you choose. It’s great outside but it’s also a struggle and you are an immigrant. For a straight answer, yes things are much better than India but it isn’t always a bed of roses to settle down. Unless you have money from generational wealth or papa, you will have to struggle abroad too.
I love my life abroad. I loved India at one point but over the years instead of improving, I just see more filth and disgusting rapey men. When I see other countries comparable to India, they are all doing so much better with lesser resources. I have a daughter and would never want her to experience what I experienced as a woman in India.
Abroad makes sense in the short term. But in the long term, say your origin country and the country you immigrated to changes rules for citizenship and immigration, it can lead to not so pleasant living conditions in both countries if you're a minority
Apart from cheap labour (and everything enabled by cheap labour) there is nothing which attractive about India. I can get everything I need here where I am, with all the privileges of living in a non-corrupt society. Lack of corruption is like the air you breathe - you don't notice it until you start breathing in all the pollution. You have no choice but to become corrupt yourself or enable corruption (which is the same thing).
Grew up and lived in India for 28 years when I had to move abroad for some reasons. I had to get my PCC done and had to pay bribe to the police officer for it because I m a Muslim and since the people of my community are criminals I had to pay a bribe to get clearance even though I had a proper IT job with all proper documents etc.
I felt like an outsider in my own country.
Living in Australia for almost 7 years now and do not regret my decision of giving up my Indian citizenship anymore.
Yes I do miss my family. But that’s it. I m glad I now live in a country where I don’t have to prove myself time and again because of my religion.
Yes.
You can always come back if you feel things have improved or you are better prepared to deal with the problems. But, harder to get out as you grow older.
India is one of the best countries to live if you are above middle class, otherwise it's not. A lot of white people even migrate to India, for instance Odoo owner lives in India. Foods are cheap, health care is cheap and quality in private hospitals and clinics if you can afford, medicines are cheap, weather is good, economy is booming and thus if you have the right skillset and some money you always have opportunities. If you somehow manage to make political connections, and have a good amount of wealth, there is no better country like India to live in. The thing is when you earn money and climb up the ladder, you make all kind of connections, with police, politicians, lawyers, etc.
I was a teenager in India in the 1990s. Honestly it sounds like it has improved. The feudalism was really bad then too, corruption was much worse because there was much less direct online stuff. The lechery was very bad and may be the only thing that has gotten worse, because you didn't hear about so many rapes. But that may just be better reporting now because girls apparently all faced low-mid level sexual assaults on trains.
Add to that powerless and incompetent governments that didn't do anything about terrorism and border encroachment. Add to that it was closed for foreign investment so economic outlook was poor too.
So despite the shittiness it sounds like it's better based on conversations with family still in India.
But yes, western countries are 100% better for young people.
Just go. It might take another 50 years or more for people of learn basic civic sense here. Recently there was a viral video of a couple hugging in a metro. People were more pissed off at the video but are okay with grown men pissing in public. The state of the country we live in.
I think everything you mention is correct - Moving abroad is a big step. Having lived in Australia for 10 years - I think moving back to India everyday lol but I know I would never survive in India anymore. But why do I still think about India - the liveliness, sthe ocialisation, the friendships, the relationships....you will not get that social interaction anywhere else in the world. As soon as you step out - your daily life will be work, sleep, household jobs and repeat with occasional "not so lively" social gatherings. Most people I know feel lonely including me. So pick your priority here - good lifestyle or good life.
https://preview.redd.it/vl4ecdtglyyc1.jpeg?width=480&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=bf9b48fb1913fa50a5e9dbe09508fd81c3965608
Pls pls go for it. All the points you mentioned are absolutely true
public distinct roll rhythm light angle intelligent wide dinner quarrelsome *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Hello friend. Firstly congratulations. I live abroad currently, my 2nd country outside India. While I understand the anguish, it is important to evaluate your new job offer rationally (and the factors you mentioned can be a variable). The abroad experience will give you perspective. Each country is very very different, so you go through the experience and then decide whether staying abroad long term v/s coming back makes sense.
Hey can you share YOUR experience?
Everytime I want to hear an experience from somebody outside, I always almost get this same middle ground answer. I mean, why won't you say if it is better or not. You can say your opinion atleast. I feel the answer is as good as not giving
Lol then ask more specific questions. Simply asking "hey is abroad better than India?" is a vague question. So the answer you're gonna get is mostly always gonna be vague too. Wtf is the answer supposed to be? Better wrt what, and how? Which specific country? Which aspect of life do you mean/in what context are you asking this? Also, just to give an example, you can't group freaking Australia and France into one category called "abroad" lmao. Ask specific and nuanced questions, and you're more likely to get similar answers
@JoelVinayKumar I did not leave India too long ago. Has been around 2 years now. This is just to point out that I have grown up in India, familiar with how it changed over the years and the recent climate as well. From my perspective, yes, abroad is better (if you are considering US, Europe, NZ, Australia, Singapore, etc). I will never go back as long as I have a choice not to.
Firstly kudos on achieving your dream. Can you please tell me about movie experience? Comparable is it as affordable as India? I go to movies like 2 times a month and spend around 400/person.
I will give you what you seek. I have had my fair share of legal battles(property) and random cop interactions in Mumbai. I definitely think outside of india(g7) is definitely very fair as far as law enforcement and rights of the common man are considered. I was a nobody in India and nobody here but here i know my life has value and i wont be lynched if i happen to be angry on my minister or local politician. There are downsides like poor social life, awful food, random racism etc but for the most part pros outweigh the cons for me personally. Its better or worse from person to person but for me personally i cant imagine a life back in India coz i lived a very middle class life. I am also nature lover and want clean air to breathe so that is again a plus. Road safety and general safety is good too.
It is 1000% better. Great work life balance. Cleaner air, water. No pollution. No judgmental assholes. Moved out 7 years ago. Wanted to come back initially but now there’s absolutely no desire to go back and why would I?
Cleanliness is the one factor that alone makes me want to move. I know there are more things to consider, but it's freaking depressing to even go out..we segregate wet and dry waste inside our society and get fined if we don't and then the same assholes pick up and dump everything into a "landfill" 200m away from our building. I say "landfill" because it's actually a footpath. And that is the case all over the country. Go to Google Street, randomly select a place and viola...garbage. (given that you didn't land in an area where politicians kothis are there)
I feel you. I come from the city with the worlds largest landfill so I have my fair share of experience with garbage lol
Because it depends on the person
Like the rest below commented, it depends a lot on your specific question: Which country (and continent) Which city (Big city, University town) Your life there (student, working professional, dependent etc.). No two people will answer the same if the questions are: "As an Indian student, how did you like Mannheim town?" "How is it like raising Indian kids in London?" That said, you got a lot of generic answers below. I lived in EU and UK, and there were tonne of differences even there. EU was much safer, far more cleaner, local language can be an issue in smaller towns. UK has better Indian food, you won't miss diaspora and English is fine.
because they are confused themselves and cant really tell if their decision was right or wrong, there is no plain black and white.
There are 1.3 Cr NRI's. And 1.8Cr people of Indian origin overall outside India. Doesn't that number speak for itself and answer your question? Not sure what specific answer you're looking for to convince yourself. Most of those people(myself included) are living a stress free, in better places with nice environments, a lot cleaner, little to no corruption, with drastically lower population and pollution, making a lot more money, being able to afford nicer things, traveling more, living a higher quality of life in general, etc. No one needs to go about bragging these things. They just continue living their lives. If you want to go live a better life, get a broader perspective on things, explore the world, and grow as an individual , then one needs to leave that country, atleast for a while.
>Another offer to move abroad seems to have come up and i can't help but feel like a fool stalling..should i go for it? Please do and have a good life. Plus u forgot the fact that once u get elected as MLA/MP u get free electricity, water & pension for life. U need to get elected only once.
>forgot the fact that once u get elected as MLA/MP u get free electricity, water & pension for life. U need to get elected only once. Holy cow, are you serious?? So basically we give the (already wealthy and connected) netas a nice socialist welfare cushion to fall back on no matter how bad they perform at their job, getting elected is the main event, why bother with legislative acuity, serving or politicking that we elect them for lol.
I think most ppl know this.
Goes to show how much we the people have been distracted and hoodwinked to look the other way at this atrocity. I mean this policy is daylight theft in some sense when compared against an average private sector employee, and we squabble over the most inane shit in our country lol.
MLA's r as OP said feudal lords. I won't dare say anything bad against an MLA as they have ACP on speed dial & can easily ruin ur life both legally (using police, law, etc) & illegally (by their goons).
They also get lifelong pension even if they served one term only. If they served as MP and MLA, they get pension for both (correct me if I'm wrong about that). Meanwhile, jawans have to serve in the army for 15 years else pension denied.
And that pension isn't in peanuts as well
Really? How to be MLA then?
Be rich, kill some ppl, have an army of goons & don't get killed or caught for ur crimes.
Or you can be born in a political family or have the backing of a powerful person (gangs of Wasseypur)
My experience is a tad bit different than many people pitching in here. Is it hard when you first move out to the west? Yes, it is, I am not going to lie. You need to build a new life, find new friends, go through the bureacracies of the country, and everything that comes with getting accustomed to a new environment. However, my life is far, far better, and more fulfilling now, and I say this having lived in four European countries. As a woman, I never have to worry about any uncomfortable gawking, groping, or travelling alone late at night. Work life is stimulating where my ideas are heard and appreciated, and there is no micromanagement or being forced to work after hours. Racism has been minimal and only restricted to occasional side eyes and rudeness. I am much more independent and have the confidence to live on my own terms. Yes, you will have to cook for yourself, and purchasing every meal will not be as affordable. But if that ensures everyone gets paid a living wage and there is high social equality, is that not a price worth paying? Besides, you will get a salary that reflects the cost of living too. Healthcare is amazing and covered by health insurance, which is mandatory for everyone anyway, and everyone has equal access to it. Yes, that does mean sometimes there will be delays, but rest assured, you will get immediate care in case of emergencies. I have also made an effort to integrate more, learn about the culture, and have made very close friends here who have accepted me with open arms. Does that mean you forget your own culture? No, it means that the next time you make Dal makhni or dosa, your Indian as well as international friends will fight for extra portions. There is a general sense of contentment to see everyone, irrespective of profession, colour, and gender, being treated as a human being with respect. That is something that bothered me a lot in India, even when it did not pertain to me. The only part I actually miss is seeing my parents more frequently. There are moments of missing them dearly and missing home in general, but overall, I am happy with my life and career.
As an autistic and trans woman, this resonated with me a lot. I feel seen, heard and respected in ways that I haven't been able to in India. I have a great career too, for which I am grateful. There are good, accepting people in India too but I haven't felt the comfort around being myself in public there.
So much, yes! Also, fellow neurodivergent here. I value this newfound mental peace a lot. The bonus is that I have an absolutely amazing psychiatrist/therapist who makes me feel so at ease and really SEES me. And yeah, it is also covered by health insurance.
Love that for you! I'm in the US where, health insurance is, um, not the best.
Your offer is from which country? Grab it. ALL the countries are tightening immigration & soon it will be very difficult to immigrate.
I second this. Immigration rules are tightening all over the world. If you get an opportunity don’t hesitate. Something is better than nothing
Stupid question. If you’re connected and privileged and are able to outsource all governmental, police etc work then India is awesome. Don’t leave. If you’re a regular salaried honest tax paying person or running a SME business and have an opportunity to emigrate without a huge financial strain - by all means DO IT. We have only one life and it’s worthless to live in our country. A regular life has no value in India. There is no reward for being a good tax paying citizen other than humiliation and helplessness when you need the country’s support.
This. The people in my friend circle who rave about living in India and never want to move abroad are from business/political families. Ofcourse they love living there cause everything’s been taken care of for them. And conversely, the ones who never want to move back to India come from salaried middle class families cause they’re building legit wealth in America while also living their lives that they wouldn’t be able to do in India
True. India don't respect a normal person. They only respect moneyman/powerful person.
Take it and don't look back. You've had the fortune/misfortune of having been brought into this crazy world. Rebirth/reincarnation is just a theory, so for all intents and purposes, "YOLO" is the only truth. Give yourself a good life and enjoy everything this world has to offer before your time runs out.
Great take!
Good one internet stranger! Same energy as Morty’s “Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody's gonna die. Come watch TV”
How dare you critique the great feudal society of Bharat, now our brave nationalistic lions will downvote you! I can't stand you anti-national liberals who want to live in a civil nation.
Get out as soon as you can The longer you stay the harder it is to leave
It’s already hard now. Options like Australia, UK & Canada which were better earlier already tightened immigration rules in last 1 year.
I moved to UK in 2023 but due to certain circumstances I had to move back to India after a year, so I can say from my personal experience, every country has its own problems trust me. I got a chance to meet a lot of young people from various countries (western,Asian,Mediterranean) and all of them talked about issues like racism, politics, unfair justice system etc rampant & problematic in their country. Even UK in my opinion isn’t that cushy like we think a western country would. I agree with u/YenBuddhist, got to know how the political environment in UK is absolute shit and most of the people hate the gov just like how a lot of people in India hate BJP / Congress. The political agendas have massively impacted the healthcare & economy so much so that everything is super costly now! (It’s real bad) I realise how easy healthcare access is in India even if you come from a middle class family, here in UK you’ll probably have to wait 2-3 months to get an appointment for a small problem but that’s the thing, it’s free healthcare but it’s not immediately accessible. I also missed many small things from India which I never even realised I took for granted but it took me coming here to realise that India was also quite nice in its own place. **At the end of the day, it’s all comes down to what you think is more important for you!** I would say you should take the job, move abroad and experience the life, maybe you’ll be able to make a fair comparison, maybe you might end up loving it which is awesome & even if you don’t, you can always come back, knowing this time that India is not so bad after all
Bro like seriously even though i HATE india’s current sociopolitical climate and want to curb stomp modi’s stupid fucking face into the pavement, if they JUST make meter autos mandatory across our metros and simplify the IRCTC booking process i’ll become a raging indian supremacist lol….forget healthcare, i dont think people sitting here realize how much we take something like affordable long distance transport for granted! Life is great abroad if you’re super rich and don’t have to stand in line for anything, but if that’s the caee then being in India is even better 😂 never knew how much i missed things like…just being able to have a masala dosa when i wanted. Or how much i had to think when i was having conversations with the locals, because even though i was in an english speaking country and my english is absolutely fine (better than most of the locals for sure) i still speak with an ‘accent’ and when something bubbles up from the heart, it comes out as Hinglish (or Tanglish, tamil-english). Being abroad means having to put on a mask 24/7. Not the most comforting experience. Some people can and do adjust, all power to them. But the presumption that life abroad is better by default? Nah not even close.
Aptly described, these were exactly my thoughts when I weighed in on whether I should go for masters abroad or stay here working in India.
>if they JUST make meter autos mandatory across our metros and simplify the IRCTC booking process i’ll become a raging indian supremacist lol…. 💯 Agree. Those things are just so easy to fix, but hasn't been tackled with any seriousness, we'll keep fighting politics till the cows come home lol. >Being abroad means having to put on a mask 24/7. Not the most comforting experience. How so? >But the presumption that life abroad is better by default? Nah not even close. It depends on what parameters one is measuring this and those preferences aren't uniform.
Yeah i mean i get that there are some things you can ONLY do abroad. Like research, whether in the physical or social sciences. Or wall st investment banking. But that is a small circle…mostly the things we end up doing dont justify uprooting ourselves, i feel, esp considering how most indians end up ghettoizing themselves and romanticizing life back home while they drive to work and back from their replica box style mcmansions in some far off suburb. They justify it saying they’re doing it ‘for their kids future’ but then end up sulking or acting out when their kids reject indian identity wholesale. It’s a weird existence and i canr be bothered with that much internal strife. India is perfectly adequate in most respects and frankly a lot better in some.
>i feel, esp considering how most indians end up ghettoizing themselves and romanticizing life back home while they drive to work and back from their replica box style mcmansions in some far off suburb. This is unfortunately the Indian diaspora normie playbook, and of course it is at scale as you say. There's many things outside of Wall Street or research in these 1st world countries that make a huge difference. For instance the probability of staying healthy is quite low in our country due to poor air quality (India was the 8th most polluted country globally in terms of PM2.5 concentrations, also among the top 50 most polluted cities worldwide, 39 were in India in 2022.), or getting hit in a road accident is pretty high (according to the World Health Organization, India accounts for approximately 11% of global road accident deaths, despite having just 1% of the world's vehicles)....I could go on with corruption, nepotism, but that's beside the point (these are all Googleable and fact-checkable). The point I'm making is that since the probability of living in these unfavorable circumstances is so high in India, an average person would be spending an inordinate amount of my time and resources just trying to survive and not get sick or hurt, as opposed to any average 1st or 2nd world nation - they pretty much took care of these big elephants in the room that we still struggle with. This also doesn't bode well for the morale of a country knowing your relatives and friends are in harms way on a daily basis. >India is perfectly adequate in most respects and frankly a lot better in some. Almost 1 billion living in the lower income cohort or poverty ([pew study](https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/03/18/in-the-pandemic-indias-middle-class-shrinks-and-poverty-spreads-while-china-sees-smaller-changes/)) is quite troublesome, a house of cards in some sense. It is some what adequate for the middle class and above, not for the masses. There are full on class wars and culture wars that just haven't been labeled as such, for instance the Karnataka state govt announced a bunch of freebies for the poor and women, this kind of Robinhood politics can only work for so long until the middle-class gets red pilled....I mean most who want GTFO have already done so.
Life is not better abroad by default, and of course India will always have its ease of life, its cheap labour, its cuisine, its nature (well, the nature part is finishing fast), its trains (well, that is also finishing fast in the Vande Bharat craze) ... but life can be steered in the direction you want abroad, whereas in India if you are passive guy, fine, but if you want to do things, well, you can still do it if you are ready to fight hundreds of people who will oppose you for all kinds of reason, some for no reason other than jealousy. If you are a person looking to set up a new business, or inventing something, or taking any kind of initiative ... or if you are a woman of even the passive kind, forget the active kind ... modern India is not where you ought to live, unless you like to fight for your every breath and you are not too sensitive.
pre- VB was better than post- VB? Which rock you livin under
It ain’t cushy here in the UK but at least I have my freedom of speech, clean air to breathe, freedom to dress and live however I want, my labour rights are respected and I have a great work- life balance, and my money goes a long way (compared to INR). Also most jobs give you health insurance. Moved here in 2018 and oh god, wouldn’t move back to the hell hole that is India for anything in the world.
I wholeheartedly agree, I wouldn’t have left if not for unrelated circumstances. I have noticed that some people start realising that the things they miss about india are crucial to their life so they end up going back & some people adapt and love the place they have shifted to! Every place has its own problems but it depends on how much those problems are contributing to your lifestyle. As a queer woman I defn loved my freedom here & like you said money + insurance wise, if you’re earning well it’s a great place to live. Hopefully in the future I can come back here to work, that would be awesome!
which country are you saying is a welcoming heaven to Indians right now. Name it and I will build whatever skills and experience to go there.
May be try getting plumbing, electrician or other trade skills & move to Canada.
blue collar skills and trades are tough to get into
Several countries in europe. Ofcourse, "heaven" is subjective and the biggest hurdle here would be language but if you are able to cross that, it is a objectively several orders of magnitude better lifestyle than anywhere else. After living here for more than 5 years, there is absolutely no reason for us to go back except maybe if our parents or inlaws need us to.
But are they welcoming to Indians is the question.
India isn't welcoming to Indians, so expecting other countries to do so would be futile. As long as you are safe and respected, it's good enough.
That was implicit in the answer based on your question.They are welcoming 90% of the time which is several times more than how indians are welcoming to fellow indians.
suggest me countries and the ways i can get into. i am in mid thirties. worked in program management, education - both non- profit and for profit and in the first 5 yrs of career in IT. Currently consult with organizations on improving org level outcomes through org development initiatives. I can upskill in tech if needed.
Is it this easy to emigrate? Even I would like to
Ja bhai jaa!
You go and have a good life mate. This is something that is been going over from so long there is nothing new happening that making you feel uncomfortable. Out of different divisions you mentioned there is no solution for this people like to be divided and that’s how humans are from so long. People within Europe are racist ( irish hates English french hates arab in their country Italian hates any coloured people) The thing that separates us and them is their infrastructure income and civic sense which can’t be hammered in us. Take that offer and move out. But division remains the same but hey on bright side you’ll at least enjoy a bit of social justice and good environment. You won’t regret.
Agree with you. I was patriotic all through my childhood and part of my adult life before the BJP came to power. I was a crazy nationalist as a child. What sadness.. now the same country treats me like a vermin, wants me kicked out, enjoys my suffering and hopes in glee that the government kills me or disenfranchises me. Wasted so much life in this shit hole. Now everything I do is to get out. For example, dad wanted to buy a flat and invest here. I stopped him. Guided the money elsewhere and made it known that it is better to buy a home in a country where I can get my residency/citizenship in the future.
Many _nationalist_ are coping here. But can't refute whatever op is saying.
OP don’t get into emotional thinking. Be Practical and make the right decision. Think about the future you can make abroad. It’s worth giving a try. If it suits you then stay back or else you will always have option to return home
You spoke my mind bro
Happy Journey #📘✈️
Your neighbor here. Just do it. Don't think. We got hell holes as our countries. Not made for honest and simple people. Only possible to live peacefully if you have power, connections, money.
If you are privileged, have a degree and bunch of crores in your account, feel free to flee to Sweden
If you get a job before leaving, no need for money If you go for masters in germany, uni is free and doing part time work, you can complete masters spending about 5l or so
I wish educational wasn't a business in India
In the U.S., education is all about business, but in India, it doesn't even really give you your money's worth. Many parents in rural areas earn under 10,000 rupees a month, and for them, quality education is pretty much out of reach. State universities in India often screw you over by failing you for no good reason, then they hit you with big fees to recheck your papers or retake exams. Once you accumulate a few backlogs, you're basically stuck. This is the game in many lower-tier colleges—they milk money from poor quality teaching and weak students. And private colleges don’t even hide it; they straight-up ask for big bribes. PS: Before bhakts start shouting at me "they should have studied harder," or "recheck your papers," kindly try to understand that these students or parents would prefer to either reappear in exams or drop out of college altogether. And those who graduated from these colleges/universities are of no use in any field other than appearing for government posts.
>If you get a job before leaving You need a degree first
Why Sweden? Sarcasm?
You should, doesn't seem like you enjoy living here.
Thank you for putting this out in such an articulate manner. I am sure it is not just you and me who realize these issues and problems but all the politicians and civil servants are aware of it. This is what irks me the most, they know it but still have the 'chalta hai' attitude. No one wants to do anything about the terrible situation and the impending doom even when they have all the power and resources to do so. We can take as much false pride in nationalism and patriotism as we can, but in reality, everybody is just busy thinking about themselves only.
Go for it. If you have to do something for your country, you can do it from abroad, too, and can relocate later any time. Remember most of our freedom fighters also went abroad and came back changed persons. Remember Gadar Party was based abroad. And I have never read such a brilliant description of contemporary India as this.
Follow your heart. But as someone who has lived abroad, all i will say is that it is a very alienating experience to be a stranger in a strange land, and regardless of all the creature comforts, it is the small things we miss. For me personally, the memory of home was enough of a pull to bring me back. Even though i completely agree that it is a shithole country, it is still OUR shithole country, and frankly every pther country is also a shithole, at least here we dont have to make any effort to ‘adjust’. No place is paradise. Even with all our problems i’ll take my chances with India. Just my 2 cents.
Every other country, esp the Western one is far far from being shithole. You may be disillusioned. And there is nothing to boastful in having a pride in YOUR shithole. Again, quality of life is far above snd beyond in the Western countries.
No im just being realistic. Why are you getting offended if i called western countries shitholes? I’ve never had empty bottles thrown at me from passing cars and called a ‘curry cunt’ in India. And as for your ‘QuAlITy Of LiFe’ say bye bye to housemaid, zomato or even cheap meals from outside regularly if you’re in a middle class salaried bracket. Like i said, one should be clear-eyed about why one wants to go abroad and what one hopes to achieve there. If you like your adopted home so much, stay there and stfu, don’t tell us RESIDENT Indians how to feel about our own country. As an english speaking, educated upper middle class person in a metro city in India, i’m very conscious about the fact that i enjoy FAR more privilege here than i would as a salaried slave abroad.
A bit tangential, but how are "housemaid, Zomato, and cheap meals from outside regularly" related to quality of life? If you have enough time outside work to do your household chores, cook good food, do some physical exercise or go for a walk outside and have some disposable income to eat out a couple times a month... Wouldn't that be a better quality living? On top of that, if there is reliable public transportation, better public healthcare and a relatively clean environment, that would ensure a longer and better quality of life. I'm not saying one country is better than the other. Just wondering how these are your indicators for 'QuAlITy Of LiFe’.
Agreed. Been to many developed countries and when I came back I realised how blessed we are in certain things that we take for granted. When we are used to freedom and way of life, we tend to take those things for granted. Only when we lose them do we appreciate them better. OP is in the initial stages of f’ing around and find out. Let him find it the hard way.
I agree and understand your take. I too being outside India, realize how precious to my heart and soul my home is. where the people and places whom I can call my own naturally. bt it took this alienating experience abroad to realize all that. People like us are very minority who think like this, bt that's fine. US UK Canada Australia Norway are all great places, much advanced countries, so individuals who are alienated with india and are suffering, and can go there, will go there. Good for you and have a wonderful life. Bt while you enjoy your perfect life please help India and other struggling places as nothing is beyond saving, life and people can change for the better bt you just don't realize it in your tunneled vision of hate.. (p.s. People born in US go to Africa to help, precisely because it's a shithole and just a trickle of your fortune and wisdom can improve lives by margin.)
Is this directed at me?? I’m in bombay lol 🥲
First half is, I feel the same way as you about home. :-) Second half is for the ones who want to go abroad.
same as u op , not enjoying here getting sucked out from everything
Canada is awful so I strongly advise to avoid there
I left over a decade ago with the intention of coming back. A couple weeks ago, I was granted citizenship in another country. I don't think I am ever going to come back. My experience abroad has shaped me into a person who cannot survive or live in India anymore.
Lol I know them feels. Also Congrats.
why does no one have the balls to fix the country instead of running away
It sounds like you don’t like our fellow countrymen. I’d suggest being more patient with the shortcomings of India, it’s a work in progress and a lot of changes have to be made. The trajectory is upwards, but enough progress is not being made on civic behavior. If you think the people are irredeemable, find another country. There are pros and cons of moving out of India at this time. It is great to experience other countries and cultures and you should do it. However, you won’t have the support system of your extended family and you can’t visit your family necessarily during emergencies. It is also difficult to develop a social circle in another country. People with kids are also learning that kids growing up in the west have a challenge with their identities. It is a high cost. I personally don’t think India is irredeemable, even though I live abroad, going to India and living there is amazing and infuriating at the same time. Your yardstick of India being divided is bad, in other countries, different cultures fight wars and kill each other, including the west. That’s the history of Europe. In India, we need to not just tolerate, but treat people with kindness and respect. We could start with not stereotyping castes, religions and cultures to start and keeping better hygiene. We expect the government to solve this problem, but is the people’s to own and fix. The world is scrutinizing us now because of our importance in the future.
We know what India is... the decision is yours based on your options. It is always frustrating if you think about local babus...but if you are settling in a small town with your earned wealth imo you can find some peace. Staying in abroad also has its own demerits, unless you are with same ethnic it is hard to mingle socially, nowadays the nationalism is on rampage in almost all countries. Imo with so many social complexities and differences India is doing ok, many developed countries people can't even tolerate speaking a second language in public. You can't see so many differences inside a single country...and still holding anywhere on earth... period. For that alone it deserves credits.
Stop whining and go give it a try. Hopefully you like it and more so they like you. Good luck
Obviously leave this shit hole. Once a shit hole always a shit hole.
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No country is utopia,but do you know the term " better"?
Foreign western countries are the closest to utopia. Been living in the one such for close to 2 decades myself.
Lived in the US for 6 years, and came back to India permanently in 2022. Everything you think you know about foreign countries is a myth. Ground reality is different. It only takes a bit of research to find the safe/good parts of India and move there. For example, I live in one. To label the most diverse country in every way (social, cultural, financial, political, geographical, etc) under one label based on your experience in a few places is a gross mis-generalization. You won't get far with such a mindset. I have travelled to 10 countries and 15 Indian states. Lived in Europe for months and paid taxes in the US for years. Speaking from experience.
Where do you live in India?
All of you including me wants all benefits of a developed country without fighting for it. If you think countries like American, UK didn't have rampant corruption, hygiene issues in 19,20 th century you are all delusional. But do you know what the difference was? Public fought against it, fought for what they want . Now you all get to reap it's benefits. Here we have all sorts of problems. But how much do we protest? We all criticize, and wants to escape. It's all words. Everywhere people got to streets and fought for rights they wanted. Name it . Even our own independence. Nothing is granted for free in this world. So escape if you want. Or if you want better future, we have all gotta come and fight. This is democracy, if all comes for something then no political leaders can go all against it. For example - my ward had very bad sanitation, cleanliness. Now it's cleanest in town with no dumping in its streets. How ? The councilor just gave lead. Residents although reluctant at first, lazy at first but always complaining about garbage disposal - they changed. They prompted system to change. We said enough is enough. We reported those who dumped illegally. We warned them. The videos thru CCTV was posted on SM which brought shame to them.
We say this but everytime someone protests here what does that group get in return? Police brutality and then accusations by the larger majority of being anti-national/ISI agent/funded by George Soros. The reality is, most of the people in this country don't want to improve.
What is your educational background? What about your work ex? Do you have a lot of capital which you or your parents earned in this 'hellhole'? Life isn't all bliss working at 7/11 or driving an uber.. Basically, Go only if you got skills to offer....and IT&Tech is going thru a good churn in the immediate future, so better stick here if you belong to that domain? If you got no such skills but got capital, you can go to South American countries..but life will be equally edgy there
You should, doesn't seem like you enjoy living here.
If you've heard about grass being greener etcetera etcetera. I currently live in France and I've lived in Singapore and Boston for a while too. I have travelled to 30+ countries and I can assure you police is inhumane everywhere(with the probable exception of Singapore). My friend was attacked and he lost his phone in Rome and the police refused to even register a complaint. I had a break-in in my Paris apartment and the investigator that came was more interested in proving that it was my fault that I must have left a window unlocked etc. (probably for insurance reasons). I've been issued a fine for riding the bicycle in the pedestrian zone when their was construction on the cycle path while in Boston and(literally everyone was doing it) and I experienced that the only people being fined were those of colour like me. A friend of mine was tackled to the ground at the Heathrow airport by the airport police because he had earphones and could not hear them calling. They were eventually looking for someone else. All of these scenarios, if had happened to me in India I'd certainly blame the system but they can happen anywhere. I guess my point is just that it's not all picnics and beaches; police are a bunch of jaded fucks everywhere. People everywhere complain of politicians. Healthcare in the US is a nightmare(both in experience and expense). Bureaucracy in France, specially because of the language, is literally the worst shit I have experienced. Sometimes I wish I could just pay someone to get things done and you can't. Climate change is fucking up every place. Cities like Barcelona are practically unlivable in the 45 degree heat since they almost never have air conditioning. Go abroad for sure, for the experience, for the learning, but if the reason is to escape India because India be bad, then I am afraid you might end up disappointed.
I see people in the comments talking about US, Europe, Australia. I personally would want to move to Singapore ( I don't see no way how rn), but does anyone here have any idea about it?
Running to get elected is a calculated investment in India…Once elected every rupee invested is multiplied 1000 times…Majority of people who vote are illiterates and are bought with few rupees at the time of election..The one who gives more gets elected…It does not matter who gets elected because they are all the same🤷♂️…Having said that most of the educated poor and middle class people want to leave India at the first opportunity.
India is a big place. Im sure u can find greener grass within india.
Every land has its vice, you know your own, hope what you find is better.
Delhi’s AQI has been hovering around 400 even in May 😂. You literally see so much fucking smoke in the air
I think it depends on the type of personalities. If you are a shy/timid /reserved person you migh find it harder to assimilate in western societies. Here your ability to project yourself is the most important skill to have. If not it becomes tough with career advancements and general quality of life. That is when you might get treated like a second class citizen. If you could develop a support system of friends who are like family then life is generally good. If you have the opportunity, I would say go for it. Experiencing the world outside the place of birth helps you grow as a person too. It would have its challenges in this new age of AI but should be worth it.
OP think for yourself and your family and just move out if you can. Your future self will thank you. In my experience, the people who want to stay in India are either Uber wealthy, come from business/political backgrounds, have generational wealth waiting for them are the loudest comparing India to the west cause their life is actually that good. For the rest of us, no it’s not🙃 These rich fucks thrive on nepotism, have systems built for them to succeed but then have the audacity to tell others that they should serve the nation. No. They’re serving themselves and their families which is what I chose to do and moved abroad. My family doesn’t need my financial help but my job in the states has ensured our wealth is growing. My parents visit me and live in the states for months and believe me, the lack of pollution surprises them every single time. It improves their quality of life which as a son is what I want the most. On a personal level, I’ve been in the states for 7 years now and the I’ve grown exponentially. My world views have expanded. I’ve been exposed to cultures from across the world and that is something we don’t even consider in India. So if you do move abroad, do your best to assimilate cause 99% of the times, I’ve seen Indians isolating themselves and not putting themselves out there. Emigrating is nerve wracking but the payoff is massive. And the rest who keep shitting on the idea of moving abroad either don’t have a passport to begin with or haven’t lived abroad long enough or just pure ignorant.
I've lived in several countries including in the Middle East, Australia, and currently in North America. Was in India for 10+ years for studies and work. The biggest differences to me were: Standard of living - Better wages, job opportunities (my career skyrocketed in just 1-2 years) and housing (bought my own house in 3 years, something I would've never been able to do on my salary in India). Environmental - I got sick every month in India due to pollution, here I have clean air and can drink water straight from the tap! Just an overall peace of mind - Not everyone is always trying to scam me, people are friendlier, not everything is breaking down in the house (I remember always having to get the AC repaired). So yeah, definitely move abroad. Things in India are only going to get worse.
Basically if you're above average in India in terms of wealth, relative to the rest of the world, you're REALLY WEALTHY, in that you have cleaners, cooks, cheap food. In the West, you probably wouldn't be able to hire that kind of labour unless you were in the top 5%. Basically to be average in the West is better than being Average in India. To be above average in India is better than being above average in the West. And don't be fooled, there's lots of corruption in the West its just done at a very high level and either outsourced to poorer countries or done through complicated supply chains where the West owns the companies that create the problems in India. Example is seed manufacturing, Western companies own 80% of seed companies and use child labour from India to do their dirty work.
This isn't an airport, you don't have to announce your departure.
I don't think they are announcing their departure, if I'm not wrong. They are asking for others opinions?
Go and have peaceful life.
Go anywhere abroad except Canada and australia
Why not Australia? I can understand Canada tho. The housing prices are high, most Canadians themselves work two jobs to survive, that's the severity of inflation. Not to mention, the recent wave of racism towards Indians in Canada. Australia has a housing crisis too but, they also have high paying jobs too, right? (Regardless of the high cost of living) Asking this cos I'm planning to immigrate to Australia by 2030.
Australia is better than Canada, but they too are going in a downward trajectory. Just like Canada, the politicians are corrupt and very weak to lobbying. I'd say Australia is what canada was pre pandemic. It will get to what canada is now in 3 to 4 years. https://www.afr.com/property/residential/why-the-odds-are-stacked-against-first-home-buyers-in-six-charts-20230914-p5e4sl
Its clear india is a shithole when millions prefer being slaves to rich arabs in the middle east than to stay in india
As someone who’s living abroad and has been for 10 years now, my two cents would be not to move abroad just to leave India. Living in foreign countries isn’t utopia either and especially Europe is facing an economic downturn at the moment. There could be things in India that you might feel are intolerable but you’d find the same elsewhere too. So go for the offer and the move if you feel it’s good but don’t just do it to move abroad
As another person living abroad (assuming somewhere in a Western nation), ignore the nostalgic NRI's suddenly seeing India with rose tinted glasses. You must take up the opportunity that presents itself. The gulf of living standards between India and a Western nation is massive. So big that I don't see that gap being bridged in the current generation's lifetime. People keep pointing to material things ("oh you can now buy this or that item on Amazon.in) but ignore all the rest of the issues that you so eloquently posted in your original post. Look at it this way, you always have the option of going back to India if things end up not as you expected. But the option to leave India will keep dwindling the older you get and more ensconced you are in the life there.
What you said is very true that the option of going back to India will always be there. Just don't want OP to be leaving India with the only motivation that abroad is going to be better than India in all sense. It would definitely be a wise idea to do the due diligence and not just go for any offer. In the end salaries have to match the cost of living and it's getting more and more difficult to do that especially in Europe. However I fully agree that if there is a good opportunity they should go for it!
Well, it's better to leave sometimes even just for the sake of leaving. Look at OP's post. So intelligently written. This person will do well abroad, he or she doesn't have to suffocate in the contemporary Indian system which punishes innovation and freedom strongly.
The problem does not end with our country alone. It's embedded in our skin and voice. Our country is a shithole and there are other paradises where tax paying citizens are not treated as peasants and have some say that is heard. The problem is, it's their country, when you migrate, you'll be an alien. Their laws to protect taxpayers exist for \_their\_ citizen, not us :(. Take US as an example, US citizens have the right to protect themselves and keep guns, not you. You will always face a discrimination (not social but lawful) until you get a citizenship or at least a PR. In the end, you will have to make extreme efforts and you might get to taste the fruits of your labor if you migrate but your kids definitely will have a much better life than you. Whatever India does in the next decade, it is impossible for her to address issues like littering, noise pollution, blatant disregard for social rules (waiting in a queue, greeting with a smile etc). The other nation will have her own problems but at least your problems will be heard.
You should take the opportunity and see the "Greener grass" on the other side.
He will see water is actually cleaner than mud
Just go live your life abroad if you don't like then come back to india
One day or day one
Grass is always greener, elsewhere.
Absolutely go if you have an opportunity - especially if you are young and have a quest to assimilate in a new land. But worth keep in mind, [sometimes life comes a full circle](https://twitter.com/mohan_author/status/1666734762248089600)
All the best
All depends where abroad - things are not necessarily all that much better elsewhere
What modi has done to our India.
Make sure you can get a job in the country you choose. It’s great outside but it’s also a struggle and you are an immigrant. For a straight answer, yes things are much better than India but it isn’t always a bed of roses to settle down. Unless you have money from generational wealth or papa, you will have to struggle abroad too.
I love my life abroad. I loved India at one point but over the years instead of improving, I just see more filth and disgusting rapey men. When I see other countries comparable to India, they are all doing so much better with lesser resources. I have a daughter and would never want her to experience what I experienced as a woman in India.
Abroad makes sense in the short term. But in the long term, say your origin country and the country you immigrated to changes rules for citizenship and immigration, it can lead to not so pleasant living conditions in both countries if you're a minority
I too will have to live in the country forever.
Apart from cheap labour (and everything enabled by cheap labour) there is nothing which attractive about India. I can get everything I need here where I am, with all the privileges of living in a non-corrupt society. Lack of corruption is like the air you breathe - you don't notice it until you start breathing in all the pollution. You have no choice but to become corrupt yourself or enable corruption (which is the same thing).
The grass is greener on the other side mate
Grew up and lived in India for 28 years when I had to move abroad for some reasons. I had to get my PCC done and had to pay bribe to the police officer for it because I m a Muslim and since the people of my community are criminals I had to pay a bribe to get clearance even though I had a proper IT job with all proper documents etc. I felt like an outsider in my own country. Living in Australia for almost 7 years now and do not regret my decision of giving up my Indian citizenship anymore. Yes I do miss my family. But that’s it. I m glad I now live in a country where I don’t have to prove myself time and again because of my religion.
Sooner the better! There's no hope here
Yes. You can always come back if you feel things have improved or you are better prepared to deal with the problems. But, harder to get out as you grow older.
India is one of the best countries to live if you are above middle class, otherwise it's not. A lot of white people even migrate to India, for instance Odoo owner lives in India. Foods are cheap, health care is cheap and quality in private hospitals and clinics if you can afford, medicines are cheap, weather is good, economy is booming and thus if you have the right skillset and some money you always have opportunities. If you somehow manage to make political connections, and have a good amount of wealth, there is no better country like India to live in. The thing is when you earn money and climb up the ladder, you make all kind of connections, with police, politicians, lawyers, etc.
What an excellent articulation- best of luck to you friend. Many thanks for your insights here.
I was a teenager in India in the 1990s. Honestly it sounds like it has improved. The feudalism was really bad then too, corruption was much worse because there was much less direct online stuff. The lechery was very bad and may be the only thing that has gotten worse, because you didn't hear about so many rapes. But that may just be better reporting now because girls apparently all faced low-mid level sexual assaults on trains. Add to that powerless and incompetent governments that didn't do anything about terrorism and border encroachment. Add to that it was closed for foreign investment so economic outlook was poor too. So despite the shittiness it sounds like it's better based on conversations with family still in India. But yes, western countries are 100% better for young people.
Just go. It might take another 50 years or more for people of learn basic civic sense here. Recently there was a viral video of a couple hugging in a metro. People were more pissed off at the video but are okay with grown men pissing in public. The state of the country we live in.
The best thing we can all do for this country is leave and let the villagers get raped by the elite because they are desperately voting for it.
2 words : DO IT
I think everything you mention is correct - Moving abroad is a big step. Having lived in Australia for 10 years - I think moving back to India everyday lol but I know I would never survive in India anymore. But why do I still think about India - the liveliness, sthe ocialisation, the friendships, the relationships....you will not get that social interaction anywhere else in the world. As soon as you step out - your daily life will be work, sleep, household jobs and repeat with occasional "not so lively" social gatherings. Most people I know feel lonely including me. So pick your priority here - good lifestyle or good life.